Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Behind the Uniform: The Hidden Trauma of Policing | Narelle Fraser

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Behind the Uniform: The Hidden Trauma of Policing | Narelle Fraser · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apote production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam Shand. It's been my honor over the years to
0:19
Speaker 2: tell the stories of police officers and their service to
0:21
Speaker 2: the community. Often these officers have suffered trauma as a
0:25
Speaker 2: result of their service. Detective Sergeant Peter Ramanaz says police
0:30
Speaker 2: absorbed the pain of others for so long, eventually the
0:34
Speaker 2: well just runs dry. It's only in recent years that
0:38
Speaker 2: the community and enlightened police forces have begun to understand
0:42
Speaker 2: the long term impacts of post traumatic stress disorder. A
0:46
Speaker 2: former Victorian officer diagnosed with PTSD says he was haunted
0:51
Speaker 2: by flashbacks, nightmares, and overwhelming anxiety. Rather than accepting the
0:56
Speaker 2: trauma comes with the job, police forces are now coming
0:59
Speaker 2: to terms of PTSD and trying to find ways of
1:02
Speaker 2: preventing it and getting members back on the job. Nerelle
1:06
Speaker 2: Fraser was a member of Victoria Police for twenty seven years.
1:10
Speaker 2: Fifteen of those years she was a detective dealing with homicide,
1:14
Speaker 2: sexual assault, and missing person's cases. Her matters cover some
1:18
Speaker 2: of the highest profile crimes in Victoria of her era.
1:21
Speaker 2: In twenty twelve, Noel began to see a change in herself.
1:25
Speaker 2: Perhaps all the death, misery, and trauma she'd witnessed had
1:29
Speaker 2: begun to accumulate. Former officers described carrying cases for decades
1:35
Speaker 2: long after the uniform comes off. She was diagnosed with
1:39
Speaker 2: PTSD and she never returned to the job she loved.
1:43
Speaker 2: She had to find healing, and with that came a
1:46
Speaker 2: complete reinvention of herself. In the years since, Norelle has
1:50
Speaker 2: become a successful podcast host, a keynote speaker, and she
1:55
Speaker 2: also trains investigators. She uses her experience as an inspiration
1:58
Speaker 2: to others getting into the job or dealing with the
2:01
Speaker 2: dark side of her career in policing. Like most former detectives,
2:05
Speaker 2: Noel carries with her memories of jobs that she couldn't complete,
2:09
Speaker 2: loved ones she couldn't bring home to their families, crooks
2:12
Speaker 2: she couldn't lock up. And today we'll talk about one
2:15
Speaker 2: of those. Lorraine Joy Carter. He vanished in July two
2:19
Speaker 2: thousand and two, presumed murdered Gay Norrell.
2:24
Speaker 1: Hello, thank you for having me.
2:27
Speaker 2: When I say Lorraine Joy Carter, what images come to mind?
2:32
Speaker 1: I suppose it's not so much an Emmy Jadam, but
2:35
Speaker 1: more so a sense of failure. I worked on Lorraine's
2:41
Speaker 1: case for years with a team obviously from Missing Persons Unit,
2:46
Speaker 1: but I was never able to find her, just her parents.
2:51
Speaker 1: The anguish, the sadness, the trauma that her parents went
2:57
Speaker 1: through of not knowing where Lorraine was, if she was
3:02
Speaker 1: actually alive or deceased. It's more a sense of failure
3:07
Speaker 1: when anybody says the name Lorraine. It's an awful thing
3:11
Speaker 1: to live with, Adam, it really is, because now that
3:15
Speaker 1: both her parents are deceased. You know, even if we
3:18
Speaker 1: do find Lorraine, every time there's a dead body or
3:22
Speaker 1: a deceased body or bones fan, I always think, oh
3:24
Speaker 1: my god, I hope it's Loraine. But her parents went
3:27
Speaker 1: to their grave without ever ever knowing. So that's a
3:31
Speaker 1: huge failure in my book.
3:33
Speaker 2: And I've spoken to numerous missing persons detectives over the years,
3:37
Speaker 2: and they're very careful how they promise things. They don't
3:42
Speaker 2: say I will bring your love one home. That's their
3:45
Speaker 2: ego speaking. It's got to be much more of a
3:48
Speaker 2: I will leave no stone unturned in the search for
3:52
Speaker 2: your loved one.
3:54
Speaker 1: That's right, because I mean with Lorraine, no, we never
3:58
Speaker 1: did find her, and you cannot promise things that you
4:01
Speaker 1: don't know the answer to, and I think that would
4:04
Speaker 1: be a huge mistake for anyone to promise we will
4:09
Speaker 1: find them. You just don't know. But like you just said, then,
4:13
Speaker 1: I've always said I will do everything I can, I
4:16
Speaker 1: will leave no stone unturned. But I would often say
4:20
Speaker 1: to them, you know, to any parent or relative or
4:24
Speaker 1: friend of a missing person, I'll do everything I can,
4:26
Speaker 1: but I cannot promise you I'll find them. That must
4:30
Speaker 1: be hard to hear for somebody that's got a loved
4:34
Speaker 1: one or friend missing. But in the end, I got
4:38
Speaker 1: taught when I was a kid, don't make promises you
4:41
Speaker 1: can't keep.
4:43
Speaker 2: As journos, we constantly overpromise and under deliver. So it's
4:46
Speaker 2: a different kind of kind of thing. But in your
4:49
Speaker 2: world though, and I guess we did this to some
4:51
Speaker 2: extent as well, long term cases that we cover, but
4:53
Speaker 2: yours is a different emphasis. You form a close relationship
4:59
Speaker 2: with the family, but at the same time you're not
5:01
Speaker 2: acting for the fan. You're acting for the crown. That's
5:04
Speaker 2: your first responsibility. Yet you are brought into the family
5:08
Speaker 2: circle of this person that you will never meet, possibly
5:11
Speaker 2: certainly not living, and you see their childhood photographs, you
5:15
Speaker 2: see their school reports, you talk to their friends, You
5:19
Speaker 2: form this picture, and you develop a close relationship with
5:23
Speaker 2: the family in terms of your own mental health and
5:26
Speaker 2: well being. How do you regulate that kind of relationship.
