Latest / North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast / Cubs news items: Nico Hoerner’s timeline, Craig Counsell’s staff and more

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Cubs news items: Nico Hoerner’s timeline, Craig Counsell’s staff and more · North Side Territory: A Chicago Cubs Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: It's less about like the results on the field and
0:02
Speaker 1: more about like what would you doing in between starts?
0:05
Speaker 1: What type of work was it putting in? Welcome into
0:11
Speaker 1: North Side Territory, Foul Territory networks, Cubs podcasts. I'm Sada
0:16
Speaker 1: Sharma with my partner Patrick Mooney, were your Cubs beat
0:19
Speaker 1: writers for The Athletic and we are talking all things Cubs. Patrick.
0:24
Speaker 1: We got our first little tidbit of news, I guess
0:28
Speaker 1: the other day with Nico Horner getting flexer surgery flexer
0:34
Speaker 1: tendon surgery on his right wrist forearm hand. It was
0:42
Speaker 1: just described as flexer tendon. But I think we, like
0:45
Speaker 1: we've both been told separately in various by various sources
0:49
Speaker 1: that it's forearm hand type issue.
0:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
0:54
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously, WebMD is always a great research when
0:57
Speaker 3: you start googling, whether it's in.
0:58
Speaker 2: Your own.
1:01
Speaker 3: Your own life or whether you're covering a team to start,
1:03
Speaker 3: you know, googling away to see what things are.
1:06
Speaker 2: But I think.
1:08
Speaker 3: Maybe the interesting part is what we both told separately
1:11
Speaker 3: of like there's not really a timeline until he.
1:14
Speaker 2: Shows up for spring training next year, which seemed a
1:19
Speaker 2: little odd, but.
1:22
Speaker 3: I think it does speak to like This was not
1:25
Speaker 3: one of those like, oh, just got a knee surgery,
1:28
Speaker 3: you know, knee scope cleanup type thing, or just kind
1:30
Speaker 3: of a regular maintenance like this sounded like.
1:33
Speaker 2: The forearm bothered Nico.
1:36
Speaker 3: Or significant part of the season that it obviously requires
1:41
Speaker 3: a surgery that if you hear a picture getting that surgery,
1:44
Speaker 3: it's definitely like that. Maybe the timing of this the
1:48
Speaker 3: middle of October does give him enough runway to have,
1:54
Speaker 3: you know, a relatively normal season next year, but it
2:00
Speaker 3: just progresses. It just depends on how he progresses. And
2:04
Speaker 3: like we don't we can't get too far down the
2:07
Speaker 3: like roster maneuvering rabbit hole. But what do you think
2:11
Speaker 3: this means at of as we're thinking about kind of
2:13
Speaker 3: the off season puzzle here, and you know our editors
2:17
Speaker 3: love those open day roster projections. If we had to
2:19
Speaker 3: put one down, now, what do you think this means
2:22
Speaker 3: for Nico on second base in the Cubs as a whole?
2:25
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I think it is interesting, right, Like
2:27
Speaker 1: is it is? How if they're not going to determine
2:32
Speaker 1: like what his timeline is, or if they don't have
2:34
Speaker 1: a good feel for his timeline until spring training, then
2:37
Speaker 1: it's really up in the air what they're what they're
2:39
Speaker 1: doing this winter, right with regards to whether they're whether
2:44
Speaker 1: they even want to consider trading Niko Horner, whether they
2:48
Speaker 1: are going to call up Matt Shaw right away to
2:50
Speaker 1: start the season, whether they sign a stop gap or
2:53
Speaker 1: trade for a stop gap in a bigger move, right,
2:58
Speaker 1: It's I do think I think it kind of kind
3:02
Speaker 1: of makes it a little hazy as to what they
3:05
Speaker 1: will do or what they can do for this offseason.
3:09
Speaker 1: But I don't think it's a catastrophe, right, It's not
3:13
Speaker 1: something This isn't something that's going to derail his career
3:17
Speaker 1: if they wanted to trade him. You know, a team
3:21
Speaker 1: could very easily, you know, like be like, Okay, this
3:24
Speaker 1: isn't gonna impact him significantly. If anything, he just put
3:27
Speaker 1: up an above average offensive season and played elite defense
3:31
Speaker 1: while playing with this injury for a while, and they
3:35
Speaker 1: could expect improvement next season if he's fully healthy, right, Like,
3:40
Speaker 1: if a team is optimistic about him, I think that's
3:46
Speaker 1: that's the rosy scenario. I don't think it would actually,
3:49
Speaker 1: you know, teams are always looking for any leverage that
3:51
Speaker 1: they can in the trade, So it's gonna they're gonna
3:54
Speaker 1: downgrade him because of an injury, right.
4:00
Speaker 3: Know, how much they're obsessed with value of like selling
4:03
Speaker 3: I mean, trading Nico when he's coming off a pretty
4:06
Speaker 3: significant surgery.
4:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, in the middle of the rehab process.
