Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 37, Season 2: The Celebrity Psyche: Identity, Attachment & the Cost of Being Seen

Transcript

Episode 37, Season 2: The Celebrity Psyche: Identity, Attachment & the Cost of Being Seen · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast, where we talk all
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: things life, love and relationships in the psychology behind them.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: I'm your co host Raina Butcher here with our host,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: doctor Sarah Hensley, the owner, founder, and CEO of the
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: lovedc relationship coaching services. You can find her at the
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: lovedog dot com or on any social media handle at
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: doctor Sarah Hensley. Hi. Hi, what's up? Oh?
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Not much excited about today's topic. I think it's gonna
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: be interesting.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: It's gonna be very interesting. I'm gonna let you announce
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: it because you are, in fact the celebrity.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, No, is there like an F list celebrity
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: like a G list? I'm not gonna say that one. No,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: but I wanted to talk about the celebrity psyche. Yeah,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: because as my platform has grown, I've had the opportunity
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: to work with more celebrity clients, to be on more
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: celebrity podcasts, and I find them fascinating. I just do.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: And one of the interesting things, like the most interesting
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: thing I have learned from working with celebrities the ones
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: you think sort of come across as the most like
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: down to earth and come from a hard background, and
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: they tend to be like the least authentic, and then
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: the ones that you think, oh that they might be difficult,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: they're intimidating, they're like the most nice and authentic. That's
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: been my experience.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Anyway, I could see that, I could see it.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: So, you know, not naming anybody, obviously, I would never
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: name my clients, but just a little sort of thing
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: to throw out.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Side note.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Little side note is that you just don't you can't
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: rely on what you see in the media because the
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: media spins everything. They weigh the way that they want
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: to spin it.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: I want to go in so many directions here just because.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: I know it's like where is this going to take us?
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: We might try so many different directions because there's a
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: lot of side notes. I want to tell that.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Well, when you think about like the downfall of a
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: lot of celebrities and how that looks from you know, yes,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: a media standpoint, but really just from things that actually
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: have happened, like legit things that have happened. And some
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: of it may be some you know, some conspiracy theories,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: but you know, I mean, obviously this only comes to
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: mind because I recently just watched the p Diddy documentary.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: But you know that is one that you think you
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: kind of see the evolution of his fame now if
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: you you know, they talk about his childhood and things
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: that happened in his childhood, and of course like the
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: role that his father played just in the community itself,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: and how that influenced him, even though he lost his
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: father at a very young age, which of course also
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: influences him. But just the evolution of that fame and
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: what it did to him.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is one of those interesting things because attachment
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: dynamics do play a role and that's going to be
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: part of the conversation today. And a lot of celebrities
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: are famous in childhood and then they grow up famous
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: and so attachment formation is happening while they are exposed
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: to this public pressure and these external dynamics, which is
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: really what I want to talk about today.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's dig in. Let's do it girl. Who
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: where are we going to start?
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Going?
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: Where are we going to start?
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: When I came up with this topic, it was really
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: because I don't know about you, but all over my
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: social media is the Blake Lively justin Baldoni drama.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I haven't seen anything about that.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: So different, Well that would be a whole episode, my dear. Okay,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: this is when we need the Moonlighting podcast. But essentially,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Taylor Swift got pulled into it too because she was
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Blake Lively's former best friend and former being a part
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: of what happened in the lawsuit, she tried to extort Taylor.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Taylor's like, all hell extorts me. Don't ever try to
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: extort Taylor Swift. You will not win. I promise you that. Anyway, Essentially,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: it was that movie It Ends with Us, which I
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: thought was a crap movie. So I'm sorry, but if
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: that was Blake's work, Blake, you just missed the mark
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: on that one. I'm sorry. I'm just an honest person.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: But I didn't enjoy the movie. I thought it was
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: not a good representation of domestic violence. As a domestic
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: violence survivor myself, I did not feel it was an
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: accurate description of what domestic violence really looks and feels like. Yeah,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: I was highly disappointed in that movie. And maybe that's
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: because Justin Baldoni didn't get a chance to actually make
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: the movie he wanted to make, and that was what
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: the whole controversy was about. But AnyWho, all of a
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: sudden yesterday or the day before, the text between Taylor
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: and Blake were unsealed, and actually Taylor was the one
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: who voluntarily gave them over. Blake tried to extort her
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: by saying, I'm going to release ten years of our
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: text messages as friends and air out all your dirty
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: laundry if you don't support me, and Taylor was like,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: hold on a second, Okay, we're not really friends anymore
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: and limning to just go ahead and hand these texts
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: on my own accord over to Justin Baldoni's team. So
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: you just can't win with her. You can't. You can't
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: out Day, I can'nout Witter. You can't Outwitter. And I
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: don't know why people think they can. But interestingly enough,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: you know, celebrity uh, the celebrity psyche is not a diagnosis.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: It is really a context or situationally dependent profile. And
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: as a social psychologist, we are all about the power
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: of the situation. We believe that the power of the
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: situation far outweighs people's quote unquote stable personality traits and
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: personality psychologists and social psychologists have been at work for
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: like fifty years over this, and they are finally conceding
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: we won. Power of the situation does in most cases
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: outweigh people's individual differences when that situation is extreme enough,
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: and fame is a very extreme situation for somebody to
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: be in. And so there are sort of three main
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: things that shape the celebrity psyche. One is an externalized identity.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: The second thing is reward system conditioning, and I've talked
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: about that a lot on the podcast, but I will
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: review it again. And then power and attachment amplification. So
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: I really want to just go through those things. So
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: first is externalized identity, and sort of the goat of
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: research and identity formation was Eric Ericksson. He talked about
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: the developmental stage of identity versus role confusion, especially during adolescence,
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: and adolescence is a time when we really form a
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: stable internal identity. So what is ida It is your values,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: It is your belief systems, It is the way that
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: you relate to other people. You have to have some
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: sort of stability with those things to be able to
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: have consistent and stable traits in adulthood. So what ends
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: up happening to celebrities is that this should be an
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: internal thing like who am I? That self concept what
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: do I believe in? What do I value? How do
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I relate to other people? Am I extroverted? Am I introverted?
