Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Fearful Avoidant + Dismissive Avoidant: The Most Painful Relationship Dynamic | E11

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Fearful Avoidant + Dismissive Avoidant: The Most Painful Relationship Dynamic | E11 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

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  Speaker 1: People aren't random. They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
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  Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
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  Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
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  Speaker 1: don't even realize exist. Because once you see the pattern,
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  Speaker 1: you can finally change it.
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  Speaker 2: I'm Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Sarah Hensley.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm Raina Butcher.
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  Speaker 1: You think your life is random. It's not.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Dr. Sarah Hensley Show. Download this episode.
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  Speaker 1: only thing that people care about.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, it keeps us going.
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  Speaker 1: Hi, friend.
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  Speaker 2: Hey, look at us. We're matching, matching. Look at us.
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  Speaker 2: Again today.
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  Speaker 1: So it's really scary. All four of us. So our
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  Speaker 1: husbands are always here when we record. Of course, Raina's
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  Speaker 1: husband is our awesome podcast manager and producer. And my
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  Speaker 1: husband just kind of helps out with tech stuff. And
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  Speaker 1: if we need an extra body doing a lot of
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  Speaker 1: different things, he's there. And we are all matching today.
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  Speaker 1: We all match.
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  Speaker 2: We're all in our, like, fall colors.
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  Speaker 1: Like, fullest green, black, or brown. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Like, it's starting to get scary. Yeah, this is what
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  Speaker 2: happens when you're around each other so much.
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  Speaker 1: You know how they say you start to look like
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  Speaker 1: your spouse? Like, we start to look like– all four
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  Speaker 1: of us are together so much, we start to look
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  Speaker 1: like each other.
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  Speaker 2: Yep. So I want to get into it because this
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  Speaker 2: is a really, really painful relationship dynamic. That you see
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  Speaker 2: more than any other relationship dynamic. Correct.
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  Speaker 1: It literally keeps me in business.
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  Speaker 2: And which one is that?
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  Speaker 1: That is the fearful avoidant person with the dismissive avoidant person.
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  Speaker 1: And this is why it's so important to differentiate the
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  Speaker 1: two type of avoidant attachments. Because they are a crap
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  Speaker 1: show when they get together.
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  Speaker 2: And very different.
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  Speaker 1: And very, very different. The fearful avoidant, they always... respond
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  Speaker 1: in opposition to partners. So if you need to go
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  Speaker 1: rewatch or listen to the Fearful Avoidant podcast we did
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  Speaker 1: at the beginning of season three, go listen to it
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  Speaker 1: where we do a deep dive on both. I think
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  Speaker 1: episode one's The Dismissive Avoidant. Episode two is The Fearful Avoidant.
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  Speaker 1: So deep dive those episodes so you have a lot
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  Speaker 1: more background on these attachment styles. But when they get together,
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  Speaker 1: holy shnikes. It's like the perfect storm. It is the
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  Speaker 1: perfect storm. And what is interesting is that Like I
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  Speaker 1: said in, I think it was the last episode or
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  Speaker 1: the episode before that, attachment doesn't just predict how you
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  Speaker 1: will behave. It predicts who you choose.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: So in the beginning, they're like magnetically attracted to each
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  Speaker 1: other because we are attracted, if we have insecure suppressed traits,
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  Speaker 1: we are attracted to the person who exhibits those traits
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  Speaker 1: that we suppress within ourselves. Because evolutionarily, we have a
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  Speaker 1: drive to give our potential children, even if we're done
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  Speaker 1: having children... The mind doesn't necessarily know that. The best
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  Speaker 1: chance of survival by having this diverse set of traits.
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  Speaker 1: So if we're suppressing traits, we then automatically sort of
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  Speaker 1: become attracted to them in the beginning to people who
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  Speaker 1: have those traits that we're suppressing. So like the dismissive
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  Speaker 1: avoidant suppresses their emotions and their vulnerability. And they are
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  Speaker 1: very sort of even keel when it comes to their emotions.
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  Speaker 1: A lot of dismissive avoidant people will describe themselves as
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  Speaker 1: not easily upset. handle stress well, let things roll off
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  Speaker 1: their back, take life in stride.
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  Speaker 2: Big overachievers. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And although those can be good characteristics, if you apply
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  Speaker 1: those characteristics with an intimacy and you never are available
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  Speaker 1: for vulnerable conversations, or you don't let your emotions guide
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  Speaker 1: you appropriately, then you're sort of suppressing your feelings for
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  Speaker 1: your partner too over time. So you sort of check
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  Speaker 1: out and fall out of love, if you will, in
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  Speaker 1: a way. And so dismissive avoidance suppress their vulnerability. Well,
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  Speaker 1: then they meet the fearful avoidant who has this deep,
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  Speaker 1: complex inner world and they're beautifully vulnerable and they can
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  Speaker 1: show their depth in the beginning. So the DA is
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  Speaker 1: very attracted to sort of this complex inner emotional world
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  Speaker 1: of the fearful avoidant. They can show their depth. They
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  Speaker 1: can be really attuned. And when they're a little more
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  Speaker 1: regulated around their depth in the beginning, the DA is
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  Speaker 1: just like, wow, right? Like this is so cool and
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  Speaker 1: dynamic and I'm so attracted to them. But then it
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  Speaker 1: starts to trigger them after a while in the relationship.
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  Speaker 1: Once commitment and expectation increase, when that emotional complexity and
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  Speaker 1: depth is applied to them asking for their needs or
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  Speaker 1: creating some kind of conflict, which because they're emotional can
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  Speaker 1: make the fearful avoidant over-criticize, then the DA wants nothing
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  Speaker 1: to do with it. Then they're defensive and withdrawn and
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  Speaker 1: they start to really shut down and pull away. So
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  Speaker 1: let's just sort of talk about this conflict cycle and
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  Speaker 1: how it shows up. And let me also say then
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  Speaker 1: the fearful avoidant is drawn to the dismissive avoidant because
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  Speaker 1: they're so complex.
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  Speaker 2: Yep. They seem so grounded and together.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. They seem grounded and with it and like achieving
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  Speaker 1: and together. And that stability is so attractive to them,
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  Speaker 1: especially if they've just gotten out of a relationship with
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  Speaker 1: another fearful avoidant or a narcissist who has been very
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  Speaker 1: reactive and unstable.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Then they're like, Oh, this, this person is peaceful and
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  Speaker 1: they're safe.
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  Speaker 2: Yep.