4:10
Speaker 1: I don't know, right, so it probably it probably downgrades
4:15
Speaker 1: the chance of him being traded significantly. I think, like,
4:19
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that they're going to get the type
4:22
Speaker 1: of value that they see as equal or surplus in
4:27
Speaker 1: a in a trade for Nico right now. But I
4:30
Speaker 1: don't think it changes his projection too much. Like he
4:34
Speaker 1: was playing with this for a while, is my understanding.
4:38
Speaker 1: They noticed some issues with this throwing, and he said
4:41
Speaker 1: he was fine, over and over and over again. He
4:46
Speaker 1: he didn't bring this up, So you know, that's how
4:50
Speaker 1: players are like that. This is something that we had
4:53
Speaker 1: a question about this right in our mail bag about
4:57
Speaker 1: injuries and why they don't put guys on the aisle
5:00
Speaker 1: is really a lot to do with the player. They
5:02
Speaker 1: don't always let on how bad things are. They don't
5:05
Speaker 1: always let on about how much something is bothering them
5:09
Speaker 1: or how much it's impacting their play, or that they're
5:11
Speaker 1: or that something's even going on and it's just hard
5:15
Speaker 1: to force a player to to to admit these things
5:20
Speaker 1: unless they're just a complete detriment to the team. And
5:22
Speaker 1: there were points where Nico wasn't that great, But it
5:24
Speaker 1: wasn't like obvious that he was terrible. It wasn't like
5:27
Speaker 1: he was striking out all of a sudden at a
5:29
Speaker 1: higher rate or anything like that. It was just, you know,
5:33
Speaker 1: he's a unique type of player in the sense like
5:36
Speaker 1: a lot of his value comes from defense and then
5:39
Speaker 1: the ball in play not going over the fence type thing, right,
5:43
Speaker 1: So sometimes it can just seem like randomness when he's
5:46
Speaker 1: in a goal stretch because it's like everything's falling into gloves,
5:49
Speaker 1: and then when he's hot, it's like, oh, he's finding
5:50
Speaker 1: the grass at times.
5:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
5:53
Speaker 3: I mean he acknowledged when I spoke to him towards
5:56
Speaker 3: the end of the season, like he he felt like
5:58
Speaker 3: he didn't have that good of a year, you know
6:01
Speaker 3: what I mean. I think his standards, his expectations, he
6:05
Speaker 3: wanted higher, and like you look at it, you know,
6:09
Speaker 3: I think Baseball Reference had him at like a three
6:11
Speaker 3: point seven war season, and he didn't feel like he
6:16
Speaker 3: played like exceptional.
6:18
Speaker 2: And I think for him, for the Cubs.
6:21
Speaker 3: You're hoping for that, you know, five war season, you
6:24
Speaker 3: know four plus, which.
6:25
Speaker 2: Was something he's done before.
6:29
Speaker 3: I think our understanding this more of like a wear
6:31
Speaker 3: and tear type of injury, right than more of like
6:34
Speaker 3: some sort of specific incident, which makes sense in that
6:40
Speaker 3: he's an up the middle player. He's a fast player
6:42
Speaker 3: who plays hard.
6:44
Speaker 2: You know.
6:44
Speaker 3: I think he had some stuff earlier in his career, right,
6:46
Speaker 3: I think that was the knock on Nicos, like could
6:49
Speaker 3: he stay healthy? And to his credit, he adjusted his
6:51
Speaker 3: routine and really found some stuff that works and kept
6:56
Speaker 3: him on the field.
6:59
Speaker 2: But it will be interesting.
7:02
Speaker 3: I have a heart something that they're going to go
7:04
Speaker 3: out and get like a second basement, right. I think
7:10
Speaker 3: it'll be interesting to see, like do they try to
7:12
Speaker 3: get more power at first? Do you try Michael Bush
7:16
Speaker 3: at second? I have a hard time imagining them giving
7:20
Speaker 3: up on parades at third, But like he could probably
7:24
Speaker 3: do it right and they could stop gap it. And
7:26
Speaker 3: this is what Jeed talks about when he talks about
7:31
Speaker 3: depth and having depth that's not even on the forty
7:34
Speaker 3: man roster yet and packing the.
7:36
Speaker 2: Upper levels of your organization with talent.
7:39
Speaker 3: I think he even said it at a season in
7:41
Speaker 3: press conference, like you're gonna feel really good when injuries happened.
7:44
Speaker 3: You can bring up a top one hundred prospect, and
7:46
Speaker 3: in the case of Matt Shaw, he's like, what a
7:49
Speaker 3: top twenty five ish prospect?
7:52
Speaker 2: And so.
7:54
Speaker 3: I don't know, if I had to bet money right now,
7:56
Speaker 3: I would probably bet on Matt Shaw, right, I.
8:01
Speaker 2: Mean, I think they would be pretty comfortable with that.
8:04
Speaker 3: They wouldn't love the idea of adding him to the
8:06
Speaker 3: forty man before they had to, or you know, obviously
8:10
Speaker 3: no one wants to see Nico.
8:13
Speaker 2: Sidelined.
8:14
Speaker 3: But like you said from that question off a previous
8:17
Speaker 3: mail bag, like the Cubs are not gonna rush Nico
8:23
Speaker 3: through this. I'm sure he's gonna push and we'll just
8:26
Speaker 3: kind of have to see where things are at whenever
8:29
Speaker 3: we get to Mason next year.