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Am I somebody who likes to be around a lot
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: of people? Am I somebody who is funny to other people?
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: You know, there's all these attributes of relation to other people,
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: and so you start to figure out what those things are.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: Well, and I would think if you were famous, it
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: gets very skewed.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Well, that's yeah, that's exactly you know, kind of where.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: I'm getting ahead of our I'm yeah, okay.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Essentially, when values and beliefs and self trust and your
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: moral compass and relational consistency, those things are not consistent
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: within yourself and they become externalized because of fame. It
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: means your values and your beliefs and your moral compass
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: become dependent on what other people think of you versus
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: you creating that based on what you think about yourself.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, fame really disrupts the process of
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: identity formation. And I do think that's why we see
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: child actresses and actors and models faar far worse most
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: of the time than people who kind of found their
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: fame in adulthood. Sure, because they had privacy, and they
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: had a life of their own, and they had probably
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: more stable identity formation, you know, before they entered fame.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: So fame really disrupts that process. And so instead of
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: who am I, that is the question of self concept,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: who am I? The question becomes who am I to them,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: my audience, the people outside of myself? And I mean
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: that really creates this sort of reflected self identity loop
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: where other people's reactions become the definition of who you are.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: I can be so dangerous.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I mean, think about this, you know,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: or inflated Yeah, oh my gosh, you know, think about this.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: We're literally saying the self stops living inside the person,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: and it starts living outside of the person and becomes
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: dependent upon other people's reactions to you, which you have
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: no control over for the most part, and the self
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: starts sort of living as a mirror of public response.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: And this definitely leads to identity instability, you know, emotional
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: over reliance on feedback, fear of not existing anymore. So
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: if your self identity lives outside of you, there is
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: sort of this theoretical place where you could stop existing
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: if you become irrelevant, if your fame disappears and the
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: ability to really make grounded decisions without validation can slip away.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, see that.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: And so every time a celebrity crashes out, every time
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: they get a divorce, every time a big decision happens,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: every time, you know, we see like a blake, and
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: justin situation, everybody goes, who are these people? What are
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: their personalities?
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Are they narcissistic? And really we're looking at a situation
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: where the fundamental pieces of who they are have now
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: become externalized. So the answer to that question is we
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: don't know who they are, right because who are they
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: without their fame? Who are they without who are they
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: without someone reacting to them? And I've just dipped my
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: toe into this world. And I think my goal as
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: some of these projects that are about to come up
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: that I cannot yet announce, of course, and I do
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: believe it's going to put me in a different position
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: fame wise, which is really scary in some ways to
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: think about it, but also exciting. It's like, how do
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: I stay really grounded and not let that happen to me?
