Latest / Through the Sh#t with Jen McDowell / Ursula Taylor | From Righteous Rage to Self-Forgiveness

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Ursula Taylor | From Righteous Rage to Self-Forgiveness · Through the Sh#t with Jen McDowell

• speaker-0: Where was the point that you realized like, oops, I'm in this shit and I had a misstep? speaker-1: Yeah, I think for me, I realized I was in the shit. So I like at first just piled on more shit. Cause I'm like, I'm already in the shit. So let's have a shit party. speaker-0: Welcome, I'm Jen McDowell and you're listening to Through the Shit, a podcast for anyone going through the shit and the people who love them. In every episode, we'll hear a new story of loss, hope and resilience and how going through the shit led to something greater. So if you're in the shit now and feeling lost or alone, disconnected from your bad-ass self or in need of an ember of hope to keep putting one foot in front of the other, you're in the right place. So settle in, prepare to be moved and inspired and welcome Welcome, everybody. We're here for the latest episode of Through the Shit, where we hear stories of triumph over tragedy and all the amazing things that can happen by going through the shit. Our guest today is my dear friend Ursula Taylor, who's going to be talking with us about a misunderstanding with someone close to her that caused her to work through deep feelings of betrayal and taught her lessons of self-forgiveness. So, Ursula, welcome and thank you for being here. speaker-1: Thank you for having me, Jen. speaker-0: Alright, well let's tell everybody little about you. So, Ursula is a consultant and former litigator, and she now helps clients avoid the cost, drain, and uncertainty of internal and external conflict retention. While her background is litigation, today Ursula uses objectives and methods that are not yet integrated into traditional legal systems. Ursula understands conflict is always emanating from human emotion. and leverages her emotional intelligence and intuition to achieve efficient and sustaining outcomes for clients. Ursula also facilitates workshops and trainings to support leaders and teams in effectively navigating disputes, strengthening relationships, and avoiding internal breakdowns. Ursula helps organizations realize conflict as opportunity for growth. Ursula, welcome so much. speaker-1: Hi, thank you. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, listen, you know, everybody who has been listening to this podcast knows what my perspective is on this idea of what it means to go through the shit. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about what that phrase means to you. speaker-1: Yeah, I love that phrase. for me, through the shit, I mean, I think the important word is through, right? We all have shit, big and small, every single day. And we have the big ones that kind of knock us on our ass, and we have the small ones. But are we moving through it? Are we getting to the other side? So for me, through the shit is when we've actually learned the lesson. grown from the opportunity. Actually taken in. when needed to be taken in. And then you don't experience it again. My belief is that if you don't get through the shit, the shit becomes a pattern in your life. speaker-0: Yeah. Mm, okay. I feel like there's a lot there, because I feel like sometimes my ship repeats itself, so... ⁓ But before we dig into that, are you ready? You want to tell me your ship? speaker-1: Yay! Yeah, I can share. So I had one this week and I got your email to prepare for this around the same time I was dealing with this. And yeah, it was my partner, ⁓ a misunderstanding and I saw some communications that didn't feel good to me. It felt like a betrayal, ⁓ communications with another person and plans with another person that were sort of not disclosed to me in a way that didn't feel good. you know, it brought up a lot of feelings for me. and a lot of lessons too, and a lot of growth as I sort of felt into it. And I view conflict differently, I view tension differently than most people. And I have practices in my own life that I bring to my clients that are more holistic and introspective, and they're powerful and effective. But in this instance, I was going through the shit and I lost my shit. I really lost my shit. I got really upset with this person and I rage texted him. I rage texted him for a long time. And in the moments, I sort of knew this isn't me, this isn't peace, this isn't a high choice, but it was just what happened. And ⁓ the next day I was processing it, I still felt a little righteous, which, you know, and then I'm quickly like, righteousness isn't the solution, why am I feeling righteousness? And I was having a hard time and I realized I have to forgive myself. I haven't forgiven myself. And the lesson for me, the bigger lesson, I mean, there's a few, but one that comes out that I think is really important for your audience members is the importance of self-forgiveness and compassion for self and how that has to happen first or nothing else will be productive. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for sharing this story and it brings up so much for me. And I think one of the things that you talked about that let's start with is this idea of small shit. You some of the people who come on this podcast talk about some big momentous thing that happens, but it's not necessarily just big shit that we deal with in the course of our lives. You know, one of the things that I think about is like that day where just everything seems to go wrong. And, you know, one thing just is like the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's the day that you get the speeding ticket, you get yelled at by a coworker or a client or something. And then like you have to go to the grocery store in the pouring down rain and your bag breaks and your groceries are all over the sidewalk or whatever. like, how do you recover from the small shit? So yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, the most important thing is to stop powering through. Powering through will not help you. If there's a small ripple, a small upset, we sort of think, I'll make myself feel better if I can have some control over my day and my life. Let me plow through this to-do list. Let me get things done. Let me achieve to satiate this feeling. That doesn't work. What you have to do is you have to stop. That's the most important thing. You have to stop. Stop. Stop what you're doing. Stop writing. Stop texting. Stop trying to achieve or accomplish and go inward, go inward with yourself. If you wanna reset this day and this series of happenings, you've gotta be able to stop when it's small and go inward and just pause with yourself. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I understand that completely. One of the things that I hear so much from people often who are high performing type A personalities, they have a lot of responsibilities, a lot of obligations, even, you know, in that scenario I gave where they're coming home carrying the groceries and they're soaking wet, there's a family, there's something at home that needs attention. And so how do you stop when you feel like the world is spinning off its axis? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, you just have to make that commitment to yourself. I mean, and this gets back to another theme of mine, which is the prioritization of yourself is key to any relationship. And that sounds, you know, antithetical to what we're taught. Like, ⁓ no, we need to give to others, we need to be generous with our time and energy, we need to take care of other people, we need to deny ourselves for the sake of our children or other people we care about. But that actually doesn't work. You have to prioritize yourself. you have to give to yourself. So whether that's a one minute breathing exercise or really getting mindful on your commute home, just take the space to go inward with yourself. That's how you'll be able to show up for your children after work or show up for your loved ones after a stressful day. You've got to have that time to reset. And my best days are usually the days where I start off with some mindfulness or meditation or exercise or something. And then I bring that back in around three or four in the afternoon. which is when it starts usually kind of elevating for me. And then again, at night before bed. ⁓ And that's what kind of keeps me grounded and neutral throughout the day. speaker-0: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so it's this real idea of a consistent grounding practice that you can go back to over and over again. ⁓ Another thing that I often hear from people is this idea of like they've gone through the shit and ⁓ the consistent grounding practice or routine or ritual that they had before sometimes doesn't work. So I'm curious if you have any perspective on that and what advice you might be giving to listeners in those instances. speaker-1: family. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's important that you have to deal with first things first. And guilt and shame are big. They're always self-imposed and they are invisible. So you have to take that moment to yourself and feel into what's coming up for you and make the decision and use the words. ⁓ Because our words are powerful, our choices are powerful within ourselves. So literally a strategy I give people is make the choice. Say the feeling, so you've stopped, you've gone inward, say the feeling out loud. I feel guilty, I feel guilty, I feel bad, I feel guilty. Saying that out loud creates some distance. And then make the choice, make the choice to bring in something different. It's not like a, it's not a, we think that the way through a conflict or a difficult situation is self-recrimination for some of us. I am bad, I am wrong, I can't do that again. I'm gonna try harder next time. No, because you're still carrying the fear-based emotion. You're still carrying the guilt and the shame. If you wanna move through it, can't be, ⁓ Ursula, you're such an idiot. You shouldn't have rage texted this person you care about. That was wrong and beat myself up. I'm going nowhere with that. I'm going nowhere with that because I'm staying in that sort of like fear-based emotion. It's still living within me. So the first thing I have to do is say, feel guilty, I feel ashamed. And then immediately, like I've done enough of this work to be like, that's a no. I forgive myself. And there's power in these words that