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S3E4 - Parenting Through Co-Parenting Struggles and Sibling Fights · Play Therapy Parenting: Real Parenting Questions Answered by a Child Therapist

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You're listening to the
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Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
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Hi,
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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
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The Kid Counselor.
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This is the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast where I give you insight,
0:15
awareness,
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and enlightenment about your parenting
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and your relationship with your kids.
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In today's episode,
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I am answering a question from Barry in the UK,
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but before we dive into that,
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I wanted to share an update,
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so I'm not sure if you all listened to the episode
0:32
that Jillian asked a question in Colorado about
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her daughter not sleeping in her own bed.
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But she sent an update,
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and I want to
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encourage you because this is very exciting.
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Let me read you parts of the email that she sent,
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and we'll celebrate together.
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I wanted to update you on how things are going.
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It took about a week,
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but she is now consistently sleeping in her bed without difficulty.
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No more homeless child outside my bedroom door.
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Thank you so much for your help.
1:00
I returned to previous episodes where I heard about
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nighttime struggles which helped me with appropriate verbiage.
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One night she made herself so sick,
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she vomited,
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which was a pleasure,
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but I did not cave.
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Jillian,
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huge high five and a huge congratulations
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and
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what
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I think this communicates is we know that the child-centered model works,
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we know that it's effective,
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and we know that when we have a confident plan
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and we feel prepared to tackle the struggles in our homes,
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we can be confident that we will have the outcome that we desire
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and Jillian,
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thank you for the update.
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That
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really does prove what we know.
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Which is that
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these strategies and tools and techniques are effective.
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We just have to stick to them
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and we have to
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be confident
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in what we're doing.
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So these work when we work,
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and thank you,
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Jillian for the update and letting me share that.
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OK,
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so let's get to Barry's question now.
2:00
And Barry's is about
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interacting in the CCPT manners and so reflecting feelings and providing limits.
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He's been executing those things but still having struggles.
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So Barry,
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I really appreciate the email.
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I'm gonna read parts of it and then we'll dive in together.
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I have two children,
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an 8 year old boy and a 6.5 year old girl.
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Their mother and I separated over 2 years
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ago and co-parenting with her is challenging.
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I believe that I am undermined or slandered when they go to their moms.
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And I can really struggle with them both sometimes.
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I find it challenging because it is just me parenting,
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and if they start shouting,
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hitting each other,
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calling names,
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it can feel like I don't have enough hands,
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mental agility,
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physical agility,
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or space to get a word in
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or keep them from hurting each other.
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Typically it is my son hitting either my daughter or myself.
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When he does it,
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I say,
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your sister is not for hitting.
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You can choose to hit the couch,
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but she is not for hitting.
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And then he says,
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yes,
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she is,
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and will continue trying to hit her while also calling her names like stupid.
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If I physically take him upstairs,
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it feels like I am abandoning her and giving him positive reinforcement.
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All right,
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so let me pause there.
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There's more to the email,
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but I don't want to get too far ahead,
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so we'll we'll kind of take this a little bit at a time.
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So let me start with the co-parenting
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scenario.
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That is a really common struggle.
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Many,
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many people
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share that with me at the center also through emails from listeners.
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And really one of the things that is encouraging about this parenting approach.
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Is that
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We can't control
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the other environments.
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But we don't have to.
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And so essentially what that means is,
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Barry,
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you control your household,
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you control your environment,
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you control your relationship with them.
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And
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you don't have to try to worry about what's happening over there.
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And if you are getting any kind of
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indication that
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things are being said over there that are not true,
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you remain completely neutral,
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you remain unemotional.
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And you say,
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I wasn't there.
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I'm not sure what mom told you,
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but I didn't say that.
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Or
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I wasn't there,
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I didn't hear what mom
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said that I did,
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but I didn't do that.
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And you don't get into an argument,
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you don't engage in any kind of power struggle.
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You just tell age appropriate truth
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and you make sure that they're aware
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that
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what they heard was not true.
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That is the easiest way to deal with that kind of scenario.
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You're going to remain unfazed
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by whatever,
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I mean,
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obviously it hurts,
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obviously it's hard,
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but outwardly
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you remain unfazed
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by whatever it is that the children say that they were told or that
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they think or that they feel because of what they've heard from someone else.
