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A Jungian Sense of Place: Bollingen and The Tower on the Marsh · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I think what's interesting about Jung's sort of psycho-architectural history,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: if you like, is that the prototypes, if you like,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: or the typologies of Bollingen, which you might consider as
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: the cell, the castle, the tower, are all associated with very,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: very potent what you might call animations, anima encounters. So
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I think that's To me, rather enchanting how this other,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: in his case, saint animal, feminine, is just present at
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: these kind of key architectural moments as much as emotional moments.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Welcome to this Jungian life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod. Today,
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  Speaker 4: it's a wonderful treat to have two guests talking about
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: Jung and towers, and Jung's analisand, Christiana Morgan, who was
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: inspired by Jung's tower in Bowlingon and built her own
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: tower on the marsh in Newburyport, Massachusetts. So let me
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: tell you a little bit about Martin and about Hillary.
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  Speaker 4: Martin is an architect, and he's a former senior lecturer
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: in England at the University of Bath. And he also
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: holds a master's degree in Jungian studies from Essex University.
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: And he's combined both of his incredible interests in architecture
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  Speaker 4: and Jung's tower and other places in Jung's life where
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  Speaker 4: architecture and a sense of place influenced Jung so strongly.
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  Speaker 4: And Jung's Tower is a sort of an application of
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  Speaker 4: a lot of his ideas, the symbolic and the spiritual.
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  Speaker 4: He's given lots of lectures in Jungian communities around the world.
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  Speaker 4: And this book, which I'm about to mention, please order it,
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: is the culmination of 12 years of work. It was
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: the subject of his master's thesis and his PhD thesis.
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  Speaker 4: And it is absolutely fascinating and a unique contribution to
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: the body of work about Jung because it deals with place, buildings,
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  Speaker 4: influences as a substrate of Jung's work. The name of
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  Speaker 4: the book is The Bollingen Tower, Constructing a Jungian Sense
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  Speaker 4: of Place by Martin Gledhill, spelled just like it sounds.
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: And we'll put the title in the show notes. And
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  Speaker 4: we also have a friend from the past who has
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  Speaker 4: been on a podcast almost two years ago, Hilary Morgan,
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  Speaker 4: who came on to tell us about her grandmother's tower
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  Speaker 4: that I mentioned, Christiana Morgan's Tower on the Marsh. Hilary
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  Speaker 4: is Christiana's granddaughter, and she is a filmmaker who has
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  Speaker 4: made a film well worth watching if you haven't done
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: so already. You can see it online at www.towerofdreamsdoc.com. So
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: look that up for sure. Hillary's made documentaries for many years,
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  Speaker 4: literally all over the world, for PBS and National Geographic.
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  Speaker 4: And this film, about the Tower on the Marsh, she
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  Speaker 4: made in 2019. Having had a long interest, in her
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: grandmother's work and the very unique aspects of her grandmother's tower.
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: So we're going to see where all this conversation takes us.
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: And Martin, I have lifted some things from your book.
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  Speaker 4: So here's what I'm thinking about. Everything that a building
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  Speaker 4: can be, a building can transform. The idea of psychic place.
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  Speaker 4: and formative place, a real and imagined place, an archetypal place,
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  Speaker 4: a dream place. And you discuss all these multivalent aspects
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  Speaker 4: of Bollingen, von Franz's tower, the Morgan Tower in your book.
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  Speaker 5: So where do we start?
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  Speaker 1: Probably by honoring... Jung and Christiana just, you know, and
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  Speaker 1: von Franz says, what a thing to do, to create
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: this place, this place that was more than, well, more
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  Speaker 1: than a place, wasn't it, really? It was a kind
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  Speaker 1: of place of soul, place of the self for all
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  Speaker 1: of them in very different ways. But yeah, incredible, an
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: incredible act, really. Thank you, Carl. Thank you, Christiana. Thank you, Marie-Louise.
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  Speaker 4: I'm remembering that you said, you know, there were in
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  Speaker 4: the book about how there were all these stages of
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: building the tower. And then in Memories, Dreams, Reflections, Jung's memoir,
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  Speaker 4: he talks about the stages as having begun with the
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  Speaker 4: idea of repose and renewal.
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  Speaker 5: And then in.
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  Speaker 4: The first round tower, that has the kitchen in it,
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  Speaker 4: very primitive, but that that's the maternal hearth. And then
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  Speaker 4: an area later on, he kept adding to it, the
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  Speaker 4: area of retirement, a place where he could.
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  Speaker 5: Go by himself.
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  Speaker 4: And then finally a need for a larger space, so
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  Speaker 4: he constructed a courtyard and a loggia, which is sort
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: of just outside but has a roof. Finally, at the
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  Speaker 4: very end, after his wife Emma had died, he put
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  Speaker 4: a top part on it that he said had to
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  Speaker 4: do with his— represented his ego personality.
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  Speaker 5: So this is a.
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  Speaker 4: Pretty psychological endeavor. It was never like what I imagine
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  Speaker 4: many people do when they just, you know, build a house.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I suppose— I feel really uncomfortable criticizing MDR,
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  Speaker 1: but I'm going to do it anyway. I think one
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  Speaker 1: of the key points that he makes, which is not
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: a criticism, it's a sort of honoring, is that the
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: interpretations he makes, or Jaffe made, because probably that chapter
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: was not written by Jung, occurred to him latterly. He
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: wasn't working in the first instance, apart from maybe the
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  Speaker 1: primitive the first tower from an overtly psychic manifesto you
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  Speaker 1: know the patterns kind of emerged you might say naturally
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: and I suppose why which is the critical bit why
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  Speaker 1: I find the MDR account a little bit problematic A
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: is it's very brief it conflates different stages so you
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: might say it's kind of inaccurate but it I think
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: whenever we say something is, when you're working symbolically, I
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: don't think we could say that. Do you know what
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: I mean? That I think evokes or, you know, I
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: know it sounds a bit pernickety, but I think maybe
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  Speaker 1: that's why he never spoke so extensively about the tower,
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  Speaker 1: that it's inexplicable in a sense, or it cannot be reduced,
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  Speaker 1: if you like, to this equals that. So that's my
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  Speaker 1: sense of MDR, but it's only actually two pages long,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: the description of the tower.
