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Jon Friedland: Jiu-Jitsu, Fear and the Practice of Stoicism · The Stoic Handbook with Jon Brooks

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: My guest today is John Friedland.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: He's the founder and head instructor of Neutral Ground Academy and author of Jiu Jitsu Stoic.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are talking about what the mats can teach us about fear, competition, and enjoying the process.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Could you take me back to a time where you felt fear in relation to jujitsu, like on the mats, where you felt hesitation or being genuinely afraid?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm no different than everybody else.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: The first time they come on the mats, you your your ego kind of brings you in.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I kind of got this.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was a soldier, I was tough.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's all we did for fun was wrestling around.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just wasn't very successful at it.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought going to jiu-jitsu school, since I was a tough guy from being in the army, I'd be I'd be all right.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is and I wouldn't say the first day walking in was the hardest, but the second day was.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: And just seeing these tiny little people like monkeys on my back, it just it doesn't take much to close your arteries.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and and realizing that all my toughness I thought I had really just was minimized and getting tangled up like that to the I think that that first day a lot of ego gets shaken out of you a little bit.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have to have that bravery to go back on that second day.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that was I think one of the hardest things to do is go back after such a not to throw that word around, but kind of a traumatic experience.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: You go in, like you just I I have nothing against these people, and so I think that would be one of the first ones where I was just like, man, what am I doing here?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: These guys, this is a whole nother world that I I thought I maybe understood from the outside and had no idea.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And knowing that now, it makes me approach other the how many other things do I know so little about that I think I do, you know?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've brought um some people to Ju J2 for the first day, and I've given them like too much of a nice experience.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've kind of picked out their roles and told everyone to be nice to them, and those people they don't come back.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's most of the people that fall in love with it, in my experience, uh, they kind of have that traumatic experience, and they'll and it shakes them up so much that they're like, I've gotta learn this.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what happened for you?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: It it was, and I remember when the when the Gracies first put their challenges out, way back in the day.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Remember the Gracie in action videos and all that, they they wanted to test the finesse of jujitsu against the best kung fu, karate, you know, taekwondo.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: And most of them, they said, were so turned off by that traumatic experience that they didn't come back.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: But it was the ones that fell in love, like the one example is Chuck Norris.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: They they tied him up quick, and he was the best in the world at what he did for you know karate.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And he took that information, you know, the right the others took the information as this isn't for me, or I'll stick in my lane.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And he took it as, man, I I need to learn this.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he's been in love with it, you know, until his passing.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that's I think you're right with that.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's not whether or not we get the trauma, it's it's how we use it.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, 100%.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just remember having this feeling of like, I'm just not okay sucking at this skill.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm just not okay with it.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just not, I can't go through the rest of my life knowing I suck at this.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's not how such a such a personal and primal skill too.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if all these skills you're trying to acquire in the world, like there's something about your survival that is at stake, I think, if you can't pick up something like this, maybe, maybe on a under under underlying upstream concern.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so about that, you know, I've heard uh I've heard people say, well, you know, I I I have no intention of getting into a street fight, you know, like the the legal issues that come with something like that as well, whether you win or lose.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So people might say, Well, when are you really going to use jujitsu?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like how how useful is it?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that question misses the point.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, could you speak to a little bit about like the benefits of learning and practicing this martial art beyond just being able to win a street fight if you need to?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I I say this all the time too.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Jiu Jitsu, if it doesn't transcend the mats, it's not doing you as much of a service as it should.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Whether or not you choose to be in a fight, a fight may come to you in the physical sense, but you're always in a fight, aren't we?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're just there's there's the fights uh through workmates or or traffic jams, we're always in some kind of fight.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've been in the actual literal fighting world for a bit, all these uh fight type uh life activities are easily managed more so, right?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it you don't have to ever be in a fight, and I think some of the best fighters don't end up fighting because they they have that confidence that that comes along with it and they know they can see it coming a little bit, they can before it happens and they can avoid it in that physical sense, but they're just when you're already used to that struggle and overcoming the obstacles of a struggle in a fight, you can just handle other obstacles, the hard conversations, the the workplace issues, you know.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think whether you ever lay hands on somebody or they're laid on you, we're always in some kind of uh fight, some kind of struggle, aren't we?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, well said.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um when did you first connect stoicism with jujitsu?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: So stoicism and jujitsu, the the connection for me, I I've you know, real passively for the first 10 or so years doing stoicism.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of just the butchered versions of it, but um in the last 10 or 15 years, I really went deep into stoicism and still trying.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in almost 30 years of jujitsu.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: But the connection didn't happen until I had my third degree on my black belt.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it happened because uh, you know, we say at the academy, from white to black belt, it's kind of me, me, me, like how it works for me.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I got long legs, or I'm super flexible, or I'm athletic and I want to compete, or I'm the 90-year-old man here, the stay-at-home mom here.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm working, like, how does it work for just me?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then from black belt to third degree, you start more working on well, how does it work for you?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like other people, other people that don't have these same attributes and temperaments.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: But third degree and beyond, where I am now, I feel like we're trying to find the blanket things that apply to everybody regardless of their intentions and their temperaments and their natural attributes.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the broad strokes of stoicism seems to just nail hit the nail on the head.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: It just the this this overarching philosophy we can negotiate the rest of our life with applies insanely well with jujitsu.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I started seeing the connections like, oh, this maybe this is my key to helping connect everything for all body types and all temperaments beyond just how it would work for you specifically versus me specifically.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: How can it work for all?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think it goes from like me to you to all.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it just that it just I they were two separate studies for me until I had that realization.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And now putting them together just it feels just right.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I had to write the book and try to get those words on paper.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: You don't uh often speak to someone who's been practicing Juju 2 for 30 years.