even if we're talking alone in our bathroom or in our car, there's power in these words and these choices when we say them out loud. So it's pause, look inward, feel your body, state the feeling, use the words, make the choices, and try to bring in a new feeling. What do I need? What do I need? What do I need? I need ⁓ peace. I give myself peace. And like, just have this weird conversation with yourself and you give yourself that feeling. And it's not about words or mantras or scripts or directives. It's really about bringing in, it's about feeling the feeling and then bringing in the new feeling. speaker-0: Yeah, thank you for that. I've learned something similar over the course of my own work with mental health professionals. And I think one of the other things that I've learned is also that in that section of where you're talking about stated aloud is sometimes we go to some of those ⁓ negative things like shame, blame, and we do that because it is an easier outlet for feeling the actual feeling that may be underneath it. So... ⁓ you know, if it's shame, it may be embarrassment, or if it's, ⁓ guilt, you know, we may feel sad that be... because we hurt someone. And staying angry at ourselves for sort of in that frame of reference is easier than sort of acknowledging the underlying feeling. So, yeah, that's definitely what was coming up for me in this model that you were talking about is, you know, sometimes we tell those narratives and stories because it's familiar and it's the thing that feels better than the feeling of real thing. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to that, I say there's nothing to lose. It's a conversation with yourself. And that, one thing you could do is say, give myself safety. What do I need? I'm afraid of going into my feelings. I give myself safety. I give myself a feeling of trust in myself. I give myself a feeling that I'm going to be OK. So some things like that. And a lot of times, it's like, There's ⁓ just a precursor layer of fear or fear-based emotion that has to be contended with, you know. speaker-0: You said something else that I wanted to go back to, because I think it's really important sometimes when we have these moments of like tension or conflict with someone else is at its roots. Sometimes there is some sort of issue with communication. You indicated that it started with some sort of miscommunication about something. And I can't even remember exactly what the details were, but ⁓ tell me a little bit more about how you see communication or miscommunication kind of playing out in this particular scenario or other times where, you know, you've been kind of in the shit. speaker-1: Yeah, mean, miscommunication happens and miscommunication prevails and perpetuates when we have emotional blocks that we don't see and we're acting from that emotional space. It is impossible to hear someone or to create space for that person to feel heard or to feel heard yourself if you are operating from an angst or an irritation or an upset. And it doesn't matter how much forced civility or repressed this or the words you use, you can say respectfully and... You can say nothing at all and you, know, the emotions there and it's infectious. So even just saying nothing, even avoiding, avoidance is felt. You know, non-communication is felt. If you're carrying the energy, it is infecting not just you, but the other person. So you can't have, ⁓ you can't have really productive communication unless you're feeling what is coming up within you. Now, if you're in a really trusting and safe ⁓ relationship or with someone who's... more grounded or it's not really escalated and it's a small ripple. Maybe you can have a dialogue with the other person where you're both able to kind of find and feel those feelings together safely. But that's not always true. Sometimes it's a big feeling and a conversation with the other side is just gonna trigger that person because you're bringing that infectious energy and it's gonna come back. And that's even if you're kind of keeping the languaging, if you looked at the black and white transcript of the conversation, nobody said anything untoward. but the energy is there. The energy is always there and it's always felt. So you have to contend with that inner energy before you're have any kind of effective communication. speaker-0: Oh yeah, like even if you feel like you are primo at masking that energy, like it is still subtly felt by the other person because you're either like distracted trying to sort of shove it down and repress it or you're sort of over, you know, if you're pissed and raging, you are like over nice in a weird like type of way, right? Like it always comes out some sort of weird. speaker-1: Have you ever sat there and tried to write the email that sounds not mad when you're mad? Or have you ever received that email where you know the person spent two hours on it, but it's like they're pissed? It always comes through. It always comes through because we're humans and we're emotive and we feel and we're intuitive and all of these things. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. So let's take this another level deeper then, because you are a litigator. You have a background and like people getting pissed at each other in professional context and then going through that. like, how do you see this idea of miscommunication or shitty communication playing out in the work that you have done as a litigator and that you do now kind of bringing these non-traditional techniques to dispute resolution? speaker-1: Yeah, I love that you asked this because in my rage texting, I wrote the cross-examination. I wrote the cross-examination. Even though I've been doing this work and I know better, right? But it was such a brilliant display for myself. Like I am perpetuating the emotion through this cross-examination. And that's exactly what lawyers do, right? We think that we're lawyers, we're above the emotion, we're elevated. It's coming through the legal briefs. It goes from the client to the lawyer. And then the lawyers sometimes come up with their own dynamics within themselves and they get... It's felt, it's always felt. It's following the legal briefs, it's following, and then the trial attorneys are really just trying to recruit the arbitrator or the jury or the judge into the emotion. The good trial attorneys are trying to tell the story that it's not resolving or transmuting or alchemizing or helping people get to the answer, the question, what do I need? It's not resolution, it's a recruitment. It's a recruitment of others. And that's why it's such an amplified and expensive process that never ends. Because nobody's resolving the underlying emotion that's always driving it. And so for me, I know this intuitively because of just who I am and how I live my life. And then I'm practicing as an attorney and I'm just seeing it all. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ totally. And ⁓ I'm also a lawyer. I think most people probably know that, but I don't practice actively anymore. And so hearing you say that makes me think it's one of the things that, you know, may be a disservice of our obligation to be zealous representatives of our clients. Because I remember days when I was practicing, like, have to come out of the gate swinging, right, with your perspective and sort of like, will the other side into submission. ⁓ It also reminds me of a story I heard not too long ago about someone getting advice never to apologize. Because even if there hasn't been fault, when you apologize, it puts that idea of blame in someone's head. And I'm like, you know, as humans, I don't know if I agree with that. Sometimes all the person needs is just a stinking apology. ⁓ speaker-1: I think that's super interesting about never apologize. I would say that you don't wanna be apologizing unless you've done that first step of self-forgiveness and real self-compassion. Because if you're apologizing from your shame, you're perpetuating the shame. If you're apologizing because you wanna get something from the other person, you're actually resolving nothing because you're just spreading the fear-based energy more. We've all felt the apology that comes from shame. that's like, I was wrong. Like that's like fueling sort of a righteousness in the other side, which is like, yeah, damn it, you were wrong. If you come from an apology that's powerful, you've done the work of self forgiveness and compassion, like it's felt more powerfully. It's felt like, okay, this person's gone through the shit, not in the shit, but through it. And there's just more to be gained from that energy and interaction. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So let's go back to ⁓ the part that makes everyone cringe, right? That moment where you have that righteous rage. ⁓ We've all done it. I've done it myself. And so... You know, was... Where was the point that you realized, like, oops, I'm in this shit and I had a misstep? speaker-1: Yeah, I think for me, I realized I was in the shit, so I like at first just piled on more shit, because I'm like, already in the shit, so let's have a shit party. And, where was the point? I mean, I think all along I was sort of like, this isn't me. And, but I think I was just in such a point of overwhelm. It was just such a point of overwhelm for me that I thought I could sort of, we can't get out of it. Like there's no checking out of it, right? You can break off relationships, but the shit's still following you because you haven't gotten through it. You can break off relationships. doesn't fix what's underlying. can avoid and walk away. You can scream your head off. Like none of this is gonna actually get you to what you need, which is peace. And with peace is power. And with peace and power is clarity and solutions and answers to the questions about what do I really want? Do I really want to walk away from this relationship? Do I really just need X, or Z? The clarity doesn't come until we get through the emotional charge. We have to release the charge. So at what point did I come to know this? I don't know. I think I noted myself shaming myself was the first thing. And then I was like, oh, self-forgiveness, I have to let go, you know? And that was really powerful and effective for me. And then I could kind of go into some of the other things. And as I, I always liked to, I'm a spiritual person and I always like to back up and say, what's the lesson from the universe? Like, why did this happen? And oddly, I think part of it was learning self-forgiveness and compassion. Like, I'm not the kind of person who does things like this. don't, like my background and my issue, like in my history is I don't have things to apologize for because I just keep my feelings small and don't feel them and don't act from them. And I don't do anything egregious, right? But when we do, we still have to deal with the consequences of that in terms of our relationships and other people. And I'm not excusing it. But when we do finally like lose our shit, the beautiful opportunity is to just look at that and come to what gifts are in it. There are gifts in it. I know that sounds weird. And for me, it was the practice of self-forgiveness, the practice of compassion, the practice of going into that. And that was really powerful for me. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, thank you. ⁓ you know, as you were talking, this image of a pile of poop, right? Like... Push it off to the side so you don't have to deal with it. The reality is that it still smells like poop. It still smells like shit until you've dealt with it, until you've turned it into manure, until you've disposed of it in some way. ⁓ you can't not deal with the shit. speaker-1: Honey Right. Yeah. Right. it creates a pattern, you know? It creates a pattern in our lives. And I think we can all think of times when we felt we were aggrieved or upset. And then we're like, I had this... This was the same feeling I had five years ago when I got into that. You know? We all can, if we sit with ourselves and we're willing, we can find our patterns. And you have to... So because everything is energy, even our emotions, our emotions that emanate... ⁓ into our relationships, our emotions that drive every choice we make. Because everything is energy, you have to deal with the energy. I'm not even, it's what's almost underlying the emotion. Cause I think it's easy to be like, well, I feel this and I feel that and just be in words. But you wanna be in the feeling because that's where the energy lies and the energy is what has to shift. I'm talking about like transmuting, alchemizing, changing the energy. ⁓ So that's how you get through, I would say the shit. speaker-0: Yeah, so let me ask you another question about rage, because sometimes rage is justified. And you've probably seen it yourself with personal things, you've probably seen it with the clients that you've represented. how ⁓ do you do with that rage? And how do repair? Because sometimes we take it too far. speaker-1: I think sometimes rage can be a step in the right direction. And for those of us who are afraid of conflict or if you are the kind of person who keeps your emotion small and, you know, as women, I think it's hard, right? Because we're taught, don't have big emotions. Don't look jealous, don't look upset, don't look emotional, right? So we're taught to like keep it down, keep it passive, but it's still there. And if we're lucky, we eventually lose our shit. Because not only are we moving a step closer to that connection to ourself by finally feeling that, but we also provide us with the opportunity of self-forgiveness and compassion, and then the opportunity to go a little deeper about, ⁓ you know, what's actually going on in the relationship. But, you know, made the comment about sometimes rage is justified. Rage is always justified and never justified. You know, there's always a lawyer to write the cross exam from every direction. There's always this truth and then that truth. We create our reality, we create our truth. do we wanna stay, the righteousness and the right and wrong and the blame and fault and the justified and not justified, that is the lower thinking. That is what's keeping us smaller. You wanna get to a place of what do I need? And what do I need should relate to what you're doing in the world, what you really want, who you are as a person. With a business, it would be like, What thing are you creating or how do you serve your clients? What do I need is never, I need to win. I need to show them that they're wrong. I need to prove this. ⁓ If you're speaking like that, then you're still in righteousness and you haven't unlocked that feeling. And until you unlock that feeling, you are not effective in getting what you want. speaker-0: Okay. Yeah, so for me, it's this idea of a bridge, right? You've got to get clear on what you need and it becomes the bridge from converting rage into something that you can channel and then use and take action on. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, the rage is blinding, right? It's blinding. It's not wrong or bad. And I wanna be really, really, really honored that. Like, because when we make the rage wrong and bad, we don't go into what underlies it. ⁓ No feeling is wrong or bad, right? Like, I'm sure that you are an involved enough person, you appreciate this. No feeling is right or wrong or justified or unjustified. Feelings just are. They don't define us, they move through us. And until we can find them, feel them and release them, they don't transmute. But what blocks us from finding feeling, releasing and transmuting it is this idea that I'm not allowed to feel that. I'm not justified in being mad. I'm not allowed, I'm not justified. So then you're not dealing with it. If you just