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: I don't want that to happen to me. I'll do
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: anything for that to not happen to me. I want
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: to be very identity stable. I want to be very authentic.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be swayed by public opinion of myself.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: And I think there are celebrities that do have a
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: more stable relationship to their fame and celebrities that do not.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, at the end of the day,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: I think we like to point the finger at their
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: ego or to call them narcissistic, or to say they're
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: mentally ill, but really so much of it is identity displacement.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: And so you know, there's conditioning that happens there. And
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: we've talked on this podcast a lot about conditioning, specifically
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: intermittent reinforcement, which is a very very powerful principle that
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: creates both anxiety and addiction. That is the way that
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: the anxious, preoccupied attachment is formed, and it is inevitable
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: that celebrities experience this. I experience this sure. Every time
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: I put a video out there, does it get a
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: lot of likes, does it get a lot of comments,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: does it go viral? Or is it a flop? And
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: so every move a celebrity makes, they're thinking about it
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: in terms of what reaction is this going to get.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: How much attention is this going to get? How much
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: is this going to elevate my name, my brand, my music,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: my art, whatever.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: My wheels are spinning right now because from an evolutionary
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: standpoint and the availability of fame to everyone now because
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: of social media. Because of social media, it's going to
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: create an entire worldly identity crisis.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: Oh potentially.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: It's like, it's scary that the way you just put that. Yeah,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: my brain just you know, blew up a little bit
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: because that's so true. Is although a lot of people
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: experience it on a much smaller scale, they're still experiencing it.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Who liked your Facebook post? Who liked your TikTok?
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: You know, and think about how easy it is to
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: go viral.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is over like the silliest stuff.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, Like anybody can become famous overnight.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and then easily tank. Yes overnight too. I
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: mean I think of a lot of people that come
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: to mind, I hate naming names.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: They got canceled.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Canceled by Taylor Swift has been popping up on my
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: playlist a lot because well, obviously, because the Internet just
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: talks to itself, and like all the apps talk to
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: each other, to say that it doesn't like to think
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: you have any control, Like what you listen to on
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Spotify is absolutely affecting or TikTok algorithm and such. And
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: so we are in this mass connected world where we
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: just have access to everybody and a curated version. But
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: celebrities that have massive fame, we seem as a society
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: to believe that we have access to all of them
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: all of the time. And I can't even imagine living
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: in a world where there are paparazzi living outside my home.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: I can't go to a restaurant and eat a meal.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: I can't go to a football game without walking behind
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: a bulletproof wall. Can you imagine that?
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Though it's a life I would never want.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think about that, like, I like, give
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: me maybe like a little bit of fame, like just
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: a little bit, like make me a make me someone
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: who was successful in my mission. That's what I want,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: right And with that, I think has to come a
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: certain level of notoriety or else you're not reaching a
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: lot of people. Correct. But I don't want that life.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: I don't want that life of paparazzi outside my Kardashian life.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: I know I don't want a Kardashian life. I don't
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: even want to. I don't want a Taylor Swift life.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I don't want any of that. Yeah, they're one and
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: the same. Yeah, although I do. You know, people probably
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: think I'm weird for sticking up for Taylor so much,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: But I do think Taylor has a much healthier relationship
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: to her fame than most people on her level. I mean,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: she just she doesn't have her comments on, she doesn't
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: really log into her official accounts, she lets other people
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: manage them. She has like a spy account that she
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: just is a normal person on that nobody knows who
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: she is smart, and she doesn't read the stuff about
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: herself because I mean, I don't even like to read
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: my comments. You did it for a really long time,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: not because I'm insecure, but just because it's a little
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: taxing and I don't want my attention there and it
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: disregulates me, even like I've had to, you know, grow
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: in that a lot over the past two years to
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: not allow it to get me to this point where I,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: you know, want to go off on random strangers, you know,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: because they said something really mean.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it, because I'm a you know, I
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: got your back, girl.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: I know you do. And that's the whole thing with
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Taylor and Blake is like the text messages that Taylor
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: sent Blake were just like, I have your back. I'll
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: do anything for you. You're my girl, And she called
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Justin Baldoni the B word and said he had a
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: tiny violin. But I'm sorry. If somebody was supposedly like
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: sexually harassing you and treating you terribly, I wouldn't like
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: that dude either, and I'd be like, girl, I got
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: your back.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: So all I learned from those text messages is that
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Taylor's a ride or die but here we go. Okay.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: So fame really conditions the brain through intermittent reinforcement because
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: you're gonna do some pr things. It's going to land,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: it's going to go big. People are gonna be talking
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: about it, people are going to be posting about it,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: and then you're gonna do things and it's gonna flop.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Nobody pays attention and you cannot predict what that will be,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: and so it's intermittent, meaning you cannot predict when the
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: reward comes. And that will always create anxiety, and it
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: will always create addiction and It is the construct that
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: underlies all it, including addiction to people, gambling, drugs, et cetera.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: You know, applause, praise, headlines. They released dopamine and they
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: so it messes with your dopamine reward circuit. So what
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: do these celebrities do. They get addicted to it, so
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: they get more outlandish. You know. A good one I
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: can think of is sweet little Justin Bieber. I mean,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: we've all watched him grow up and then we see
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: him crash out on Instagram and then we see him
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: pull these crazy stunts and we're just like, what are
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: you doing, dude, Like you're so talented and you know,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: you have the cutest little face, and he's.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Just coming into his manhood. He's just now.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: And you're a dad, and you just he's the guy
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: you just want to root for. You just want to
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: root for him. You just want to see him succeed.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: And then he has like a drunken crash out on
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Instagram will start it right, And so I will always
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: be rooting for Justin Bieber because man, he his voice
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: just smells like butter. Yeah, at the end of the
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: day and we get to see him at Coachella, I'm
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: so excited.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: That is exciting.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna be front. I'm going to like, I don't
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: know what you're gonna be doing at Coachella, but what
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be doing is waiting right in front
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: of the stage so I can be right front and
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: center for Justin Bieber.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm just.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Thrilled that I get to go, honestly, because we're gonna
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: have I would have never thought that. Like, if you'd
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: asked me even six months ago, Rena, do you ever
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: see yourself at Coachella?