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  Speaker 5: Well, I think it's so interesting how the towers were
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: places that were never complete. The whole sense that it's
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: not a finished product, that it's something that sort of
• 9:05
  Speaker 5: always perplexed me a great deal because early on in
• 9:09
  Speaker 5: researching the project, at least about my grandmother's tower, I
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: read somewhere that Harry Murray, her partner of 40 years,
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: he came to visit two years before he died. And
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: as he walked up to the place, he said that
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  Speaker 5: the tower was a place that was never complete. It
• 9:26
  Speaker 5: was always an ongoing, unfinished product. And having grown up
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  Speaker 5: next door to the tower in a rustic cabin and
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: having visited a lot, I didn't really understand how it
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  Speaker 5: could be that a place that had had so much
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  Speaker 5: work and seemed like a completed project to me was
• 9:44
  Speaker 5: an ongoing, uncompleted building. And then I started to study
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: Jung and then realized, ah, it's a symbol for the
• 9:54
  Speaker 5: individuation process and that it's always ongoing, that one is
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: always searching for wholeness and that the similarity of the
• 10:01
  Speaker 5: buildings and the psyche are parallel in that whole process.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really good point, isn't it? Because I suppose,
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  Speaker 1: you know, the account in MTR positions the ego personality as,
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  Speaker 1: and I think you said something like, and I declared
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  Speaker 1: it complete, or, you know, that was both geometrically, you know,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: it was a triangle, but also kind of psychologically. I'm
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  Speaker 1: not so sure Jung would have said that, actually, which
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  Speaker 1: is developing your point that it's complete at that moment,
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  Speaker 1: you know. I mean, it's a restless place, isn't it?
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  Speaker 1: It's a restless place in terms of its kind of
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: spiritual ambience, but also its kind of architecture is... absolutely
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: wonderfully iterative, isn't it? You know, it's always added to,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: subtracted to. And I just love that about it.
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  Speaker 5: Well, I was curious, too, to understand how you spoke
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  Speaker 5: about bullying and being a wish and the tower being
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: a plot. I was curious if you could explain that
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  Speaker 5: a little bit.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know. This sounds really pretentious, but I'm
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: going to say it anyway.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: That I think when I was writing the book, there
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  Speaker 1: was a point when I felt as it was writing itself.
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  Speaker 1: And so you get these kind of accidents of language.
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  Speaker 1: Plot just occurred to me. I mean, plot can be
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  Speaker 1: read as place content, but also a theatrical plot. And
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  Speaker 1: so I've lost the point that you made, Hilary.
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  Speaker 5: Oh, it was the quote about Bullingham being a wish
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  Speaker 5: and the tower being a plot.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not sure I remember writing that, actually. But I
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  Speaker 1: think Jung's... Well, I know that Jung's great-grandson, Daniel Baumann,
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  Speaker 1: who has been very helpful, and I share his conviction.
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  Speaker 1: I think Jung always wanted a tower. He was always
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: wishing for a tower. You know, right from his youth,
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  Speaker 1: his building games. So I think it was embodied in him.
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  Speaker 1: But I think that the... plot aspect of it does
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  Speaker 1: a little bit come out in the house well I
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  Speaker 1: call the house dream but I think Debs you call
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  Speaker 1: the two skull dreams that it's a story that's adapted
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  Speaker 1: and it's sort of keeping track with the tower so
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  Speaker 1: I have this slight sense that the tower is suggesting
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  Speaker 1: you know if you sort of personify the tower if
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: you like is suggesting ideas and work and Jung sort
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  Speaker 1: of feeding back and sort of plotting its kind of evolution.
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  Speaker 1: Does that make any sense? You know, there's a... You
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  Speaker 1: wouldn't say it's under Stark as curating it, but I
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  Speaker 1: think he's very alert to accidents and he sort of
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  Speaker 1: configures them into his work and into that place. You know,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: the classic one is what I call the filament stone.
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  Speaker 1: You know, the accident of the arrival of the cube.
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  Speaker 1: So I think... I think it is constructed in the
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  Speaker 1: widest sense. Does that make sense? That it's narrated, it's constructed,
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  Speaker 1: and retrospectively MDR is part of that construction, which can be... Oh,
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  Speaker 1: that's interesting.
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  Speaker 4: That the MDR construction about the tower, the story of
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  Speaker 4: the tower, it is constructed. just as the tower was constructed,
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  Speaker 4: but not in an entirely sort of cerebral or planned way.
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  Speaker 4: It kept adding to itself in a way like a dream.
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  Speaker 4: And I just want to fill in for listeners the
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  Speaker 4: reference to Jung's dream that, you know, in my association
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  Speaker 4: with Jungians, we always call it the two skulls dream.
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  Speaker 4: And in the index, it's called something altogether different, which
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: really made me laugh about it. They call it the
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  Speaker 4: multi-storied house, which is in fact what it is. And
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  Speaker 4: the dream is that he's in the upper story of
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  Speaker 4: a living room, basically with fine old pieces in a
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: Rococo style with oil paintings and so on. And Jung,
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: as the dreamer, thinks to himself, not bad. Then he
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: decides to go down a floor. Let's see what that
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: looks like. And down he goes. And that's a story
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  Speaker 4: that dated from the 15th or 16th century with medieval
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: furnishings and red brick floors. And then he says to
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: himself in the dream, oh, gosh, now I've really got
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  Speaker 4: to go look at what's in the rest of the house.
