Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Curb to Cabin Canada Episode #1: Interview with Steve Dawson, Senior Operations Manager, Fnyx Aviation Services

Transcript

Curb to Cabin Canada Episode #1: Interview with Steve Dawson, Senior Operations Manager, Fnyx Aviation Services · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:10
Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings from Toronto, and welcome to Curb to Cabin Canada.
0:15
Podcast Commentator: What really happens to blind and low-vision passengers when they fly?
0:20
Podcast Commentator: Your host, Donna J. Jodhan,
0:23
Podcast Commentator: is a lifelong blind advocate and law graduate whose landmark Charter case in
0:28
Podcast Commentator: 2010 compelled the Government of Canada to make its websites accessible to all
0:33
Podcast Commentator: Canadians, not just those with sight.
0:37
Podcast Commentator: Each episode follows one part of the air travel journey from curb to cabin,
0:42
Podcast Commentator: and asks the airlines, airports, and agencies a single question:
0:47
Podcast Commentator: Is this working?
0:49
Podcast Commentator: Donna serves on accessibility advisory committees in the aviation sector.
0:54
Podcast Commentator: None of them pays for this programme, and none sees a question before it is asked.
0:59
Podcast Commentator: Curb to Cabin Canada is presented to you by Donna J. Jodhan,
1:03
Podcast Commentator: with support from sponsors to be announced.
1:06
Podcast Commentator: None of our sponsors have any say in what this programme reports.
1:11
Podcast Commentator: Now, let's dive in with your host, Donna J. Jodhan.
1:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everybody,
1:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and welcome to the very first episode of Curb to Cabin
1:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Canada,
1:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the podcast which would talk about what really happens when
1:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: disabled Canadians travel,
1:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what it takes to make every step of that journey work.
1:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm Donna J. Jodhan. I'm blind, I fly,
1:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I know how much can go wrong between the curb and the cabin.
1:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Today, I'm here with Steve Dawson,
1:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: senior operations manager at Fnyx Aviation, I hope I got that right,
2:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Services, whose team provides passengers assistance at
2:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Toronto Pearson.
2:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Steve, welcome to the show.
2:15
Steve Dawson: Thank you very much for the invitation, Donna.
2:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're welcome. All right, so let's get started.
2:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Steve, you spent 19 years at Scotiabank,
2:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: ran express operations for Aramex,
2:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and worked in sales before joining
2:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: AAS Canada at Toronto Pearson in
2:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 2018 to manage assistance— 15:04 PM… for passengers with reduced
2:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: mobility.
2:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What drew you to this work— Cabin temperature,
2:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 57 degrees Fahrenheit… and what from those earlier careers turned out to matter
3:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: most when the person that you are serving is a traveller
3:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: with a disability?
3:09
Steve Dawson: Oh, now that's an excellent question, Donna. I
3:13
Steve Dawson: have a niece who's been in a wheelchair since birth and she has spina bifida,
3:18
Steve Dawson: and she's severely disabled. And I've spent a great deal of time with her,
3:21
Steve Dawson: taking her to hockey games, baseball games, travelling with her,
3:25
Steve Dawson: and I was amazed at the wide spectrum or wide levels of service
3:31
Steve Dawson: available.
3:32
Steve Dawson: Some places were absolutely outstanding to make sure that every single need she had
3:36
Steve Dawson: was taken care of, and others fell rather short of the mark.
3:40
Steve Dawson: And
3:41
Steve Dawson: I found it very discouraging to see that we weren't maintaining a consistent level
3:46
Steve Dawson: of service here in Canada,
3:49
Steve Dawson: taking care of people who need some
3:52
Steve Dawson: assistance, some mobility assistance.
3:55
Steve Dawson: And the company I was working for at the time,
3:57
Steve Dawson: I was working in a different division for them, for TBM Services,
3:59
Steve Dawson: as their TTC division,
4:01
Steve Dawson: and I saw some of this as working as a contractor for the TTC as well,
4:06
Steve Dawson: where again,
4:06
Steve Dawson: the people who need a little more mobility assistance weren't getting the consistent
4:11
Steve Dawson: help they needed.
4:13
Steve Dawson: So when the company approached me and asked me if I'd like to help start up AAS
4:16
Steve Dawson: Canada at the airport, I was one of the first eight managers and
4:20
Steve Dawson: I jumped at the opportunity. I said, "Sure, I would absolutely love to."
4:25
Steve Dawson: And that's what got me interested more than anything.
4:27
Steve Dawson: Needless to say, the pay that was offered didn't discourage me either,
4:31
Steve Dawson: but
4:33
Steve Dawson: in my heart of hearts, it's what I wanted to do,
4:35
Steve Dawson: to see if I could make a difference.
4:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What I find is that those of us who are close to a person with a
4:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: disability, whether it's a friend or a family member,
4:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: we seem to understand much more quickly what is needed.
4:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Would you agree with that?
4:53
Steve Dawson: I agree 100%.
4:56
Steve Dawson: It's almost like a different language,
4:58
Steve Dawson: and if you have somebody who needs assistance in your life,
5:00
Steve Dawson: that's immersion and you're immersed in it, and you understand
5:05
Steve Dawson: how the smallest thing can certainly make a big, big difference in the experience.
5:08
Steve Dawson: And I'm sure you've experienced that yourself when travelling.
5:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
5:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In May of 2021,
5:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Toronto Pearson published a staff story called
5:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "Meet Steve,"
5:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: about a manager of services of passengers with reduced
5:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: mobility at its accessibility partner,
5:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: AAS Canada, crediting well-trained team
5:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: that serves travellers with physical and hidden disabilities.
5:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Was that you? And in the years since,
5:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: what has changed most for travellers with disabilities at Pearson,
6:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what has not changed enough?
6:05
Steve Dawson: Wow, has it been over five years already since I did that?
6:07
Steve Dawson: Yes, that was me. [laughs] I can't believe it's been five years already.
6:12
Steve Dawson: That was certainly me. And yeah, a lot has changed since then.
6:17
Steve Dawson: Certainly
6:18
Steve Dawson: the biggest thing that has changed is the volumes of passengers with restricted
6:23
Steve Dawson: mobility who need assistance. As an example, in that month,
6:27
Steve Dawson: in May 2021, my
6:31
Steve Dawson: company assisted 887 people with restricted mobility.
6:36
Steve Dawson: The following May, we assisted over 13,000.
6:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, wow.
6:39
Steve Dawson: And then this past May, we assisted almost 36,000
6:44
Steve Dawson: in the month. So the volumes have gone up. Now, keep in mind,
6:47
Steve Dawson: there's a COVID effect in there, too, as well, Donna,
6:50
Steve Dawson: needless to say. But
6:53
Steve Dawson: the amount of growth
6:55
Steve Dawson: with the aging demographic in Canada, of course, is a big part of it,
6:58
Steve Dawson: but there's more to it than that as well.
7:00
Steve Dawson: There's a great deal of international travellers who
7:05
Steve Dawson: prefer to use the wheelchair as a device in order to help them with wayfinding or
7:10
Steve Dawson: if there's a language problem,
7:12
Steve Dawson: to get assistance from the aircraft door to the curb,
7:15
Steve Dawson: as you allude to.
7:17
Steve Dawson: And in a lot of cases, it's elderly people who certainly need the wheelchair,
7:20
Steve Dawson: but there's certainly plenty of cases where that's not the case.
7:23
Steve Dawson: And it could be argued that this could be distracting from the people who genuinely
7:28
Steve Dawson: have
7:31
Steve Dawson: accessibility issues.
7:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But I tend to agree with that,
7:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but it's amazing how this has grown because
7:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think with the rapidly aging population,
7:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: along with more people who are gaining confidence in travelling,
7:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: persons with a disability or a need,
7:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: this has grown immensely, hasn't it?
7:55
Steve Dawson: Oh. Pearson Airport handles over 4,000 wheelchairs daily.
8:01
Steve Dawson: Pearson Airport, and that's all the carriers combined.
8:03
Steve Dawson: 4,000 wheelchairs daily, and it's staggering.
8:07
Steve Dawson: Clearly when the airport was designed, it wasn't designed with 4,000 daily
8:13
Steve Dawson: passengers with accessibility needs in mind.
8:15
Steve Dawson: [laughs] And to the GTAA's credit, they've started their LIFT programme,
8:19
Steve Dawson: which is updating a lot of the infrastructure to make it better,
8:23
Steve Dawson: but they're playing catch-up right now. But right now,
8:26
Steve Dawson: with the number of passengers who need special assistance,
8:31
Steve Dawson: as an airport and as a company to some extent,
8:34
Steve Dawson: we're still playing catch-up for the number of people who need the help.
8:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.
8:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, Fnyx describes its aviation work as passenger
8:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: services delivered, and I quote, "with dignity,
8:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: coordination, and control," unquote.
8:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Dignity is a word that blind travellers hear a great deal of.
9:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What does dignity look like in practice when your team
9:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: assists a blind or low-vision traveller,
9:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and how would you know if it were missing?
9:18
Steve Dawson: No, I think I can answer that well by telling you a story,
9:21
Steve Dawson: Donna. When we started up our passengers with restricted mobility division
9:26
Steve Dawson: and we inherited employees from another contractor who's handling seven different
9:31
Steve Dawson: airlines.
9:34
Steve Dawson: And a company called TGAS, and very nice people.
9:37
Steve Dawson: We inherited all their staff. And the first week I was working,
9:41
Steve Dawson: I saw a person getting off the aircraft with a white cane,
9:44
Steve Dawson: and the first thing the attendant did was open a wheelchair for them.
9:50
Steve Dawson: And I thought, "I have a lot of work to do [laughs] with these people."
9:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah.
9:55
Steve Dawson: And then within that, within two week,
9:57
Steve Dawson: I saw another one of my agents that I'd inherited petting a service dog sort of
10:02
Steve Dawson: thing. I went, "Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness."
10:04
Steve Dawson: So obviously we had to revamp the training severely for
10:11
Steve Dawson: the whole division. And we've done a pretty good job,
10:15
Steve Dawson: and there's always room for improvement,
10:16
Steve Dawson: but I remember very well those first three months,
10:19
Steve Dawson: the things that we seen were just staggering to me.
10:22
Steve Dawson: And
10:24
Steve Dawson: when we talk about dignity, what I teach employees who join us,
10:28
Steve Dawson: if you have somebody who has a visual disability sort of thing,
10:32
Steve Dawson: listen to them. Don't assume.
10:34
Steve Dawson: They know better than you do what kind of assistance they need,
10:37
Steve Dawson: and so ask, "How can I help you best?" And as you're aware,
10:42
Steve Dawson: Donna, some people would like to put the hand on the shoulder.
10:44
Steve Dawson: Some people would like you to take your arm.
10:45
Steve Dawson: Other people just want you to walk ahead of them
10:48
Steve Dawson: and follow along, right? And they can follow along,
10:52
Steve Dawson: service dog or no service dog, and they'll follow right behind you.
10:55
Steve Dawson: But I think a lot of
10:58
Steve Dawson: people make assumptions
11:01
Steve Dawson: when they're dealing with people with disabilities and,
11:04
Steve Dawson: particularly with the visually impaired, frankly,
11:07
Steve Dawson: that they should not be making. [laughs] And they… I've seen… I literally,
11:11
Steve Dawson: those first few months we were starting up here,
11:13
Steve Dawson: I saw agents take someone's arm and put their arm on their arm sort of thing
11:16
Steve Dawson: without even asking first.
11:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yes.
11:18
Steve Dawson: And I was like, "Oh my goodness. Oh." [laughs] And
11:22
Steve Dawson: I knew I was at the start of a very long road then,
11:24
Steve Dawson: but I feel we've come a long way down the road since those days.
11:28
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
11:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh.
11:29
Steve Dawson: And I'm very, very proud of the management team I have in place now here.
11:33
Steve Dawson: But those first scary days in 2019 were scary indeed.
11:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have my own story to tell, and I have seen really,
11:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: really big leaps of improvement. When I first noticed all this was…
11:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you had the agent coming with the wheelchair,
11:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and after about three or four times, I said, "I don't want any dot,
11:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: dot wheelchair. Do you understand me?"
12:01
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
12:02
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And poor agents, I know they meant well, but they just didn't know.
12:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Today, you have agents who approach me saying,
12:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "Would you like a wheelchair or would you like me to escort you?"
12:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? And so that is big improvement in my books.
12:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it's great.
12:22
Steve Dawson: Oh. Glad to hear that.
12:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yeah, and it—
12:23
Steve Dawson: Very glad to hear that. But yeah,
12:25
Steve Dawson: it's very concerning when people make an assumption that's not there.
12:29
Steve Dawson: And yeah,
12:31
Steve Dawson: that was one of the things that was right when I started that the crew that I
12:34
Steve Dawson: inherited really,
12:37
Steve Dawson: really weren't well versed in training with the visually impaired.
12:40
Steve Dawson: And they were automatically bringing the wheelchair out from the gate.
12:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah.
12:44
Steve Dawson: That might make your job a little bit easier,
12:46
Steve Dawson: but that's not the way we do that here, so [laughs] fortunately,
12:49
Steve Dawson: I'm glad to hear… I appreciate the positive feedback from you that there's
12:52
Steve Dawson: been some improvement in that side.
12:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, definite improvement. And the agents, they want to please.
12:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They want to do what is right, which is a great attitude.
13:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I really, really love that. You know?
13:05
Steve Dawson: Yeah,
13:06
Steve Dawson: with my HR department, I train them. I say,
13:10
Steve Dawson: "What kind of people are we looking for to hire for it?"
13:12
Steve Dawson: And say, "Well, people with aviation experience," etc. And I said,
13:15
Steve Dawson: "Aviation experience means nothing to me. I want people with empathy.
13:20
Steve Dawson: I want people
13:22
Steve Dawson: who really care.
13:23
Steve Dawson: I want you asking behavioural questions of people and asking if you saw a 90-year-old
13:28
Steve Dawson: woman trying to cross the road, what would you do about it?"
13:31
Steve Dawson: Sort of thing. And who'd answer, "Of course,
13:33
Steve Dawson: I'd run over and I'd help make sure they get across the road safely."
13:36
Steve Dawson: And I mean, Donna, I can teach anybody to drive one of our golf carts.
13:39
Steve Dawson: I can teach anybody to push a wheelchair.
13:43
Steve Dawson: But having people with empathy, if God hasn't put that in already,
13:46
Steve Dawson: I'm not too sure I can add that. I can train them that side of it.
13:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I agree with that. If they don't have it in them,
13:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you're not gonna get anywhere.
13:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know? You could try to teach them or bring a horse to water,
14:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: whatever you wanna say. But it just isn't going to happen.
14:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you're gonna find—
14:06
Steve Dawson: One question I like to ask new employees, I say,
14:07
Steve Dawson: "Tell me about your relationship with your grandparents."