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I would have said absolutely freakingnot never ever.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: You know, my husband's scheduled on golf trick.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the music festival days were over, but you know we're.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Bringing it back and it's all about the outfit.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: Oh girl, I've already been shopping.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Are you up? I'm okay. So essentially, what happens in
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: intermitt reinforcement is that the nervous system learns that visibility
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: and praise equals regulation. The only way then they can
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: learn to regulate their own nervous system is if something
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: goes big, if they get big attention, and I cannot
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: think of a worse life, and then we get the
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: people without empathy that say, well, celebrities do it to themselves.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Do you think anybody really knows this going into it?
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Do you think anybody really knows that their nervous system
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: is going to become completely hijacked and that they will
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: have no sense of privacy. Nobody that goes into the
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: fame world ever really expects to be a Justin Bieber
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: or a tailor Swift or just artist. They're just artists
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: who just fell in love with their craft and people
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: also noticed that they were really good at their craft.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: And so I really hate that, Well, they did it
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: to themselves, they chose this. No, I don't think anybody
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: can actually truly comprehend the identity, the nervous system implications
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: until you're really there. Yeah, and so can we just
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: have And I'm not trying to villainize anybody, and I'm
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: not trying to put anybody on a pedestal, not trying
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: to say we should worship celebrities or we should not
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: hold them accountable. I am not allergic to accountability, like
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I'm in the business of accountability, And I don't think
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: anybody really knows what it's going to be like or
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: that expects that they will ever get to that level
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: until they're there. Yeah, so let's just have let's just
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: have a balanced perspective. Well, I don't know about you,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: but I wouldn't feel safe in my home today without
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: a security system.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Agreed, Agreed. And I don't know about you, but making
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: security easy is a top priority for me, and Cove
• 20:25
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• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 20:28
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• 20:31
  Speaker 1: their website, you fill out all the information. They have
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: everything you need from the doorbell camera, the motion detector lights,
• 20:39
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• 20:42
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• 20:46
  Speaker 1: a dollar a day.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's amazing because I don't know about you, but
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: I get a lot of packages and I don't want
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: them stolen.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: No, those pirates are bad. So if protecting your home
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• 21:00
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• 21:14
  Speaker 1: know that you heard about Cove from this podcast.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you. Cove for that generous discount.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Cove.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: And then we have attachment style, which is something I
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: love to talk about, right, and so we really see
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: attachment style amplification. I can tell immediately, I could tell
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: you all day long with probably ninety eight percent confidence
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: the attachment styles of the celebrities that I follow, because
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: I can see the ones that are like the energizer
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: bunnies for attention, Hello, anxious, preoccupied. I can see the
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: ones who are more extreme and volatile, and then we
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: don't hear from them for a little while. They sort
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: of go dark, I fear full avoid it. And then
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: we see the ones that are just really elusive, really
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: mysterious that they just really try to keep to themselves
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: until the project comes out, and then they do their
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: promotions and then they check the boxes and then they
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: go dark again. I think about like a George Clooney.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: You never hear from George Clooney unless he's got a
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: movie coming out, and then he does his promos and
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: then he goes back to his life. Right, he's probably
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: a da You didn't even get married until he was
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: like what fifty something? Okay, hell, hi, I guess mis
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: a avoidance seems a little bit obvious, but you know, again,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: I can't say for sure, but it does amplify attachment
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: because if your identity, your caregivers in attachment formation are
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: the mirrors of your identity when you're kids, That's how
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: attachment forms, right, They're the first mirrors of what does
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: it mean to be you? What does it mean to
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: be close to someone? And so when that then externalizes
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: and becomes formed based on a mass audience, your attachment style,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: of course, is going to be amplicated and exacerbated by
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: the outside forces, whether or not they react to you
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: or not. And so I just find it really really
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: interesting to see those that are constantly just doing something new,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: putting themselves out there, even if what they're making isn't
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: that good or valuable, Versus the creators, the artists, the
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: actors that really are selective about their projects and really
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: put time and effort and energy into it and release
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: things that are great, versus like that, I'll take whatever
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: you give me to me. Those are like the anxious, preoccupieds.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I think of like the the line
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: of like you call it Peyton Manning and ask him
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: to do a commercial and he's like, I'll do it. Yeah.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: You know, there was a point in time after his
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: NFL career he was in like in every.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Commercial, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll whenever you want.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: He does seem like a precious little people. Please.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: They're not right. I don't know, maybe not. You know,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I don't want to They're theories. I'm not saying this
