Latest / The Two Authors’ Podcast / Writing From Experience with April Henry

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Writing From Experience with April Henry · The Two Authors’ Podcast

• 0:00
  I stopped writing and I didn't start writing again until I was about 30.
• 0:03
  And then I read a book from the library that was really bad.
• 0:07
  And I was like mad at it after I finished it.
• 0:12
  I was like, what a waste of time.
• 0:14
  Wow.
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  And then I saw it had been published by one of the biggest publishers.
• 0:17
  And I was like, wait.
• 0:19
  Oh, I thought you were going to say it was a Doug Pratt.
• 0:25
  Welcome to the Two Authors podcast,
• 0:27
  an entertaining chat show hosted by bestselling mystery and thriller authors Douglas Pratt
• 0:33
  and Nicholas Harvey in lively, humorous and informative conversation with distinguished
• 0:39
  guests who share their thoughts and experience about forging a successful author career.
• 0:47
  Welcome to this week's episode of the Two Authors podcast brought to you as always by the
• 0:53
  Fabulous vellum. How you doing Doug?
• 0:56
  Fabulous. Oh, I am doing fantabulous too. How are you?
• 1:00
  It's a fantabulous day. Let's keep this rolling. Yeah.
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  So if you're doing the print on demand, I am jonesing to do this because I haven't done it yet.
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  I'm gearing up to do a Kickstarter and maybe something featured around
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  author nation and reader nation where we'll both be and we'll be both be signing it.
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  Re-donation in November. So I'm kind of jonesen to do a special edition type thing which will include printed edges but.
• 1:27
  The feature in vellum is what they call four stages.
• 1:32
  So I say it's forced a new show to the round is pretty cool.
• 1:36
  Yeah which you can just do on your all your paperbacks if you want it's it really doesn't cost anything once you've set it up to do it.
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  And it basically prints around the very edge of the page and creates what looks like a
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  sprayed edge on the edge of the pages.
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  It's really cool.
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  And the integrate artwork that you can do through people like painted wings and printed
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  edges are a couple of companies that do it.
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  And then boom, Valem handles it all.
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  And yeah.
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  That's kind of cool.
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  So you should do like a, I think you'd be cool with on the spine, you have a little scooby
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  diver going up the side of the spine like that.
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  Let me kind of, yeah.
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  Yeah, we talked about that before.
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  Wouldn't that be cool?
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  Maybe an octopus climbing around the corner or something.
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  Octopus climbing.
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  Yeah, that would be really...
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  There's endless stuff for the AJ series I could do.
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  The AJ series got a lot of potential for that.
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  Yeah, Nora could just be an image of Nora just looking at you like you're an idiot.
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  I do feel like when I read your Nora books, I'm like, "Oh, it's like dealing with my teenagers."
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  They're just like staring at me.
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  Yeah, just staring blankly.
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  I feel like she judges me as I'm reading her.
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  She judges everybody.
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  Yeah, absolutely.
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  She judges me and I'm creative.
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  All right, big thank you to all our friends at Patreon.
• 2:54
  We really do appreciate the support.
• 2:56
  If you think of value from the show,
• 2:59
  jump on over there to patreon.com,
• 3:01
  the Two Authors podcast.
• 3:02
  Give us a little love, we appreciate it.
• 3:04
  And today's guest is New York Times bestselling author
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  of many acclaimed mysteries for adults
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  and over $15 for teens, April Henry,
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  Bestselling Girls. She wrote the Bestseller Girl, Stole and Gold Forgotten. Won the Edgar Award.
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  Two Truths and a Lie was the Yulsa Top 10 Quick Pick for reluctant young adult readers. I can't
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  wait to ask her about reluctant readers. And the girl I used to be was an Edgar Award finalist
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  and won the Antony Award for Best YA Mystery. She recently released another hit In the Blood
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  for Teens and Young Adults and we'll chat with April shortly. But first, we have a listener
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  question from our recent guest, MJ Khan.
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  - Our wonderful friend, MJ Khan.
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  Thank you so much for sticking around.
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  And you have a question to lay on us.
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  What you got?
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  - If you had to look at your flagship series
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  and step into that world,
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  would you want to be able to walk in
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  your main character's shoes?
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  And if you did, what skill set do they have
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  that you would most cherish having?
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  (laughing)
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  Man, my mind went like crazy there, right?
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  So I've got three series and one I do with Doug.
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  So Nora Summer, I said,
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  if anyone's read a Nora Summer book,
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  man, I think it would be interesting
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  to step into her brain, that's for sure.
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  But because my original series, the AJ Bailey series,
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  is diving related, I think I'd have to step into AJ's shoes
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  to do all the diving stuff,
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  'cause that would be the coolest thing ever.
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  And what is the skill?
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  What is the thing, attribute that she has
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  that I would most like to get my hands on?
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  Well, she's female, so she has boobs, there's that.
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  (laughing)
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  That was the first thing that sprung to this mind.
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  So you can tell where my head is.
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  So Doug, you wanna take over?
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  - No, at this point, yes, I want to save you
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  before you get canceled, so good Lord.
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  I guess, you know, yeah, 'cause Chase is my,
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  is probably my flagship series.
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  So I can jump into his life.
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  He lives on a boat.
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  He lives in South Florida and he has always beautiful women.
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  So I'm not sure that that's a you're halfway to his life already.
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  I know you have a sailboat.
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  You have a beautiful wife.
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  Yeah, I just need to move to South Florida and kill a few people on the.
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  But let's see.
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  So and then the aspect about him, I think I kind of think the basically
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  his just demeanor that is is part of like why I write him that way is
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  It's kind of a demeanor I wish I had, which is just I'm not going to put up with your
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  shit.
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  But at the same time, there's some compassion built in there with a little bit of pretty
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  laid back and pretty laid back.
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  Yeah.
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  But also, you know, he's got an opinion and he doesn't mind sharing it and that kind of
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  thing.
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  So yeah, that's cool.
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  All right, MJ, what about you?
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  You better you better go paranormal fantasy on this one.
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  You know, if I had to step into one of mine, I don't know.
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  I mean, you know, I think that one of the paranormal's,
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  you know, my main character, you know, in that series,
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  yeah, is a wolf shifter.
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  So I just think that it would be cool just for once
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  to be able to experience the world through the eyes
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  and the ears of, you know, an animal, especially a wolf,
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  something that's just high up on the predator chain.
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  Nothing I'm gonna, nothing I'm gonna like chase anybody
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  or anything, I just wanna know, it's like, you know,
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  what is it like to just have all of your senses firing
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  at that type of a level for so long.
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  And then my thrillers, my other flagship is the Jesse Knight
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  throws in, I just don't know if I'd even wanna be
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  in that world because it's just so horrible.
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  You're being hunted all the time by crazed killers.
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  And I would like to, if I had to have one of her abilities,
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  it would be to always be hyper aware of my surroundings.
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  It may sound like paranoia, but at the same time,
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  I go through the world and I'm like,
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  I don't even know how I drove home sometimes.
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  I'm like, what is happening?
