Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #648 The Truth Will Set You Free

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#648 The Truth Will Set You Free · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
0:05
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the.
0:07
Speaker 3: Time poor parent who just once answers.
0:10
Speaker 4: Now, whatever reason they're doing it for, ultimately, what they're
0:14
Speaker 4: trying to do is make this situation go away as
0:16
Speaker 4: painlessly as they possibly can, so that we can just
0:18
Speaker 4: get on.
0:19
Speaker 2: With our lives again.
0:20
Speaker 3: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
0:23
Speaker 3: and dad.
0:23
Speaker 2: You know that.
0:24
Speaker 4: Every now and again, I love to use this podcast
0:26
Speaker 4: as a platform to pretend that I'm still in radio
0:29
Speaker 4: like I was twenty years ago. I mean, it was
0:30
Speaker 4: a long time ago, but you know, I can't help
0:33
Speaker 4: it every now and again.
0:35
Speaker 3: I haven't lost it my own.
0:36
Speaker 4: I know, but I just want to that the topic
0:38
Speaker 4: of today's conversation, based on an email that we've received
0:40
Speaker 4: from one of our listeners via podcasts at Happy Families
0:44
Speaker 4: dot com. Dot makes me think of Billy Joel, but
0:50
Speaker 4: it also makes me think.
0:51
Speaker 2: Of Charles and Eddie.
0:58
Speaker 4: But it also makes me think of the Mix. And
1:04
Speaker 4: then there's that other song by Fleetwood, Matt and I
1:11
Speaker 4: could keep on going, but they're the big ones. I
1:13
Speaker 4: can't help myself because today's topic is, like I said,
1:17
Speaker 4: in response to an email that we had from Emma,
1:19
Speaker 4: who says, and I quote, we are having a lot
1:21
Speaker 4: of trouble understanding why our eight year old is constantly lying.
1:25
Speaker 4: It can be about absolutely trivial things or the very
1:28
Speaker 4: age appropriate lies to get out of trouble. I find
1:31
Speaker 4: it very hurtful, and unlike any of our other three
1:34
Speaker 4: girls behavior, lying seems to be our biggest behavior challenge
1:38
Speaker 4: with this daughter. Any strategies to help would be so
1:40
Speaker 4: very appreciated. So Kylie, today we're having a conversation about
1:44
Speaker 4: honesty and teaching our children not to lie. Let me
1:50
Speaker 4: ask you this though, do you remember House? You remember
1:52
Speaker 4: the TV show we used to watch House? Yeah, you
1:55
Speaker 4: remember the one phrase rank doctor?
1:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, the cranky doctor.
1:58
Speaker 4: Do you remember the one phrase He's actually pretty but
2:00
Speaker 4: he had the great American accent, the whole ac throw.
2:01
Speaker 4: I never knew till I heard him speaking in English
2:04
Speaker 4: in British with the British accents. Hear him speaking with
2:07
Speaker 4: the British accent, and I remember going, Wow, he really
2:09
Speaker 4: does a good British accent. And then I discovered that
2:11
Speaker 4: he's British and he was speaking with an American accent
2:13
Speaker 4: in the series. But do you remember the one line
2:15
Speaker 4: that he had about every patient.
2:16
Speaker 2: That came in.
2:17
Speaker 3: You don't remember, No, I don't.
2:19
Speaker 2: He used to say. Everybody lies. The only variable is
2:23
Speaker 2: but what do you believe it? Do you lie? Important question?
2:26
Speaker 3: Do you not intentionally?
2:28
Speaker 2: Really?
2:30
Speaker 4: So you're saying that you unintentionally lie? We just you
2:32
Speaker 4: accidentally say the wrong thing. You sound like one of
2:35
Speaker 4: our children right now, I accidently light I didn't mean
2:37
Speaker 4: to mislead you.
2:38
Speaker 2: It just kind of did. It happened to be my advantage.
2:42
Speaker 3: Well, I'm reading some books and understanding that our perceptions
2:47
Speaker 3: are quite skewed at times, Yes, in our efforts to
2:50
Speaker 3: preserve ourselves.
2:52
Speaker 4: Right, So what you're reading about his self deception the
2:54
Speaker 4: way we don't just lie to other people, we actually
2:56
Speaker 4: lie to ourselves.
2:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but we believe it's truth because if we
3:00
Speaker 3: don't believe it's true, then what.
3:01
Speaker 2: Does that say about us?
3:03
Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
3:04
Speaker 4: So we don't actually believe it's truth, but we lie
3:06
Speaker 4: to ourselves about the truth that it isn't so that
3:08
Speaker 4: we can think that it is so that we can
3:10
Speaker 4: feel good about ourselves, because otherwise would feel terrible about
3:12
Speaker 4: ourselves because we're awful people. Is that what you're saying
3:15
Speaker 4: yeah right, so 'p lifting you're glad that you listen
3:18
Speaker 4: to this podcast morning. I reckon it would be fascinating
3:24
Speaker 4: to do a challenge and see how long you can
3:26
Speaker 4: go without lying, without a single lie escaping your lips.
3:30
Speaker 2: I reckon it would be very, very hard to get through.
3:32
Speaker 4: I was going to say a day, but I'm going
3:34
Speaker 4: to suggest both you and I work pretty hard on
3:36
Speaker 4: being transparent and honest and not shying away from hard conversations.
3:40
Speaker 3: Look, everybody asks you how you're doing, and more times
3:42
Speaker 3: than not, I'll.
3:42
Speaker 4: Say fine, were you saying you're not fine?
3:45
Speaker 3: No, often I'm not Why Why are you asking me? Why?
3:50
Speaker 4: Why do you lie about how you're doing? I mean,
3:52
Speaker 4: this is the whole thing with are you okay?
3:54
Speaker 2: Day right? How you doing? Are you okay?
3:57
Speaker 3: Because I don't have the capacity to have a conversation
3:59
Speaker 3: with you right now, or I don't feel you're genuine
4:03
Speaker 3: in your request to find out how I'm.
4:05
Speaker 4: Doing okay, So it's timing, and it's also a feeling
4:08
Speaker 4: of safety. Yeah, is there anything.
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Speaker 3: Else a concern about judgment?
4:12
Speaker 2: Yeah?
4:12
Speaker 4: Right, okay, which sort of ties back in with the
4:14
Speaker 4: idea of safety. So I think if we're going to
4:16
Speaker 4: answer Emma's question, we need to pause and consider.
4:19
Speaker 2: Why we lie.
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Speaker 4: If House is right, if everybody lies, and if we
4:23
Speaker 4: do deceive our own selves, then it's a really important consideration.
4:27
Speaker 4: It's a really important question. And if we understand why
4:31
Speaker 4: we lie, it can help us to then step into
4:34
Speaker 4: the world of our children and get why they might
4:37
Speaker 4: be lying.
4:37
Speaker 2: So when you think.
4:39
Speaker 4: About these little liars that we've got running around our
4:41
Speaker 4: ankles every now and again, and Emma certainly is dealing
4:44
Speaker 4: with one of her children, and I shouldn't talk about
4:46
Speaker 4: our kids like that, because they're not just little lives,
4:49
Speaker 4: they're also cherubs. Why do you think kids are most
4:53
Speaker 4: likely to lie? Do you think that they're engaging in
4:56
Speaker 4: self deception? Are they trying to preserve their identity in
4:58
Speaker 4: the same way that you or I am?
5:00
Speaker 3: No, I don't think they have the same cognition.
5:02
Speaker 2: No, they don't. They don't, especially at the age of eight.
5:05
Speaker 3: This is more about either being fearful of getting in.
5:10
Speaker 4: Trouble, right, And so Emma said exactly that in her
5:14
Speaker 4: email to us. She highlighted that specific issue. But why
5:18
Speaker 4: else do you reckon they'd be lying?
5:20
Speaker 3: Well, like, there's another thing they'd be concerned about as
5:22
Speaker 3: a rupture in the relationship.
5:23
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Yeah.
5:24
Speaker 3: So I tell mom that I've done this, and then
5:27
Speaker 3: she gets angry at me, maybe she won't love me anymore.
5:29
Speaker 4: So I would write that down as they're scared that
5:31
Speaker 4: they won't be loved. Not only are they afraid that
5:33
Speaker 4: they'll be in trouble, but they're scared that they will
5:35
Speaker 4: become unlovable.
5:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
5:38
Speaker 4: A couple of other reasons that I can think of
5:39
Speaker 4: that kids might lie to us.