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: for sure. I don't have access to their internal world.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I'm not doing an official assessment, but I think there
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: is research that shows that the attachment style does become
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: amplified in the public eye. So that's interesting. And I
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: think that power dynamics, oh my gosh, power that is
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: such an interesting social psychological construct. Power reduces empathy. We've
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: studied that there's a concept called moral drift, and we
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: saw this in the Iraq War in the war in Afghanistan.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: And forgive me that I think it was the Iraq
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: War where there was that group of soldiers and there
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: was a female soldier included in that, and they were
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: imprisoned for war crimes for actually beating the enemy, like
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: capturing and then just I remember that using the bathroom
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: on these people that they captured and beating them and
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: taking photographs and just absolutely torturing toxic power. Toxic power.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: And that's moral drift because it's like the power it
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: does something that just shrinks the empathy availability in the brain.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: And I and I think that that is one of
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: the most dangerous aspects of probably fame, is the power
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: that it can give you. I have met celebrities where
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: you can tell literally that people just fall on their
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: feet and just are do whatever they say.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, rules don't apply to them, the rules.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Do not apply. There above the rules, and I never want.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: To every bed. It is the perfect example, perfect example,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: quite literally, the perfect example. So if you if you
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: watch the you know, the documentary. Obviously again their theories, yeah,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: there allegations, but you know when you when you watch allegedly, yes,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: but when you watch it, you're like, you know, if
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: you're in our age group and you've lived through that
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: error of Tupac Biggie, you know, you're like, I mean,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: your mind is blowing. You watch it.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: He killed Tupac and Biggie and then Big Papers on
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: funeral Man. He went on the internet or went online
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: and on TV and danced in a white suit like
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: he was all sad about it.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's wild to watch.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Like as I was watching it, like my mouth was
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: just kind of like this the whole time.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: And I'd look over at Josh and be like, I
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: know because.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: When you were rapping those songs and like at that time,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: like I don't ever you were like, man, Biggie likes
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: be so sad. You know, we did it allegedly, allegedly allegedly,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: This is my opinion, of course, and power really does
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: change cognition, and it it reduces empathy, accuracy, It increases
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: self referential thinking, so of course you're thinking what about me, me, me, me, me,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: me me, And it weakens your perspective taking. Your objectivity
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: declines quite a bit.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which leads me to a question about deeper mental illness.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: You know, when it comes to fame. You know, I
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: feel like all these things could you know, they're dangerous
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: because they lead to deeper mental illness.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: They're going to exacerbate any predisposition. And then I think
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: if you don't have extremely strong support systems in place,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: it's almost like mental illness is just inevitable.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think about Brittany, you know, and
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: I'm a huge supporter of Brittany and I always.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Be the biggest Britney Spears fan. When I was eighteen
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: years old, I wanted to be Britney Spears more than anything.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: I learned all the dances to the videos same. I mean,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: I was just she was like the icon of artis
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: your girl next door?
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Like she just had that wholesome but very beautiful like
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: every girl wanted that look look. And I mean not
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: to mention like she could dance, and I mean I
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: guess she could sing. Yeah, it made her sound like
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: she could sing, but you know, and then just to
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: see the way that she spiraled is incredibly sad. But
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: you know, I've read her memoir and it's just, you know,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: it's sad. It's very every every piece of it extremely sad,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: incredibly sad.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: And just the way that.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Her family exploited her, Oh, I mean that's a huge
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: piece of it.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: And I really look at like, look at Britney Spears
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: versus Taylor Swift. Yeah, look at the stability of Taylor's
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: family support and how if you watch the documentary you
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: know that just was released, how everybody's all in on
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: just making sure as a family they are okay.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Right, and I think that that when you have the
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: family members that are able to stay grounded, or that
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: support system that is able to stay grounded, maybe when
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: you do get a little too big for your breches
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: and you don't feel as grounded, it's those people that
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: are able to bring you back.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Right now, take a seat. Check y'all say, yeah, take
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: a seat, baby girl. You know, but I think I
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: don't think Britney Spears has ever been in control of
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: her own life.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: No, and her family were. I mean I think that
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: they were upset.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: They saw her as cash can that's it, and they
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: worked her to death and they essentially made her they
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: made her mentally ill.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're made I mean obviously predispositions. But because
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: and I think some of Britney's issues now is just
