Latest / The Touch of a Mustang / What Horses Offer Veterans Beyond Talk Therapy with Kathleen Saucier | Episode 61

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What Horses Offer Veterans Beyond Talk Therapy with Kathleen Saucier | Episode 61 · The Touch of a Mustang

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All of these experiences are part of that connection.
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We talk about self regulation, about breath, about with a
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Mustang especially the need for us to be present.
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Number one time we brought a group of guys out from a program
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was inpatient program and the Mustangs decided at that moment
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they came from the other side of the pasture.
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You know how they run together, right And where we were
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standing, I said don't move, just stand still.
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And the horses just went around us that in the instinct on them
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for the guys was to just move, right, right.
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But if they dodged them, they probably would have gotten hurt.
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But if you just stood still, the horses would not run into you.
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They knew what they were. They knew what they were doing.
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All of those things we can teach about ourselves and how we
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interact in the world. That's a really good visual,
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too, because how many of us get in that fierce state and then we
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do try to control it by dodging, taking some kind of action that
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actually then puts us into higher levels of harm than if
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maybe we got and reset for a minute instead of trying to flee
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from these situations that we're taking as physical harm to
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ourselves? Yeah, our best place can be
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sometimes to just stop and breathe and not do anything for
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a minute, not react. There are healers on this planet
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with the power to soften the suffering of mankind if they
1:24
have remained in the recesses of the world, abused, discarded and
1:28
labeled as trash. This is the touch of a Mustang.
1:31
I am your host, Shalise Clough and I'm here to tell the story
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of wild horses, Mustangs and the humans who are discovering and
1:40
sharing their gifts while working to protect their
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well-being and preserve their spirit so this divine power
1:47
won't be lost. Join us on this quest with The
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Wild Muslim. Kathleen, welcome back to The
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Touch of a Mustang. Exciting for you to be here
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again. Yeah, Shalise, I'm so excited to
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be here too. Thanks for having me on.
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Yeah, so first I want to give a shout out to your hubby.
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He's had a rough day. For anyone who watches this or
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is listening. Well, not a rough day today.
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He's had a rough week. Definitely send prayers your
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way. Kathleen is still here even
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though he had a heart attack. Dave had a heart attack what, 2
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days ago? 2 days ago, yeah.
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Yep, but he's doing good. He's a trooper.
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Yeah, yeah, that is good. So thanks for being here
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regardless of that to talk about horses and the way they help us
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and of course the work that you guys are doing so.
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Yeah, I'm excited. I I'm grateful that you're
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willing to talk to us about it again.
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I mean I we both love Mustangs. So yeah, anytime anyone who
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wants to talk about horses, hit me up.
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But yeah, I'm excited to kind of dig in a little bit deeper about
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some of the things that horses do for us and the ways that they
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can help us that people may know about, may not know about, and
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interesting new information that we're still finding out about
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even as being people who are working with them.
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So to start, maybe can you give everybody a little introduction
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about who you are, what you do, your background, things like
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that? Sure.
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So again, I'm Kathleen, Kathleen Saucier.
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I am the case manager, Co founder of Sampson Strength
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Sustainable Veterans Project and I've been in community mental
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health since 91. When I tell people that they're
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like what? Like that's a long time, right?
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But I started out as a counselor.
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I went to grad school, finished grad school in 2000.
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So I was working, you know, undergrad working at different
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places in mental health and working with delinquent youth
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and their families and in basically parenting programs for
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court order referrals for parenting, domestic violence,
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sexual trauma. And then when I got my master's
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degree in 2000, I started working.
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I did a dual degree in community mental health and school
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counseling. And in my master's program, I
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did my thesis research on horses and humans and yeah and I, I did
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it in a middle school, so it was with middle school kids.
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So I did committee counseling, school counseling.
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And so when I completed my degree, I went to work at an
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elementary school, but I needed to also get my hours for my
4:20
supervision for my licensure to become a licensed mental health
4:24
counselor. And so I worked at a child
4:26
protection team. So I did 2 jobs and at that time
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when I worked in an elementary school, it was kind of more of a
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inner city type of school and there weren't really horses
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around, right? But so I started to get really
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creative about what I could do with that.
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And I found a program, it was in Florida, and I found a program
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called the Black Stallion Literacy Project.
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At the time, that's what it was called.
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And they utilized, you know, the Arabian Nights program by in
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Orlando where they have the horses and they have all of
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those things. So they used those horses and
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they brought them to the schools to get kids excited about
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reading. And so I thought, well, I could
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do that, you know. And so I found a local person
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who would let me bring kids to the horse, see the horses.
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And she also brought a horse to school one day.
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And we got the kids books in the library.
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And so we kind of got them excited about reading, right?
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Wasn't necessarily mental health at that time, although I knew
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there were mental health benefits to it.
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And then I started working with some of the kids at the school
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that were really struggling and started a group and a program
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for kids where we would do after school groups and we would learn
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about horses. We'd learn about the parts of
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the horse. I had a big.
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That's where they had overhead projectors.
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Do you remember those? Yeah, they.
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Don't have those anymore. They don't have those anymore.
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They have smart boards now, right?
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And so we'd used the overhead and we created an outline of a
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horse and then we identified the parts, right?
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And we learned all about that. And we learned about a saddle.
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I brought my saddle in. They saw all that.
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And, and then I got my, my principal to allow me to take
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these kids after school to go to a local barn, which was amazing.
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And so started to see some real amazing behavioral changes with
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these kids at school as well as at home and started to like the
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teachers were saying, what are you doing?
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You know? And So what we were doing or
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what I was doing, I was a crazy person putting them in my car,
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driving them to this place. And what I would do is they
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would see the horse and we'd take a picture.
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I'd take a picture of them with the horse, me or the horse
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handler, and then I would make a little thing to go on their desk
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and it would say, this is my friend Charlie, you know, and
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Charlie knows how to stay safe. Charlie doesn't kick people.
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Charlie doesn't bite people. So it would go through all of
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those behaviors, right? And the kids would have it right
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on their desk with their horse friend.
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And they started to really change and shift in those
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behaviors that they were acting out in the past in the
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classroom. And so for me, it was all in
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line. What I knew worked right.
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And so then I left that and moved back to Connecticut from
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Florida to be with my parents and started a job working in the
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military. And I worked for the Department
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of Defense and I worked with horses at that time was I, I put
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together a program called Horses to Homecoming.
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And so the Horses to Homecoming was when a person's family
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member was deployed, the children had an opportunity to
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go hang out with horses. So it would give them something
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to write to their parent about, right, and get excited about.
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And so we also had a literacy component where they had books
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at grade levels that they could read.
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And so then when their family member came back from
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deployment, they got to go meet this horse.
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So it gave them something to talk about, something exciting,
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right? A reconnection.
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Probably break the ice a little bit, yeah.
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Absolutely. And it became a program that
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kind of got national recognition for the the state of Connecticut
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because of what they were doing. It was pretty cool.
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And so then I moved from that position, right?
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And I still at this point don't have a horse myself.
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So I know about, I know all about them and I love them.
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I mean, I grew up riding with horses and all that and then
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kind of got away with from having my own horse.
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Yeah. And so then when I went to work
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at the VAI, worked at a vet center, which is usually focused
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on combat PTSD, military sexual trauma.
