Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / Would you go to prison for your spouse? Bill Livolsi

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Would you go to prison for your spouse? Bill Livolsi · Nightmare Success In and Out

• 0:00
  So what happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
• 0:04
  Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy. Welcome to the Nightmare Success
• 0:07
  In and Out podcast, where we explore how to overcome your
• 0:10
  fears and nightmares and set yourself free.
• 0:13
  We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
• 0:15
  Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
• 0:20
  These stories can be inspiring, sometimes.
• 0:22
  Sad. There's some humor.
• 0:25
  But hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something
• 0:27
  that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you built up in
• 0:30
  your own mind. All right, Welcome back,
• 0:35
  nightmare, success. In and out, listeners.
• 0:37
  We are back. And as everybody knows, this is
• 0:41
  where you come to hear what happens when your worst fear
• 0:44
  becomes your reality. How do you adapt, survive.
• 0:46
  Overcome, Set yourself free? I was just telling my guests
• 0:52
  here that I think his is his. Story is really interesting
• 0:56
  because it comes from a whole different angle.
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  And you've got a married couple and in the end of all this, you
• 1:05
  know you're trying to help out, you're trying to do, but he's
• 1:06
  trying to help out his wife and ends up getting into a horrible
• 1:11
  nightmare and. We were just talking about I
• 1:14
  don't think I've had that twist before but it's just an
• 1:16
  interesting story how it all unraveled.
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  My guest is Bill Lovis. We just talked about the
• 1:25
  Lavalsey Lavalsey because I had put a K in Bill's name on the on
• 1:31
  our e-mail and and I and he said hey that's there's no K in there
• 1:35
  so so I asked you before we get started so it's Lavalsey.
• 1:39
  So Bill you know he's. He's doing some cool stuff now.
• 1:44
  He's got, he's a life coach. He does, It's called white
• 1:49
  collar coaching. He obviously is helping support
• 1:52
  the white collar justice people who are going through that
• 1:55
  system and helping them through that, which is a much, much
• 1:58
  needed service to people. And he's also the deputy
• 2:02
  director of Progressive Prison Ministries.
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  And that's how I kind of ran and and ran and through found Bill
• 2:11
  through Jeff Grant and their white collar support group
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  that's a national group that Bill is also puts all that
• 2:19
  together and and gets out all the notifications and and
• 2:23
  speakers and all that good stuff.
• 2:26
  And I'm excited to get into this, excited to get into this
• 2:29
  story. Bill before we do that I want to
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  Tell them Brent from nightmare success since you bill welcome
• 3:20
  in. Thank you for making time to do
• 3:22
  this today. Oh Brian, thank you.
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  I'm really happy to be here. It's a Friday.
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  I don't know when this will publish out, but this Friday
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  when we're talking. So Bill?
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  Take us back a little bit into your life.
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  Where? Where did the young bill grow
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  up? And and parents and siblings and
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  all that good stuff? Oh well, I grew up in
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  Pennsylvania, outside of Philadelphia, and in Montgomery
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  County, a town called, well, I I was born in Narstown,
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  Pennsylvania, and then I grew up in King of Prussia and live
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  there. Well, I went to school, went to
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  high school there, went to university at Westchester, was a
• 4:08
  music education major for a while.
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  And then subsequent to that, I ended up going to Saint St.
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  Joseph's University in Philadelphia and graduated there
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  in in a degree in accounting. And just like, you know, my dad
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  did before me. Started along that path.
• 4:29
  Well, so with when you were a kid, did you had siblings, did
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  you, your mom, dad. Yeah, was that. 22, younger, two
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  younger sisters. So you're the oldest and I I was
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  the oldest and yeah. Mom and dad, dad's gone now he
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  he passed in 2009 but you know he was he was my role model.
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  Yeah. Which I don't think is I don't
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  think that's very I mean I don't think that's unusual for.
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  For young men. I would totally agree.
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  I think especially if you're the oldest in your family, your son
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  and your dad's plays such a big role in your life when you're.
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  Absolutely. Yeah, he was.
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  I wanted to. I wrote about this a while ago,
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  but I wanted to be just like my dad.
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  Yeah. And.
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  So was your Did you have a pretty normal school high
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  school? Yeah, yeah.
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  I mean very, yeah. I mean is is very, you know, dad
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  was was, you know, early in the baby boom.
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  So he was getting the benefits of that baby boom generation.
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  I was born towards the end of it in 59.
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  Because I think baby women's is about 64.
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  It does, because I I was born in 67, so I I'm on the very very
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  one of my generation X, so 60. Seven, yeah.
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  Yeah. But he, you know, he, he, he
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  went into service, came home and he used the GI Bill and he went
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  to Wharton at night. Yeah, got his undergraduate and
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  he started, you know, on his career.
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  And he became very successful in in the pharmaceutical business.
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  And you know, to me, I looked at, I looked at my dad and I
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  said, you know, that's this, look, look, look at how
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  successful he is. And that was really something
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  not emulated and with mom, you know.
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  What we really didn't find out until after Dad passed was that,
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  you know, mom was the is the glue that held everything
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  together. You know, she was quietly in the
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  background and that really didn't reveal itself until after
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  dad passed. But just to see how, you know,
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  she recovered from that. So yeah, it was really what you
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  would consider normal in that time, you know, the normal
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  suburban. Mom, dad and these good dads of
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  success, you you wanna emulate that and and he's your idol.
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  And so as you're going through you get out of college.
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  What are you thinking? I started, you know, I I
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  thought, oh, let me do the CPA route.
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  I really wasn't cut out for that.
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  So I went into industry and and I started.
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  My first real job out of college was I worked for at the time.
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  Well, it doesn't exist anymore, but it was the Philadelphia
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  National Bank, right right down on the on the in the
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  Independence Square section of Philadelphia, right across from
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  the Liberty Bell. And I spent a number of years
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  there training and I had desire to move up.
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  So I found an accounting supervisor's job in New Jersey.
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  So I went to that one and worked there for a number of years.
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  Then I had desires to go work in New York City, found the job in
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  New York, happened to be in advertising as an accounting
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  manager, and I found I really loved advertising.
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  Interesting. So you were an accounting.
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  Yeah, you were an accounting, but you've drifted over into an
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  advertising firm and did accounting?
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  Yeah, it was. I mean just the vibe at the
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  place in that business at that time was just really exciting.
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  A lot of creative people, a lot of diversity and I and I loved
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  it and that's in advertising on the on the finance side is where
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  I spent the rest of the rest of my career moving up in a in a
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  series of moves and ended up at VP of Finance, CFO at an ad
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  agency. That was while I was there.
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  We sold to a major international advertising agency holding
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  company. So it was really, it's very
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  exciting and for somebody like me who started out, you know, in
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  suburban Philadelphia, it felt, it felt great.
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  So at that time what, what, how would you have been at that time
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  in that time? Period.
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  Oh my goodness. Because it sounds like you moved
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  up and just continued to move up and on the land.
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  Yeah. And and I could have continued
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  in in in that position. This is about 2002 thousand and
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  four beginning of 2005. I left that that job in New York
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  City because. During that time period, I had
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  moved from the Pennsylvania, New Jersey area.
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  I was living in Las Vegas and I was commuting.
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  I spent Mondays and Fridays working from home.
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  And then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I was in.
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  I was in New York City. What was that?
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  Like though, I mean that that seems like a heck of an
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  adjustment between being on the East Coast growing up in.
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  Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, going to New York, and then all
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  of a sudden you're BAM, you're in Vegas.
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  Yeah, there was a bit of culture shock going to Vegas from the
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  East Coast. But you know, it's a place where
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  you can adapt pretty quickly. And then also that the traveling
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  was easy because traveling was different then.
