Latest / The Morning Edition / A player suspended, a Pride match bumped: Is the AFL doing more harm than good?

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A player suspended, a Pride match bumped: Is the AFL doing more harm than good? · The Morning Edition

• 0:06
  S1: This weekend. You were meant to be able to watch
• 0:09
  S1: a special game played between the Sydney Swans and the
• 0:12
  S1: Saint Kilda Saints. A pride game in which the players
• 0:16
  S1: would wear rainbow jerseys and celebrate inclusivity and which would,
• 0:20
  S1: as the Sydney Swans website once put it, ensure everyone
• 0:24
  S1: feels safe and welcome at the footy. But for the
• 0:28
  S1: first time in a decade because of a recent scandal,
• 0:32
  S1: it's been scrapped. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris and you're listening
• 0:36
  S1: to The Morning Edition from The Age and The Sydney
• 0:39
  S1: Morning Herald. Today, special correspondent Stephen Brook on the role
• 0:44
  S1: that homophobic slurs play in footy, and why the code's
• 0:48
  S1: attempts at cracking down on them may be backfiring. It's
• 0:51
  S1: June the 3rd and just a heads up, this episode
• 0:55
  S1: contains offensive language. Welcome, Stephen, to the podcast.
• 1:01
  S2: Thank you very much. Samantha.
• 1:03
  S1: Okay, well, let's get stuck in because, Stephen, in normal circumstances,
• 1:07
  S1: this weekend would mark the AFL's annual pride game. But
• 1:11
  S1: it's been scrapped. Why?
• 1:13
  S2: Essentially, this has been a long running game for about
• 1:16
  S2: ten years between Saint Kilda and the Sydney Swans. The
• 1:20
  S2: short answer is the Sydney Swans said no, we don't
• 1:23
  S2: want to play Saint Kilda as part of this annual tradition.
• 1:28
  S2: We would prefer to play another team, and this is
• 1:31
  S2: because of an incident with a Saint Kilda player who
• 1:33
  S2: was playing in the VFL, which is a second tier competition.
• 1:40
  S3: A story has emerged today that Lance Collard is being
• 1:43
  S3: investigated by the AFL Integrity Unit for the use of
• 1:47
  S3: a homophobic slur.
• 1:48
  S4: It's alleged the 21 year old called Frankston's Darby Hipwell
• 1:51
  S4: a homophobic slur in the VFL clash between Frankston and
• 1:55
  S4: Saint Kilda on March 27th.
• 1:58
  S2: He was accused of calling another player Are an effing faggot,
• 2:04
  S2: and I realize that is an offensive term to many people,
• 2:07
  S2: but it is what we are talking about here. So, um,
• 2:11
  S2: that's why I've said it.
• 2:19
  S1: And so tell us why this Lance Collard case, that's
• 2:22
  S1: the name of the player who's accused of saying this,
• 2:25
  S1: why it's so significant. Like why did it cause such
• 2:27
  S1: a furor?
• 2:28
  S2: So there have been about eight incidents. Similarly with players
• 2:33
  S2: who are playing footy, um, in various different levels of
• 2:38
  S2: the competition. And ordinarily what happens is, is that there's
• 2:42
  S2: an incident reported, the player will admit that he has
• 2:46
  S2: used this slur and then they're suspended for on average
• 2:49
  S2: about four weeks. This case was different because Lance Collard
• 2:53
  S2: contested the accusation, which two other players from the opposing
• 2:58
  S2: team had heard. He said he had said maggot and
• 3:01
  S2: this went to the AFL tribunal, which is where cases
• 3:05
  S2: or incidents that both sides can't agree on head to.
• 3:09
  S2: And it is quite a legalistic process. Anyway, long story short,
• 3:14
  S2: the tribunal originally handed him a nine week ban. Seven
• 3:20
  S2: weeks active, two weeks suspended. Saint Kilda and Collard insisted
• 3:25
  S2: this was wrong. It went to appeal. The appeal board
• 3:29
  S2: then reduced that to four weeks, and the head of
• 3:34
  S2: the Appeal board made some comments in his judgment that
• 3:39
  S2: a lot of people took a great amount of offence.
• 3:42
  S1: And Stephen, I wanted to ask you about how damaging
• 3:45
  S1: slurs can be because you reflected on this damage abuse, essentially.
• 3:49
  S1: Can you just tell me some of your reflections on
• 3:52
  S1: on why these slurs are so damaging?
• 3:55
  S2: I think that if you talk to any gay man
• 3:57
  S2: who had been exposed to bullying in their youth, they
• 4:03
  S2: would have found the accusation that they were a faggot.