5:31
Speaker 1: I think that was probably my undoing, was that I
5:36
Speaker 1: felt I could compartmentalize to a point, but I couldn't
5:41
Speaker 1: actually cut myself off from those emotions. And I think
5:46
Speaker 1: really good detectives do. But I also know a lot
5:50
Speaker 1: of detectives that feel like me that they do develop
5:54
Speaker 1: a closeness because you learn so much about this person,
5:57
Speaker 1: it's almost like you're there with them. And as you say,
6:01
Speaker 1: like seeing the photos around and like with Lorraine, I've
6:05
Speaker 1: spoken to her girlfriends, I've spoken to her friends, obviously
6:09
Speaker 1: her mum and dad, but her family, and looking back,
6:13
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say too close. But I couldn't stop thinking
6:16
Speaker 1: I'm responsible for Lorraine's parents' happiness. Like that's a huge
6:23
Speaker 1: load for anybody to carry, and I used to do
6:27
Speaker 1: that a lot. I felt very responsible for their happiness.
6:32
Speaker 1: In fact, by the end, when I was diagnosed with PTSD,
6:35
Speaker 1: I was feeling responsible for everybody's happiness and welfare and
6:40
Speaker 1: safety in Victoria. I mean, you just can't do that.
6:44
Speaker 1: So I wasn't very good at not getting close.
6:50
Speaker 2: And that's a strength for some detectives. I mean, I've
6:53
Speaker 2: even heard of stories where they're in the interview room,
6:57
Speaker 2: they push away the interview table, they sit next to
7:00
Speaker 2: the accused or the family, and they really give of themselves.
7:04
Speaker 2: But it's a dangerous moment because I think that well
7:08
Speaker 2: of empathy is not bottomless. It will have an impact
7:12
Speaker 2: on you. And I think, look at the cases you covered.
7:16
Speaker 2: Your bucket was pretty full. You can't go to that
7:19
Speaker 2: well endlessly. And I think you reached a point where
7:23
Speaker 2: that was true.
7:24
Speaker 1: Oh I absolutely did. But I didn't see it coming, Adam.
7:28
Speaker 1: And I think that's what a lot of people that
7:29
Speaker 1: get PTSD. We are trying to change that term to PtSi,
7:34
Speaker 1: as in the fact that it's an injury, not a disorder,
7:37
Speaker 1: because it's got just such a negative connotation. But all
7:41
Speaker 1: the time I go back to PTSD, I'm trying to
7:43
Speaker 1: change my way of thinking. But I just kept going
7:46
Speaker 1: into that well and I didn't see it coming. And
7:50
Speaker 1: that happens a lot with people that get PtSi. They
7:53
Speaker 1: don't see it coming. It's like a bolt out of
7:57
Speaker 1: the blue. You think, why can't I do this today?
8:01
Speaker 1: With me? It happened when I was viewing some child
8:04
Speaker 1: abuse material that I had done hundreds of times before,
8:09
Speaker 1: but this particular day, I don't know. I just think
8:12
Speaker 1: my bucket, my well got full, and I just couldn't
8:15
Speaker 1: deal with anymore. Apparently that's quite common that we think
8:20
Speaker 1: it happens just suddenly, just comes out of the blue.
8:23
Speaker 1: But when you look back, the signs were there for
8:27
Speaker 1: a very very long time. I put my head in
8:31
Speaker 1: the sand. I didn't understand anything in my day. When
8:34
Speaker 1: I was diagnosed in twenty twelve, it was very new.
8:38
Speaker 1: I didn't know what PTSD was. I can remember when
8:41
Speaker 1: the doctor told me. I said, me, PTSD, what is that?
8:46
Speaker 1: And of course when he said the words mental illness,
8:51
Speaker 1: just hung and I thought I couldn't have a mental illness.
8:56
Speaker 1: I'm no reel Fraser. I'm fine. I'm the strong one.
8:59
Speaker 1: I take on well, I don't take on the tough jobs,
9:02
Speaker 1: but I'm drawn to them like a b to a honey,
9:05
Speaker 1: because that's what I like. But I just couldn't see
9:08
Speaker 1: the wood for the trees.
9:11
Speaker 2: And you also forged a career in Victoria Police at
9:16
Speaker 2: a time when women were really assuming their rightful role
9:19
Speaker 2: in the ranks of Victoria Police.
9:20
Speaker 3: It wasn't always easy.
9:22
Speaker 2: You had to be very resilient, so I guess that
9:25
Speaker 2: feeling of having to be superhuman and invincible was an
9:28
Speaker 2: important part of your uniform as you went to work.
9:32
Speaker 1: Absolutely, because in the day when I was diagnosed in
9:37
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, I was so concerned about being seen as
9:41
Speaker 1: unable to cope weak, you know, she can't deal with it.
9:46
Speaker 1: And as you say, we as women have come a
9:50
Speaker 1: long way. Like really, when I first started, women were
9:54
Speaker 1: just an addendum. Blokes went and caught the crooks and
9:57
Speaker 1: we just sort of really tagged along. If kids needed
10:01
Speaker 1: babysitting or a woman needed to be helped or support to,
10:05
Speaker 1: oh you know, the girls will do that. So we
10:07
Speaker 1: have come a long way, Jeuse. It was tough at
10:10
Speaker 1: the start at them. You know, there were times when
10:13
Speaker 1: I wanted to walk away.
10:15
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've heard male members refer to policewomen of
10:19
Speaker 2: that era as the skirts and even less flattering terms.
10:23
Speaker 3: Yes, it's dismissive.
10:24
Speaker 2: You have to be tougher than tough, and you have
10:27
Speaker 2: to pull your weight, which you did, so credit to you.
10:30
Speaker 1: And a weight it was. It was a weight to carry,
10:34
Speaker 1: but I just sort of felt I loved policing, and
10:38
Speaker 1: I think I learned a very valuable lesson early on
10:41
Speaker 1: that I can't be responsible for how other people think,
10:46
Speaker 1: how other people act, because I saw some terrible things
10:49
Speaker 1: from policemen towards the community. But I thought if I
10:55
Speaker 1: walked away and I wasn't there, who would be there
10:58
Speaker 1: to help some of those people, to talk to them.
11:03
Speaker 1: So I look at it now as a strength to
11:07
Speaker 1: that I stayed, I suppose, but I didn't at the time.
11:10
Speaker 1: It was just sort of feel like you have to
11:12
Speaker 1: accept the positives and the negatives and concentrate more on
11:18
Speaker 1: the positives and the negatives, because I mean, in your
11:21
Speaker 1: field in journalism, there's positives and negatives. I'm sure you've
11:25
Speaker 1: a couple of times felt like, you know what, I'm
11:27
Speaker 1: out of here, But then you think about the good
11:30
Speaker 1: times and the good things you do and the good
11:32
Speaker 1: stories you cover. You've just got to sold your honor.