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It is non medical counseling and it's separate from the VA, from
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the Medical Center, but it's under the umbrella of the
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Department of Veterans Affairs. And I started talking to my
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supervisor, the team leader there, about this horse thing.
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And he's kind of like, OK, Kathy, like, you know.
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And so I started to research. Were there other VAS in the
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United States that had any horse programs?
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And there were some here and there.
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And then there were some that were showing interest in doing
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it right. But this was, I was going to
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say, this is back in 2010, 2011. So it was quite a while ago,
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right? And so my supervisor, I, he
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said, well, if you could find a place that you could take the
9:10
guys, I'll let you use the van. So I found a place and it was
9:15
over an hour drive each way, but that ended up being a cool
9:18
thing. So I'd bring the guys out,
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they'd hang out with the horses, they'd brush the horses.
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There was no riding. It was all groundwork, what we
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call right, and hands on grooming like I mentioned,
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leading the horse. They would do some of that
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connection in a round pen with the horse, right?
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We'd do some things where they would lead the horse and they
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would run with the horse and jump over a log if they were
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physically able to, you know, we did that.
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And then we also invited their providers from the VA, the
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psychologists, the psychiatrists, the primary care
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doctors to come out and have this experience.
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And it was pretty amazing the changes that we saw that they
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were seeing as providers with the the veterans that came out
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right. And so they started doing more
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of that there. And then at that time, Dave, my
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husband retired out of the military and we moved to Alabama
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and we bought a farm. So we had land and still not
10:17
having any horses quickly. Soon to change.
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Right. He was struggling.
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He was in for 31 years in military and really struggled
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with transitioning out and not knowing what to do with himself.
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And he had a lot of physical problems.
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He had to have surgeries, all sorts of stuff.
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He is a survivor of suicide and he shares his story about that.
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It was a very difficult time and I knew horses worked, but I just
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didn't know what to do. And so I started looking online,
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and I started seeing things about this program through the
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Bureau of Land Management and the Mustang Heritage, where they
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had a program for veterans. And so unbeknownst to him, I
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signed him up. And what I didn't know was that
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he was going to have to, like, write an essay about himself to
11:04
be able to get in. Like, the first stage is you
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just go online, you sign him up, Right.
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Oh, yeah. So then it came back, and I
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said, Dave, I signed you up for this thing.
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Right? Yeah.
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And so we were really excited about it.
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And. But we were kind of late in the
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application process and so he didn't get in because I think
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there were only like 6 or 8 people that they'd allow at a
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time. And so then, yeah, the following
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year we applied again and he got accepted.
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But then COVID happened, so they shut it down.
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And so it was, you know, here's a guy, Dave, my husband, he'd
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never had experience around horses until he met me.
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And so he was excited about it, but he wasn't really, I don't
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think he really knew what it was all going to be about.
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Right. And So what I knew was that I
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needed to do something. And so I started realizing that
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this Bureau of Land Management thing in these Mustangs was
11:57
bigger than I ever knew and found out that there was a woman
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that was a tip trainer because at the time they called them tip
12:04
traders. Right.
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Only about 90 minutes away from us.
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And so I reached out to her and I told her kind of the story and
12:11
about how he'd been accepted and then whatever.
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And I said, I mean, could we just adopt one?
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And she says sure. You know, she told me all of
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right. Yeah, that's what I do.
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You know, Mustang, we'll get that answer, especially if you
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have the facilities. Remember what I said?
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Could we just adopt one? Right.
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Keep that in mind as we go along here, right?
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Because it's going to develop, right?
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Because you already know the end of the story.
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But so we go and he meets this yearling and he's just a goofy
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yearling, right? And he's just perfect because
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he's just, you know, those ones that are kind of in your pocket,
12:45
but not in your pocket. Like they want to be around you.
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They're kind of nosy, you know, and don't have a lot of
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boundaries and stuff. But they're, they're, he's just
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a goofball. So Dave really connected with
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him like right away. In fact, the very first, the
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very first time we went there, myself and the trainer we're
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talking and we're talking about different things.
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And we look over and Dave had picked up a brush.
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He just walked right into the paddock area where he was.
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He was in a round pen, small round pen inside a barn.
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And she's like, oh, no, no one's ever done that.
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You know, like no one's ever brushed.
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He's just so, oh, he starts brushing it.
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But he had just this pure intention with No Fear.
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Yeah. And the horse just let him do
13:25
it. Yeah.
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And that was the first touch for that horse.
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Well, he probably had touches, you know what I'm saying?
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Because he had a halter on. Yeah, he already had his tag
13:33
off, but he hadn't really had like, brushing.
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Yeah, he wasn't living a life fully with humans yet.
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Yeah, no. No, no, no, no, no.
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And so. But Dave just was like, you
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know, he didn't have any fear. I don't know what I'm doing.
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Yeah. And so that we knew then that he
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was going to be the one, right. And so then there was another
13:51
horse there, a mare who was very disconnected, very shut down.
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And they kind of had some suspicions that she might have
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had a baby, had a foal, and maybe it got separated in the
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corrals or something happened, right?
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And so she was just shut down from the other horses.
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She was pretty depressed. You know, from a horse
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perspective, right? Right.
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Yeah, something was not right. Didn't want anything to do with
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people, so I say shut down. Like you couldn't go near her.
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She was that kind of like, you know, and so I of course my
14:22
mental health side thought, well, I could help this horse
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while Dave is getting to know this horse, right.
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But at the same time, remember I grew up our own domestic horses.
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And so I thought to myself, I don't want to die like these
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things are dangerous right there, like these wild horses of
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the West. And that was my impression.
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And not that they can't be. Right.
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Yeah, correct. And they can, right?
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They can't do that if people are not aware of them.
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True. Right.
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But they are what you see is what you get for the most part.
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Every once in a while you'll get one that's not, but that's like
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humans, you know. But that the piece that I really
14:58
want to go is, is that every one of these horses that we've
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experienced and by the way, we now have 9 Mustangs.
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Oh my goodness, did I know that you had 9?
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Are there new ones I don't? Know if I can get that either
15:13
9A. Very spicy girl.
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I think you knew that we had eight.
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OK. And then we had two Belgian
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giraffes when we talked to the last time.
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Now we have 5:00. We we rescued four more or three
15:24
more girls mares and then a spicy Mustang.
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She's spicy all right. Sounds like some good additions.
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Yeah, and they're in a separate area like that new fenced in
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area that we got and but each one of them has a story, right.
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And the part that I want to talk about is there's this program
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for therapists to get trained, you know, or mental health
15:47
professionals to get trained. It's called Arenas for Change,
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Arc ARCH OK, And there's many different programs that you can
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go through, but the part I like about this program, and I'm in
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their certification process right now, I'm almost done,
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which I'm excited about. Nice is that they talk about the
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story and you know when you talk about therapy and how can horses
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help humans, we all have a story.
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Right. And what's cool about the
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horses? You know when I tell Grace's
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story, that's what I named her. Until Grace, right, about how
16:22
disconnected she was, how she just was, she would be by
16:26
herself. She didn't want anything to do
16:28
with any of the courses unless a human came out.
16:31
And then for safety purposes, she would gravitate towards the
16:34
herd. And so I tell that story and
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about how she had one of the things they said, the trainer
16:39
said is she doesn't have a lot of confidence, you know.
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And so when we brought her to our farm with the other horse,
16:45
which we named Samson, right, she became the mayor.
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And because we didn't have any other horses and he was younger.