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  You know, in the early 2000s, it was much easier to get in and
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  out of an airport. The flight costs were a lot
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  less. So that aspect of it was pretty
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  that aspect, it was pretty simple and it gave me, you know,
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  I looked at it. I had, you know, I'd have four
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  days home, you know, Friday through Friday through Monday
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  day, and then, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday in
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  New York and then come back, you know, Thursday night.
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  I would never do it again because, you know, it's it's.
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  Yeah, right. Exactly.
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  A younger man. What was your?
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  First was like, what was going on in your personal world?
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  I had moved out to Vegas because a young woman and I were had
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  gotten engaged and I had traveled.
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  She was originally when I met her, she was living in
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  California in the outside of LA, but her family was from Vegas.
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  And, you know, I looked at it at the time.
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  Housing prices there were low. You know, the cost of living was
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  low. And I was like, well, and I
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  inquired with my, with my, my employer, and I said, how would
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  you feel about, you know, me working from home Monday and
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  Friday and working in New York for like, well, you would still
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  work five days a week, Yeah. They inquired about the
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  technology. It's pretty simple.
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  I mean, it's not. Keep in mind this is you know,
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  the Internet was still really filtering into into the business
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  world and I showed them it was doable and it was doable and but
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  in 2000, end of 2004, beginning of 2005, my, my, then current,
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  my then current girlfriend, we were, we were together.
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  And she wanted to move to Oklahoma because her dad was
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  sick. So we So we ended up moving,
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  moved to a small town in Oklahoma.
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  And one of the things I found out pretty quickly was commuting
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  from Tulsa, which is where I'm at now, to New York was not as
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  easy as going from Vegas to New York.
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  I really didn't look at it too carefully at the time and I said
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  sure I'll be able to make it work well.
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  It really didn't work well. And so I made a decision.
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  I was fairly financially secure. We already had one.
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  We already had one child together.
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  We were destined to have another and.
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  I said, well, let me kind of have a quasi retirement.
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  I can spend more time with my youngest, you know, like my two
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  youngest. And in part, part of the reason
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  that motivated me to do that was on those prior years.
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  Even though I was home four days a week, I missed a lot with my
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  older kids. And that's another reason why I
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  would never do a situation like that again.
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  So. Now that the older ones had kind
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  of grown and they were doing their own thing, I thought it
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  would be a good idea to stay focused on the younger ones and
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  spend more time with them, which I was able to do.
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  So everything's kind of So everything seems like it's all
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  up to this point in your life, Bill.
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  It sounds like things are good. You know, you've you've got
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  kids, you've got you're married now with the second wife that's
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  you've had two kids and you're kind of winding down thinking,
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  hey, this is the good, this is the good stuff I'm going to be
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  be that guy that's around all the time, Dad.
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  So what? Happened.
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  Yeah, well, my my spouse was a. Private money manager.
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  Okay. And it was that business was not
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  going well for her and did. You know, Did you know that at
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  the time? No, I I really didn't.
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  Because I mean, up to that point I had, I had invested some money
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  and my my, my dad and mom had invested some money and.
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  Some others in the extended family had invested and and
• 15:19
  things were things were not going well for that business.
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  There was some, there was some lawsuits, assets were frozen and
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  it created a really bad dynamic. You know, here I am in this in
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  the middle here and I've got family here and my spouse here.
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  And you can just imagine the conflicts that kind of started
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  to brew out of it. Oh gosh, yeah, that sounds like
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  that. First of all, you got a marriage
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  and then you've got family extended family invested into
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  this money manager piece of investment, and you're starting
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  to get ripples of that. Oh my gosh, this this might not
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  be fantastic. Exactly.
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  What do you what are you thinking?
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  You know, gradually you go into panic mode because things don't
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  seem to be resolving in a in a positive way.
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  And and it got to the point and I think this was probably in
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  somewhere around 2006, 2007, probably more like 2006.
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  I made a really horrendous decision because I was supremely
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  arrogant, you know, thinking that, you know, I could fix
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  every problem that ever arose and I just couldn't take it
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  anymore. I said, look, what can I do to
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  help fix this? Okay, you kind of.
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  Had a background and and knowing numbers.
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  Too. Oh yeah, yeah, sure.
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  And. You know, to my detriment, I did
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  not really think it through Okay.
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  I was only thinking of the immediate problem.
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  Okay. I didn't really look at the
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  effect of me getting involved. And essentially what I did was
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  that I became a middle person. Assets were frozen.
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  But there were people who wanted to make an investment into the
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  fund and I said, OK, well let me help.
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  I will step up, I'll receive those funds and I can then be of
• 17:59
  help to you and take those funds and make the payouts to the
• 18:05
  other investors. Now, if I had half a brain in my
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  head at the time, that is the very definition of a Ponzi
• 18:12
  scheme. Yeah.
• 18:15
  Okay. Taking new money to pay off old.
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  Yeah, and you know what? That's what I did.
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  So my actions were really critical to, you know, causing
• 18:32
  this loss and. But here's the thing that
• 18:39
  happened in, let's say, 2006, I think it was as I mentioned, And
• 18:43
  then things went quiet and you're kind of going, oh.
• 18:50
  You know, maybe that. Bullet bit the bullet.
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  You know, Dodge the bullet. Well, not quite, because then
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  there was some additional. Civil suits on with my spouse
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  because of those activities and then I find out there is an FBI
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  investigation. How do you find the federal
• 19:18
  investigation? Find that out, Bill.
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  When they came to when they when they came to visit and interview
• 19:25
  her. Okay at the house.
• 19:28
  At the house, Yeah, yeah. I like, I mean, we had an open
• 19:32
  first floor. It was an older house or open
• 19:33
  first floor. So I was sitting in the other
• 19:35
  room and I heard the interview and I didn't know enough.
• 19:43
  One thing I was curious about all this was going on had you.
• 19:49
  And your wife been talking a lot about this, like she was sharing
• 19:52
  the stuff with the civil suits and she was, you know, did she
• 19:55
  think that? Did she, did she think she was
• 19:57
  going to get a visit by a knock on the door?
• 20:00
  You know what I. Did you guys talk I.
• 20:03
  Do not know. I do not know 100%.
• 20:06
  Yeah, I suspect there was probably a conversation that
• 20:12
  said, you know, there was probably some murmuring that
• 20:16
  they're like the FBI was involved.
• 20:21
  And which kind of makes sense on something like that and given
• 20:25
  the, you know, given the money that was involved.
• 20:29
  And so, yeah, it most likely did happen, but, you know, it
• 20:35
  doesn't really hit home until they come to do an interview.
• 20:39
  And you know, one of the things I've learned since then is that,
• 20:44
  you know, the FBI only comes to visit the.
• 20:47
  The the person they're interested, they come and visit
• 20:49
  them last. Yeah.
• 20:52
  So you know, now I know obviously having been in in this
• 20:56
  in this space for a while, you know, they have been
• 20:59
  investigating for a number of years, yeah, probably from 2007.
• 21:04
  Right, the quiet period that you talked about.
• 21:06
  The quiet period. So they come and they come and
• 21:09
  visit and then in 2010 I come home from bringing.
• 21:16
  My 2 youngest to school and they were about 10:00 and 8:00 at
• 21:19
  this at this time and I come home and the FBI is all over the
• 21:23
  property. You know I pull in the driveway
• 21:27
  and there's a there's an there's an agent there with a with a
• 21:31
  rifle over their shoulder. You know they say stop and I'm
• 21:33
  like okay fuck, I'm not going anywhere.