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  Speaker 1: And then the fearful avoidant is so attracted to the
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  Speaker 1: dismissive avoidant in the beginning because they're so calm and
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  Speaker 1: stoic and the chaos of the fearful avoidant's inner world
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  Speaker 1: is sort of soothed by the DA's calm and stability.
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  Speaker 2: They're grounded and put together and they're successful.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. And then that stoicism... Again, when it comes to
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  Speaker 1: trying to be vulnerable and give intimacy and resolve conflict,
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  Speaker 1: it starts to really get on their nerves.
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  Speaker 2: Yep.
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  Speaker 1: And it's like, okay.
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  Speaker 2: I can't even get in touch with them.
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  Speaker 1: I can't get to you.
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  Speaker 2: They're giving me nothing.
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  Speaker 1: And so in the beginning of the FADA relationship, there
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  Speaker 1: is a ton of magnetic chemistry for that reason.
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  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 1: And then when those traits persist after the dopamine and
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  Speaker 1: serotonin and oxytocin and vasopressin dumps that you get in
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  Speaker 1: the beginning of a relationship have worn off and you're
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  Speaker 1: not protected by the honeymoon phase brain chemistry is when
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  Speaker 1: we really start to see things go south. Because the
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  Speaker 1: fearful avoidant will take the anxious space in the relationship.
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  Speaker 1: They're going to oppose the dismissive avoidant. avoidance because they
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  Speaker 1: will always act in opposition to partners. So the fearful
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  Speaker 1: avoidant is with someone more avoidant than them. It will
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  Speaker 1: make them anxious. And that's why a lot of fearful
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  Speaker 1: avoidance come to my practice saying, I'm the anxious pursuer.
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  Speaker 1: I'm an anxious preoccupied. And I'm like, oh gosh, who
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  Speaker 1: on the internet have you been listening to? Because I
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  Speaker 1: can talk to you for three seconds and I already
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  Speaker 1: know that is not the case. You are not fawning
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  Speaker 1: in conflict. You are not bending over backwards. You are
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  Speaker 1: standing up for yourself. You are, you know, You have
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  Speaker 1: a fight instinct. You have a fight instinct. You're a
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  Speaker 1: little overcritical. You have a lot of trauma in your history. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So anywho, so the FA feels like the DA is
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  Speaker 1: not meeting their needs because the DA becomes withdrawn. They
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  Speaker 1: become people pleasing to everybody but their relationship partner. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Why?
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  Speaker 1: Why?
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  Speaker 2: Why do they do that?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a really good question and we get that
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  Speaker 1: a lot in our lives and in our webinars. It's
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  Speaker 1: because it feels safe to have those connections because they're
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  Speaker 1: not deep emotional connections. And oftentimes they were praised in
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  Speaker 1: their childhood for responsibility and for achievement. So if they
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  Speaker 1: can show that side of themselves to other people, then
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  Speaker 1: they feel like I'm accomplished and other people think I'm
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  Speaker 1: important and other people think I'm competent, but they don't
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  Speaker 1: wanna show that side of themselves to their partner. Now,
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  Speaker 1: some DAs will be very acts of service oriented. Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 1: But they miss the vulnerability piece. Right.
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  Speaker 2: So even though they offer it to their partner, it's
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  Speaker 2: simply just not enough.
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  Speaker 1: It's not enough.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Even though they think it should be. They're like, well,
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  Speaker 2: I provide. When I was coaching, I remember DAs were
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  Speaker 2: always the hardest. They were always the toughest. They are.
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  Speaker 2: Because you could tell, especially when it was one-on-one, you
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  Speaker 2: could tell that they really, the DAs that I specifically coached,
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  Speaker 2: they really wanted to learn. They really wanted to grasp it.
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  Speaker 2: But they were just sort of Out of touch.
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  Speaker 1: How do you describe water to someone that's never seen, touched,
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  Speaker 1: drank water?
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  Speaker 2: You can't.
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  Speaker 1: That is what describing emotional vulnerability is to a DA.
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  Speaker 1: They don't have any concept of it. And so when
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  Speaker 1: I work with them, we really have to start with
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  Speaker 1: the fundamentals. And we literally build their brain chemistry, neuron
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  Speaker 1: by neuron, around emotional vulnerability. Because if that programming... was
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  Speaker 1: shut down so early in childhood, your brain prunes what
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  Speaker 1: it does not use. So connections around vulnerability, around accessing
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  Speaker 1: your own emotions, understanding your own emotions, putting words to
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  Speaker 1: your own emotions, those connections are not there. You are
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  Speaker 1: trying to squeeze from a dry well. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: how else to tell people that. And it's so important
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  Speaker 1: in this conflict cycle because that is what the fearful
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  Speaker 1: avoidant ends up trying to do to the dismissive avoidant.
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  Speaker 1: The fearful avoidant feels like they're not meeting my needs.
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  Speaker 1: They're people pleasing outside of the relationship. They're way into
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  Speaker 1: their work and their hobbies. They're not making enough connection.
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  Speaker 1: They're not being vulnerable. They won't repair conflict. And then
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  Speaker 1: they try to describe to them, this is what I
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  Speaker 1: need and here's what it looks like. I need you
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  Speaker 1: to be vulnerable. I need you to be close.
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  Speaker 2: And they're like, what? You're speaking a foreign language to
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  Speaker 2: me right now.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like, I am close.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Like as in physical. I'm right here. Like I'm sitting
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  Speaker 1: next to you, right? Like their brain can't comprehend that
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  Speaker 1: there's another type of closeness with someone.
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  Speaker 2: So how long does it take to build the neuron
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  Speaker 2: by neuron by neuron?
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  Speaker 1: It depends, right? So we do have mild or dismissive
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  Speaker 1: avoidance that have some capability for it. It's just minimal.
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  Speaker 1: And that we have some that it's completely outside of
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  Speaker 1: their wheelhouse. Like they have zero. The emotional neglect and
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  Speaker 1: dismissal was so profound in their childhood that they had
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  Speaker 1: no exposure to it. And of course, you don't really
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  Speaker 1: expose yourself that way in business. Business is the opposite.
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  Speaker 1: And a lot of DAs are very successful in business
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  Speaker 1: or in the corporate world. Mm-hmm. And so it's benefited
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  Speaker 1: them to be DA in those environments, right? Where I
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  Speaker 1: can think logically and take the emotion out of it
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  Speaker 1: and just make these hardcore decisions without worrying about the
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  Speaker 1: impact on someone else's emotions. And that's benefited them. They
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  Speaker 1: can be kind of ruthless in business. I mean, oh man,
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  Speaker 1: I coach a lot of Fortune 500 CEOs and People
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  Speaker 1: that have been extremely successful and they're like, I don't
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  Speaker 1: want to lose this edge.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm like, you won't use it. It'll be like
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  Speaker 1: a light switch you can turn off and on.