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe I don't know some of the side
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: effects of just being on antipsychotics for so long.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: You know, it's very We see some of the signs
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: and it's so sad to watch.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I still love her, though, I Mean, I just
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: bought a ninety two dollars T shirt TOR shirt, Britney
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Spears Tor shirt Brittany I saw with the shirt because
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: I love Britney spears.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: I am Team Britney for life, always, always, because the
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: talent of that era, like, there was nobody compared to her.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: There was nobody out there.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: No, she was like there.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Nobody could dance like that.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: She was the princess.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Somebody could dance like that while singing. Nobody could shock
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: in awe you like she could, but also leave you
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: feeling like and like admiring her at the same Maybe
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: not the Medonaicus Janet.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like Janet obviously had that, but again it's like
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: a different error.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: It's a different era. She was like it like the
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: late eighties, early nineties era, and then Brittany was like
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: the late nineties early two thousands era. Yeah, it was
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: just passing the torch essentially. And yeah, it's just so
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: it's so sad, and fame had a lot to do
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: with that, right because I mean, when she was trying
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: to enter motherhood and getting married and she was trying
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: to take control of her life and make those decisions,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: they were just merciless in the media with her merciless.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: And I mean speaking of the Jacksons, I mean, Michael
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: is a perfect exing yeah too.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, so absolutely, and so I really really hate
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: that they did it to themselves narrative. If I absolutely hate.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: That, I agree, I don't like that narrative either.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: And then you know, personal fragmentation. Just celebrities have to
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: develop multiple selves that most people don't have to. Most
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: people have like somewhat of a public persona, like your
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: work self, and then your family self. But then think
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: about all the selves you have to have. You know,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: as a famous person, you have your public persona, you
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: have your family private life, you have your brand life,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: you have your relational self, you have your survival self.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Most people don't have to have all of those things. Yeah,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: and I'm just dipping my toe in it. And we
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: were just talking about things like brand cohesiveness when we
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: were here. How do we how are we authentic while
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: also making sure that we don't deviate from the brand.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: And elevating the brand while also staying true to who
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: we are. Yes, And it's it's a teetering balund right.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: It is a teetering balance because I just crave authenticity
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: so much. But what I have learned in my tiny
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: little speck of fame and my g list celebrity life
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: or whatever, is that there's always going to be someone
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: that judges you and your intentions and misinterprets you and
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: misunderstands you, and you have no control over that.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Well in comparison, right, Comparison is such a big piece
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: of it too, Joy. Yeah, And so when you're like,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: you know, just this morning, Josh and I are listening
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: to their podcasts. You know, because the podcast, guys, we
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: love it so much and we want it and.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: We've put like, no, I don't want to say we've
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: put no effort into a ton of effort. We put
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: no promotion into it because we haven't had the time
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: to promote it.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, we've put a ton of energy. I mean
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: we're here every other week seeing the episodes. Yeah, we're
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: on you know, we got to get ready, we put
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: makeup on all those things. So it's not that there's
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: been no efforts, just no no promotion and no no
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: real like just so tell your strategy, Yeah, so tell
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: your friends. But you know, our goal is we want
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: to elevate the podcast in a way that stays true
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: to who we are, stays true to our values and beliefs,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: but also makes it more visible to the public. Because
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, even this subject alone I'm sitting over here thinking, gosh,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: if every person that even starts to go into the
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: lane of fame, if they had this as like a
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: predisposition to going into it, and they had this knowledge
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: so that they could just have a little bit more awareness,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: could it help them in the.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Laws and go into it with a real good support structure,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: a solid therapist, like shoring up your family dynamics and boundaries. Yeah,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: because you can get ahead of yourself really quick. Oh,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: it happens really fast. It happens so fast, and I'm
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: one to know how fast it can happen. I went
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: from an absolute nobody to having millions of followers and
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: less years. So and then, you know, with the projects
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: coming up, I'm like, oh wow. Like I mean, I'm like, yeah,
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, your attorney starts saying NDAs, and you know,
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: my housekeeper is like going to sign an NDA. It's like,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not doing anything shady. Yeah, but does she have
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: access to my underwear drawer?
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: You know, like she does. Like, I don't know, Yeah,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the right thing to do is, right,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: you know, she might get heart up some day. I
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: love her, I trust her. Just kidding. Hannah but like
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: you get hard up for many of the tabloids are
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: going to come out in a few years and be like,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: what does doctor Hensley wear underneath your clothes?
