Latest / The Yield Doctor with James Deaker / Peter Naylor Maximizing Video Advertising

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Peter Naylor Maximizing Video Advertising · The Yield Doctor with James Deaker

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  my guest today is Peter nayor and we're
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  going to be diving deep into the world
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  of video and CTV advertising challenges
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  and
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  opportunities I first met Peter almost
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  20 years ago when I was first starting
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  out in digital media and I was a small
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  company called wrapped Peter was the
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  head of sales at a company called I
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  Village that focused on content for
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  women and he was my client and since
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  then Peter has gone on to build a career
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  as one of the true leaders in the
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  digital advertising space he has led
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  sales organizations at Netflix snap Hulu
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  and
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  nbcu he is a former chair of the
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  interactive advertising Bureau Peter I
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  am so glad that you're able to join me
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  today to talk digital advertising um so
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  happy to be here with the yield doctor
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  himself uh those introductions always
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  make me a little uncomfortable so I'm
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  just glad to catch up with you after so
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  long and we can talk about the video
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  market and see where it goes excellent
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  and you and I caught up in person last
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  week for the first time in many years
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  and it's uh it's always good to
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  reconnect with P I think I've talked
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  about in previous episodes that I love
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  catching up with people I haven't caught
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  up with in a long time and you're a top
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  of that list so thank you well it was
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  fun walking around that conference with
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  you because I was introducing James as
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  the the yield doctor and it was real
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  conversation starter so you know it's
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  good fun good fun it is good fun soy
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  let's talk about some of the definitions
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  around video because this is a confusing
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  space for a lot of people and a lot of
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  the lingo can have lots of different
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  meanings there are some formats of ads
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  that run on TV or in TV like experiences
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  or you might refer to as connected TV
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  like Hulu or Netflix there are some ads
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  and some that run on devices like PCS
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  where you might run against an ad on
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  something like YouTube maybe it's full
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  screen maybe it's on your phone or
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  tablet maybe it's in a smaller window
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  and then there are there are video ads
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  that are running in traditional display
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  uh type environments that some would say
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  aren't even video ads that maybe it's
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  just a form of rich media and and now
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  increasingly we see video ads running on
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  outdoor Billboards and TV screens and
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  hotels and and on air planes that would
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  be classified as digital out of home so
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  when you think about all these different
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  digital advertising experiences what
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  language do you use to to define those
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  different experiences well I speak
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  through the a lens of a
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  sales side of the of the street right so
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  keep that in mind I'm not speaking to
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  the buyer lens or talking or looking
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  through a buyer lens I mean as a
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  seller uh particularly my experience at
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  Hulu and then again at Netflix you know
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  we were going after TV budgets because
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  streaming TV or Ott or streaming really
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  does look a lot like broadcast and cable
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  linear um you're talking full screen ads
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  nestled within long form content that's
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  typically professionally published um
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  what's attractive about both
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  conventional and streaming TV is that
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  you know it's continuous play it's sound
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  on it's full screen and Those ads are
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  typically viewed to completion uh so
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  it's really the most valuable form of
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  video in my opinion um now all TV is
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  video but not all videoos TV I mean when
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  you consider all the vertical
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  opportunities whether it's Tik Tock um
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  uh real s uh YouTube shorts snap
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  Spotlight and then you consider YouTube
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  I mean that is all video sites s and
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  motion ads sit s and motion
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  storytelling but um then all of a sudden
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  a lot of variables come into play is it
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  full screen is it audio on is it
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  skippable um what's the length of the ad
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  so I think the buy side has uh their