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  Speaker 2: And then it ends up hurting the relationship.
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Because again, the partner's like, wow, you know, you show
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  Speaker 2: up so well in every other aspect of your life.
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  Speaker 2: Why can't you do that here?
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It's because that's what holds the most danger in their
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  Speaker 1: nervous system. So the FA goes to the DA, usually
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  Speaker 1: too emotional, usually very, or maybe appropriately emotional. Yeah. Sometimes
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  Speaker 1: too critical. And emotionality and criticism are going to be
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  Speaker 1: two huge triggers for the dismissive avoidant.
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  Speaker 2: What's an example, like a real-life example that you've seen
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  Speaker 2: where the FAA will go for the affection and then
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  Speaker 2: what the DA actually says in return or does in return?
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  Speaker 1: And so do you mean they're asking for affection or
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  Speaker 1: they just try to initiate affection?
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  Speaker 2: They try to initiate it. Just give a real-life example.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, so an FAA– might be like, hey, can we,
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  Speaker 1: you know, do you want to like have some alone
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  Speaker 1: time tonight? Well, it triggers the DA because the expectation
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  Speaker 1: is immediate tonight, right? And they don't, they might've already
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  Speaker 1: kind of planned out their evening.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Because they're always sort of self-focused, not in a malicious,
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  Speaker 1: selfish way, but because their brain is wired towards self
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  Speaker 1: and self-direction. So they might've in their mind already like
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  Speaker 1: I'm already doing something. Like I was going to work
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  Speaker 1: on XYZ project or I was going to hang out
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  Speaker 1: with XYZ friend or I was going to work or
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  Speaker 1: I was going to do something. So they're automatically sort
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  Speaker 1: of triggered like you're asking for my independent time. And
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  Speaker 1: I've already booked that. I'm already occupied.
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  Speaker 2: Right?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And to them, that trigger of you're taking away
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  Speaker 1: my independence is so, so big for them. But to
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  Speaker 1: the FA, it's just like we're in a relationship.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you want to prioritize me and like let
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  Speaker 1: those other plans go for me? You're a romantic partner,
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  Speaker 1: but they see it flip-flopped. My independence is a priority
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  Speaker 1: and you have to come second in my life. And
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  Speaker 1: they may not consciously realize that, but that is the
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  Speaker 1: script that they are playing in their actions. So they
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  Speaker 1: will say something like, well, I already, you know, committed
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  Speaker 1: to so-and-so thing. And then the FA immediately feels betrayed.
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  Speaker 1: Like why aren't, why wouldn't you just cancel those plans
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  Speaker 1: to be with me? I should be your number one.
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  Speaker 2: And then they get overcritical. Right.
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  Speaker 1: And then they get overcritical and angry and upset. And
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  Speaker 1: the DA, if they're very mild, they might sense that
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  Speaker 1: sort of, oh, crap, they're mad at me. Or if
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  Speaker 1: they're a really sort of far on the spectrum, like
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  Speaker 1: hardcore DA, then they're going to get really defensive or
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  Speaker 1: not see it at all.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Just be like, I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: And then it just pushes them further away. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And they're going to always choose to lean into their
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  Speaker 1: independence instead of their partner. And so they're going to say,
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  Speaker 1: I have X, Y, Z. They're not going to give
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  Speaker 1: up their plans.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And the FA partner just has no– like to them,
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  Speaker 1: in that space of the relationship where they're the more
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  Speaker 1: anxious one, there's no excuse for that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And they just feel like you're being selfish. You're prioritizing
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  Speaker 1: everything else but me. When if the FA would have
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  Speaker 1: said something like, hey, can we make time for each
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  Speaker 1: other later in the week? I'd really love to have
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  Speaker 1: some alone time with you. Can we work on that?
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  Speaker 1: Then the DA is going to be like, okay, let
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: me– I got options here. Let me see how I
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  Speaker 1: can kind of fit this into my schedule, right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Which I get it. If you're the FA partner, having
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  Speaker 1: to be fit into someone's schedule feels terrible to you.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't feel good.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like, what are your priorities, dude?
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  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah. Or do debt.
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  Speaker 1: Or do debt, for sure. And they're going to feel
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  Speaker 1: betrayed and abandoned and not chosen and all the things.
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  Speaker 1: And then they're going to be in a bad mood.
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  Speaker 1: And then the DA is going to want nothing to
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  Speaker 1: do with you if you're in that bad mood. Because
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  Speaker 1: they just feel like, well, if that bothers you, go
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  Speaker 1: away and deal with it. And then come back when
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  Speaker 1: you're happy. What is your problem? And then the FA
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  Speaker 1: is going to be like, if you really loved me,
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  Speaker 1: you would choose me. And then if I'm upset about this,
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  Speaker 1: you should stay here and try to figure me out
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  Speaker 1: and try to work through this so that we can
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  Speaker 1: get on the same page and this doesn't happen again.
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  Speaker 2: Gosh, it's a vicious cycle. Right?
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  Speaker 1: And that's just one of a million types of ways
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  Speaker 1: an argument can be initiated between a fearful and a dismissive.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so many scenarios.
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  Speaker 1: And then the dismissive is going to pull away and
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  Speaker 1: kind of shut down and not leave room for any repair.
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  Speaker 1: And then the FA, if they continue to go back
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  Speaker 1: and try to bring up the problem- They're going to
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  Speaker 1: get the same cycle. And then when the FA reaches
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  Speaker 1: a state of hopelessness, they're going to shut down. And
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  Speaker 1: then we're going to have two really disconnected people that
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  Speaker 1: are kind of playing chicken.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and roommates.
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  Speaker 1: They're just roommates. Who's going to introduce connection again?
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  Speaker 2: Or the D word.
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  Speaker 1: Right, or the D word. And if connection is introduced,
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  Speaker 1: it's generally going to be let's just pick up and
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  Speaker 1: pretend like that didn't happen. So conflict chronically goes unresolved.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, sounds exhausting. And the resentment, the resentment that builds
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  Speaker 2: from that just, and both of.