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  Speaker 4: He comes on the heavy door. He goes down another stair.
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  Speaker 4: There's stone and brick and so on. And then he's
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: at a level that dated back where the walls dated
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: from Roman times. So he says, well, now my interest
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: was intense. And he looks even more closely, and he
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: sees that on the floor, there is a stone slab
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: with a ring to lift it. And again, a stairway,
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: but this time very narrow stone steps and a low cave.
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: And there on a dirt floor, very, very old, are
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  Speaker 4: two human skulls, obviously very old and half disintegrated, and
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  Speaker 4: he awoke. And so thinking about Jung's life, how he
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: rendered some of these ideas into actuality with Bollingen, that
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: it links the above, the towers that go up, with
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: what the depths of psyche are, even though the house
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: itself does not contain a basement because it's so close
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: to Lake Zurich.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I mean, again, this is a hypothesis. Well,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, who can say about truth? But I think
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: the discovery of the Napoleonic soldier, the great, you know,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: the skeleton is wonderfully serendipitous, isn't it? Because it does
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: add that forgotten layer. And actually, when you go into
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: the first tower, the ground floor is quite different to
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: the upper floor. You know, it's almost grading. And he admits,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: doesn't he, that even as they were building it, they
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: were moving beyond the primitive, if you like. But I
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: think it's just how wonderful that you might say forgotten
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: events somehow surfaced to kind of cooperate with his dreams.
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  Speaker 1: So that's one point. The second point, I mean, Freud
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: interpreted the dream as a sort of death wish. And
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: that death wish, Jung sort of camouflaged by suggesting that
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: it was towards Emma and her sister, Gret, because that
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: was during the period of marital difficulties. But actually, he
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: was thinking and beginning to diverge from Freud. So who
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: can say what a dream sounds? But he does adapt
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: that dream a lot. There's four versions of it. And
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: then in the last telling in Man and His Symbols,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: it's changed quite a lot, which, I mean, that's not
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: my idea. I can't remember the lady who wrote the paper,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: but a really nice paper on that kind of ongoing process.
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: That's so interesting. It's exactly like Bowlingon, that this dream
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: changes as he goes along. And it's true that dreams
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: are not static. What we recall and what it means
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: and the current version fits. And somebody could say, yes,
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: but that's not what you said the first time.
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah. So many years ago. And we say, that's right.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: That's right.
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: It's not what I said. And Bowling Inn is really
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: evidence of that in stone, of.
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: What comes next.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I suppose I'm kind of interested in the,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: and this is a point that Andreas Jung has touched
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: on in his really lovely book about Kushnacht, how you
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: can see the two homes as a kind of split
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: pair or a kind of reductive view of two personalities
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: or a continuum. Because I think that Kushnacht was so
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: modified by the act of an architect, never employ an.
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: Architect, But you're an architect, Martin.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: I know, never employed. That there was a kind of deficit.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Some of the early drawings of Kushnakt are quite similar
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: to the tower in many ways. And so there's this
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: kind of deficit that is kind of satiated in Bollingen.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: But I just love the idea of them as a
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: continuum rather than family home retreat, you know, which is
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: the kind of normal.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: So we might say, I mean, I'm stretching what you've said,
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: that Kushnacht, which was the family home, all very proper,
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: very large. You could take tours through it. Now it's
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: a proper upper class kind of home versus Bowling Inn
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: which is much more primitive all the towers they correspond
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: to his number one and number two personalities.
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: Which Jung talks about.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: That his ego personality is one thing but he has
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: this old unconscious.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: It's kind of archaic, isn't it?
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: The archaic expression that is also a huge part of him.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just to develop that, I think they,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: as I say, sort of cooperate. But Kushnacht was finished when,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I think when, I forget the date, it's kind of,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: you know, 1907 or something. And so, yeah, my main
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: point is there's this kind of, deficit that somehow Kushnack
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: has been adapted. It's probably under quite considerable influence from Emma.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: And so the dream, how interesting that the dream appears
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: at a point that he would say that gives him
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: his divergence from Freud, but actually is giving him a
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: kind of signal for this other place. I mean, other, literally,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: with a capital O.
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: Well, it's interesting that Kushnack still has a tower. that
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: didn't he work that out with a, he, there was
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: a little bit of conflict with his architect, but he
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: still insisted on the tower that is the main feature
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: when you first walk up.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Well, at one stage it had two towers.
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: But the original drawings show this kind of grading from
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: a kind of what you'd call rusticated, you know, very
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: lumpy stones to this kind of Baroque volutes on the,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: and these are Jung's sketches. But it's been, I don't
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: know the word, but it's been sort of gentrified. It's
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: quite polite. I think it's a wonderful house, but it's
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: quite polite. Whereas, you know, Bollingen is more unfettered, really,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: isn't it? It's quite visceral, in a sense.
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: Well, and I find interesting that in Kunstnacht with the tower,
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: it's actually where the patients would come up to see
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: him that, You come in the front door and you
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: hit the stairs and you wind up the tower to
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: go to the waiting room and to his office. So
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: it's interesting that that was the placement of it, I think.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there's a rather delightful comparison between Freud's study
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: and Jung's, their therapy spaces. The therapy spaces at Berghausen are...
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: away from the family. They're kind of split from the family.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: They're obviously in the same apartment, but you don't go
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: through the family. Whereas to an extent, that spiral, that
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: ascent in Krishna is kind of through the family. I
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: know there's a glass, there's a frosted screen between them,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: but how wonderful the difference. The difference is architectural as
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: much as intellectual. And actually, Kushnack is about four, maybe
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: five times the size of Freud's house, Freud's apartment. So,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: you know, a kind of house envy, if you like.