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know, it's crazy stuff like that.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: No, you're not wrong, You're not wrong girl. So I see,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: I could see where it could spiral very quickly.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: And then I think just back to attachment and growing up.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: You know, so many celebrities come from instability, from trauma,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: from neglect, but yet they're ultra talented. And then just
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: fame becomes that regulation strategy. And again, the regulation doesn't
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: come from inside the self. It comes from people reacting
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: to you. And then if it stops working, you have
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: no identity, you have no ability to regulate your nervous system,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: you have no sense of self.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it gets dangerous, it gets dangerous.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: That's dangerous mental health territory. And I think that is
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: exactly what we are seeing in Britney Spears. And I think,
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can't diagnose her, obviously, I don't diagnose anybody,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: but I can only I will say, I can only
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: imagine that that has been a big part of what
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Brittany has dealt with.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the question is how do we get this
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: information into every talent agency in America and across the world. Right,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: so they have this at their disposal.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know, because if you had
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: it at your disposal, you would have somebody that had
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: a better, more stable, more lasting career. Yeah, oh for sure,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: versus the people that are like I don't know, like
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: the vanilla ices of the world have no one.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: And done, some one and done. Yeah. Because it allows
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: like when you're able to stay grounded and who you
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: truly are and in your authenticity, well it allows for
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: more creative ability. Yes, so yeah, it would only make sense. Yes, absolutely,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: So how do we do that? Tell us somebody's out there,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: tell us Ye'll tell you that we do this talent
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, or you have access to talent agencies.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: And so here's the real paradox of fame. Like, here's
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: what I want to leave it with. It's like it's
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: power with powerlessness. You have power, but in some cases
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: you're powerless.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: What a paradox.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Gut wrenching.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: There's so much admiration with deep insecurity. Think about that
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: paradox and then tons of visibility to the world with
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: complete identity loss. We'll leave you with that.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's heavy.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: It's indeed, And so I think at the end of
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: the day, you know, the celebrity psyche is not always
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: about ego. It's not always about narcissism. True NPD is rare.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: It's about identity displacement. It's about attachment amplification, it's about
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: you know, dopamine conditioning, it's about power disruption and distortion.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that is a very interesting way to
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: leave it off. And also, if you're a celebrity listening
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: to this podcast, I do coach celebrities. Yes, SARK is
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: a great resource that could really help you maybe through
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: some of the identity crisis that you may be experiensed.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: I love my celebrity clients and some of the most
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: beautiful souls. And I have one celebrity client in particular,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: and of course I would never say his name, but
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: like he's a list and has been on some really
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: amazing TV shows and he has probably one of the
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: most beautiful hearts.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: That's awesome and that's always good to hear.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it has been an absolute joy to work
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: with him in his journey and if he of course
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: started before I stopped individual coaching.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not gonna lie when we go to we
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: are headed in March to the iHeart Podcast Swords Like,
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: I'm just like secretly crossing my fingers that Chloe will be.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: There, because we want to meet Chloe.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: I want to meet Chloe because she just seems to me.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, out of all the Kardashians, she seems the
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: most authentic.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: She's my favorite Kardashian for sure. I can't like him
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: because I like Taylor too much.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I still love Kim too.
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: You can love him both. There's a role against it.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: You can't and who knows? Who knows they can't. Maybe
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: they made amends. I don't know now, I mean now
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: that now that Kim is no longer with Kanye.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: It just feels yucky inside. I can't listen to the reputation.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: And I'm a fan of the Kardashians, and I've watched
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: all the seasons, you know, and once Kim really removed
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: herself from that relationship, she saw the toxicity. I mean
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: she saw that.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, I've never watched the Kardashians. She I just like
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Chloe because the clips of her being like super real,
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: like she just she takes everybody down on us.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she does.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: And I like that because you know, we value honesty. Yes,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: And I feel like the clips I've seen of her
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: just being like.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh, there's been so many of like down.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: She'll she'll call her own sister and mom.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Out, you know, like because gosh, Chris and Kim the
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: lie Like there's clips of them actually like you just
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: have to watch it.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: But Chris, you know, he love to.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Start watching it because I mean something mind numbing.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: I know it associated it definitely is my numbing. But
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: you know, Chris obviously is somebody I think who really
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: enjoys her vodka martinis. But then in this one clip,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: she's like, oh yeah, I don't drink anymore. I stopped
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: drinking alcohol. And Chloe's over there.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Like what you are. She's straight up onlood.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: She's straight up live.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: But it's just funny. But and I haven't really had
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: a chance to listen to Chloe in Wonderland. Just some
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: just some clips that I've seen that are, you know,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: obviously so well executed.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: She has money, I've catebated and my one claim to fame, right,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: now is that her rhino plastic surgeon is going to
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: be my hand No plasti surgeon, doctor Canodia, shout out,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Beverly Hills.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: That's exciting.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: So yeah, you're gonna come visit me, right and Beverly