5:41
Speaker 2: One of them is.
5:42
Speaker 4: When they think they've got this, Like I know I'm
5:45
Speaker 4: in over my head, I know things aren't working out
5:47
Speaker 4: so well.
5:48
Speaker 2: I know that I've kind of just got red handed.
5:49
Speaker 4: But I've got this, I've got it under control. I
5:52
Speaker 4: can get my way through this. It's going to be okay.
5:54
Speaker 4: I want to demonstrate my confidence, my capability. I want
5:57
Speaker 4: to just be independent. I don't want interference from the
6:01
Speaker 4: big people in my life. And so there's that line
6:04
Speaker 4: where they think that they've got it, they think that
6:06
Speaker 4: they can handle it, and then they end up in
6:08
Speaker 4: deeper and deeper water as a result. And the other
6:10
Speaker 4: reason that I think that our kids lie is because
6:14
Speaker 4: we've taught them with all of our white lives, with
6:16
Speaker 4: all of our hedging and fudging. Oh you can do
6:19
Speaker 4: that on the weekend. I will come back here another time. No, no, no,
6:22
Speaker 4: I wasn't on my phone doing that. I was doing
6:24
Speaker 4: this instead. It's one of those important things that I
6:26
Speaker 4: have to do, all of the little white lives that
6:28
Speaker 4: we come up with. I'll be with you in two minutes.
6:30
Speaker 4: I've just got to finish this thing, and I'll be
6:31
Speaker 4: with you in two minutes. I think that we teach
6:34
Speaker 4: them as well that honesty is not as valuable as
6:38
Speaker 4: we sometimes make it.
6:39
Speaker 2: Out to be.
6:39
Speaker 4: So we've got, example, we've got afraid of being in trouble,
6:42
Speaker 4: we've got afraid that they're not going to be loved,
6:44
Speaker 4: and we've got the feeling that they've got it all together.
6:47
Speaker 4: To me, when I read an email like Emma's, I
6:49
Speaker 4: think to myself, this is probably why we've got an
6:51
Speaker 4: eight year old who's telling FIBs constantly lying even about
6:55
Speaker 4: the trivial things. I mean, it even makes more sense
6:57
Speaker 4: with the trivial things, because they want to prove that
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Speaker 4: they've got this the control.
7:00
Speaker 2: That they're big enough that they can handle it.
7:02
Speaker 4: So they're gonna lie you might say it's cold outside,
7:04
Speaker 4: and they'll say, well, I'm I'm really hot, even though
7:07
Speaker 4: they've got goose pimples, goose goosebumps on their skin, goose pimples.
7:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you not call them goose pimples goose pimples? Well,
7:15
Speaker 1: I've heard people call them goose pimples, and I don't
7:17
Speaker 1: know why, but I call them goose pimples. And I'm
7:20
Speaker 1: not even telling a lie about it. So here's the thing, kylie.
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Speaker 1: Lying is actually a developmental achievement. We should be excited
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Speaker 1: when our kids can lie.
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Speaker 4: Tell me why, I'm just trying to put a positive
7:30
Speaker 4: spin on it. Well, what it really shows is if
7:33
Speaker 4: your child knows how to lie, it means that cognitively
7:36
Speaker 4: they've gotten to a point where they know that they
7:40
Speaker 4: can manipulate information. They can hold information that's different to
7:44
Speaker 4: your information without passing that along. You see the world
7:47
Speaker 4: differently with them. They're developing this thing that we call
7:49
Speaker 4: theory of mind. Now, researchers argue that this difference in perception,
7:54
Speaker 4: the ability to say I'm seeing it this way and
7:55
Speaker 4: they're seeing it that way, and I get it, and
7:57
Speaker 4: I can hold both of those perspectives At the same time,
8:00
Speaker 4: researchers think that that comes in somewhere around four and
8:02
Speaker 4: a half, five, maybe five and a half. But in
8:03
Speaker 4: the last year or two that's been called into question.
8:06
Speaker 4: And that's why we see kids doing really lousy lies
8:10
Speaker 4: when they're only three, four, five, six, and the LN
8:12
Speaker 4: becomes a bit more sophisticated when they get to eight, nine, ten,
8:16
Speaker 4: because that theory of mind capacity is really.
8:19
Speaker 2: Starting to embed itself. It's starting to build itself.