8:32
Speaker 1: One quick thing, Patrick, I'm just looking baseball perspectives as
8:37
Speaker 1: like this injury database, and I'm looking for don pitchers
8:40
Speaker 1: with a flexer strain and it's not very common. Yeah,
8:46
Speaker 1: I haven't found very many, and it seems like it's
8:49
Speaker 1: like two to three, three to four months of the
8:53
Speaker 1: player being out. One at PJ Higgins, former Cub, Yeah,
8:57
Speaker 1: for one hundred and he was more than four months.
9:00
Speaker 1: It was flexer tendon repair surgery back in twenty twenty one.
9:05
Speaker 1: It says he missed more than four months. The rest
9:09
Speaker 1: was Alejandro Kirk that was just a strain, no surgery
9:12
Speaker 1: eighty days, and then Mitch Garber surgery eighty seven. I
9:18
Speaker 1: can't find any other like hand or finger. Maybe I'm
9:22
Speaker 1: doing the doing the thing wrong here as far as
9:25
Speaker 1: how I look at this, but yeah, I'm not seeing
9:29
Speaker 1: I'm not seeing any hands, mostly forearm. So this is
9:33
Speaker 1: a kind of a unique injury, and we'll see, we'll
9:37
Speaker 1: see how it plays out. I am curious. I was
9:41
Speaker 1: interested right away. I was like, wait, what is this injury?
9:43
Speaker 1: How long? And the fact that we can't get a
9:45
Speaker 1: get a timeline is a little is definitely interesting. All right, Patrick,
9:50
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and we will
9:52
Speaker 1: be right back with more cubstock.
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10:57
Speaker 1: All right, we're back at it, Patrick. We have some shifting, adjusting,
11:04
Speaker 1: realigning of the coaching staff after Craig Council dismissed multiple
11:08
Speaker 1: coaches on the final day of the season, and then
11:12
Speaker 1: maybe what like a week or two later, Willie Harris
11:15
Speaker 1: and the Cubs parted ways. I mean, the coaching adjustment
11:21
Speaker 1: is as simple as Mark Stripmeyer, who is I believe
11:24
Speaker 1: field coordinator, major league field coordinator. He's a shifted to
11:30
Speaker 1: bullpen coach. Darren Holmes was let go. Strip Meyer Matter
11:34
Speaker 1: was in his first season with the Cubs last year,
11:36
Speaker 1: so it was Homes Holmes was let go and Stripmatter
11:39
Speaker 1: shifts to bullpen coach. Yeah, you know, I think this
11:45
Speaker 1: is just a you know, this is a respected coach.
11:47
Speaker 1: Sounds like he's a good communicator. From some of the
11:50
Speaker 1: players I talked to, this is this was well received.
11:54
Speaker 1: I think the bigger news is strength and conditioning, where
11:58
Speaker 1: those guys get over looked and don't get a lot
12:01
Speaker 1: of attention until people get injured, right, And and I
12:06
Speaker 1: think there was a little bit of a focus on
12:08
Speaker 1: that early in the season. I believe you asked a
12:12
Speaker 1: question about it, strength and conditioning, and and that made
12:15
Speaker 1: some changes, Like I guess you were on it in
12:18
Speaker 1: April and May, and it was something that council I
12:23
Speaker 1: think it was specially attuned to and took note of
12:28
Speaker 1: early on, and he made a change and they made
12:30
Speaker 1: some internal promotions, internal hires.
12:35
Speaker 2: Yes, we have.
12:37
Speaker 3: Mark Wiseman and Kevin poppy. I think I'm pronouncing it
12:42
Speaker 3: that correctly.
12:43
Speaker 2: I hope so.
12:46
Speaker 3: But Mark sinteresting guy. He's from the Chicago suburbs. I
12:49
Speaker 3: believe the Buffalo Grove area was like an awesome fullback
12:55
Speaker 3: at Iowa. I believe there was like a Wiseman for
12:59
Speaker 3: Heisman briefly campaign push and you know, I think you
13:03
Speaker 3: tried out for the Cincinnati Bengals. It didn't work out.
13:06
Speaker 3: I think, you know, injuries may have played a role,
13:09
Speaker 3: but just like a big dude, a big presence, someone
13:13
Speaker 3: who's worked with the organization's prospects for a while, well
13:17
Speaker 3: regarded for his energy, and I think if you kind
13:22
Speaker 3: of look at his football background, I think and his personability,
13:29
Speaker 3: I think that has carried some weight and well as
13:32
Speaker 3: well as Kevin who has already been involved in this
13:36
Speaker 3: space with the Cubs, kind of coordinating between the major.
13:40
Speaker 2: And minor league sides. Someone who's designed off season programs
13:43
Speaker 2: for Cubs players already.
