Latest / The Action Catalyst / REMASTERED: Harbinger of Success, with Jordan Harbinger (Podcasting, Confidence, Personal Development, Networking)

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REMASTERED: Harbinger of Success, with Jordan Harbinger (Podcasting, Confidence, Personal Development, Networking) · The Action Catalyst

• 0:00
  Host: Jordan Harbinger has always had an affinity for
• 0:04
  social influence interpersonal dynamics and social engineering.
• 0:07
  He is the host of one of the most popular podcasts in the
• 0:12
  world. I'm excited to introduce him to you guys. So Jordan,
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  thanks for being here.
• 0:15
  Jordan Harbinger: Hey, thanks for having me on. And I
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  appreciate it.
• 0:17
  Host: Yeah. So what do you think are some of the key differences
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  between ordinary guys and extraordinary men? Or how do you
• 0:24
  sort of draw that line?
• 0:25
  Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely an interesting
• 0:28
  sort of distinction, right? Because there's so many guys out
• 0:32
  there that don't really know what either of those things
• 0:34
  mean, right. So you've got these weird camps and stuff we can get
• 0:37
  into later, where, you know, guys think they're supposed to
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  be one way, and they're not the other and we're not kids
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  anymore, we can't get away with the same type of stuff, we can't
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  ditch responsibility, you know, people aren't really going to
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  take the same level of forgiveness to the way that we
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  carry ourselves, or the, you know, can't be as selfish, there
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  was just a lot of things that went into becoming more of a
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  mature guy. And I also noticed that especially some of the guys
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  that I just know, personally that I grew up with, they were
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  just really not, not really interested in addressing that
• 1:08
  whole thing. So that I still have people that I grew up with
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  were like, living with their parents, or they're going to
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  work every day, because they do have a job. But maybe they're
• 1:17
  like, oh, you know, this isn't what I'm really going to do
• 1:19
  later on, I'm going to do XYZ, and it's just like all this
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  ridiculous, kind of childish stuff, they don't want to make
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  the transition. And I'm not totally blaming laziness or
• 1:30
  society or anything like that, I think that just, there's not a
• 1:33
  clear path anymore, which is both good and bad. You know,
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  it's good, because now we don't have to work a nine to five, and
• 1:39
  we don't have to grow up, get married and have kids, if you
• 1:41
  don't want to, you don't even have to live in the same country
• 1:43
  you grew up in, and you can work from home and all this cool
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  stuff. But on the other hand, there's no real clear
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  transition, you know, back in the 60s, and earlier and, and,
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  to a lesser extent, even in the 70s, and 80s, it was kind of
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  like, this is what kids do. Okay, you're 18, get a job, you
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  know, graduated from high school, get a job, figure the
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  rest out on your own. And that worked for a lot of people
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  because they were thrown into the fryer. And my dad was one of
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  those guys were graduated from high school. And at that point
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  in Detroit, everybody was going getting a job in the auto
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  industry. And that was what you did. And my dad went, I'm gonna
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  go to college, because a lot of the bosses are, you know,
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  college educated guys, and I want to be one of them. So you
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  went to college, paid his own way, I helped his brothers and
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  sisters go to college. And now it's like, if you don't go to
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  college, and there was sort of a rite of passage in the in before
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  our time that now no longer exists. So now it's like, do I
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  go to college? Do I not go to college? Do I get a job? Do I
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  start a business, our ideas of what makes a man are completely
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  skewed and screwed up? And there's no real good role models
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  to look at to figure out what to do? You can look at your own
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  parents. But if they're screwed up, you're kind of out of luck.
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  What are you going to do look at the NBA. I mean, you don't have
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  a whole lot of options.
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  Host: What do you think are some of like the misconceptions that
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  guys have about what it takes to be a man?
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  Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there's tons of stuff like that out
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  there. Because since this vacuum has happened, there's this whole
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  camp of guys that got started with like, maybe a few of these
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  modern men's movements, and some of them are really unhealthy.