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're a fifth degree black belt at this moment.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just curious what your embodied perception is like when you grapple or when you see people grapple compared to maybe even like 10 years deep, you know, like if you'd been practicing for 10 years, you're already an expert, just some would argue, you know, you've been doing something for 10 years.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: But now, 30 years in, are you seeing things differently?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a different feel?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: What's the experience of the art like for you at this point?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think because it's had a longer timeline, you kind of you can kind of zoom out a little easier.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of getting in in the early years, you're kind of stuck in the weekly ups and downs, monthly ups and downs, even yearly.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the longer you're in it, the more you can see, hey, that's just a season you're in.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or your you know, your first injury that takes you out for a week or two weeks.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like if you've only been training a few months, that's like a third of your time training, and it's just disastrous.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if I had this happen to me forever, I'd be injured for years total.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh with the zoomed out perspective, you can see it's it's just part of it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of it's it's okay, it's easier for you to convince them.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I've been there before.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing that none of these problems you see in your students and and teammates that you haven't seen either in other people or yourself.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's easier to kind of relay the message.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you see it goes from like I guess like weather to season to climate.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're kind of zooming it out, you can kind of see the big a little bit easier.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's but but then that the the real trick is how do you convince them of that?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of people, you know, when they're a little bit younger in the game, they're like, well, of course, you're saying that you're almost 30 years of jujitsu.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but but I wasn't always, you know.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so I think it gives you a nice perspective that that kind of zoomed out view from above, if you'd say.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was thinking the view from above is yeah, kind of present there too.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: In your book, you you say that jujitsu like doesn't automatically just make you a better person, you know, just like, oh, do jujitsu guaranteed to be a better person.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: So what would you say has to happen for us to change?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I think you have to be proactive with it.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I say in there too, it's it's not even a it's not even a way to get fit.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's a tool you could use.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you see lots of people, and it's kind of ironic that some people they it's the in the early years of Jesus, this is the best workout I've ever had.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And as they get more efficient, they they'll start to gain weight.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're they don't they don't have to exert themselves as much.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have to be constantly proactive and and working on your objectives.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just granted, you you'll never get anywhere if you don't show up, but it takes more than just showing up to get the gains you're looking for.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: If and it it and a lot of people say it smashes your ego.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, not necessarily, right?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Some people, I've seen black belts have a bigger ego sometimes, and then it almost it almost grows.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And they because they're not they're not picking, they're not picking the weeds before they harvest.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're just these these these ego weeds grow inside of them.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's not necessarily a fitness regimen, it's not necessarily a meditation or a way to get uh or or even a social circle.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: It it is if you use it, it's just a tool, right?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like a it's a workshop.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: You go into this workshop and you have all these beautiful tools, you have to make the conscious choice to use them how you see fit.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And again, for just you in the beginning, and how can I use these tools for someone else later on, and how can I use the overarching principles for all?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love those points because uh I've that's something I've realized recently.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm about eight years deep, and I I realized that I'm I'm less fit now because at the beginning everything required full effort, and now I'm able to take little breaks, and I'm I'm I've developed a style to not exert much energy.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, how am I gonna get fitter from not expending as much energy?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was just like one of those realizations was like, okay, I need to fix that, and what you said as well about ego kind of little ego weeds growing as you go through the belt levels or just more experience.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how can you help someone like that?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like someone who's maybe they started off as a white belt and then they you know their ego got destroyed, let's just say, but then over time they started to develop a sense of entitlement, feeling like they know what's up and their ego starts to grow, and now they have this like uh like brown belt or black belt to show, like, well, I I I'm entitled to my big ego.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm clearly better than so many people, you know, in this context.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: How can you help someone like that as a coach?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a tough one.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a tough one because like you can you can walk a horse to water but can't make them drink, and it's I think the I think there's several strategies you could probably use to help them directly, but I think the biggest is example, right?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a classic thing around here, like you could tell someone's got their purple belt when they stop doing warmups, you know.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know what I mean?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: They just they come in, they have the belt over their shoulder.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's a classic.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: But um, like if you're the leader of the class, like do everything that you would hope they would do.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is the strongest thing is they people don't always listen, but they're always watching.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I try to I try to almost if I know somebody's having problems, I try to almost extra show off that attribute I'm expecting from them in myself and the other coaches.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's just extra show it off a little bit, not show off, but you know what I mean.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like really just set show the example in a very obvious way, and then sometimes I'll have conversations out loud that are in my head, like, well, I really shouldn't do this, but I will.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: So they always they can almost hear the conversation that they're changing their mind on if they have the same conversation that I'm not.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm going to do the warm-ups and I'm not gonna take a break right now just because I'm a little bit winded.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna, you know, you say these little almost like more of a flanking intervention than a dead-on, like, hey, you you're looking like a turd right now, you know.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the example is the best form.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: 100%, yeah.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's a the yeah, I think Mark Sorelius mentions one of his teachers at the beginning of meditations.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: If someone made a mistake in front of him, instead of correcting them directly, he would just do the correct thing in front of them, um, as like a polite way to kind of show them by example how to do something.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um this is just me being curious, but uh there's a debate sometimes with jujitsu practitioners about what determines a belt promotion.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Some people it's like attitude showing up, other people it's like can you beat the same belt level, or you know, other people's gold medals in competition, or like how some knowledge is another one.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: What what is your criterion for promotion?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so yeah, like you mentioned it.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Some some academies, like that's how you get your rank, is you basically if you want a blue belt, start beating the blue belts.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: You want purple belt, start beating the purple belts, or certain number of competitions, and there's another side too where hey, you've been here, you've been putting your time in, certain number of classes or or what whatever they decide.