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  work cut out them when they're trying to
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  compare app app to Apples because you
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  just can't say oh a video CPM is a video
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  CPM is a video CPM it's like it really
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  depends on the environment I mean you
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  also talked about video ads in a browser
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  environment I mean personally when I go
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  and land on a website and there's just a
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  video ad that's completely contextually
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  IR IR running irrespective of the
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  content it's just kind of anchored to
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  the the bottom corner of your browser it
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  may or may not have audio you exit out I
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  mean I understand why a publisher might
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  be uh deploying Those ads I think the
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  buyer has to be careful to make sure
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  they're giving that the proper weight
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  and value because that out of stream I
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  would call that out of stream it's not
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  instream it's not pre-roll in order for
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  something to be pre-roll there's got to
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  be a roll you know what I mean um so I
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  think that's questionable valuable and
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  and then um your last one out of home
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  digital out of home whether you know
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  you're seeing it in you're seeing things
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  in like an elevator or a Subway or um
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  gas stations or or shopping environments
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  whatever you know I admire that the out
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  of home world has figured out how to
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  enable these ads and in many cases make
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  them uh connected uh so I I I think out
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  of home is a very powerful medium but
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  again it's it's up to the buyer to make
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  sure they're putting the proper waiting
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  on those ads since you know
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  conceivably anybody with a pulse any
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  carbon based life form can encounter it
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  so targeting becomes more Geographic and
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  things like that so there's there's a a
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  big world of video options out there and
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  and again I you know I've always said
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  I've always encountered buyer sorry if
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  I'm running on do you want to like no no
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  I push you on one thing because I didn't
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  I expected you to start with INR is more
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  valuable than out of roll how should you
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  I mean and and again when you have your
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  sales hat on that's not a surprising
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  position to take given some of the
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  companies you you've represented but how
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  can someone think about the relative
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  value is it a little bit is it a lot is
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  it a completely different experience if
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  I'm a buyer trying to think about the
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  value of enroll versus Out roll how how
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  do you even think about that I just
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  think enroll is more uh valuable because
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  of attention you know when you're
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  engrossed in content and there's a
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  commercial Interruption where it's
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  supposed to be where it's you know the
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  Storyteller has made a commercial break
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  it's not totally interruptive when you
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  theoretically are watching Lum for
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  content and you're giving that your
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  attention that ad is more likely to get
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  more of your attention and if it's done
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  with uh the right data the right
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  targeting right context then it's more
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  favorable attention again I think out of
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  rle has uh increased likelihood to be um
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  a little bit more annoying now it might
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  get attention but remember there's
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  positive attention and negative
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  attention there's positive sentiment
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  negative sentiment and um and I I um
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  ever since I was very very early at Hulu
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  back in the 201s I just said streaming
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  and T back then it was called Ott um
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  said Ott and TV are more or less the
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  same because um of all the the mechanics
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  full screen audio on Etc then I would
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  argue streaming is
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  actually um the King of the Hill because
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  it's on demand as opposed to passively
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  being pushed out it's addressable it's
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  one to one as opposed to one to many
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  theoretically and increasingly it's a
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  younger audience that's growing as
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  opposed to Conventional TV which is
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  still big awesome audience but it's
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  aging and Contracting so I I do stack
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  rank it at the top so as you know I'm
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  very interested in what
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  advertises um value as a proxy for what
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  the price should be on some of these ads
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  and I've previously created videos to
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  talk about all the different attributes