11:36
Speaker 1: I suppose if you said and done.
11:39
Speaker 2: The only times I said I'm out of here was
11:40
Speaker 2: when I got fired. A couple of times, let's not
11:42
Speaker 2: go to those stories. By two thousand and two, when
11:47
Speaker 2: Lorraine Joy Carter goes missing, you're fully fledged. You've been
11:50
Speaker 2: in the job for more than fifteen years as a
11:53
Speaker 2: detective in a uniform as well. You were perfectly placed
11:58
Speaker 2: to cover this investigation.
11:59
Speaker 3: You were the informant. Tell me about Lorraine.
12:02
Speaker 2: What were your early impressions of her as you started
12:04
Speaker 2: to form your case theory?
12:07
Speaker 1: Probably one of sadness that Lorraine had been born with complications.
12:16
Speaker 1: She was born with some enormous challenges. She went to
12:21
Speaker 1: what we used to call a special school in Bendigo.
12:25
Speaker 1: She really struggled academically. All the professionals that her mum
12:30
Speaker 1: and dad took her to basically always said Lorraine would
12:33
Speaker 1: amount to nothing. She lived with her parents most of
12:37
Speaker 1: her life. They were this is going to sound wrong.
12:41
Speaker 1: I don't know how to say it, but to look
12:43
Speaker 1: at Lorraine, you knew that there were problems, there were issues,
12:47
Speaker 1: But you know what, to her parents, Lorraine was just
12:51
Speaker 1: a perfect child. I mean they had a very very
12:55
Speaker 1: close relationship and because of her challenges and her struggles,
12:59
Speaker 1: they looked after her probably a bit more. They were
13:04
Speaker 1: really lovely close family. And Lorraine had this dog called Chloe,
13:09
Speaker 1: and Chloe was the world to Lorraine. Like her child.
13:13
Speaker 1: You know, she had a couple of relationships. They were disasters,
13:18
Speaker 1: but she had a really beautiful personality. She made a
13:23
Speaker 1: lot of friends at school and friends that were friends
13:27
Speaker 1: of hers until she went missing. And I've spoken to
13:30
Speaker 1: many of those friends, and she was a very very popular,
13:36
Speaker 1: really lovely natured woman.
13:40
Speaker 2: And as you say, they were a very close family.
13:42
Speaker 2: And in nineteen ninety eight, her parents, June and Allen,
13:46
Speaker 2: they bought a caravan down at Phillip Island at Caravan
13:49
Speaker 2: Park there and Lorraine would go there with them, but
13:52
Speaker 2: also stay there on her own. In two thousand, she
13:56
Speaker 2: meets the man who had become the red hot suspect
13:58
Speaker 2: in her disappearance.
13:59
Speaker 1: And murder, The only suspecting.
14:03
Speaker 3: Correct.
14:03
Speaker 2: I was given the benefit of the doubt from Murray
14:06
Speaker 2: Lionel Carter.
14:07
Speaker 3: Who is he?
14:09
Speaker 1: You know, my parents taught me a lot of things,
14:12
Speaker 1: but one of the things they taught me was if
14:14
Speaker 1: you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything.
14:18
Speaker 1: But my parents aren't here now, so I can actually
14:23
Speaker 1: say I despised everything that Murray stood for. And this
14:28
Speaker 1: is through years of investigating this man and I was
14:33
Speaker 1: able to actually put this aside and do my job.
14:37
Speaker 1: But he was a controlling, manipulative man who was very violent,
14:47
Speaker 1: and he was a very typical abuser because what he
14:52
Speaker 1: did was he met Lorraine. Obviously she was very vulnerable.
14:57
Speaker 1: He could see that he wasn't a dial you know,
15:00
Speaker 1: I'd love to say he was, but he wasn't. And
15:03
Speaker 1: he began to isolate Lorraine from her parents, from her friends.
15:10
Speaker 1: It is just such a typical coercive, controlling relationship.
15:16
Speaker 2: You're right, because pretty soon they're living together in Murray's caravan.
15:21
Speaker 2: Not long afterwards, they moved to Cape Patterson, even further
15:24
Speaker 2: south than Phillip Island. So you see this process of
15:27
Speaker 2: isolation beginning. Sort of, I guess what we call these
15:30
Speaker 2: control and coercion that sort of ended the policing lexicon
15:34
Speaker 2: in recent years, but.
15:34
Speaker 3: This is a good example of it.
15:35
Speaker 1: I think, Oh absolutely, to the point where Lorraine was
15:41
Speaker 1: almost one hundred percent relying on Murray for everything, for money,
15:47
Speaker 1: because he began controlling her finances. Where they lived. They
15:52
Speaker 1: ended up moving to a place up on the mid
15:55
Speaker 1: to Mitter, the most beautiful part of the world. But
15:58
Speaker 1: you know, I can't go anywhere near there there without
16:00
Speaker 1: thinking about Paul Lorraine. But he ended up moving to
16:06
Speaker 1: this dump, no electricity, no water. It was a family
16:12
Speaker 1: house that had been abandoned, his family, and he took
16:15
Speaker 1: her up there. You know, they were five hundred meters
16:19
Speaker 1: from the road, they were kilometers from neighbors, no phone
16:24
Speaker 1: except Lorraine's mobile. But you know, just to go into town,
16:28
Speaker 1: Lorraine didn't drive, so even to go to the shops,
16:32
Speaker 1: she either had to walk, which was ten k or
16:38
Speaker 1: hitchhike or go with Murray. You know, like it is
16:42
Speaker 1: just a perfect example of somebody that manipulates and controls
16:49
Speaker 1: a person, in this case.
16:51
Speaker 2: A woman, And in Lorraine's case, the disappearance is out
16:55
Speaker 2: of character. So close to her parents, has been in
16:58
Speaker 2: constant contact through all the dramas. She was getting beaten up,
17:01
Speaker 2: there were all these things going on, but she still
17:03
Speaker 2: kept communicating. Obviously, in these situations you must eliminate the
17:08
Speaker 2: spouse or partner of those close to the victim. And
17:11
Speaker 2: when you looked into Murray's background, there were some telltale signs.