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  I would like to be able to pay attention to everything for Joe Smalls.
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  Yeah, it's weird.
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  Like our characters like that are, they have always that super ability to just be aware.
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  Like, and so Chase is the same way.
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  He's always like, you know, aware of his surrounding.
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  What's going to be the problem?
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  That would be an interesting, yeah.
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  To be that aware, I'm pretty oblivious.
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  Oh, yeah, me too.
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  Yeah, I just, you know, I have my little rose colored glasses on.
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  Somebody's being stabbed over there next door.
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  And I'm like, I didn't even know what happened.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  Oh, are you okay?
• 7:27
  Yeah, brilliant. Great question. Thank you so much for sticking around with us. We really appreciate it.
• 7:32
  You are so welcome. Thank you guys.
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  April Henry, thank you so much for joining us on the show. How are you doing?
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  I'm doing great.
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  As we record this, a little excited because you just had a recent release. How's in the blood doing?
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  I think it's done pretty well. I've been on a bunch of podcasts. I had a feature in Publishers Weekly.
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  I wrote an essay for Writers Digest. I wrote another essay for School Library Journal.
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  But you never really know how things are going. And I worry a little bit as people
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  are watching costs climb and gas cost so much money, whether there's going to be free money to buy books.
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  It's definitely a thing at the moment as we're both Indies. So we get that instant feedback
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  because we see those numbers, especially if you're through Amazon, if you're through some of the
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  feedback in a day or two, you kind of get an idea. But, you know, when we talk to a
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  traditionally published authors, they're like, "I think it's going okay. It'll be a
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  month or two until I really know." All right. Let's get started with a little bit of background.
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  How did you first get involved in writing and when were you first published?
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  Well, when I was a little kid, I loved to read. And I started when I was about 11 or 12 thinking
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  about whether I could write my own short stories. So I wrote a short story about a six-foot
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  a tall frog named Herman who loved peanut butter.
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  And I decided the Royal Doll, you know,
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  who wrote Matilda and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory,
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  I thought, I bet he would like my story.
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  So my dad showed me how in the front of the book
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  it has the address to the publisher.
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  He said, why don't you try sending your story care
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  of the publisher to Royal Doll?
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  So I sent it off to New York
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  and eventually it made its way over to England.
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  And then eventually, eventually Royal Doll
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  sent me back a postcard telling me
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  how much he liked my story.
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  And he actually took it with him to lunch.
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  He showed it to his editor
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  and she had a children's magazine called Puffin Post.
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  And she asked if she could publish my story.
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  So, "Roll doll kind of made me be a writer."
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  - Wow. - Oh my God, what a story.
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  Tell me you've still got the postcard.
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  - I do, I still have a postcard.
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  - For, you know, we're audio, not video,
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  but this is framed right here.
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  She just showed it to us.
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  - That is really cool.
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  Man, Royal Doll is like, I mean, we all grew up with him.
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  - Yes, I just finished listening to the podcast,
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  The Secret Royal Doll, which I would really recommend.
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  He was a fighter pilot, a spy, a medical inventor.
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  There's many sides to him.
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  Some not as great.
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  (laughing)
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  - But he was a superb critic of young girls'
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  short stories, apparently.
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  - And great, so encouraging.
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  Like he basically, I mean, had he not said that,
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  said that postcard to you probably spurred you on to do.
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  So like, I would be like, oh yeah, I can write forever.
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  So, uh...
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  - Well, if actually what happened was,
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  I was growing up in a little logging town in Southern Oregon.
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  And so as I got older, I didn't know any writers.
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  It felt like wanting to be a magical unicorn.
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  I mean, it'd be cool if we were magical unicorns,
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  but I just thought that there's no way somebody like me,
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  I felt like, yeah, I'd probably be born in New York
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  or San Francisco or something.
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  So I stopped writing and I didn't start writing again until I was about 30.
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  And then I read a book from the library that was really bad.
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  And I was like mad at it after I finished it.
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  I was like, what a waste of time.
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  And then I saw it had been published by one of the biggest publishers.
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  And I was like, wait, oh, I thought you were going to say it was a Doug Pratt.
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  I was like, I could write a book as bad as that.
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  That's all you need to do.
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  So, but it wasn't until I wrote a first book that got 107 rejection letters from agents.
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  I wrote a second book that got 53 rejections from agents, but then the 54th lady called me from New
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  York and she said she wanted to be my agent. She took that book out to editors to try to sell it.
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  We got a bunch of nice rejection letters. I know they were nice rejection letters because I wrote
• 11:41
  a third book and it didn't even get nice rejection letters. And then I wrote a fourth book and
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  it sold in two days. So it started saying I was an overnight success and it was like
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  it took me nine years to be an overnight success.
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  Oh my gosh, what a brutal day.
• 11:58
  It's a very long night, wouldn't it?
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  Yes. It's a very long night.
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  12 years old, you have this amazing, encouraging, beautiful experience with Raul Dahl, only to
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  go, "Okay, later on, I'm going to give this a real go." And then you get slapped around
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  the face like 200 times. That's the real awakening of the publishing business.
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  So now you went full-time though. How long ago was that that you went there?
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  Quit my day job February 1st, 2008. And I remember just really wanting to throw up. I quit it
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  - I think February 1st, so that I would have
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  the full month of health insurance after that.
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  - Yeah.
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  - But 2008, think about that.
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  What was going on in, especially in America,
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  but in the world?
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  - Oh yes, yes.
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  I was watching the stock market take
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  and wondering what was gonna happen.
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  And it all worked out.
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  There's been times where I've taught
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  a little bit on the side,
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  or trying to think what else I did for money.
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  You know, every now and then you're like,
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  because what happens when you go freelance
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  is the money that you expected to come in at a certain time.
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  Turns out it's gonna be really late
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  and money that you didn't know about happens
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  and it more or less works out in the wash.
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  More or less, there are, we have some panicky times
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  and luckily for a long time,
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  my husband carried the health insurance for us
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  and worked full time, but then he went freelance
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  And we both, that was interesting.
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  - That's such a big deal in the US
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  where health insurance is so pricey.
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  It's a big, big deal for authors to go.
• 13:47
  Once you go self-employed, it's a big step.
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  - Well, they hooked it up with employment
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  back when there was, you couldn't pay people more money.
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  There was some kind of price controls are going on.
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  So the employers were looking around for a way
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  to make themselves more attractive.
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  And they said, oh, what if we bundled health insurance
• 14:06
  in with it?
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  And then that, unfortunately, now it's all connected,
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  but most jobs don't even offer it anymore.
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  A lot of the lower level ones.
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  - Or an order, an order so, yeah,
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  the cost for it is insane.
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  Yeah, it's insane.
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  Yeah, it's always crazy.
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  Yeah, I don't know.
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  That's part of the reason I'm unemployable, I think.
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  That's what I was thinking.
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  (laughing)
• 14:26
  - Yeah.
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  - Which, that sounds like, I mean,
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  I went full time in 2020,
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  but I quit right before the pandemic.
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  And I was like, man, if I'd have waited a couple of weeks,
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  I could have probably been put on like a hiatus
• 14:36
  for my job anyway.