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  that a buyer might consider in digital
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  and and you know whether they're linked
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  to price and it's an overwhelmingly long
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  list of includes the size of the ad the
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  environment that's showing and the
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  audience it's showing to the targeting
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  Dimensions the frequency C I could go on
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  and on um I I guess I'd like to hear
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  from you what are the top two or three
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  things that you think that buyers are
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  looking for in a digital video campaign
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  and and I'm going to take one that
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  you've already talked about which is the
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  attention particularly whether it's it's
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  in the Stream or out of the stream but
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  what are the other top couple of things
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  that you think buyers really care about
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  yeah I mean there's media math right and
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  you talked about a lot of the meting
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  math so I think um each buyer or each
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  agency might have their own math with
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  some commonalities Again full screen
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  duration clutter is a big one like am I
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  in a ad pod with for other Advertiser or
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  am I one of one that has a lot to do
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  with attention and value um increasingly
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  I think the word of the last couple
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  years is outcomes you know buyers want
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  outcomes they want
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  measurability um I think short-termism
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  continues to be ever presentent and
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  anytime you can show how the video ad
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  can lead to some form of measurement
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  buyers are going to value that you look
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  at a company like Edo for example Kevin
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  crem is the CEO of this video company
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  called Edo where they're measuring site
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  visitation and search activity
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  like if you're a video seller you would
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  consider a company like that and there's
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  many others um so I would say outcomes
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  is a big deal um
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  increasingly um brand safety and brand
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  suitability you know for a couple years
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  has been a big deal brand safety is one
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  thing you know you may or may not want
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  to be next to war um there's a lot of
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  people who shy away from news and news
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  organizations are saying whoa whoa whoa
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  all news isn't War like news is
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  lifestyle entertainment weather um
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  health and
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  lifestyle um so there's all sorts of
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  arguments about what is brand safe and
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  then again there's brand suitability so
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  there's safety and suitability so you
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  might say that oh these uh shows that
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  have to do with you know big dramas they
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  might be brand safe but you know for a
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  brand like Pampers is a big drama
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  suitable and I just making these
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  examples up so brand safety brand
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  suitability is next on my list there and
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  then um I guess with the increasingly
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  complex landscape of privacy I'm feeling
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  there's um the pendulum swinging back to
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  a little bit more acceptance of context
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  as a way to uh really
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  value video and context contributes to
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  Brand safety and brand suitability and
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  going right back to where I started on
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  this outcomes because if you have the
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  right ey in the right place at the right
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  time I.E context then you know the
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  outcomes probably uh Trend up as well so
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  those are some of the things that I
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  think about for that buyers
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  consider let's talk about the outcomes
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  then because um 20 let's rewind 20 years
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  where there was much more focus on
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  broadcast TV and the ability to measure
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  those outcomes was was essentially zero
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  you had audience measurement through you
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  know neelson and other panels you had
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  potentially companies like comcore who
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  are also more focused on audience we
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  should be in an environment now where
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  it's easier to measure the the outcomes
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  do you feel like the industry has
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  matured enough that it's really there or
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  is this still coming uh I think it's
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  gonna get increasingly better um and
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  here we are how how deep are we into the
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  uh conversation here's the first mention
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  of AI okay like AI will make things
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  better but you know 20 years ago they
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  did have outcomes and the outcomes were
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  if I buy x00 gross rating points I sell
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  more product and they may not know