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Speaker 4: In to the child's way of being, the child's way
8:26
Speaker 4: of thinking.
8:29
Speaker 3: We actually had a pretty i'm going to say cool
8:33
Speaker 3: experience because we actually watched this play out with the
8:36
Speaker 3: kids the other week. One of our children had done
8:40
Speaker 3: the wrong thing, but she recognized that if she owned
8:43
Speaker 3: up to it, that she would probably get in a
8:45
Speaker 3: bit more trouble than her little sister, and so she
8:47
Speaker 3: convinced her little sister to take the blame, to.
8:51
Speaker 2: Take the fall.
8:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, And her.
8:53
Speaker 3: Little sister did it with so so much sincerity that
8:58
Speaker 3: I believed her in spite of the fact that it
9:01
Speaker 3: actually went against her nature to do what she was
9:04
Speaker 3: saying that she had done. But she was just so
9:08
Speaker 3: contrite and so apologetic for doing the wrong thing. And
9:13
Speaker 3: it wasn't until we kind of sat back and went,
9:16
Speaker 3: this doesn't make sense. And finally the bigger one, the
9:20
Speaker 3: bigger one actually came and told us what had happened.
9:24
Speaker 3: But like I said, it was cool because as I'm
9:27
Speaker 3: looking at this and dissecting and we're having this conversation,
9:30
Speaker 3: I'm watching I'm actually watching in real time those cognitive
9:35
Speaker 3: wheels turning in each of the kid's minds as they
9:38
Speaker 3: try to negate this challenging situation that they've found themselves
9:43
Speaker 3: in and what is the best and most pain free
9:46
Speaker 3: way to get through it right?
9:49
Speaker 4: And that's ultimately where line is coming from. Whether it's
9:51
Speaker 4: trying to prove that they can do something in their competent,
9:53
Speaker 4: or trying to avoid loss of parental love, or whether
9:57
Speaker 4: it's trying to avoid getting in trouble or whatever reason
9:59
Speaker 4: they'd doing it for, Ultimately, what they're trying to do
10:03
Speaker 4: is make this situation go away as painlessly as they
10:05
Speaker 4: possibly can, so that we can just get on with
10:07
Speaker 4: our lives again. I think that we need to talk
10:09
Speaker 4: about how we can help our kids when they are
10:11
Speaker 4: being dishonest, What conversations we need to have, how we
10:14
Speaker 4: can guide them towards more integrity in the way they
10:17
Speaker 4: engage with us.
10:18
Speaker 3: Well, we already spoke about this situation on the podcast
10:22
Speaker 3: a week or so ago, but the conversation we were
10:24
Speaker 3: able to have with our daughter after she told the
10:28
Speaker 3: truth yes, was such a powerful one because it reinforced
10:33
Speaker 3: to her that no matter what she does, she's loved. Okay,
10:37
Speaker 3: there is literally nothing she could do that would stop
10:40
Speaker 3: us from loving her.
10:41
Speaker 4: So if we step through what needs to happen, the
10:44
Speaker 4: first thing I would say is we've got to keep
10:46
Speaker 4: our emotions in check because there's something, at least for me,
10:49
Speaker 4: something really I don't like the word triggering, but for me,
10:53
Speaker 4: when it comes to dishonesty, it's probably the thing that
10:54
Speaker 4: sets me off more than anything else.
10:56
Speaker 3: Why do you think that's the case.
10:57
Speaker 4: I don't know, but there's just something about I feel
11:00
Speaker 4: as though we don't If we can't be honest in
11:02
Speaker 4: our relationship, we don't have a relationship.
11:03
Speaker 2: If you feel like you have to lie.
11:05
Speaker 4: To me, it demonstrates that you don't think I'm going
11:08
Speaker 4: to act in your best interest, or you have interests
11:10
Speaker 4: that are deeply differentiated from mine. As a result of that,
11:16
Speaker 4: we can't be on the same page. We can't be aligned.
11:18
Speaker 3: But you're expecting an eight year old to think like
11:21
Speaker 3: you think.
11:21
Speaker 2: I know, that's a big call, isn't it.