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  Speaker 1: Them build resentment because the DA builds resentment because their
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  Speaker 1: number one trigger is criticism. And so they're going to
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  Speaker 1: feel like you're constantly attacking me. You're constantly criticizing me.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Nothing I ever do is enough for you. I constantly
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: feel like I'm a failure. Why even try? Cause it's
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: not going to be enough. If I do try to
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: repair or say something, you're just going to get more
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: mad at me. So why would I come into that conversation?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: And then the FA is like, you don't even care.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: You put in no effort. You don't see my needs.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: You don't try to figure me out. You don't prioritize me.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: And you won't work it out when there is conflict.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: So you give me no option.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: You can see why this dynamic is the most prevalent
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: that you see because that creates so much distance. What
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: you just explained creates so much distance that there's no connection.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: It's just like hate.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: The need for the words. It's like, it would feel
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: like so much hate.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. And then you want to hear something wild.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Like this is wild.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: So many times the DA finally gets it. Like, because
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: the FA has been like, I'm divorcing you or something
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: like that. And then the DA is like, okay, like,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: let me dig into this. I'm willing to hear you out.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: They figure out attachment. They're like, holy crap, I'm a DA.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I can't believe I've caused all this pain. I do
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: want to fix it. I do want to work on myself.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: And you know what the FA says?
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I'm done.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Too little, too late.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Yep. Too little, too late. Yeah.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: It feels very rebellious.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: They do. Because it's like, it's that FA, oh, you're
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: finally coming close to me. Well, now I can't take that,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: so I'm going to push you away.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Golly.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: It's It's insanity. Yeah. And I will literally look at–
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: it's usually the wife that's the F-A. Sometimes it's the husband.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I will look at them and I'm saying, you're finally
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: getting what you wanted, what you have begged for, what
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: you have pleaded for, what you have exhausted yourself for,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: what you have wasted years of your life waiting for,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: and you're literally going to push it away. You need
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: to look at yourself in that moment.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: If it was too little too late, then just leave.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Why are you sitting here? Because know what you want
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: to do is you actually really don't want to leave.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: You want to stay, but you want to torture them
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: and create them– you know, to be in this kind
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: of pain that you've been in. You want to even
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: the playing field.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Plus that FHAs, man. They're addicted to it.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: They're addicted to it. Right? And so it's like, oh, no,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: you want me now?
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: No. Yeah.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Forget you.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the FHA is addicted to that toxicity on such
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: a high level.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, right? So that fear of, oh, I'm not, it's
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: this subconscious fear that I might actually get the vulnerability
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: that I want. I don't know if I can handle that. Right?
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: And on top of it, it's the, well, you made
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: me in pain, so I have to make you in
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: pain because the playing field has to be level.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: And now I have my chance. You want something, I'm
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: going to hurt you in the ways that you've hurt
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: me all these years.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Gosh, I'm exhausted just talking about this. I mean, literally,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: I could not imagine being... I mean, I was. I've
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: done it. I was in a relationship like this where
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: it was like you could never be... on the same page. No.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: You never felt like you were on the same page.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: And some DA sort of toxic traits themselves, you can
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: never pin them down. You can never get them to
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: tell you how they really feel. They will hem-haw, jump
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: around it. I swear to goodness, the DA superpower is
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: you trying to ask them a pointed question about Like,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: do you want to be with me?
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: And they can deflect.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: And they can deflect in a way. The mental gymnastics,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: it's like Olympic level. They can somehow not give you
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: an answer to that.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And sometimes it's even through like wit and like
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: comedy that they'll deflect.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Like, okay, I've spent all this time with you.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: And that's what you're saying to me? Yeah. And you're like, wait,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: you didn't answer the question. Is it a yes? You
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: want to be with me? But they can't let themselves
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: be that vulnerable and commit because there's a part of
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: them that doesn't know. Or they will just say, I
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know what you want me to
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: say right now. I don't know. This doesn't feel good.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: I know I don't like fighting with you all the time.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, that's not an answer. Do you want
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: to be with me? Right. And they'll just say, I
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: don't know if I can give you what you need.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know what you want me to say right now.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: Or they will be silent or they will deflect in
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: some kind of crazy way. And you just want to...
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: bash your head against the wall as an FA. And
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: I recognize that I'm looking at it in this moment
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: through the FA bias. So if I try to switch
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: over and mentalize to the DA's perspective, it's like, you
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: are exhausting. You are always starting the same fight. You
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: are always bringing up the past because their blueprint truly
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: to their core believes you go deal with your feelings.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: I'll go deal with mine. The time we spend together
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: should be fun and you're making it exhausting. And this
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense to me. Because the way that
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: they deal with their emotions is to really just let
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: it go. Just let it go, dude. Just let it go.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Just let's have fun. Let's enjoy our time. Like, why
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: is this a problem?
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: And then the FA wants to beat the dead horse
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: and resolve, resolve, resolve.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: And of course you need resolution, right? Sure, yeah.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: That's how you create intimacy.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: But the way that they end up trying to approach
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: conflict resolution because of their exhaustion and their pain ends
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: up being... so unsafe to the DA's nervous system that
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: they just, it repels them. So that's why I love
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: my conflict resolution plan, the 111, because it gives such
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: guardrails around conflict that the DA can finally feel safe participating.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: And that's one thing I feel like a lot of
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: my couples will tell me when they finally get to
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: that point in the coaching journey. It's like, thank God
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: we have this plan.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Because we are finally resolving conflict. My DA is, because
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: DAs are rule followers. Yeah. And they're logical. And if
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: you give them a one, two, step one, step two,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: step three, you can say these things. You cannot say
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: these things. You can do these things. You cannot do
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: these things.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Come back at this time. Right.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Here's your time. Here's your max time you have to return.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Like they'll, they'll usually follow it.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And what a revelation. I mean, I know that
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: I think this is the best part that I know
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: that you get to see often is when like the
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: light bulbs sort of start to go off with the
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: DA and like they start to dethaw. Yeah.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: And the FAA, the FAA is like, Oh crap. Like
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the way that I've been coming at this is all wrong. Oh,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: frigging wrong. Like I have just been taking, like coming
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: onto the scene and stabbing a knife directly into their
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: biggest triggers.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when they already got a wound there.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And to them, it feels so justified, right? People
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: have to realize no matter what your attachment style is,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: you're coming on the scene feeling extremely justified in your perspective,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: your viewpoints, your wants and needs. And that is why
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: metacognition and mentalization, which is a form of metacognition, are
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: so incredibly important in being able to become a secure
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: person and resolve conflict. Because if you cannot put yourself
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: in your partner's shoes mentally, their behavior seems hurtful and
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: backwards and ridiculous. Yeah.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to know though, for those dating, right?
