Latest / Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries / #471: HERA's Martian Maneuvers, Black Hole Light Echoes & Ancient Healing Rays

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#471: HERA's Martian Maneuvers, Black Hole Light Echoes & Ancient Healing Rays · Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi there, thanks for joining us. This is Space Nuts.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: My name is Andrew Dunkley. Lovely to have your company again.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Coming up in this episode, we're going to look at
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: the Hero mission, which was launched not so long ago,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: but now they've reached some critical points in the mission,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: even though it won't reach its destination for quite some time,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: they've done some critical burns to get the thing moving
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: in a more expedient fashion. Let's say, we're also going
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: to look at black holes, well not specifically, but black
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: hole echoes and how they might be able to be
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: found using light. And speaking of light, this is a
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: really interesting story about the human history of using light
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: to treat people's ailments. That's all coming up on this
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: episode of Space.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Nuts fifteen in Channel ten nine.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: Ignition Space Nuts NI or three more Radio one spaces
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: and I reported Neils.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Good and here again see what I did there is
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Professor Fred. What's a hello?
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: Fred? Oh? You should be on radio?
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: You know there such good stuff that you do know.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: I think forty years on radio was enough. Although you
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: know what, I'd go back tomorrow if anyone asked, Suh,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: I tell Judy, I teld Judy, Well, I would get there.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: It's just good fun. I just I loved being on
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: the air and telling silly stories and got a big
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: kick out of breaking news if something big happened and
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: no one else knew about it.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I know that sounds pretty more because sometimes it wasn't
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: good news. But break breaking a story is as a
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: journalist is always a big Yeah, it makes you feel good.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I better qualify that, do's not always?
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: I know what you mean.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we have plenty. This is a really fascinating episode, Fred,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: because we're talking about, firstly the hero mission, but I'm
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: really interested in the two different stories about light and
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: because we know we couldn't do without light for many,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: many reasons. So we'll get into that. But the Here emission,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: we didn't really talk about it when it first started
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: because I mean, it started as a rocket launch and
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: what can you say, it launched. Okay, we got that done,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: But now Here has reached a critical point and they've
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: done a fairly significant burn to get it into an
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: accelerated approach to Mars where it will do a gravity
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: assist and then that'll pick it up even more. But
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I think they've got to do another burn before that
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: because they've got to adjust its course to get on target.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: We might start though, by talking about what the Hero
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: mission is all about. It's got two sort of objectives.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: One's a minor objective taking advantage of the of the
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Mars visit.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: Indeed, that's right, so it's in fact it will be
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: really interesting. And that that flyby that we're about to
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: talk about is March next year. It's not very far
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: down the track, so we've got a close approach to Mars.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: And it's a gravitationally assist that's why it's basically happening.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: But it comes, it will come within three hundred kilometers
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: of the surface of Demos, which is Mars's smaller moon.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: If I remember right, this is about fourteen kilometers across.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: It's a tiny world. And this will give us some
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: really good close up images of the surface of Demos,
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: which has been explored already by the you know, some
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: of the orbiters that are around Mars. But that is
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: here is going to give us another look and just
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: to tight the details. You've sort of mentioned this already,
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: but the fly But the reason why we're talking about
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: this and why it's sort of in the news is
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: because of this trajectory correction, so it's an eesumission. I
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: didn't mention that at the beginning. European Space Agency launched
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: the seventh of October, so very recently, but towards the
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: end of October, on the twenty third, as you said,
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: it underwent course correction, and the details are that it
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: fired all three of its orbital control thrusters for one
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: hundred minutes. That's how long we're earn It changed the
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: velocity by one hundred and forty six meters per second,
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: and then there was another one carried out just a
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: few days, few days ago, I'm not sure. Yes, from
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: where we are now, it's four days ago. It was
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: on the sixth of November. That lasted thirteen minutes and
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: put in an additional twenty meters per second. And now
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: we've got it absolutely on track for the gravity assist
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: at Mars in March twenty twenty five. So something to
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: look forward to that we will almost certainly talk about
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: next year.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, I'm just trying to look up what its
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: actual speed is total, but I'm having trouble finding it
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: a bit. It's going hellful leather.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: Let's just yes, yes, so there is a there's a
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: further burn coming up a little bit later this month,
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: Andrew on twenty first of November, which the mission scientists
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: say will be a few It will be another correction
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: of just a few tens of centimeters per second, so.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: It's less than a Yeah, it's.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: Just incredible what these guys can do. I read.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: I think that the telemetry that they're gathering so that