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: Well, I think it's also interesting how Jung's Bollingen seems
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: so much more inspired by his dreams. For Christiana, she
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: did have a vision of a long white column that
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: Jung described as sort of a yin-yang. a phallic symbol,
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: and then next to it was this Poseidon or Neptune,
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: very small figure that her animus or, you know, the
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: leader to the underworld. She was then, as far as
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: Jung was saying, he felt that she needed to kind
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: of emerge, to ascend out of the depths to this place,
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: and that she needed to lose herself by this column,
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: and which ultimately meant to find herself. But I don't think,
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: you know, in the readings that I've done of hers,
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: I don't see too much reference to that. To me,
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: it was more the creation of the tower that she
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: and Harry built, I think, was inspired more by Harry
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: visiting Jung in Kunstnacht for three weeks. And while he
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: was there, this was like 1925, while he was there,
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: Jung apparently took him to Bollingen. And when he came back,
• 24:23
  Speaker 5: he told Christiane about it. And that was the prime
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: inspiration for their building the tower.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's a really beautiful point, actually. I found
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: myself wrestling between Deirdre Bair's account of Murray visiting in 1925,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: which I'm sure you'll be much more correct, or Clare Douglas's,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: says he visited Bollingen in the mid-30s. But that's quite
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: important because I think it's a lovely point that he's
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: influenced by Kushnacht, but I was wrestling with how influenced
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: they were by Bollingen. And of course, across that time period,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: in 1925, it would have just been one tower. In
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: the mid-30s, it would have had certainly the second tower,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: the spiritual tower, but also probably the courtyard. So I
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: know it sounds like a moot point, but what did
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: he see? What did he see? We won't know. We
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: Well, and Christiane also, first, when I was making this film,
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: I interviewed the builder's son, and he had some very
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: rough sketches. They're in the film. But working with the
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: architectural historian in our group, he was actually able to
• 25:42
  Speaker 5: go to the architectural firm that helped build the tower
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: and found actual blueprints. So what we... originally thought was
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: just kind of Harry and Christiana and Kenneth Knight, the builder,
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: coming up with sketches to create this tower. It now
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: turns out that they actually did hire professional architects.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think Kenneth Knight's son in your lovely
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: film says, oh, I don't think there was an architect involved,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: which is a red herring. I mean, maybe they just
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: did the original scheme, but there's a really use for
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: those drawings and you were very kind in sharing them.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Because the first two floors are half the height of
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: the final thing. So there's a kind of something architects do,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: you know, that they sort of set up proportioning systems
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: and things. So, you know, they're an absolute gift, aren't they,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: to begin some interpretation, I suppose. Is that right? The study,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: the thalamus of the mind, I think you called it,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: isn't it? I think it's twice the height, isn't it?
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: It is much higher, but I think that given the proportions,
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: I mean, the first cabin that they built, which is
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: now called the main room or the great room, extends
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: straight out to the beginning of the tower, which is
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: the level of the bedroom. So I think there was
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: a certain constraint with the geography. And then they had
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: to dynamite out the bottom floor, the meditation room. And
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: I think wanting that sort of low because it was
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: sort of a cave-like, you know, the symbol of the unconscious,
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: the place of rituals and meditation. And then, as you say,
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: the last floor being the thalamus, it is a domed
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: roof and it is much taller. So what I found
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: interesting about when you were talking about the four and
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: its symbol of spatial unity, The tower as it stands
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: now is three rooms. But then in the top floor,
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: the study, the thalamus, there is a metal ladder that
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: leads up to the roof. And you were sort of
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: saying that that rooftop was really probably a fourth element
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: to the architecture. And what I wanted to add to
• 28:13
  Speaker 5: you about that is that when they first designed the tower,
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: they were going to make that into an observatory. So
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: it actually would have been a fourth, interestingly. Yeah. And
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: in my studying, you know, more recently, the kind of
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: layout of the tower, I've realized that it actually does,
• 28:33
  Speaker 5: as separate components have four elements, it's a quadrant, and
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: that you have the tower itself as one, you have
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: the cabin or the great room attached to it as two.
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: And then she added a kitchen and And then what
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: we now call the sunroom, which was very similar to
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: the logia, which was originally open. It didn't have the
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: pane glass windows it has now. It was open to
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: the outside. But those are four separate elements. So there again,
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: a fourth was created as far as the structural unity
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: of the place. It's amazing that just the symbolism and
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: the thought that went into absolutely everything that went on.
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: It's really extraordinary.
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: And I'm thinking about the correspondence between Jung's dream of,
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: you know, ego and modernity on the more or less
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: top floor, you know, down to this primitive basement, the unconscious.
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: And what Jung did in Bolingan there was a room
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: there that was only for him, of his own place
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: for unconscious ruminations. And then the Morgan Tower... He painted
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: the paintings on the walls. Yes, and he painted the paintings.
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: It was of.
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: And then the Morgan Tower with her study at the
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: top of the tower for the intellectual ego work, which
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: Jung finally said, however accurate it is, that he added
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: last at the tower, but that we go, the symbolism
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: of top to bottom, ego to psyche, carries through With intention,
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: but also it seems like it's just psychic reality that
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: this is, of course, the way it should be.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: I think what we can develop out of that, and
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I know I would say this as an architect, I
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: think the correspondence between the needs of the moment and
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: practical constraint are not the enemy of psychic intent. Do
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? The idea that we're going
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: to be symbolic and everything else just goes out the window.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: I just love the idea of them, you know, they
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: needed a kitchen, didn't they, Christianas? You know, Jung was
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: playing cat and mouse with the children, you know, just
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: trying to get away from everyone. So the needs of
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: the moment gave birth to something enchanting, I suppose.