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  directly how that magic happened other
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  than gross rating points on television
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  moved that much more percentage off the
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  shelves or that many more seats sold or
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  that many more cars off the lot or
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  whatever and that's why TV's always been
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  um coveted because you make the
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  investment you know it's going to work
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  the funniest thing that ever happened to
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  me was I was um on a sales call with the
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  good folks of Tyson chicken I don't know
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  if they're going to be happy if I'm
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  telling the story or not but when I was
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  calling on Tyson chicken they said are
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  you confident that this campaign's going
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  to run in full on time as we're disc
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  discussing and I said yeah sure it's
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  like because it's really important
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  because we put our order in for the
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  slaughter of the chickens based on the
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  media bu it's like wow you know I never
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  knew that media was life and death but
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  it was life and death to the chickens so
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  like we can't kill all the chickens if
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  you're not going to create demand they
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  knew getting back to your question they
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  knew that when they advertised they're
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  going to sell more chicken and so they
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  made the appropriate decisions about how
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  many chickens to kill so it works
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  advertising works and it gets
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  increasingly more measurable As Time
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  Marches on that is a brutal story but it
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  is a nice bridge to my my next
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  question you've worked with the
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  traditional TV buyers who have moved
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  over to digital when when some of those
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  traditional buyers who have been buying
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  TV for decades in some cases start to
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  buy digital what what are the thing one
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  thing or many things that they either
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  get wrong or get most frustrated about
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  when they move over to digital yeah I
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  don't know if there's anything they're
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  getting particularly wrong I think they
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  get frustrated that you know we're just
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  living in an increasingly complex world
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  and that's a fact of life and I don't
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  see it getting easier anytime soon I
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  think they get frustrated because it
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  used to be buy ABC NBC Fox C BS handful
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  of cable networks and again you'd know
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  that when you make that that buy you'd
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  sell product so the complexity of data
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  targeting measurability tags is
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  frustrating um the other thing that you
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  know TV was is still coveted because of
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  its big reach you know 70 of the top 10
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  broadcasts last year were the NFL for
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  example which is why that's still
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  coveted but um that kind of
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  reach is not um the exclusive home of TV
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  you look at YouTube YouTube is massive
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  you look at Tik Tok Tik Tok has been
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  advertisers been dumping money into Tik
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  Tok so they have reach there but it's so
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  different than the reach of conventional
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  one to many TV and so they get
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  frustrated because it's it becomes clear
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  that wow in a an environment like Tik
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  Tok I have to have lots and lots and
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  lots and lots of creatives you know TV
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  they kind of run the same thing over and
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  over to reach their reach and frequency
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  goals in in some of these other
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  environments in
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  digitals video we'll just say all
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  digital video you know one of the
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  biggest
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  frustrations is um the lack of reach and
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  frequency control and that's either
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  because W Gardens don't want to
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  cooperate or even the open web
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  Publishers don't want to give everything
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  away but that lack of uh frequency
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  control I think is a big source of
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  frustration uh not only to buyers uh but
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  also to viewers of course um and then
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  the other thing probably and then I'll
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  stop is in TV there's so many major
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  advertisers who are um really interested
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  in knowing exactly where the ad run ran
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  it's like yeah I want to be in the NFL
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  and I know I'm going to be after the
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  second touchdown or I'll be in the third
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  quarter like I'm gonna run in this show
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  on on broadcast or whatever and that's
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  important especially when you realize
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  like if you're a quick service
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  restaurant and your funds your
• 17:40