• 4:05
  S2: Incredibly shaming. And I think that this is exactly what's
• 4:11
  S2: been happening on the football field here, because it is embarrassing.
• 4:15
  S2: You are, you know, your masculinity is being questioned. Your
• 4:19
  S2: sense of self is being questioned. And I think that, um,
• 4:24
  S2: you know, as an adult, I would not be offended.
• 4:27
  S2: I could let that ride. But then you have a
• 4:29
  S2: much surer sense of self in your 30s, 40s and 50s.
• 4:35
  S2: The people on the football field are not that they
• 4:38
  S2: are young men. They're in their 20s, and I can
• 4:43
  S2: quite easily see how that can be used as an
• 4:46
  S2: attack weapon. I mean, we live in such an abusive culture,
• 4:50
  S2: don't we? Online, in print. Politically, everybody feels free to
• 4:58
  S2: really attack people and really strident terms. But studies have
• 5:02
  S2: shown the damage from such homophobic slurs are real and
• 5:06
  S2: not just on the sports field, but on the field
• 5:10
  S2: and elsewhere. It's abusive, right? It's designed to attack your opponent,
• 5:14
  S2: to get them off guard, off center, bring out feelings
• 5:18
  S2: of shame. It can lead to depression and anxiety. Studies
• 5:23
  S2: have shown increased likelihood of self-harm because to receive such
• 5:27
  S2: slurs feels terrible. And studies have even shown that in
• 5:32
  S2: homophobic environments where people are embarrassed because of the culture
• 5:36
  S2: that has been built up, this such language, because it
• 5:40
  S2: is shaming for people can become a huge risk factor
• 5:44
  S2: in underreporting sexual abuse. The victims feel more ashamed and
• 5:50
  S2: hence are reluctant to come forward.
• 5:54
  S1: And I just wanted to ask you what personal reflection
• 5:57
  S1: you might have on on how it feels, really, to
• 6:00
  S1: have that sort of slur directed at you. Is it
• 6:02
  S1: something that you feel in your body? Is it just
• 6:04
  S1: in your mind? Is it threatening?
• 6:07
  S2: I think it's. Well, I don't think I know it is.
• 6:10
  S2: All of those things you would have. And you have
• 6:12
  S2: an instinctive physical reaction because, you know, the word is
• 6:17
  S2: so aggressive. And threat is a very appropriate word because
• 6:22
  S2: you're then assessing the threat level. Someone is speaking aggressively
• 6:27
  S2: towards me. Is that going to be followed by violence?
• 6:30
  S2: AM I safe? Then you sort of check yourself. But
• 6:34
  S2: I think that there's broader damage as well, because you
• 6:37
  S2: then hearing about these incidents as a fan or even
• 6:41
  S2: as a player, you may well think, well, is this
• 6:44
  S2: the sport for me? I don't want to be a
• 6:48
  S2: spectator here listening to that kind of attack on somebody else.
• 6:55
  S2: AM I welcome? AM I included here or am I
• 6:59
  S2: just sort of being tolerated with nice platitudes to my
• 7:04
  S2: face where the Real attitude of young sports. People are
• 7:11
  S2: the kind of words that have been articulated by Lance Collard.
• 7:15
  S2: And the fact that, you know, the Swans might get
• 7:18
  S2: a Middle Eastern airline to sponsor them and brush aside
• 7:22
  S2: the concerns over their laws in their home country. Or
• 7:29
  S2: the AFL hierarchy can go from queer friendly Katy Perry
• 7:34
  S2: one year to reformed homophobe Snoop Dogg another year. So
• 7:41
  S2: how much are they really serious about fixing this? I
• 7:46
  S2: think the deeper question we need to ask ourselves is,
• 7:48
  S2: is where are they learning this language? And how effectively
• 7:55
  S2: is the AFL in trying to police this in tribunals,
• 8:00
  S2: actually doing the pride cause harm? Or are they doing
• 8:05
  S2: the prize cause good.
• 8:09
  S5: After the break.
• 8:11
  S2: The Swans and I think some of their supporter groups
• 8:13
  S2: had clearly decided that a team whose one of their
• 8:17
  S2: junior players had been found guilty of using this slur
• 8:20
  S2: was they were not going to be inclusive enough to
• 8:21
  S2: invite them. So I thought it was the wrong decision.
• 8:33
  S1: I wanted to ask you, you know, what was your
• 8:35
  S1: reaction to the Sydney Swans dropping its pride game against
• 8:38
  S1: St Kilda? The Swans has said it was to ensure
• 8:41
  S1: the game had a positive impact. But what about for you?
• 8:44
  S1: What did this decision symbolise to you?
• 8:48
  S2: I thought it was, in effect a cancellation. It was
• 8:51
  S2: punishment for Saint Kilda who had stood by their player.