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think uh those are both techniques to get you where I would prefer to be, which is a little bit more artistic of it, like where your development of the actual jujitsu wisdom.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: If that takes competition for you, if that takes a certain number of classes, that that's alright too.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: But looking at it each individual and how closely they can get with their personal potential, you know, you gotta judge, you gotta judge a 90-year-old man differently than you know, than a competitor.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: But they're if they're both gaining the the wisdom that jujitsu can provide in the best of their personal potential, I think that's how they move up.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I like to try to look at it.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: I look at it less of a combat sport and more of like an art studio.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: I try to curate it like a like an art curator.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I always tell the students, you know, we come in and we'll show you that red and blue makes purple, but what you do with purple, we want to see it at the best you can do with your purple of any kind, it could be pottery, it could be painting, how you self-express to your what we feel is your biggest potential in gaining that jujitsu wisdom.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a lot harder than just checking off certain number of techniques from like a test or uh you know, uh attendance or medals around their neck.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: So really it's just how they progress in their artistic development.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's so cool.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's so cool.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: I actually didn't think about it like that, like self-expression, artistry, uh expression of wisdom through technique and movement.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, that's that's more of like a uh almost like some kind of dialogue that you have with a student, you kind of figure things out together and and sort of like almost like it's not this just like objective, like here you are.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like uh an art teacher helping an art student and getting a feel for where they're at, and then like when they feel ready, they kind of give the promotion.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: That feels a lot more, yeah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: That feels better.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it and I found in my in using that method, when people get whatever promotion they get, they you're always sprinkled in a little imposter syndrome, right?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like people are like, oh no, I'm not ready, but they really do feel good about it.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're like I they whereas I've seen other other ways where in other methods where they feel like oh I got it too early, or I should have had this two years ago.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: The the connection I have with my teammates, I I take pride in that we we come to it together and it's a mutually shared satisfaction of whatever rank they're getting.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it it's just a little bit harder on my end to to judge like that.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's it seems like woo-woo or ambiguous to other met compared to other methods, but it seems to work out well, and and mostly it keeps them on the mats, and longevity is the key to developing anything, and and I'll I'll stand by that one.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: So uh on a personal level, I'm starting to uh I've I've had a few competition sprinkled here and there, but it it it was a few years since I've competed last, but I've just started competing again semi-regularly.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And mainly because two reasons.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that booking a competition kind of helps me be focused and kind of gives me motivation to make sure like I'm showing up to the gym, I'm training, and my diet is fine.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and also just the kind of stoic side of competing and you know the challenge that competition brings compared to the comfort sometimes of just training with your friends.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what what needs to change in a person's mindset when they go from training to competition?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, well, first off, on the the training setting, I love the I'm setting an objective because of who you become on the way to the objective.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like I I I need to I need to train, you know, let's say your goal is twice a week.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I just if I have a competition in December, I'm I'm gonna make it happen.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I always emphasize to this to the students too, it even if they cancel that uh entire event that day or no one shows up in your division, the only part that was in your control was who you became on the way there.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes we choose our objectives thinking it's that metal we want around our neck, but really I think there's a that should represent like who we become on the way there, and I think so.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then to your second point, uh I think you know, when you're training, you said you know, we're way more comfortable, we know these people, we kind of know each other's games, and there's there's some like mutual respect there.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Out there, they're a little bit more I'm gonna I'm gonna kill you, you're gonna kill me.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: I always say on the mats, we train to learn, not to win.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: In competition, we train to win, not to learn.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of times we we we mix the two.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people in the dojo, they're always trying to win, and it and because of that, they stifle their growth because they're not open to learn as much because they just gotta win.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta get to this round.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then the flip side, people go into competition, like, oh, I want to see what he has to offer, I wanna, I wanna let's have this exchange, and then they they end up getting overrun by somebody that has different ambitions.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I don't mean you don't learn from competition, but I don't think you should be learning on right there.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: You take that data home, take that information you you gather, um, and then bring it back to the mats where again train to learn, compete to win, and don't mix those.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I suppose you could apply the same thing to stoic practice as well.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of this when when we're reading stoic text or practicing, we're we're learning, and then in when life is happening to us, that's when we uh we try to win, you know, we try to apply to the best of our abilities the lessons that we've been learning in easy situations.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's such an overlap.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, it I like it.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're so well read on this.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, don't you feel like you live half of your life also in Rome?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like I'll I'll have it, I'll have an instance, I'll be out and about, and I'll be uh dealing with some kind of social setting.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: I just picture it happening in Rome, like like Seneca mentions the dropping of the weights in the in the cup in the gym and all that.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like just if you spend enough time with these guys, like it's almost like they speak into you from 2,000 years ago it while you're in the moment there because you because you spend so much time reading on it, you have the discipline to read about it when it doesn't apply.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but of course, the Applies when the when the moment matters.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I I noticed when I uh so Sunday just gone, I went to a competition, uh it was just one match, and uh I noticed I felt fine, and then I got to the venue and did my weigh in and things, and the sort of anticipatory anxiety started to come in, you know.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: You sort of like get the feeling, you there's like a there's a vibe in the air, like a competition vibe.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I was just analyzing it, you know, as someone who's interested in stoicism and like noticing what's going on in my body and figuring out how do I navigate this?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's not something you typically feel on a day-to-day basis, right?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you're putting yourself there voluntarily, so no one's making you be there, and you still have to kind of ride out the these emotions.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I'm I'm just curious what what was your kind of go-to and how do you coach people to navigate adrenaline nerves and things like that?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I so I I try to remind them and myself too, because I go through it as well, where the same, those same chemicals that are making you nervous and and afraid and uncomfortable, those those same like actual chemicals running through your body are the same ones you you get uh as a little kid Christmas morning or you know meeting your girl or or or or holding a like it's it's it's the same chemicals, it's just our interpretations of them, right?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm scared, but maybe if we reframe the words like I'm scared or I'm nervous into I'm excited, I can't believe I'm here.