16:53
And so she just stepped up and gained this confidence, which
16:57
was probably there all along, but she just lost it.
17:00
Right. Yeah, see what you said already,
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you connected with her. And so that's the story that
17:07
arenas for change. It talks about the story and
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what is what is the story that we see.
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So one of the things, and we had added horses after horse, you
17:16
know, each one of them had a story, whether it's a rescue
17:18
story or, you know, they retired, right.
17:24
I think you'd seen two of our drafts, the big boys that were
17:28
in a slaughter pen, right? They'd worked all their life
17:30
very hard. And I thought, you know, knowing
17:34
what I know about horses and having spent my time with
17:36
horses, I thought we're just going to stick with these
17:38
Mustangs because they don't eat a whole lot like they, it
17:41
doesn't cost much to feed these things, right?
17:43
Yeah. You know, easy keepers most of
17:47
the time. Yep.
17:47
Most of the time, except for the ones that the vet bills will get
17:50
you because they do stupid stuff right?
17:53
Yeah. But when Dave heard about these
17:55
draft horses, I looked at him. I go Dave, do you know how much
17:59
they eat? A lot.
18:01
A lot. He's like, oh, how much could it
18:03
be, right? I'm telling you, they need a lot
18:06
of food, right? And they're older, so they're
18:09
compromised medically. So they need medical care and
18:12
they need medicine, right, and supplements and all sorts of
18:16
other things. But he connected so much with
18:19
them because he served 31 years. And then when he couldn't do it
18:22
anymore, they kicked him out. And so to him, they were him.
18:26
And, you know, people ask him all the time, are you going to
18:29
ride them? Are you going to work them?
18:30
Are you going to make them pull wood out of the, you know, trees
18:33
out of the woods? And he's like, no, they're here
18:35
to retire. They're here to just enjoy life,
18:38
you know, and more of the story, right?
18:41
So when people come out, all we have to do is start telling
18:44
stories. And then people start to share
18:48
their story. And sometimes they don't even
18:50
share their story. You just see clicks right in
18:53
here. Yeah.
18:56
That's what you know, these draft horses are in with the
18:59
Mustangs, right? So whereas before you can tell
19:02
that they were probably chained to stand because they have scar
19:06
scars around here, right, which is not uncommon.
19:09
It's not a uncommon practice. They run in the field with the
19:13
Mustangs, They kick up their feet with the Mustangs.
19:16
You know, they're pretty sore the next day.
19:20
Yeah. One thing that we a big part of
19:24
what we do at our farm, you know, we don't ride.
19:28
It's groundwork. It's having that experience
19:32
observing the herd and how do they interact, right?
19:35
And what are their personalities?
19:38
You know, one of the draft horses, he's, we call him Grumpy
19:42
because his name is really Orion, because he's like a big
19:46
God, right? But he has pain, you know, he
19:50
takes daily meds, daily anti-inflammatory, daily natural
19:53
supplements, you know what, you name it, he's taking it.
19:56
And he's in a lot more comfort than he ever was.
19:58
But when he's got enough of you, he takes his back, big, big back
20:03
foot and goes bump, bump, bump, just like that, Like I'm done.
20:06
And I first time he did it, I looked at Dave.
20:08
I'm like, huh, He's just like you, right?
20:12
Yeah. And we started to laugh about it
20:14
because. We do.
20:16
We mirror those same things as humans.
20:19
Yeah, those stories are very powerful.
20:21
And I've even talked to, like you said, you put a picture of
20:24
the horses with the kids. I talked to a photographer who
20:28
just takes pictures of horses recently, and even she and her
20:32
experience, people would come to her and just the view of the
20:34
horse, seeing the horse would resonate with something that
20:37
they were also experiencing. So whether we're in their direct
20:41
presence. But even more, I've realized
20:44
even just the photography, the pictures, the art that involves
20:48
horses can bring a lot of that same feeling to our internal
20:53
being, where we feel like someone else has had that
20:56
experience or we feel a little more seen than maybe we were
21:00
before. Yeah, and connected.
21:02
Connected, yeah. Right, and we can, we can, you
21:05
know, if I were to say like that horse that I have on the wall,
21:09
right, whether the picture or the one that's working like,
21:11
well, what do you think about that?
21:12
Where do you think what's going on with it?
21:15
You know, and and we would be able to share something in a non
21:19
threatening way about what's going on with us, right?
21:21
Like or what we want to be like. It looks free, it looks happy,
21:26
right? And, you know, has there ever
21:27
been a time when you felt that way?
21:29
Yeah, you know, or what do you think would help you to feel
21:33
that way? And, you know, like you talked
21:36
about with the pictures, so the pictures are so powerful.
21:40
One of the other things from Arenas for Change is we would in
21:45
part of our classes. And in fact, I didn't mention
21:48
this, but Dave and I are getting ready next week to present at
21:51
the University of Alabama at the Alabama School of Alcohol and
21:54
Other Drug Studies about the benefits of horses for humans.
21:58
Nice. Yeah.
22:00
And one of the things that I did, and it came out of that
22:03
Arenas for Change class because I took photo off my phone.
22:08
I sent them to walmart.com for $0.16.
22:11
I'm going to give a little commercial from Walmart.
22:14
Yeah, but they print out the a picture for $0.16.
22:18
Yeah. And so I printed out pictures of
22:21
our herd, right? In all different styles, all
22:25
different times and date things. One of the pictures is with them
22:28
all laying down except for one, right?
22:32
We know what that means. Yeah, somebody got on guard
22:35
duty. Someone's on guard duty, right?
22:38
And so and, and talking about what are you drawn to in that
22:43
picture? You know, and having someone
22:45
share that you can do a ton of stuff with that.
22:49
Yeah. You know, or what do you think?
22:51
What do you think that that one that's on guard duty is
22:54
thinking? You know, what would you be
22:56
thinking that was you? You know, have you been that
22:59
person if you're a military person, right?
23:02
Yeah, yeah. And it seems like horses allow
23:05
us to be vulnerable without maybe feeling vulnerable.
23:08
You know, a lot of times we overthink it and sit there and
23:11
Stew in our thoughts. And, you know, should I share
23:14
this? Is this safe to share?
23:16
And when you get in the presence of horses, it's almost easier to
23:18
let those thoughts and emotions and feelings surface and flow
23:23
and sometimes even share them. Yeah.
23:25
And sometimes people, so what's interesting, and you know this,
23:28
and lots of people don't know it is, and maybe there'll be
23:31
someone watching the podcast that doesn't know it is that the
23:34
horses can sense us from quite a distance.
23:37
It's a safety mechanism for them, right?
23:40
Yeah, but they can sense our heart rate.
23:42
And so the reason they're sensing our heart rate is
23:45
because if we have a high heart rate, it could mean that there's
23:48
a threat around. Either we're the threat, right,
23:51
or we're afraid of something else.
23:53
And so one of the things that we teach people before they enter
23:56
the space, right, the pasture or the corral, is to take a breath
24:00
and to breathe. So we're teaching a self
24:02
regulation skill in that moment that if I'm feeling something
24:07
and I can use a breath and bring myself back to us calm state.
24:13
And then we also talked about how to to the horses were
24:17
predators, right? And there's different thoughts
24:20
on this, about what that means and everything else.
24:22
But you know, especially for Mustangs, who the majority of
24:27
them have had a negative experience, whether the person
24:29
intentionally was being negative or harmful to them, they were
24:34
taken from their freedom and put in a confinement, right?