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: Let's go back to, because I know you see a
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: lot of people that have been in this dynamic for years. Oh,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: 34 years. Yeah. But for people who are dating, how
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: do they spot these things? How does the FA spot
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: some things in the DA? And then we'll talk about
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: how Well, I don't even know if the DA really
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: tries to spot things in the FA.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: They don't.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: So what are some things that maybe, let's just say
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: people can try to spot?
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Okay. For the DA, I love that. I say it
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: all the time, but I'll repeat it. The famous question is,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: how did you get over your last long-term relationship? What
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: did you do? The DA will give you a nothing
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: burger answer. I just had to, we just weren't compatible.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: It just was what it was. Healthy and secure people say,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: You know, any relationship ending is difficult. And it taught
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: me a lot about myself. And I was committed to
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: improving X, Y, Z things about myself.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: They will come back to, how did this help me grow? Yeah.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: That's what secure people will do. Because they're growth forward.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: They're growth facing. They're growth oriented. DAs are, when it
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: comes to emotional stuff, not growth oriented. A DA will
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: be growth oriented in areas of like finance or fitness
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: or business. these kind of external things, even leadership, things
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: that will advance them in their career, things that will
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: advance them in their health. But when it comes to relationships,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of times they will avoid that stuff like
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: the plague.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. How do you probe further if you're in that
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: situation and they just.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Say- Who do you follow? What books do you read?
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Who inspires you?
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: What was the last really inspiring thing that you heard?
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: There's lots of questions. DAs are going to be very workaholic,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: hobbyaholic focused. They're going to talk about work or hobbies
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: a lot. They're going to be– that is most of
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: the conversations they bring up are going to be around
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: their work or their hobbies. And that might be cool
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: at first because you'll be like, oh, they're so goal-oriented.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: They're so successful.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Right. It's just they have such a drive. Mm-hmm. Until
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: they put that over you and then they're not, right?
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Humor is a defense mechanism. So they will fill awkward
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: moments with a joke. If you try to pin them
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: down on something serious, oftentimes they will make a joke
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: to deflect.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: And FAs kind of do that too, though.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: They can. They can. The more avoidant-oriented ones can. But
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: it's a sign of avoidance kind of across the board.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: And I would say DAs being the more avoidant of
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: the two. definitely have more of that.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And let's be honest, you want to be looking
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: for a secure partner in general. So just be leery
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: of anything.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Humor is a defense mechanism. It's not cool.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know it can be funny in the
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: moment and you're like, oh, I like that they're so funny.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: And sometimes it ends up being something you think is
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: attractive because they're so funny. It doesn't get so funny
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: when you're upset and you really need an answer about
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: the state of the relationship or how they feel about
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: you or how they want to move forward, and they're
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: just cracking jokes to avoid it. It's not funny then.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the biggest way to tell the difference is
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: if they've just shown zero vulnerability in addition to.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because people don't understand transparency versus vulnerability. Transparency, again,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: is these things have happened to me, and maybe some
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: of those things are crappy and hard. Vulnerability is, and
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: here's how I felt about it, and here's how I
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: coped with it or didn't cope with it well. That's vulnerability.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Sharing your inner world. is vulnerability. Not just things that
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: have happened to you in your observable world. Red flags
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: of the FA. Kind of hot and cold behavior. Expectation
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: of mind reading. You know they're upset, but they're not
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: really telling you why.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Rebellious behavior, punishing behavior.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Punishing behavior, protest behavior for sure. If you feel outwitted
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Like they can, man, they can make a complex, an
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: anxious FAA can make a very complex argument very quickly
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: and use things against you very quickly. They can immediate,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: and I don't want to call them like purposefully manipulative,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: just like the DA isn't purposefully selfish. The FAA isn't
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: purposefully manipulative, but they can be manipulative.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: And it's different than a narcissist, right? Like a narcissist
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: would be purposefully neglectful or purposefully manipulative to hurt you
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: and gain power.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: And so it's not always easy to tell. And at
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, does it matter? Yes, because
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: one is fixable and narcissism isn't. So I get why
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: people want to hang in the game, right? Because they're like, well,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: if this is fixable.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: It's a time game. Yeah. You just kind of have
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: to play it out.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Right. Mm-hmm.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: It just doesn't feel good to be ignored or manipulated
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day. You need to have
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: your boundaries around those things. But an F.A. is so
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: good at piecing together what will hurt you and punch
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: you right below the belt. Right in the pee-pee. In
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: the pee-pee. Yeah.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: So I want to know how do people fix this?
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: How do they fix it? Because you've done it.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. Well, first is awareness. Like
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: the F.A. has to freaking realize how critical they are
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: and how emotional they are and how scared the DA
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: is of criticism and emotionality. They have to start practicing neutrality. Like,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: I come to the table and, you know, this is
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: just going to be a discussion.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: I'm just here to get on the same page with you.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: That's even acknowledging, like, tone of voice.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Tone is so big.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Because they'll be like, I didn't say anything bad. the
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: tone of their voice will.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: Be very like forward or direct. And that's interesting. That's
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: one of the contradictions is like FAs are super sensitive
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: to tone of voice yet really do a bad job
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: of controlling their own tone.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, that's true.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: So, and then the DA, I have to help them
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: be like, look, a frustrated tone isn't a reason for
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: you to bow out. That doesn't mean you're being attacked.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: It means someone has a little frustration and you, a
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: secure person is able to handle a little frustration, you know?