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is great.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to show my opponent what I'm gonna try to impose.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like we if we turn the nervosa into excitement, kind of try to work on reframing it, I think that's that's the key.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's easier said than done.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: But like I wait, wait a minute, like you said, I I'm I I I paid to be here, I worked to be here.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see what I'm made of here and leave the rest of the fate.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like I like I don't care if I win or lose, I just really I'm here and like turn it into that excitement.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: It make it like I'm excited, like like you're about to go on a roller coaster.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same chemicals in us.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: So why are we interpreting why are we the question we should be asking is like why are we interpreting this as bad feelings when we really could just twist them into good ones?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, love that.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you it's the same emotions as excitement that you might have on Christmas morning, but you're reframing it unconsciously into I'm afraid, and you can just take that back, yeah.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with a bit of effort and remember that it's actually like the feeling of being excited and alive.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there's a good book about this too.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh Josh Whiteskin, The Art of Learning.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he he was he worked with uh Marcelo Garcia for I think he became a black belt himself, but he used to be a Thai cheat master, and he had this like pre-tournament ritual he would do.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was like 10 steps or something, and it would take him like 20 or 30 minutes, but he kept rehearsing it and rehearsing it.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And he gives a story in the in in the book where he's competing in like Taiwan or somewhere, and at the last minute, they're they're they're saying, Oh, you're on in two minutes, but he doesn't have 20 or 30 minutes to have his his nice little pre-fight ritual, his his breathing, his meditations.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: But he was able because he practices so much to condense it into two minutes, and he was able to get that and overcome.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's a great book on on because he gives little jujitsu references too, but Tai Chi and uh like business advice and all that too.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: But The Art of Learning, it's a great book, and he just talks about turn like the more you have that ritual placed in front of you beforehand, the more you're you're set.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Then I'm I can go compete now, and and and the more it's burned into you, the quicker you can just turn it on, turn it on instead of having a yeah.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that was I I was inspired by that book.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I haven't actually read that.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've listened to the Josh Talk on podcast, but I'm gonna give that book a read as well.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good uh so there's something that's unique about jujitsu as I'm thinking about it now as you're speaking to me.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So in ordinary life, we can have stress, like you said earlier, we're always in a fight of some kind, you know, you could have relationship stress, parenting stress, work stress, like all of these things can happen, health issues.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: But what is uh particularly interesting about jujitsu is that you can be physically exhausted, you know, like your heart rate is maxed out, and that's its own kind of feeling while you're under a different kind of pressure and you have to problem solve as well.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the it there's the a physical uh mix of stress that is both psychological and physical.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, most people when they're like dealing with work stress, they're not they don't have a heart rate of 190 at the time, right?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: That that's happening.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's like all closing in on you, you can't breathe sometimes.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that to me is the most terrifying part of jujitsu.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's not getting tapped out, that's just like, okay, well done, you you're better than me, or you you did a really good submission, great.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's the feeling of being exhausted, running out of air, and not having an escape.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's that's the worst part.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like a every class is a near-death experience.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we do this on purpose.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I but I think I think when you when all that is on top of you, when you are in that social situation that's not as physical and and borderline life-threatening, um it can almost be of comfort.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this person's not mounting me, they don't have my back.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Let me negotiate.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Let me use the resources I'd be using out of that I would be wasting in the physical.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let me use them to negotiate in a more calm way.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um in uh Stoicism, I have never come across anything that talks about, and I know a lot of the the ancient philosophers were very active people, um wrestlers and boxers and um just very physical people trained in gymnasiums.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what how how do you as a practitioner of Stoicism deal with that feeling of like gassing out or the feeling of like having nothing left physically?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's hard to kind of step by step manage impressions and judgments in the mo in a moment like that.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: What what do you go to there?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: I try to be proud that I let myself get that far.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I really do try to, especially since uh you and I, we both have some more tools than most of the people that are rolling, so we have more options, and we can either take the easy route and kind of conserve ourselves, or like I I have a practice almost mass uh practice of like out now that I have all these skills, instead of using them to make myself more comfortable, I'll put my I'll make this more uncomfortable and more uncomfortable and see how redlined I can get my heart rate and see if I can give myself even more anxiety, and then see if I can crawl my way out, and half the time I don't.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I get caught because I go all these hell holes, but then but then the times I get out, I'm like, oh wow, I can't believe I got out of that.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I would never have that comfort in discomfort resilience if I didn't constantly go into it.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: I they always say, like a, or around here they say, you know, a purple belt against a black belt.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you go into that purple belt's A game, it's a coin toss.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so I always encourage the higher ranking people to go into the A games of others, not only because it helps you and and and tech sharpens their A game, but it also helps you in getting out of it.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: But most more than likely it's gonna redline your heart rate as well and give you a bigger thrill than you would have if you were just trying to smash them.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you you when you do get to that level, you uh see you kind of take pride in it, you know, that you have allowed yourself to go there instead of taking it the easy route to conserve energy.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, because I think I think part of the part of the fitness like evolution as we're you know, you you train more so that you get less tired.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so you you you get in better shape, so it's harder for you to get tired.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's that second part too that that I I give more respect for is well, what am I gonna do now that I am tired?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so the it like and then the more you spend it, that that that red lined this I'm at the end, I'm gonna pass out.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think you get more comfortable there.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you see people as soon as they get even the slightest bit tired, it's it's slightly uncomfortable, uh, and then they slowly take they take a lot of breaks, uh, you know, to make sure that they're still comfortable.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my suggestion is to stay out there just a little bit more, even if it's 10 10 seconds longer in the beginning or 10 rounds later in the end, go further than you think you can because like I said, one, you'll get in better shape because you're getting more activity, but two, you'll you'll be every class, you're at some point of discomfort that you had when you were just a new white belt and everything was uncomfortable.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can still have that that that rush and that feeling and and that that that grit that we need, not just on the mats, but in life too.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: We we have to we have to embrace the suck, as they say in the military.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like we need to be there when we're worn out and be like, let's go, take me out.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm still alive.