17:16
Speaker 2: He'd done jail for karth F's and robbery with violence.
17:20
Speaker 3: He'd beaten a shop on over the.
17:22
Speaker 1: Head, with a with a hammer.
17:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I guess in that situation he becomes your
17:28
Speaker 2: prime suspect, and you're really thinking this is more than
17:32
Speaker 2: likely a murder, not just a disappearance.
17:35
Speaker 1: Absolutely, there were so many telltale signs. But just going back, yes,
17:41
Speaker 1: he was in my mind, and I think most other detectives,
17:46
Speaker 1: he was the number one suspect. We never found anyone
17:50
Speaker 1: else that we believed had the motive or you know,
17:55
Speaker 1: she could have been abducted if she was walking into
17:58
Speaker 1: town or something. Sure, but the history of Murray, in
18:05
Speaker 1: my mind, he was the one and only suspect. And
18:10
Speaker 1: I say that with a lot of evidence to corroborate
18:15
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. The beatings that he gave her, the injuries,
18:22
Speaker 1: she'd wring her parents. She'd run to the neighbors or
18:26
Speaker 1: run into town or hitchhike into town, and she'd wring
18:29
Speaker 1: her mum and dad, you know, come and get me,
18:32
Speaker 1: throwing a chair, He's throwing me across the room, terrible things.
18:36
Speaker 1: It was just so cruel. But he had her in
18:41
Speaker 1: the palm of her hand, and they actually got married.
18:44
Speaker 1: And I think, how coercive and controlling is this, But
18:49
Speaker 1: he actually chose her wedding dress and her shoes. That's
18:54
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about about. So controlling. But what Lorraine
18:58
Speaker 1: wanted to do. She'd always wanted to get married, like
19:00
Speaker 1: you know, most people want to be loved and want
19:03
Speaker 1: to be in a relationship there in And Loraine always
19:08
Speaker 1: said to her mum and dad, she'd always go back
19:09
Speaker 1: to him because she said, it's my fault. I made
19:14
Speaker 1: him angry. I've got to make this work, you know,
19:17
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, like God lover.
19:20
Speaker 3: What's frustrating.
19:21
Speaker 2: Often in these situations there's victim blaming with that cliche
19:25
Speaker 2: a question, well, why didn't she leave him? You've been
19:29
Speaker 2: up close to these things, and you know why people
19:31
Speaker 2: don't leave in these situations. And as she said, she
19:34
Speaker 2: took on a feeling of blame.
19:37
Speaker 1: Absolutely she did, because he would continually tell her that
19:43
Speaker 1: she was useless. He just put her down all the time,
19:47
Speaker 1: to the point where I suppose you start to believe it.
19:50
Speaker 1: I mean, I've never been in that position, but I
19:53
Speaker 1: know so many people that have, and they do, they
19:56
Speaker 1: start to think it's their fault. And that's what Loraine
19:58
Speaker 1: would say, I made him angry. Mum and dad. The
20:01
Speaker 1: poor darling, you know, you know it brings back such
20:06
Speaker 1: a sadness in my career.
20:09
Speaker 3: I'm sure it does.
20:11
Speaker 2: And I mean so much circumstantial evidence, going to talk
20:14
Speaker 2: like your senior sergeant here, So much circumstantial evidence, but
20:18
Speaker 2: the direct evidence was lacking. I mean things like the
20:20
Speaker 2: fact that it wasn't Murray who called the police to
20:22
Speaker 2: advise she was missing, even though he was with her
20:25
Speaker 2: every day.
20:25
Speaker 3: It was her father.
20:26
Speaker 2: And then the following day Murray goes to Sendling and
20:30
Speaker 2: gets a single pension saying his wife left him the
20:33
Speaker 2: day after she's been reported missing. Heavy circumstantial evidence, but
20:37
Speaker 2: you've got nobody. When you're faced with this sort of
20:40
Speaker 2: history and you've got someone who's now clearly indicating she's
20:45
Speaker 2: not coming back, what does he know? How does it
20:48
Speaker 2: feel as an investigator?
20:50
Speaker 1: Bloody, frustrating, and it makes you want to dig just
20:54
Speaker 1: deeper and deeper because you just want to find that link.
21:00
Speaker 1: You want to find that nexus between let's say Hurry
21:05
Speaker 1: and Lorraine. I believe he murdered her and he disposed
21:09
Speaker 1: of her body. He knew the area where she went
21:11
Speaker 1: missing like the back of his hand. He had grown
21:13
Speaker 1: up in that area, so he would know areas like
21:17
Speaker 1: you know Deisi Freeman. He knows the area like the
21:20
Speaker 1: back of his hand. He knows areas that police will
21:24
Speaker 1: never search or whatever. But to this day, no sign
21:28
Speaker 1: of her. And like you say, the circumstantial evidence was overwhelming,
21:34
Speaker 1: but we didn't have a body, and we had nobody
21:38
Speaker 1: that saw her after I think it was the sixteenth
21:42
Speaker 1: of July of that year. Her parents are the ones.
21:46
Speaker 1: Her dad is the one that reported her missing, not Murray.
21:51
Speaker 3: That's right.
21:52
Speaker 2: And by September, when you're full into the investigation, you're
21:55
Speaker 2: discovering that Murray's pawning Lorraine's items, anything connected with her.
22:00
Speaker 2: He's selling for cash. There is absolutely no remorse, there's
22:05
Speaker 2: no compassion, there's no grief for his wife that's missing.
22:09
Speaker 2: He's pawning her possessions. I mean, it's the kind of
22:12
Speaker 2: thing that if you put before a jury, I'd probably
22:15
Speaker 2: convict on. But to get to the court of appeal,
22:17
Speaker 2: they're going to say, no, that's not beyond reasonable doubt.
22:21
Speaker 2: So I can see the dilemma. And I think these
22:24
Speaker 2: days though, courts are more accepting of situations where there
22:28
Speaker 2: isn't a body back then not the case.
22:31
Speaker 1: No, But even if you don't have a body. G
22:34
Speaker 1: you've got to have a good case. You know, it's
22:37
Speaker 1: not just I reckon he's done it and this is
22:39
Speaker 1: what he's done. Like the evidence that we found in
22:43
Speaker 1: relation to Murray, as we've said, it was overwhelming, but
22:49
Speaker 1: you know, we couldn't find a body. In fact, it
22:51
Speaker 1: had to go to a coroner's court for an inquest
22:55
Speaker 1: for the coroner to actually say, I believe that Murray
23:01
Speaker 1: Carter has murdered Lorraine and disposed of her body. Oh,
23:06
Speaker 1: just the effort that we went to to try and
23:10
Speaker 1: prove everything that Murray would say. You know, when we
23:15
Speaker 1: were talking about you never make a promise you can't keep.