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  Like there's this whole Pickup Artists movement, right? Where
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  guys, like, here's how you get chicks. Because somewhere along
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  the line, we started measuring ourselves by that. And so guys
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  went out and tried to master that which in a weird, self,
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  destructive, misogynistic way. There's these other camps that
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  turned into like, No, we have to be really, really respectful.
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  And we got to make sure everybody around us feel safe
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  and loved, which is great. Don't get me wrong. And the idea is
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  great, but the execution is usually something along the
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  lines of please everyone, but yourself. And eventually people
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  will love you for that. And then of course, when that doesn't
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  happen, you get these angry people, pleaser, guys that are
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  like really resentful of pretty much all of humanity. And then
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  they turn into the next camp of guys. In fact, I'm almost going
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  in an evolution here. Then they turn into the next camp of guys,
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  which are these like, really weird men's rights activists?
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  Have you ever heard of this? It's called like the men's
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  rights activist thing. And I'm sure that there's probably some
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  guys who are gonna yell at you and me about how I'm lumping
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  everybody together, but I don't care. But these guys, what they
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  do is they they write things like, oh, you know, 10 rules
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  for, and I'm not even I'm not even going to quote and I'm
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  going to loosely paraphrase for your show. Because otherwise,
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  it's just too offensive. But I read an article that was very
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  typical of one of these sites. And I read it recently because
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  someone sent it to me, a female friend of mine, she's like, is
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  this real? And I was like, sadly, yes. And it was like 10
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  ways to make sure your relationship goes the way you
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  want it to. And it's things like isolate her from her family and
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  friends make sure she knows her opinions don't matter. Like
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  don't spend any time with her family or her friends unless you
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  have to, you know, once a year on a holiday you can go to her
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  house otherwise it's all about you. You know, make sure she
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  doesn't have a career that it's like misogyny one on one, but
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  like created in a way that's way too well thought out to be like
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  a joke. It's clearly like this guy has implemented This stuff
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  and he's advocating that other people do. And people write
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  books about it. That stuff is creepy and weird. And when you
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  say something like that, then you become on their like weirdo
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  message boards, you become like this target. And there are
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  people that are like, I know where he lives, we should wait
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  outside his apartment and kick his ass because that's what,
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  that's what alpha males do. And then there's other guys that are
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  like, No, you'll get arrested, just screw up his credit by
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  doing this. And it's like, Are you kidding me, I have a
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  different opinion than you. And since you're a quote unquote,
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  alpha male, you're going to steal my identity, like get a
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  life, but guys are doing this. And it's a result of having no
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  idea what real men actually do, what real responsibility looks
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  like, what real, how you can actually be a strong guy and
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  show vulnerability and love other people and take care of
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  your brothers and sisters. And figuratively, or literally, it's
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  just like, oh, man, I grew up in this weird environment with bad
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  parents. So an idea of what a man is is like a supervillain
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  plus a Hollywood guy. You know, it's just weird.
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  Host: So I want to turn the conversation now a little bit.
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  You talk about charisma. So you actually think that charisma is
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  is a learnable skill?