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: maybe they'll call it out and be like, hey, you
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: seem frustrated. But it doesn't mean that that's going to
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: shut them down and make them completely run away from
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: the situation. They'll be able to say, I'm feeling a
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: little bit scared of your frustration right now. I think,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you know, I feel like you're frustrated and I don't
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: know what to do with that. That's a very secure response.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: But just shutting down and being like, well, they're frustrated.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: They're attacking me. So I'm like, I don't know what
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: to do. And like going into freeze mode, right? And
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: then And so a lot of it is awareness. A
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: lot of it is mindset work. I mean, I feel
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: like I talk about how to do it all the
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: time without, you know, being giving you the, like literally
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: going through my whole coaching program over and over again. Metacognition,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: which is identifying and understanding your own thoughts in real
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: time and being able to change your perspective in real time,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: like challenging. Are they really trying to be selfish here
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: or is this just their programming? That's an example of
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: a metacognitive reframe. When you see someone pulling away and
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: you automatically want to go, gosh, how selfish. Like they
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: don't even care about me. It's being able to go
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: into your mind at that moment and being like, hold
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: on a second. That might not be actually true. This
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: is just their way of defending against their own internalized
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: shame and their own programming is taking over and has
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with how they might actually feel about
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: the relationship. Because someone else's version of love isn't going
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: to be the same as yours most of the time.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: And then you just have this job of trying to decide,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: can I accept their version of love? Do I have
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: to put boundaries in place? And how do I move
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: forward and show up myself as the best version of
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: myself despite what they're doing? And then put boundaries down
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: and escalate those until I'm out the door if necessary.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: So I just jumped to some of the behavior work.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: But the mindset work is really important. the emotional processing work,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: being able to identify when you are flooded, being able
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: to identify when your trauma responses in your nervous system
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: are being activated and have the tools to not just
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: bring yourself to regulation. That is what so many people
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: teach and it is so wrong. It is so wrong.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Why is it wrong?
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: It's wrong because you're skipping over integration. You're skipping over
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: the processing. You're just jerking yourself down into regulation without
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: really processing the experience. which is how you learn long-term
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: regulation is through processing and coming to the correct conclusions
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: about what's happening versus let me just fast downshift into
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: a regulated state so that I can maybe show up
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: good in the moment. But then it becomes a crutch.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Right. Then why is it so dangerous? Does it create
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: more internalized shame usually?
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Well, it becomes a crutch. So you fast downshift into regulation.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: So I just do all this deep breathing and I
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: just bring myself into a regulated state, you're definitely going
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: to get temporary regulation, but you're trading it for long-term regulation.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: So think about temporary discomfort that you can move through
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: while having enough degree of safety is what you need
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: to get to the processing and integration of the experience.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: And then that creates a downshift. And that's the downshift
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: you want to achieve versus the fast downshift that That
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: skips over the integration of the experience and the processing
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: of the emotion and what does it really mean for
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: me and my life and my identity and all that.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: You have to get to that. That is what is
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: the end result of emotional processing.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Do you think the only way to really tell the
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: difference between those two things is to actually experience them? Yes.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: And really know the difference.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: There is a huge difference. Like when Donald and I
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: get in a fight, I will get flooded. And I
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: will have to, in real time, try to work through
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: that flooding by using my soulless tool in my head. Like,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: it's in my chest. It's in your chest, Sarah, but
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: you're safe. This is just a difficult conversation. You know, oh, there,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: feel in my stomach. Let me take a little breath. Oh,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: I'm safe. You know, it's okay. Just let this be.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Don't try to move this. Don't try to change this.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: And still attend to myself while attending to him. And
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: it is challenging. It is a skill. It is a skill.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: And If the trigger's big enough, sometimes I screw up.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I, like, react a little bit, and then I'm like,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: hold on. Okay, I'm sorry, Donald. Like, I pulled a
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: little F.A. I did it the other day when we
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: were at a football game.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Well, nobody's 100% secure 100% of the time.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: It was– let me give a real humanized example of myself.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: We were trying to get into– this was before Gabby
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: quit high school cheer because she was– Gabby was– she
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: quit high school cheer. Update on Gabby, which is a
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: really hard decision. She was recruited so hard for all-star cheer.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: by her sister's all-star.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Jim.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Because they needed a main base on one team and
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: she's a fantastic man base. Anyway, this is a side quest,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: but this is relevant to the story. So it was
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: like the last football game we went to. And they
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: have this line, it's like a cash line and then
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: a scan your QR code. But the school has the
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: worst phone service and internet in the world. So we
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: were in like the, like we didn't know what line
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: to get into because it was not clear. Everybody was
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: just in like a big pile. And then finally we
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: realized we needed to get into the scan your QR
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: code line. So then we're trying to scan the QR
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: code and it like would not come up. It's like
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: spinning and spinning. So then I was like, hold on,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: let me try. And Donald said something and I took
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: it as rude and frustrated and annoyed because my FA
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: hypervigilance was kicked in because the stress was high. When
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: you have outside stress already high, your nervous system is
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: already carrying weight. So it's easier to get triggered, right?
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: So I heard what I thought was something like, He
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: was annoyed with me come out of his mouth. So
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: then I responded with a little bit of like, fine,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: I'll just do it. I will just do it. Because
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: he's like, he said something like, well, you seem to
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: know about this line better than me or something like that.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: And I think he was just trying to tell me like,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: go ahead and try because I think you can do it.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Like better, you might have better luck than me. Maybe.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Or maybe he was just, I don't know. Maybe it
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: was really rude. We didn't, we resolved it quick enough.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: We didn't get too into it.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Right. Right.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: So then we're both walking together, kind of activated. Then
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: we sit down together and I immediately go in for
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: a repair attempt. He's not ready. He's like, I just
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: need a minute. I'm like, okay. And then I go
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: in again and then that pissed him off and he
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: moved away from me a little bit. And then ended up,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: he's like, we were like, we need a timeout. Let's
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: go take a timeout. Let's get up from where we're sitting.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Let's go have a conversation. Okay. So we did. We
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: got up from where we were sitting because my mom
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: was with us. And I'm like, we're not doing this
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: in front of my mom, right? We took a little
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: venture out behind the bleachers and we had a very
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: calm five-minute conversation and it was over. And it was,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: we cleared it up. I took responsibility. He took responsibility
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: that we both got activated and we should have been
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: able to stay cool and And then we went and
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: got something from the concession stand. And like, that's how
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: it should be. Right. But where people, they, they don't
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: know how to stop that activation in their nervous system.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Then it just spirals because you're continually operating from this
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: activated place where you do not have clarity. You can't
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: access compassion. You can't access empathy. You can't mentalize very well.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: You can't stop your thoughts. These are skills.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And most people would have sat there during the
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: whole football game and not spoken to each other.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: And been mad over something so trivial.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: So freaking trivial.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: When you just repair quickly like that, then you can
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: move forward.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: And then we enjoyed the rest of what, I think
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: we stayed till halftime because my mom was having trouble.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: So we ended up taking her home.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: Um, It's so sad because these relationships are- It.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Would have ruined the night. And then for an FADA couple,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: that DA might have shut down for three days. Oh, yeah.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: And then the relationship falls apart over something so small.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: So stupid.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sad. Like a QR code.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: That y'all had no control over. And this is one
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: of many, many death by a thousand cuts that leads
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: someone to divorce.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: And it's so fixable.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: But you have to be able to play the long
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: game By practicing these tools. And that's why I'm so
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: freaking like just chomping at the bit for attachment OS
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: to be ready. Like we've been meeting constantly about it.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: I know. We're getting the AI advancements put into it
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: because it has to be able to be intuitive and
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: take you to the tools quick.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: And take you to the right tools at the right
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: time very quickly in the moment because it is relationship
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: intelligence in the palm of your hand. And not just AI,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: but AI Sarah, and then the option to advance to
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Coach Elizabeth or Coach Sarah. So take it to a
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: coach as an option, right? We're not just going to
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: leave you with the AI intelligence. If you get stuck
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: or you feel like the AI and the tools that
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: the AI takes you to, which are real scientific tools,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: are not going to get you through the moment and
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: you're stuck, you can go take it to a coach
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: and you can book.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: It's a great example of how you just augment AI
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: instead of replacing it.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Human beings. We're not replacing me with AI. We're augmenting
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: things with AI so that you have a route that
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: is financially accessible to you before you have to just
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: go in and spend this money that you don't know
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: if it's going to work for you. I mean, I
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: know it'll work. I'm pretty confident it'll work for you
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: if you apply what you learn. But the biggest hesitation
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: people have is, how do I know it'll work? And
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: that's what keeps them from spending the money. And so
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: you can get a glimpse into the work and what
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: it looks like and what my approach is. And if
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: that feels good and you're like, I just want to
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: know more and get deeper and get the human attunement,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: then you can proceed to the human attunement.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And this was one of the last questions I
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: want to ask is, you know, why the DA-FA cycle
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: typically does worse in like therapy settings?