• 21:36
  I'm not coming up the driveway. So that's really when you know
• 21:42
  while there was that nightmare period and they.
• 21:45
  You know the five, the 2005 six and seven.
• 21:48
  It really kicks in the high gear by 2010.
• 21:52
  So did you. And the two. 1000 because Bill,
• 21:54
  you're like your family and everybody was involved in this.
• 21:56
  Were you talking back and forth to them about these things that
• 21:59
  were going on as they were going on?
• 22:01
  And what was, how was that all unraveling?
• 22:04
  Well, I I mean, I was, I was really, I had a hard time.
• 22:11
  And I didn't really know what to say.
• 22:13
  You know, like my, my my dad. And, you know, I didn't know at
• 22:17
  the time that he'd be passing in in just a few short years.
• 22:22
  You know, I started cutting myself off because, you know,
• 22:25
  once that, you know, once that, you know, as things kind of got
• 22:30
  worse, I was. You know, I I I was kind of
• 22:36
  ashamed. I didn't know what to say or
• 22:37
  what to do. So I kind of stayed in my own
• 22:41
  little world, you know, and and so the the FBI comes and and and
• 22:47
  arrests my wife. In 2010.
• 22:50
  My dad had just passed away. Well, I I can't imagine you
• 22:54
  pulling up the places surrounded.
• 22:56
  You've got your 10 year old and your 8 year old in the car.
• 22:58
  What is going through your mind? Well, luckily no.
• 23:01
  Luckily I had just dropped them off at.
• 23:03
  School. They they they they were in
• 23:04
  there. It's just you.
• 23:05
  It's just you so. Yeah, it's just me and thank
• 23:07
  thank goodness. I mean, I hope they did it by
• 23:09
  design. Usually they come early.
• 23:12
  I don't know, you know, it was in rural Oklahoma.
• 23:15
  So it could have just taken them a while to get there.
• 23:19
  No. So thankfully the kids didn't
• 23:21
  see it. And but you know, I had been
• 23:25
  starting to isolate for a while because, you know, my dad had
• 23:29
  been my confidant. You know, he was the guy I
• 23:32
  worked things through with. And you know, even though.
• 23:39
  And he's gone now. He's gone.
• 23:42
  So the even even you know, in in 2006, 2007, 2008, even though
• 23:47
  things kind of quieted down from an immediate front, there were
• 23:51
  still other issues, you know and and it created a lot of conflict
• 23:56
  and I didn't really have anybody to to talk it through with.
• 24:01
  So I just kind of did what I could do on my own, you know,
• 24:05
  and you're in your own little world, you're not getting,
• 24:08
  you're not looking at things in a healthy way.
• 24:13
  You're not getting an outside viewpoint and you know when and
• 24:19
  that created that created a lot of problems for me and for the
• 24:22
  family. What happens the day that you
• 24:24
  pull up and they're surrounded by the house?
• 24:26
  What's what happens that day? I'm I'm panicking and you know
• 24:33
  so I they let me up and and you know one of the agents said you
• 24:37
  know we're we're arresting your your your wife.
• 24:41
  And I said okay, what do we, what do we do you know so they
• 24:48
  they took her and and they went up and they had a they had an A
• 24:54
  an arraignment hearing in in Tulsa and you know she was
• 24:59
  released on the OR but she had to report to to Vegas where the
• 25:06
  case was originally out of by a certain date and.
• 25:11
  You know, that started her journey and that lasted, well,
• 25:16
  let's see, that's the end of 2010.
• 25:18
  It lasted until the end of 2013 because it's at the end of 2013.
• 25:28
  She had turned down a plea agreement.
• 25:31
  Were you? Sometime in.
• 25:32
  Were you thinking, Bill, at the time that all this was going on?
• 25:35
  Did you think you were in the the heat of it?
• 25:39
  No, OK. I probably should have one of
• 25:44
  the things that you know, most people don't know, at least I
• 25:48
  didn't know at the time and like firstly about the, you know,
• 25:51
  when the when the FBI comes to visit you, you know they're
• 25:54
  going to visit you last. And I think the other illusion
• 26:02
  that we had, that she had and we both shared with that you can
• 26:08
  make this go away. Okay.
• 26:11
  And what neither of us really knew was that, you know, when
• 26:16
  when they bite on a case like this, there's only two ways it's
• 26:21
  going to resolve. It's a plea deal or you go to
• 26:23
  trial, they're not going to let go because they don't have to.
• 26:28
  And then and then this case, I mean it, it was, you know,
• 26:31
  wasn't necessarily justified that they did so when, when
• 26:35
  that, when that plea agreement got turned down and.
• 26:39
  In the latter half of 2013. Next thing you know, there's a
• 26:44
  superseding indictment, and I find out about it in early 2014,
• 26:51
  sometime in January, and I want it now.
• 26:54
  Do you think that if she would have accepted the plea in 2013
• 26:59
  that there would have been a super senior indictment?
• 27:02
  You know, I don't know. I mean, you know.
• 27:09
  I mean because a lot of times the real I.
• 27:11
  Don't think there would have been.
• 27:12
  Yeah, the only reason. There would have been now.
• 27:14
  Only reason I bring it up Bill is because it's it's very common
• 27:17
  that when the FBI and then the the US Attorney doesn't get what
• 27:24
  they want out of the situation they will then drift into a
• 27:29
  husband or wife and and and you know I had two or three people
• 27:34
  that I was with. Where well one guy did 16 months
• 27:39
  in county jail because he refused to to give in and then
• 27:42
  they they said that they were going to indict the son and the
• 27:46
  wife and then he he gave in and he got a much worse deal.
• 27:49
  Also, you know he gave in a desperation of that.
• 27:52
  But it's interesting to think that when that happened in 2013
• 27:58
  that was the indictment. She turned that down and then
• 28:01
  there became a superseding indictment.
• 28:03
  Right. So but I the one thing I don't
• 28:05
  know. I mean they could have very
• 28:08
  easily you know even if she took the plea deal they could have
• 28:12
  very easily then just filed a suit against me.
• 28:15
  I I so I don't really know you don't know.
• 28:19
  Yeah. Yeah, you don't know so.
• 28:22
  But so you know, so then your journey starts.
• 28:27
  Or mine did, and so we have. A husband and wife with two
• 28:33
  small kids. Two kids.
• 28:34
  And I can't imagine what you're thinking because it's not like
• 28:36
  they're teenagers. They're not 18 and 16.
• 28:39
  They're 10:00 and 8:00. Yeah, and and yeah, that's when
• 28:44
  you were really. Because up to that time, you
• 28:48
  know, I'm like, okay. Well, look, if this doesn't work
• 28:52
  out, you know, I'm here to take care of the kids.
• 28:55
  Right. Well, now all of a sudden that
• 28:58
  option is gone. You know because I found out
• 29:02
  pretty quickly that you know they we we mentioned earlier
• 29:07
  that once once they might, they don't let go.
• 29:12
  You know it's either a plea deal or trial.
• 29:15
  So that really you know that just changed the whole game.
• 29:19
  So what happened? Oh, Brett, I got to tell you a
• 29:26
  lot of a lot of panic. And then and then in, I'm not
• 29:36
  exactly sure when in 2014 or how it happened, somebody said, hey,
• 29:42
  here's somebody I think you should probably talk to and that
• 29:46
  was Jeff, Jeff Grant, okay and. That was, you know, I remember.
• 29:54
  And I wrote about this too. I remember the first time I
• 29:58
  called. I read about it.
• 30:00
  You were in the. You were in the No.