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: they can make the adjustments includes three locations on the
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: surface of the Earth, and one of those is in Australia.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: Is that right? Yes, that's right, said does have a
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: it's got a tracking station in Australia. I think it's
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: the new Nausea one. That might be wrong with that,
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: but there is an ISSA tracking station here. Now.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: You know, it's going to take a closer look at Demos,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: which is of great interest given that you know, it
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: could it could become crucial in terms of future visits
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: to Mars. It might, it might provide some kind of
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Is it the one that's going to actually fall back
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: into Mars at some stage in terms of the otherwise
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: that's Phobos.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Phobos is kind of spiraling slowly downwards towards the
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: surface of Mars. I think Demos is going the other way.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Actually right, oh okay, And is the thinking that they
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: used to be like they're captured asteroids.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, probably it's that there odd world's Phobos is it's
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: got the density of a piece of pummus. It's you know,
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: it's most probably fifty percent of it is empty space,
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: which is really interesting, so that Phobos will be an
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: interesting world to visit. And you might remember it's probably
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: now at least a decade ago, there was a mission
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: to Phobos which was launched by the Russian Space Agency
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: ross Cosmos. It was called Phobos Grunt and Grant was
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: the work ground because it was going to land on Phobos.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: But it didn't make it. The launch vehicle didn't give
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: it in a forbital velocity, and sadly it burned up
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: in the atmosphere, in the atmosphere, not marsers. So yes,
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: you're you're right, there's all that happening. And then there
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: is the mission. The mission's real you know, its real goal,
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: which is to go into orbit around Didimos, so it
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: will actually orbit it's target when it gets there. And
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: by the way, the target date, the date for orbit
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: insertion around Didimos is the fourteenth of December twenty twenty sixth.
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: That's my birthday, so that'll be a good meet to celebrate.
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: So and what you know, the questions that it will
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: will really be interested in are not so much to
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: do with Didimos the asteroid, but it's Moon Dimorphous, which is,
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: if I remember rightly, aboute hundred and seventy meters across,
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: and that's the one that the Dark Mission impacted in
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty two. So the questions that Hero will be
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: asking are things like did it leave a crater or
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: did it just sort of rebuild the whole asteroid because
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: we think Didimos is a rubble pile. Sorry, we think, well,
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: Didimos is probably a rubble pile as well, but we
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: think Dimorphois is a rubble pile, and a little bit
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: more about its internal structure, which you'd be able to
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: get from the details of the orbit that here finally
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: goes into. So I think it's going to be a
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: very interesting mission. That will be a really neat follow
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: up for the Dart mission, and we'll give us more
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: information again on you know, the relative all relevant stuff.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: If ever, we are under threat from an asteroid impact
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: because this knowledge that we really need.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, And the good news about this mission
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: is that it's not going to be that long down
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: the track. Some of the missions that are headed out
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: at the moment are just going to take so long.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: But this one, Yeah, we're looking at just a bit
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: over two years before we reach the destination, which in
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: astronomical terms is a pretty quick trip.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's my calculations are correct. It's less than two years.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Less than oh yeah, hang on a big time.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: I know you're right now, sorry, you're quite right. Yes,
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: it's a bit over two years, exactly, Sorry, I'm miscalculating
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: there and putting my March is where my December should be.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: And I believe I would think that Marie Claire, won
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: of our most dedicated listeners who went to NASA for
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: that particular impact event of the Dart mission, should be
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: pretty keen on what happens next. So yeah, and I've
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: got all my Dart memorabilia here, I've got my Dart
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: T shirt, my Dart stickers are over there, and thanks
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: to Mary Claire, and hello to you, thanks for your support,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: and yeah, it would be a pretty exciting mission for
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: all those involved, even those that were invited just to watch.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, terrific.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: So yeah, we will definitely be updating that when the
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: time comes. And if you want to read the story
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: about the course adjustment and the mission, the Hero mission,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: it's at the fizz dot org website. Phys Now you're
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: with Andrew Duncle and Fred Watson. This is space Nuts.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Space Nuts. Now.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: We've got a couple of light stories.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: They're either light stories or light stories, depending on which
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: way you want to look at it. This first story,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Fred brings us back to our old favorite topic black holes.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: But I found this story interesting because it really explains
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: well how light is affected by gravity, particularly the gravitational
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: effect of black holes in space, and how we can
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: witness events more than once because of this. We've talked
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: about that before and they refer to them as light echoes.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Do they not?