23:18
Speaker 1: I did make one promise in this case, and it's
23:22
Speaker 1: nothing I'm proud of, but it's how I became so
23:27
Speaker 1: angry about how somebody could treat a vulnerable woman like Lorraine.
23:34
Speaker 1: And I remember one time when we did a search
23:37
Speaker 1: warrant at Murray's house. I remember him sitting there and
23:41
Speaker 1: I actually poked his chest and through my gritted teeth,
23:46
Speaker 1: I'm going to get you you. I think I said,
23:49
Speaker 1: you f in prick, but I said I'm going to
23:51
Speaker 1: get you you in prick. If it's the last thing
23:55
Speaker 1: I do, and I remember poking finger att or like
23:59
Speaker 1: that is just you just should never ever do that.
24:03
Speaker 1: And my emotions were just, you know, at boiling point
24:07
Speaker 1: with him because I was just so disgusted with what
24:11
Speaker 1: I learned about him. And you know what, I never
24:16
Speaker 1: did get him.
24:18
Speaker 2: That was the twelfth of December two thousand and two,
24:21
Speaker 2: when that search was conducted at the house. You turned
24:24
Speaker 2: the place upside down, You took up floorboards, you took
24:27
Speaker 2: the contents of the vacuum and everything you could possibly do,
24:31
Speaker 2: but it yielded nothing that she could really take forward.
24:33
Speaker 3: Is that right?
24:35
Speaker 1: Pretty much? The only thing that we did find was
24:38
Speaker 1: a little calico bag that he said Lorraine had taken
24:44
Speaker 1: with her when she left, because that's what Murray said
24:47
Speaker 1: when everyone would ask. The local police attended the knight
24:50
Speaker 1: that alan her father the night that he reported it,
24:54
Speaker 1: tutos to the local police. The med to meter police
24:57
Speaker 1: went straight around there, Murray where is she? And he
25:01
Speaker 1: maintained until the day of his death that they'd had
25:04
Speaker 1: an arm argument, that she just walked out of the
25:07
Speaker 1: house and he never saw her again. He said she
25:11
Speaker 1: took her mobile phone and he set a calico bag
25:14
Speaker 1: and he explained the bag, and that's the one that
25:17
Speaker 1: June had made her Well, in the warrant, we found
25:21
Speaker 1: that Calico bag. Now, okay, it's a quarter of percent,
25:25
Speaker 1: you know, all those little one percentages. It still doesn't
25:28
Speaker 1: prove that he's killed her. But you know, there was
25:32
Speaker 1: a lot of little chinks in his story, but nothing
25:35
Speaker 1: that we could ever prove.
25:38
Speaker 2: Indeed, this is a hard story to read and to
25:41
Speaker 2: tell because I can see what impact it must have
25:43
Speaker 2: had on you, because come July two thousand and three,
25:47
Speaker 2: Murray doesn't can come and confess. He doesn't tell anybody
25:49
Speaker 2: what he's done. He commits suicide, and he effectively blames
25:53
Speaker 2: you in a note that he left behind.
25:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that doesn't surprise me. I think he felt
26:00
Speaker 1: about me as I felt about him. He didn't actually
26:04
Speaker 1: name me, he said police, but I hadn't been particularly
26:08
Speaker 1: professional with him. So but you know, from my point
26:12
Speaker 1: of view, and I apologize to suicide is a terrible
26:15
Speaker 1: thing for anybody to deal with. And Murray's got a family.
26:19
Speaker 1: You know, there's people that they leave behind. But I
26:22
Speaker 1: just felt it was a coward's way out with Murray.
26:26
Speaker 1: He just I just don't understand if you're going to
26:29
Speaker 1: do that, why wouldn't he say? And this is something
26:32
Speaker 1: that's always stuck in my mind. He knew he was
26:35
Speaker 1: going to end his life, why wouldn't he say, I
26:40
Speaker 1: did do it? But he never did, And there's just
26:44
Speaker 1: a little bit of a niggle in the back of
26:47
Speaker 1: my mind. If he did do it, why didn't he
26:50
Speaker 1: say that in the note? But then again, being the
26:53
Speaker 1: type of person he was, he'd probably never admitted anyway.
26:57
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's true.
26:58
Speaker 2: I've heard this time and time again from people like
27:01
Speaker 2: Derek Ernest Percy, who killed many more people than he
27:04
Speaker 2: was charged with too. He was the one that he
27:06
Speaker 2: was convicted over, but he killed half a dozen more
27:09
Speaker 2: at least, and he had the opportunity to say that
27:12
Speaker 2: he did it on his deathbed. Plenty of chances to
27:14
Speaker 2: do that. I've seen cases where it's obvious that someone
27:18
Speaker 2: is the killer but doesn't reveal the location of the body.
27:22
Speaker 2: I think, excuse my friends, but it's a final fuck
27:24
Speaker 2: you to society.
27:26
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, because you only get.
27:28
Speaker 2: Away with murder when you're dead. There's always someone like
27:31
Speaker 2: you chasing, which is a good thing on behalf of
27:33
Speaker 2: the community. So he took that to his grave. And
27:36
Speaker 2: I think that's the great tragic, not just for the family,
27:39
Speaker 2: but for you who've invested so much in this that
27:41
Speaker 2: you can't take that final piece of information that Lorraine
27:44
Speaker 2: is buried such and such a place and bring her
27:48
Speaker 2: home to Mum and dad.
27:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, as I said at the beginning,
27:55
Speaker 1: and the sad thing is that Lorraine's never been found.
27:59
Speaker 1: And her parents, Alan and June, they joined Vicvictims of
28:05
Speaker 1: Crime Assistance. They went to all that missing persons rallies.
28:11
Speaker 1: They did everything humanly possible to keep Lorraine's memory alive
28:19
Speaker 1: because I believe that they will. They hoped that Lorraine
28:24
Speaker 1: would be found before they passed away, and they didn't.