• 30:02
  I want you to tell the story. But you were in the parking lot
• 30:05
  of Walmart. Yeah, as I dropped it, I just
• 30:08
  dropped the kids off at school. I was coming back and I called
• 30:13
  and and you know, I'm thankfully he picked up.
• 30:17
  Because he didn't know I was going to call.
• 30:19
  I'd never met the man. I still haven't met him in
• 30:21
  personal the person ever. But you know, I he'd let me just
• 30:27
  lay it out for him. How did you run across it Bill
• 30:29
  How did you find Jeff Grant because you know for for those
• 30:32
  who for those who don't know Jeff was on a couple three
• 30:35
  episodes ago and he's got a just an unbelievable story and and
• 30:39
  and you know he's given back so much he became an order day
• 30:42
  minister he got his law license but he's he's done incredible
• 30:45
  things within the the. John or that we're talking about
• 30:49
  of helping people with their worst moments, but I'm curious
• 30:52
  how you found him. I honestly got.
• 30:55
  I am not sure somebody had to have.
• 31:00
  Told me about him. I don't really remember who it
• 31:03
  was. Probably just desperately
• 31:05
  looking for all kinds of places that.
• 31:07
  Could have been, you know, and it could have been.
• 31:10
  It could have been something that popped up on the screen at
• 31:12
  some point. But you're desperate.
• 31:14
  To tell I am, yeah, I'm. I'm desperate, right.
• 31:18
  Just like everybody is I think when they're you know faced with
• 31:23
  something like that and so and I called and and.
• 31:27
  We were on there for, we were on the phone for a long time and
• 31:31
  he, you know, Jeff listens really well.
• 31:37
  And then, you know, we started building a relationship, okay.
• 31:43
  Did you just kind of let it all out?
• 31:45
  Is that what the phone call? Was.
• 31:47
  Pretty much, yeah. Here's why I'm mad.
• 31:48
  I've got this situation. We've got these kids.
• 31:50
  I've got this indictment. I spelled it out.
• 31:53
  I spelled it out. Yeah.
• 31:54
  Yeah. And you know it it.
• 31:57
  Thinking back on it, yeah, I don't know what would have
• 32:04
  happened had he not picked up. I really don't.
• 32:09
  I know then that's that's a scary moment because so many
• 32:13
  people including myself hit that rock bottom moment and and you
• 32:17
  you get into that headspace that you never have been in your life
• 32:22
  because you never expected to be in this spot and.
• 32:26
  You know, it's a desperate, it's a desperate moment in your
• 32:30
  world. And and I think there's what I
• 32:33
  found in that, Bill, was when you hit that really solid thump
• 32:39
  rock bottom, there's only two ways to go.
• 32:41
  Either you go, you know, run yourself into a tree or
• 32:44
  something crazy, or you just grit it and say, man, I'm, I'm
• 32:50
  going to have to figure out how to get out and survive this
• 32:52
  thing. And then just you start doing
• 32:54
  that. Right.
• 32:56
  And see that was what was really for me important in that call
• 33:05
  was because you know, it just started with little things, you
• 33:09
  know, you know, starting to understand the process a little
• 33:13
  more, starting to understand that you know what it's pretty,
• 33:18
  it's normal and there's a lot of things you are not going to have
• 33:23
  control over right now. Okay.
• 33:27
  And just those little, small little Nuggets that you start
• 33:32
  out with that you build on and you know, from then on it just
• 33:38
  became regular conversations and started talking more about the
• 33:46
  kids and building support systems for the kids, which was
• 33:54
  crucial. You know, building support
• 33:59
  systems. You know, especially if you have
• 34:00
  young kids, that means you need to go and talk to their
• 34:04
  counselors at school. Right.
• 34:07
  And that's going to be hard, because you're going to have to
• 34:10
  kind of air some of your dirty laundry at the school, but the
• 34:16
  purpose is too important not to. Yeah, and and one of the things
• 34:21
  I found. Because I had, I had daughters
• 34:24
  that were in sports and very, very good in sports and I I I
• 34:28
  did you know make those conversations, those rounds and
• 34:32
  I was what I guess that's one of the things that surprised me.
• 34:36
  They were very helpful and wanted to help and and wanted to
• 34:42
  get the kids through the process with as least problems as
• 34:48
  possible and and you know I think.
• 34:51
  That's a a good thing for people to know.
• 34:52
  It's better to probably talk about it when you're going
• 34:56
  through that, then shield it and shame away from it.
• 34:59
  Because I think there's more people out there that are
• 35:01
  looking to help than if you just bottle yourself up in a corner
• 35:06
  and and and and try to be on an island by yourself.
• 35:09
  Yeah, I I know. I mean everybody's situation is
• 35:13
  different obviously. But you know, for mine and it
• 35:16
  sounds like for yours to, you know, involving.
• 35:21
  You know, some professionals at school and you know, if one can
• 35:26
  do it, have insurance at the time, you know, being able to
• 35:30
  take the kids to a child psychologist to get them, you
• 35:35
  know, and start doing things together.
• 35:37
  It's painful that it's painful to do, but it's really important
• 35:45
  because, you know, one of the things that the psychologists
• 35:49
  said was that, you know. It's important if you want your
• 35:53
  kids to trust you. Like you can tell them.
• 35:59
  You can tell them the truth in age appropriate ways.
• 36:03
  Exactly, yes. You know, and so you're not
• 36:07
  having to get into all of the nitty gritty, but you're not
• 36:11
  you, but you are telling them the truth about what is going
• 36:14
  on. Okay.
• 36:16
  And and you know they they the kids want, they want to know
• 36:19
  that that's what's the hierarchy of needs.
• 36:21
  You know they're they're going to have food, shelter, security,
• 36:26
  love, you know, those and the roof over their head, those kind
• 36:29
  of things. And because that's where their
• 36:31
  immediate fear goes. And also it's like well did they
• 36:34
  do something wrong, you know because kids you know and but
• 36:38
  Jeff helped me really see the need to do those things.
• 36:45
  And I really think it has made all the difference.
• 36:49
  I mean things aren't perfect okay.
• 36:54
  But I I can't see you know I look at my young kids and and
• 37:01
  e-mail them. They are you know they they they
• 37:07
  have some some residual effects. But truth is I I they're they're
• 37:13
  as good as. I mean, their lives are pretty
• 37:16
  good. Yeah.
• 37:17
  You know, they're making their own way, right?
• 37:20
  They just had to go in the school.
• 37:22
  They're doing the thing they found when they were going
• 37:25
  through this. They found friends that would
• 37:27
  support them, you know, and I don't think I could have done
• 37:32
  that. And that's, I don't think I
• 37:33
  could have done that part of it on my own.
• 37:36
  I just didn't know any better. And if I if I'm remembering this
• 37:39
  right, Bill and you correct me if I'm wrong, but.
• 37:43
  Did the judge make a decision that he would stagger the
• 37:46
  sentences? Yes.
• 37:49
  I thought that was interesting. Well.
• 37:52
  Cuz I don't even know that some people would think to ask for
• 37:54
  that either, you know? That no.
• 37:55
  And that was and and that that was.
• 37:59
  That was. That was that was just too.
• 38:01
  Yeah. And and what was interesting was
• 38:04
  that that was. It was relatively recent around
• 38:11
  that time was that the the Real Housewives of New Jersey case
• 38:16
  was very in the news and the judge there had staggered the
• 38:21
  sense and that that was the one message and I'm just jumping
• 38:30
  ahead a little bit, but that was the one message that my court
• 38:36
  appointed attorney. That was his only message in in
• 38:39
  the sentencing memorandum, Okay. And it was also a message that
• 38:48
  was sent in when we had a report sent in from a child
• 38:53
  psychologist. And that made a lot of
• 38:58
  difference. It really did.