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  And still been paid for a little bit.
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  But no, I was like, no, January,
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  I'm like quit right now the whole time.
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  - Seemed like a good point to start.
• 14:47
  - It seemed like, well, I thought I was gonna be able
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  to be home with everybody myself and be some writing,
• 14:51
  but then no, everybody was home with me.
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  So that didn't help any so.
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  - Okay, so one of the things that I read about
• 14:58
  that happened to you was this ordeal
• 15:00
  where someone broke into your home?
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  - Yes, I broke into my apartment
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  when I was a college student
• 15:07
  and I really think it's what made me be a mystery writer.
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  So I lived in these old ramshackle apartments
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  and there was a retaining wall behind them
• 15:15
  because the hill was gradually sliding down.
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  And so the retaining wall was only like a foot away.
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  So most people didn't bother to put curtains back up there
• 15:25
  'cause then why would you bother?
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  It's just a wall.
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  And I was, this was so long ago,
• 15:30
  I was doing Jane Fonda exercises.
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  And I kept hearing rustling, and I thought it was raccoons.
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  And then I went to take a shower,
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  and I'm in my shower in this apartment
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  where the bathroom door was warped.
• 15:45
  It did not even fit all the way into the frame,
• 15:48
  so you couldn't close it all the way.
• 15:50
  - Nice apartment you got there.
• 15:51
  - Yeah, this is college, true college digs.
• 15:54
  - It is college.
• 15:56
  So I heard the sound of somebody forcing open
• 15:59
  kitchen window and I'll never forget just turning off the water and standing there and staring at
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  the door that is just kind of stuck but is not going to be lockable and then the window behind
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  me was too small and it was painted shut and I'm like naked and wet and I'm like oh my god there's
• 16:17
  someone in my apartment so I pulled on some clothes and I walked out into the hall and it was all
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  dark except for a light the bathroom light behind me and I just stopped and I said who's in my kitchen
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  And he didn't say anything, but I heard him breathing.
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  And then I heard a little voice in the back of my head,
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  and it said, you're an idiot.
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  You need to run.
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  [LAUGHTER]
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  So I ran, and I was too afraid to reach back into the apartment
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  to close the door behind me, because I thought he would grab me.
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  And I knocked on my neighbor's door.
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  He was going to law school.
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  I mean, we really looked to site, because he
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  was wearing these little tiny bikini briefs,
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  and I'm in this soaking wet leotard.
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  And he was like, let's call that new emergency number 119.
• 17:03
  And I was like, I think it's 911, Howard.
• 17:06
  (laughing)
• 17:08
  The police came--
• 17:08
  - Howard sound like he was--
• 17:11
  - Well, she banged on the door of a lawyer.
• 17:12
  You couldn't find somebody who'd be,
• 17:14
  what's he gonna sue the guy while he's still in the place?
• 17:17
  - He was in law school.
• 17:18
  - Oh, right.
• 17:18
  - I think the kidney briefs are the one
• 17:20
  that really sells it.
• 17:22
  - Okay, so Howard had been smoking pot.
• 17:25
  - I assumed Howard was probably smoking something.
• 17:28
  - It was not legal.
• 17:30
  So he was, after he called the police,
• 17:32
  he had all the windows open
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  and he's running around flapping his arms,
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  trying to get the smoke smell out.
• 17:39
  And the cops showed up and we went back into my apartment
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  and he was gone.
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  And then we were talking and there was a thump
• 17:46
  from my bedroom and both cops threw their guns
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  and pointed them down the hallway
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  and then out walked to my cat.
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  It was like a bad jump scare in a horror movie.
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  - Oh my God.
• 17:57
  So we were all laughing and then they said,
• 18:00
  "Did he take anything?"
• 18:00
  And I said, "The only thing that's missing is my dish towels."
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  And I thought that was funny.
• 18:05
  I started laughing about that.
• 18:07
  And the male cop looked at me and he said,
• 18:09
  "Ma'am, he was gonna tie you up with them."
• 18:11
  So I could have died that night.
• 18:13
  I definitely would have been raped and possibly murdered.
• 18:17
  A couple of years ago, I got curious and I looked for that.
• 18:20
  There's a website for unsolved homicides in Portland.
• 18:24
  I looked for my year and I looked for women.
• 18:27
  And there was a girl that was going to Portland State
• 18:30
  the same as I was who lived three miles away.
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  And two months later, she was strangled in her apartment
• 18:37
  and they've never caught the killer.
• 18:39
  It could just be a coincidence,
• 18:40
  but I remember looking at her face and just thinking,
• 18:44
  "Wow, that could have been me."
• 18:46
  But I think like for a long time, I didn't think about it.
• 18:49
  I just pushed it away, but it made it be
• 18:52
  that every time I read a story about some woman
• 18:55
  where an escaped prisoner breaks into her house
• 18:58
  or something like that, I'll think,
• 19:00
  could I survive that situation?
• 19:02
  What would I do if I were her?
• 19:04
  And I think it started planning the seeds for me,
• 19:06
  writing thrillers and mysteries.
• 19:09
  - And now a quick word from this episode sponsor.
• 19:12
  - Eloisa James, New York Times bestseller,
• 19:15
  30 plus novels, millions of copies,
• 19:17
  and a Shakespeare professor at Fordham
• 19:20
  is coming to Author Nation to teach how best sellers actually get written.
• 19:25
  Not luck, craft.
• 19:27
  Come learn how the list gets made.
• 19:29
  Sign up at AuthorNation.Live.
• 19:32
  I have a million questions that spur from this thing.
• 19:35
  What a terrifying experience.
• 19:37
  So I mean, the first, I mean, when you're writing and you're writing from a victim's
• 19:43
  perspective, you have one of the best pieces of experience to
• 19:50
  write from. I can only imagine how authentic those scenes you
• 19:53
  write are. It had to have as traumatic as it is, it has to
• 19:57
  have the looking at the positives, it has to have
• 19:59
  helped.
• 20:00
  That I think it did, I think it did very much. And then I try to
• 20:03
  write characters who are are smart. And if you're smart, and
• 20:07
  you are calm, maybe you could think of something to do. I
• 20:13
  I would have been able to think of something to do,
• 20:16
  but I don't know, sometimes I feel like you
• 20:18
  in your imagination, you're always a lot more clever
• 20:21
  and fast moving and fast thinking,
• 20:23
  whereas in reality, maybe you're just like panicked
• 20:26
  and going, "Oh my God, oh my God."
• 20:28
  - As a general rule, I'm always not as fast
• 20:31
  and quick thinking as I think I am anyway.
• 20:33
  So I can't imagine in a situation like that.
• 20:37
  - It's also comfort levels in circumstances.
• 20:41
  the circumstance, you're not in. You're never in, right? I mean, you're never in that environment.
• 20:47
  He is. This is what he does. He's there for the purpose with a goal, and he's putting himself
• 20:54
  in an environment that he deliberately put himself into. And that's one of the...
• 20:57
  And he shows it, right?