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so much union of so many opposites, of
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: the rational need for planning with an architect part of it, and...
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: constructing a place that is a home you know for
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: your soul that that this is my creation this is
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: what mirrors me and the above and the below and
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: and the the interior and exterior of there's so many
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: dualities uh kushnakt and bowling and they get unified through
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: through the tower and I'm aware we haven't talked about
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: the interiors of the Morgan Tower. We see what's outside,
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: but the interior, I think, is astonishing. And you know
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: more about what's on the interior of Bowlingon, but visitors
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: are not permitted in that part of the building.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the inside of Christianos is... The photographs that you've
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: kindly shared, Hilaria, I mean, it's a total work of art,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: isn't it? It is.
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: They say the Gusamtikunstwerk, which is a total piece of art. Yeah,
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: she married the architecture of the building to the architectural
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: landscape and the sculptures and artwork she did inside all
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: together to create one universal piece that speaks together as
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: one art.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: I think I've always been enchanted by the resonance between the,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: is it Lachaise, the sculpture of her?
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: Oh, say what that is, Hilary, so people don't know
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: the sculpture. They commissioned Gaston Lachaise to do a sculpture. First,
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: it began as a bust of Christiana, and then it
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: extended down to, I guess, her waist, and then eventually
• 33:15
  Speaker 5: down to... to her thighs, and they were actually hoping
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: to do a full statue, but he was preparing for
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: a retrospective at the Metropolitan in New York, so he
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: had to stop. But they had this beautiful sculpture of Christiana, new, done,
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: and it would sit in the gardens of the tower
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: in the summertime, and then that was brought downstairs into
• 33:39
  Speaker 5: the meditation room in the winter.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: But I think the, I mean, it's a I've never
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: seen it, but from the photographs that I have seen,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: it's a beautiful thing. But I suppose the echo, if
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: that's the word, or the reflection in Philemon, so in
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: the upper floor of the tower, this painting of Philemon,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: which is also in the Red Book, this huge winged
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: figure standing over the bed, this kind of this contrast
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: between this kind of imaginary figure, shall we say, this
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: loving figure, and this other figure, the figure of Christiana,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: you know, I love that speaking, if you like, between
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: the two.
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: Well, the tower was, you know, an exploration and a
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: place to reconnect to the feminine and to nature and
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: to instincts. And that was a lot of what she
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: felt as if she was you know, moving past what
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: she called her inherited religion or culture, which was Christianity,
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: which had done so much to, it was, you know,
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: dogmatic with its beliefs and repression of the feminine and
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: the sensuality of the body that she was there to undo.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so beautifully and in some senses, Tragically, I guess. Yeah,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: just these two figures that kind of are emblems. I mean,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Bollingen is dedicated to Philemon, shrine to Philemon, repentance for Faust.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: And I think it's, you know, what I think he's
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: trying to say there is he's kind of anti-modern. But
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: I don't think it is anti-modern. It's very easy to
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: read it as medieval and kind of historicist. I think
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: when you look at it architecturally, it's very clever. But
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: also its attitude is kind of transmodern in a sense
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: that it assimilates psychic material rather than just material.
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: Are we possibly veering into the dangerous territory of masculine
• 35:59
  Speaker 5: and feminine?
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: We might do, and I'm a bit outnumbered, so.
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: Feeling a little anxious about where these two women might go?
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm happy to go with that. Okay.
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: But I am thinking, you used the word medieval, and
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: there is a sort of medieval solidity, even stolidity to
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: Bowlingon from my perspective. And Christiana Morgan's tower is... somehow
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: much more accessible and open and has a lightness to it.
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: And that first vision, which is right there in the film,
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: and so uplifting. That first vision when I saw the tower,
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: I just gasped. Mm-hmm. of that there it was, just
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: rising on the bank of the river in a spirit of,
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: I don't know, just a kind of openness versus the
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: closedness of Bowlingon.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the painting that Hilary mentioned, you know,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: the luminous column, you know, it absolutely captures that spirit
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: of emergence. but with a delicacy and a luminosity as
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: much as a luminosity, isn't it? I don't know. I
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: don't think it splits neatly, does it? But it is
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: quite stolid. And actually, von Franz's tower is even more so.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: But then it's relieved by beautiful touches of the mandala
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: over the fireplace. So I think they both... Well, that
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: would be the synergy, you know, that kind of transit
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: between two energies, I suppose. Sorry, just to hulk the point,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: but I think what's interesting about Jung's sort of psycho-architectural history,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: if you like, is that the prototypes, if you like,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: or the typologies of Bollingen, which you might consider as
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: the cell, the castle, the tower, are all associated with very,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: very potent, what you might call animations, anima encounters. The
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: young girl at Brother Klaus's cell, his association with Emma's
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: mother on the banks of the Rhine, where this is.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: So I think that's, to me, rather enchanting how this other,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: in his case, Saint Anima or Feminine, is just present
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: at these kind of key architectural moments as much as
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: emotional moments. There's some very lovely drawings of both Kushnacht
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: and Bollingen by Sabi Tauba, who she and her husband
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: were friends of Jung's. And she draws the tower as
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: though it's got a big spiral staircase. But she's drawing
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: the tower. She's not drawing Kushnow. And she also draws
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: a picture of arrival through this, you know, it's almost
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: like Merlin's hut, you know, in the wood. And I
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: think they absolutely capture the spirit of it and transcend,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: you know, the kind of solid and delicate or solid
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: and effete. Does that make sense? You know, her imagination is...
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: adapted it somehow. They're really lovely drawings, or paintings, really.