• 8:55
  S2: Rightly or wrongly, it has to be said that the
• 8:58
  S2: tribunal and the appeals board found that he had used
• 9:01
  S2: this slur. It is their duty to support their player.
• 9:05
  S2: I thought it was the wrong decision. I thought it
• 9:07
  S2: could have been a very powerful teachable moment. Speaking to
• 9:11
  S2: the great NRL champion Ian Roberts, who came out in
• 9:15
  S2: the 1990s and played for Manly and Souths. Now imagine
• 9:21
  S2: what he had to endure. And he said to me, Stephen,
• 9:24
  S2: all the pride round is is it just means everyone
• 9:27
  S2: is invited and it is meant to be an inclusive space.
• 9:32
  S2: The Swans and I think some of their supporter groups
• 9:34
  S2: had clearly decided that a team whose one of their
• 9:38
  S2: junior players had been found guilty of using this slur
• 9:41
  S2: was they were not going to be inclusive enough to
• 9:43
  S2: invite them. So I thought it was the wrong decision.
• 9:46
  S2: It's complicated and messy, and people who think that the
• 9:49
  S2: AFL is not doing particularly well in this whole area,
• 9:55
  S2: that's kind of the witness for the prosecution almost, isn't it?
• 9:58
  S2: It's saying, well, you're inconsistent because you are you know,
• 10:02
  S2: Lance Collard is facing these huge punishments. Yet Qatar can
• 10:07
  S2: be sponsoring clubs which have. And they are the national
• 10:11
  S2: flag carriers of airlines with particularly, you know, strict what
• 10:16
  S2: you can say, homophobic attitudes to gay people built into
• 10:19
  S2: their legal system.
• 10:22
  S1: And you made a comment before we started recording about,
• 10:25
  S1: you know, that this was also, I think, meant to
• 10:27
  S1: be a celebration of, of being gay and that that's
• 10:31
  S1: important and it's fun. So tell us about that.
• 10:35
  S2: I think that the AFL is missing out on that.
• 10:38
  S2: I think that these you know, some competitions have entire
• 10:41
  S2: pride rounds. And one of the key benefits is that
• 10:45
  S2: studies have shown if you have a pride round, the
• 10:48
  S2: players themselves lessen their use of homophobic slurs because they
• 10:53
  S2: realize why they are having this round and the damage
• 10:58
  S2: that can be done. One of my criticisms of the
• 11:01
  S2: AFL is that it seems to have locked itself into
• 11:05
  S2: thinking that the way that it can prove that it
• 11:09
  S2: is tackling these issues properly is in a crime and
• 11:14
  S2: punishment situation, which is overshadowing now everything else it is
• 11:19
  S2: doing in this space, and I just think that is
• 11:23
  S2: missing some of the joy of being a gay person
• 11:26
  S2: being alive. But I would say that about all other
• 11:29
  S2: aspects of being a human, whether you are a parent
• 11:33
  S2: or whatever. Um, so the pride round now, which is
• 11:38
  S2: meant to be the joy and the celebration, has also
• 11:40
  S2: become a further punishment for Saint Kilda, which is what
• 11:43
  S2: I thought.
• 11:45
  S1: And I want to find out from you what this, uh,
• 11:48
  S1: this case with this player, Lance Collard. And then the
• 11:51
  S1: response to the cancellation of the pride match. What it's
• 11:54
  S1: perhaps exposed, you know, is it revealing to us that, wow,
• 11:57
  S1: the approach to combating homophobia within the AFL, it's more
• 12:01
  S1: muddled than we perhaps expected, or it's more punishment oriented
• 12:06
  S1: than we perhaps expected. Uh, what has it revealed? Because
• 12:09
  S1: you did write that, unfortunately, this Lance colored case. This
• 12:12
  S1: is far from an isolated incident in the last few
• 12:16
  S1: years alone.
• 12:17
  S2: I think that it is saying that cultural change is needed.
• 12:21
  S2: We can't actually blame the AFL for these incidents. The
• 12:26
  S2: players are not learning this. You know these homophobic slurs
• 12:31
  S2: from the AFL. It is starting much earlier, but also
• 12:35
  S2: cultural change is a lot more difficult. And you might
• 12:40
  S2: think that threatening these huge match bans on players who
• 12:45
  S2: say these words is going to be effective, but it's
• 12:49
  S2: showing that it's not, because there's been about eight similar incidents.
• 12:53
  S6: And is homophobia.
• 12:54
  S1: Getting worse within the AFL? Because you you wrote about
• 12:57
  S1: a number of incidents in the last few years alone.
• 13:01
  S1: So is it getting worse or not?