14:10
Steve Dawson: And you'd be amazed the stuff that comes up. They say,
14:12
Steve Dawson: "Oh, they're such a pain. They want me to do everything [laughs] for them."
14:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
14:15
Steve Dawson: And I'm not exaggerating at all. Now, the ones we hire,
14:19
Steve Dawson: one say, "Oh,
14:19
Steve Dawson: I go over and I cook meals for them and Anna a couple of times a week,"
14:22
Steve Dawson: and help— sometimes she needs help to go shopping. And I'm thinking,
14:25
Steve Dawson: "Okay, this is somebody I want working with my company,
14:27
Steve Dawson: for sure."
14:28
Steve Dawson: But behavioural questions that determine how empathetic somebody is goes a long
14:33
Steve Dawson: way, and we've been very fortunate to hire… 99%,
14:37
Steve Dawson: I think we've hired some very— people who really do give a damn about
14:41
Steve Dawson: the elderly folks and
14:44
Steve Dawson: people who need a mobility assistance.
14:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've definitely seen big leaps of improvement, and I'm so pleased.
14:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I love the agents every time you send them out to me.
14:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't want to mention certain names, but, oh, what the hell,
14:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Brent. Brent is my most favourite one. You have Christina and Sophia and,
15:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: oh, so many others.
15:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They're great. They're great.
15:09
Steve Dawson: Yep, and we're very fortunate. We have a very good staff,
15:14
Steve Dawson: a staff that gives a damn, as I implied. And
15:17
Steve Dawson: that goes right up to management. I'm very, very careful when I hire managers.
15:21
Steve Dawson: It's… the managers have that attitude,
15:23
Steve Dawson: 'cause that filters down to the staff as well.
15:26
Steve Dawson: And I ask managers when I'm interviewing them that same question,
15:29
Steve Dawson: "Oh, tell me about your relationship with your grandparents."
15:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I love that.
15:32
Steve Dawson: And
15:34
Steve Dawson: I mean, I had a very close relationship with my grandparents.
15:36
Steve Dawson: They've long since passed, of course,
15:38
Steve Dawson: but I think that really taught me a lot about assisting folks
15:44
Steve Dawson: who need mobility assistance because they need a lot of help.
15:47
Steve Dawson: And fortunately, I had four brothers helping me.
15:51
Steve Dawson: I'm not gonna take all of the credit, [laughs] but we,
15:54
Steve Dawson: as a family, we're always very close and taking care of one another,
15:57
Steve Dawson: and certainly of the elders in the family.
16:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As you say that, my mom fell three years ago,
16:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I'm just telling tales out of school here, but she has caregivers,
16:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and you could tell some of them are only… And they say it,
16:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "I'm only here to pay the bills."
16:13
Steve Dawson: Ugh.
16:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's terrible.
16:14
Steve Dawson: I've seen that before. My mother has a PSW who comes and visits her
16:20
Steve Dawson: a few times a week, and some of them are exceptional,
16:22
Steve Dawson: and then some of them are like the person you just described,
16:24
Steve Dawson: saying, "Pfft, I'm just here for a paycheck," sort of thing.
16:28
Steve Dawson: Yeah, and in that kind of job—
16:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's terrible.
16:30
Steve Dawson: That's disastrous, as you can imagine.
16:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Gosh. Now,
16:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Pearson's website tells travellers that their airline
16:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: is responsible for mobility assistance from
16:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: curb to boarding.
16:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And now the Canadian Transportation Agency's guidance says
16:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: that the airport as terminal operator is
17:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: responsible for helping a traveller get from the curb to check-in
17:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: unless the airline provides that help itself,
17:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and that the airport can be held responsible if the help falls short.
17:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For the listeners who have never thought about who is really in charge,
17:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: okay, where does Fnyx
17:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: sit in that picture?
17:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Who hires your team,
17:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and who do you answer to when something goes wrong?
17:41
Steve Dawson: Now, that's an excellent question.
17:44
Steve Dawson: That's a really well-worded question.
17:47
Steve Dawson: We have two divisions who are involved in mobility assistance here.
17:49
Steve Dawson: When I first started, the division I first started in,
17:53
Steve Dawson: it's called the surreys and wheelchair replenishment division.
17:58
Steve Dawson: And their job is to drive the golf carts around and to stock wheelchairs in all the
18:02
Steve Dawson: corrals, make sure that we always have plenty of wheelchairs available,
18:04
Steve Dawson: and other mobility devices, eagle lifts, aisle chairs,
18:07
Steve Dawson: and the like.
18:10
Steve Dawson: And that's contracted by the GTA. And so that division,
18:14
Steve Dawson: we have licensing agreements we have to meet.
18:18
Steve Dawson: There's financial penalties if we do not meet them.
18:20
Steve Dawson: If we leave a wheelchair corral empty for a period of time,
18:23
Steve Dawson: we're paying a financial penalty for it.
18:25
Steve Dawson: Or if we go half an hour without a surrey driving by a pickup area,
18:29
Steve Dawson: we'll pay a financial penalty for that. And that's our one division.
18:32
Steve Dawson: Now, the second division we started up, that I started up,
18:35
Steve Dawson: I was asked to take charge of it, that started in September 2019,
18:39
Steve Dawson: and that's our PRM division, Passengers with Restricted Mobility division.
18:43
Steve Dawson: And
18:46
Steve Dawson: then they're responsible for pushing the wheelchairs
18:49
Steve Dawson: literally from the garage right to the aircraft door,
18:52
Steve Dawson: from the aircraft door right to the garage.
18:54
Steve Dawson: And we started with seven airlines here,
18:58
Steve Dawson: and we've gotten huge,
19:01
Steve Dawson: and we've expanded significantly over the last seven to eight years.
19:05
Steve Dawson: We have 27 airlines now that we're handling the wheelchair service for.
19:08
Steve Dawson: So since we started up, we've added most of the big carriers,
19:12
Steve Dawson: Delta, WestJet, Air Transat.
19:17
Steve Dawson: When we started, only three airlines were doing their own wheelchair service.
19:20
Steve Dawson: Right now,
19:21
Steve Dawson: Air Canada is the only airline that still services their own passengers' wheelchair
19:25
Steve Dawson: service. Delta and WestJet used to do their own services.
19:29
Steve Dawson: We convinced them to let us give it a try,
19:30
Steve Dawson: that we thought we could give them a better service,
19:33
Steve Dawson: and we've been very successful.
19:35
Steve Dawson: WestJet's very pleased with the service we're giving.
19:38
Steve Dawson: And yeah, it's been a very good success story,
19:42
Steve Dawson: and I think it alludes to what we were talking about before,
19:44
Steve Dawson: hiring the right people to do the work for us.
19:48
Steve Dawson: But who's responsible? Ultimately, yeah,
19:52
Steve Dawson: the airline is responsible to make sure the passengers get
19:57
Steve Dawson: to the aircraft door. I'm their contractor for 27 of the airlines here.
20:02
Steve Dawson: And so I'm responsible to make sure it happens. But ultimately,
20:05
Steve Dawson: the airline is the one held accountable if it doesn't happen.
20:08
Steve Dawson: Now, the GTA has their own certain responsibilities,
20:11
Steve Dawson: as you mentioned before,
20:13
Steve Dawson: with making sure that passengers who are being dropped off at the curb have a
20:16
Steve Dawson: viable path for getting to their check-in counter or getting to where they need to
20:20
Steve Dawson: be. But
20:23
Steve Dawson: for any of the 27 airlines that our PRM division handles,
20:26
Steve Dawson: certainly the buck stops with me and I take full accountability for any failures
20:32
Steve Dawson: along the way, hopefully few and far between.
20:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm a little or a wee bit confused when it comes to Air Canada in that I was told
20:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: that when you get to the terminal,
20:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: they are responsible from curb to check-in to the aircraft.
20:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yet when you call them, they didn't seem to understand what it fully meant.
20:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I was really disheartened and disappointed in their
21:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: ability to understand what it means
21:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: to pick someone up at the curb. So I started dealing with your people.
21:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what I do is that I always call the duty manager before,
21:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and they are there when I get there.
21:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They help me to check in. And from check-in,
21:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: if it's a non-Air Canada… If I'm going with Air Canada,
21:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Air Canada takes over. If I'm not, like Air Transat or Caribbean Airlines,
21:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: your people take over. So
21:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: is that correct? So who do I call?
21:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean,
21:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I got into the bad habit of calling the duty manager to come pick me up if it's—
21:46
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
21:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: An Air Canada flight. What should I do?
21:51
Steve Dawson: Yeah, there is a phone number on the website
21:55
Steve Dawson: that you can direct to call for curbside pickup or to pre-arrange curbside pickup,
21:59
Steve Dawson: in fact. Say, "Yeah, I'm gonna be there on this date at this time.
22:03
Steve Dawson: Can you please have a wheelchair…" So you call the number.
22:06
Steve Dawson: It's a GTA phone number.
22:08
Steve Dawson: They'll direct you to either Air Canada or they'll direct you to,
22:11
Steve Dawson: if it's one of our 27 airlines,
22:14
Steve Dawson: us or one of our three competitors if it's one of their airlines.
22:18
Steve Dawson: They'll direct you to that particular contractor.
22:22
Steve Dawson: But the majority of them we're handling.
22:25
Steve Dawson: And so you'd probably get put through to our dispatch
22:28
Steve Dawson: and our dispatch agent would take the information and have the pickup arranged
22:32
Steve Dawson: for you to meet you at the curb or the parking lot or UP Express or
22:36
Steve Dawson: wherever you need to be picked up from.
22:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As lately as a few weeks ago, I was travelling to Mexico with Air Canada,
22:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: so I just
22:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: phoned your duty manager. They were there.
22:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They took me to check in and then after that the Air Canada folks took over.
22:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, for me, that works.
22:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But with Caribbean Airlines you know that you're going with your agents from curb
23:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: to cabin.
23:06
Steve Dawson: Right. And just to be clear,
23:08
Steve Dawson: Air Canada has a special programme that they pay for through the GTA.
23:13
Steve Dawson: It's called the Curbside Assistance Program. GTA offers this to all airlines.
23:17
Steve Dawson: And it's run through the same division I have that with the golf cart drivers and
23:21
Steve Dawson: the wheelchair stockers. They do.
23:23
Steve Dawson: So they're wearing the maroon-coloured uniforms.
23:26
Steve Dawson: And they're the ones who do curbside assistance for Air Canada.
23:30
Steve Dawson: So if Air Canada, they'll send us an email. They'll say,
23:32
Steve Dawson: "Hey, we'd like you to pick up this person at this time in this location at this
23:38
Steve Dawson: post" sort of thing. Terminal one, it'd probably be post nine,
23:41
Steve Dawson: post 21, or post 37, for instance.
23:44
Steve Dawson: And now I admit the downflow of information is sometimes inconsistent.
23:49
Steve Dawson: And we're trying to work out some of the
23:52
Steve Dawson: bugs on that, getting a quicker flow of information from Air Canada.
23:57
Steve Dawson: But it's been a great partnership. I think we've really helped them a lot,
24:00
Steve Dawson: improving
24:02
Steve Dawson: their curbside performance. Basically,
24:05
Steve Dawson: on arrivals we're responsible from outside the baggage hall to wherever the
24:09
Steve Dawson: passenger's going. And then for departures, from pickup from wherever,
24:12
Steve Dawson: and bring them right to— they have their own special area at aisle eight there for
24:16
Steve Dawson: passengers
24:18
Steve Dawson: who need mobility assistance, and we take them right there for check-in.
24:21
Steve Dawson: And then Air Canada takes over from that point.
24:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think when I arrived this time, the Air Canada agent was at the door of the plane,
24:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: took me all the way to the exit,
24:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I believe.
24:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think.
24:37
Steve Dawson: And some of their agents prefer to do that rather than hand over
24:40
Steve Dawson: to somebody else [laughs] for a variety of reasons.
24:46
Steve Dawson: Like, yeah, they wanna see the journey through to the end.
24:48
Steve Dawson: And
24:50
Steve Dawson: I'll be generous and say that out of the goodness of their heart,
24:53
Steve Dawson: they've been with you that far, they wanna get you right to the end of your journey.
24:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I agree.
24:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, blind travellers have described flagging their blindness in
25:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: advance, seeing it noted on their ticket,
25:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and still receiving different help on different legs of the same
25:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: trip.
25:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When an airline sends a request to your dispatch,
25:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: what type of information actually reaches you?
25:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Does it tell you that the traveller is blind and would like a guide,
25:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: or only that assistance is needed?
25:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what happens when the booking does not match the person
25:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: who arrives?
25:45
Steve Dawson: Yeah.
25:46
Steve Dawson: All of our airlines provide us with pre-alerts.
25:49
Steve Dawson: Usually the day before they'll say, "Here's the flights that are coming.
25:52
Steve Dawson: Here's the kind of assistance that's needed for this particular flight."
25:55
Steve Dawson: And most airlines are pretty good about if they have a visually impaired passenger,
25:59
Steve Dawson: they put in that SSR code for the passenger.
26:02
Steve Dawson: BLND is the SSR code.
26:05
Steve Dawson: So that we're made aware, hey, this person's visually impaired,
26:07
Steve Dawson: they'll need extra special assistance,
26:09
Steve Dawson: and we're prepared to assist in any way.
26:14
Steve Dawson: Now, there are some airlines
26:19
Steve Dawson: that are perhaps not as forthcoming with the information,
26:22
Steve Dawson: and we're surprised— aircraft arrives and somebody comes out—
26:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
26:26
Steve Dawson: And they have a white cane with them sort of thing.
26:28
Steve Dawson: And my team is trained to recognize, "Oh, well, hang on.
26:30
Steve Dawson: How can I help you best? Do you want some help up the bridge here?
26:33
Steve Dawson: You wanna put your hand on my shoulder? What would work best for you?"
26:37
Steve Dawson: And we go from there.
26:40
Steve Dawson: But yeah, that's a constant struggle, to be honest,
26:44
Steve Dawson: at the airport,
26:45
Steve Dawson: to make sure that the destination here in Toronto is getting the proper information
26:48
Steve Dawson: from the origin airport. And
26:51
Steve Dawson: some airports are very, very good about giving you pre-alert,
26:53
Steve Dawson: "Oh, we had to… We boarded this visually impaired passenger.
26:57
Steve Dawson: She's gonna need assistance when she arrives there."
27:00
Steve Dawson: And
27:01
Steve Dawson: some airlines, WestJet is certainly spectacular at that.
27:04
Steve Dawson: I believe Air Canada is very, very good at that as well.
27:07
Steve Dawson: A lot of the larger carriers.
27:08
Steve Dawson: Some of the smaller carriers struggle a little bit with it.