24:40
Even if everyone did it nice, you know, And then very often,
24:43
obviously, if, if they're not gelded, they're going to get
24:46
gelded. Yep.
24:48
You know, their feet need to get trimmed very often or they need
24:52
to have vaccinations, you know, or they have to have blood
24:54
drawn. They have to have all that stuff
24:55
done. And that's kind of scary to a.
24:58
Horse, yeah, Brandon, while they're in a very confined, you
25:02
know, unable to have any control.
25:05
Yeah. And so think about how we can
25:07
relate all of those things to human experiences.
25:11
Yeah. Going back to the stories, Yeah,
25:13
exactly. Yeah.
25:14
Back to the stories again. And that and but the regulation.
25:17
So we also do something called the Masterson method.
25:20
So the Masterson method, I think we told you about that the last
25:23
time. Yeah, we talked a little bit
25:25
about it before. Yeah, it's a real, it's kind of
25:28
like Reiki or energy work with humans, right.
25:31
So it's kind of it's a form of a massage.
25:34
But the piece of it is that's really cool about it, where the
25:36
energy part comes in as you don't have to touch the horse,
25:40
actually have it work. And some people are much better
25:43
at it than others. And I, I think it's those people
25:45
that are able to just be really present.
25:47
You know, Dave, my husband is amazing at it.
25:50
Yeah. I think the other part about him
25:52
is that he came into this gig late in life, right?
25:55
He had no knowledge, previous knowledge of horses, you know,
25:58
so he didn't have a knowledge of what to do, what not to do, what
26:00
you're trained, you know, all those things, right?
26:03
All the safety stuff, right, which is, you know, is so
26:07
important. But the.
26:08
Safety stuff and also all the the rules, you know, absolutely
26:12
don't do this, absolutely do the do this, the rules that maybe
26:14
are becoming a little more obsolete.
26:16
Yeah. I mean, think about like what
26:18
you're talking about. OK, So we could say rules.
26:20
When I was growing up, I've never seen a bit less bridal.
26:23
I didn't know what that was. Yeah.
26:26
In fact, if I saw it, I would tell you it was a halter with
26:29
with brains on it, right. Yeah.
26:32
And yet people like Justin Dunn, right?
26:34
His bit less bridal and he's, I mean, all of those kinds of
26:37
things, like they're just a kinder, gentler way to work with
26:41
a horse. And when I took, when I went a
26:44
couple weeks ago, I went to the Horses and Humans Foundation
26:47
Research Foundation conference, and they had a whole track on
26:52
horse equine welfare. And they had three presenters
26:56
in, in one of the sections and they had a skull of a horse.
27:03
And they showed what happens with a regular bridle where it
27:06
sits and different halters and where it sits on the horse's
27:09
nose and what it's pushing on, right.
27:11
And the, the nerves or the nerves come out.
27:14
And those are the things that we weren't taught, I wasn't taught
27:17
about anyway. Right I.
27:19
Was just taught, oh, that looks like a good fit.
27:21
Well, why is it a good fit? You know, why is it not a good
27:24
fit? You know, because it's hurting
27:26
them, right? And the same with bits and all
27:29
those. I'm not saying that bits are
27:30
bad, but you know that's it's about looking at things from a
27:34
different perspective. Again, you know, they have a
27:37
niceness to or an interesting aspect to have someone like Dave
27:42
who doesn't have any of that knowledge.
27:44
I mean, he the first time I every once in a while, he's much
27:46
better at it now. But you know, you give him a
27:48
halter and he's like. You got enough horses for him to
27:50
figure it out, Yeah. Right.
27:52
Like I remember one time I went in and I'm like, what the heck
27:55
did he do? The halter was on all upside
27:57
down, you know, and the horses just looking at me like what is
28:00
happening here? I don't know what to do, you
28:02
know? But again, all of these
28:04
experiences, we're part of that connection.
28:08
You know, you're talking about we're talking about horses for
28:11
mental health, right? And what does that mean?
28:14
And we talk about self regulation, about breath, about
28:18
breathing, about especially with any horse, but with a Mustang,
28:22
especially the need for us to be present when they're we're in
28:27
their presence. I remember one time we brought a
28:30
group of guys out from a program is inpatient program and the
28:35
Mustangs decided at that moment they came from the other side of
28:38
the pasture. You know how they run together,
28:40
right And where we were standing, I said don't move,
28:43
just stand still. And the horses just went around
28:47
us. But that in the instinct on them
28:50
for the guys was to just move, right, right.
28:54
But if they dodged them, they probably would have gotten hurt.
28:58
Yeah. But if you just stood still, the
28:59
horses would not run into you, right?
29:02
They knew what they were. They knew what they were doing.
29:04
And they maneuver like a maneuvering around a tree, you
29:07
know? And so it all of those things we
29:10
can teach about ourselves and how we interact in the world
29:15
with the horses. Yeah, that's a really good
29:17
visual, too, because how many of us get in that fierce state and
29:21
then we do try to control it by dodging or, you know, taking
29:25
some kind of action that actually then puts us into
29:29
higher levels of harm than if maybe we SAT and reset for a
29:34
minute. Instead of trying to flee from
29:36
these situations that we're taking as physical harm to
29:39
ourselves. That, you know, our best place
29:41
can be sometimes to just stop and breathe and not do anything
29:45
for a minute, not react. What was the thing that first
29:47
clued you in that horses could help people in a way that help
29:51
them in their mental life? Because you said pretty far back
29:55
you kind of had some clues. Yeah, well, I, you know, as a
29:58
kid, my horse was my everything, right?
30:02
You know, I, it took me a while to convince my parents to get me
30:05
a horse. So I would go borrow the
30:07
neighbors all the time. As a teenager, I struggled a lot
30:10
with stuff and struggled a lot with getting along and fitting
30:13
in and everything else. But as soon as I got the horse,
30:16
I had a friend, you know, and then I got a girlfriend that
30:19
rode too. And so we rode together, you
30:21
know, we would go do things together, someone that I
30:23
probably never would have connected with other than that
30:26
happened. And then I felt again connected
30:29
right to something. It was also something that got
30:32
me up in the morning. Yeah, Yeah, those two same
30:35
things. I've heard other people talk
30:37
about connection, not necessarily in terms of the
30:39
horses, but in terms of mental health, how huge having that
30:43
connection can be. And you obviously work with
30:46
veterans and that's a huge thing while they're serving.
30:48
And then they get out and it's like kind of like Dave
30:52
experienced, I would guess you're just kind of out there on
30:55
your own. You're not part of that
30:56
camaraderie in the same way anymore.
30:59
And then also several people, you know, just having someone
31:03
who relied on them, that would be the reason they'd keep going,
31:05
that they'd get out of bed, that they would keep moving forward.
31:08
Maybe they wouldn't have done it for themselves, but they knew
31:11
something else depended on them. And it's so true, you know, in a
31:15
regular herd of domestic horses, there's some order for sure, you
31:20
know, but you it's so obvious in Mustangs that you can sit and
31:25
observe it. And for people like you
31:27
mentioned, like veterans who come from structure, right rank,
31:30
you know, a chain of command, all of that, you can clearly
31:34
figure out where they or have them figure out where, who they
31:37
identify with in the herd. And why is that right?