28:29
Speaker 1: They went to their graves not knowing. And I just
28:32
Speaker 1: think it's sad after years, you know, they don't want
28:35
Speaker 1: anyone to forget Lorraine. They was elderly by I don't know,
28:40
Speaker 1: let's say ten years later. They were elderly, but they
28:43
Speaker 1: didn't want to leave their house because what if Lorraine
28:46
Speaker 1: came back. Isn't that sad? That that's the effect that
28:52
Speaker 1: these sort of crimes have on the people that are
28:55
Speaker 1: left behind.
28:57
Speaker 2: For sure, even finding remains on the other side, of
29:00
Speaker 2: the coin is such a resolution. I've just in a
29:02
Speaker 2: case with the Victoria Police podcast that I make about
29:06
Speaker 2: an ex serviceman who was trying to get back to
29:08
Speaker 2: his family from Perth.
29:09
Speaker 3: He perished in the desert.
29:10
Speaker 2: His body wasn't found for thirty five years, and his
29:13
Speaker 2: children always believed that he'd walked off on them, let
29:17
Speaker 2: them down. So whenctives were able to bring the remains
29:20
Speaker 2: back and say I'm told me sorry about your father
29:21
Speaker 2: has passed away, at least they could say, well, he
29:24
Speaker 2: was trying to get home. Whereas without the body, it's
29:27
Speaker 2: such a oh, it's so unresolved. I think it would
29:30
Speaker 2: be the hardest thing to adjust to. And there is
29:32
Speaker 2: that feeling that perhaps they walk down the drive hope
29:35
Speaker 2: against hope. And I've got half a dozen cases that
29:38
Speaker 2: I cover and I always hope that there will be
29:42
Speaker 2: a resolution. I've actually a little post note on my
29:44
Speaker 2: wall here that says completion. It reminds me to look
29:47
Speaker 2: back at those cases and keep making those phone calls,
29:50
Speaker 2: do what you can. And I'm sure it's times ten
29:52
Speaker 2: with a police officer who's not just telling a story
29:56
Speaker 2: but trying to find evidence to convict somebody or to
29:59
Speaker 2: bring somebody home.
30:01
Speaker 1: And also you think, what have I missed? You know,
30:04
Speaker 1: have I missed something obvious? All those questions, and just
30:08
Speaker 1: as a little aside, I always remember every Monday, without fail,
30:14
Speaker 1: Alan would ring me. The fineer'd go at eight thirty
30:17
Speaker 1: am and it'd be Ellen and he was always so
30:21
Speaker 1: upbeat and you know, hello, love, how's your weekend? Just
30:26
Speaker 1: you know, wondering if there's been any movement, you know,
30:29
Speaker 1: and to actually say to somebody continually, we haven't been
30:34
Speaker 1: able to find anything or know it, and then people
30:38
Speaker 1: don't under why would they understand, but we are working
30:42
Speaker 1: on I don't know. At the time, I was probably
30:45
Speaker 1: working on god six or seven active missing person files,
30:51
Speaker 1: the Rain being one of them. You know, you'd go
30:53
Speaker 1: and do a bit on one file and do a
30:55
Speaker 1: bit on another, but you try telling a parent of
30:58
Speaker 1: a missing child on doing other jobs with other like
31:03
Speaker 1: you just wouldn't do it. But oh I used them.
31:06
Speaker 1: My heart used to sink eight thirty Monday morning. It
31:10
Speaker 1: was Alan.
31:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, But that is the reality that you've got several
31:14
Speaker 2: files that you've got to work on, and you've got
31:16
Speaker 2: to give everyone the same kind of attention.
31:19
Speaker 3: But you did it.
31:19
Speaker 2: Not just out of it because you had to or
31:21
Speaker 2: a sense of duty. You did it because you love
31:23
Speaker 2: the job and you love these people. I got to
31:24
Speaker 2: tell you the fact that you went and attended the
31:26
Speaker 2: memorial service twelve months after the rain's disappearance.
31:30
Speaker 3: I guess you could be cynical and say, oh, maybe there's.
31:33
Speaker 2: Some evidence to be had there, but I don't think
31:34
Speaker 2: that's why you were there.
31:36
Speaker 1: No, no, I went there. I haven't done that too
31:40
Speaker 1: many times. In fact, the times I have gone to
31:42
Speaker 1: a memorial service, as you say, it's like scanning the crowd.
31:46
Speaker 1: Who's here. With Lorraine, it was nothing like that. Her
31:50
Speaker 1: mum and dad asked me. I think June and Allen
31:54
Speaker 1: sort of saw me as a quasi daughter in a
31:56
Speaker 1: way because I was around the same age as Lorraine.
32:00
Speaker 1: I just felt it's the least I could do. They
32:03
Speaker 1: asked me to go, and I remember I sat right
32:06
Speaker 1: up the back on my own and oh my goodness,
32:10
Speaker 1: Alan said the most beautiful things about me in the
32:14
Speaker 1: memorial and I was a blubbering mess up the back
32:19
Speaker 1: of the church, and I was so embarrassed because it's
32:26
Speaker 1: just me, you know, I just couldn't pretend to be
32:29
Speaker 1: anything else. But I think they really admired me. They
32:33
Speaker 1: respected me as much as I admired and respected them.
32:37
Speaker 1: But as I keep saying, it was just I felt
32:40
Speaker 1: such a failure. It's an awful feeling to live with.
32:46
Speaker 2: But you remained in the job another ten years, I
32:48
Speaker 2: think before you had to pull the pin. What were
32:52
Speaker 2: those years like? Could you see that the experiences of
32:56
Speaker 2: your service were taking their toll?
32:58
Speaker 1: I don't think I could, Adam. I think I would
33:01
Speaker 1: make excuses. I think I will say to myself, well,
33:07
Speaker 1: of course I'm going to be tired and emotional in
33:10
Speaker 1: those days. We do eighteen twenty hour days. Then you'd
33:15
Speaker 1: have to be back at work the next day, so
33:17
Speaker 1: you might be running on a couple of hours sleep.
33:21
Speaker 1: You know, all you'd think about is what have I missed?
33:24
Speaker 1: I mean, it became overwhelming, but I didn't see it
33:27
Speaker 1: like that. And also I think I was pushing down
33:31
Speaker 1: these feelings because I just loved it so much. It
33:37
Speaker 1: sounds bizarre, doesn't it when we talk about these heart
33:40
Speaker 1: renting cases. But I loved what I did. I loved
33:43
Speaker 1: what I represented, I loved dealing with the people. And
33:48
Speaker 1: you know, I was always very honest never lied. But
33:52
Speaker 1: I think people respected the fact that I didn't lie
33:55
Speaker 1: and that if there was something difficult to say, I
33:58
Speaker 1: would say it. But I put my head in the sand.