27:13
Steve Dawson: But for the most part we do get a pre-alert.
27:15
Steve Dawson: But there's certainly times where we have no idea, but that's okay.
27:17
Steve Dawson: All of our agents are trained.
27:20
Steve Dawson: Or if a passenger gets off the aircraft, as an example,
27:24
Steve Dawson: and does not have a white cane, but they'll usually say,
27:26
Steve Dawson: "Yeah, I'm visually impaired. I'll need some extra assistance,"
27:29
Steve Dawson: and my staff know how to handle it from that point on.
27:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've certainly seen a lot of improvement,
27:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and especially so when you land and you have to go through,
27:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it's CBSA and the passport
27:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: marshals. You have to talk with them or whatever.
27:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've seen an improvement from when the agent was hesitant to help
27:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: because they were told that they shouldn't help,
27:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and the CBSA personnel really didn't come up to mark on it.
28:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But now the agents are a lot more…
28:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What's the word I'm looking for?
28:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They know what they're doing, they know how to help,
28:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and they take me right to the passport
28:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: officer, and you get things done. So I've seen great improvement in that area.
28:20
Steve Dawson: Oh, that's great to hear. And from my side and from CBSA side too.
28:25
Steve Dawson: Certainly, it's a key part of working in aviation.
28:30
Steve Dawson: As you know, previously as a manager with Scotiabank,
28:35
Steve Dawson: I was originally trained in disability services then.
28:37
Steve Dawson: And incredibly as, what was that, 20 years ago now,
28:41
Steve Dawson: a lot of that stuck with me [laughs] and I still use it to this day if I'm being
28:44
Steve Dawson: honest.
28:45
Steve Dawson: So I've been very fortunate that way. But yeah, we've worked very,
28:48
Steve Dawson: very hard to refine our training and to improve our training.
28:52
Steve Dawson: And whenever, if we get a complaint from a passenger or an airline,
28:55
Steve Dawson: and the first thing we ask is, "Okay,
28:57
Steve Dawson: what can we do to make sure this doesn't happen again?"
29:00
Steve Dawson: And I'll meet with… We have two training managers,
29:01
Steve Dawson: and I'll meet with them and I'll talk about, okay, how are we training this?
29:04
Steve Dawson: Is there a better way we can do this?
29:06
Steve Dawson: What can we do to make sure that all of our agents are aware of this and are not
29:11
Steve Dawson: doing this down the road?
29:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I've seen definite improvement. Definite, definite.
29:16
Steve Dawson: Yeah. Really glad to hear that. And it's good to know all the blood,
29:20
Steve Dawson: sweat, and tears is paying off.
29:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
29:22
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
29:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, the Canadian Transportation Agency says that one of the
29:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: most common complaints from blind travellers who ask
29:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: for curbside help is being offered a wheelchair
29:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: instead of someone to guide them,
29:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and it advises staff to ask rather than assume.
29:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, when one of your attendants meets a blind traveller,
29:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: what are they taught to say first,
30:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what happens when the traveller declines a wheelchair
30:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and asks to take the attendant's elbow instead?
30:12
Steve Dawson: Yeah, and I think I alluded to this before how when we first started up,
30:16
Steve Dawson: this was a challenge for us. That…
30:18
Steve Dawson: I mean, well,
30:21
Steve Dawson: 99.8% of the passengers we assist require a wheelchair.
30:25
Steve Dawson: So I think by rote, they're grabbing a wheelchair.
30:26
Steve Dawson: But we've managed to train them to understand that,
30:29
Steve Dawson: if you're pre-alerted for a visually impaired passenger
30:33
Steve Dawson: or for that matter, if you see a white cane or a service dog,
30:39
Steve Dawson: the first thing they ask is, "How can I help you best?"
30:42
Steve Dawson: And I always train when I'm talking to new agents,
30:44
Steve Dawson: and so my training managers do the same,
30:46
Steve Dawson: is that these people have travelled before.
30:48
Steve Dawson: It's likely not their first time on an aircraft.
30:50
Steve Dawson: So they can tell you better than you can tell them how to assist them best.
30:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah.
30:54
Steve Dawson: So listen to them and say, "How can I help you?" And listen carefully.
30:58
Steve Dawson: And I still occasionally, full disclosure,
31:01
Steve Dawson: I still occasionally find my guys opening a wheelchair when there's a visually
31:04
Steve Dawson: impaired passenger coming in. I say, "What are you doing?"
31:06
Steve Dawson: [laughs] I said, "Do you remember your training?"
31:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
31:09
Steve Dawson: So
31:10
Steve Dawson: it's a process that has to be managed because as I alluded to,
31:15
Steve Dawson: the number of visual impaired passengers we're handling in comparison to the number
31:18
Steve Dawson: of wheelchair passengers with disabilities that we're handling
31:22
Steve Dawson: is quite small. But you always have to be prepared
31:26
Steve Dawson: to help them.
31:26
Steve Dawson: And we really emphasize that both in our initial training and also our recurring
31:31
Steve Dawson: training every two years as well. They're trained in that as well.
31:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's not an easy task. It really is not. And
31:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess sometimes agents have to use their heads or they have to remember what
31:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: they've been taught. And you know what?
31:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They want to do good and they want to do it
31:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: well, and they're under pressure, too. It's a time constraint.
31:53
Steve Dawson: Absolutely. There's always time pressures. Well, it's aviation.
31:55
Steve Dawson: There's always time pressures, of course. And what's funny,
31:58
Steve Dawson: when we all started in our initial training, for instance,
32:01
Steve Dawson: we're taught how to assist severely disabled people get out of the aircraft,
32:05
Steve Dawson: get into an aisle chair,
32:06
Steve Dawson: or how to get them off the aircraft into their wheelchair using an eagle lift,
32:10
Steve Dawson: for instance. And we're all trained it.
32:11
Steve Dawson: But what I quickly discovered the first couple of years we were doing this is that
32:15
Steve Dawson: people be trained on using an eagle lift,
32:17
Steve Dawson: and then it'd be two years before they use it.
32:18
Steve Dawson: They'd have no idea what they were doing.
32:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Yeah.
32:21
Steve Dawson: So we initiated a programme—
32:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
32:24
Steve Dawson: Passenger transfer specialists, and we have the same
32:28
Steve Dawson: 28 people doing this every day at the airport,
32:30
Steve Dawson: doing the carry offs and carry on passengers using the eagle lift.
32:33
Steve Dawson: And so they're doing it every day,
32:35
Steve Dawson: and we find we've had a much better result that way.
32:38
Steve Dawson: I've looked at coming up if we could have a separate team specifically for visually
32:43
Steve Dawson: impaired passengers,
32:44
Steve Dawson: but we just don't have enough volume in order to justify it at this point to have
32:48
Steve Dawson: a separate
32:50
Steve Dawson: batch. But that's how we handle it for, again, people with
32:55
Steve Dawson: limited or almost no mobility who need assistance entering out of the aircraft.
33:00
Steve Dawson: We decided, we have over 300 agents working for us,
33:04
Steve Dawson: so they're all trained to do it, but they weren't doing it often enough to really—
33:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: To remember.
33:08
Steve Dawson: Retain it. Exactly.
33:11
Steve Dawson: And so with our passenger transfer specialist programme we started three
33:14
Steve Dawson: years ago, four years ago, we were getting much, much better results.
33:18
Steve Dawson: I used to
33:20
Steve Dawson: fairly often get complaints about the assistance in helping such passengers
33:26
Steve Dawson: who need special assistance right off the aircraft,
33:29
Steve Dawson: and now I almost never get complaints about that.