• 39:00
  So did you day of sentencing, did you know more or less what
• 39:05
  had been worked out, the time that you were going to get or
• 39:08
  was it a shock? No, I did get a downward
• 39:13
  departure. I I I ended up.
• 39:17
  I was sentenced to 24 months incarceration plus nine months
• 39:25
  of home confinement. So essentially the judge instead
• 39:30
  of. He stayed kind of in a guideline
• 39:33
  sentence, but instead of it being in custody inside prison,
• 39:39
  there was, you know, X months of their own home confinement
• 39:42
  towards the end. And my, my, my, my wife got 45
• 39:50
  months and the when the judge came out.
• 39:58
  You know see judge left the bench after we did the hearing.
• 40:00
  He judge left the bench said I want to go back chambers and
• 40:04
  I'll be back you know shortly to render by decision or my
• 40:08
  sentence. Now I thought that was normal.
• 40:13
  A lot of people I've talked to said no I my judge didn't leave,
• 40:18
  doesn't leave. They they right.
• 40:20
  I I did and honestly I just learned that recently.
• 40:23
  I just assumed you know. But I had a couple of people
• 40:26
  telling him my judge was right there, never left.
• 40:29
  Soon as soon as the presentations and and motions
• 40:33
  were done, you know, judge was Johnny on the spot.
• 40:35
  OK, we'll hear your sentence. So you know, I I think that that
• 40:41
  you know that judge really reflected on the the staggering
• 40:44
  and the sentence part. Sounds like you had a good
• 40:47
  judge. A thoughtful judge.
• 40:50
  Yeah, I'm really grateful for that.
• 40:53
  You know, and. And and and it was still, you
• 40:56
  know, it was, it was, it was a shocking day.
• 41:01
  I can't drive past that courthouse.
• 41:04
  You know, I've been to Vegas once or I've been to Vegas once
• 41:08
  since then. And I won't even go past that
• 41:11
  courthouse. It's it's just it's not a place
• 41:14
  I even want to go near. I mean it was, it was a tough
• 41:17
  day. But you know what?
• 41:20
  You know, at least it was over. We knew what we were facing.
• 41:26
  You know, at that time we were, we were losing the house we were
• 41:28
  in, so we had to, we had to get ready to move, so we had to get
• 41:33
  back and and had to pack up and pack the house, find a new place
• 41:37
  to live. So there was enough going on
• 41:40
  that we didn't really spend a lot of time dwelling on it.
• 41:43
  So you were. In and then she had the report.
• 41:46
  She had the report right around. She ended up reporting.
• 41:51
  Right around Thanksgiving of 2015.
• 41:54
  OK, so she went in first. Yes.
• 41:57
  And then you went in. And then I went in, yes.
• 42:00
  OK, so that's a long time to be thinking about that.
• 42:05
  I'm going to prison. She had 40-5 months.
• 42:09
  You had that time period. I guess I should ask you, how
• 42:13
  was this relationship now with? You've got the two kids, you're
• 42:19
  moved. You're.
• 42:20
  Are you visiting or you like, are?
• 42:23
  You. Yeah, we're visiting.
• 42:26
  Yeah. Well, I mean we would, we would,
• 42:27
  we would get out. I mean you know we we're
• 42:29
  divorced now and I think that's probably not going to surprise
• 42:35
  many people. So yeah, we would visit.
• 42:39
  I don't know I did account we did.
• 42:42
  We were in Tulsa. And she was down in Fort Worth
• 42:46
  at Carswell, so I don't know. We probably did at least 25
• 42:53
  trips. Yeah.
• 42:56
  You know that's about 600 miles. It's about 600 miles round trip.
• 43:00
  What was your thought, Bill, about, you know, going there to
• 43:04
  visit? It's not, it's not easy to go
• 43:07
  visit somebody in prison, but then no.
• 43:10
  Obviously you know your husband or wife in prison, but then
• 43:13
  you're also thinking, well, I'm going to be on the other side of
• 43:17
  this deal. Well, it's it.
• 43:24
  What I didn't know then was that visiting day is not easy on the
• 43:33
  visit. T right?
• 43:35
  Yeah, you know, it's it's you know.
• 43:40
  If you're when you're incarcerated and if you're there
• 43:42
  for a little bit, you've got a routine going, okay, it's
• 43:46
  working for you. Hopefully, you know, visiting
• 43:50
  day is different. Yes, you're looking forward to
• 43:54
  it. You're looking forward to the
• 43:55
  visit. You get to your family.
• 43:59
  But at the same time, it's kind of stressful.
• 44:03
  You know, and you don't really know that unless you are the one
• 44:07
  being visited. You know, you also feel kind of
• 44:12
  guilty because you're putting your family through all the
• 44:17
  rigmarole of of going in, going through security, all this other
• 44:22
  business. You know, I'm going to visit you
• 44:25
  in a prison, so I can only imagine.
• 44:29
  You know, at that time, those things that were going through
• 44:32
  her head, sure, because they were going through mine when
• 44:35
  when people would come to visit me.
• 44:37
  Let's talk about that So she gets sure she gets out.
• 44:40
  You now know, I'm assuming you voluntarily surrendered to
• 44:44
  wherever you were going. Were you thinking?
• 44:46
  Yeah, I had. I had 30 days in the judgment.
• 44:50
  I had to report. 30 days after her release date.
• 44:55
  After her release date. And I knew that you know so.
• 44:58
  That was all baked in. As you yeah that was all baked
• 45:01
  in and and and I knew you know this was all pre COVID okay so
• 45:10
  we knew what her out date was going to be you know we had
• 45:14
  begun divorce proceedings anyway during that towards the end
• 45:19
  there so. I knew I ended up reporting on
• 45:26
  March 26th of 2019 and I surrendered to FCIL Reno, which
• 45:35
  is right outside of Oklahoma City.
• 45:37
  Did you have at the gates of you know, the prison did were you
• 45:42
  did you had you've had enough time now to think about you know
• 45:45
  how did you have strategies going in?
• 45:50
  I mean, it's scary, you know, it's scary to go into prison.
• 45:53
  It is. I mean, there's nothing like it.
• 45:55
  And there's, you know, I always say it's it almost feels like
• 45:57
  they're shedding the freedom off your skin as you walk through
• 46:00
  the process. That day you go in, what was
• 46:03
  your what was your world like entering that?
• 46:06
  I mean, at that point I was I I looked.
• 46:10
  I chose to look at it this way. This is the last thing I got to
• 46:13
  do. Gotta get it over.
• 46:15
  And then it's. You know, because to me, you
• 46:19
  know, supervised release, okay fine.
• 46:20
  You know, it was like, so I went into it looking like this is the
• 46:25
  last thing I got to do and when this is done, it's done.
• 46:29
  So you know, I really was getting me there so I can get it
• 46:37
  over with. Strategy wise, you know, there's
• 46:42
  a lot of. Some folks out there make a big
• 46:47
  deal about you got to have plans for this.
• 46:49
  You got to have plans for that. And OKI mean, plans are good,
• 46:56
  but at the same time, they don't.
• 47:00
  This is an environment you've never been in.
• 47:04
  OK, you know what? What's Mike Tyson say?
• 47:08
  Everybody has a plan to like, get punched in the face, you
• 47:11
  know? So we're going into an
• 47:13
  environment. That you know nothing about.
• 47:17
  You don't know the you don't know the culture, you don't know
• 47:20
  the language, you don't know the people.
• 47:23
  Okay. So you can have the best plans,
• 47:27
  detailed plans in the world, Okay.