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: Y if they do? And later light echoes are sort
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: of a broad topic. In astronomy, we've got a situation
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: where because of the finite speed of light, you can
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: sometimes see the same event twice. Perhaps the classic one
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: is and the one that's easiest to get your head around.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: If you have a super and over explosion, a star
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: explodes and you get the direct beam of light that
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: comes to us that tells the story of the explosion.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: But sometimes you get reflections off dust clouds, which is
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: quite often a long way away from the super and
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: over explosion, so that the light takes a dog leg
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: path and eventually we see it again. And that's actually
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: one of the ways why we can see sometimes see
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: super and Ova, which exploded in historic historical times. The
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: one that I like is Kepler super and Ova, which
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: took place in sixteen hundred and four, and we can
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: still see it because of a light echo. So you
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: can analyze body equipment to analyze the lights. This is
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: something a little bit different. I'm going to pour from
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: min Andrew because there's a gentleman with a what I
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: would call a strummer and you'd call something else, is
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: doing the grass out the back of our house. Are
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: you getting any noise interference there? Just a little bit.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: It's not too bad. Okay, I'll keep going, then I
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: keep doing so. With the black hole story, it's not
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: about reflections from dust clouds. It's about refraction, about the
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: light being bent by gravity around the black hole. So
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: the intense gravitational field of a black hole pull's light
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: around it. And you know it will either deflect it
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: slightly or depending on where the light is emitted, or
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: it can be something that goes all the way round,
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: and in fact, you can go all the way round
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: more than once. And so the paper that we're talking about,
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: which is I'm looking at the original paper here in
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: Astrophysical Journal Letters, is called Measuring black Hole Light Echoes
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: with very long Baseline into Ferometry, and it's by a
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: group of scientists who are all in the US at
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: institutions with very very prestigious names, like the Institute for
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: Advanced Study in Princeton, which I think was where Einstein worked,
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, all
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: of these places, and so this is something you know,
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: it's work of a very high quality. What these authors
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: are suggesting is that if you have so think of
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: a black hole around it, it's got the accretion disc,
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: the disc of material that is swirling around the black hole,
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: some of which is actually going to disappear inside it,
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: and some of it will be squirted upwards along the
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: relativistic jets. Think of that accretion disc that's got stuff
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: in it that's swirling to together, and you know just
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: basically the energies that are involved as such that you
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: get X rays and radio waves coming from that accretion disc. Now,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: if you imagine, you know, a particularly big lump of
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: something in there, that it's another particularly big lump in
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: that disc, you're going to get a flash, basically, an
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: explosive event, which will release radiation. And the point that
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: these authors make is that that radiation, yes, may take
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: a direct path towards the Earth, but it could also
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: go around the black hole, and it could go around
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: multiple times. So you might get an explosion that we
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: see and then a number of light echoes that follow
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: it at sort of pretty regular intervals as the light
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: travels around the black hole. And so what they've suggested
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: is that if you can analyze that and look at
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: it in detail with radio telescopes we're talking about here,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: because that's the wavebandits of interest in this, then that
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: might tell you something about the details of the accretion
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: disc and the events that are taking place inside it.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: If you could see, you know, whereabouts these light echoes
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: seem to come from, and things of that sort. And
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: what they're suggesting is that you could do it with
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: this technique called very long baseline interferometry or VLBI, which
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: is beloved of radio astronomers. And what you do is
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: you have dishes separate, separated by large distances, and you
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: can sort of correlate the signals that each gets because
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: they're slightly different, you know, because of the separation of them,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: and that lets you essentially see very very fine details.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: It's actually how the event horizon telescope works, the thing
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: that has indeed mapped the event horizon of several super
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: massive black holes. So so the bottom line is you
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: can't actually do it with very long baseline into geometry
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: on Earth. You need to put one of your one
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: of your You can do it with one telescope on Earth,
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: but you need to put one of them in orbit
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: around around the Earth, or at least into space. You
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: need the distances that you know that you get from
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: putting putting the antennas that are going to provide the baseline.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: You need to put them very very far apart. And