33:31
Steve Dawson: We have a well-trained team now that handles all of them for our company.
33:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wonderful. Wonderful.
33:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When the frontline workers at AAS Canada Core Services
33:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: at Pearson ratified their union agreement in 2022,
33:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the union described them as wheelchair stockers,
33:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: surrey drivers, okay,
34:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: lead hands and curbside wheelchair attendants.
34:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Canada's accessibility rules that assistance
34:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: includes guiding a person who is blind,
34:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: not only pushing a wheelchair.
34:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where does guiding on foot fit into your staffing and
34:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: job description?
34:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What training in sighted guide technique do your attendants
34:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: receive, and are blind people involved in designing or delivering
34:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: that training?
34:43
Steve Dawson: Yeah. I'll break that down a bit. When the union described that as a job,
34:47
Steve Dawson: they were just doing a quick summary.
34:49
Steve Dawson: If you read our collective bargaining agreement for both our divisions,
34:53
Steve Dawson: and under the duties of employees, it says,
34:55
Steve Dawson: "Assist all special needs pax from X to Y,"
34:58
Steve Dawson: sort of thing. All special needs pax,
35:00
Steve Dawson: which implies obviously visually impaired or people with perhaps
35:07
Steve Dawson: a mental disability. We're involved in all of those.
35:11
Steve Dawson: The union summary of it described them as wheelchair stockers,
35:14
Steve Dawson: surrey drivers. We're all very well aware [laughs] that we're here
35:19
Steve Dawson: to assist anybody who needs our help,
35:22
Steve Dawson: has any kind of accessibility concerns.
35:27
Steve Dawson: With regards to our training,
35:29
Steve Dawson: during our initial training and also our recurring training,
35:32
Steve Dawson: all of our agents are required to pass
35:35
Steve Dawson: Transport Canada's
35:37
Steve Dawson: accessibility assistance training, which you're probably familiar with.
35:41
Steve Dawson: It's a seven-module course.
35:43
Steve Dawson: One of the modules is dedicated strictly to visually impaired passengers,
35:47
Steve Dawson: and then they're tested on it, and they have to score 85% in order to work for us.
35:52
Steve Dawson: And so again, they go through retraining. If they don't pass first time,
35:55
Steve Dawson: they go through retraining. They get a second crack at it.
35:58
Steve Dawson: And if they don't pass it by the second attempt, then yeah,
36:00
Steve Dawson: we move them along. We don't keep them with us.
36:03
Steve Dawson: So we do follow the Transport Canada specific training for
36:07
Steve Dawson: mobility assistance, and as you may know, there's seven modules in total,
36:12
Steve Dawson: if memory serves me right,
36:14
Steve Dawson: and I believe it's module four or five that deals with passengers with
36:19
Steve Dawson: visual disabilities.
36:22
Steve Dawson: And I believe there
36:24
Steve Dawson: were, obviously they engaged the—
36:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: CNIB.
36:30
Steve Dawson: At other institutions, other
36:33
Steve Dawson: blind folks, visually impaired folks in designing and delivering that training.
36:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because
36:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: it's common knowledge that
36:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the needs for a vision impaired person are somewhat different from those in a
36:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: wheelchair. One size does not fit all.
36:54
Steve Dawson: And that's what we try to train our staff.
36:57
Steve Dawson: Don't do cookie cutter assistance for any of our passengers.
37:02
Steve Dawson: Not just the visual impaired, but also the wheelchair passengers.
37:04
Steve Dawson: Some people—
37:08
Steve Dawson: we try to train our people to listen more, with some success.
37:11
Steve Dawson: And again, I'm always out on the floor looking around to see what's going on,
37:15
Steve Dawson: and I'm—
37:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
37:16
Steve Dawson: And sometimes I have to correct behaviours [laughs] if I'm being honest,
37:19
Steve Dawson: but my team takes it to heart,
37:21
Steve Dawson: and they certainly wanna do the best job they can to make sure that
37:27
Steve Dawson: the most vulnerable members of our passengers are able to get the assistance
37:31
Steve Dawson: that they need.
37:34
Steve Dawson: Our training's very in depth.
37:36
Steve Dawson: The feedback I get from the 27 airlines I'm assisting is very positive,
37:41
Steve Dawson: and from the GTA as well, if I'm being honest.
37:43
Steve Dawson: They've said that they really like the job we do with assisting people with
37:49
Steve Dawson: disabilities and who need mobility assistance.
37:54
Steve Dawson: But yeah,
37:56
Steve Dawson: it's a really good point in that
38:00
Steve Dawson: if you treat everybody the same, it doesn't work very well.
38:03
Steve Dawson: I even train my managers that way when they're dealing with employees.
38:06
Steve Dawson: Don't do cookie cutter management. Every employee's different,
38:09
Steve Dawson: has different motivators, has different things that
38:12
Steve Dawson: are gonna make them wanna perform at the top of their game sort of thing.
38:15
Steve Dawson: And if you treat everybody the same, you're gonna find
38:19
Steve Dawson: most of the people are not gonna be very happy,
38:20
Steve Dawson: and I think that goes as well when you're
38:24
Steve Dawson: servicing people with disabilities.
38:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like the term cookie cutter.
38:29
Steve Dawson: Cookie cutter.
38:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very—
38:30
Steve Dawson: That's— [laughs] I use that all the time [laughs] when I'm talking to managers,
38:34
Steve Dawson: both
38:35
Steve Dawson: on the service side, but also on the management side as well.
38:37
Steve Dawson: Don't… make sure you know who the people are working for you.
38:41
Steve Dawson: And a lot of people very much need the pat on the head,
38:45
Steve Dawson: you know? And make sure you're catching people doing things right.
38:48
Steve Dawson: When you see a person doing
38:51
Steve Dawson: what we described, Donna, like walking up to a visually impaired passenger,
38:54
Steve Dawson: "Hey, how can I help you best?" "Oh, okay. You wanna put your hand on my shoulder?
38:57
Steve Dawson: Absolutely. Is this pace okay?" I make sure when I see somebody doing that I say,
39:01
Steve Dawson: "Hey, fantastic job. That's exactly the way I would've done it.
39:05
Steve Dawson: Excellent," sort of thing.
39:06
Steve Dawson: And I train my management team to have a positive management style like that.
39:09
Steve Dawson: Obviously we have to correct behaviours and when somebody's doing something wrong,
39:13
Steve Dawson: yes, there's gonna be
39:15
Steve Dawson: disciplinary actions enacted if necessary, if something's egregious enough.
39:20
Steve Dawson: But for the most part we really enact a positive management style with our team,
39:24
Steve Dawson: and it's been very successful so far for us in both our divisions,
39:28
Steve Dawson: to be honest. And
39:29
Steve Dawson: yeah, we're gonna keep doing it that way,
39:32
Steve Dawson: avoiding the cookie cutter management style.
39:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. [laughs] No, I have definitely seen great strides,
39:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I do congratulate you and your team on this, you know?
39:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well done.
39:42
Steve Dawson: Oh, thank you.
39:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well done.
39:44
Steve Dawson: I've been fortunate to hire some very, very good managers who
39:47
Steve Dawson: are carrying the torch for us and carrying my message out onto the floor to make sure
39:52
Steve Dawson: my entry-level employees are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
39:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And especially when you have
40:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: employees whose first language is not English,
40:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: it's even more difficult for them, right?