31:40
Because I was that person. I was the low ranking one, you
31:43
know, And you know, you watch it at first you feel bad for the
31:47
worst, but you realize they've got to earn their place.
31:49
They've got to work their way up in the herd, in their standing.
31:52
And what does that look like? And sometimes it looks like
31:55
fighting, right? To us.
31:59
It can look look pretty scary sometimes.
32:02
But being able to observe it from afar and watch it happen,
32:05
you know, this morning, I was going down to, to see what the
32:09
horses were doing. And it was a draft horse and
32:12
Grace, the mayor, and she was putting him in his place.
32:15
That she's a Mustang. She has 14 hands, right?
32:18
He's like 18. Yeah.
32:20
And and the squealing that was going on and everything else.
32:24
And I just kind of looked at him like, all right, that's enough,
32:27
you know? And they stopped and they looked
32:29
at me like, you know, but all of that, when they observe it,
32:34
people would come that don't have an experience with horse.
32:36
What are they doing? Why are they doing that, you
32:38
know? Yeah.
32:40
What are some of the ways, since you guys have started your
32:43
organization, have you seen that the horses have helped
32:46
individuals that have come and been able to spend time with
32:49
them? Sure.
32:50
We lots of different ones, veterans that have come to stay
32:54
with us that have either had a horse experience or not had
32:57
horse experience, just share that they feel more connected.
33:01
They feel more empowered, right? That, that was pretty cool.
33:05
Especially when we teach you a Masterson method that it's
33:07
called the bladder Meridian, which is very simple.
33:10
And the horse starts to relax and they yawn and they roll
33:13
their eyes and they do all this stretching and stuff and they're
33:17
like, wow, I did that. Oh, lots of times when they get
33:20
out, they don't have a lot of confidence, you know, or they
33:22
don't know what to know what to do next.
33:24
And we say, OK, first thing you do is get up at 7:00 AM and
33:27
we'll see you out. Worth feeding, You know, we
33:29
don't think much about it, but to step in this pen with a, you
33:34
know, 1000 to 2000 LB animal and say, OK, you're going to brush
33:37
their mane, right? And brush their body.
33:39
And we're going to do that for every one of them.
33:41
Let's go down the line. That's a pretty cool thing.
33:44
So we've seen that. We've also seen where children,
33:48
particularly children of a person who's deployed, you know,
33:52
may be struggling with some outbursts at school or just
33:57
feeling like they don't fit in now feels pretty special, right?
34:03
They come out and they spend time with the horse or the
34:05
donkeys. We have also Burrows from the
34:08
Bureau of Land Management. Just spending that time being in
34:14
there with them, it's just amazing.
34:15
We've had experiences where, you know, people have the first
34:21
thing they say when they come out as so we're going to ride
34:23
like, no, we're not going to ride well, what do you do with
34:25
them then, you know? Yeah, what's the point?
34:29
What's the point? But by the time they're done,
34:32
they're like, I get it now. I get it right.
34:35
And they'll send, I can't stop thinking about Argentina or I
34:38
can't stop thinking about Pippi, you know, or you know, how's
34:42
Samson today? Samson is our the big goofy.
34:46
One day he'll lay down and you can go right up on him.
34:49
And we had an experience one time with a young man who lost a
34:54
parent, Sampson. He knows, right?
34:59
And so he was laying down and I said you can go pet him.
35:02
And I showed him I, you know, I always go around the back,
35:04
right? So we're not by the feet, you
35:06
know. And so make sure he knows you're
35:08
there because when they're really sleeping and Sampson
35:11
will, he sleeps laying down more than most of them, you know, and
35:14
he'll good like he'll be snoring and everything.
35:17
It's hilarious. Kind of let him.
35:20
For a horse. Yeah, Oh yeah, he's a snore.
35:22
So as you got to let him know you're there so he doesn't
35:24
startle, right? Because I used to share about
35:26
fight flight or freeze and why they jump up real quick.
35:28
And so we've been talking to him and petting him and everything
35:32
and he was kneeling down. This kid was really tall and he
35:35
was kneeling down behind Samson, right up about his Withers and
35:39
just petting him. And I'm standing there with this
35:41
kids mom and Samson rolls over and wraps his legs around the
35:47
kid. So now the kid is sitting and
35:49
I'm, I'm like, you know, safety first rate.
35:53
And those legs are big and heavy and powerful.
35:56
But he was so gentle, and he just wrapped his legs around
36:01
him. And I said, I don't know what to
36:04
do right now because I've never seen him do that to someone.
36:08
Yeah. And I said, I want you to be
36:09
safe, but I also want you to have this experience, Right?
36:13
And so we, you know, we, we breathed, we all of us, his mom
36:17
and me and his mom was like, let it, I want him to have this
36:19
experience. So we were all right there and
36:21
we saw it, you know, I got a picture of it actually.
36:24
And he was just smiling like he was like, that was incredible.
36:28
You know, we've had times where when we first got the two BLM
36:33
little baby Burrows, they were, you know, pretty scared, right?
36:36
They'd come out of, they'd been herded up and there were little
36:39
guys. And so we named him Shimmer and
36:42
Shine. And the daughter of one of our
36:46
board members who's 14 and in the spectrum of autism, she
36:50
said, I want to meet Shimmer and Shine.
36:51
So we're like, sure, you know. So now as you remember, they
36:54
can't really touch them yet. You know, she's oh, no.
36:57
And she just starts walking right towards them.
36:59
And I look at her father and I go, I'm about to say don't do
37:02
that as soon as it's OK. She walked right up to them,
37:05
just like Dave did with that horse that first time and
37:09
started petting them and saying, you miss your mother, don't you?
37:11
You miss your mother. And they're just staying right
37:14
there and letting her pet them like that.
37:16
And now those two. And once that happened, once she
37:19
did that and they realized a human could be safe, we had full
37:23
touch on them the next day. And they are the biggest love
37:27
bugs. They're, they're known because
37:29
all of our donkeys like butt rubs.
37:31
Yeah. But shimmer and shine will
37:33
actually come up to you in the pasture and then turn around and
37:37
then back slowly to you until you can start giving them a butt
37:42
rub. Make sure you know their
37:43
intention. Right.
37:45
Make sure you know, Yeah. But so those are, those are just
37:48
some of the experiences we've had people.
37:50
I had a person who didn't think that horses were that big of a
37:54
deal and they just started crying and they just said this
37:59
has just been the most amazing experience and I don't even know
38:03
what it is yet. And I just tell them that's what
38:06
we get here. We have it.
38:08
You know, there's days when, of course, going out and feeding.
38:10
I'm just going out to feed. Right, just on autopilot.
38:15
Yeah, autopilot and I, the horses know it, you know, and
38:18
sometimes they're on autopilot. Like you can tell they're like,
38:20
could we just get this over with?
38:21
I'd like to get them go out, just give us, that's right, give
38:25
us the food because ours are in a herd 24/7.
38:29
So the only time that they're not in a field in grazing and in
38:33
the mountains, like hill is hilly, you know, woodsy area
38:37
too, in a pond so that they can wade in.
38:39
The only time that they're not in that is when we bring them in
38:42
to eat. And, you know, like, you know,
38:44
we are in Alabama. So Mustangs don't really need to
38:46
eat, you know, like they, they, they get enough forage, right?
38:50
Yeah, but we give them supplements, so we give them,
38:53
you know, different vitamins and things like that.
38:55
So we've got to give them a little food.