honor it and you say, this is what's happening. I'm raging, I'm upset. Like that's step one, you know? To start coming down ⁓ and make it about you and your feeling, what's happening with you. Because at the end of the day, that's who you live with. That's who's gonna cause you to have the success or the solutions that you want. So it's your relationship to you. So you almost wanna get away from the other person for a minute and get really clear with you. speaker-0: Yeah, that really hits home for me, because I think that was probably one of the most ⁓ enlightening lessons that I learned in my therapy experience, is I get to have my own feelings. The other person gets to have theirs too, right? But I get to have my own feelings, because I was engaging in patterns where I was sort of like stuffing my feelings down as a safety mechanism, right? I was pacifying the other person by not having my own feelings. And, you know, through lots and lots of therapy, I now recognize the harm that I was doing to myself for that. But I think the question that then comes of this, because you mentioned earlier this idea about like being able to identify the patterns that you have over the course of time. I know a lot of people are afraid to do that or are not in a place to do that yet because they're maybe scared of what they're gonna uncover. And so as you were talking, I was kind of listening to this, ⁓ listening to what you were saying and thinking, you know, it's pretty woo. for someone who was a lawyer. And so if you're willing and open to do that, I'd love to hear how you got from this path of like stuffing your feelings and no, and writing the cross examination to this place of like creating the space. I would love to hear that. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, didn't start wanting to deal with fear and feelings. I didn't even start this consultancy a few years ago wanting to talk about fear and feelings. I just wanted to solve problems and help clients get to where they wanted to go. And parallel to this professional journey is my own personal journey. I just want peace, abundance for myself, for my family, you know. And the way to do that as I moved further in my... in my career as a litigator and saw what I saw, I learned what I learned, I know what litigation is, I know what litigation isn't. And I came to realize the root of it all is our emotion. And as I'm dealing with myself and I'm evolving with my clients, I want the end result. I want abundance, I want peace, I want happiness and success. So we gotta deal with fear and feelings. Sorry folks, that's what it is. That's what's blocking you, that's what's limiting you. So it was, that's probably what motivated it. And I just got to a place in my journey where I couldn't do litigation anymore because it didn't feel right. It didn't feel aligned for myself or my clients. And so that's how that happened. I don't know if that answered your question. speaker-0: I think it does, and I'm gonna sort of read between the lines here a little bit when I'm sharing my reaction and my own journey to that. But I think it was like a slow build. And I got to the point where I was like, all right, this is not working for me anymore. Like it served me to a degree up to this point, but like it is not working anymore. And I need to fundamentally do something different in order to be able to get out of this place. And I think... It wasn't necessarily a watershed moment, but it was just sort of this moment where I felt like I had kind of reached critical mass and was like, can't continue to do this anymore. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, that resonates for me. ⁓ you know, it's not a disparagement of lawyers or legal process or any of that, but I just came to know too much. I came to know too much. And I'm like, I can't get out of bed to write interrogatories. What was that gonna do? I guess I could bill those hours, pay the bills. that's just kind of, that's just a hamster on a wheel, you know? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. And I think for me, I'm glad I had sort of that realization when I did because then my shit went sideways and I needed those lessons in order to be able to kind of serve as the foundation for getting me through it. So it's a lesson and things happen in their own time and the right time. ⁓ Something I would love to hear from you is like, you've had this situation with your partner come up and then how do you... How do you close the loop? How do you repair? How do you? ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah, mean, the first step is your own self-forgiveness, right? And your own compassion of self, and we talked about that. And the strategy for doing that is saying it out loud, choosing it, saying it to yourself repeatedly. ⁓ And then the second step is just, you know, from there you can take authentic and genuine accountability. You know, you're not just like, I'm sorry. You're like, I'm sorry. That wasn't me. that, you know, in a way that... I think can land more powerfully because it's not coming from an energy of fear. It's coming from an energy of authenticity and just, I'm now in my truth. I'm now in my peace. power is peace. Our inner peace is our power. The most powerful person in the room is always the person who is cultivating real inner peace. Not like forced civility, but real inner peace. And then that's infectious. I think it's really important then once you've sort of taken accountability in a way that's authentic and real to give the other person space too. The other person is probably going, was probably triggered too. They're upset too. I'm not responsible for that person's upset. I'm not. I know it sounds like I am. I did a horrible thing. I rage texted. I'm responsible for his feeling. I need to solve his feeling. I can't, I can't, right? Whatever comes up for someone is actually not the responsibility of the person external. The only person who can deal with that and go into that is the person feeling it. Whether that's unworthiness or insecurity or whatever it is. Like I have to give that person the space and the opportunity to go and transmute that for himself. speaker-0: Yeah, so it's this work that has to be done on both parts before you can come together and sort of resolve it. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, and our energy is infectious. So I maintain that conflict can be resolved by one side. One side can resolve a conflict. I don't have to work with both parties. And the reason I don't have to work with both parties is because if we can get one side to a place where they have transmuted that underlying energy that is driving the tension, they have come to a piece, true peace within themselves about it, they have let go of the blocks and they've... gained clarity about what they need, they're gonna bring a more powerful energy to the dynamic, a more powerful energy to the other person. And the fear-based emotion doesn't stand a chance. So whatever righteousness or upset that the other person has, it's not gonna be able to stay in the face of something that's like really peaceful and powerful and caring. I mean, and that doesn't mean the relationship can survive. Like people can have boundaries and they can grow out of relationships and they can say, you know, this isn't for me. It doesn't mean it's gonna save a dynamic or a relationship, but you can come to that decision from peace. You can come to that decision from clarity and not a righteous rage of like, F you, I'm done with you. I never wanna talk to you again. But more of all like, relationships are really over when people are like, okay, yeah, you know, I get it. And I just think we don't resonate. This isn't what I need, you know. If you're really saying that from peace, then you know. You know. speaker-0: Yeah. So what would you tell someone who is in relationship with someone else who has not taken that step of doing the internal work? Maybe you've done the internal work, the other person has not done the internal work, but until, you know, because of that, it feels incomplete to come together as a unit again. Right. speaker-1: Right, that's where boundaries are really important. ⁓ So you're bringing a more powerful and peaceful energy, but they keep knocking you down and they're really low. it feels like this, you really are getting to a place where you can't continue to evolve and heal in the energy of the relationship. Boundaries are really important. You need to take more space. You need to have certain rules about how people speak to you. And like going a little bit further, ⁓ I would say, you know, the question of the narcissist comes up a lot. You're with someone who can't and won't. So no amount of your own internal work is like really infecting the other side. ⁓ You know, and I think where you ultimately get with a narcissist is that you walk away from the relationship. ⁓ The strategy as you heal, the strategy that I give people for dealing with a narcissist is to just talk at them. Make sure you are sourcing your energy. from within. Because the narcissist will keep going to whatever triggers and layers you have. So as you're like healing and releasing and coming to your peace, they're finding the next. So when you have to speak with them or deal with them or interact with them, know your truth, know your power, have your peace, and just give the statement or the instruction or the thing or the share and expect nothing in return. you know, and keep sourcing your energy from you. speaker-0: Yeah, so it's this more directive approach and you're giving less for the other person. speaker-1: Yeah, if you're dealing with a full-on narcissist, don't try, don't even try for like an open collaborative, let me hear what you have to say, because you're not dealing with truth. So it's really more about a very boundary conversation where you are continually coming back to you, coming back to you, coming back to you, dealing with the little triggers that might be coming up and making sure you source your energy from you and your words from you and not a reaction to that person. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, thanks. So let's talk a little bit about these opportunities to sort of reflect, figure out what you need, do the repair. So what would you do differently and how do you move forward? speaker-1: Oh, in my story? Nothing. I would do nothing differently. I mean, it won't repeat itself. It won't repeat itself because I've learned it, but I had to go through it to learn it. So that's the other really important and novel thing that isn't, I think, really spoken of and replicated in our society and our culture is that, and I don't want this to come out the wrong way, but... The losing of your shit and the outrage, while there's consequences for it, there's opportunity in it. And sometimes we need that. The low choices we make, sometimes we have to go into that to see ourselves. Sometimes we have to have that experience to see ourselves. And yes, there are consequences, but maybe the consequences are worth it. And I don't mean it's ever okay to hurt people, but maybe I needed it. Maybe the other person needed what's coming up for him. Maybe there'll be a decision that with regard to the relationship and that's all okay. But I don't think I would change anything, although next time it'll be different because I've found the lessons and I'm grateful for them. And I'm grateful for me losing my shit and I'm grateful for what I went through because I was able to see it within myself. At the end of the day, the most important relationship is the one I have with myself and I have to be able to see these things, you know? speaker-0: And I think for you, that's the nugget here is like, it's a lesson that you've learned and you're taking it forward. And because you've learned that lesson, know, it, even though it was not an ideal situation, perhaps, it needed to happen to some Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, and I think the lesson, I didn't touch on this yet, but the feeling for me that came up was feelings of like rejection and unworthiness, right? That can feel really vulnerable to say, but I had to say it to myself. And what do I need? I need self-love. Give myself self-love. I'm like, bring in that love. Think of my dog, know? Bring in whatever gives me that feeling of self-love and really give myself that feeling and then just sit for a minute and meditation and let that soak in. So that's what I did with myself repeatedly, kind of going back to worthiness, ⁓ self-love, compassion of self. And then the newer thing that I hadn't done a lot of work on was this forgiveness and letting go of shame or guilt. Because I don't usually rage at people. That's not, I don't usually do something egregious that I have to then forgive myself for. So it was really powerful for me. And what would I do differently? It won't happen again, but ⁓ because I've learned from it. but I don't know, think I kinda think I needed it, you know? speaker-0: So, I mean, a lot of times when people come on, the thing that they're sharing, the shit that they're sharing, it has happened a while ago, and this was pretty fresh for you. And so, you maybe don't have the perspective yet to answer this question, but ⁓ how do you want this to propel you forward? You talked about these lessons of self-forgiveness and things like that. How do you want it to propel you forward? speaker-1: I mean, I think what I want is to release any lower energy that I'm still holding in my body, release fear-based emotion that I'm holding in my body. As humans, and every single human that walks this earth is carrying seeds of feeling unworthy. That's up for all of us. And anyone who denies that is, no. We all tangle with feelings of unworthiness. But the best of us are just conscious of it. The best of us are bringing some level of self-awareness to it so we can be like, ⁓ I feel unworthy. Huh, interesting. What do I need? ⁓ But that requires forgiveness, compassion, and stepping away, creating some space from the righteousness. You have to be able to observe yourself. So what do I want to propel me forward? I want the inner growth. want, I want the, because with that piece comes power. With that piece is getting back to what I need and want in the world, which is abundance. And I don't mean financial abundance. abundance in relationships and life and joy and laughter and living the life that I wanna live to the most fullest extent possible, it requires me to always be willing to look at the things that come up, observe myself and come into this. speaker-0: Yeah, thank you. Okay, so last question, let's take this home. ⁓ For someone who's maybe in the shit with some sort of important relationship, what do you tell them? speaker-1: You're exactly where you're supposed to be. You're exactly where you're supposed to be. It's all in good timing. You're exactly where you're supposed to be. Slow down, give yourself compassion, give yourself love, take a deep breath. You are all right and you are, yeah, you're exactly where you need to be. You're worthy. All the things, yeah. speaker-0: And you're worthy. respected, whatever. Well on that note Ursula, thank you so much for being here today and I will see everyone on the flip side. speaker-1: Thank you, Jen. speaker-0: That's it for this episode of Through the Shit. Thanks for listening. If you liked this podcast, like, share, and subscribe, and maybe send it to someone who needs a boost because they're going through the shit. While you're at it, tell them how important they are to you. If you have a story of shit to share or you're in the shit now, I'd love to hear from you. Email me at throughtheshitpodcasts.gmail.com or go to our website at throughtheshit.com. I'll see you on the flip side.