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  Jordan Harbinger: I don't just think that it's actually been
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  proven by science. The only people who think charisma and
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  personal skills are not learnable are people that either
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  are well behind the curve, which is fine, I can understand that,
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  but don't really want to put in the work to do it. It would be
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  like you ever have, do you have any friends that aren't doing so
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  well financially? And they say, well, it's easy for you because
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  this oh, well, I can't do that. Because of this. You ever have
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  any friends like that? Sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So the
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  people who think Oh, charisma, personal skills network, and
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  that's not something you can learn. I wasn't born with the
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  gift of gab, the people who say that and quote unquote, truly
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  believe it are the people who go, oh, man, that looks like a
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  lot of work. I'd rather not highlight my shortcomings and
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  simply blame it on whatever genetics the economy,
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  circumstances beyond my control, you know, they'll force majeure
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  argument, right? And it's very, very, it's well established that
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  this is a nurturer not necessarily nature type of
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  thing. And I know, just from my personal observation, as well as
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  as well as the science, I know that it is teachable, because
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  that's what we do. If this was snake oil, we would have been
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  called out a long time ago, what a lot of people don't really get
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  their think like, oh, it's all about saying the right thing,
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  and you got to be quick on your feet. And maybe there's
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  something to that. But mostly, what it comes down to is a few
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  parts nonverbal communication, both reading and displaying, and
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  then the ability and willingness, frankly, to give
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  pretty much unendingly to others without the expectation of
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  getting something in return. So we teach a lot of nonverbal
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  communication skills and I can give you a drill towards the end
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  of the show that people listening can just try so we
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  teach a lot of nonverbal communication. In other words,
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  like looking acting, feeling confident, the the kind of like
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  fake it till you make it but for real, you know, science based,
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  nonverbal communication, how you're perceived, how others
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  perceive you. And of course, when you change your nonverbal
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  communication, to be more confident, more positive, more
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  charismatic, people start to treat you differently. And that
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  creates really good feedback loops where you think, okay, now
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  maybe I am that person, or how come everybody's being nice to
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  me today. And you've experienced this as well, I'm sure where
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  you're having a good day, you're in a good mood, and then
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  suddenly, other people are treating you really well. And
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  you're like, Well, today's a really good day, that's not an
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  accident. It's a result of the way that you're being as well.
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  It doesn't mean that people won't be snotty and rude to you.
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  If you're in a good mood. It just means that chances are, if
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  you're in a great mood, and you're engaging other people all
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  the time, and they're reading positivity, friendliness,
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  openness from you, and the way that they do that is
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  nonverbally, they're probably going to treat you differently
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  than they are going to treat the guy who looks grumpy, stressed,
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  and like he's just over it.
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  Host: How do you go about doing that? Like, how do I start the
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  journey of becoming confident if I don't feel that way?
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  Jordan Harbinger: That's a great question. Especially because,
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  you know, a lot of people go well, what causes this in the
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  first place, and I don't want to zoom out too far. Because I'm
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  not a psychologist. I'll just blanket statements a parents
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  upbringing environment, that can ruin us, just as it can make us.
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  You know, the kids who were really fun, popular and great
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  and well adjusted in school, they had a different environment
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  than the kid who never said anything and had some trouble
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  going on at home. Right? We all that's like a cliche, it's so
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  obvious now. Now we look at the way that people are the way that
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  people behave. And as adults, we carry 99% of the crap we had in
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  childhood, we can slowly start to outgrow it. And we can slowly
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  start to become confident, but it doesn't mean all that stuff
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  goes away. It has to be a manual process. Just like if you're 100
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  pounds overweight. You don't just gradually Oh, you know what
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  I just randomly got in shape. No, it's you had to change your
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  habits, right? You had to change the way you eat. You have to
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  change the way you exercise. And usually you have to change the
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  way that you think about yourself. Because if you and I
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  grew up together, and you were fat when we were kids, and this
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  is hypothetical, I have no idea whether or not you were fat or
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  not. I Let's say that you were like 100 pounds overweight, you
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  were always a fat kid. And we went to college in different
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  places, and I haven't seen you, and then we have our high school
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  reunion. And you're thin, right? I know, you've made a change.
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  And it's dramatic. And everyone that knows, you knows that
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  you've made a change. Now, if I was always the shy kid, and you
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  know, all the way through middle school, high school, and then I
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  go to college, and we have our high school reunion, what would
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  it take for you to notice that I'm less shy? And how would you
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  measure that? You wouldn't really, I mean, you might
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  notice, because maybe I'm a little bit more outgoing than I
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  was, but you and I were friends. So I wasn't really shy with you.