34:01
Speaker 1: Looking back, the signs were there. I just couldn't accept it.
34:07
Speaker 1: I think.
34:09
Speaker 2: You were finally diagnosed in twenty twelve, and then that
34:13
Speaker 2: was the end of your career. I mean, how was
34:16
Speaker 2: that adjusting to the fact that you're now out of
34:19
Speaker 2: the job that you loved, that had formed such a
34:22
Speaker 2: strong part of your personality. How was the journey from
34:26
Speaker 2: there and your healing horrendous?
34:29
Speaker 1: Initially because I loved policing so much, and I realized
34:35
Speaker 1: after going to a psychologist, my doctor is the one
34:39
Speaker 1: that said I had PtSi, and of course I thought
34:41
Speaker 1: he was the one that needed help, not me. He
34:44
Speaker 1: was wrong. But it was after going to the psychologist
34:51
Speaker 1: and talking to her it's when I realized, you know what,
34:55
Speaker 1: I'm very sick. I went to austin the PtSi course,
35:00
Speaker 1: which was a game changer. But initially I didn't want
35:04
Speaker 1: to leave the house because I didn't want to see police,
35:09
Speaker 1: like just to see a police car or hear a siren.
35:13
Speaker 1: I just wanted to be there and I missed it terribly,
35:17
Speaker 1: but also thank goodness, I had the foresight to listen
35:21
Speaker 1: to the professionals because the psychologist I explained a situation
35:26
Speaker 1: that had happened just before I actually went off sick.
35:28
Speaker 1: And the reason I went to the doctor because I
35:30
Speaker 1: had it like an amnesia event in court where I
35:33
Speaker 1: just walked out of court. I'm informed in a buddy
35:36
Speaker 1: rape trial and I'm in La La Land, across the
35:39
Speaker 1: road having a coffee. I remember thinking to myself, pardon me,
35:42
Speaker 1: but what the fuck am I doing over here? I'm
35:44
Speaker 1: supposed to be running a committal. You know, I missed
35:48
Speaker 1: everything about it. But then I started to realize how
35:52
Speaker 1: damaged I was, and the sich said to me that
35:55
Speaker 1: amnesia event in court. The next step was psych hospital
36:01
Speaker 1: and that's when I thought, you know what, nothing is
36:05
Speaker 1: worth that. It frightened me because I'd been to a
36:07
Speaker 1: psych hospital a number of times as a police person,
36:11
Speaker 1: and it is so confronting, so sad, horrifying, traumatic, every
36:16
Speaker 1: word you can think of, and I thought, I'm not
36:19
Speaker 1: going there, and so I trusted the professionals. And it
36:23
Speaker 1: took me a long time to be able to I
36:26
Speaker 1: didn't want to tell anyone that I was off work
36:29
Speaker 1: because I was so embarrassed. I was so humiliated that
36:32
Speaker 1: I had a mental illness. So I didn't see anyone,
36:37
Speaker 1: and I had a lot of triggers. I didn't realize.
36:39
Speaker 1: I didn't know what a flashback or a trigger was.
36:42
Speaker 1: I had no idea. But after leaving, or when I left,
36:46
Speaker 1: I couldn't even go and see little kids in a
36:49
Speaker 1: playground or little kids running around. Everywhere you go there's kids.
36:53
Speaker 1: That was a trigger for me because of what I'd
36:55
Speaker 1: seen with the child abuse material. It's really strange, well
36:59
Speaker 1: not strange, I won't go into it, but animals are
37:03
Speaker 1: a trigger for me. What do you do? Everyone's got
37:06
Speaker 1: a dog, most people have kids or grandkids or something.
37:09
Speaker 1: So I found it easier to be on my own.
37:14
Speaker 1: But then eventually, with the help of a psychologist and
37:19
Speaker 1: the fact that I was away from policing, as difficult
37:22
Speaker 1: as it was, I think that time away helped me.
37:27
Speaker 1: Now I can talk about any job you want, but
37:31
Speaker 1: initially I couldn't even think of them. But that's how healed,
37:36
Speaker 1: I suppose I am. I don't think I'll ever be
37:38
Speaker 1: one hundred. Well I won't because I still have terrible nightmares.
37:42
Speaker 1: That's something that you know I have to live with.
37:45
Speaker 1: But now I feel like telling the world about what
37:51
Speaker 1: I didn't want to tell anybody because I kept it
37:53
Speaker 1: all in myself. And that's I think what an issue
37:55
Speaker 1: it was is that you see some such terrible things
37:59
Speaker 1: that you don't want to bring, Like I didn't want
38:01
Speaker 1: to bring my husband, my sisters, my friends into that world.
38:05
Speaker 1: So you keep a lot of it, you absorb it.
38:08
Speaker 1: But it was to my detriment, and now I want
38:12
Speaker 1: to tell the whole body world about what I had too.
38:16
Speaker 2: And you're doing an amazing job, and I that's off
38:18
Speaker 2: to you. What do you think was a turning point
38:22
Speaker 2: that there was one towards resolving your injury and getting
38:25
Speaker 2: to a stage where I mean, it's obviously going to
38:27
Speaker 2: be a scar t issue because just the job will
38:30
Speaker 2: carry those scars, let alone the debilitating nature of ptsis,
38:36
Speaker 2: I'm now going to call it.
38:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the main thing that I had to
38:42
Speaker 1: do to get better was the hardest thing. I had
38:45
Speaker 1: to accept that I had a mental illness. And until
38:51
Speaker 1: you accept that there is something wrong, something that needs attention,
38:57
Speaker 1: you're never going to fix it. So I honestly think
39:02
Speaker 1: I took probably eighteen months away from the job to
39:08
Speaker 1: be able to accept pardon me, I fucked. You know.
39:14
Speaker 1: I had to be able to be able to accept that,
39:18
Speaker 1: and that's not easy. Once I accepted that I had
39:24
Speaker 1: been very, very sick, nearly admitted to a psych hospital,
39:29
Speaker 1: That's what I think. The main turning point was probably
39:34
Speaker 1: that came from attending the Austin hospital, the PtSi clinic.
39:41
Speaker 1: That's where I was with another eight I think it
39:44
Speaker 1: was police people. They did some pretty intensive work there,
39:48
Speaker 1: and it was just how did I ever do this?