• 20:57
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 20:58
  The other thing is that your reaction in the moment actually seems pretty straight,
• 21:04
  clear-headed to the most part, like as opposed to just panicking. You just realized, run. You know,
• 21:08
  Some people get that panic and just freeze.
• 21:11
  So you, that's, and that's a different kind of psychology altogether.
• 21:15
  Yeah.
• 21:15
  They do talk about fight, flight or freeze, you know, that those are the three things.
• 21:21
  And I do Brazilian jujitsu now.
• 21:23
  And I do think that at least it would get past me, past the shock of someone
• 21:28
  just hurt me or something that I had.
• 21:31
  I, I hope that I wouldn't freeze as much that I would be, you know, move on from
• 21:36
  that other than the shock.
• 21:38
  Was that interest in martial arts spurred by this incident?
• 21:42
  It was quite a few years later.
• 21:44
  I took a kickboxing class that was a hands off and you just kicked bags.
• 21:48
  But it was really fun.
• 21:49
  And the guy who taught it, we had a black belt in a different martial
• 21:53
  out, Kachikambo.
• 21:54
  So he started teaching us Kachikambo.
• 21:57
  And then I went from there to Kung Fu and then I went from there to Jiu Jitsu.
• 22:01
  I don't think I have the knees anymore to do Kung Fu.
• 22:04
  There's a lot of like horse stance squats for a long time.
• 22:09
  And I don't think my knees would do that anymore.
• 22:12
  - Yeah, I used to do a little taekwondo.
• 22:15
  I can imagine now my knees would be cracking
• 22:17
  every time I went to the kick.
• 22:19
  (laughing)
• 22:20
  Was that the board cracking dope?
• 22:21
  That was my knee.
• 22:22
  It was my knee cracking.
• 22:25
  You're also really big into research.
• 22:26
  So I mean, you've done like some live abduction escape stuff.
• 22:30
  - Yeah, that was probably the craziest class I ever took.
• 22:33
  It was called urban escape and evasion.
• 22:35
  It's for people who are already about being kidnapped.
• 22:38
  So the kinds of people who took out were like reporters,
• 22:41
  who maybe you're gonna go work in Ukraine or something.
• 22:43
  It's people who are gonna be in an unstable, poor country.
• 22:48
  Like there was a woman who went on safari recently
• 22:51
  that was kidnapped, or if you're gonna do a mission trip
• 22:54
  overseas to an unstable country.
• 22:56
  And then the other people who took the class
• 22:58
  were preppers and crazy people.
• 23:01
  So.
• 23:02
  (laughing)
• 23:04
  - Often used in the same sentence.
• 23:06
  - Are you talking real crazy people or authors?
• 23:08
  Because you know they--
• 23:09
  - Well, we heard them.
• 23:10
  I was the first author to take it
• 23:12
  and then I asked an author friend of mine to come with me
• 23:15
  because on the last day,
• 23:17
  since what you do something stuff that's pretty dangerous,
• 23:20
  they want you to partner up with their idea.
• 23:22
  I guess one of you would survive or something.
• 23:25
  So.
• 23:26
  (laughing)
• 23:27
  We spent like two days in a hotel room
• 23:30
  learning how to get out of duct tape and rope
• 23:32
  and zip ties, handcuffs, how to steal a car,
• 23:36
  how to make an improvised weapon,
• 23:37
  how to make fake ID, how to pick locks.
• 23:41
  It was just all kinds of like how to climb a barb wire fence.
• 23:45
  A lot of it was hands-on.
• 23:46
  The only thing we actually didn't practice
• 23:48
  was stealing a car.
• 23:49
  And the last day you are--
• 23:51
  - I know a guy that can help you do that here in Memphis.
• 23:53
  - Yeah.
• 23:54
  The person who was leading the class
• 23:55
  actually offered to sell us bump keys
• 23:57
  that I was like, I don't feel comfortable to buy.
• 24:02
  (laughing)
• 24:03
  Yeah, the people who led the class
• 24:05
  were not the most normal people.
• 24:08
  So there was one guy who was like the handcuff expert,
• 24:13
  but he was boasting about how he had smuggled something
• 24:16
  out of a country that he wasn't supposed to take out.
• 24:18
  I can't remember what it was,
• 24:20
  but his big trick was that he would wrap the thing
• 24:24
  he wanted them not to look at in underwear
• 24:27
  would smear a chocolate candy all over the underwear.
• 24:31
  So when the person would be going through his bag,
• 24:33
  they'd be like, "Eh!"
• 24:34
  And they wouldn't touch it
• 24:36
  because of what they thought it was,
• 24:38
  but it was really just a chocolate candy.
• 24:40
  So he had more of a criminal mind than I have, I think.
• 24:44
  - Yeah, I feel like if I,
• 24:46
  why would someone pack soiled underwear?
• 24:49
  I mean, that's a bit suspicious right out of the gate.
• 24:52
  - If you're on a trip though,
• 24:53
  and you soil your underwear,
• 24:54
  when you get it, I mean, I would throw it away,
• 24:55
  probably, I guess, under where it is.
• 24:57
  I'm going Commando.
• 24:58
  - You're like, "Yeah."
• 25:00
  (laughing)
• 25:01
  - I'm Commando right now.
• 25:03
  - I was saying, this guy was a Commando,
• 25:05
  you heard him, he was like.
• 25:06
  (laughing)
• 25:07
  - All right, books, let's get back.
• 25:09
  Let's get back on track.
• 25:10
  All right, you're a big researcher.
• 25:12
  You, I read that you really like to dive in
• 25:16
  and that's some cases of physically pursuing stuff.
• 25:20
  But presumably you do a lot of research online
• 25:23
  and what have you to study the situations as well.
• 25:25
  Do you have a level of comfort?
• 25:27
  you have to get to, to be able to write those scenes?
• 25:30
  - I'm not a very squeamish person.
• 25:32
  There's like, I have--
• 25:33
  - We've learned that real quick.
• 25:35
  (laughing)
• 25:38
  - I have eaten lunch and looked at autopsy photos.
• 25:41
  There's only been one thing I saw
• 25:42
  and one thing I heard one time
• 25:44
  that I wish both of those things hadn't happened.
• 25:46
  But, and then I think also it's just
• 25:49
  trying to be imaginative for what you look for.
• 25:52
  And like certain things I'm just not willing
• 25:54
  to experience myself.
• 25:56
  If I want to have a character who almost drowns in the ocean,
• 25:59
  I'm not going to go throw myself out in the ocean and make notes.
• 26:02
  I'm just going to Google until--
• 26:04
  So find somebody who did--
• 26:05
  I almost drowned in the ocean.
• 26:07
  And then you find someone's personal account.
• 26:09
  And then you can use some of the sensory details
• 26:13
  if you're lucky they talk about it.
• 26:14
  Or I've looked for what does it feel like to be shot by a gun?
• 26:18
  Does it-- how bad does it feel?
• 26:21
  But I feel like I'm a really good Googler.
• 26:24
  I could find almost anything over time.