  advertising funds are controlled by the
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  Affiliates or the um you know the own
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  the franchise owners those franchise
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  owners may or may not be as
• 17:50
  sophisticated as as everybody in our
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  business and they don't understand what
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  do you mean I don't know when or where
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  it ran like I I like to know I like to
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  watch the ball game and see it and it's
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  and so those those frustrations are ever
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  present I think okay all right this is
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  the the yield doctor podcast we have to
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  talk about value and uh in some sense
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  value aligns with pricing so so let's
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  get specific on on some advice that you
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  might have there there are lots of
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  potential tactics that creators or asset
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  owners can use to make more money off
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  their video assets they can vary the
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  length of the ads they can invest in
• 18:30
  Innovative formats they can move
• 18:33
  programmatic or the reverse they can
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  move fully handhold and and while I
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  acknowledge that there is no one- siiz
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  fits all if you were working with a
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  Content owner for the first time who had
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  a lot of video what are the first sort
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  of two or three things that you would
• 18:49
  work with them to think about to ensure
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  that they were maximizing the value of
• 18:54
  their assets uh it's a great question
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  and um I'll go with your prompt that
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  says they have a sizable amount of
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  inventory if you're lucky enough to have
• 19:05
  a sizable amount of inventory I think
• 19:07
  you have to you know be prepared to be
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  both in the program programmatic as well
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  as direct sales business um programmatic
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  you can have pmps you can have um you
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  know programmatic guaranteed deals with
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  people uh you can have back uh um you
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  can have open exchange for just remant
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  inventory for backfill so programmatic
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  is an important part of the mix to
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  complement your direct sales mix I I
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  think people I mean we've been talking
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  about this a long time nobody knows this
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  more in the yield doctor but
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  programmatic is not automatic and I
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  think a lot of people think programmatic
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  is automatic I just plug it in and and
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  I'll just fill up my big sacks of money
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  that's not true so to have a direct
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  sales team I think is important again
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  considering if you have a a
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  sizable uh amount of inventory to go out
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  and create that demand to make sure
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  people understand who you are what the
• 20:09
  audience looks like what the environment
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  is the context everything we've been
• 20:12
  talking about so I think a a mix of
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  programmatic and direct sales is
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  important the other thing I would remind
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  them is uh this is an evergreen rule
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  buyers buy for their reasons not ours
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  right buyers buy for their reasons so
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  that that direct Salesforce really needs
• 20:31
  to go out there and listen to what each
• 20:34
  holding company each marketer values
• 20:37
  which is something we talked about
• 20:39
  earlier what are they valuing how are
• 20:42
  they measuring and then how can you with
• 20:45
  your kind of inventory whether it's B
• 20:47
  Toc B2B you know user generated
• 20:50
  professionally published whatever how do
• 20:52
  you fit in and then you segment your
• 20:55
  your sales um efforts uh accordingly and
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  then of course you need to be prepared
• 21:02
  to provide people those those
• 21:05
  measurements those outcomes those kind
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  of proof of performances that the the
• 21:11
  buyer or their
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  agencies care about and so you got to be
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  prepared to get in to the business of
• 21:17
  having relationships with a lot of
• 21:19
  adtech and measurement providers um and
• 21:23
  part of that of course is um being
• 21:26
  prepared to enhance your Beautiful video
• 21:29
  ads with data with targeting with
• 21:33
  context uh you know just enrich
• 21:36
  everything you're doing so there's a lot
• 21:39
  to it um programmatic direct
• 21:43
  sales data measurement and then you know
• 21:46
  from a seller the thing I can't advocate
• 21:49
  for enough is to listen listen to your
• 21:51
  customers because my experience is
• 21:53
  they'll tell you what they need in order
• 21:55
  to buy you and then it's up to you can
• 21:58
  you give them what they need or you know
• 22:01
  or or you going to segment and go
• 22:03
  somewhere else yeah uh the first part of
• 22:06
  what you said programmatic has not mean
• 22:08
  automatic resonates so much I spent a
• 22:10
  lot of my career educating my peers that
• 22:13
  as we move programmatic we actually
• 22:15
  needed more people focused on yield on
• 22:18
  the auctions on the private exchanges
• 22:20
  that were being set up on all the
• 22:21
  programmatic pipes that were breaking
• 22:23
  along the way because you think that oh
• 22:25
  you're getting away from a rate card
• 22:26
  based selling it should get easier it
• 22:29
  actually gets more complex as you're
• 22:31
  well aware yes Peter this has been so
• 22:34
  much fun I hope you and I will be seeing
• 22:36
  more of each other going forward here
• 22:37
  shortly is there any closing thoughts or
• 22:40
  anything you'd like to leave our
• 22:41
  audience with I guess uh the one thing
• 22:43
  it's kind of an evergreen thought is we
• 22:46
  talk about addressability and data and
• 22:48
  targeting and measurement don't forget
• 22:51
  the value of the
• 22:53
  creative right what goes into that
• 22:57
  rectangle that's a big big um a big big
• 23:02
  deal when it comes to Performance and
• 23:05
  everything so I think sometimes we lose
• 23:08
  a force for the trees so if you're a
• 23:10
  publisher and you have the ability to
• 23:11
  help your marketer with the the creative
• 23:15
  then go for it or if you have your
• 23:17
  ability to make it shoppable or or
• 23:20
  whatever don't forget that creative is a
• 23:22
  big variable of success thank you so
• 23:24
  much Peta have a good rest of your day
• 23:27
  my pleasure
• 23:28
  oh