13:46
Speaker 3: He has a facility in Texas where Hayden Wiznski has
13:48
Speaker 3: worked out at for years. I believe, even before he
13:52
Speaker 3: joined the Cubs. Like this may be going back to
13:55
Speaker 3: his time in Houston and high school or college. I
13:57
Speaker 3: forget when, but obviously a long standing connection there, and
14:02
Speaker 3: so it is interesting. I feel like after Councils spent
14:06
Speaker 3: a lot of this past year sort of observing what
14:08
Speaker 3: the Cubs do. Not that he was a passive part
14:11
Speaker 3: of the season by any means, but someone who did
14:14
Speaker 3: not really get a chance to hire his own staff,
14:16
Speaker 3: and who I think is deliberate by nature, really took
14:22
Speaker 3: this opportunity to observe. And yet that night after the
14:25
Speaker 3: first game of the season, letting go a bunch of coaches.
14:30
Speaker 3: I think our understanding here is like, maybe not every
14:33
Speaker 3: single role will be filled from last year. The staff
14:35
Speaker 3: could shrink a little bit, but that's more because of
14:38
Speaker 3: overlap than anything else.
14:41
Speaker 2: And so.
14:43
Speaker 3: The thing I'm curious about, and I don't have any
14:45
Speaker 3: inside info in this, is like, will anyone defect from
14:48
Speaker 3: Milwaukee again?
14:49
Speaker 2: Like will he be able to poach a Brewer's coach?
14:52
Speaker 3: And this is just my speculation, but I think most
14:56
Speaker 3: contracts sort of run through the end of October, right,
14:58
Speaker 3: And that was Counsel's thing at least last year, where
15:01
Speaker 3: he right, I did not talk to the Cubs until
15:03
Speaker 3: that officially expires. So that's something that I am curious
15:07
Speaker 3: about to see if we'll get one more Brewer coming
15:11
Speaker 3: south from Milwaukee.
15:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if that were the case, right,
15:19
Speaker 1: Like why, like usually we're we're pretty good at like
15:22
Speaker 1: getting uh, getting names and getting candidates right like, uh,
15:27
Speaker 1: we can usually and this the process usually doesn't take
15:31
Speaker 1: this long, right like it if you have an open
15:36
Speaker 1: you have a staff, you have a manager in place,
15:38
Speaker 1: like usually, Well I guess, well, no, I guess that's
15:42
Speaker 1: not right, because those spots were still open when when
15:48
Speaker 1: Council was hired, right the bullpen coach and whatever, the
15:54
Speaker 1: strategy coach, whatever, the the two coaches that that Ross
16:01
Speaker 1: let go, We're still open when he was doing when
16:05
Speaker 1: he was like that, so and that was the GM meetings.
16:08
Speaker 1: So it's very possible that you know that this this
16:12
Speaker 1: stuff does drag on. But you know, I'm curious to
16:17
Speaker 1: see what happens with the Milwaukee staff. I don't think
16:20
Speaker 1: they'd give permission to let guys talk to the cups.
16:24
Speaker 1: I just don't. I don't think that that's how Milwaukee's
16:27
Speaker 1: been to roll right now. So if those if those
16:29
Speaker 1: guys haven't been extended, and there's some names that we've
16:33
Speaker 1: heard in the past with with Milwaukee that could make sense.
16:36
Speaker 1: So I'm curious to see if if if there's anyone
16:40
Speaker 1: that that defects over and and if there's some more
16:44
Speaker 1: shuffling within the staff. You know, it's not like they
16:49
Speaker 1: may have the first base coach or third base coach
16:51
Speaker 1: on staff already and and maybe looking to fill a
16:55
Speaker 1: different role. I don't know, I'm I'm it's it's possible
17:00
Speaker 1: that these types of things happen. Uh what there was
17:04
Speaker 1: something that crap I lost my train of thought, but
17:07
Speaker 1: there was something else I wanted to bring up.
17:09
Speaker 2: Oh, they're definitely in the process of this.
17:13
Speaker 3: They've made progress, but it's not finalized yet, which does
17:19
Speaker 3: give them that kind of flexibility you're.
17:21
Speaker 1: Talking about right right? And what something that I got
17:25
Speaker 1: from a player regarding strength and conditioning. I think that
17:30
Speaker 1: the guys that were let go were well liked, but
17:34
Speaker 1: players that are really diligent about these things when it
17:39
Speaker 1: comes to working out and their routines that they've noticed
17:42
Speaker 1: that some of the younger guys aren't as diligent about it,
17:45
Speaker 1: and and they they'd like more. I think they'd like
17:49
Speaker 1: more pushing in motivation from that group. H and Weissman
17:54
Speaker 1: and Poppy I think have a really good reputation for
17:57
Speaker 1: that like that. So Poppy, sorry, I was I was
18:00
Speaker 1: looking this up while you were talking. So if you
18:03
Speaker 1: said this, Bobby does have a history with a lot
18:10
Speaker 1: with these players in a sense like he's he hasn't
18:14
Speaker 1: worked directly with them, but he does their programming at
18:16
Speaker 1: times and like passes along how they need to work
18:20
Speaker 1: in the offseason or during the season, whatever it may be.