• 32:18
  unknown: Yeah.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: So is is it almost like I think you mentioned something like this in the book, is you know, the idea of pre-meditating, kind of uh like experiencing something when you're in learning mode, so that later on it doesn't ambush you or doesn't feel too difficult later on.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: In the training room, allowing yourself to go to these dark places is a form of almost physical premeditation, like voluntary discomfort.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that in yes, and I so that it doesn't shock you when it does happen on the mats or off.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: We we don't want to we don't want our first time being tired or exhausted or ambushed to be when we need it most.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: We can voluntarily put ourselves in these situations where oh my I'm vulnerable and and I'm I'm scared on the mats, where it's technically you know in a safe environment, but like we said before, the feelings are still the same.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in deep trouble here, I'm gonna die.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm overwhelmed.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Those same chemicals running through us and the same attributes needed to get through it in class can happen off the mats everywhere.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: We're just we're just used to, oh, this this is this sucks.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: But now what?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I I gotta get rid of this, this um, you know, test my impressions, I gotta get rid of this.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Does this really suck?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or is this just information I can use right now?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is just turn that frustration more into information.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you can only do that clearly if you're not overwhelmed by it, and you won't be overwhelmed by it if you practice it consistently.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say is the the ideal attitude of a student when they show up to training in terms of um so there's the there's the watching and drilling technique, so like the things to be thinking and paying attention to there, and then also the sparring side of things.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like one school of thought would be choose the hardest rounds you can, they'll make you tougher.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Another school of thought might be well, you need to practice things you're not good at on maybe less resistance.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what would you say is the right mindset for these things in class?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it depends what you're working on, and you know, the answer the further along we get in jiu-jitsu is always depends, right?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: But in general, I would say, you know, walk down the piano keys, like go with some really brand new people that aren't even gonna give you, if you're only rolling with brand new people, they're not gonna give you proper tech, you know, technical cues to do the moves you want to be working on in the middle.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're always going with the real tough guys, you're not even they're not even gonna present them to you in a way that you can handle.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have your peers where it's it's uh which is where I think most people tend to stick with.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: There could be a class of 40 people on the mats for four months, and the same people will roll with the same four or five people the whole time.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I try to I try to separate people, like go go explore.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: There is a benefit to rolling with the same people over and over again because you get to see the same paths and repetitive information gathering, and you can evolve, but the a whole class, you get the diversity.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: You may not get the repetition, but you get the diversity.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: You got the big monster over here, the uh the flexible person over here, experience, inexperience.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I I like the idea of uh traveling all the real estate in the in the dojo.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like just get with everybody because everybody's got something they can teach you, and you have something you can teach them.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's important to you know, but if your objectives are different, let's say you have a competition coming up, I would if it was me, I would stick with people at my level and at my weight exclusively for a few weeks leading up to it.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and just I I need the best version of myself at about my weight with people about my experience.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: But if you know, sometimes but also when you're leading up to a competition, you're focusing less on learning, right?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's more about winning.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to get so you're not gonna learn very fast doing that, but you're gonna consolidate what you know so you can put it to the test against somebody that's never been inoculated to your techniques yet.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but then, but then you get then when you come back and you're back in the learning phase, whatever you learned in in combat or at the tournament, bring that back to the lesser belts, maybe, so you can kind of impose your way and make more mistakes and still get some success and some feedback, and then throttle back and forth, just go back and forth between the lowest ranks, the highest ranks, the big guys, the little guys.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good general rule.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, that's really helpful actually for me as well.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that makes that makes sense.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's something I'm gonna be implementing.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: Can we talk a little bit about the idea of winning and losing?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because that shows up all the time.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like even in training, there's like you know, there's sometimes this feeling of winning around or losing around, and in competition it's there.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: A part of me feels like I don't know the the the healthy stoic approach, the wise approach to navigating winning and losing, because there's an unhealthy version of it, right?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's like, I want to win at all costs, I want to be the best.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is that almost like an ego inflation there?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I want other people to lose, I want to smash them, you know, I want them to be like so.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't quite like that, but I'm wondering what what's like the healthy, wholesome version of winning or aiming to win?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think we should as you know, in a competition, you never have the privilege of raising your hand or your opponent's hand in victory.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's always raised by somebody else.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: The referee picks it for you.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we can't control that.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we can't put our our wants in in the winning or the fears in the losing.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: We have to choose our success on how we perform.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to have my best fight.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: I want uh with the with the objective of winning, but with no attachment to it.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're aiming for it, but like who we become leading up to it, like in the either in the training before the tournament, but who we are in the in the moments of the fight.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I I mentioned in the book the Spartans were losers.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the word nobody remembers them thousands of years later because they won.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: They they all lost, but because of how they carried themselves in battle, and even before battle, how they trained leading up to it, we're still talking about them like heroes.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: But so there was no they they and they knew they couldn't win, but they did it anyway.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: The way they carried themselves in battle, that's what we need to judge ourselves on, I think, is how we carry ourselves, which is in our control.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: All the training leading up to it, the discipline it took to show up every day and work what work our games, once once the slap bump in the tournament happened, how we performed during the actual act, win or lose, you could be really proud of yourself that way in a horrific loss, and you could be disappointed in yourself in a in a victory.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: But because of how because that on what you control, right?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if we're gonna attach our feelings of pride to anything, it should be to our performance, not our outcomes.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yes.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you're linking that to the dichotomy of control.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: You're asking like I'm gonna judge my criteria for success and winning on how I show up to this and the person that I am in the moment.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: A friend is that it's simpler.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Simpler, yes.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's far simpler.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: A friend of mine recently shared a quote, he said that um there's no uh there's great honor in a failed attempt, but there's no honor in no attempt.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, I love that.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this this it kind of links to what your your point here, you know.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you can find honor even if you don't succeed, and you can also find dishonour in like maybe just stalling for the whole match, just to get that one advantage point so that you can have your hand raised.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say are the uh the biggest ways that stoicism shows up in Jujutsu for you?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like any particular patterns?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um like what what ways does it show up the most?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, all of them, but no, I would say so for me when I'm personally rolling, so uh so there's me as the as the fellow student, and then there's me as the teacher, but when I'm rolling as a student, I'll get caught somewhere and I'm just stuck, and I'm just getting smashed, and I can't find a way out, and I'm getting frustrated, and I'm like, man, what should I do?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: What should I do?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're asking, like, I gotta get out of this, this sucks.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: And what I do, and partially because I've coached before and I stand over, and I I do have, like we mentioned before, that view from above.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: I say to myself, what advice would I give someone else in my shoes right now?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then I just take that advice.