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Yes. Therapy tanks them because here's what happens. The moment
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: they sit in that chair, the DA is already triggered.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to take criticism and I'm going
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: to have to be vulnerable. The FA partner is usually like,
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: and very emotional about all the things that the DA
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: does wrong. They use it as an emotional dumping ground.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: The therapist oftentimes, you know, criticizes the DA, and then
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: the DA feels double teamed, and their brain starts to
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: shut down. They don't have good answers, and they're going
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: to get defensive and cold. And then they're going to
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: be like, well, if therapy didn't even work for us,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: then we're hopeless. And they end up hating therapy, and
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: they end up quitting.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: And they end up worse.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: They end up worse.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they end up worse.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: It makes them more DA. Yeah.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: And it makes the FA more FA.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: It's just, again, guys, you have to realize that the
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: majority of these, and I don't want to hate on therapists. No, no.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: But someone with a one-year master's in social work is
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: not anywhere near someone who has been trained five, six,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: seven years with a doctorate. It took me five years
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: to get my doctorate. Yeah, yeah. And I was like
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: super speed.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Like I was a way overachiever. Most people, it takes
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: them six, seven years.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But then you also have just the experience of
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: being a professor for almost 15 years.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, and teaching this stuff, right? Like the science behind this.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: And then having to take that science and hold myself
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: to the fire and apply it to myself. Yeah, yeah.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: To know what it really feels like, not just from
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: a textbook perspective, but from a personal perspective to have
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: to continue to grind with these tools to make it happen.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: It's like getting better at a sport.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Yep, yep.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Right? Think about being a high school whatever sport player.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: How did you get better? Practicing. Yeah. And you have
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: to dedicate yourself. Like my girls are at the cheer
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: gym three days a week for two to three hours
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: a day. And sometimes my youngest one is in conditioning,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: strength and conditioning one to two other days a week.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Because if you want to be an all-star cheerleader.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: That's what it takes.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: That is what it takes to keep up.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And if you want to be securely attached.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: To If you want to have a good relationship, it
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: takes work and you cannot do it for your partner.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: You have to do it for yourself because you have
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: to be able to hold those boundaries and you have
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: to be able to articulate non-critically and you have to
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: be able to be the one to sometimes be the
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: secure anchor. Sometimes you got to be. If you want
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: to have a good relationship and the other person isn't
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: going to do the work, at least one of you
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: has to be the secure anchor in the relationship. or
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: else the weather's going to take you. Tornado's going to
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: take you. Rip the tree right out of the ground, right?
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: You're like the oak tree. You can't be ripped out
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: of the ground. The weather, aka your partner, can't sway you.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: That's the only way you'll keep your sanity.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's proof that one partner can just come
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: in and do the work.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: The evidence is there. Now, sometimes if the other partner's
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: super severe, it's probably just not going to work. But
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: then you at least have the tools to walk away
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: and feel like, I did everything I could. I held
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: the right boundaries. I didn't abandon myself. I respected myself
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: and I have the tools to face the pain of detachment.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: It's a win freaking win. It is. Either way. It is.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: I can tell how passionate you are about this because
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: just because I know you've seen it so much and
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: I know you've seen it go both ways. You've seen
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: it work so many times. And I've seen.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Marriages absolutely transform and kids be so positively affected by it.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: And I have personally coached more couples than I can
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: count on my hand stop a divorce. And to me,
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: there's nothing more fulfilling than that. And so on the
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: days where I want to literally shut down the business
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: and flip houses with my husband, because I have been
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: on the verge, guys. In the last six months, I
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: have been on the verge. But I just turned in
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: my manuscript to my editor, so I can't abandon show.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: No, we're on the cusp of great things.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: I have a really big book coming out, like the
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: book on attachment, which I shouldn't say– Are I going
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: to be a year? Because I just turned in the manuscript.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: I've got to go through a year of editing.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: We need a year. We need a year to talk
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: it up and get people excited for it.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: No, that's their process. Cover design, editorial process.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: There's so much marketing, going to market with it.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: It's Penguin Random House. They're the largest book publisher in
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: the world. They're not just going to whip it out.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: This is not Amazon self-publishing.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: Isn't that who Dolly Parton was contracted with?
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: She was with Folio Literary Agency. I don't know who
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: bought her book. It's a big process to publish a book. Folio... Well,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I had interviews with several agents. I chose Folio. They
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: chose me. They wanted me. I chose them. My Folio
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: agents are Margaret and Jan. Shout out to Margaret and Jan.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: They are the best literary agents on the planet. They
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: have been so transparent, so kind, so helpful. And they
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: got me nine meetings. And they're usually like, if we
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: get two meetings, great. Three is fantastic. I had nine meetings.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: I had all of the five major publishing houses and
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: several imprints within those publishing houses wanting this book. And
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: that feels so braggadocious to say.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: No.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: It feels so icky to say. And maybe that's like
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: my shame or something.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Or just not wanting to be perceived as braggy. So
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: there's a part of me that's like, you know what?