39:53
Speaker 1: Like some of the I remember with work cover, I
39:56
Speaker 1: went to a psychologist that they sent me to, and
40:00
Speaker 1: I remember telling the psychologist one job that I've been
40:03
Speaker 1: to and she actually said to me, Neelle, I'm sorry,
40:08
Speaker 1: I can't deal with you anymore. That was also a
40:11
Speaker 1: bit of a wow, this must be bad when I
40:16
Speaker 1: told somebody what I was experiencing. For a psychologist or
40:21
Speaker 1: psychiatrist to say I can't deal with this, Wow, that
40:25
Speaker 1: was a real moment as well, I think, But it's
40:28
Speaker 1: definitely accepting that I was unwell, but also listening to
40:33
Speaker 1: the professionals. I did a lot of things that I thought,
40:38
Speaker 1: this is madness. If anybody saw me doing this, they'd
40:42
Speaker 1: think I was definitely heading for a psych hospital. But
40:46
Speaker 1: I listened to the professionals. I did everything they said
40:49
Speaker 1: because I desperately wanted to get back. But the longer
40:52
Speaker 1: I was away, the more I realized how damaged I was.
40:56
Speaker 2: I've never seen the stigma around meddlems because my dad
41:00
Speaker 2: was a psychiatrist. I literally grew up around this and
41:03
Speaker 2: him discussing this stuff. He'd say, people will go to
41:06
Speaker 2: the hospital for a broken arm, but they won't go
41:08
Speaker 2: to the hospital for a broken mind.
41:10
Speaker 3: He couldn't understand it, and that was.
41:12
Speaker 2: One of his frustrations, and I think he used to
41:14
Speaker 2: absorb a lot of this sort of trauma.
41:16
Speaker 3: I'm not sure how he resolved it.
41:18
Speaker 2: But listen, You've had an amazing career, and I really
41:20
Speaker 2: want to thank you for sharing this so openly. And
41:24
Speaker 2: we have a lot of young people who are considering
41:27
Speaker 2: careers in police and it's a difficult job now because
41:30
Speaker 2: people don't want to join up. They're struggling to get
41:33
Speaker 2: people in. What advice would you give to young people,
41:36
Speaker 2: I guess, particularly women who are considering a career in
41:38
Speaker 2: policing and how to manage these issues which will surely
41:41
Speaker 2: be there because most of you you're being paid to
41:44
Speaker 2: put yourselves in harms way, I.
41:46
Speaker 1: Think to accept that you are going to be exposed
41:52
Speaker 1: to some very traumatic incidents, to a lot of sadness
41:57
Speaker 1: and a lot of grief. But I think that everybody,
42:01
Speaker 1: every police person, should see a professional psychiatrist or psychologist.
42:07
Speaker 1: More than a psychiatrist, but to see somebody professional, maybe
42:12
Speaker 1: once a month, once every six weeks, just to talk
42:16
Speaker 1: to somebody about how you're feeling, and to learn the
42:21
Speaker 1: signs that I ignored, the signs that I ignored. I
42:26
Speaker 1: got to the point where I began shaking a lot,
42:30
Speaker 1: to the point where I couldn't read my own writing.
42:32
Speaker 1: If I'd pulled over motorists for something, or I went
42:35
Speaker 1: knocking on a pedophile's door, which happened a lot, I
42:39
Speaker 1: got very anxious. I would shake really bad. I was
42:45
Speaker 1: sleeping of a night time. I think I call it
42:47
Speaker 1: an irritable leg but what happened was my legs would
42:52
Speaker 1: shake so much that it would wake up my husband.
42:56
Speaker 1: And again, because I didn't want to tell anyone, I
43:00
Speaker 1: didn't know what was happening. Myself, you know, keep it
43:02
Speaker 1: a secret. So there was a shaking. The anger. Oh
43:07
Speaker 1: my god, Adam, the anger. I am not an angry person,
43:09
Speaker 1: but I got to the point where I felt like
43:13
Speaker 1: my head was going to burst. But if I would
43:16
Speaker 1: have been educated and maybe seen somebody very early on regularly,
43:23
Speaker 1: might have been able to recognize these signs and do
43:27
Speaker 1: something about it. But I had no idea what was
43:29
Speaker 1: going on. I just thought, this is what happens when
43:32
Speaker 1: you're a police person, you know, you see this sort
43:34
Speaker 1: of stuff. Of course I'm going to get tired. Of
43:36
Speaker 1: course I'm going to get emotional.
43:39
Speaker 2: Well, it's all very good advice, Norell, and I want
43:42
Speaker 2: to thank you for sharing your stories today, and I
43:44
Speaker 2: think this is very useful for people indeed, So thanks
43:46
Speaker 2: for your time.
43:47
Speaker 1: Thank you, Adam. It's a pleasure.
43:53
Speaker 2: Noel Fraser, what an amazing career. We do ask our
43:56
Speaker 2: police people to put themselves in harm's way, and it's
44:00
Speaker 2: only recently that we're starting to appreciate the toll of that.
44:03
Speaker 2: And when you look at that case, Lorraine Joy Carter
44:07
Speaker 2: and Norel's inability to close that one, the red hot
44:11
Speaker 2: suspect to be turning back and saying was the police
44:13
Speaker 2: that made him take his own life is very hard
44:15
Speaker 2: to take for a police officer. I'm sure that contributed
44:18
Speaker 2: to Norell's problems, and it's great to see she's come
44:20
Speaker 2: back and she's sharing these stories for the benefit of everyone.
44:23
Speaker 2: But Lorraine's case remains open. In my opinion, that someone's
44:27
Speaker 2: still out there may have some information that could help Norell,
44:31
Speaker 2: even though she's out of the job now to close
44:33
Speaker 2: that one. If you have any information, why don't you
44:36
Speaker 2: call crime stoppers? Why don't hundred triple three, triple zero.
44:39
Speaker 2: All information is treated as confidential. If you don't trust
44:42
Speaker 2: the cops, you can always send me an email Adam
44:44
Speaker 2: Shanned writer at gmail dot com. But don't sit there
44:48
Speaker 2: and not say anything, say something. Come forward as always
44:51
Speaker 2: someone who knows something that can close these cases. Even
44:55
Speaker 2: though her parents are gone, she deserves it. This has
44:59
Speaker 2: been Adam shanf for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
45:09
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45:13
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