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: so it's the paper that suggests how you might do that.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: I've just got the abstract from the paper in front
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: of me. What they say is our results suggest that
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: detecting echoes may be achievable through interferometric observations with a
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: modest space based, very long baseline into ferrometory mission. The
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: modest is a word that you can put numbers on,
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: and I think the numbers are later in the article.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: Haven't actually read the paper itself, but in the abstract
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: they certainly talk about the kinds of the kinds of
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: effects that you might see and what you might need
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: to build in order to do that. Now, interferometer is
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: interferometers in space and not a new suggestion.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: So it may well some of our audience have suggested it.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: They have, indeed, that's right, they have. Indeed, so we
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: might we might find that this is something that almost
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: that the the you know, the hardware already exists because
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: there are radio telescopes in space already. But anyway they're suggesting,
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: they're not they're not really going into detail of how
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: you might do it, but they're suggesting that it will
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: in fact be possible.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we are not there yet, but they've certainly
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: looked at ways that they might be able to do
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: this by through publishing this paper. They've they've gone public
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: on it.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: That's exactly right. Yeah, what they've what they concentrate on
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: in the detail in the paper is the details of this,
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: you know, this multiple apparition of flashes of light and
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: the actual how how the gravity of the black hole
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: actually steers the light around, and just the details of
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: what the black hole might do to the to the
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: light and by light, I'm talking really here about radio radiation, uh,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: and suggesting that you might need bigger tackle than we've
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: got already in order to in order to measure it.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. What fascinated me in the story is how you
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: talk about an event collision that creates a flash, and
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: that light comes straight towards us, and we see that event,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: But the light can also be disrupted by the gravity
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: of the black hole and do a few laps around
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: the black hole before it gets headed in our direction.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: So what sort of a time difference would it make
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: between us seeing the real event and then the echo.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: Well, they'd be very small, wouldn't they dis going to
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: depend on the size of the black hole. You know,
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: some I think they're talking about super massive black holes,
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: And in fact the article talks about we explore the
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: viability of our method using I love this using numerical
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: general relativistic magneto hydrodynamic simulations. There you are of a
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: near face on decretion system scale to M eighty seven
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: like Parameises et seven being the galaxy of which we've
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: imaged the super massive black hole center. And so you're
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: talking there about an event horizon that is solar system
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: sized or much bigger than the solar system. So you're
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: talking about possibly hours to days of delay in the efforts.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Still, that's a short time frame in terms of being
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: able to collect data. So that's you know, it makes
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: it even more Gee, they're doing a good job in
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: your backyard.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: By the end, I'm wondering what I'm going to have
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: to move for Andrew to find quite a place to
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: do this. So let's let's let's move house and we'll
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: keep going. We'll keep talking, but I'm going to take
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: you with me and I quiet a part perhaps to
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: do this.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: This doesn't happen often, but that's.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: All about Yeah, that's right. I'm going to wander around
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: this way because I think it will be quiet right
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: at the other end of the house.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Right, just depends whether or not you lose your your
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Wi Fi connection in the process.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: Should hopefully, hopefully it should be all right. So I mean,
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: I'm knowing Marni's study with Currently we're taking service as
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: a bedroom because we've got lots of visitors coming.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: So here we are, Oh very nice, oh nice view,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: beautiful mm hmm, excellent, Ah, very.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Good, Thailand, complete silent until they come around the corner
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: and do that bit that. Yes, but I think we've
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: pretty well wrapped up that story. So if you are
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: interested in reading it, it's in Universe today dot com,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: or you can read the whole thing Measuring black hole
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: light echoes with very long baseline interferometry in the Astrophysical
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Journal Letters. This is space nuts Andrew Dunkley with Professor
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Fred Watson piece nuts. Finally, Fred, we continue our look
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: at light, but this is light of a very different ilk,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: I suppose you could say, because it looks at the
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: relationship between light and humans and how even since ancient
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: times we've used light for medical purposes, which is FASCT
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: and this dates back a long long time.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: It does. Indeed, that's right, and you know, I guess
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: we are. We're I think, as you said, you've you've