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  I was more shy with, you know, women or other strangers, but
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  you wouldn't really notice that because the way I interact with
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  you hasn't changed all that much. And there's no gradient
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  that you can say, Well, Jordan was, you know, he used to be
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  really shy. And now he's what less shy I mean, those are the
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  most descriptive terms that you can really give that type of
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  change. It's another thing, if you look at people who knew me
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  growing up, and they go, Wow, you're like a totally different
• 11:00
  person, because my change is really drastic. So when you look
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  at somebody who's has a physical change, that's dramatic, you go,
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  wow, you know, what, you really did something, what was it and
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  they have a strategy that was backed by science, that looks
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  like it probably was the reason why they've changed the way that
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  they appear. If I have science based strategies that change the
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  way that I behave, there's a 90% chance that most of the people
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  that I interact with will not even really notice that much.
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  Because they're wrapped up in their own stuff. Now, someone's
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  appearance is so basic, that you always notice the difference.
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  That's why you'll see somebody that you've known for years, and
• 11:38
  you'll go, did you get a haircut or something? But you would
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  never go? Amen. Did you um, did you suddenly talk to three
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  strangers that you never would have talked to this morning,
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  you'd never, you know, you never will have that. So it's in part,
• 11:52
  its measurement, or lack of ability to measure. And to it
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  has to be such a dramatic change for most people to notice other
• 12:00
  than you, right? Because your first impressions are already
• 12:03
  kind of made. That's why it's even more dramatic to notice
• 12:06
  that somebody has lost weight, or gained it, versus somebody
• 12:09
  who you know, changing their personality, because that image
• 12:12
  is already there. If you meet a bunch of new people, after you
• 12:15
  make dramatic changes to your personality, they see you in a
• 12:18
  completely different way. That's why I go by my middle name now,
• 12:23
  which is Jordan, and people who I grew up with are used to
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  calling me let's say, Eric, right? So people who I'm young
• 12:30
  when I was younger, they go man, you you don't look like a
• 12:32
  Jordan. I can't call you, Jordan. And people that I meet
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  now go, oh, man, I can't call you Eric. There's no way I could
• 12:37
  call you, Eric. I don't look like a Jordan or not look like
• 12:41
  an Eric. That's ridiculous, right? The only thing is their
• 12:44
  perception of me their initial one is what's burned into their
• 12:47
  brain. And so now the new one doesn't quite jive with what
• 12:49
  they imagined me to be. And that's why it's so hard to
• 12:53
  notice. If somebody's made dramatic changes. It's not that
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  it's not science based. It's not that this can't be done. It's
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  just that we don't have good measurements for it other than
• 13:02
  subjective perception.
• 13:04
  Host: Yeah. So you mentioned that word perception. Is the
• 13:06
  biggest part of perception, the way that we perceive ourselves
• 13:10
  first, and then charisma or confidence become sort of the
• 13:13
  outward display of the perception of ourselves. Would
• 13:16
  you agree with that?