38:57
Plus, this is what we learned is that it's the same thing, you
39:01
know, that their brain connects food with what's happening when
39:05
they're eating. So we started glooming while
39:08
they were eating, and now we can go out in the pasture and groom
39:12
them anywhere because as far as they're concerned, that's safe
39:15
and it's comfortable and it's pleasant, right?
39:17
And so this is the same thing like when the Farrier comes
39:21
first time, the Ferrier came when we said we had Mustangs.
39:24
She's like, well, not so sure, you know, let me come out right.
39:28
Yeah, not everybody wants to work with a Mustang.
39:31
No, and we did the master sins and and everything else and
39:34
we've done the grooming. And so they were very relaxed.
39:37
She said, are you drugging these horses?
39:39
We're like, no, you know, so they it's just they feel safe
39:43
and comfortable. And what's also really cool to
39:46
observe, Dave always tells people when they say, well, we
39:48
want to come out and see your horses and said, we'll come out
39:50
at 7:00 O clock because that's what we feed, right?
39:53
Because you can watch what happens because they, they have
39:57
the, it's round pen panels and they have their stalls right?
40:01
And they're all divided up. So there's 8 Mustang stalls down
40:04
there and then two draft stalls down there.
40:06
And so the draft horses going, they have to be separate because
40:09
they get grumpy and they can reach right over the top and to
40:13
the other. So they're separate, but they
40:14
know which is theirs. We'll just tell them, go on, get
40:17
in your stall, you know? And to watch them do that, like
40:22
some of them are creatures of habit, they will go to the exact
40:25
same stall and they don't want a different stall, right?
40:28
They want their stall even though it's their names not on
40:30
it, right? How is that like us?
40:34
Routine, yeah. Right.
40:35
Think about like going to a restaurant, like somebody took
40:39
my table, how could they take my?
40:40
It's not your table, right? But it's, it's just this, we're
40:44
used to it and this routine. And so it's funny because I love
40:48
to watch this behavior in the morning.
40:50
Like the ones that get there first and they get their pick of
40:53
which stall they want. They're all the exact same size.
40:56
OK. And I don't think that they
40:58
figured out that we usually go this way, but maybe they have, I
41:01
don't know. But they'll get there.
41:04
And then if someone gets in their stall and the stall gets
41:06
closed, they'll stand right there like, no, this is my
41:10
stall. And I'll just look at him.
41:11
I'm like, dude, you're late. You know, you're going to have
41:14
to take another one if you want to eat.
41:15
And they'll stand there for a while.
41:17
And then they'll just. And they'll go, yeah.
41:22
But we don't force, you know, they don't have halters on.
41:26
We don't force them to go in. The only one that we have to be
41:29
a little bit pushy with is Argentina.
41:31
And see, here again, people watch this and observe it.
41:34
Now. Argentina grew up and we call it
41:36
a Foo Foo barn, right? So she had her own stall and and
41:40
it had those nice soft chips and she pooped.
41:45
It got picked up right away. She didn't really know dirt.
41:50
OK, She knows dirt now because she's a Gray.
41:53
And now she's a red Gray because she likes red dirt.
41:56
OK, but she she does this thing where she likes to be
41:59
opposition. She doesn't like to go in.
42:01
So we'll have to go get a halter and a lead line and say, come
42:03
on, Arch, we got to go, you know, and sometimes she'll just
42:07
be like, no, I'm not going. And also then you're not going
42:09
to eat, you know? So, but it's all this stuff is
42:13
we miss it when all we do is say we're going to go ride our horse
42:18
today. Yeah, for sure.
42:19
There is a different access that we have to the relationship with
42:23
the horses when we open it up to be more than just riding.
42:26
When we let go of that agenda a lot, I found that true of a lot
42:30
of people, that the agenda is what creates so much tension,
42:34
and when we can let go of that kind of opens up this whole
42:37
learning experience with the horses.
42:39
And that's where this also is really helpful, working with
42:43
therapists or providers. I just talked about the agenda.
42:48
You know, how many therapists or how many times has have I as a
42:51
therapist gone into a session with an agenda?
42:55
Yeah, something you want to fix or heal or address.
42:58
And a person that's experienced trauma can see if I walk in that
43:02
room with an agenda or they can see if I'm watching my clock.
43:06
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I have an agenda.
43:10
I've only got so much time here, right?
43:13
And I'm not saying that we shouldn't have a time limit on
43:15
the session, but what I'm saying is it's about being present.
43:20
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the reality
43:22
of the human world. Whereas when you go into the
43:24
horses world, it's not quite the same.
43:26
You know, they may stand by you for three hours, they may check
43:30
you out for 5 minutes and then leave.
43:32
Whatever they do, it's of their choosing when you're with a
43:35
horse in an open situation like that versus having a halter or
43:40
whatever on them. Yeah.
43:42
Like we both felt some of the things horses have done.
43:45
I think we've both kind of experienced that.
43:46
That's part of where we have this interest and how horses can
43:49
help other people. Talk a little bit about, I think
43:52
you mentioned before some of the things that you've been able to
43:55
horses that have been able to do and you said like that would
43:58
have taken me much longer to be able to get someone to open up,
44:02
talk about some of those things. And also some of the research
44:04
that you have seen, it's obviously very new modality in
44:10
the mental health field. There hasn't been a ton of
44:12
research. There's not necessarily an
44:14
incentive to research because there's not a lot of money
44:17
backing this like there would be with pharmaceuticals or things
44:22
like that. What are some of the things
44:23
you've either learned or seen that are OK?
44:27
We're kind of learning. Maybe this is what the horse is
44:29
doing. This is what is happening here,
44:32
even though going there sometimes just feels very
44:34
natural or almost even magical. Sure.
44:36
So you know, again, I go back to the arenas for change and why I
44:40
like it because it provides a non threatening opportunity with
44:45
the horses for someone to tell a story when they're really
44:48
telling their story, right? You know, they're telling a
44:50
story about the horses, but they're telling their story.
44:54
And so, you know, it's non threatening if I'm sitting there
44:58
in a cold. Not that it's cold, but even in
45:00
my office, right? You know, I've got an old couch
45:03
and comfy chair sort of thing. The horse just facilitates this
45:07
happening so much more, you know, And a lot of times it's
45:12
because you're talking about the horse, you're not talking about
45:17
them, right? The other part about it is, is I
45:20
really encourage people that watch this podcast to take a
45:24
look at horses for mental health, on horses for mental
45:26
health. They have a lot of the research
45:28
that comes out of the Horses and humans Research Foundation and
45:31
what they've learned about what horses do with regulating heart
45:36
rate. Now, teaching about breath and
45:39
the way we teach about breath is not saying, OK, you need to
45:42
breathe, right? We, we talk about, you know,
45:46
we're going to breathe because when we hold our breath, the
45:49
horse thinks maybe something scary around you, right?
45:53
Or again, like I said, if our heart rate is up, the horse
45:56
might think that we're a threat or something else is a threat.
45:59
So we're teaching a skill, but at the same time they don't know
46:04
that we're teaching him the skill, right?
46:06
We're teaching him the skill. We're teaching him something so
46:08
that the horse can feel safer. Yeah.
46:10
Have you found that people are able to regulate it more quickly
46:14
because they're not necessarily doing it for themselves to calm
46:16
down as much as you're going to do it for the horse to feel
46:20
safe, not necessarily for yourself to regulate and calm
46:23
your nervous system? Yes, absolutely.