• 47:31
  What are you going to do if those detailed plans are not
• 47:34
  based in the reality of being in prison, You know, so it's for my
• 47:39
  own, it was more, you know, broad strategy.
• 47:44
  You know, what am I going to do for myself physically?
• 47:48
  What am I going to do for my mental health?
• 47:51
  Okay. And you know, if I wanted to do
• 47:55
  anything for my spiritual health and and that's really where I
• 48:02
  focused. And that's not to say it was
• 48:05
  easy to do because I had, you know, I had some tough time.
• 48:10
  Any surprises that happened to you as you?
• 48:13
  Entered that unknown world or what were your support or what
• 48:16
  was what was your world like? The first, the first, I would
• 48:21
  say 3-4 weeks, maybe even more. You know, let's say the first
• 48:27
  three or four weeks just kind of flew by Okay.
• 48:32
  But the next thing you know, I'm, you know, summer's hitting.
• 48:37
  We are in the flatlands of Oklahoma.
• 48:41
  It is. 100 degrees every day. And then it, you know, the
• 48:51
  newness is over. So you find yourself.
• 48:54
  It was like summer doldrums and I that that summer I had, I had
• 48:59
  a tough time that summer, really tough time.
• 49:03
  You know, one of the things I did, which I would not advise
• 49:07
  anybody to ever do, was that I. You know I had certain
• 49:12
  medications I was taking for anxiety and depression and a
• 49:17
  month in I'm like I got this no problem.
• 49:20
  I don't need to take these anymore.
• 49:22
  OK? No, I I would not advise and and
• 49:25
  I so I stopped one. I didn't taper off if I was
• 49:29
  going to do it which was not smart but I found out that.
• 49:37
  They were helping me a lot more. Than you thought they.
• 49:39
  Were than I realized yeah. And so I was very, very
• 49:44
  fortunate maybe because the the head medical person was you know
• 49:50
  die my age. And I said then I just told him,
• 49:53
  I said look doctor I made a mistake.
• 49:55
  I should not have taken myself off these meds and she was able
• 50:00
  to get me, you know because I had surrendered him he was able
• 50:05
  to. Redo the script so I could get
• 50:07
  them and you know, so by the end of the summer, you know, things
• 50:11
  started getting a little better. You know, you asked about the
• 50:16
  strategy. So one of the things I wanted to
• 50:21
  get at, you know, at what whatever point I got there
• 50:26
  during this, this journey was that I really wanted to figure
• 50:30
  out how I got into this mess like.
• 50:34
  I know what I did to get into it, but what was underlying it?
• 50:39
  You know, Why did I make the decisions I made?
• 50:42
  Why did I sequester myself off from the people that cared about
• 50:46
  me? You know?
• 50:48
  And that was, that was a big, big strategy for me.
• 50:52
  And I just did a lot of reading. I got some books from psychology
• 50:58
  services that I could read. Want code dependency and and you
• 51:04
  know some CBT books and I just did a lot of my own work to try
• 51:10
  to understand that stuff. Did you kind of come to?
• 51:14
  Yeah, I I I think so. The the one one of my
• 51:21
  disappointments during is that I kept waking up going.
• 51:24
  I I I wanted to feel different, like.
• 51:27
  I expected that one day I would just feel wake up and I would
• 51:31
  feel like, you know, like the the light bulb went off for the
• 51:35
  the clouds would open up and I had the the answer and it wasn't
• 51:41
  until, yeah, yeah, it doesn't work that way.
• 51:45
  And I got super frustrated until somebody said to me, you don't
• 51:49
  see the difference from when you got here to where you are now.
• 51:52
  Yeah, this was a friend that I from, you know, when we were
• 51:56
  inside. Yeah, I'm like, OK, do you?
• 52:02
  Because I really didn't see it or feel it.
• 52:05
  And they said yeah, and they said just keep doing what you're
• 52:08
  doing and thankfully, you know, I I'm, I was, I'm really
• 52:16
  grateful for that piece of advice.
• 52:18
  So when you were getting close to the close to the door of
• 52:22
  freedom, what's what's going through your mind?
• 52:28
  First of all, I had no idea was close to the door.
• 52:31
  You didn't have any idea you were.
• 52:32
  No, I had. You need to talk about that.
• 52:35
  Well yeah, so, so, so I'm you know this is early so I I I got
• 52:43
  out on I got way March 26th. I got out April 29th.
• 52:47
  That's the day I got I got released.
• 52:50
  OF20I. Didn't find a 20 on April 29th.
• 52:54
  Of 2020 was the day. So that was just a my.
• 52:58
  Family came, picked me up. As COVID was becoming Exactly,
• 53:02
  yeah. Exactly.
• 53:04
  And the the CARES Act was done at that point.
• 53:10
  And what we didn't know was that they were already making
• 53:14
  decisions about people they were going to get out or to send
• 53:18
  home. And it was funny because I, I
• 53:23
  when I was there, I worked in transportation and I was the, I
• 53:27
  was the office clerk and one of the CEO's in there said
• 53:33
  something like, you know, to the effect of, well, at least you
• 53:37
  don't have to put up with us much longer or something like
• 53:39
  that. And I'm like.
• 53:41
  What are you talking about? I had no idea.
• 53:44
  So it just kind of, I thought they were just being there, but
• 53:46
  obviously they were already making decisions.
• 53:49
  So a couple of weeks prior they put about 40 of us.
• 53:53
  They closed off a wing on the camp, put up a false wall in the
• 53:58
  door, like a wall in the door. And you know, they quarantined
• 54:02
  about 40 of us and we spent two weeks in there.
• 54:07
  But it was. You know what we were basically
• 54:10
  told within we were all told within the span of two or three
• 54:13
  days and you know in in a couple days we're in that we were
• 54:17
  shifted down. They did move around in there.
• 54:19
  They put us in there. So we came as a as a surprise.
• 54:23
  So when I called home and said, you know, I told my son, I said
• 54:28
  I'm getting out. He thought I was joking.
• 54:30
  Because how much time did you think you had?
• 54:33
  Well, I I at the earliest I figured I would not.
• 54:38
  Since it was already I had just turned had turned 60 the prior
• 54:42
  year so I would have been eligible on the because of the
• 54:47
  elderly offender and I would have gotten out at the could.
• 54:52
  I've gotten out earliest is like in mid-july.
• 54:57
  So I wasn't expecting it for a couple of months and at the very
• 55:00
  least or at the very latest I would have been out, you know
• 55:03
  the first week of December would have been when my time ended.
• 55:07
  So this coming you know in in April was I had no idea.
• 55:14
  So you know the fact that I, I came home and was on finished,
• 55:20
  the balance of my sentence on home confinement, I'm like sure.
• 55:23
  OK, no problem. You know, there's not everybody.
• 55:26
  Not everybody, Maybe you know, all the listeners would know
• 55:29
  that. You know, when you get sent home
• 55:32
  early, out of custody, you will usually have to spend any time
• 55:38
  remaining on your sentence, either in halfway house or home.
• 55:42
  Compliment you're not, you know, it just doesn't act.
• 55:46
  Right. So you know, I spent the balance
• 55:48
  of that time from the end of April to the first week of
• 55:52
  December on home confinement visit the BOP and then I, then
• 55:57
  my supervisor release started and my nine months that was part
• 56:02
  of my sentence did it then and those two started concurrently.
• 56:07
  So you know, I mean all things considered it could have been.
• 56:13
  A much more difficult situation. So your parents pick you up, or
• 56:18
  your mom and and. No, my, no, My parents from
• 56:21
  Pennsylvania. My son came down and picked me
• 56:23
  up. My son, yeah, yeah.