18:24
Speaker 1: And and Wiseman is definitely around as well. They have
18:28
Speaker 1: good reputations. I think strength and conditioning is something that
18:33
Speaker 1: the Cubs can improve upon as far as making sure
18:38
Speaker 1: that they're that especially young players, players that are learning
18:42
Speaker 1: how to work every day. The big leagues really are
18:46
Speaker 1: on top of those things, and it's an area that
18:49
Speaker 1: the Cubs can can really get on top of with
18:51
Speaker 1: with those young guys. So it's a it sounds like
18:55
Speaker 1: it's a step in the right direction. One one player
18:57
Speaker 1: told me that they were excited about the moves and
19:00
Speaker 1: think they they're better in the weight room. So we'll see.
19:05
Speaker 1: We'll see if that actually leads to success or or
19:10
Speaker 1: if you see tangible results. I don't know what the
19:13
Speaker 1: tangible results are but you know, maybe it's the fewer
19:18
Speaker 1: guys on the I l maybe it's just you know,
19:22
Speaker 1: guys will talk about it. Like I think there's little
19:25
Speaker 1: things that you hear over the course of the season,
19:28
Speaker 1: right that it's like, oh, that's interesting. I like when
19:31
Speaker 1: when Jameson Tyan talked about Jordan Wicks and the improvements
19:36
Speaker 1: he saw, the growth he saw with him off the field.
19:39
Speaker 1: I think that's a little thing that like, oh, Okay,
19:42
Speaker 1: this guy matured, this guy, this guy grew as you know,
19:46
Speaker 1: it's less about like the results on the field and
19:48
Speaker 1: more about like what was he doing in between starts?
19:51
Speaker 1: What type of work was he putting in? And and
19:53
Speaker 1: Tyne noticed that and felt he matured as a player.
19:57
Speaker 1: I think those are the little things we may pick
19:59
Speaker 1: up over the course of the season. Is this working,
20:01
Speaker 1: is this effective? Here's what we hear from the players
20:05
Speaker 1: in between games and after games and things like.
20:08
Speaker 3: That, And our operating assumption is that kind of the
20:14
Speaker 3: bigger name coaches will remain in place, right I mean
20:19
Speaker 3: I'm talking about I mean Ryan Flaherty hasn't been.
20:23
Speaker 2: Hired for some sort of manager job.
20:25
Speaker 3: That's clearly the track that he's on or had been
20:30
Speaker 3: when he came to Chicago. We'll see Dustin Kelly. I
20:38
Speaker 3: think earned the right to come back. Seeing what Miguel
20:42
Speaker 3: Amaya did mid season, how Pete Crow Armstrong evolved as
20:47
Speaker 3: a hitter, how the Cubs a lot of players sort
20:51
Speaker 3: of found their norms, and I think you got to
20:54
Speaker 3: give them a break in terms of the way Wrigley
20:58
Speaker 3: played this year, right, I think his personality and relationships.
21:05
Speaker 3: And also I'm just tired of the blame the hitting
21:07
Speaker 3: coach game, Like I just can't really do that, Ayre,
21:11
Speaker 3: you know, right, And obviously Tommy Hovey's pretty well established
21:16
Speaker 3: at this point, almost an extension of the front office.
21:18
Speaker 2: I mean, how do you read of those other coaching roles.
21:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I how to be I think, if anything,
21:26
Speaker 1: it like he's earned. He's earned, like your safe type
21:32
Speaker 1: designation as far as coach, like being the pitching coach.
21:35
Speaker 1: If he wants to, if he wants a different role,
21:38
Speaker 1: or if he wants to move on that, I understand that.
21:40
Speaker 1: But like he's done a he's done a really good job.
21:44
Speaker 1: He's helped He's helped so many relievers, he's helped develop
21:47
Speaker 1: young pitchers that I think he deserves to stay and
21:52
Speaker 1: has earned counsel's trust in the year that they've worked together.
21:58
Speaker 1: I agree with you on DK, like what he did
22:03
Speaker 1: over the course of the season with those younger guys
22:05
Speaker 1: has to be acknowledged, Like that's some of the biggest
22:08
Speaker 1: stuff that you can do as a coach. Work hard
22:12
Speaker 1: with these guys, don't give up on them, continue to
22:15
Speaker 1: find ways to adjust and improve major league developing. Developing
22:23
Speaker 1: at the major league level was a big thing that
22:26
Speaker 1: THEO used to harp on that they weren't doing enough,
22:29
Speaker 1: and obviously Jed is focused on it as well. I
22:32
Speaker 1: think DK was respected as a minor league hitting coordinator,
22:38
Speaker 1: and it's clear to me that you can't judge a
22:41
Speaker 1: hitting coach off April and May. But I think when
22:44
Speaker 1: you have young players and you see them struggle April, May,
22:47
Speaker 1: June and then and then kind of take off and
22:50
Speaker 1: make adjustments, and there's real things that they're changing or
22:54
Speaker 1: working on, and the hitting coach is helping them with that,
22:58
Speaker 1: it's hard to give them a hard time. Veterans that's
23:01
Speaker 1: hit or miss, who knows how much of that as
23:04
Speaker 1: a hitting coach, But young guys, especially when you see
23:06
Speaker 1: that improvement, they get they deserve credit for that, and
23:09
Speaker 1: Plaierity got a lot of love from from Counsel over
23:12
Speaker 1: the course of the season. Like Counsel gave him, Uh
23:16
Speaker 1: did he give him base stealing? Uh? What he gave
23:21
Speaker 1: him some responsibility from the bench that seemed a little
23:25
Speaker 1: odd but was really effective.