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: almost experienced this yourself. We all know that the Sun
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: is the principal source of heat and light, for the
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: planetics what allows life to evolve, it's where the energy
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: comes from. And so it's not really surprising that our
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: forebears of various different ILKs should have had a special
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: place for lights in their understanding. And you've only to
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: think of some of the civilizations in South America which
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: you know, which were based on sun worship, and talked
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: about some of those. The reason why we're talking about
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: this is a very very nice conversation article that has
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: recently been issued the seventh of November, just a few
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: days ago, written by Philippa Martyr who is a lecture
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: lecturer in Pharmacology Women's Health at the School of Biomedical
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: Sciences in the University of Western Australia. And philipp has
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: written a lovely a lovely kind of overview of the
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: part of light in making us better and her article
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: is part science, part magic and illuminating history of feeling
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: with lights. A very nice title there, and it you
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: know it goes. It starts off with some of the
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: most ancient religions on the planet, which involves some worship
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: and takes it from there because often these early religions
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: were tied up with healing and just reading from Philippa's
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: article earlier. While sorry sick people would turn to the
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: shaman or priest or priestess for help and that's you know,
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: so it's a natural thing to do when you kind
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: of feel better when you're in sunlight. And so the
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: article traces, you know, traces that history right through to
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: more modern times. And you know the fact that we
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: still use phototherapy with blue lights used to treat newborn
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: babies with jaundice in hospital. That sort of thing really
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: interesting and a really interesting story with a very comprehensive
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: look at sunlight and its place and you know, well.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Being yes, and when you talk about the ancient cultures
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: that used to use it and papers were actually written
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: about it dating back to fifteen hundred BCE in Egypt.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Egyptian medical scrolls have been discovered that talk about using
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: sunlight mixed with other things to try and overcome certain,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: i don't know, frailties, illnesses, afflictions, whatever you want to
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: call them. But even as simple as the warmth of
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: the sun being used to heal just simply getting warmer.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: And you probably could read some of this stuff and say, oh, look,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: you know it's all hogwash. They were obviously, just you know,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: they didn't know much about medicine, so they came up
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: with these lame brain ideas. But even today light is
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: used in medicine and there are great examples of it.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: It doesn't so much happen in Australia, but there are
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: parts of the world that get very dark and dreary
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: in winter, and you can overcome that with certain forms
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: of light. You can cure jet lag with light. You
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: can different kinds of light for different kinds of circumstances,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: white or blue light. When you expose people to that,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: it can over forms of depression in some cases, and
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: you can use ultraviolet light to treat skin conditions. The
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: article refers to that it is quite a natural thing
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: because we've grown up and adapted to sunlight as a
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: species on this planet over tens of thousands of years.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: So it makes sense. And some of the interesting people
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: that have talked about light have been brought up in
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: this article. One of them was Florence Nightingale, who actually
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: wrote a I think did she write a book about it.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: She wrote a book called Notes on Nursing and was
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: a strong believer in the power of sunlight. This is
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: quite incredible stuff and sorry, go on, no, go.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Ahead, go ahead, Andrew's find Well, I.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Was going to just sort of put myself out there
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: because even though it's not directly sunlight related, we still
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: use things that are created in the light spectrum to
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: treat serious illnesses. And you look at radiation therapy for cancer, Well,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: the rays that are produced by radiation therapy type machines
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: are in the light spectrum. So you could argue that
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: we're still to this day in modern medicine using light.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: And you said earlier Fred that I have some experience
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: with that, and a few people that listen to the
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: show already know this. But I have been for the
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: last two and a bit years been dealing with a
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: cancer diagnosis, and over the last five weeks, I've been
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: receiving radiation therapy for remnant cells caused by prostate cancer,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: and hopefully the therapy will be successful and eradicate them.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: So that's my personal experience with if you want to
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: call it light therapy, it's not use of sunlight. These
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: in my case would I've done some research because I
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: need to know these things for it, but it's in
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: my case the form of therapy I'm receiving is actually
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: using X rays to attack the postak cancer cells. And
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: according to bioncologist, I'm a very very good candidate for
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: this kind of therapy. And it started off with an