• 56:25
  So he drove down because Tulsa is about an hour and a half hour
• 56:30
  and a half to two hours from El Reno.
• 56:34
  Stopped by on the way home, saw my other son and my my grandson
• 56:40
  and his wife. And then we made our way home
• 56:44
  and I went up to probation. I was fortunate that my PO had
• 56:53
  access to They were trying out the phone app for for
• 57:01
  monitoring, so I didn't have to wear an ankle bracelet, an ankle
• 57:04
  monitor. That's fantastic.
• 57:06
  So they just did it with facial recognition and GPS location.
• 57:12
  And so that really made home confinement pretty easy and you
• 57:20
  know, I mean and you set your schedule and they were very
• 57:24
  accommodating within reason. What did it feel like to you
• 57:28
  Bill, getting back into society now?
• 57:31
  Cuz your thought is I'm gonna get this over when you're in
• 57:34
  person. And then you get out and you,
• 57:36
  you kind of start to realize it's not quite over.
• 57:39
  I'm now living a life as someone who was in prison, coming out of
• 57:44
  prison into society. What, what?
• 57:46
  What was all going through your mind?
• 57:51
  The biggest thing I tried to do was that, you know, the family
• 57:59
  here had a routine and. As happy as I was and I was
• 58:06
  thrilled to be able to get home, I didn't want to screw up their
• 58:11
  routine, like. So I tried as best as I could to
• 58:18
  keep a, you know, to fit into what they were doing.
• 58:22
  And that's a challenge. Yeah.
• 58:25
  And it's a real challenge because you're, you know, you
• 58:29
  were, you're back in the place you were before you went to
• 58:31
  prison, so now you're home. So you want to pick up with what
• 58:35
  you were doing then, But. Everybody else moved on.
• 58:38
  It's like. Everybody else is.
• 58:40
  Waking in a moving car let me catch up.
• 58:42
  Yeah, yeah. So I I just, you know some
• 58:48
  advice that I learned from Jeff and from others in the group is
• 58:51
  just like brief and slow down and your job meaning my job is
• 59:01
  to. Accommodate them.
• 59:05
  Not them to accommodate me. If I'm saying it right.
• 59:08
  Yeah. Yeah, You know, I gotta fit in.
• 59:09
  I gotta fit into their, you know, we gotta fit into their
• 59:12
  life. Yes.
• 59:14
  And and and so that's really was you know the first couple of
• 59:20
  months that's really just what I did my best to do.
• 59:25
  So when did you bill? Cuz you're doing some really
• 59:28
  cool things now. What did when did you?
• 59:34
  Realize in your mind, you know, I want to use this experience.
• 59:38
  I want to be a life coach. I want to be able to help people
• 59:43
  walk through this. Did, did that.
• 59:45
  Was that always with you, through your through your
• 59:48
  journey with this or was it something that came to you as
• 59:51
  you walked out of that into society and thought, wait a
• 59:54
  minute, I could, I could probably help people with this.
• 59:59
  Well, I had thoughts about it. I didn't really have the
• 1:00:02
  coaching aspect of it, the thought about that.
• 1:00:05
  But you know in the years, you know from 2015 to 2019, you know
• 1:00:11
  I am actively participating in white collar support group at at
• 1:00:17
  Progressive Prison Ministries and you know, I I was really
• 1:00:22
  lucky to be able to. That have to be surrounded by
• 1:00:28
  people that has been through this and so I knew that that's
• 1:00:34
  something that I wanted. To do.
• 1:00:36
  Because you got a lot of it, but I love that you you used that to
• 1:00:42
  get through and gain. I don't even know if you call it
• 1:00:45
  confidence, but knowing more about the process at least you
• 1:00:49
  know how to deal or how you get to deal with it as opposed to
• 1:00:52
  just the complete unknown. I'm just because I always say
• 1:00:55
  this nothing is is as bad as your mind makes it out to be.
• 1:00:58
  Not even prison and and what you were able to do was take that
• 1:01:02
  time and really get educated. Hear from people who'd been
• 1:01:06
  through it, how they got through it.
• 1:01:08
  But I think it's really, I love it when people take something
• 1:01:13
  that was a, you know, a horrible experience.
• 1:01:17
  And know that you can use that in those things that you did now
• 1:01:22
  to give it back to people who were in the same position you
• 1:01:26
  were that are desperately trying to figure out the next step.
• 1:01:31
  I had that. That I wanted.
• 1:01:32
  I had that thought that I wanted to do it when I got home and we
• 1:01:37
  even, you know I had there was a couple of guys that you know we
• 1:01:44
  became pretty friendly and and tight inside, you know, and we
• 1:01:48
  would have those conversations, you know about.
• 1:01:52
  You know what do you think? Why did you end up here or what
• 1:01:55
  were your decision? What was your what were your
• 1:01:57
  decision making patterns back then you know what And and it
• 1:02:00
  wasn't an it wasn't an intellectual discussion.
• 1:02:03
  It was real like this what was going on and it was it was some
• 1:02:07
  pretty raw stuff and and it was I mean it was really
• 1:02:13
  enlightening and you know and spending all those weeks and
• 1:02:20
  months. You know, being part of the
• 1:02:22
  group here and seeing, you know, other men, other women who were
• 1:02:27
  out the other side, who actually had smiles on their faces helped
• 1:02:32
  me realize that whatever happens, I'm going to be okay.
• 1:02:37
  I don't know what, I don't know what it's going to be like, but
• 1:02:41
  I'll be okay, Yeah. And I just, I would hate to see
• 1:02:47
  anybody have to go through this alone.
• 1:02:51
  And there are so many that do Bill.
• 1:02:52
  I mean I think there's and I think there's so many layers why
• 1:02:55
  that is. But I I noticed that there was a
• 1:02:58
  lot of guys that I talked to when I was in and and and so
• 1:03:01
  many guys did go through it alone.
• 1:03:03
  They were on their own journey on their own island and and
• 1:03:06
  didn't have any support or mentors or anything around them
• 1:03:11
  to be able to give them some guidance and and men that that
• 1:03:16
  to me is is a different journey. It is.
• 1:03:20
  If and yeah, go ahead. No, no, no.
• 1:03:23
  That I mean, and that's so when I got home and I said, well, I
• 1:03:29
  started, you know, once I was kind of getting acclimated and I
• 1:03:32
  said, well, how can I, what would be the best way for me to
• 1:03:37
  do that? So I started and I I found some
• 1:03:43
  different coaching. Courses.
• 1:03:47
  I took one that was three to make sure I liked it.
• 1:03:53
  Then I ended up. Then I ended up through that
• 1:03:59
  through another place. I took their course and it
• 1:04:03
  really gave me some valuable tools.
• 1:04:05
  And I said, well, if I wanted to do this, let's do it because you
• 1:04:08
  know, it's going to take a while to build and it also is very
• 1:04:13
  helpful. With things I do with the with
• 1:04:16
  the ministry and the support group.
• 1:04:18
  Of course it's it's parallel. Yeah.
• 1:04:21
  And you, you learn. You get to, you learn to listen
• 1:04:26
  differently. You can ask some really simple
• 1:04:32
  but really powerful questions that kind of make people go, you
• 1:04:36
  know, like it. And and it's not to be gotcha,
• 1:04:40
  it's to be getting people to think right.
• 1:04:45
  And it's, you know, that part of it is really, you know, being
• 1:04:50
  able to volunteer for the ministry and and things is is
• 1:04:55
  really rewarding. And I'm, I'm assuming your kids
• 1:04:58
  are good. You were you mentioned that they
• 1:05:00
  they were living and doing good. Yeah.
