Latest / ADHDtime On Air / ADHDtime on Air : Flourishing with ADHD
Transcript
- Daniella Karidi, PhD: Hi everyone. Thank you so much for joining us at ADHD Time on Air. I am joined by Olivia Zavitt and Mike, and they're gonna be telling you us about their amazing new book that I think you should go by and listen to or read, whatever way you get information into your brain. gonna get the opportunity to talk with them about this book, Flourishing with Adult ADHD. and let them introduce the book themselves, because I'm sure they'll do a better job. Micah & Liz: Thank you so much. Well, we're delighted to be here and to have a way to share information about our book people who might be interested. Yeah, and I I'll just share that, you know, Liz and I have been doing research on ADHD and health and wellness coaching together, sometimes with some other colleagues in the field for about 10 years now. and you know, we started a research institute, Springer Institute.org. and you know, this book really came about because we were actually working on a research project to develop a set of Guidelines for co for ADHD coaches for a 12-session coaching engagement. And was part of a larger study we did that was recently published in the American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine. and the process of developing the guidelines, yeah. We worked in the process, we worked with a focus group ⁓ of ADHD coaches, and what Really struck us is that the issue of shame ⁓ being common in many of their adult clients, if not most with ADHD, it was just pervasive. ⁓ the importance of addressing that with clients came up repeatedly as well. So this led us really to the topic of the importance of supporting well-being as an antidote to shame. And wanted to use our research coach clinician ⁓ kind of combined together to help therapists, coaches to understand what theories and frameworks could really be useful to promote well-being for adults with ADHD. So really this book ⁓ evolved all that. ⁓ Daniella Karidi, PhD: I love it. you chose the word flourishing as the title of and I think it's intentional. So tell me a bit about that choice. Why didn't you use words that we hear so much like productivity and success and management of ADHD? ⁓ Micah & Liz: Yeah, yeah, that's such an important point. Well, you know, first of all I'll share that Flourishing is a term that's often used in the field of positive psychology, which has a huge wealth amount of research behind it now. And it's really understood as the opposite of languishing. And refers to what we might call really a sense of optimal human functioning and this kind of holistic state of well-being where an individual feels good, functions well, and is able to resiliently adapt to and meet challenges. this is just so often missing for many adults with ADHD. ⁓ and it's really not the typical focus of treatment models, particularly I'm a coach and a therapist, but particularly in the clinical world where we're really often focused on correcting deficits. and this idea of flourishing, we think is is a crucially important goal that's often overlooked. Yeah, and you ⁓ referred to productivity, success, managing ADHD. And these are all important in their own ways, they're, but they're skill-based and they're not based in who the person is. So in coaching, we sometimes refer to the distinction between a focus on the doing, which is productivity, success, even symptom management, and the being or who the person is. And so much of ADHD care, as well as coaching often, focuses on the doing. What can I learn to do better? How can I function better? know that's important, but we were really shooting for something deeper. ⁓ in our view, real change, and really what's most important to anyone, developing agency, self-appreciation, and the ability to live one's own best life. And so that's where we're really headed in that direction with a focus on flourishing. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I appreciate that as ⁓ as a a consumer and as an ADHDer. I appreciate that focus. what made you decide to write a book that specially is designed for the professionals, the the therapists, the coaches, ⁓ the people that are helping ADHDers? Micah & Liz: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I I would just even like I know our title specifically calls out therapists and coaches, but I would really like to expand that because the the fact is the majority of helping professionals come into contact with an adult with ADHD. So nurses, doctors, occupational therapists, physical therapists, nurses, nurse practitioners, physicians, assistants, anyone. And we know that, you know, many therapists and and specifically even other healthcare professionals are not trained to work with individuals who have ADHD, let alone adults who have ADHD. If if if anything, you get a little bit of an education. I remember I've talked with a psychiatrist, right? They got like three hours of a lecture on ADHD in childhood and adolescence, right? But So it makes it difficult for individuals with ADHD and adults to find the best type of therapeutic support that's affirming and not pathologizing. So we really wanted to help therapists better understand ADHD and adulthood, the challenges, of course, but most importantly the ways to work with with adults who have ADHD ⁓ in a more respectful, supportive, encouraging, and