• 39:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think, you know, what's interesting about Christiana's
• 39:59
  Speaker 5: was the sort of private language of symbols that she
• 40:04
  Speaker 5: and Harry set up. You know, that even in the gardens,
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: there were these paths that they would build, and they
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: would line them with statuary and inscriptions of They planted
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: all the trees and gave names to the various parts
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: of the garden and to each major tree that was
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: in the garden. They had, like, Bullion Circle and Guardian
• 40:32
  Speaker 5: Hill and Via Sacra and Gortes Brow. And they would,
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: you know, ritualize these places. And, you know, everything was symbolic.
• 40:44
  Speaker 5: Everything represented... something of the knowledge and what they'd learned,
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: you know, of their journey into their psyche, which was
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: so profound. And then throughout the tower, it's the same
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: way with her carvings and the artifacts that she plays,
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: the paintings on the walls. It was so meticulously thought out.
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: It's really, really interesting.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a kind of... In some sense, it's a
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: kind of animism, isn't it? The sort of animating of
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: the natural as well as the artistic world. I mean, Jung,
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: in his letters, he talks about many of the carvings
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: at Bollingen as being emergent. They weren't carved into the stone.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: They emerged from the stone. So I'm really fascinated about
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: this is kind of unfinished work of analytical psychology, psyche
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: and matter, you know, that, you know, it kind of
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: rhymes with the kind of ecological issues, you know, that
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: the stone is alive, it just breathes slower sort of thing.
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: Well, and you bring that wonderful part about the Jung
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: being connected to the arts and crafts movement of the
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: alignment of the head and the heart and the hand
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: in the creation of connecting psyche and matter with with creating,
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: which is really beautiful. Yeah, it's really gorgeous.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: So it's just utterly enchanting and really difficult, you know,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: trying to kind of navigate through these things.
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: I find myself going back to all these dualities, you know,
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: so I'm adding a couple more of Jung's carvings on
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: the outside of Bollingen, of there's a bear and I
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: forget what else. I'm sure you know them all by heart, Martin.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: There's a horse with a mare who's being milked by
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: a woman. Yeah.
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: And of all the things, you know why that? But psyche,
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: you know, that's what emerged. I remember reading something about
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: Michelangelo saying that he just released the forms that were
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: already within the marble. But You know, and I'm thinking
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: about Christiana Morgan's carvings. I mean, they are remarkable throughout
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: her tower and in the main room, the great room,
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: that she learned to carve in wood. And there's one
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: up above the bed with script.
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: It is remarkable.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: But, you know, that here is the interior was such
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: a focus for her. And for Jung, with the logia
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: and the inscriptions of family, heraldic structures, that's.
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: All on the outside.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's partly, yeah, maybe. But I think the spiritual
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: tower is, as far as I know, I've never been
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: into it, is entirely surrounded in paintings. And the upper
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: floor of the first tower has these two significant paintings,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: Emily's Star and Philemon. And there are quite a lot
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: of other moments that are added. So, you know, the
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: more famous ones are on the outside.
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: Let me amend what I said, that it's a private
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: structure with the paintings are for him and maybe a
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: select few. Whereas the Morgan Tower has an openness to
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: it and it's all very visible and can be shared.
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: And then the other contrast I'm thinking about is Bollingen
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: was for Jung. It was his retreat and he said,
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: you know, that there was nowhere where he was more
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: fully himself than when he was there at Bollingen alone.
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: Whereas the Morgan Tower was built for two people, Henry
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: Murray and Christiana Morgan, to carry Jung's work, they hoped,
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: forward by translating it into an interpersonal relationship.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really lovely point, isn't it? That two-ness,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: it's not a division, it's a union. I suppose somebody
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: contradicting that, but I think because Bollingen was also a
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: holiday home. Well, actually, so was Christiana's. Jung had to
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: navigate with kind of intruders, didn't he, if you like.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: You know, either family intruders or, you know, kind of visitors.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: So it probably wasn't quite as vigorously introverted as kind
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: of history records. I mean, who knows?
• 45:54
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: But I get the sense that it was quite a
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: lot going on there. And a second point, and I got...
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: very little basis to say this. I've often wondered about
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: Tony Wolfe's involvement in the Tower because the photograph on
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Nan Savage Healy's lovely book about her has the two
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: of them standing together. In actual fact, those are two
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: photographs that have been put together, but the point still
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: stands that at the height of their relationship and collaboration,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: perhaps not the relationship, but the collaboration, that's when the
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: Tao's coming. So kind of what was, do you know
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: what I mean? What was her, you know, it's been
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: edited out, isn't it, from MDR and what was it?
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it felt to me from your book as if
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: Jung's Bollingen was much more of an evolution, that as
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: you said, he started it with Tony. It became a
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: very private place. He took only certain people there for
• 47:02
  Speaker 5: a while. The children came along and then Emma started
• 47:06
  Speaker 5: to begin to like it. So she came, the children came.
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: There was the building of the annex on top for
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: the children's bedrooms to accommodate them. But then there was
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: a spiritual tower. And so it seemed like it evolved
• 47:21
  Speaker 5: and it was many things in his life and in
• 47:23
  Speaker 5: his family. Whereas Christiana's tower was very much a place
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: that that she built for her and Harry. And then
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: I think most of the time she was there by herself,
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: but Harry did come. And a similar little, just one
• 47:39
  Speaker 5: little detail that I thought was so interesting in your book,
• 47:42
  Speaker 5: you talked about how Jung would put a yellow flag
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: signaling for people not to come. Well, oddly, Christiana did
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: the same thing with a red flag. I mean, with
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: a black flag. We knew when the black flag was
• 47:55
  Speaker 5: flying that we were not to come close. And because
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: we had a separate building, we never did intrude in
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: the same way that his children were there living. So
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: she kept it much more separate.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: What's funny about the flag thing is that in the
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: English sensibility, to fly a flag shows you're at home.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: But actually, he was saying, well, I kind of am
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: at home, but keep out. So it's sort of flipped somehow. Yeah,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: I think I agree. I think... architecturally and almost in
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: terms of its inhabitation. Christiana's tower is kind of, if
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: you could use the word, purer, isn't it? Bollingen is
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: always fighting with itself. It's fighting for privacy. You know,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: it's a battleground, basically, which is psychic as much as familial,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: isn't it, somehow?