• 41:08
  unknown: Wow.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's like when you remove yourself from the picture, you can see the whole picture.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't see yourself in the picture when you're still in the frame.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I I what in the same way I zoom out and I look at, I give them a little clue on how to get out of something, I just try to do the same thing to myself.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like just I try to take the view from above of myself in the moment, and it's always something so simple.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because when I'm when I'm in the emotional state of I gotta get out of this, I gotta get out of this, and my my arms are all tied up.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody else, a bystander, would say, Well, just use your legs, dummy.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I'm like, Oh my god.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then so I I I I'll tell myself, and it that's some of the best advice is like take the advice you would give somebody else, and just by doing that, you're already kind of practicing that view from above, and that that comes out all the time in Grappling for me.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing I've never thought about ever doing that.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: That makes so much sense.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: What would someone else say?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I hope you put that in your pocket because it's it's uh it's it's mind-changing because it that also applies off the mats too.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: But just while you're there, it's like, okay, if my buddy who is let's let's say they're much less ranked from me, you would tell them something so simple, you were trying to, you were overcomplicating things, you're more experienced, you were doing all this.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's just simple bystand.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's not even the technical knowledge you need, you just need the removal from being under the immediate situation to see clearer.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you do put that in your pocket.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, 100% will.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and one of the things uh you see in Jiu Jitsu grappling is like uh almost like a slogging match between two people that are hammering away at this at a move, almost like a tug of war, when there are all of these other options available, but they've just like locked horns with their opponent, and they just what they both try in this one move.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it kind of uh it's it's a like it's like an unhealthy form of tunnel vision, right?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: What you're saying kind of would break the spell for one of those people at least.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is yeah, when when there's nothing more indefensible than somebody defending in one direction.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: So to the push-pull, there's there's there automatically, let's say, let's say I'm trying to arm bar you and you have your hands gripped to try to you have a the one arm trying to protect the the endangered arm.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever grip you choose, it is the strongest you can get from that moment.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: So why would I go towards the strong?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's an argument you said I can strengthen my argument, you know, strengthen and just try to break your grip with just pure force, but there's also a much better argument to flanking somehow.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I can keep you pinned down with maximal defensive force, saving your arm.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you can you're still using everything you got to keep yourself as strong as you can in that one initial direction that I threatened you with.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you have no forces to divert, and then I can try to flank you.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Back to the armbar example.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: What if I turn the angle of it?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: What if I turn north or south, try to pull on your arm instead of straight on?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or what if in total defense of your arm, your neck is wide open?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: I need to be able to see not just the tug of war, like you mentioned, or the locking of horns.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: I need to be able to see, I need to think clearly beyond that just that little battle.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Where can I flank?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Where can I get behind you?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes, that new uh trickery where I'm trying to sneak around you, your paranoia of that will leave your defenses to the very first attack wide open.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: I can get that again.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: But with that that tug of war, it's just you don't even feel good if you get it.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: What let's say I do get, I just like that went to work on a bodybuilder, and I certainly and it I have a rule of thumb too.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't do anything, I do I shouldn't do anything to you that I wouldn't do to uh a 90-year-old woman on the mats.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or my teacher, Pedro Sauer, says, you wouldn't do that to your daughter, would you?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like your 10-year-old daughter.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you like like so if I'm gonna sit a yank on your arm to get it out like that, would I do that to the the somebody frail?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: I should find a technical way, a a wiser way to to just sneak in and just gently go for the neck, maybe, or or or threaten your back or something.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: But just that, yeah, that I don't like that tug of war either.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's just yeah, it's it's stagnant and it's I like motion.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: We we we judge a car by how it drives, not how it parks.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're just grinding back and forth like that, I want I want motion because that's where that's where the action and the and the the the grace comes from, I think.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, that's so cool.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like would you you wouldn't do that with your daughter and you're ruled about being able to do it around a 90-year-old.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so sometimes when people come into training and they're they're very like strong, they're like bodybuilders, they sometimes have a hard time learning because when the minute they get stuck, they just start seeing training as like another bench press session or something, you know?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: They kind of they brace themselves, they take a deep breath, and they just um and it's like sometimes it works, like let's be real.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes the a big push at the right moment kind of works depending on the level they're up against, and so they keep doing it.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how can you get someone out of that?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because obviously, I I completely I don't see the value in that, but if someone's in that, how how can you get them out of it?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: So uh and right now we're talking to the bodybuilder, yeah.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, I think almost back to the other, like would you would you do that to like would that work on somebody twice your size?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: And also, would you do that to my daughter?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're here to develop skills to make your strength even stronger, not just the strength to make it uh victorious today.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: You try to play the long game.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: You and also I I I give the warning too to big guys, and this is a kind of a shocker to them, is that they're the ones I'm most concerned for injury with, not necessarily because they're gonna injure themselves, which they will if they keep doing improper techniques, right?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: But if a little person, uh a much weaker person can get them in an arm lock, uh all of their strength is is is you know, we're not attacking the strong guy's strengths, we're attacking their weaknesses, right?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're just the little capsules in the elbow or the the connective tissue in the shoulder.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: I they need to have some small people remind them of that, it like to show them physically, to know that yeah, that's my that's my bigger fear of them.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: Not so much because a lot of times just muscling and muscling and muscling they'll they'll figure out just doesn't work eventually.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: At some point you're gonna get wrapped up, you're gonna have to evolve.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're your your growth is gonna stagnate, you're gonna have to evolve.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: But if you can have if they don't, they they're gonna try to use that same strength that they it worked to bench press you off of them or me off of them, and they're gonna try it to somebody that's gonna attack them with such ferocity on such a weak part of their body, they get I I see more big people getting hurt than than the small people that come in because they're insistence on things, they're constant, they're they're married to everything they do, and it's all or nothing instead of like a little bit more path least resistant.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: So uh if I was coaching the big guy, I'd I'd say back to the like would you would you do that to uh uh my daughter?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, would you do it to the old man sitting over there?