affirming way. I'd I'd also say ⁓ Mike as a therapist and a coach, but I I come, I have a background in nursing, but really have spent a lot of time in the coaching realm focused on ADHD coaching. And even many coaches, including those who are specifically trained to work with individuals having ADHD, were we were trained in useful skill sets to support awareness, to support change. And coaches who have ADHD specific training also learn about executive functioning. How motivation and ADHD is different because of the neurobiological differences strategies that can be helpful in managing ADHD and executive functioning challenges. But we really wanted to take things a step further for both coaches and therapists, but to show how grounding in theoretical frameworks. and in the evidence can really enrich possible ways to work with clients and can support not simply just managing life with ADHD, but really flourishing as a person. And I'll just add too, briefly, you know, w we've also been excited by some feedback from adults with ADHD who have found that they actually appreciate this book. And I think you mentioned yourself some appreciation as someone with lived experience. So it's wonderful for us to hear that we're kind of hitting a wider breadth of readership ⁓ e even beyond what we were initially targeting. Yeah, and really getting a finger on something important and meaningful for adults with ADHD, which was really our hope. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yes, definitely. So if if if you could like think about the the readers, the the therapists, the coaches, the doctors, ⁓ the ADHD professionals in in any hat that they're wearing, if they could take like one or two core ideas from this book, what would be your hope that the they ta stays with them? So I know I read a lot of books and not everything sticks in my brain at the end of the reading. ⁓ So would you like them to kind of be their takeaway? Micah & Liz: Yeah, that that's a great point. I I guess I'll I'll share one and maybe Liz has another thought. ⁓ my my first core takeaway that I hope people to get from reading this book is that ADHD does not exist in a vacuum. It exists within a broader context. That context includes sociocultural, relational, educational, workplace, and ⁓ our nervous systems. Right. ⁓ struggles with ADHD are shaped not only by this kind of neurobiology that we typically think of, but also by this chronic misunderstanding, labeling, unrealistic years of chronic masking, and and trying to in contexts and systems that really were not designed for neurodivergent people. ⁓ and that's one thing Liz and I did in this book was we had a Big emphasis, including a whole chapter on sociocultural contexts helping providers to understand that. ⁓ I think that's something that's very needed in the ADHD space, particularly when it comes to adults. Yeah, and if I could add, ⁓ Micah also sort of focused on taking away a broader understanding of some of the challenges adults with ADHD face, and we definitely Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. Micah & Liz: looked at all the research on that in our book, but an emphasis I hope people take away also is That wellness with ADHD, as it is really for anyone, is highly individualized. There isn't a one-size-fits-all path to productivity, regulation, success, happiness. Effective support for individuals with ADHD goes beyond those productivity systems and planners that you were mentioning earlier. And it really helps people to understand themselves, their unique brainwiring. ⁓ their strengths, needs, values, and capacities, and to develop self as well. So they can build sustainable lives that work for them and that really support flourishing. And I'll just add on to that what Liz is saying because you know it it it's A very important misconception that like we could just give productivity systems to adults with ADHD. But the fact is that doing that and assuming that that would work, finding these, you know, cheat codes online and stuff like that actually often leads to more shame in my my experience of working with clients. you're like, what's wrong with me? Why are these things not working? They're supposed to work with people with ADHD. So that's why we're encouraging a holistic, individualized approach. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I like it. So not only the band-aids, but also addressing the causes and the how to kind of like the behind the wounds. as as someone that spends hours reading research, I really the way your chapters are set up. I like that there's reference. I I have a big issue with a lot of these ADHD books that don't give me the sources. ⁓ So I give you kudos for that. and I imagine wasn't Easy strategizing, organizing, choosing what to focus, what to include. So tell me a bit about that. Micah & Liz: Let say first that this book did not come together quickly. ⁓ it it was a project that was very meaningful to us and that we did put a great deal of time in. Yeah, so the the the that's that's the first disclaimer. This was the ⁓ biggest I have ADHD and this was the the the most draining executive function capacity project I've ever taken on in my entire life. So I just want to let people know that. But Luckily, I was co-authored with Liz, who is a ⁓ Liz is a hop Johns Hopkins trained researcher. So, you know, we are not new