• 13:02
  S7: Well, this is the problem.
• 13:03
  S2: We have reduced this whole issue to when very young
• 13:09
  S2: junior players in some cases are saying these words on
• 13:13
  S2: the field and we are using that. And the AFL
• 13:16
  S2: is using that saying, no, we are doing well. Look
• 13:19
  S2: at us. We are really punishing these guys. How would
• 13:23
  S2: we know? What are the kind of studies that are
• 13:25
  S2: being done? Have we seen captains, coaches taking leadership of
• 13:32
  S2: this issue on a club by club basis? It seems
• 13:36
  S2: to be a problem that there is only one pride
• 13:40
  S2: game in the whole of the competition each year, and
• 13:45
  S2: I'm not advocating for there to be some kind of
• 13:47
  S2: imposed pride matches that are dictated from head office. We've
• 13:52
  S2: seen the kind of disaster a couple of years ago,
• 13:55
  S2: the NRL, when they tried to make manly players wear
• 14:00
  S2: pride jerseys, which came in conflict with their religious beliefs.
• 14:06
  S2: There are lots of pride games happening all over the
• 14:08
  S2: country in different kinds of sports, but it only works
• 14:11
  S2: when the teams want to do it themselves, i.e. the
• 14:15
  S2: players and the leadership. Even in rugby union, even in
• 14:20
  S2: parts of Melbourne which have large Pasifika communities such as
• 14:24
  S2: Endeavour Hills, their local rugby club has had quite a
• 14:27
  S2: few of these matches. They're not turned into kind of
• 14:32
  S2: big marketing events. But I think perhaps they have an
• 14:36
  S2: authenticity that is really valuable for the local communities. And
• 14:41
  S2: I think, as I said earlier, Ian Roberts saying everyone's
• 14:45
  S2: welcome is a really lovely attitude to have.
• 14:52
  S6: And so what reflections.
• 14:53
  S1: If any, do you have, Stephen, on the fact that
• 14:55
  S1: this does not seem to be an issue or not
• 14:58
  S1: nearly as much, if at all, in women's sports?
• 15:01
  S2: Well, it's not an issue in other sports. Women's sports.
• 15:04
  S2: I'm just thinking of the Matildas who Australia completely embraced
• 15:10
  S2: with all their indigenous multicultural queer players who were really celebrated.
• 15:18
  S2: One of the absolute star athletes in Australia, Sam Kerr,
• 15:22
  S2: recently retired from her British football club. I think it
• 15:25
  S2: was Chelsea. It was a celebratory moment. Her wife was there,
• 15:30
  S2: their child was there. It was all treated as. And
• 15:35
  S2: it passed without comment. Wouldn't it be nice for the
• 15:39
  S2: male equivalent to be reached? I just think anyone you
• 15:42
  S2: talk to in this area who both support the AFL
• 15:46
  S2: or are highly critical of them, think that such a
• 15:48
  S2: moment is years away, if not over the horizon. And that,
• 15:54
  S2: I think, is a great shame.
• 15:55
  S1: Well, I guess I wanted to wrap up by asking
• 15:58
  S1: you that, which is, you know, we saw former AFL
• 16:01
  S1: player Mitch Brown. He was the first player to come out.
• 16:04
  S1: He went public with the fact that he's bisexual last year.
• 16:07
  S1: And I think a lot of people celebrated his his
• 16:10
  S1: coming out in that way. But like you've just said,
• 16:12
  S1: there aren't any openly gay current AFL players. What does
• 16:15
  S1: that say to you?
• 16:16
  S2: Oh we cannot. I think we actually openly gay I
• 16:19
  S2: think is a terrible phrase because it kind of implies that,
• 16:23
  S2: you know, being gay, the natural state of gays is
• 16:26
  S2: to be closeted. It's just gay. There are no gay players.
• 16:30
  S2: Coming out is a process, sure. The AFL is roundly
• 16:34
  S2: criticized for corners. Did an entire episode on this a
• 16:37
  S2: couple of years ago. But if you look generally in sports,
• 16:40
  S2: the gay players are few and far between. Whatever country
• 16:45
  S2: you want to sort of look at. So there's clearly
• 16:48
  S2: something culturally, educationally going on that is a lot broader
• 16:54
  S2: than just the Australian Football League.
• 16:57
  S1: Well, Stephen, I'm so glad you've written about this. So
• 17:01
  S1: thank you so much for your time.
• 17:03
  S2: Thank you for having me.
• 17:12
  S1: In other news, today, Google has applied to the US
• 17:15
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• 17:20
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• 17:22
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• 17:34
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• 17:37
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• 17:43
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• 17:50
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer
• 17:54
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• 17:57
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