23:27
Speaker 2: Uh.
23:28
Speaker 1: It's either it was it was something like base stealing
23:30
Speaker 1: or something like that, and in the middle of the
23:32
Speaker 1: season they just kind of took off with it. It's
23:36
Speaker 1: clear like Counsel went, like when Council goes out of
23:38
Speaker 1: his way to like praise these guys with like it,
23:41
Speaker 1: you know, and tell him like I gave him this
23:42
Speaker 1: responsibility and he's done a great job with it. Like
23:45
Speaker 1: that's I think that matters.
23:48
Speaker 2: I don't know.
23:49
Speaker 3: Is there a coach in the dugout telling Saya not
23:51
Speaker 3: to steal third base against.
23:53
Speaker 2: The Dodgers in the last inning.
23:56
Speaker 3: I can't remember the entire sequence at this point, but
23:59
Speaker 3: that was I was laring one and I think what
24:02
Speaker 3: you had heard and what kind of made it into
24:04
Speaker 3: our story of like the base running overall just has
24:08
Speaker 3: to improve next year, like the base deals and just overall,
24:15
Speaker 3: whether you're talking about some of those mistakes running the bases,
24:20
Speaker 3: or some of the accumulations of injuries, particularly early in
24:23
Speaker 3: the season. Just you look at the record. I mean,
24:27
Speaker 3: that's the bottom line. You did not get this overwhelming
24:29
Speaker 3: sense that, like the Cubs are crushing it with the
24:32
Speaker 3: details over and over again, and that's why changes are happening.
24:38
Speaker 3: Changes are underway, and it will be interesting to see
24:41
Speaker 3: kind of the finished product once we get through that window.
24:46
Speaker 3: Like you mentioned shade of World Series GM meetings, the
24:51
Speaker 3: hiring cycle starts to slow down kind of by the
24:54
Speaker 3: end of that period, and we'll get a better sense
24:57
Speaker 3: of like what the Cubs are trying to to do.
25:00
Speaker 2: Here, we get it.
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26:02
Speaker 1: All right, Patrick, I think you wanted to talk a
26:04
Speaker 1: little bit about an emerging powerhouse in baseball. At least
26:09
Speaker 1: that's you know, there's been some interesting articles written about
26:13
Speaker 1: the Mets. I think if you look at what they
26:16
Speaker 1: did this season and then what they're capable of, it's
26:19
Speaker 1: just another people have been talking about it Cohen with
26:22
Speaker 1: David Stearns like this is It's been happening for a
26:27
Speaker 1: year now, the discussions of what they could be and
26:30
Speaker 1: their surprise run to the NLCS. I think is it
26:33
Speaker 1: is just the tip of the iceberg about how good
26:35
Speaker 1: this team could be and what's kind of coming.
26:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll have a kind of wider World Series preview
26:45
Speaker 3: later in the week, But I don't know. To me,
26:47
Speaker 3: watching these playoffs, the Mets really stood out. And I
26:53
Speaker 3: think if your Cubs fan or a few Cubs I
26:55
Speaker 3: don't know, player, coach, executive, whatever, I think you're gonna
26:59
Speaker 3: have to count for the Mets. And I think the
27:04
Speaker 3: Mets sort of make the Cubs look a little, I
27:08
Speaker 3: don't know, small or behind, just in terms of you
27:12
Speaker 3: have Steve Cohen as an owner, what he's done there.
27:16
Speaker 2: It's not perfect. He had mistakes on the front end.
27:22
Speaker 2: He's not.
27:24
Speaker 3: He's certainly an interesting character, I guess you could say,
27:29
Speaker 3: and he's certainly using the Mets to burnish his reputation
27:34
Speaker 3: at large.
27:35
Speaker 2: But like.
27:37
Speaker 3: He came in and changed kind of the paradigm of
27:40
Speaker 3: the Mets and just said I'm going to spend in
27:43
Speaker 3: a way that cub stands like, oh oh, like an
27:46
Speaker 3: owner to do that. And then you have David Stearns
27:50
Speaker 3: leaving Milwaukee and in one off season just hitting on
27:53
Speaker 3: one free agent after another, whether Sevarino, Manaia.
28:00
Speaker 2: They have some good players to start.
28:01
Speaker 3: With, no doubt, but it seemed like you're like, wow,
28:05
Speaker 3: like what if he had a full year to really
28:08
Speaker 3: learn the organization and put more of his imprint on it.
28:12
Speaker 3: Do kind of that Brewer's model, but with a ton
28:15
Speaker 3: more money. And they obviously pursued Greig Counsel and hired
28:22
Speaker 3: kind of a first year manager instead who delivered kind.
28:27
Speaker 2: Of the magic that the Cubs just lacked. And so
28:32
Speaker 2: for me, like.
28:35
Speaker 3: At each level of the organization, you just saw something
28:38
Speaker 3: that kind of maybe you look at the Cubs like
28:42
Speaker 3: what like what's missing in Chicago?
28:46
Speaker 2: And then even if.