• 1:05:03
  Yeah, they're doing, yeah. I mean, I mean, I've got five
• 1:05:08
  kids, yeah. From the youngest or 20 and 18
• 1:05:13
  and there were ones that were 10 and 8 and so, you know, I mean
• 1:05:17
  they're they're making their way.
• 1:05:19
  Yeah. All in all, things are pretty
• 1:05:20
  good. I Yeah.
• 1:05:23
  What do you think, Bill, going through the journey, the
• 1:05:29
  experience that you went through, what do you think's
• 1:05:31
  your biggest take away through all of it?
• 1:05:38
  Well, there. I don't think that there's one.
• 1:05:40
  It doesn't have to be 1. You can give.
• 1:05:42
  Me. Yeah, I I I think that that you
• 1:05:46
  have to find at least and I not. You have to.
• 1:05:50
  I'm just saying for me, I would hate to see somebody do what I
• 1:05:55
  did and that was sequestered himself away.
• 1:06:00
  Okay. It wasn't until I started
• 1:06:02
  talking to somebody. Who understood the experience
• 1:06:11
  that I could start to breathe a little more like and not that I
• 1:06:16
  started to understand that as difficult as it's going to be
• 1:06:23
  and it is difficult it does not have to be a disaster you know.
• 1:06:29
  So that's a good I would never want someone that has
• 1:06:31
  sequestered herself away and and.
• 1:06:37
  Don't be afraid to ask for help. That's huge.
• 1:06:41
  I think those two things are big too.
• 1:06:44
  Many too many guys don't ask for help.
• 1:06:46
  Yes. OK, And it's funny, you have
• 1:06:52
  this conversation with with. It's not just, it's not just men
• 1:06:56
  that sometimes women I don't sometimes I'll ask them.
• 1:06:59
  And I'm sure you've done the same thing.
• 1:07:02
  How do you feel when somebody asks you for help?
• 1:07:04
  Does it bother you? No, I like it.
• 1:07:06
  I like being able to be able to help them, right.
• 1:07:08
  So why do you think it'd be any different if you ask somebody
• 1:07:12
  else for help? You know?
• 1:07:15
  But I don't know if it's pride or shame or combination.
• 1:07:19
  I think you have to. I don't know.
• 1:07:20
  I think it's pride. I think pride and ego is your
• 1:07:24
  the society in some cases is felt like that's shows some kind
• 1:07:28
  of weakness that you can't take care of it on your own.
• 1:07:30
  You know the oldfashioned you gotta you know get through this
• 1:07:34
  yourself. But I think those that this was
• 1:07:38
  good advice, you know that that what you're going through you'll
• 1:07:41
  make it. It's not going to be a disaster.
• 1:07:43
  You can you can find your way and and secondly ask for help.
• 1:07:48
  Use mentors make yourself. Definitely, yeah, definitely.
• 1:07:53
  And and the the thing of and I also think it's important too
• 1:08:02
  for people to understand is that.
• 1:08:04
  Everybody's journey in this is different.
• 1:08:07
  OKI don't think anybody you know.
• 1:08:13
  No one has the absolute answer about what you need to do for
• 1:08:19
  you. So the more you listen, the more
• 1:08:24
  you absorb from different sources that are credible.
• 1:08:32
  The better off I, the more I did that, the better off I was
• 1:08:39
  because no one knows you as well as you do.
• 1:08:45
  Be down and somebody, right, and somebody else's prescription
• 1:08:50
  about how you get through this might have been great for them.
• 1:08:54
  It might not work for you. Yeah.
• 1:08:58
  Which is great for a life coach, what you're talking about,
• 1:09:01
  because the life coach needs to listen, understand what
• 1:09:04
  motivates somebody and then put that in place.
• 1:09:07
  Those things that motivate them to get them to step into what
• 1:09:10
  they're wanting to step into, yeah.
• 1:09:12
  Because we don't. I mean, look, we and coaches
• 1:09:15
  don't do this. And we don't do this in the
• 1:09:17
  support group either. You know, we don't tell people
• 1:09:21
  what to do, right? OK.
• 1:09:24
  You know, it's like, here's my experience.
• 1:09:27
  Or here's what happened. Here's what worked for me.
• 1:09:29
  Here's what didn't work for me. Okay.
• 1:09:33
  And now you take that and make it your own in ways that are
• 1:09:37
  going to work for you. I mean, a coach helps you do
• 1:09:39
  that, but a coach doesn't tell you what to do.
• 1:09:42
  You know and and and and that you know the other thing.
• 1:09:46
  So being able to do that actively now and also being able
• 1:09:52
  to spend a lot of time. In in with the Ministry and it
• 1:09:59
  gives me, it gives me a real opportunity to, you know, trying
• 1:10:05
  to help catch some people at their low moments, you know, and
• 1:10:08
  get them into a community where you're not, so you know you're
• 1:10:14
  not so isolated. No, and I think that fills you
• 1:10:17
  up. You know when you when you know
• 1:10:18
  you're coaching somebody at a low moment and you can help them
• 1:10:21
  and you can put them around the path that they want to be on or
• 1:10:23
  need to be on, there's there's no better feeling than that.
• 1:10:28
  It really, it really is rewarding.
• 1:10:30
  It really is. For those who want to get in
• 1:10:34
  touch with you, Bill is white collarcoaching.com.
• 1:10:38
  Is that what that is? Yes, yeah, that white
• 1:10:41
  collarcoaching.com if you're interested in.
• 1:10:46
  May be participating in the white collar support group.
• 1:10:50
  You can e-mail me at info@prisonistthatsprisonistlikefeminist.org
• 1:10:59
  And also I just wanted to also put a plug in on Thursday
• 1:11:03
  nights. A friend of mine has runs a
• 1:11:08
  company called Evolution Reentry.
• 1:11:11
  It's in Connecticut but I I facilitate a family.
• 1:11:16
  Justice impacted support group on Thursday nights and if you
• 1:11:21
  know anybody you know any listeners know anybody who has
• 1:11:25
  family that have you know incarcerated friends or loved
• 1:11:29
  ones they can just go to evolutionreentry.com and there's
• 1:11:34
  a there's a link there for support group for families.
• 1:11:38
  So and I will I will get that and and and get you and get you
• 1:11:43
  involved. That's awesome, Bill.
• 1:11:45
  I love it. I love your story.
• 1:11:47
  I love how you've come out of it.
• 1:11:48
  I've love how you've taken your experience and and built on
• 1:11:53
  something that you know about and you can help people and it
• 1:11:56
  fills you up and and it's a great nightmare success story.
• 1:12:00
  For those who are looking for a book named Nightmare Success, I
• 1:12:06
  wrote one. You can get it at Amazon, Barnes
• 1:12:09
  and Noble. If you got time, man, I'll tell
• 1:12:14
  you. Leaving a review on Apple or
• 1:12:15
  Spotify really puts the the show on steroids.
• 1:12:18
  And man, if you get anything out of the show, share it, share it,
• 1:12:21
  share it, share it. It's easy to share.
• 1:12:23
  Just hit that forward button and share it out.
• 1:12:27
  From getting more of my stuff. brentcassidy.com remember I
• 1:12:31
  spelled Cassidy wrong? I don't not Sean or David.
• 1:12:33
  I spell it with a Ty and as I used to say when I was writing
• 1:12:39
  my emails back and forth when I was in.
• 1:12:41
  Stay strong and I'll do the same.
• 1:12:44
  Bill, thanks so much for being on the show today.
• 1:12:46
  Appreciate. It oh, no thank you.
• 1:12:48
  This is it's been a this has been great fun.
• 1:12:50
  Thank you. Nine more success in and out.