46:26
I completely. Yes, that's exactly perfect way
46:32
to put it, for sure. The other thing is, is that when
46:35
they can identify, especially when you have a herd and they
46:38
can identify similarities in their herd from their own
46:42
experiences and relationships, something that they're outside
46:46
looking in. My gosh, that's exactly how I
46:49
act with this person. Or that reminds me of how I
46:53
interact with my boss, you know, And well, what is it that
46:58
reminds you about that? I mean, you don't have that in
47:00
an office. You're just talking about it.
47:02
You know, I'm really frustrated with this person or I'm this or
47:05
I'm that. But when you can see it in
47:07
something else, my gosh, I just saw that myself in that yeah,
47:12
that takes a long time in an office setting.
47:15
Yeah, well, and it's interesting also when you talk about the
47:18
stories, because the stories a lot of time are the things that
47:21
torture our mental state of mind, are these stories that we
47:24
have created for ourselves. The stories we're often still
47:27
living in, whether it's something that happened to us,
47:30
something that we did, some way we feel about ourselves, all
47:34
these thoughts and ideas that we have about what makes us who we
47:38
are. And so I wonder if part of the
47:40
horses is the ability to almost gain a different perspective or
47:43
maybe even release parts of our stories that are really painful.
47:47
Yes, I believe so. And again, a non threatening
47:51
way, right? I'm not talking about you
47:53
talking about this horse's story.
47:55
And you know, when in horses for mental health, if you go onto
47:58
the YouTube, Go onto YouTube and put in horses for mental health
48:01
campaign videos, They had some, I think I sent you to the one,
48:05
the one about breathe and about the veteran that the horse
48:08
taught him to breathe, right? And about the veteran that was
48:12
having thoughts of suicide and went to see the horses and each
48:16
one of the horses laid down and it was so moving right That so
48:22
there's amazing. They talk, they have ones about
48:24
grief. They have ones about people, you
48:26
know, struggling with addiction, right?
48:28
And the impact that the horses have on them.
48:30
And it's just amazing that there's so many of these
48:34
experiences that we've had where we've seen individuals who have
48:38
struggled with identifying things in themselves or
48:42
relationships, and they come out and they see this and they're
48:45
like, Oh my gosh, I just saw, right?
48:47
Which I don't know that they would have seen it any other
48:49
way. If we just kept telling them
48:50
this is what you're doing, This is why you're chasing people
48:53
away, This is why these problems are coming up.
48:55
Yeah, right. Yeah.
48:56
It is a pretty incredible experience.
48:59
It's still, I think, in many ways almost beyond description
49:03
what spending time with a horse, canoe, even just you talking
49:06
about, you know, suicide, someone who's not wanting to be
49:09
here anymore, and then they have this interaction or these
49:12
several interactions with horses, how that can change
49:15
their state of mind. I think if we were to break it
49:18
down, it probably does have to do with that, that there's
49:21
something that they do to help us change our state of mind.
49:24
And especially those pieces that we're living in that we're kind
49:28
of torturing ourselves with because we have these thoughts
49:30
just going again and again and again that make everything in
49:34
life really hard and make it hard for us to live.
49:37
So definitely very, very neat and very cool.
49:40
And one thing I think that you've said several times, a lot
49:44
of time it's just being with a horse.
49:45
It's not some regimented program or we're going to go do this.
49:49
And this is what you learn from this.
49:51
A lot of time it's just that open space with a horse.
49:54
Yes. Well, one of the things I know
49:56
we're running out of time, but at the conference, the Horses
49:59
and Human Research Conference, one of the things that just
50:02
really stuck out at me, right? They were talking about
50:05
utilizing horses, not just an occupational therapy like the
50:09
traditional hippotherapy, right? Where the movement and all of
50:12
that for some of the disabilities, it was amazing.
50:15
But they, what they found also were not just the physical
50:18
results, but the mental health results, right?
50:21
But they were talking about using horses and speech therapy
50:24
and about the crazy gains that they're making because of the
50:28
movement of the horse with the speech.
50:30
Where normally when they're doing speech therapy, they might
50:33
have a rhythm sort of thing going and then they have the
50:35
child, but they use the horse for that, right?
50:38
Or children that are non verbal or adults that are non verbal
50:42
getting on a horse starting to talk right because they have to
50:46
tell the horse to go right or to, you know, up to step up on
50:50
an obstacle or so that so they're doing this, which is
50:54
amazing. It was just amazing.
50:55
Some purpose behind it? Yeah.
50:57
Right. But one of the things that they
50:58
said, and I thought about this because an office, like a person
51:01
comes to your office and there's familiarity and there's comfort
51:04
in it, right? And safety and sharing things in
51:07
that sacred space. But we talked about people that
51:09
get stuck in therapy, right? And they're, and they're in
51:11
therapy for such a long time and there's not really a whole lot
51:14
of growth or movement. So they were talking about
51:18
something that kind of happened accidentally.
51:20
So they had these children that were coming, adolescents and
51:24
they were coming for therapy. And what happened was they
51:27
would, you know, they work together as a team and they came
51:29
up with what's the best horse for Shalise and what's the best
51:33
horse for Kathy? This is going to be a great fit.
51:35
You know how we do that rate, make sure we pair them up and
51:38
we're so thoughtful about this. And so they did that.
51:42
And then, and what happened with this one child is he started and
51:46
made really great gains and then he just kind of plateaued and
51:48
they thought, well, maybe he's not going to do any more, you
51:51
know, language wise and, and movement wise.
51:54
And then something happened and they couldn't use this one
51:56
horse, the one that was, had been always assigned to him and
51:59
had to go for some other class or something, or something was
52:02
going on. So they had to put him on a new
52:03
horse, and that put him on a new horse and made all these gains.
52:08
And So what they realized it wasn't necessarily that that
52:11
other horse was better for him, but because he had a change, he
52:15
had to pay more attention and it and it and he learned more in
52:20
that environment because he had to pay attention.
52:23
Whereas it's kind of like after so many times, we just stop
52:26
paying attention, we stop learning, right?
52:29
And so This is why sometimes for therapists, I think it's
52:32
important to have different trying different things, not the
52:35
exact same thing. There's some things that we must
52:38
teach self regulation. We must teach about breath.
52:41
We must teach about, let me bring myself back to the
52:44
present. Those are skills that we need to
52:45
teach, help someone be able to learn, be open and available to
52:50
learn in their brain. But then we need to be, we need
52:54
to be creative, right? To facilitate ongoing, continual
52:58
learning. And think about it.
52:59
Does a horse do the exact same thing all the time?
53:02
No. And so we bring them out there
53:04
and they see a different experience in this different
53:06
environment and they learn about themselves.
53:10
Yeah, that's really beautiful. We are getting close to time
53:14
plus quickly about your specific organization.
53:18
And then also a plug for Horses for Mental Health and what
53:21
they're doing. And then also, I guess just a
53:23
plug for this. This whole thing is part of the
53:25
podcast a thon where lots of podcasters are hooking up with
53:28
nonprofits and sharing what they do.
53:31
So definitely giving a shout out to all those.
53:33
But yeah, tell us about Samson's strength and then also Horses
53:36
for Mental Health. Sure.
53:37
So Samson Strength Sustainable Veterans Project ssvp.org We
53:42
started out after my husband retired and struggled.