to the world of research. ⁓ you know, we are experienced, we've been researching the field of ADHD for about 10 years now, as I mentioned. So we're not strangers to weeding through literature and figuring out, you know, what which topics to take from and How to I mean Liz can summarize you know 10 research studies in you know less than a half an hour. So this is this is we're very familiar in this in this in this space. Yeah, and we we also ⁓ know there is a good deal of ⁓ reference to the research literature in each chapter, but to ⁓ manage, we did our research chapter by chapter. So For some topics, there was a good amount of research material to sort through. And for some, there was much less. Like much more has been studied about the problems of living with ADHD than about how to thrive with ADHD. So we also had to sometimes reach outside of the specifically ADHD literature to bridge the gap how and why certain frameworks or approaches that we felt were very relevant. connected to the ADHD space. It it's interesting too, because like as Liz was saying, there are some topics that had that were very important that we wanted to make sure to include, but had significantly s less peer-reviewed research behind them. So, you know, for example, like there are basically two key researchers who have studied ADHD and mindfulness. And very important topics such as self-compassion have received you know less research specifically related to ADHD. So, you know, one study found that lower self-compassion contributes to poor mental health in adults with ADHD compared to adults without ADHD. So it's important topic. ⁓ Very to Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. Yes. I I I I feel I I can very much relate. I do I work a lot with ⁓ A ADHD in retirement and when and and there is like you know let's let's talk about not finding research. so I very much can relate to the lack of research and having to go behind to other fields and other specialties. and I did find I I wanted to put kudos on on being able to process all that information and putting it in a way that we can consume it. ⁓ so thank you for that. Micah & Liz: Thank you. And I I'm glad to hear that it seems consumable on the other end because that was really our goal. And we also had some wonderful chapter reviewers who like nudged us occasionally to make it more consumable. So we have wonderful support and we're glad to hear that it seems to have worked. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Yes. So there's a lot of information out there. And as someone with dyslexia, I can't wait to listen to the audiobook version. Then I understand it should be out. so I'll I'll I'll I'll purchase that to to reinforce the knowledge, because whatever I read with my eyes doesn't totally get into my brain as much as something I read with my ears. ⁓ but what I did notice when I was reading is that there were some episodes, some chapters, sorry, that really ⁓ were like, ⁓ that's like that was a good way to put all this information out there. And one of them was the episode about psychoeducation, which I found ⁓ the idea of expanding self awareness and supporting empowerment. can you explain to the audience what psychoeducation is and why do you feel it's so important to like give it a whole chapter? Micah & Liz: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. And and you know, we we I I would say probably psychoeducation is typically historically a more clinical term, you know, coming from the the clinical world. But you know, psychoeducation is really the process of helping people to understand about themselves, certain topics, their brains, their nervous systems, the patterns that are impacting their lives. And it's really about making the connection between this thing is happening and this is why it's happening. Instead of this thing happening and why is this thing happening? What's wrong with me? I don't know why this ⁓ this is why it's happening. I have executive functioning issues, and that's what this is. So, in the context of ADHD, psychoeducation really includes understanding executive functioning, emotional regulation, masking, burnout, and so forth. As a way of understanding what's going on in one's life, ⁓ in a more in a graspable Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. Micah & Liz: more useful way to help self-understanding. And I'd share that, you know, psychoeducation is what we would say an evidence-based intervention, right? It is a core foundation for being able to take the next steps and and and figure out, you know, what's going on and how to come up with solutions. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. I appreciate that. And and I do I when I was reading the book, ⁓ I did get this failure of famili of things being familiar. So do you know that like how when you read something and you're like, ⁓ this sounds like something I so all my training that's been years since I you ⁓ since I've been in academ in training, ⁓ it was a nice kind of refresher for some of those terms. And one of the things that I was taught, part of my training is from executive coaching, not people with executive functions, but execs at the business world. we ⁓ we ⁓ trained use the VIA Institute character strength framework, like like I don't know, it was a strong push for that. And I did appreciate it in book because I don't always see it in the world of ADHD. and I did appreciate the list of like the examples. So not only having like the framework, but like the examples that are related to the ADHD. So in the book, you you present a few tools. I just chose one that you know that I connected to as this example. But which ones do you like? Like what are the ones that you feel connected to? Because a lot of these tools, there's like there's a lot of them in the book. So I was just curious about your personal thoughts. Micah & Liz: Yeah, yeah, that's a great that's a great point. And you know, the way Liz and I approached this book was really saying, This is what the research suggests, this is what you can utilize and let's give clinicians and coaches a range of tools really to to draw from. ⁓ and less so from Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. Micah & Liz: Personal, like, you know, okay, this is what we do with our clients, ⁓ even though we do incorporate evidence-based ⁓ approaches. And and I really love the VIA as well, because it helps people shift away from this deficit narrative towards recognizing strengths and values and being able to just be more mindful and attuned of that. ⁓ You know, to answer your question, I would say probably favorite lens to look at things through it is this client-centered approach. because I feel like adults with ADHD are too often boxed into a a stereotyped category or stereotyped set of symptoms. and ADHD is incredibly heterogeneous and individualized. ⁓ so rather than forcing people into these rigid systems or assumptions, I mean, I have clients who will come and you know, I'll be like, hey, do the via character strengths before we have our first session. And you know, it's too overwhelming for them. Like it's it's too much for them to do on their own and they can't get it done. And it the whole point is that that's no big Deal. We can do it together. You can do it later on down the road. And my role is to collaborate with clients and figure out how to build understanding of their nervous system and strengths and challenges and what actually works for their brain wiring. Yeah, I really agree with that piece about client-centered. I came from a nursing background, which is not so client-centered, even though a lot of my career I was fighting for patient-centered care. But ⁓ I was just blown away in my first coach training with the total focus on a client-centered approach. And so I think that's really key in supporting self-determination. I also really ⁓ especially love appreciative inquiry and helping Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm. Micah & Liz: individuals find where they have had some success and build on that success. Whatever, you know, whatever worked there, well, how can you know can that be related to this new thing you want to try? And I love that also when I'm ⁓ teaching, I really emphasize that with students. And I guess I'll just jump back in there briefly because it kind of ties back to the psychoeducation question and one of my approaches. Like for example, in psychoeducation, we introduced something from motivational interviewing called ask ask or illicit provide illicit. and and this this idea of like this is how we Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Micah & Liz: This is how we do client-centered psychoeducation. We ask someone what they know about a topic, what their understanding is, what they want to know. What they want to know. We ask for permission to share a small bite of information. Once we receive that, we share that. And then we ask, how did that land with you? How are you taking that? How does that sit with you? To then kind of complete that circle. So that's a client-centered way of delivering psychoeducation. Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah, I appreciate that. ⁓ both the explanation and the two ⁓ the the the two examples you provided about your preferences, or at least one of your favorites strategies. about favorites, ⁓ what was your favorite chapter or your more meaningful what you enjoyed the most to to because there's there's a lot of info in that book. And so the and the other side of that is You could share also what was your hardest chapter to write or least favorite one to to in to work on. So both sides are acceptable, even though I tend to like the positive stuff better. But Micah & Liz: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I I I gotta be honest, ⁓ they're kind of blurring all together for me right now. But I say Liz and I loved working on all the chapters. ⁓ it we were very excited, particularly like two of them that have less research, particularly like we mentioned on adults with ADHD. So we had to more draw from other sources, including at times, you know, reputable blog posts that that that did focus on this, and that was really those two chapters of cultural humility and sociocultural context that we think is so important to bring into this space. And overlooked. And and very overlooked. And and the chapter on supporting well being where we we introduce our of adult well being. and we some some worksheets available there for for clinicians to use with their clients. ⁓ so we And I'll just say about that Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. Micah & Liz: There's been research, you know, over the past handful of years on all the realms of life that can be adversely affected with ADHD. we to say, okay, what's going to support people in well-being? We don't to have those outcomes. How do we support well-being? And what are the areas that we need to tune into? So that chapter was very important for us, kind of shifting. The narrative. And Liz saying all these negative health outcomes, right? That we know, like all the research that keeps coming out about like ADHD, higher, you know, mort mortality, higher rates of crime, higher risk, you know, you know, all sorts of things, car accidents, right? But we're hoping to say, Okay, it doesn't have to be that way. We can support how can you get somewhere else? Yeah. What's meaningful to you and how can you live a better life? Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Yeah, the what's meaningful to you question leads a lot. I work with my clients and I very much related to that. talking about that, you our conversation with shame. I want to go back to that ⁓ because it it is so important. And and if you if anyone was listened to previous podcasts, you'd be amazed how much time ⁓ shame comes up on my conversations with authors about books relating to ADHD. I mean, you might not be surprised, but the listeners might be surprised. So how does shame interfere in flourishing? How does shame interfere in getting us into a better place? Micah & Liz: Yeah, yeah, that's Yeah, that's that's very important. And and I'll just share that Liz and I first thought that we would write about shame. Yeah, we started doing research on that, and it's part of the reason the introduction to our book ended up so long because we were looking at shame and all these related contexts, and then we just really didn't want to write that book. but we felt it was still an important con contextualization of why this book was needed as You know, the kind of opposite. So we left it in the introduction. And you know, and and I'll say, you know, shame is one of the most significant barriers to flourishing, ⁓ as you're mentioning for adults with ADHD, because many of us I haven't met anyone who hasn't grown up with these internalized messages of lazy, being too much, not enough, stupid, constantly failing despite efforts. And over time, this is just the way you know neurology and neuroscience works. Like those experiences start to shape identity and self-worth and impact the way our nervous system functions. So while we don't quite go into this specifically in the book, you know, our book supports a what's called a polyvagal theory perspective. And chronic shame keeps the nervous system stuck in this state of threat, shutdown. You know, or even hypervigilance rather than this ventral vagal sense of safety and connection. So when someone's operating in a survival state, it becomes much harder to access creativity, flexibility, flourishing. Even we lose we lose capacity to access our executive functions when we're in a survival state. So all of those are are difficult to access. Yeah. And Daniella Karidi, PhD: I don't know if you remember the first time me and you met ⁓ face to face. ⁓ you were standing next to a poster at Aspar at the at a conference. ⁓ and that's where we met face to face. And I was standing with an author that talks exactly about that book, about that topic, Thriving Socially with ADHD. and she and you ⁓ got talking so much that I had to like walk away. I was like, okay, you guys can keep on talking. I'll be back and I'll have you in my podcast later. So if anyone wants to hear her, I think she's like the second or third podcast in my collection talking about exactly if you want to learn more about that topic. but ⁓ yes, I I I found that an conversation. And ⁓ I do appreciate it the opportunity that we had to meet and talk about this. And let led us to this podcast to me knowing even about the book coming out. Micah & Liz: Flourishing often can begin when people do move away from that self-criticism and the masking towards self-understanding, compassion, all that that leads to nervous system regulation ⁓ seeking environments that support authenticity rather than shame. So really that is what we decided to focus on. What supports well-being, what supports flourishing, rather Shame itself. And and it's not as hard as as providers who don't work with adults with ADHD may be wondering, well, how on earth are you supposed to do that? It's not as hard as you might think. Once you start to relabel the challenges as it's a personal moral failing, there's something inherently wrong with me, to there's something different in the way my brain and nervous system are wired. How can I work with that? Yeah. That's a very simple but powerful shift. Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: appreciate that nuance and I appreciate, and I'm sure my audience will appreciate hearing that And then that really goes to the next question I have here written down. And I write down the questions because, you know, memory and ADHD and executive function challenges. So let's support ourselves by doing those things. So the question I I was thinking about is ⁓ how do we move our clients from that self-criticism towards the self-understanding without the d dismissing the accountability of doing stuff. So how do we shift successfully self criticism ⁓ self understanding, but still being accountable for our behavior? Micah & Liz: Yeah, yeah. That's a good question. That that's a great question. You I and I often tell clients, particularly who are having challenges, you know, in relationships and marriages with ADHD that has largely gone undiagnosed and untreated. It's it's ADHD is an explanation, not an excuse. And accountability is certainly very important, but several other things I think are really important too. You know, I would just say for one, you know, action steps and new behaviors need to be chunked down to very small micro stops. Yeah. In fact, we have a chapter on that, small wins, because it's so important. Yeah. And and this allows for make it the bar lower, easier for follow through, and providing structures and supports, you know, to enable that. Because without getting any progress forward, we're not going to get any traction. But if the bar's too high, we can't never get we can't jump over that bar. We're just staring at this endless mountain in front of us. So second, I would say new action steps and behaviors. We like to phrase these as experiments, right? Shifting away from this all or nothing black and white thinking. I've done it or I haven't, I've failed or I've succeeded. Let's look at it from an experiment with a lent lens of curiosity and see what we can learn about ourselves during the process and grow with that. And I would say third, you know, experimenting the goal there is to foster growth mindset. So key, really. ⁓ yeah, absolutely. That's what we're looking at, how to open up our thinking to be more broad, to problem solve effectively. that gives more opportunities. And we have a whole chapter on growth mindset in our book. So we we tell you all about how to help clients to foster that. And then, you know, fourthly, I would say accountability shouldn't be about success or failure. It should be about learning ⁓ growth and how you can make progress from what happened and move forward. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I appreciate that. I appreciate and I I find that a lot of my clients struggle with the definition of accountability, with even defining what is they self criticize when they do succeed to get to the goal because they put the the the the raft so high. Like it has to be a perfect podcast or it shouldn't go out there. It has to be a perfect creation or so, even if they did something, they put it out there and they made met their goal. They moved it as they were doing it or they expected a lot more than they should. And this is where I go to the next kind of question I have about self-compassion. how does that play in the long term management of ADHD? Micah & Liz: Well, been increasing research largely by Kristen Neff ⁓ ⁓ Germer, just about self-compassion for anyone being important because for everyone life is challenging and what we can do is our best, right? So adults with ADHD have typically faced many challenges throughout life. including being judged, being misunderstood, and consequently, like we've talked about, shame and self-judgment. Self-compassion is really ⁓ an attitude as well as a practice that can, in my in our view, really provide an antidote to this self-judgment because it encourages accepting and acknowledging one's experience in a mindful way, connecting with what Kristen Neff calls common humanity. Others have gone through a similar challenge. it it takes it notches down that self-criticism. And also acknowledges that mistakes will happen. That's part of being human. So it's a gentler response to mistakes or you know, not succeeding in that little experiment or whatever. And in that gentleness, it clears the way for considering what's next. And ⁓ yeah, that's why why we think it's very important. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. I ⁓ I I ⁓ very much agree with the importance of self-compassion. And I when we talk about memory failures a lot, and I keep on reminding people that the default of our memory system is to forget. so we need to be compassionate when we forget stuff instead of that self, we just we we just fell into the default of the system. so is there ADHD recommendation that you commonly hear ⁓ in conferences online in social media, that you kind of like go, ⁓ that's wrong. Let's stop saying that to people with ADHD. Let's stop giving that that information because there's really no evidence or because the evidence is actually the opposite. Micah & Liz: Yeah, yeah, that that's a great question. ⁓ you know, I I I guess I guess I would say of what's out there online is in the realm of like strategies. Self-help strategies for what have worked for other people. ⁓ know, see this on TikTok, Instagram, this and that, you know, that's fine. But if strategies are not built on a base of self-understanding and self-acceptance, just like you were talking about memories, they're not gonna stick. They they only go so far and and right, they may not be well maintained or built on. So so that's why like our book really focuses more holistically. And I'd say also the thing with this is kind of an indirect way of answering your question, but there are many apps out there the app marketplace, digital tools, you know, that that. Really don't have research to support them, but they're they're claiming they're backed by research. ⁓ know I I just advise consumers to you know be wary and and doesn't mean that it won't help you. But you many are claiming, you know, supported by research, but they're saying, ⁓ we use principles from, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy, we use principles from behavior change theory or motivational interviewing, but their actual proprietary program has not been been studied. you know, that that that's why we we really focus more holistically in our book. And yeah, and from the ground up with the person, really understanding Understanding themselves, how they operate, accepting themselves, and then making way for self-determination and growth mindset, which really lead to more lasting change. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Like that. now that you wrote a book, had all these experiences, ⁓ what would you tell yourself as a beginning therapist or coach or like someone that's like like you, what would you say if you st now that you have all this information, if you're be if you would go back in time, what would you tell yourself? Micah & Liz: For me, if I were to be a new coach again, I would work with clients less on simply an executive functioning focus, skills, productivity, spending a lot of time finding the perfect planner and that was really the kind of the training I came out of, and really more ⁓ like we talked about earlier, the person rather than. the actions, the being rather than the doing, self-understanding, self-acceptance, growth mindset. Really all of that helps a person figure out the skills that will work for them ⁓ be comfortable experimenting. ⁓ I think I would just have a total different mindset. I mean that comes from years of experience as a coach, but also really applying you know theory and evidence. you know, also shifted my perspective. Yeah, I I I'd say I similar to Liz's line of thinking, ⁓ yeah, I would bring a more of a psychoeducational emphasis, like I take now, on really brain, you know, neurobiology, system wiring to help clients work more from a somatic lens versus working from a ⁓ problem-solving strategy lens. So it is more of a holistic lens and and kind of a, we would say, in in the ⁓ somatic field, more of a bottom-up lens. That I have found is is really in my experience more conducive to being able to then access cognitive resources. Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: appreciate that. and now that you're looking forward, like to the future self, which I know is sometimes hard for us ADHDers, but in general, now that you're looking forward, what kind professional hope do you continue to like what do you see on your in the future? Micah & Liz: Think for me, and this you can say whether this is true for you, but well, I think it is true for you. You tell me if it's not. I think our hope for this book, and what we put into this book is really ⁓ not just for ourselves, but we really hope for a couple of things. We really hope to promote evidence-based. ⁓ coaching and therapy, better informed therapists, take the conversation further, not for ourselves and our own practices, but much more broadly. Take the conversation to well being, take the conversation to what theories really support someone. From the ground up in becoming the person they would be more comfortable as. Yeah, exactly. It and ⁓ the conversation away from deficit-based models that ⁓ medical, medicalized based models towards more human, ⁓ neuro-affirming and strength-based perspective. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And and our hope is that adults with ADHD can more easily find. compassionate source support to support their flourishing, right? I mean I I I've heard from countless clients that, you know you know, providers they've gone to who supposedly knew how to work with adults with ADHD were not helpful and did not in fact know how to work with them because they threw problem solving stuff at them. They gave them a workbook to you know so ⁓ helping adults to find supports meaningful change that happens through connections, safety, regulation, compassion, right? Just helping people to understand how to work with their brains, live in and less shame and and permission to live authentically. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I appreciate that. can you just repeat where they can find you, where they can find the book, what is the full title ⁓ before we say goodbye. Micah & Liz: thank you. Our book is Flourishing with Adult ADHD, the evidence-based guide to client well-being for therapists and coaches. As said, people with ADHD themselves are giving us great feedback about the value of this book. This book is available on Amazon. ⁓ hopefully you can include it in your your show notes. ⁓ This book is available directly from our publisher on Routledge. Liz and I both coach at Pathways Ahead, ADHD and well-being coaching. my clinical work as a therapist ⁓ in Maryland, DC, and Virginia is at adult trauma and ADHD solutions. And Liz and I both do research. and disseminate our research results. We have a digital database available for anyone interested in looking at the research studies out ADHD coaching at Springer ⁓ Springer Institute.org. and are both on LinkedIn and Facebook and whatnot. Daniella Karidi, PhD: And I will put a bunch of those links in the show notes. you I'm sure will ⁓ have other opportunities to talk again, maybe face to face again. ⁓ and thank you so much for coming and talking about your book. Thank you so much. Micah & Liz: Thank you for having us. We're very grateful.