• 26:28
  So for my new book, I had these characters
• 26:31
  who were trapped in a storage unit
• 26:35
  to characters by a bad guy and he set it on fire.
• 26:39
  And then I tried Googling about fires in storage units.
• 26:42
  Lots of people have died in storage unit fires,
• 26:45
  usually people who are living in their storage unit
• 26:48
  and drop a cigarette or something.
• 26:49
  So I just could not figure out a way for them to survive.
• 26:53
  And we even had a storage unit at the time and I would go down and look at it and I just
• 26:57
  couldn't see how it would work.
• 26:59
  But I found a thing called storage unit chat or something and it was for people who were
• 27:06
  the owners of storage unit facilities and I got special permission to join the group
• 27:13
  and then I posted like how can I get these characters out alive.
• 27:17
  Because I was creating an imaginary storage unit but I did not want it to be like oh there's
• 27:22
  There's a second door nobody noticed or whatever.
• 27:26
  And so the people were really helpful.
• 27:28
  And then the one who was the most helpful, his username was HilltopBob.
• 27:33
  And I just sent him a copy of the book so that he could -- and thanked him in the acknowledgments
• 27:38
  for helping me figure it out.
• 27:40
  >> Those forums are really -- I've used Reddit in similar ways.
• 27:43
  >> Yes, Reddit can be useful.
• 27:45
  >> I had a skydiving question.
• 27:46
  I'm not a skydiver.
• 27:47
  I thought I'm opposed, but I was curious about -- it was more advanced.
• 27:51
  I posed the question.
• 27:52
  You get a few people who are like,
• 27:54
  "Well, this is a stupid question."
• 27:56
  Then they have a handful be like, "No, no,
• 27:58
  they really get involved.
• 27:58
  Oh, no, you could do this."
• 28:00
  And it's amazing how much people really want to help you.
• 28:02
  And you help you, yeah.
• 28:05
  So--
• 28:05
  - Have you never skydived?
• 28:06
  - I have never skydived.
• 28:07
  It's on my bucket list.
• 28:09
  - You should, yeah.
• 28:10
  - We should do it.
• 28:10
  Let's do it.
• 28:11
  - I've done it.
• 28:11
  - I'm sure you have.
• 28:12
  - I fell out of a plane with a parachute.
• 28:14
  - We could do it.
• 28:15
  Two authors, you know, a little bit on the way down.
• 28:20
  (laughing)
• 28:21
  - All right. - Listen to us,
• 28:22
  listen to us, yeah.
• 28:24
  - Yeah, really. - We digress there.
• 28:26
  - Yeah, yeah, we tend to do this.
• 28:27
  All right, so let's talk about your process a little bit.
• 28:30
  Are you a plotter?
• 28:31
  - I am a plancer.
• 28:34
  I plot and pants, kind of.
• 28:36
  So I'm working on a new book.
• 28:37
  - Join our club, that's our club right here.
• 28:40
  - I'm working on a new book right now
• 28:42
  and I really love Save the Cat.
• 28:45
  And so I'm going through the Save the Cat beats
• 28:48
  and using kind of structure, the story,
• 28:51
  and think about where is the all is lost moment
• 28:55
  or where's the fun and games and what's gonna be in it.
• 28:59
  But what I've found is if you plot in advance,
• 29:02
  'cause I usually sell on a couple of chapters in an outline.
• 29:08
  So, but they don't ever make me stick to the outline
• 29:11
  because a lot of times I find that you planned out
• 29:14
  something was gonna happen, but by the time you get there,
• 29:17
  you realize that character would never do the thing
• 29:19
  that you plan, so you have to change it.
• 29:22
  But I've noticed that I've been kind of dragging my feet
• 29:25
  a little bit and I think it's because I feel like I don't
• 29:28
  have a perfect way to begin it, but I can't let the perfect
• 29:31
  be the enemy of the good.
• 29:32
  I need to stop plotting and start writing.
• 29:35
  - Yep, yep.
• 29:36
  Once you start getting it down there,
• 29:37
  then it opens the doors, right?
• 29:39
  - Let's talk about your most recent release then,
• 29:41
  "In the Blood," which I guess I might say,
• 29:44
  this is kind of like your own genetic genealogy journey.
• 29:48
  In some ways it was.
• 29:49
  So I've always been interested in genetic genealogy.
• 29:54
  Of course, that's not really been a thing
• 29:56
  until recently or the last 25 years or something.
• 29:59
  So after my parents died,
• 30:02
  I inherited a bunch of photographs
• 30:04
  and I wanted to know who these people were
• 30:05
  and they were mostly unlabeled
• 30:07
  and some of them were like tin types.
• 30:09
  And a few of them said useful things like mother on the back.
• 30:12
  (all laughing)
• 30:14
  - Of course.
• 30:15
  - So I was like, who are these people?
• 30:17
  - Little John.
• 30:19
  - Yes, I paid to have all three of my brother
• 30:23
  and my sister and I DNA tested
• 30:25
  and I started building a family tree.
• 30:27
  Then I started realizing there's pieces that people
• 30:30
  that show that they're like my second cousin
• 30:33
  but their family tree doesn't have any of the names.
• 30:35
  My family tree, hasn't it?
• 30:37
  And when found a few people that were, you know,
• 30:40
  their dad on paper wasn't their dad in real life
• 30:43
  and that's how we were related.
• 30:45
  It's a really fun puzzle.
• 30:47
  if you guys were looking for something to do for a good year.
• 30:50
  (laughing)
• 30:51
  It will keep you occupied.
• 30:53
  - I have done some genealogy and I enjoy it.
• 30:55
  Like it's a lot, the history of it is always fascinating
• 30:58
  to see like your family history in that way.
• 31:01
  - Yeah.
• 31:01
  - And then I just--
• 31:02
  - And see if you can get to the stories
• 31:03
  that go behind it.
• 31:04
  So.
• 31:05
  - Which you have a few.
• 31:07
  - Yeah.
• 31:08
  I had found out just through Googling my grandmother.
• 31:11
  I was curious about her and luckily she has a weird name
• 31:15
  or had a weird name, Effie Satterwhite.
• 31:17
  So when I Googled her, I found this whole Arkansas State
• 31:19
  Supreme Court case from 1907.
• 31:22
  I just thought it was someone with the same weird name,
• 31:24
  but it turned out it was her when she was 18.
• 31:27
  Her dad, my great-grandfather, shot and killed her boyfriend
• 31:31
  for kissing her.
• 31:33
  So I was like--
• 31:34
  - Well, that is Arkansas.
• 31:36
  I mean, they weren't related, so.
• 31:37
  (laughs)
• 31:38
  - It kind of explained why she was always
• 31:40
  kind of a bitter person, because his entire defense
• 31:44
  was kind of like slut shaming.
• 31:46
  He was like, oh, I wouldn't have had to shoot him,
• 31:49
  but my daughter wouldn't stop kissing him.
• 31:51
  So, and he couldn't trust her.
• 31:54
  He said he had to defend her virtue.
• 31:56
  So I was like, well, that makes a lot of sense.
• 32:00
  No wonder she didn't get married until she was 30,
• 32:02
  didn't have her.