40:06
Steve Dawson: Absolutely. And one of the great challenges is we have a lot of passengers
40:10
Steve Dawson: who are unable to communicate in English or French.
40:13
Steve Dawson: And that's a massive challenge for us.
40:16
Steve Dawson: And, I mean, by the book, if you wanna go by Transport Canada,
40:20
Steve Dawson: the airport, my company, their lines,
40:22
Steve Dawson: they're not required to provide language assistance to passengers,
40:25
Steve Dawson: but we all wanna provide a good product.
40:27
Steve Dawson: And fortunately I have a lot of multilingual employees working for me.
40:32
Steve Dawson: A lot of my passengers who need accessibility assistance speak Hindi or
40:37
Steve Dawson: Punjabi or Gujarati. And I have plenty of people who speak that language as well,
40:42
Steve Dawson: but I've got a whole raft of different languages that my team speaks,
40:46
Steve Dawson: and we provide language assistance wherever possible.
40:49
Steve Dawson: Again, that's not part of our contracted work with the airlines.
40:52
Steve Dawson: But it's much easier to help somebody with disabilities through customs if you're
40:57
Steve Dawson: able to communicate effectively with them.
41:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Not easy, but—
41:01
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
41:02
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hey, it's getting better. And that—
41:04
Steve Dawson: The challenges are many, Donna, for sure. [laughs] I didn't want to,
41:07
Steve Dawson: I didn't want you to think my job was too easy.
41:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, it's not.
41:10
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
41:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I would not wanna be in your position. I wouldn't.
41:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wouldn't know what to do myself.
41:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But my clock is winding down, and I wanted to ask you this question.
41:20
Steve Dawson: Certainly.
41:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Pearson's accessible drop-off zones in
41:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: terminals one and three
41:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: have tactile walking strips and a phone with large
41:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: print and braille signage alongside
41:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a QR code to request help.
41:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And Pearson says that attendants can also meet travellers
41:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: at parking, the airport hotels,
42:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and the UP Express train.
42:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For a blind traveller who arrives without a smartphone or who is
42:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: dropped at a different door, how do they reach your team,
42:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and how are they told how long they will be waiting?
42:24
Steve Dawson: Okay, now that's an excellent question, 'cause what you allude to,
42:27
Steve Dawson: the
42:28
Steve Dawson: assistance spots, there's three of them in terminal one at the curb,
42:31
Steve Dawson: and there's two more in the departures level at the curb,
42:33
Steve Dawson: and two more as well at terminal three.
42:37
Steve Dawson: But that's an excellent question.
42:38
Steve Dawson: If they forgot their smartphone and suddenly they find themselves not close to
42:42
Steve Dawson: one of these locations,
42:45
Steve Dawson: what's the next step for them? Now,
42:49
Steve Dawson: presumably they've been dropped off.
42:51
Steve Dawson: If they're dropped off by a cab, for instance, all the cab drivers,
42:55
Steve Dawson: as you know, you have to be licensed to bring the cab into Pearson Airport.
42:58
Steve Dawson: In order to have a licence with Pearson Airport, you're trained on saying,
43:02
Steve Dawson: "Here's the locations you drop people who are visually impaired at.
43:05
Steve Dawson: They must be dropped at this location." If it's family who's dropping them,
43:08
Steve Dawson: presumably the family's going to make sure that they're
43:11
Steve Dawson: assisted. Now in the rare cases where they're on their own and they have nobody
43:17
Steve Dawson: with them,
43:18
Steve Dawson: I can imagine the anxiety that would cause for somebody.
43:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Yeah.
43:21
Steve Dawson: You would… they're in a totally foreign location. They don't know where they are.
43:26
Steve Dawson: And yeah, they need to get assistance.
43:28
Steve Dawson: Any airport employee is trained to direct them to the appropriate place,
43:33
Steve Dawson: and I believe any one of our ASP security guards at the curb would assist them to
43:38
Steve Dawson: the nearest location where they could pick up the phone and
43:41
Steve Dawson: arrange for
43:44
Steve Dawson: one of my guys or one of my competitor's guys to meet them at the curb and come and
43:48
Steve Dawson: assist them. And
43:52
Steve Dawson: the phone number that they call, as you probably know,
43:54
Steve Dawson: goes directly to the GTA.
43:55
Steve Dawson: GTA directs them to the appropriate wheelchair service provider
43:59
Steve Dawson: to set up assistance. Now the best way to avoid that,
44:02
Steve Dawson: of course, as I spoke about before is pre-booking your pickup.
44:06
Steve Dawson: And if you pre-book it,
44:08
Steve Dawson: then…
44:10
Steve Dawson: And again, the information's all on the GTA website,
44:12
Steve Dawson: but the Pearson website.
44:15
Steve Dawson: You pre-book it,
44:16
Steve Dawson: and we're required to be there 10 minutes before the pre-booked time,
44:20
Steve Dawson: and we're required to stay there, under our SLA,
44:23
Steve Dawson: for 15 minutes after the pre-booked time, if in case there's any delay.
44:28
Steve Dawson: But
44:30
Steve Dawson: as you know, I believe we've assisted you in this way before.
44:33
Steve Dawson: You've got our duty— you got a phone number, a direct line to one of us,
44:37
Steve Dawson: if in case there's any delay.
44:38
Steve Dawson: Let's say you're delayed getting to the airport or anything,
44:40
Steve Dawson: so we can change the pickup time.
44:43
Steve Dawson: But yeah,
44:45
Steve Dawson: you're right. I would suggest that's a bit of a hole in the system.
44:49
Steve Dawson: If somebody gets dropped off by their family or gets dropped off by somebody in
44:52
Steve Dawson: the wrong location and they're on their own, yeah,
44:57
Steve Dawson: they're in a real anxious moment. But in those cases,
45:04
Steve Dawson: they can call out for help from the nearest airport employee.
45:07
Steve Dawson: There's plenty of security guards at the curb, as an example.
45:11
Steve Dawson: Some of my guys will probably be at the curb,
45:12
Steve Dawson: and somebody will come and assist them and direct them to the nearest pickup point so
45:16
Steve Dawson: we can arrange the pickup. If it's one of my airlines,
45:18
Steve Dawson: then my guys of course will
45:21
Steve Dawson: ask how they can assist them best and take them from there right to where they're
45:25
Steve Dawson: going to.
45:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I remember many, many years ago, and this was, I call it,
45:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: in the stone age of all of this, right?
45:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So I get to the airport. I don't know what to do.
45:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And so my friend directed me to the phone, and I phoned.
45:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Guess who I got? The police.
45:47
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
45:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And they said, "You're phoning the police." I said,
45:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "I want…" And I said which airline I wanted, and they said—
45:54
Steve Dawson: Oh my goodness.
45:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "Uh." I almost died.
45:57
Steve Dawson: It's amazing how far we've come in the last 20, 30 years,
46:00
Steve Dawson: right? And yeah, I remember assisting my niece
46:04
Steve Dawson: at the airport. Just 30 years ago, she lives in Calgary,
46:07
Steve Dawson: so using Calgary Airport and flying to Pearson,
46:11
Steve Dawson: and how much it's changed since then. How much
46:15
Steve Dawson: more robust a service it is now. And it's not perfect yet,
46:19
Steve Dawson: but we're tweaking it where it needs to be tweaked.
46:21
Steve Dawson: But boy, in those days it was archaic. It was, you were—
46:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
46:26
Steve Dawson: In a lot of ways you were left to your own devices.
46:28
Steve Dawson: And it's just a very,
46:30
Steve Dawson: very anxious experience for any passengers in that experience.