53:45
We knew we needed to do some something for him, but also
53:47
realized there were many others that didn't have a place, a soft
53:51
landing place. So we started with transitional
53:53
housing, people that were struggling with homelessness,
53:55
publicness, giving them some skills and some encouragement.
53:59
So we started with that. We have one transitional home
54:02
that's completely done. And we've had veterans
54:04
transition through that with about 18 veterans over the past
54:07
few years that have come through and moved out and then gone on
54:10
their own. And then we have six other homes
54:12
that were in the process hoping, believing that we're going to
54:15
get them finished this year and that we'll be able to have
54:17
veterans transition through and have a safe place to be, but
54:20
also experience the farm and the horses.
54:22
So we became a part of the Horses for Mental Health last
54:25
year. In the 2025 campaign, we were
54:28
the second highest campaign fundraisers.
54:30
We were excited about that. Yeah, that's amazing.
54:33
And we really didn't have any experience in doing this, but we
54:35
just did it without knowing, kind of like Dave with the brush
54:38
and the horse. Now that I think about it, I
54:40
never thought about it that way, right?
54:41
He's like, well, why not? We'll just do this.
54:43
It'll work great. We don't.
54:44
Know the right way or the wrong way to do this we.
54:46
Didn't, so we did that and we got invited to come back again
54:51
and submit an application. So we did and we were accepted.
54:53
So we're part of 2026 and free with Shalise.
54:57
You've offered to generously offered to be a part of our
55:01
campaign and ambassador and share about what we do and use
55:04
your platform of the podcast to be able to speak with some of
55:08
the people that are involved in our campaign this year.
55:11
We're excited. We're going to start looking at
55:13
that real soon, right, and getting it out there.
55:15
I'm coming up. Good.
55:17
And so during the month of May, mental Health Month, just for
55:20
mental health, that's their huge fundraiser.
55:23
You can go on, tell Horses for Mental Health, just Google
55:25
search, it will come up and then you'll also find the Horses and
55:28
Humans Research Foundation and all the research is on there
55:31
that they have compiled, which is great to learn about the
55:34
benefits of Horses for Humans. And again, the Horses for Mental
55:38
Health during the month of May, that is our fundraiser.
55:40
The platform is offered completely free to us.
55:43
I raise $5, I get $5. I don't pay for platform fees.
55:49
They also think that the other thing that they do is so if you
55:51
say, hey, Kathy, I just want to give you an anonymous donation.
55:54
It doesn't have to go through the platform, but they'll record
55:57
it in the platform to show that we've raised this much money.
56:00
Or if you, yeah, if you want to say one of our things, our feed
56:03
guy, the feed store, local feed store, donated a bag of food,
56:07
special food that one of our horses needs after he'd have to
56:09
pay for that. We just said he's donating this
56:12
value of food for the year, right?
56:15
And it was I think $350.00 or $400.00 of that type of food for
56:19
the whole year for her, right? And it's like a supplement.
56:23
Those things got recorded in the amount of money that we raised,
56:26
which was great. Yeah, yeah.
56:28
And I guess just a quick reality check with all these programs,
56:31
they are everybody I've talked to who has done them doing
56:34
incredible things. But the reality is like horses
56:37
do cost money, funding is difficult.
56:40
You can't usually, I've never heard of insurance covering it
56:43
because we don't necessarily have that scientific proof to
56:45
back it and there is no organization at large making
56:50
money off this. So really those donations to
56:53
these organizations, to you guys that are doing this make a huge
56:57
difference because it is not a cheap in Denver endeavor.
57:01
It is not an easy endeavor, but as we've talked about, as I've
57:05
talked to people, I see it time and time again.
57:08
The results are just absolutely incredible, literally saving
57:11
people's lives sometimes. And I will tell you that they're
57:14
starting to do insurance is starting to cover things like we
57:18
were talking about with the speech therapy where they can
57:20
incorporate horses or physical therapy or occupational therapy.
57:24
One of the other things is they're starting to look at it
57:26
as a recreational therapy. So the VA has received funding.
57:30
So the other part to know is the majority of places that I know
57:34
and like us, we don't charge. People come out, they don't pay.
57:37
And so like you said, the whole cost of caring for those
57:40
animals, you know, we have 21 equine, which includes donkeys,
57:44
right? And those big horses and they
57:46
would rescue them all. And so they have supplements,
57:49
they have veterinary care. It's probably between 20 and
57:52
$30,000 a year to care for 21 horses or animals, right?
57:58
You're where it's really green. I'm like, I feel like you might
58:00
be underestimating it, but you have a little more grass.
58:03
We have more grass, right? And we have very generous guy
58:06
that helps us with the hay bales.
58:07
He's a veteran and he's a pilot and he, you know, he, we pay
58:11
very little for that. Hey, we're very grateful for the
58:13
hay that he we get from him. But The thing is, is that it
58:16
does. And that's comes out of the
58:18
pockets of Kathy and Dave, right?
58:20
Because we believe in it and we, we feel like we're helping these
58:23
horses, but at the same time, we're definitely helping humans,
58:26
right? And so the Forces for mental
58:28
health campaign, the money that comes out of that campaign, all
58:31
it goes towards is caring for our horses.
58:33
That's it. You know, everything that we did
58:35
last year, we didn't, we have no paid employees, zero paid
58:38
employees. Dave and I are paid.
58:40
No one's paid. People that come out and and
58:43
spend the time with us, They don't pay to come do that, you
58:46
know. So the care and and maintenance
58:48
of the horses in the property as far as fencing and things like
58:52
that is what came out of that. Courses for mental health money
58:55
that we raised last year and what we'll raise again this year
58:57
will help pay for that. All their veterinary care, all
58:59
of that. Yeah, that's great.
59:01
And I want to give a shout out too for Canine Equine Alliance
59:04
because they're a nonprofit that their job and you're going to
59:07
have him on, I think, David Vieira.
59:09
Scheduled today, so he's going to be on.
59:12
Because what all that they do, they don't have an equine
59:15
program, they don't have a canine program.
59:17
They fund us. Like when I say fund us, like
59:20
they'll say, what do you need, Dave?
59:22
You know, and Dave will say, OK, I need these supplements, I'm
59:24
getting them off of Amazon or I need a pallet of alfalfa or
59:28
whatever we need. If they have the funds, they
59:31
will buy it direct and have it shipped to us, right?
59:35
So they don't send us money, they purchase the materials.
59:38
That's what they do. Amazing organization.
59:40
Yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, thanks so much again for
59:44
being here. Thank you for the work you guys
59:46
are doing. I'm so glad that Dave is OK, and
59:49
it's always great to talk with you about experience with
59:52
horses. I think we both know that that
59:54
if you take time to do something with a horse, it's going to
59:57
change you for the better. So especially if you do that in
59:59
that way where you're giving the horse space and giving yourself
1:00:02
some space, it's a pretty incredible experience.
1:00:04
So thanks again for being here. Thanks for having me.
1:00:08
Thank you for joining us and learning about horses that heal
1:00:11
and the humans who help them. We hope you'll continue with us
1:00:14
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Please share with your friends anyone who loves horses or
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anyone who might be struggling and could benefit from this
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message. If you have felt the healing
1:00:30
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1:00:33
mission, please reach out. We want to hear your story.
1:00:36
As we say goodbye, always remember that the horse is
1:00:40
always there to help you heal.