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: injection in the bum which was a hormone suppressant to
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: stop testosterone, which is what prostate cancer feeds on. And
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: then that was three months ago, and then I started
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: my radiotherapy five weeks ago, once just after we got
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: back from Turkey, and that finishes at the time of
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: this recording tomorrow. It was my last dose. And then
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: on Thursday I get another hormone shot to stop the
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: testosterone from recharging so that the radiation therapy has got
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: the best possible chance of killing off the cancer cells.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: So yeah, that's been my life for the last five
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: weeks or so. And basically I've been dealing with this
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: for a bit over two years. So at the beginning
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: of last year, I had the prostate removed, but the
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: pathology showed that the cancer had broken through the prostate
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: cell prostate wall and got into a thing called the
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: seminal vesicle. And this was probably the unlucky bit. When
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: they took the prostate out, they severed the seminal vesicle,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: So two millimeters of cancer cells were retained in my
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: body and that's where it's all sort of come from.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: So yeah, that sounds shocking, It sounds horrible, it sounds scary,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: and I suppose it is to a certain degree, but
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: I'm dealing with it and my prognosis is very good.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Obviously they can't give me absolute guarantees, but this therapy
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: is the most successful available today, So fingers crossed. Yeah,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: light therapy is a thing, is a thing.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: So you're right. The X rays that you use are
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: part of the electromagnetic spectrum and so it's just light
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: radiation with very short wavelength. And you know, I think
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: it's all credits you, Andrew, for what you're going through
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: at the moment, and for opening up to all of
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: us space not cases, who are all very much interested
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: in your well being.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I've received some nice messages. I went public
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: through the can the Council New South Wales because I
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: get a regular newsletter from them, and they put an
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: appeel out for anyone who might be willing to tell
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: their story in the hope that it will help others.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: So I know, with my radio background, felt that was
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: probably something appropriate, and I will give the same message
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: right now. If you're a man fifty or over, you
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: need to go to the doctor and have a PSA
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: check and get them to check your heart, your diabetes
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: or bloodshoo levels and your cholesterol or at the same
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: time to make sure you're okay, particularly PSA levels, because
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: if they start to climb, they can look innocent enough
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they will balloon. And
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: that's what happened to me. I went from a two
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: point one ps A level to a seven point eight
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: in twenty two months, and that's when they knew something
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: was dreadfully wrong.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: So all it.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Takes is an annual checkup at your local doctor just
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: to see if everything's okay. And if you do that
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: and you do develop prostate cancer, chances are they'll catch
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: it super early and you won't end up where I am.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: So don't Dealey Deli. It's not going to hurt you.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Just to go and get a quick blood test and
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: sort it all out. That's my message to any man
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: or someone you know of the male persuading fifty or over,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: and I would take that back to forty plus. If
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: there's a family history there, you go all right, I've
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: done my job.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: Well done. Yeah, it's very good to hear.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think it's an important message.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: Indeed, did this. Yeah, and it's all about light, as
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: you say, it's all about light, yes it is.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a great story. Read it. It's at
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the Conversation dot com.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: And it's.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: A really interesting story, part science, past magic, past, part
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: magic and illuminating history of healing with light. It's a
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: terrific story while we're well worth reading. And we might
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: just end it there, Fred, Thank you so much.
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: It's a it's a pleasure, Andrew. It's a temporary ending,
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: of course, because we'll be coming back again.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm not dropping off there. I'm not dropping out
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: of the Twigans. Hurry.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: Believe me when you said I end it there. It
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: did sound a bit final.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: But sorry about that.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: No, it's all good. Yeah, Sorry, I see you next time. Indeed.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, we've got some questions to sort out in our
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: next episode, so I do want to be around for that.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Fred, so soon. Professor Fred Watson, Astronomer at Large.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: And thanks to Hugh in the studio for not sending
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: me any sick jokes this week. He does it all
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: the time and some of them horrible. And from me Andrew,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Uncle you thanks for your company. Catch you on the
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: very next episode guaranteed on Space Nuts.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: Bye bye to the Space nutsdcast.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast player.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: You can also stream on demand at fights dot com.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: This has been another quality podcast production from fights dot com.