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Hills have to stay there for nine days.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: I'll take care of you.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: If I got it's going to come in the beginning.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: And then I was like, well, if you can come
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: for the first half, right, it can come for the
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: second half. So I have somebody to help hockey. Yeah
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: I can do because I can't fly for eight days.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Of course, friend, just faw me out there and I'll hope. Okay,
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: let's do it.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: So okay, Chloe, if you're if you're listening, you don't
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: necessarily need doctor Hensley, but maybe one of your sisters do.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: So, No, Chloe's been treated like dirt.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah she has. She has loss.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Like, look, all these girls had parental loss. Their dad died. Yeah,
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: I know a little bit about that situation. I've raised
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: girls where they've lost their dad, and I mean that's
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: a huge trauma.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah it is.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: And then you have all this fame. I mean they're huge.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: They're some of the most famous people in the whole world.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're recognized. I mean I think that right now
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: that currently in this eerror that ran, the Kardashians probably
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: are the most famous people in the world.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Taylor's pretty damn famous.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just saying, yeah, I.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: Don't want to get the kids bad side either, and.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Oranges though it is famous for different.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, Taylor is by far the greatest songwriter of
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: all time.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: And yeah, she's a lyrical genius.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Lyrical freaking genius. And the storytelling and the Easter eggs
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: and the way that everything rolls out, she truly is
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: a mastermind. People are gonna say I'm weirdly obsessed with her.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: I don't care. Somebody already SAI that on social media.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: That's weird. I'm like, let it be weird.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: You're just a fan.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: I'm a fan. I don't have like posters of her
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: on my wall, like I like her music. I'm a
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: fan because I'm a fan of people that are the
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: best at what they do. That is, you know what.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: I am just as big of a fan as Michael
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: of Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods. There you go, so there, Yeah, Okay,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: they're the best at what they do. Maybe not currently.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: Maybe Michael Jordan's retired and so is Tiger.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: And we have empathy for all celebrities. I want to
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: end with that for everybody. Yeah, that's the goal.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: That's I'm supposed to be. Like Jesus. My job is
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: to try to have empathy for everybody. Yeah, it doesn't
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: mean we avoid accountability, but.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Of course, so guys, please continue to tune in, like, subscribe, follow.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: All of our videos are currently now up today on
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: YouTube thanks to our new podcast manager, Thank you so much,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: so you can go and watch us if you'd like
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: as well. But of course you can find us on
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: all podcast platforms. Please guys leave us a review. It
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: helps us.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: We got one today that was so nice.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it was such a beautiful review and
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: it was profound, profound. I do I want to read it.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: If you guys are hanging in till the end here,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: I want to read this review because it is so profound,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: because what this person has been through is just awful.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Dear doctor Hensley, I'm a recovering FA Thanks to your
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: course on earning Secure Attachment and ten years of weekly
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: somatic therapy, I've lived through unspeakable horrors, sold into sex, slavery,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: and suffered incest abuse from my father, to name a
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: small amount. I say this to give the depth and
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: severity of where I was on the attachment spectrum. No
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: other program or teacher trust me. I've done a lot,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: has given me the tools that have increased my capacities
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: across the board like you have. It's completely changed my life.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Safety is now becoming the baseline state in my body
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: when I couldn't tell you what that feeling was the
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: majority of my life, I've studied and studied the skills
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: and behaviors I wanted in relationships at nauseum, with very
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: little change in my capacities to execute them in the
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: face of relationship stress. I read nonviolent communications six times,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: took courses and led study groups. But the tools and
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: videos you've given me have been what's made all the difference.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: To me. Oh, I'm like crying, it's mad, like oh,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: and she goes on sorry. I'm so grateful for you.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being brave enough to put yourself under
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: public scrutiny to get your mission and message across. Thank
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: you for your honesty, integrity, and authenticity, sharing your struggles
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: and being vulnerable gives me courage to do the same.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: I'm in tears as I write this. Thank you from
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: the absolute bottom of my heart. I hope my gratitude
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: can drown out some of the sting of your burnout.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: You've changed my life, You've changed my children's lives. You
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: are an inspiration and I am rooting for you on
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: your mission from God.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you from the bottom of my heart, beautiful
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Test for just giving me that feedback, because those things
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: are what just keeps me moving, you know, to know
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: that if I was doing all this and feeling like
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: I wasn't making any different and so I would probably
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: give up pretty soon because it's not easy. If you guys,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: we're gonna start shooting a little bit more behind the scenes,
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: I think of what we do with the Love Doc.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: But yeah, we've got some We've got some exciting things, guys.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: We are so excited. Yes, we're where this the future
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: of this podcast can go. And but ultimately it can't
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: go anywhere without you. I mean, that's just the fact.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: That's the fact.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: So until the end there to go.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: We love you guys so much.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: We love you so much, and we just hope that
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: you continue to tune in, but of course, like I said,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: leave us a review, go like, subscribe, do all the
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: things follow us everywhere. We're going to try to do
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: some more incentives to try to push that. But until
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: next time, peace, love, and perspective.