• 32:05
  - She couldn't get married until her dad died.
• 32:07
  - How could you find a new boyfriend
• 32:09
  if your dad murdered the last one?
• 32:11
  - Exactly.
• 32:12
  - But the family hushed it all up.
• 32:14
  there's not really hardly any references to it.
• 32:17
  Someone else I know has a letter where they just talk
• 32:19
  about how now that Papa is away and away was prison.
• 32:24
  Yeah, so, and then I started getting curious
• 32:28
  about other relatives that turned out another paternal,
• 32:31
  maternal great grandfather was an arsonist
• 32:36
  who died in an insane asylum.
• 32:40
  There's over the pandemic, I found out that my
• 32:44
  great grandfather was basically lied his way through all these military things and then
• 32:52
  faked his own death and got married two more times.
• 32:55
  Oh my gosh.
• 32:56
  So I come from a long line of criminals.
• 32:59
  Yeah, I love the way that you've taken this gene pool and channeled it into books.
• 33:03
  You've taken all of this stuff and you write it into books instead of acting out.
• 33:07
  I mean, maybe in your spare time, your hobby is setting fire to people, but it doesn't
• 33:12
  seem like it is.
• 33:13
  It seems like it all goes in the books.
• 33:14
  - That's how she writes such good books.
• 33:16
  She likes like, hey, I like the research.
• 33:18
  (laughing)
• 33:20
  - Well, I'm not gonna be like,
• 33:21
  it seems like anymore,
• 33:22
  anytime anyone is arrested for murder,
• 33:25
  it's like on his phone,
• 33:26
  it will say like, how dispose of a 142-town body, you know?
• 33:32
  - I do feel like we as writers would get away with murder
• 33:35
  a whole lot better than some other people.
• 33:37
  - Yeah, we have cover,
• 33:38
  'cause it's all gonna be blended in with everything else.
• 33:41
  - Until they look at all sorts of history,
• 33:43
  - Yeah, but all you gotta do is write a book about it.
• 33:47
  And then why would I do that?
• 33:49
  Why would I kill somebody and write a book just like it?
• 33:51
  That doesn't make any sense.
• 33:53
  It's somebody obviously read it and tried to frame me.
• 33:55
  I don't know, I think we'd get away with it.
• 33:57
  So as we say this on the line, on airs.
• 34:00
  - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:01
  Well, perfectly, all they need to do is listen
• 34:05
  to this podcast and they'll go,
• 34:06
  "Well, those guys are all cool too."
• 34:07
  - I know those guys, yeah.
• 34:09
  - All right, so the genealogy part of it
• 34:11
  is absolutely fascinating.
• 34:12
  So you built this into the story and in the blood
• 34:15
  and how does it frame in the story?
• 34:17
  - Well, I had a girl who's adopted
• 34:20
  and she's very curious about her adopted parents
• 34:22
  and like a lot of adopted kids, she has these fantasies
• 34:26
  about who are her parents?
• 34:28
  Are they actors?
• 34:29
  Are they famous?
• 34:30
  Are they scientists?
• 34:32
  What was it about them?
• 34:33
  And she takes a DNA test when she turns 18
• 34:37
  and she starts trying to build a family tree
• 34:40
  and it's really difficult.
• 34:41
  For that part, I talked to Leah Larkin, who's a pretty well-known genetic genealogist.
• 34:47
  She helped me figure out how I could make it that you wouldn't find many matches on family
• 34:51
  trees.
• 34:52
  And so she finally figures out her mother is missing, seems to have run away from home,
• 34:58
  and she can't figure out her dad.
• 35:00
  She puts her DNA on Jed match, and the police are very excited.
• 35:04
  They're allowed, Jed match is one of the places that works with law enforcement.
• 35:08
  And so they can tell that she's the daughter of the Portland Phantom serial killer that
• 35:13
  they've been looking for for over a decade.
• 35:16
  So it's like nature and nurture, who are you if your half-year genes came from a evil
• 35:24
  man?
• 35:24
  There's at least three memoirs by women who are the daughters of serial killers trying
• 35:31
  to grapple with what does that mean for me?
• 35:35
  Probably the most disturbing one was by the BTK guys,
• 35:40
  the buying torture killers daughter, Carrie.
• 35:45
  She liked her, she always was looking for dad's approval
• 35:49
  and saw good things in him
• 35:51
  and yet now realizes he's a monster.
• 35:54
  So that would be very hard to deal with.
• 35:57
  - Well, you see, yeah, that's gotta be different
• 35:59
  'cause you're seeing one thing and then suddenly you're shown.
• 36:02
  I mean, that's, you know, he always seemed
• 36:04
  like such a nice guy, as they always say, right?
• 36:06
  - Now you've written thrillers for,
• 36:08
  mysteries and thrillers for adults,
• 36:09
  but you mainly have written for teenagers
• 36:13
  and a younger audience.
• 36:14
  - I switched, yeah.
• 36:16
  I wrote a book with it that had to have a teen
• 36:19
  as a main character inspired by these real overseas bootcamps
• 36:24
  that kids were being sent to that were a scam basically
• 36:27
  and were horrible to the teens.
• 36:29
  It was just such an interesting story.
• 36:31
  And I thought, well, there are adult books
• 36:34
  main characters. And my agent said, "No, this is a young adult book." And she repped a lot of them,
• 36:40
  and that's how it's sold. And then I like writing for teenagers because if you can hook a kid and
• 36:46
  make them want to read, then you can change their life. I hear from a teenager a day, probably on
• 36:52
  TikTok saying, "You're the reason I'm a reader." So I kind of feel like I'm a surgeon or something,
• 36:58
  you know, like I fixed something in somebody. It's very similar to what Roald Dahl had for you,
• 37:03
  Like the fact that you can respond back to them, I think that's it's and this is a really great world
• 37:07
  We live in where you actually have authors who can respond. Yes, I actually still keep in touch
• 37:13
  With there are a lot of the teens that I hear from hopefully this isn't true for all teens
• 37:18
  But they're looking for an escape. They are living in a really bad situation
• 37:23
  They're like in foster care or they're hiding the bottles of alcohol from their alcoholic mom or something
• 37:30
  So, and there's some that I have kept in touch with for years, like they're in their 20s now.
• 37:36
  And now let's hear from this episode's sponsor.
• 37:39
  Hi everyone, I'm Jamie Davis, show manager for Author Nation.
• 37:42
  I'm back with another fun dad joke for you.
• 37:45
  And don't forget to come to the conference and get one from me in person.
• 37:49
  So why are math textbooks always the saddest books in the school?
• 37:54
  Well, they're the ones with the most problems.
• 37:58
  What is the shift from when you're writing to adults,
• 38:02
  where for adults, where anything goes,
• 38:05
  are there certain key elements
• 38:06
  when you're gonna put out a book
• 38:08
  and you know it's gonna be 12 years of age and up?
• 38:11
  - Well, you know, there's kind of different ways
• 38:13
  of approaching it.
• 38:14
  Like people who don't worry about being in schools
• 38:17
  can probably do whatever they want.