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It's really important that you are just truthful
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and direct.
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So.
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I wasn't there.
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I'm not sure exactly what was said,
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but I never said those words.
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And that is enough to make it clear that
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it's not necessarily truth just because
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they heard it somewhere.
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So that's how I would handle that first part.
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The second part is,
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yes,
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when it's 1 against 22 children against one parent,
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that is tricky.
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And it is often very difficult to feel like you can navigate those kinds of things.
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I think what's helpful is you are using
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child-centered language,
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you are using the limit setting language.
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So
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it sounds as though you might be missing the first piece of the limit though.
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You are not from what you emailed anyway,
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you're not reflecting
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the feeling,
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need,
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desire,
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or wish.
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So when your son gets angry and is hitting your daughter,
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there's a reason.
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So you need to say something along the lines of,
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you're really upset right now,
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or you're really angry at her,
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or you're irritated by what she said.
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whatever the scenario is,
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obviously it's going to be different depending on the context,
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but you want to make sure that you are including that
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first component because if we jump straight to the limit.
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We're missing the child feeling validated,
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and that's a really important piece because the
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child isn't wrong for feeling that way,
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it's the behavior that needs to be adjusted.
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So we wanna make sure that we validate that.
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So when your son starts hitting,
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instead of just jumping straight to your sister isn't for hitting,
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it needs to be,
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you're angry right now,
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but your sister is never for hitting.
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All right,
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now,
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Barry,
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when
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you feel like this is going sideways,
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which it can sometimes,
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it's important to keep in mind that you're going to set a limit 3 times.
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And if the child is unwilling or unable to comply after the 3rd time.
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Ultimate limit kicks in.
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So in that case,
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it becomes the if then choices.
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So if you choose
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to hit your sister,
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you're choosing X negative outcome.
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If you choose not to hit your sister,
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you're choosing positive outcome.
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Which do you choose?
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And that makes it very clear because when he says yes,
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she is,
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and then continues,
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he's willfully choosing not to comply with the limit.
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And if that happens 3 times,
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we go straight to ultimate limit,
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and
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the consequence needs to be tied to his currency.
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What matters to him?
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What's important to him?
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Is it
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TV time at night before bed?
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Is it reading books with you before he goes to sleep?
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Is it spending time with his friends?
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Itw whatever matters,
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is it dessert after dinner?
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I don't know.
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Dessert before dinner,
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eat dessert first,
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whatever.
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So,
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what,
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what is it that matters to him?
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It's,
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we label that his currency.
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That's what's going to be worked into the ultimate
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limit because it's very impactful when he realizes,
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oh.
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If I choose to hit her,
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I'm choosing not to have dessert tonight.
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That is not worth it,
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and it allows him to develop self-control and self-regulation.
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So we move to the ultimate limit setting if he's
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unwilling or unable to comply with the limit 3 times.
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When you said if you physically take him upstairs,
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that should not be
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the outcome when you provide an ultimate limit.
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You should not physically do anything.
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He has to learn to self-control.
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If you pick him up and carry him upstairs,
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you're teaching him.
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If you get as out of control as you want to get,
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you cross the line however many times,
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I will control your behavior for you.
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I'll just remove you from your sister.
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I'll just take you somewhere else and then you can't hit her anymore.
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He learns nothing about self-control in that scenario.
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Now you might say if you choose to hit your sister again,
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you choose for me to hold your hands so that you cannot hurt her.
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But that would be an extreme scenario.
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You would want it to be a currency-based limit most of the time.
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All right,
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so that tackled that portion of it.
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So now we're going to continue reading.
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When an accident happens,
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sometimes my daughter will call herself stupid and say that it's all her fault,
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which is heartbreaking in itself.
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But then my son will agree with her and pile on the name calling.
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It's one of my triggers,
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and I'm trying to unpack that,
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but in the moment I'm trying to say things like,
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you're angry at her,
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but she's not for name calling,
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and give him options like going to find space to say what he needs to.
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Then he just pushes buttons.
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All right,
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everything you're describing in your son's behavior
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is power and control driven.
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And so if you start filtering everything through that lens
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and you start seeing everything in light of that understanding,
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he is grasping at power and control because he
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feels that his life is out of his control.
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He has no control over the fact that his parents separated.
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He has no control over the fact that he goes back and forth between two homes now.