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Turn the volume down. But fuck yeah.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: You know what? I've worked my butt off in this space.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: And it started with academia.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: You're talking two decades of work.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Yes. I was a peon in a research lab when
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: I started this stuff.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: And I've worked. And I've earned. And I've climbed the
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: ladder of academia, which academia, like, guys.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: That's tough. And you've taken the proper risk. And I
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: took risk.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: And I left a literal tenure is job opportunity. security
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: for life. They cannot fire you.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: I can't get fired. I just think of Roscoe.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: I know. I can't get fired, right? And so it's
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: literally like being on social security. I mean, except you
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: have to work, right? You have to work, but not
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: that hard. After you get tenure, nobody works that hard
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: after tenure. I remember my tenured professors. I have been
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: in academia long enough as either a student or a
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: student teacher or a grad student or a professor to
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: know once you get tenure... It's like, cheers, guys. I'm
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: going to do the least possible freaking work and get by.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: And draw my check.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: And draw my check and let the younger peons and
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: let my grad students do the hard work. And sorry,
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: it's just that's the culture. And so I was heading
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: into that. I was heading into the security for $ 4, 500
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: a month.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Crazy.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: That's what I, that's, that was my take home pay.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: And I was a program director of two programs and
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: I taught in two programs and I was published and
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I was getting tenured and okay, I might've made it
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: to six grand a month and promotion to full professor.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: Cause I was, I was already told you're getting tenure,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: getting full professorship.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Like all you have to do is do the application.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: And if you do it correctly, you're in because basically
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: they're not going to let you apply. if you're going
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: to get turned down.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Because then technically they can fire you.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: If you don't get turned. So there's this whole like
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: pre-approval process before the actual dossier is created and application
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: process is created. So, you know, academia is its own breed.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: And I just said, right when they were like, yeah,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: you're in, I was like, um, guess what? I'm leaving
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to start my own business. Yeah.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: And you already had, I already had it, but I
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: already had my own business. It was a side gig.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: They didn't know about it. Sorry about that.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Um, But it just flourished.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: And before I had to technically disclose it, to be
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: street legal, that's when I left.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Because I'm always, I'm a rule follower. Oh, there's one
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: thing I wanted to clear up from last episode.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Because I'm a rule follower.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: So I never want to misrepresent myself because we did
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: have a comment. I do use, correctly, prompts from the
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: adult attachment interview in my personal attachment assessment. You are
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: allowed to use specific prompts for what we call narrative induction,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: which is if you're using any kind of structured, semi-structured,
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: it's really a semi-structured interview, you're allowed to use prompts.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: That is perfectly legal. Absolutely, it's public. You don't have
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: to have a license. You don't have to go through
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: the three-year-long training process. When I first started coaching, I
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: considered doing the two to three-year-long AAI full interview training
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: process where you have to get A two-week full-time training,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: and then you have two to three years of reliability
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: testing of your coding for the interview. It did not
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: seem worth it to me because my whole goal was
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: to create a quantitative measure, and I've kind of been
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: working on that ever since. So it didn't seem worth
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: it to me. So what I did decide to do
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: was use the allowable prompts from the AAI combined with
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: my own questions to do an assessment. And I think
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: it's scary accurate, and I've written a scientific paper that
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: is in– it's finished. I'm just trying to find a
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: journal home for it. We're going to aim high around
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: why we need a new measure because even the AI,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: in my opinion, the full measure does not capture adult
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: attachment as well as we need it to for the
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: specific problems we're seeing in romantic relationships today. The culture
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: is so different now. We have such an increase in
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: fearful avoidance and dismissive avoidance. And now with Gen Z,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: we're going to see an increase in anxious preoccupied attachment.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: That's where they're heading. So we need to update. That's
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: what science is. It's updating, right? It's updating based on
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: how the world changes. So someone left, it was a
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: troll from another creator. You can't use the AAI. First
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: of all, how did you even know that I wasn't certified?
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: Because I could have been certified and you wouldn't have known.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: But two, you're It was kind of a little bit
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: of an ignorant comment because you can use prompts from
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: the AAI. But in the last episode, I don't want
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: anybody to think that I used the full assessment. First
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: of all, that would take a bazillion years. Second of all,
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: I decided not to pursue that certification because I'm making
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: my own quantitative measure, which will not require a certification
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: because technology will score it for you.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: Right. And you don't, I mean, you want to make
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: it available.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Yes. And technically, hey, Maine Research Institute, Um, AAI should
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: now be scored by AI. There's no reason that you
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: should have to do hand coding anymore. Like that is
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: 15 years old. Like nobody should have to hand code
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: data anymore. You put a scoring system into AI and
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: it should spit it out. And then the, and the, um,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: the words that the interview responses into AI and it
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: will code it for you. Like, why are we still
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: doing hand coding? Like, there's no reason for that. That
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: takes a million years. It's, I guess it's just because
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: They want to make money.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: You know how much money it is? Oh, I can
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: only imagine. Thousands. I can only imagine.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: Thousands of dollars to get that certification.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: So if AI did it, they would be losing money.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: That's why, I don't know. We need to do our.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: Whole next episode on AI. Yeah, I was thinking about
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: it this morning. We're going to have to do another
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: episode on AI because we're on the cusp of something
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: really strange and there's lots of Different feelings, I think,
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: around it. I mean, I have lots of different feelings
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: around it.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have lots of different, like, mixed feelings. Now
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: it's all my algorithm is.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: I know. And I would love to get, like, an
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: expert on that we could talk to. But you guys
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: don't care about that stuff. You just care about the
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: attachment stuff.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: If you're an AI expert and you want to come
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: on our podcast, please reach out to us.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, reach out. Reach out to me. You can email
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: me directly at reina at drsarah.love.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: And... Dr. Sarah dot L-O-V-E.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Or podcast at drsarahensley.com. Either one. So guys, hopefully
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: this episode was helpful. I know that it was enlightening
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: for me. It always is when When Doc is really
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: passionate about one subject.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: And if you're in the FADA dumpster fire cycle, please
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: take my hybrid group. I promise you, you guys will transform.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: It will be enlightening.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: It will be enlightening.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Go to the website. Read some testimonies from some of
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: her clients. I mean, they're right there in black and
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: white for you.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we have video testimonies too.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we sure do. So please, guys, continue to tune in, like, subscribe, download.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Leave us a comment. Reach out to us. Until next time, peace, love,
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: and perspective.