• 38:19
  Like I had a friend whose book was a paperback original,
• 38:22
  so that means more like the teens are buying it
• 38:25
  rather than a hardcover,
• 38:26
  which is pretty much librarians and parents or whatever.
• 38:29
  She had a lot of F-bombs and I was like,
• 38:31
  "Maybe you want to cut those back."
• 38:32
  But she didn't and it sold really well as a paperback.
• 38:35
  But I had written some books for a Christian imprint
• 38:41
  that Thomas Nelson, which is part of Harper Collins.
• 38:43
  So they have one set of books
• 38:45
  where they're all about Christianity
• 38:46
  and another set that are just like normal books,
• 38:48
  only nobody swears or has sex.
• 38:51
  So that taught me that you could do a lot
• 38:55
  just by relying on your reader to fill in the blanks.
• 38:58
  If you say the man swore in her ear,
• 39:02
  then they are gonna fill that blank in
• 39:04
  with whatever works for them.
• 39:06
  And if you're 12 or 18 or 24,
• 39:08
  you're gonna maybe use different words.
• 39:11
  The same with violence,
• 39:12
  you can just talk about how somebody is horrified
• 39:16
  by what happened, but you don't have to say,
• 39:17
  it's kind of like the monsters and stranger things.
• 39:21
  I felt like they were way more scary
• 39:23
  until I could see them.
• 39:24
  And once I could see them, I'm like, oh, it's kind of like alien mixed with a
• 39:29
  pterodactyl or something.
• 39:30
  And they just weren't as impactful when it was my scared imagination filling it in.
• 39:35
  There is a term in YA called clean teen.
• 39:38
  And I don't like that term.
• 39:39
  It kind of implies everything else is dirty teen or something.
• 39:42
  So, but I am mostly leaving things up to readers' imagination.
• 39:47
  I remember years ago when I was on live journal, like probably 20 years ago,
• 39:52
  There was a librarian who lost her job over, I think it was like F words in a
• 39:57
  book, like that she just ended up, she's like, I'm drinking wine in my
• 40:00
  parents' basement and I lost my job.
• 40:02
  And I thought, well, I don't ever want a librarian to lose their job for it.
• 40:07
  That's not the F word is not an important reason.
• 40:10
  You know what I mean?
• 40:11
  There's, right.
• 40:12
  Yeah.
• 40:12
  There's plenty of other things to stand up for besides the F word, but I mean,
• 40:16
  it is a slippery slope.
• 40:18
  Yeah.
• 40:18
  So I thought I just, I guess I haven't, I've had a few challenges, but mostly it's been people
• 40:25
  who haven't even read the book. Sometimes you will get pushed back. And this scares me is,
• 40:31
  like if you have a gay character, I've had librarians say I can't have a book with a gay
• 40:35
  character. Isn't that sad? That's so sad. And libraries. Oh my God. It is very sad. And then
• 40:41
  you, I feel like the ones you hear from are, there's probably a whole bunch more that are looking at
• 40:47
  They're going to buy one of these two books and one has a game in character and one doesn't and they're going to buy the one that doesn't
• 40:54
  And they're never going to tell anyone that's like called soft censorship. I worry about soft censorship
• 40:59
  I mean, there is a pushback now to the mom's for liberties mom's for liberty movement, but
• 41:05
  It's still as scary how much it feels like
• 41:08
  Think the clock has turned back on a lot of things like oh my gosh. Yeah the books that are getting challenged usually deal with race or
• 41:16
  gender. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going all going the wrong way. It's going to be it's going to cost
• 41:22
  backlash for a while, I think. Okay, so you won awards for writing for reluctant readers. I need
• 41:29
  to understand this term because if they're reluctant, how do you get them read in the first place?
• 41:34
  Basically, you hold them down. That's what the dish knowledge, you tie them up.
• 41:38
  I wrote 12 books for adults. I wrote that book that was for teens called Shock Point. The first
• 41:44
  review from Kirkus, you know, that means sometimes it was like something of a pot boiler but might
• 41:50
  appeal to reluctant readers. And the next review from School Library Journal is much nicer,
• 41:54
  but also said reluctant readers. And I thought, how weird they're both using the same unusual term
• 41:59
  that no one knows. But what I didn't realize was adults who don't like to read, they don't read.
• 42:05
  Teens who don't like to read are forced to read some by school. So they're--
• 42:09
  Right. And parents sometimes, yeah.
• 42:11
  Yes, but they're looking for books that are not as long like some of the Harry Potter's
• 42:17
  are like, you know, 600 pages.
• 42:19
  Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:21
  Intimidating to a kid who doesn't like to read.
• 42:23
  They're looking for something exciting on the first chapter.
• 42:27
  They're looking for short chapters, cliffhangers.
• 42:29
  But then once they started trying to write for that group, I realized we all like that
• 42:34
  stuff.
• 42:34
  If I'm reading a book and I page ahead and it's 50 more pages till the end of the chapter,
• 42:39
  I'm just going to go to bed.
• 42:40
  But if it's three pages and then when I get there,
• 42:43
  it ends on a cliffhanger, I'm going to keep reading.
• 42:45
  So I'm trying to grab those kids
• 42:48
  and make them realize that reading is fun.
• 42:51
  - That's awesome.
• 42:51
  I like short chapters for that same reason.
• 42:53
  So I want people to be kind of--
• 42:54
  - Yeah, it's like potato chips.
• 42:56
  You just keep eating and eating.
• 42:58
  - All right, this has been absolutely fantastic.
• 43:01
  We have a couple more questions that we ask everyone.
• 43:05
  The first is, what do you consider
• 43:06
  to be your author's superpower?
• 43:08
  It would probably be research that would be my spot.
• 43:11
  - I was gonna say, she sounds more like Batman
• 43:14
  because she's got all the training now.
• 43:16
  And so like--
• 43:17
  - That's true.
• 43:18
  I was thinking Kung Fu might be her strength,
• 43:20
  but that's not really a writing strength.
• 43:21
  It's a defense strength, but brilliant.
• 43:25
  Good, good, good.
• 43:26
  Okay, so we have a wheel of questions.
• 43:29
  - Random questions, so prepare yourself.
• 43:34
  I get the sound effect and everything.
• 43:37
  Oh, no, it's just 'cause I don't have the mic.
• 43:38
  - Yeah, I was gonna say, the clicking's gone.
• 43:40
  - All right, what is your ideal night out?
• 43:43
  Do you like dress up fancy restaurants
• 43:45
  or shorts in a beach bar or a movie, drive in?
• 43:49
  - Find us gonna combine things.
• 43:51
  It would probably be a nice meal
• 43:53
  and then go into listen to live music.
• 43:56
  So we have some live music stuff coming up
• 44:00
  that I'm already excited about.
• 44:02
  And but usually we only do one of those two things.
• 44:05
  We have pizza and go to music
• 44:08
  We have a nice dinner out and we come home.
• 44:10
  But if I could combine the two, I think it would be perfect.
• 44:13
  - Oh, that's fair.
• 44:14
  All right, Nick, what about you?