28:47
Speaker 3: You're the most optimistic Cubs fan, I think the Cubs
28:49
Speaker 3: are building the superpower. Like if you think that way,
28:52
Speaker 3: you're gonna have to think the Mets are gonna be
28:54
Speaker 3: pretty good too. That at a certain point you're gonna
28:58
Speaker 3: have to beat the Mets. I would think if you
29:01
Speaker 3: want to get to the World Series here in the
29:03
Speaker 3: next like five years, right, I mean that's kind of
29:06
Speaker 3: how the national stories that are coming out of these playoffs.
29:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, if if we're looking at teams that
29:14
Speaker 1: that I think are going to be there year after
29:16
Speaker 1: year and have both the money and the and the
29:20
Speaker 1: type of executives that I believe can you know, really
29:25
Speaker 1: use that really wield that money properly and then build
29:30
Speaker 1: an organization up and down, like from the bottom up.
29:35
Speaker 1: The Dodgers are probably number one, Yeah, and then I
29:39
Speaker 1: think the Mets are coming. Like David Stearns is like
29:43
Speaker 1: he has earned all the respect in the world for me,
29:46
Speaker 1: Like what he did with Milwaukee was incredibly impressive. Go
29:50
Speaker 1: look at the history of the Brewers. It's kind of like,
29:53
Speaker 1: go look at the history of the Rays before Andrew
29:55
Speaker 1: Friedman showed up. Go look at the history of the
29:58
Speaker 1: Brewers before Sterns showed up, and how often they were
30:00
Speaker 1: making the playoffs. It wasn't just Stearns, right, but he
30:05
Speaker 1: was the head decision maker for the majority of that time,
30:09
Speaker 1: and he did something special there as far as turning
30:12
Speaker 1: them into a perennial contender when they were not. They
30:15
Speaker 1: were not looked at as like this model organization at all,
30:20
Speaker 1: and now they are. And I think when you have
30:25
Speaker 1: that and combine it with an ownership group that's willing
30:29
Speaker 1: to really wield their financial might, that's a game changer.
30:37
Speaker 1: I do find there's some interesting things that happened, and
30:40
Speaker 1: I wonder how repeatable it is, and we'll have to see.
30:44
Speaker 1: But they got two hundred and eighty plus inning starters
30:48
Speaker 1: on one year free agency. I don't know how many
30:53
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty inning plus starters there were in
30:55
Speaker 1: all of baseball, but my guess is it wasn't that
30:58
Speaker 1: much higher than ten. Yeah, and to have and to
31:01
Speaker 1: have two of them on one year deals, like that's
31:04
Speaker 1: that's really impressive. Uh. And that's not that's not like
31:08
Speaker 1: a what I mean, that's if anything, he gets a
31:11
Speaker 1: ton of credit for that. Right, twenty one guys that
31:16
Speaker 1: that got one hundred and eighty innings this year, so
31:18
Speaker 1: and and the and the Mets had two of them.
31:20
Speaker 1: That's that's wild, man, Like, that's really impressive to be
31:24
Speaker 1: able to find those guys and nail it. I mean,
31:28
Speaker 1: Sebarino was a solid bat I like that, man. I
31:31
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure if he was, like is this guy
31:33
Speaker 1: even a starter anymore? That type of stuff, But he
31:36
Speaker 1: shut me up and and probably a lot of other batters.
31:39
Speaker 1: And they're both gonna get paid and and I wonder,
31:42
Speaker 1: I don't know, like how how much does Sterns changes
31:44
Speaker 1: philosophy in Milwaukee. It's like, let those guys walk, right, yeah,
31:48
Speaker 1: the walk? Does he try and resign either of them?
31:52
Speaker 1: Their system? Is better. They're they're they I think they're
31:57
Speaker 1: a great uh there. You can point to them as like, hey,
32:02
Speaker 1: don't give up on some of these prospects that may
32:05
Speaker 1: have struggled that looked like they were cooked, like Mark
32:07
Speaker 1: Biento's looked terrible, terrible, like a bad player, like a
32:12
Speaker 1: complete like zero automatic out at the plate, like not
32:18
Speaker 1: putting any fear. He was their second biggest threat offensively
32:23
Speaker 1: after Lindor maybe just pure offensive threat, and he was
32:27
Speaker 1: their biggest threat at times. So yeah, like, I they're
32:34
Speaker 1: they're an interesting story, good follow. I think Biento's is
32:37
Speaker 1: a type of player fans Cubs fan since that's who
32:40
Speaker 1: we're talking to, need to keep in mind when you're
32:42
Speaker 1: writing to kick a prospect of the curb, like player development.
32:46
Speaker 1: We just talked about Dustin Kelly, like they need to
32:50
Speaker 1: You need to find the right coach to work with
32:52
Speaker 1: guys and get the most out of them. You never
32:54
Speaker 1: know what a guy's gonna be like. Look at this
32:56
Speaker 1: sixty three way to runs great A plus. In twenty
32:59
Speaker 1: twenty two, that was you know, forty one played appearances.