46:33
Steve Dawson: Hopefully it's a little less stressful now.
46:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it is,
46:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I think because it is you will have more people travelling because people were
46:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: very, very hesitant to travel before.
46:46
Steve Dawson: Absolutely. And it's funny, and there's two sides to that,
46:49
Steve Dawson: Donna, if I'm being honest.
46:51
Steve Dawson: We assisted a passenger recently
46:54
Steve Dawson: and it was an elderly couple, and they had Alzheimer's.
46:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no.
46:58
Steve Dawson: Now unfortunately the family didn't declare that to us.
47:00
Steve Dawson: They were flying from Africa to London, England to Toronto to Calgary or Edmonton,
47:06
Steve Dawson: somewhere in Alberta.
47:08
Steve Dawson: And we weren't notified, and the airline hadn't been notified,
47:10
Steve Dawson: and so we assisted them to their departure gate at Pearson.
47:14
Steve Dawson: And as soon as we were gone they wandered out of the airport and went for a walk
47:18
Steve Dawson: along Highway 401.
47:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh no. Oh, no, no, no, no.
47:20
Steve Dawson: And we had no idea, and it was, unfortunately
47:25
Steve Dawson: my team
47:26
Steve Dawson: can't restrain people if they decide to leave on their own.
47:30
Steve Dawson: But when we leave somebody at a gate,
47:32
Steve Dawson: we're trained to do a 30-minute check-back, check back every 30 minutes.
47:35
Steve Dawson: "Hey, do you need assistance to the washroom?" Anything like that.
47:39
Steve Dawson: But these people, not long after we dropped them, they wandered off.
47:43
Steve Dawson: And fortunately they were found by the metro police found them.
47:47
Steve Dawson: Brought them back to the airport, and they were rebooked onto the next flight.
47:51
Steve Dawson: So but
47:52
Steve Dawson: yeah, we… Well, my point is we've become so good at assisting people,
47:57
Steve Dawson: there's now an assumption, and certainly in a lot of parts of the world that,
48:00
Steve Dawson: oh, well, we'll bring them to the airport,
48:02
Steve Dawson: and then the airline or the airline's contractor will babysit them right until
48:08
Steve Dawson: it's time to go sort of thing. And
48:10
Steve Dawson: we have to be very careful with that.
48:13
Steve Dawson: Now if we're notified somebody has a mental disability
48:16
Steve Dawson: or need some special attention, absolutely,
48:18
Steve Dawson: we'll stay with them from start to finish and make sure that they're never on their
48:21
Steve Dawson: own.
48:23
Steve Dawson: But some airlines will not even allow passengers— if their family calls us,
48:28
Steve Dawson: "I want to book my grandmother. She has Alzheimer's,
48:30
Steve Dawson: but we're sending her on her own." And they'll say,
48:32
Steve Dawson: "Sir, we won't accept that booking."
48:34
Steve Dawson: And there's some airlines who won't even accept that now.
48:36
Steve Dawson: So as long as we're pre-alerted, we're very good at handling that.
48:39
Steve Dawson: But if we're not pre-alerted, it can end up in a very,
48:41
Steve Dawson: very bad situation for
48:44
Steve Dawson: the passenger and for their families.
48:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Give me your final words of wisdom.
48:50
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
48:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tell me anything. What are you hoping for?
48:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Anything at all. Give our listeners some final words.
49:00
Steve Dawson: Some final word,
49:02
Steve Dawson: I wanna make the experience for passengers with disability as seamless as it's
49:07
Steve Dawson: usually supposed to be for all other passengers.
49:10
Steve Dawson: And we're a long way from there now.
49:12
Steve Dawson: There's a lot of real estate challenges here at Pearson.
49:15
Steve Dawson: There's still a lot of training challenges we've alluded to.
49:19
Steve Dawson: We've come so far, but we're nowhere near the end of the road yet.
49:23
Steve Dawson: We have a lot of improving still to do,
49:24
Steve Dawson: and I'd like to think it's constantly improving.
49:27
Steve Dawson: They're constantly finding new ways to make it better.
49:31
Steve Dawson: Not just as a company, but I'm talking as a community here,
49:34
Steve Dawson: Pearson Airport, the GTA,
49:37
Steve Dawson: the 50-odd airlines who fly in and out of Pearson sort of thing.
49:41
Steve Dawson: And we're always trying to continuously improve it,
49:43
Steve Dawson: under the watchful eye of Transport Canada, of course.
49:46
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
49:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Big Daddy's always watching.
49:49
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
49:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Steve, it has been a pleasure
49:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: talking with you today. I mean, I learned a lot and I've seen so much improvement,
50:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: so I know something good is happening.
50:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wanna congratulate you again on your team,
50:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I look forward to continuing to fly with you guys,
50:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: get your assistance and everything like that.
50:13
Steve Dawson: Well, I truly appreciate that compliment, I really do.
50:16
Steve Dawson: It's good to hear positive feedback to know we're going in the right direction.
50:19
Steve Dawson: And as I alluded to before, we're not at the end of the journey by any stretch,
50:23
Steve Dawson: but we're certainly a lot closer to the finish line than we were before.
50:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes, yes.
50:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And in the coming week I will be reaching out to you to invite you to write a blog,
50:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: editorial, or article.
50:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm gonna be starting a new thing called Breaking Down Barriers to Accessibility,
50:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: so everyone who has been a guest on our podcast will receive an invitation,
50:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I hope you find time to write something small, no matter what it is.
50:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It could be anything.
50:54
Steve Dawson: I'd be proud to,
50:55
Steve Dawson: but be careful when you ask me not to talk too much because that could be—
50:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] I don't care.
50:59
Steve Dawson: That could be a dangerous trap there.
51:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
51:01
Steve Dawson: When someone tells me not to talk too long,
51:03
Steve Dawson: I may have a bad habit of going from 10 minutes to 15 minutes pretty quickly.
51:07
Steve Dawson: [laughs]
51:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, you did very good today. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much again,
51:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I'll be in touch with my next trip very soon.
51:14
Steve Dawson: Okay, look forward to hearing from you, Donna.
51:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Thanks a lot, Steve.
51:18
Steve Dawson: Thank you.
51:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Take care now.
51:20
Steve Dawson: And you as well. Bye-bye now.
51:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
51:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye-bye.
51:25
Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Curb to Cabin Canada with your host,
51:30
Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan.
51:32
Podcast Commentator: Every episode we publish includes a full written transcript so that nothing said
51:37
Podcast Commentator: here sits outside of anyone's reach.
51:41
Podcast Commentator: You'll find it, along with the documents and decisions that we referred to today,
51:46
Podcast Commentator: online at https://donnajodhan.com/3c.
51:52
Podcast Commentator: If you work for an airline, airport,
51:54
Podcast Commentator: or agency along this journey and you'd like to speak for your own part of it,
51:59
Podcast Commentator: Donna would be happy to hear from you.
52:03
Podcast Commentator: The invitation is genuine, the address is on the website,
52:07
Podcast Commentator: and the questions are always sent in advance.
52:11
Podcast Commentator: If this episode was useful to you,
52:13
Podcast Commentator: please pass it along to someone who needs to hear it,
52:17
Podcast Commentator: a fellow traveller, a colleague,
52:20
Podcast Commentator: or the organization that really ought to be listening.
52:24
Podcast Commentator: Wishing you safe and accessible travel across Canada and beyond.
52:29
Podcast Commentator: Until next time. [outro music]