• 44:16
  What's your ideal?
• 44:16
  I know your ideal, but what does the rest of the world
• 44:18
  know what your ideal might be?
• 44:20
  (laughs)
• 44:21
  - Short, I'm short on a beach bar all the way.
• 44:23
  Hopefully just come out of the water from diving
• 44:26
  and sit by the side.
• 44:29
  - Yeah, I love that you're,
• 44:30
  and I know your wife and she's lovely,
• 44:32
  but I love that your ideal date with her
• 44:34
  is a go under water where you can't talk to each other.
• 44:37
  (laughs)
• 44:38
  - Yeah, well, she'd be the first one to say.
• 44:41
  - That's all right.
• 44:42
  - My wife is like, oh yes, I don't wanna hear him
• 44:44
  from him, so. (laughing)
• 44:45
  I would say, I gotta agree with April.
• 44:47
  I like the idea, I do of course love a beach bar,
• 44:49
  but live music and something casual is always,
• 44:53
  it's always fun to go.
• 44:54
  So if you could combine a beach bar and live music,
• 44:56
  then I'm in heaven.
• 44:57
  - Oh, that would be great. - Yeah, that's pretty cool.
• 44:58
  - Yeah, that's pretty cool.
• 44:59
  - Even a really good cover band.
• 45:01
  - Oh yeah, I mean, I wanna know the songs
• 45:03
  'cause I love to sing along to, you know,
• 45:07
  Guns N' Roses played by an overweight guy.
• 45:11
  - And you wanna hear Doug sing.
• 45:13
  - Okay, I'll take care of it.
• 45:14
  - If you wanna be put off music for the rest of your life,
• 45:16
  hear Doug sing.
• 45:17
  - I'd be happy to, yes.
• 45:19
  - April, thank you so much for joining us.
• 45:21
  This has been truly a pleasure
• 45:23
  and thanks for sharing all your historical secrets with us.
• 45:28
  We really appreciate it and all the best.
• 45:29
  Now when this airs in the blood,
• 45:31
  I'm sure we'll have already topped the charts.
• 45:34
  - All right, thank you.
• 45:35
  (upbeat music)
• 45:42
  - Thank you so much, April.
• 45:43
  What a lovely lady.
• 45:44
  - She was very lovely.
• 45:45
  Makes me feel like I'm not doing enough to research though.
• 45:47
  I tell you what.
• 45:48
  - Oh my gosh.
• 45:49
  - Well, I'm gonna see if I,
• 45:51
  I think you gotta worry if I let Ashley tie me up,
• 45:53
  she'd just leave me there for a while.
• 45:55
  - I think that's almost guaranteed.
• 45:58
  - No, I know Cheryl would.
• 45:59
  So she'd leave you in a heartbeat.
• 46:01
  - Oh, she'd think it was just hilarious.
• 46:02
  Yeah.
• 46:03
  - They'd probably both go,
• 46:04
  We'll do this, but we're gonna gag you at the same time.
• 46:06
  - Exactly, yeah, yeah.
• 46:08
  Like just give me sippy cup with some rum in it
• 46:10
  and then leave. - Sippy cup.
• 46:12
  - The genealogy, I mean, and there was some stuff
• 46:15
  I know from her bio and that, and she mentioned
• 46:19
  all of these grandfathers and great-grandfathers
• 46:20
  with this stuff, I know there's a witch in her,
• 46:24
  back in her genealogy somewhere.
• 46:26
  Isn't that amazing?
• 46:28
  - I do, I do, I mean, I have done a little bit of genealogy
• 46:30
  and I enjoy it, but it can, talk about a rabbit hole.
• 46:34
  I could spend like she says, been a year doing it.
• 46:36
  Like you start doing it and you're like,
• 46:37
  oh, it's so much like a little mystery you guys solve.
• 46:42
  So yeah, it's fascinating.
• 46:43
  I think it's kind of neat.
• 46:45
  Oh, you ever done much of your genealogy?
• 46:46
  Did anybody know who you are?
• 46:49
  I mean, I know a lot of people call you a son of a bitch,
• 46:51
  but that's just how you do your genealogy.
• 46:53
  - Don't talk about my mom like that.
• 46:54
  She loves your book. - No, I love your mom.
• 46:55
  I love your mom.
• 46:57
  - Dig it out, Doug.
• 46:58
  - I don't know how she went wrong with you,
• 47:00
  but I know what I think.
• 47:03
  (laughing)
• 47:03
  She's going to explain how I was adopted.
• 47:05
  All right, so yes, I've had a couple of periods of time
• 47:12
  where I've looked a little bit back.
• 47:14
  It really got back as far as the early 1900s, World War I,
• 47:20
  what would be a great grandfather of mine,
• 47:21
  I believe, was in World War I.
• 47:23
  He was actually mustard gas.
• 47:25
  He was blinded by mustard gas and the trenches and stuff
• 47:28
  like that.
• 47:29
  Yeah, so pretty interesting.
• 47:30
  But I've never hired a server, so gone back
• 47:33
  than that. But it's something that's fascinated me. I'd love to do and I just never got around
• 47:38
  to seriously attacking it, you know?
• 47:40
  Yeah, no. It's a lot easier than it used to be. I used to be able to go, like, wade
• 47:44
  through all these, like, microfilm. And now Ancestry.com does half of it for you. But
• 47:49
  it's still pretty impressive. I don't know. And I think it's neat that she's done this
• 47:53
  and taken it and used it as, like, she's done all this research. She now knows how to do
• 47:57
  it. So then putting that into the book makes it really great, like, a good way to do that.
• 48:03
  Oh, it's very enjoyable. Yeah. Also, I'm gonna try to get myself tied up and see how that works.
• 48:10
  Can't wait to see you next. I'll do it. All right. Thank you for your support on Patreon
• 48:17
  to all the folks that go over there. We just recorded a bonus with
• 48:22
  April that'll drop in there when this goes live. Yeah, yeah, it's a great one. Great one. So thank you.
• 48:28
  If you feel you get value for the show, dive over there to patreon.com. Look up the two
• 48:32
  to the Two Auths podcast and support us over there.
• 48:35
  Huge thank you to our wonderful friends at Vellum
• 48:38
  for all they do for the industry.
• 48:40
  - And fabulous, Brad.
• 48:41
  - And for us and for sticking around
• 48:43
  after the jingle we made for them.
• 48:45
  And go to trivallum.com/twoauthors.
• 48:49
  - We're recording it before they heard it yet, so they may.
• 48:52
  (both laughing)
• 48:54
  Too late, you're with us.
• 48:55
  - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 48:56
  You'll find links as always in our show notes.
• 48:59
  Check them out.
• 49:00
  We'll be back with a new episode of the Two Auths podcast next week.
• 49:03
  Until next time, be cool to each other.
• 49:06
  And fair winds and following seas.
• 49:08
  You've been listening to the Two Auths podcast with Nicholas Harvey and Douglas Pratt.
• 49:14
  Subscribe on your favorite platform for new shows coming every week.
• 49:18
  (upbeat music)