33:01
Speaker 1: Then twenty twenty three gets two hundred and thirty three
33:03
Speaker 1: played appearance's sixty eight way to run screen a plus
33:05
Speaker 1: like this is unusable and he's not a good defender,
33:09
Speaker 1: and then one thirty three like that would be second
33:12
Speaker 1: best on the Cubs. It's going off my memory, like
33:15
Speaker 1: that's what he had this season. He'd be right behind.
33:18
Speaker 1: Say Suzuki is the second best offensive force on a
33:21
Speaker 1: Cubs team. Yeah, it's like you never never give up
33:26
Speaker 1: on these players. If you see the talent and something
33:30
Speaker 1: can click. I agree with you there, they're going to
33:33
Speaker 1: be a force to reckon with. I don't know if
33:35
Speaker 1: the Cubs will. I don't think the Cubs will ever
33:39
Speaker 1: spend in that stratusphere, unfortunately for the fans. But the
33:44
Speaker 1: Mets are scary to consider their their farm system is
33:48
Speaker 1: in better shape than it was even a year or
33:51
Speaker 1: two ago. Obviously, they have a ton of major league talents,
33:54
Speaker 1: good enough to get to the good enough to get
33:57
Speaker 1: to the NLCS, smart executives, MVP candidate, it's they're they're
34:04
Speaker 1: they're gonna be tough to beat. I think the Cubs
34:07
Speaker 1: are are going to get better and and they're going
34:11
Speaker 1: to be in contention in the not too distant future.
34:15
Speaker 1: But the Mets and the Dodgers really make it hard
34:18
Speaker 1: for like, really make it hard to say, like, Okay,
34:22
Speaker 1: here's the clear path to the NLCS to the World Series.
34:25
Speaker 1: And it also makes it hard when when you're a
34:27
Speaker 1: fan and you're looking at those two owners and you're saying, well,
34:30
Speaker 1: why can't why can't the Cubs behave in that manner?
34:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just thought it was irrelevant takeaway.
34:38
Speaker 3: And I think back to the great conversation we had
34:40
Speaker 3: with our buddy Derek Gould to the.
34:42
Speaker 2: Saint Lewis post dispatch of like this sort of mentality
34:49
Speaker 2: in the Flyover territory in terms of.
34:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, building a baseball team, like do you want to
34:55
Speaker 3: build a team that can win or project to win
35:02
Speaker 3: anywhere from like eighty four to eighty nine wins?
35:05
Speaker 2: Or are you going to sort of.
35:09
Speaker 3: Be pushed by the Mets and the Dodgers the way
35:14
Speaker 3: that Jed Hoyer and theo Epstein talked about the Red
35:18
Speaker 3: Sox Yankees rivalry.
35:19
Speaker 2: I think there's a new Netflix documentary.
35:22
Speaker 3: Coming back out on you know, the twentieth anniversary of
35:24
Speaker 3: that twenty and four team of like do you kind
35:28
Speaker 3: of chase greatness and build that sort of monster team
35:33
Speaker 3: or do you just hope to sort of like keep
35:36
Speaker 3: getting in and get lucky at some point. It's worked
35:38
Speaker 3: for the Cardinals before it could work again. The Diamondbacks
35:42
Speaker 3: almost won a World Series with it last year. But
35:46
Speaker 3: I think the bar had been raised with another team
35:51
Speaker 3: trying to compete like dollar.
35:53
Speaker 2: For dollar, player for player with the Dodgers.
35:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, if anything, the Cubs aren't going to be competing
36:00
Speaker 1: dollar for dollars with those teams. So so all the
36:03
Speaker 1: more pressure on Jed Hoyer, Carter Hawkins, and and and
36:07
Speaker 1: that front office group two to nail these their decision
36:12
Speaker 1: making and build the right you know team. Uh, it's
36:17
Speaker 1: gonna have to be based on talent evaluation and how
36:20
Speaker 1: they accrue that talent, not on like they're not on
36:24
Speaker 1: the Cleveland budget. So it's not like you know, the Dolans.
36:28
Speaker 1: Dolan's right, they make an insane amount of money. Uh,
36:32
Speaker 1: and don't put it into that team. Ricketts puts a
36:34
Speaker 1: decent amount into this team, not at the Mets and
36:37
Speaker 1: Dodgers level. So uh, they're gonna have to figure out
36:41
Speaker 1: how to win with with that and and and they're
36:44
Speaker 1: they're not It's not like they're set up in a
36:46
Speaker 1: situation where it's like, how are they ever going to
36:48
Speaker 1: get good? You just want to see them at that level,
36:52
Speaker 1: and and I think it's possible, and this is an
36:54
Speaker 1: off season where they can get close to that, but
36:57
Speaker 1: it's still building up to that level then out there yet,
37:00
Speaker 1: so we'll see if they get there. All right, Patrick,
37:04
Speaker 1: let's wrap it up there. Thanks so much for listening
37:07
Speaker 1: to everyone. This is Northside Territory. Make sure to subscribe,
37:12
Speaker 1: rate and review, and subscribe to the YouTube channel and
37:15
Speaker 1: subscribe to the Athletic for Patrick and I will be
37:17
Speaker 1: on top of the Cubs offseason gore all winter long.
37:20
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening and everybody, we really appreciate it. Thanks.
37:23
Speaker 1: Take care,