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: Say more about that, that bullying is always fighting with itself.
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: That fits with my experience of having been there, but
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: I never thought about it in those terms before.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Well, it's only just kind of been given to me
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: actually from above. I think that essentially Jung is always
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: trying to reassert his privacy and his inner-ness, isn't he?
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: So the, you know, originally the kids camped outside and
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: presumably he and maybe Emma slept upstairs. And then, you know,
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: the spiritual tower reasserts that and then the fifth story
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: is he's always trying to get away from So he
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: was trying to get away. So that's the kind of
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: emotive response. I mean, architecturally, it's always flipping between the
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: kind of contingent, you know, what you might call vernacular
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: or free form, and the kind of statements, you know,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: the square or the circle. And as a result of that,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: he and his son, Franz, were always struggling to resolve
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: really complicated junctions, which would be complicated enough architecturally if
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: they didn't have a psychic kind of intent on top
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: of that. Does that make sense? So there's this kind
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: of psychic intent, this familial intent, and a kind of
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: architectural problem, if you like.
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: See if this feels like it might be kind of
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: an accurate reflection. Bollingen and maybe the Morgan Tower as well,
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: but Bollingen in particular, the lifelong or attempt over many
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: years to reconcile opposites of these dualities of Kushnack versus Bollingen,
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: all the things we've talked about, and now we're adding
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: another one of the private retreat for Jung alone and family.
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: the place where family could come. And that some of these,
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: I think it's just so very human that we don't
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: just resolve these dualities once and for all of like, oh, good,
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: you know, no more inner conflict, but continuing to wrestle
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: with the opposites in so, so many ways. And I'm
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: thinking for Christiana Morgan, some of those same opposites, a
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: place for her alone, a place for her and Harry,
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: and you, family members, lived right next door. Fortunately, Kushnotch
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: is a good ways away from Bowlingham, but you were
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: in a passel of grandkids who loved the tower and
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: wanted to climb up that ladder and get up on
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: the roof. And so she had a flag that said,
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: keep out.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: The black flag, yeah, yeah.
• 52:05
  Speaker 5: Or the black car, which meant that Harry was there visiting.
• 52:08
  Speaker 5: And then in later years, she built a fence, actually,
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: a wooden fence. So the messages got stronger and stronger. Yeah,
• 52:17
  Speaker 5: but throughout the duality of the secular and sacred, the unconscious, conscious,
• 52:23
  Speaker 5: the primitive, you know, they're such profound places. And I
• 52:30
  Speaker 5: love that they... that jung even wrote christiana about keeping
• 52:34
  Speaker 5: it her tower primitive as well that it was necessary
• 52:39
  Speaker 5: not to disturb the spirits of nature that that was
• 52:42
  Speaker 5: a integral part that to keep it such that there
• 52:45
  Speaker 5: was no electricity no running water that you know to
• 52:49
  Speaker 5: stay warm you'd build a fire and that that was
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: a way to keep it close to to the instincts.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah and it talks about um breaking the ground, which
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: actually was quite violent, wasn't it? You know, the explosive
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: of the rock, the great rock, releasing essentially spirits, isn't it? Which,
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, where do they, do they just, are they
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: just exiled or they just come back into the fabric?
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: You know, they belong there. That's their home as much
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: as Christiana and Harry's home. You know, it's a really
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: lovely letter that, isn't it? When he's talking about sharing
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: the process of building, I suppose.
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, and I love the story that the builder's son, David,
• 53:31
  Speaker 5: who I interview in the film, I don't think it's
• 53:34
  Speaker 5: in the film, but he talked about after the dynamite
• 53:37
  Speaker 5: went off, he was about six at the time, he
• 53:41
  Speaker 5: climbed down where the rubble was and he discovered this
• 53:45
  Speaker 5: really huge, large black snake. And I found that pretty
• 53:51
  Speaker 5: astounding because of all the summers growing up playing there,
• 53:54
  Speaker 5: I don't remember coming across any large black snakes. So
• 53:57
  Speaker 5: that That seemed like an interesting symbol of.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of, I don't know what you would
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: call it, but that kind of animal spirit that belongs there.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: You know, the snake, what a wonderful... How Jungian, if
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: you like. I think Jung was also chasing away the public.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: I think that's really why I think the courtyard wall
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: was built. Because, I mean, I'd be guilty of this,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: of going past on a boat and trying to get in.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: You know, so at the height of his fame, he
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: would have been pestered continually, I would have thought.
• 54:35
  Speaker 5: And he had some really interesting and odd experiences at Bollingen.
• 54:39
  Speaker 5: I'm wondering if there are corollaries with the Morgan Tower.