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He has no control over the fact that he's the oldest child
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and therefore more burden and responsibility falls on him.
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He has no control over the fact that you and your ex
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don't seem to be able to co-parent effectively.
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He has no control over the fact that she might say negative things about you to him.
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He,
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he,
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none of these things
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he has any control over.
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So therefore,
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when kids feel that their lives are out of control,
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they will grasp at any measure of power control they can get.
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Which is what he's doing.
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So you're really angry at her,
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but she's not for name calling.
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I would go a much broader household limit,
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so that might be an in the moment limit,
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but you can also at a neutral,
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calm,
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established time,
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say I just want to make you both aware of some household rules.
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In this household.
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People are not for name calling.
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And then that would be universal that it would apply to both of your children.
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In this household,
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people are never for hurting.
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In this household people are never for yelling at.
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You can establish household rules
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in a neutral moment
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that you then fall back on in any given scenario.
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So your sister is not for name calling,
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that is a situationally specific limit,
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but if you had the broad household limit already established,
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son,
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you know
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that in this household no one is for name calling.
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That will become a standard for everyone.
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Your daughter,
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your son and yourself will all abide by the household rules.
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Sometimes that's helpful to do
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in light of behaviors that are
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likely to take place.
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OK,
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so now we'll continue.
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I try to do 15 minutes each of special 1 to
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1 time some evenings while the other has a shower.
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Is it enough?
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Yes,
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we ideally wanna shoot for 30,
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but 15 is a helpful start.
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And so while one is in the shower,
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absolutely you make that a priority.
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You make sure that the child knows that they get to be in charge,
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they get to decide how that time is spent,
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and it's just
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special relationship building,
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connection building.
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Trust building,
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bond building time together.
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It absolutely is enough.
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It just needs to be consistent.
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A weekly part of the schedule,
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nothing gets in the way of it.
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That's very powerful.
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I feel like I'm a good dad.
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I spend time with them at their level,
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and I'm also a responsible parent,
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not just a fun one.
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I try to understand,
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validate,
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empathize,
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and 4 out of 5 times it works.
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Let me pause there.
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Barry,
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high five.
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I hope that that makes you feel very proud
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that 4 out of 5 times,
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doing what you've learned
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to do and,
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and being the kind of dad that they need you to be,
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4 out of 5 times it's effective.
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That's a huge win.
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I hope that you celebrate that.
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In the 1 in 5 times it doesn't,
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and I don't do something well,
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if I raise my voice or shout,
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it seems to galvanize their negative views of me,
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despite the fact that I try to repair with them.
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All right,
12:57
let's talk through that for a second.
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We know
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that in general,
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we know that psychology tells us.
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That if we have
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one negative event.
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We need an average of 7 positive events to counteract that.
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This is how we focus on the negative instead of the positive.
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This is a generalized component of the way that our brains work.
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So we have to have
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7 positive experiences to counteract 1 negative one.
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This is why child-centered play therapy as a
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parenting approach is so impactful and powerful,
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because it establishes consistent positive experiences
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as daily routine.
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And then the scales
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tip the other direction.
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So yes,
13:44
it's actually very normal
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that one negative event
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is going to be a big deal for your kids.
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But one of the rules of thumb that I teach that comes from the
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parent training curriculum,
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Landreth and Bratton's work,
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is what's most important may not be what you do,
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but what you do after what you did.
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So in those moments where you're not at your best and you
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may not use the skills like you wished you would have,
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it's not as important what you did in the moment,
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it's what's important what you did after what you did.
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So when you make amends,
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when you apologize,
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when you say,
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I know
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that
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I could have handled that differently.
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I know better than to yell at you.
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I shouldn't have shouted at you.
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I'm sorry.
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That repairs relationship,
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it gets fractured,
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but we can repair it.
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But also keep in mind the more positive experiences you create,
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the more that will naturally balance the scales a little bit.
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OK,
14:44
and then finally,
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there is a routine with it all.
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If I can get through the first few hours
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of the barrage with calm and rational responses,
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normally they reach a limit
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and the floodgates open,
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and once they cry,
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I know that afterwards they will be more relaxed and they will lean in.
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I've noticed that if I'm calm
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and they reach the floodgates,
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that is the key to breaking through to them and
15:06
then we're able to have relaxed quality time together.