• 13:18
  Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man, that's brilliant. Yeah. And in
• 13:19
  fact, I couldn't have said it better myself. Because the thing
• 13:23
  is, you can't be or it's very difficult to be outwardly
• 13:28
  charismatic. If you have a lot of trouble perceiving yourself
• 13:32
  as somebody who's confident now you can act charismatic, don't
• 13:35
  get me wrong. So everyone right now is like no, but that one
• 13:37
  guy, right? No, you can act charismatic. Look at a lot of
• 13:40
  me, you see these actors that have like these crazy substance
• 13:43
  abuse problems and stuff, when they're acting, they're
• 13:45
  phenomenal. But they're acting, it's an art, right? You can try
• 13:49
  to do that as much as you want. But the whole point of this
• 13:51
  exercise is for you to become happier and more fulfilled, and
• 13:54
  create better relationships not to make other people think that
• 13:58
  you're cool. That's that's the unhealthy stuff that we were
• 14:00
  just talking about in the beginning of the show. So we all
• 14:04
  probably met those kids, or even adults where you think, man, you
• 14:08
  know, this kid's so cool. He's tall. He's athletic. Oh, the
• 14:12
  girl was like, Man, I wish I was him. And then you know, you have
• 14:15
  that one drunken and like, cool, intimate conversation with the
• 14:19
  guy and you find out that he like, hates his parents, and he
• 14:22
  feels like he's stupid. And the only thing he has is athletics,
• 14:26
  but he's not good enough to get into college. So he's like
• 14:29
  really insecure about his future and you're like, holy crap, this
• 14:31
  guy has real problems. What I didn't know that. You know, the
• 14:35
  whole time. You're wishing you're wishing you're him and
• 14:38
  he's thinking what am I going to do after this? Right? He's the
• 14:40
  most insecure guy you've ever met. And the reason that you
• 14:43
  thought that is because you went well, I'm below him on this
• 14:46
  ladder and on this measurement, I'm less and on that other
• 14:48
  measurement. I'm last and he's definitely beat got me beat
• 14:51
  here, here and here. You know, you this is all a matter of self
• 14:54
  perception, just as his shortcomings are also a matter
• 14:58
  of self perception.
• 14:59
  Host: What is your definition of charm?
• 15:01
  Jordan Harbinger: You know, it's really tough. Let people ask me
• 15:03
  that all the time. But it really comes down to a lot of different
• 15:06
  things. I mean, there's this cutesy definition where it's
• 15:08
  like, getting the answer without having to ask the question, you
• 15:11
  know, that's all fine and good. But it depends on a lot of such
• 15:14
  I know, this is a worst answer ever. But it depends on the
• 15:16
  situation, right? You know, if you're looking at at this from
• 15:19
  like, the confidence and charisma angle that we've just
• 15:21
  been discussing, it's literally to be so confident in yourself
• 15:26
  that you're comfortable being authentic, which means you're
• 15:29
  comfortable being vulnerable, because here's going back to the
• 15:31
  beginning of this conversation, a lot of guys go, Yeah, I'm
• 15:34
  confident I could like beat up anybody who disrespects me.
• 15:37
  Well, that's not really confidence, right? Because
• 15:39
  clearly, you're not going to beat up anyone who disrespects
• 15:42
  you, you're tough guy, you're just really hurting and really
• 15:45
  insecure. So you act like that, right. And you see these truly
• 15:49
  confident guys that you've rarely meet. And they're really
• 15:53
  honest about what they're afraid of. And then they're the ones
• 15:56
  who are really close with their mothers and fathers and wives
• 15:59
  and girlfriends and kids, because they can be vulnerable,
• 16:02
  they can come back after a hard day of at work, and they can be
• 16:07
  the spaghetti Flying Spaghetti Monster or whatever to their kid
• 16:10
  and they can, they can take care of the emotional needs of their
• 16:12
  family. That type of thing. That's extremely, that takes a
• 16:17
  lot of development, right? And it takes a lot of confidence to
• 16:20
  be able to go you know what, I'm going to quit this job that I
• 16:22
  don't like and start a business. They're confident enough to
• 16:25
  admit when they're wrong, they're confident enough to
• 16:27
  continue learning through life without having to prove to other
• 16:30
  people that they already know everything. So it's more like a
• 16:33
  savoir faire type of thing that's evolved into really the
• 16:37
  type of savoir faire itself, where it doesn't matter what
• 16:41
  other people's perceptions might be. We may teach you to read
• 16:43
  those and others we may teach you to display them well to
• 16:47
  others. But really, it's about you, you know, it's about how
• 16:50
  you feel how comfortable are you in your own skin because there's
• 16:53
  nothing more attractive than somebody who's got that nailed.
• 16:56
  Host: Mm hmm. Well, I appreciate it, brother. You're doing a good
• 16:59
  thing.
• 16:59
  Jordan Harbinger: Appreciate it, man. Thank you