11:23
Speaker 4: But if I can help my eight year old to
11:26
Speaker 4: trust me, and this is what I want Emma to
11:28
Speaker 4: really emphasize here, if we can help our eight year
11:30
Speaker 4: old to trust us, to know that we are there
11:32
Speaker 4: to act in their best interests, then they will not
11:35
Speaker 4: feel a need to lie to avoid getting in trouble.
11:37
Speaker 4: They'll see us as their advocate, not their adversary. So
11:41
Speaker 4: the only way that we can do that is to
11:43
Speaker 4: stay level, calm, and cool even if they do lie.
11:47
Speaker 3: So in most cases this will be probably actually not
11:50
Speaker 3: dealing with it in the moment. Yes, for most of us,
11:53
Speaker 3: we're not going to be calm, call and collected.
11:55
Speaker 2: That's right.
11:56
Speaker 4: We have a society wide expectation that people will tell
11:59
Speaker 4: the truth. That's at the very core. I mean, trust
12:03
Speaker 4: in a relationship makes everything work, It makes things more efficient.
12:06
Speaker 4: When there's no trust, that's when you start getting lawyers
12:08
Speaker 4: involved and everything gets costly, not just financially but emotionally
12:12
Speaker 4: and socially. A lack of trust brings everything to a
12:15
Speaker 4: grinding halt while we work out every single detail of
12:19
Speaker 4: every single thing. And it's the same in our families.
12:21
Speaker 4: When there's no trust. Our child says I want to
12:24
Speaker 4: go and do this, and we say, well, tell me.
12:25
Speaker 2: What that means. Where will you be, who will you
12:27
Speaker 2: be with? How long will you be gone?
12:29
Speaker 3: Now?
12:29
Speaker 4: They might be normal questions to ask anyway, but we
12:31
Speaker 4: start to interrogate. Rather than having a quick conversation to
12:34
Speaker 4: check in that everything's okay, we start to really interrogate
12:37
Speaker 4: the matter, really dive into the nitty gritty and pull
12:40
Speaker 4: them up on any inconsistencies. When there's trust, you actually
12:43
Speaker 4: you'll often let inconsistencies slide because you know that it
12:46
Speaker 4: was just a slip of the tongue. It wasn't actually
12:48
Speaker 4: anything meaningful. So if a child lies to your number one,
12:52
Speaker 4: keep your emotions balanced.
12:54
Speaker 2: Stay in check, keep it level.
12:56
Speaker 4: It might mean you say, at the moment, I'm struggling
12:58
Speaker 4: with the way this conversation is going. It doesn't seem
13:00
Speaker 4: right to me. I'm going to step out until I
13:03
Speaker 4: can take a big, deep breath and come back in integrity.
13:07
Speaker 4: Telling the truth, being honest is really important in our family.
13:10
Speaker 4: And you step out, another thing to do is that
13:13
Speaker 4: perhaps you can let your children know that you understand
13:17
Speaker 4: that they are struggling to understand the difference between what's
13:20
Speaker 4: true and what they wish was true. So if they're
13:22
Speaker 4: lying about something, instead of challenging them on it and saying,
13:25
Speaker 4: why do you always have to lie? I think that
13:27
Speaker 4: it's really reasonable to say you wish that was true,
13:31
Speaker 4: don't you wouldn't it be fantastic if what is true
13:35
Speaker 4: and what you wish were true, we're exactly the same thing.
13:38
Speaker 4: What you wish though isn't how it actually is. And
13:41
Speaker 4: you know that and I know that. And I found
13:42
Speaker 4: that specific phrase to be really helpful in conversations with
13:45
Speaker 4: the kids.
13:46
Speaker 2: You know this and I know this.
13:48
Speaker 4: It kind of just brings them back right here right now.
13:52
Speaker 4: It's one of those things where that I don't go,
13:53
Speaker 4: you don't know that, and I know something different.
13:55
Speaker 2: They kind of.
13:56
Speaker 4: Go, yeah, actually, I do know that, and I know
13:58
Speaker 4: that you know that as well.
13:59
Speaker 2: It helps soften all of that.
14:02
Speaker 3: Well. In doing that, what you're actually giving them is
14:06
Speaker 3: the empathy that they need, right instead of having them
14:10
Speaker 3: feel like they have to justify the lie that they've told.
14:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, another compassionate way to do that is, let's say
14:18
Speaker 4: there's your treat, your treat that was in the fridge
14:21
Speaker 4: that you've been saving for Sunday night, that special chocolate
14:25
Speaker 4: that you were given as a gift. Suddenly it disappears
14:28
Speaker 4: and the wrapping ends up in the bin. And what
14:30
Speaker 4: you can say to your child when your child says,
14:32
Speaker 4: I didn't eat it, and you've checked with everyone else
14:34
Speaker 4: in the house, and you know that nobody else did.
14:36
Speaker 4: It was only that child that was home, and it
14:38
Speaker 4: somehow managed to get eaten in the time that you
14:40
Speaker 4: were out, and that child was the only one at home.
14:42
Speaker 4: You can just say something like, well, I've never seen
14:44
Speaker 4: that happen before. I've never seen the chocolate eat itself
14:47
Speaker 4: and put its wrapper in the bin when no one
14:49
Speaker 4: else was home except for one person.
14:51
Speaker 2: That's miraculous.
14:53
Speaker 4: Like you can make light of it, you can keep
14:55
Speaker 4: it nice and gentle, but you're sending a really clear
14:57
Speaker 4: message I've never seen it happen before, because it just
15:00
Speaker 4: doesn't stack up. There's no parsimonious reason for this to
15:03
Speaker 4: have happened other than we've got some dishonesty. And I
15:06
Speaker 4: think the most important thing, in spite of those fun
15:10
Speaker 4: alternative ways of dealing with dishonesty. I think the most
15:12
Speaker 4: important thing is just to explain the impact on the relationship.
15:16
Speaker 4: When we do that really gently, really softly and kindly,
15:18
Speaker 4: when we say to our kids, if you lie to me,
15:22
Speaker 4: I can't believe you. If I can't believe you, we
15:24
Speaker 4: don't have a relationship. I have to follow you everywhere,
15:27
Speaker 4: I have to check up on you all the time.
15:29
Speaker 4: It makes life hard for us all. When we explain
15:32
Speaker 4: the impact on the relationship, the costs to the relationship,
15:35
Speaker 4: our kids get it eventually, but more than anything, for
15:39
Speaker 4: Emma and anyone else who's got a child who's lying,
15:42
Speaker 4: it's important to highlight that so long as we treat
15:45
Speaker 4: our child with love, with unconditionality, and continue to teach
15:49
Speaker 4: them gently and patiently, they grow out of it. Lying
15:53
Speaker 4: is to a very large degree an issue of age
15:58
Speaker 4: and inexperience and immaturity, And as they become more experienced
16:02
Speaker 4: and more mature, it's true that they'll still lie about
16:04
Speaker 4: some stuff. Plenty of aodo lessons and plenty of adults
16:06
Speaker 4: still lie about things, but the lies will not be
16:10
Speaker 4: as destructive to relationships. If we get this right in
16:12
Speaker 4: the early years.
16:15
Speaker 3: For me, I think that regardless of what the challenge
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Speaker 3: is that we're having with our children, the number one
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Speaker 3: thing to focus on is the relationship. At the moment,
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Speaker 3: we're talking about lying, but it's actually about trust. That's right,
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Speaker 3: and everything that we I guess are challenged by with
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Speaker 3: our children comes down to having that relationship of trust,
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Speaker 3: a trust that you've got their best interest at heart,
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Speaker 3: that you love them no matter what, and that you're
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Speaker 3: going to do everything in your power to keep them safe.
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Speaker 3: And so if we can kind of just take the
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Speaker 3: heat of the lying and focus more heavily on the
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Speaker 3: relationship and building that sense of trust, then hopefully, over
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Speaker 3: time lying actually becomes obsolete. It no longer plays a
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Speaker 3: part in your relationship because your children just know.
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Speaker 2: Exactly well, Emma.
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Speaker 4: We really really do hope that this has been a
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Speaker 4: helpful conversation as we seek to offer some gentle guidance
17:18
Speaker 4: in dealing with an eight year old who has a
17:21
Speaker 4: flexible relationship with the truth. The Happy Family's podcast is
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Speaker 4: produced by Justin Rowland from Bridge Media.
17:26
Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our
17:26
Speaker 4: Executive producer, and for more information about making your family happier,
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Speaker 4: we'd love for you to join US at happy families
17:32
Speaker 4: dot com dot au, or on our Facebook page at
17:34
Speaker 4: doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families