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like that may you may really hurt them.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Find a clean way.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we always say if it's not clean, it's mean.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like make find it should look you try to make it look so so good and so effortless that it looks like we choreographed it.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah you know, I if if it looks like you're just and also if somebody on the street were to see uh a big you bench press a little me, that just makes sense.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's no jujitsu there, that just makes sense in the world.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: Big guy throws little guy.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do do what is impressive, show a big guy, move like a little guy in a nice little slick way, show grace.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: You already got the lion in you.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's grace out the lion a little bit and try to like help us like pet them, calm them down, you know.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was lucky enough right when I started Juju 2, there was one guy at my gym that was like very, very good, and like like the the people that I was I thought was terrifying, like monsters, he was just playing with them in a very like chill way.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: He almost looked bored, just like floating around them, and they were like struggling and freaking out, and I was like, that is the goal, like that that to me is what jujitsu looks like.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a struggle, I'm not that interested, you know.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: If everything's a huge struggle, yeah.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Show me because you know, we're not big guys, like show me something I can relate to or aspire to because I I relate to being little like you, but to you wrap up big guys like that, I want that.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's nice.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to visualize.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm the big guy, I can throw these little guys around, but to see the David versus the Goliath, we all pick David.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, yeah.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you've been doing jujitsu, as you said, for 30 years.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: How do you keep things fresh and how do you keep how do you keep enjoying it and keep things fun after all this time?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: I it only gets more fun for me.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like the I think the longer one of the benefits of doing it for a long time is uh it jujitsu comes to you a little bit more often than the early days where you have to go to jujitsu.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we have people from all over that come and they're like, hey, what do you think of this?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think of this?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh man, I I like that, I like that.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: And they give me additions to my own game as I try to sort out theirs.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: I try to help help improve whatever they're working on.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: I maybe I've never seen it before, it's got some new fancy name, but I can usually relate it to something a little bit more older, put them together, tweak them a little bit, and as I do that, that's really exciting for me.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, not so much in the beginning, it was all handling my problems.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta do this, I gotta do that.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's I get such joy in handling their problems, which synergistically helps improve my game as well.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so it's just it's really exciting.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a season of just awesome growth coming to me.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I don't have to chase, it comes to me a little bit more.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I still go off to places when I can, but it's a real blessing when it comes to me.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then because I have a little bit of a higher rank, even if I don't know what the hell they're talking about, because they got some new age thing going on, they will still come to me.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because I because I have a rank, and I'm like, oh, I I don't have an opinion on that yet.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's work on it.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so it it reminds me why the longer you have a black belt, the more it starts to turn white along the edges.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's a white belt inside, we are always a white belt, and that's my favorite part about a white belt that's getting aged, is it starts to turn white again.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a really beautifully symbolic message to all black belts to one, keep their egos in check, but two, keep them learning as if they were a white belt.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I I can't I can't keep up with these guys.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very challenging to keep up with all the stimulation coming from all over, especially so like almost 30 years ago.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: You we didn't see anything online.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: We had to go travel to find anybody, not even necessarily that they had any skill, but they were willing to fight on a carpet somewhere.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: But fast forward three decades almost, it's just everywhere.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: People bring me videos and show me videos of this, this, or how they did their performance.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, this is sensory overload, and I love it.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very fresh for me.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: Every every week is a new thing.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: One of my uh so the reason I started Jujutu is before I ever started Juju 2 or knew anything about it.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I I was going through a bit of a a bit of a difficult period where I kind of just felt a bit aimless, and I I was I thought, what are some really crazy goals?
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I wrote down a black belt in Brazil Juju 2.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know anything about Juju 2, but I just knew it was this really hard thing that took many years.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I didn't go to a uh a a dojo for months, but I remember writing that down.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, that's that to me is exciting, like this really difficult goal.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then as the years have progressed, one of my new goals is when I become a black belt, faith permitting, I don't want to lose the kind of eager curiosity to learn that I had as a white belt, blue belt, purple belt.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to just kind of rest on my laurels and just be like, right, I've done it now, I've completed it, I'm a black belt.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: And just to keep it fresh, that that excites me, that goal, because I think that there's uh there's a trap, right, in like feeling like you've you've completed something and you have nothing left left to learn.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do you agree with that?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I do 100%.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh there's a there's some sad cases I know where people did get their black belt and their their ego is never checked along the way, either by themselves or others, and they end up for the at least for a long quitting.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like how would you how would you but and I think part of that is because they didn't find a way to make it bigger than the belt, and they didn't find a way to have jujitsu transcend the mats in other parts of their life.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's one of those you're you're not just learning how to fight, you're learning how to be you.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like the amount of time and effort it takes to get your black belt, it it's changed you as a person, or in it, or it should, right?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just a belt.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: You can order a belt for$20 online.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know that a belt is easy, but it's what it symbolizes, and your your job once you get your black belt, so you're you're pretty close to your black belt.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's very cool.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so like the closer you I wouldn't sorry, uh no, I I'm not pretty close to my black belt.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm like I'm a purple belt who's starting to compete more regularly for what for whatever that's worth.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Most dangerous man on the map.
• 55:39
  unknown: Yeah.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I I found that I'm I'm in I'm enjoying like the the new levels and the new challenges um that comes with it.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um where would you say sorry, what were you gonna say?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh I was just gonna say, you know, faith permitting, as you said, like when you get your black belt, uh your objective is like let me turn it white.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let me turn this thing white, let me wear it white.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: And just it just really never forget what it's like to be a white belt coming in there, a blue belt, purple belt, brown belt.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's so so exciting.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're I always say when somebody's awarded a black belt, I'm like, welcome to the new beginning.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's your your new spring season is upon you, where now you're you get to like you just had four seasons white to blue, blue, to purple, purple, brown, brown to black.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: But now, as a black belt, you're you get to enjoy a whole new spring with some experience behind you.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: You should be excited and vulnerable and sprouting in all these different directions.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: And with the new sprouts, you just gotta pull the weeds because the the weeds will come, the ego weeds will come too.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: So get rid of those and and and intentionally go out and get tapped by every white belt in the academy.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: Make that your first uh objective.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: I want every white belt to tap me out, even if I have to hand to them on a silver platter, just to get that all knocked out.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: What what's fun is that this this conversation is now recorded and it will be it will exist for for as long as it exists, and uh I can come back to this whenever I get a promotion and just re-listen to the to your words, which would be a keyboard.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: I would love it.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: I would love it.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Where would you say jujitsu?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm sure there's lots of examples, but maybe you could just pick one where jujitsu has helped you off the mat, you know, and your philosophy around jujitsu has helped you in daily life.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've had uh yes, I mean there would I I bring this up not because it's a bad story, but like it was very I was very proud of I guess my stoic training that I and and stuff I learned on the mats when I had I had two weddings I was going to short distance apart, and you know, it was an exciting time, right?