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All right,
15:09
what that tells me is
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Both of your kids
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are internalizing.
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Your son is more of an externalizer than your daughter,
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but they're both internalizing a lot of emotion,
15:20
a lot of stress,
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a lot of tension,
15:21
a lot of anxiety,
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a lot of angst.
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And
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when you see the power and control,
15:27
and when you see the argument and the conflict and
15:30
the disagreeing and all the things that you're describing,
15:33
it's their
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manifestation of their internal struggle.
15:38
Kids will always show us their pain through their behavior.
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And so when they're behaving that way,
15:45
it's because they have all of this junk that they're carrying around.
15:48
And what you're describing,
15:50
when they reach their breaking point,
15:52
as you say,
15:52
and the floodgates open and they cry,
15:54
it's a release.
15:56
Think of it as the thread wrapped around the spool really,
16:00
really,
16:01
really tightly.
16:01
Well,
16:01
when the thread snaps,
16:03
all the tension gets released.
16:05
So when they have that moment where it all comes flooding out,
16:08
of course they're more relaxed,
16:10
of course they're more calm,
16:11
of course they're more relational
16:13
because they finally have had a channel and an outlet for all of that.
16:18
That's a very healthy and appropriate
16:20
process,
16:21
but we want to get to a point where they don't need that.
16:23
It doesn't get to that point.
16:25
So that's why the pillars are so important.
16:27
That's why reflecting their feelings,
16:29
providing them with choices,
16:30
setting limits when needed,
16:32
using encouragement phrases,
16:33
the reflective responses,
16:35
the be with attitudes.
16:38
Those are the kinds of things that we cultivate
16:40
with kids
16:41
so that they don't
16:43
build all of that up.
16:44
If they build an emotional vocabulary,
16:46
they can get their needs met.
16:48
If they build self-esteem,
16:50
they feel more confident to handle what's going on.
16:53
There's all kinds of outcomes
16:55
that are tied to the use of these parenting strategies.
16:59
So that's why we're working so hard to be very adherent to
17:03
the child-centered play therapy approach.
17:06
And then finally you said it feels like my son is getting more and more oppositional.
17:10
He back talks a lot he searches for my buttons he disagrees.
17:14
He won't take guidance
17:15
and instead he changes things
17:17
to something he know will hurt more.
17:20
All right,
17:21
he's grasping at any measure of control that he can get.
17:25
And he's showing you that
17:27
he's hurting.
17:28
He's showing you that he's angry,
17:30
that he has all kinds of emotions,
17:33
and the most helpful way to work on that is quality time.
17:38
Unconditional acceptance
17:40
and adherence to these principles,
17:42
the pillars,
17:42
the reflective responses,
17:43
and the be with attitudes,
17:45
the more you are able to lean into those.
17:49
The more he will naturally behave in self-enhancing ways.
17:52
We know this to be true.
17:54
So Barry,
17:54
I hope that encourages you.
17:56
I hope that encourages all of you because I know how consistently
18:00
these messages
18:01
are
18:01
are emailed to me.
18:03
You're not alone,
18:04
Barry.
18:04
Lots and lots of people are in this scenario
18:07
and
18:08
it's tricky,
18:08
you know,
18:09
it's hard to feel like,
18:10
oh my gosh,
18:11
I just don't know
18:12
how we're gonna get through this.
18:14
You will,
18:15
you have to have
18:16
a framework,
18:17
which you do.
18:18
You have to have a strategy,
18:19
which you do.
18:21
And you have to trust the process that
18:23
kids will naturally behave in more self enhancing ways
18:26
when we have stronger and more connected relationships with them.
18:30
So I hope that that gives you some encouragement,
18:33
Barry,
18:33
and you're able to make some changes.
18:35
Keep me updated,
18:36
just like Jillian sent me an update.
18:37
I would love to hear from you.
18:38
If any of you all would like to email me a question,
18:41
reach out to say hello.
18:43
pose a scenario that you want me to chat through with you,
18:46
please reach out brenna at the kid counselor.com.
18:49
Have a great week.
18:50
Love on your kids.
18:51
I love y'all.
18:51
We'll talk again soon.
18:52
Bye.
18:54
Thank you for listening to
18:55
the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
18:59
For more episodes and just subscribe to our newsletter,
19:02
please go to www.playtherapyparenting.com.