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: And during both of these weddings, two different weddings, I got phone calls that someone I loved passed away during the weddings.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I had a training partner that died on the mats, and then I had my my my stepfather and two different weddings, and so I'm like, what is happening?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm celebrating and smiling and posing for pictures, and then going in a uh like a broom closet, like a coat closet to talk to my mother to console her, and then myself as well.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Come out, open the doors again, turn on the face.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: I basically was trying to go into my inner citadel, right, for for both these.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd go talking to the to the person I was with, my my teammate when he passed away, and then going back out and then put on the smile again.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to switch, I had to code switch between the enjoyment and and the the beauty of a marriage with that of a death, and back and forth several times that I two of these just you you could ask for a more weird situation, but uh that I I took from that the the ability we all have to go into our inner citadel, where we're safe, you know, you know, technically that's just in our mind, but I actually chose geographic citadels too, the front yard in one case, and then a coat closet in the other, to recenter myself so I could be the best version of myself for the person I needed to be so to support who I was next to in that moment, and then switch back and switch back.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: And on the mats, that happened that that happens every time you're rolling with a different partner.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: This person is is competing this weekend.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: They need you to kill them.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: This person over here is uh more of a they're for the social reasons.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: They want to talk about their day, okay?
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: This one over here is super flexible and they want to be tested that way.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: This person's a monster, we've got to grace them out.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're used to code switching with all these different grapplers, so much so, and for so many years.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: I found in the that example I gave with the weddings and the funerals or weddings and the deaths, that it applies everywhere.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to be able to code switch.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a good mark of a leader, too, is you to take the needs of this, handle it with all your energy here, and then you know, close off for a second, change gears, and then support this person in a different way here.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, that that's one example I give a lot about how man, this is that's jujitsu, and then or stoicism, whatever, or it's practice uh practicing jujitsu stoic, I should say.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wow.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's uh that's a very unique situation to find yourself in, and to be able to navigate that.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I can imagine many people without experience and practice would have just shut down um in that kind of situation.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and I and I tell myself too, uh, and I that's something I always use when I'm going through something really tough.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: It could be a mountain climb, it could be a fight, it could be whatever.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I always say, here, at this moment, right here, is where other people would give up, or they would just or they would fall apart, and whatever I've done, I'm not going to give up here.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is where, this is the moment though, where I get permission to quit, and I won't.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that happens on the maths too.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: My Professor Sauer, my teacher, he says, every day you're invited to quit, and every day you you turn it down.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I also add on to it, not just would this is a perfect opportunity where everyone else would quit.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: I always say these words in my head, this is where a weaker version of myself would quit.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: A weaker version of myself would fall apart here.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: And just by saying that, I'm almost tricking myself into assuming the stronger version of myself in that moment, and then I feel like that is helpful in getting me through tough times.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, again, I'm taking this.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm taking this.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: Please do.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: Very good.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if someone was training tonight, uh, you know, they're they're listening to the conversation, they're gonna go off and train.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: What's something that you'd like them to try?
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh could be a technique, a practice, thought process into the into the dojo.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there's there's a fun one I do just for fun.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it'll help your jiu-jitsu or whatever, but when I'm going for a move, let's say Kimura, I'm going for Kimura on you, or you're doing it to me, it doesn't matter.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: Picture how many people at the exact same time are doing that exact same move across the globe.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great way to kind of connect us.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and and then one step further, how many people have done this before and will do it again?
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: And if that's not the cosmological view, right?
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just I picture uh like Leonidas, I picture uh Socrates doing Kimura.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those you ever see those old uh statues of the of the Greek wrestlers?
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're using today's jujitsu movements, you know, it's it's timeless.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or you look at the old uh paintings in Japan of the samurai, they're using jujitsu there too.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: How what has what is here has always been and always will be, and you're a part of a big long thread of grappling that's as ancient as it as the hills and will go on for millennia after us, and you're a part of something like that that connects us.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just beautiful.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's something I like to think about, but yeah, that's amazing.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I wasn't expecting that, but I really like it.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I really like that one.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one if you were to go.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if you want, that's just a really fun one.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: It just really makes you feel and you're connected to everybody.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, but if you want something like a little bit more like uh hands-on, you know, like stick a deep hand in for a collar, like for uh you guys play ghee or no gi or both?
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: Both.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say you put a a deep uh a deep hand on the collar like this, and while he's thinking about your neck, and while you're thinking about his neck, just watch what his arms do.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like he's you know and then and then see if anything occurs to you.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or or vice versa.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_01: Go go for their arms, go for an arm and just pay, just practice, practice having like prey eyes instead of predator eyes.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of putting your eyes focused on just one thing, just practice on whatever it is you're doing, with the hopefully that they're assuming that you're they're focused on the same thing, practice doing something, but thinking elsewhere.
• 1:04:24
  unknown: Right.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a fun, you know what I mean?
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, because that's cool.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you do if you do if you're doing that strategy to me and I'm not doing it to you, you know, you're you're focused on you put your hand in my collar, I'm most likely just thinking of your hand in my collar.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: But if you already have this premonition, this this premeditation on this, like, yeah, I'm gonna put that hand there, but I'm not watching the neck.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know where his neck is, my hand's there.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: Watch my le watch me put my le watch what I do with my body or my weight, pay attention to the flanks while I'm still paying attention to the front.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that might be a fun trick.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, there's two really good ones there.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so where can people find uh find more about you and get access to this book?
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: The the book, like I it drops tonight.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure where this episode will go on, but um jujitsustoic.com.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's where it'll be available.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and then um and then you can find me at John underscore Friedland, John Friedland at uh Instagram.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Instagram, your website, and the book is gonna be on Amazon as well, right?
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's all that's right.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is it not?
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, the the the the the Amazon link is on the website uh jujitsuic.com.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna add links.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: This this episode is gonna be going on YouTube, it's gonna be going on podcasts, uh, it's gonna be a blog post, emails, and I'm gonna try and sh uh share it with everyone that I know who is interested in stoicism and jujitsu because you know Thank you so much.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a pleasure talking with you.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can talk all day about this.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all right.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well maybe we can we can run it back in a little while.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_00: That'd be fun.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: I would love that.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: I would love that.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, John.