• 54:44
  Speaker 5: You mentioned the Napoleonic soldier and his daughter, when he
• 54:50
  Speaker 5: was building the tower, said, oh my gosh, you know,
• 54:52
  Speaker 5: you're not going to build something here, are you? There's
• 54:55
  Speaker 5: so many dead people around. And when they started to
• 54:59
  Speaker 5: do the building, they found the skeleton of a Napoleonic
• 55:03
  Speaker 5: soldier that his daughter had sensed was there. And Jung
• 55:09
  Speaker 5: gave that skeleton a proper formal burial ceremony. And then
• 55:16
  Speaker 5: there are the times that he heard people singing outside
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: the tower. And he'd open a window and there was
• 55:27
  Speaker 5: nothing there. And then go back and presumably sit down
• 55:32
  Speaker 5: and hear these spirits playing music and singing. The psyche
• 55:40
  Speaker 5: enters in these ways.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And he, I mean, as ever, under the
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: guise of scientism, I suppose, he, in a sense, tries
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: to explain that. And he observes that because that attributory
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: of the Jacob's Way, the James Way, runs near the tower.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: And I think he suggests that mercenaries were using that route.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: But there's another story where he hears, I think he
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: describes it as a polyphony, you know, multiple sounds, of
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: the nature and essentially singing. I mean, what an enchanting,
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: you know, rhyming with Hilary's point about the garden being alive.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: I must admit, when I was sitting there once, and
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: I'm sure this could be explained away if we wanted to,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: but A, there was a bee that was distracting. And
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: he talks about bees quite a lot. It was distracting.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: And I was kind of intrigued by this bee, as
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: though something had disturbed the place. And secondly, the water
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: was lapping in. But there were no boats around, you know,
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: so there was nothing that, and it was, I just
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: remember thinking there's something insisting and something disturbed. And I
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: don't know, I just remember that phenomena, I suppose you'd
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: call that.
• 57:11
  Speaker 5: So, Hilary, I'm wondering, given Jung's very interesting experiences at Bollingen,
• 57:18
  Speaker 5: of whether your grandmother, Christiana, ever, reported any special, interesting,
• 57:28
  Speaker 5: you know, out of the ordinary experiences at our tower?
• 57:33
  Speaker 5: You know, I don't remember. I was 12 when she died.
• 57:37
  Speaker 5: So I don't remember anything being described. I know, you know,
• 57:46
  Speaker 5: there was so much that seemed so spiritual and unusual
• 57:51
  Speaker 5: to me. Well, it didn't seem that unusual as a child,
• 57:54
  Speaker 5: but the ritual burning of the cuttings every year was
• 58:00
  Speaker 5: done on a particular year. Just everything was ritualized and
• 58:05
  Speaker 5: had symbols to it. So, yeah, it was really special
• 58:10
  Speaker 5: and unique that way.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: Nothing that ever happened for you in you personally? I'm
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: hoping for some magic here.
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: I don't remember. I don't remember at this point. Yeah.
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: Well, one thing that I do remember as having magic
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: to it is this ladder at the top floor of
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: the tower. which is just a metal ladder attached to
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: the wall. It couldn't be more rudimentary. And that you
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: and your siblings and cousins would climb up there and
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: go on the roof, and she let you. And in
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: today's world, kids would not be allowed up there.
• 58:59
  Speaker 5: No, and what was especially fun about it is if
• 59:02
  Speaker 5: she was sitting at her desk working, we had to
• 59:04
  Speaker 5: be very quiet. And because it was such a tall,
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: very thin, ladder, it was very challenging to get up
• 59:15
  Speaker 5: and to stay quiet. And then you had to push
• 59:17
  Speaker 5: really hard on the door to get it open. So
• 59:20
  Speaker 5: it was a particularly mysterious and fun thing to be
• 59:23
  Speaker 5: able to have to do. Yeah, we really enjoyed it.
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm thinking of another way of these edges that
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: get traversed from the ordinary to what is edgy, whether
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: it's sort of psychic or the edginess of climbing that
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: narrow little ladder up to a place that was dangerous.
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: And of course, as towers do, there's visibility, which is
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: one of the great advantages of towers is to be
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: able to see far and wide. But Martin, I know
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: you had an experience in and with Jung's Tower where
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: you were a little abducted by psyche, as it were.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Just before developing that, when Hilary was talking,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: I was thinking of, you know, Jung and the attic.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: the attic at Klein Hunnigan and the mannequin, you know,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: the attic, as you say, the above is a place
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: of illumination as much as the below, isn't it? So
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: he traverses both those worlds. But yeah, my experience is
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: deeply embarrassing, actually.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: Oh, by all means, tell us.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: I was looking at what's called Jung's Room, which is
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: upstairs of the first tower. And I can still see
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: to this day in my mind a mandala, which is
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: in the Red Book and it's called the Golden Fortress.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: It's essentially a fort, you know, a star fort really. Anyway,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: so I wrote about that and I was probably a
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: bit pleased for myself that I'd spotted this and the
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: rest of it. And then I got to know this
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: lovely guy in America, Jim Givens, who's really drawn a
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: huge amount of the tower. And in doing that, he
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: had found a picture of that room that showed a
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: very different painting. And so, I suppose you could explain
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: it away by carelessness, but I suppose it's true that
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: I really wanted to see it and I saw it.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: And of course, that means that there's a bit of
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: the book that's basically wrong but hey that little trickster
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: has sort of come.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: In but it reminds me very much of jung's trip
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: to ravenna in italy yeah where he saw and i
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: i think he was with tony both of them saw
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: in the basement of a basilica if i've got this
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: right it's.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: In the baptistry they were The Neonian baptistry, yeah.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: No, they both saw four walls of mosaics having to
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: do with water. And biblical scenes, or at least some
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: of them were biblical scenes. And they were smitten by
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: these incredible mosaics. And it was a very special experience.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: And when Jung got back to Switzerland, he remembered them.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: They had impressed him so much that he wrote to
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: the mayor or governing official of the town and said,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: you know, if there are pictures of them, please send
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: me the pictures.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 5: We remember them. They're very special.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: And the response was, there are no mosaics like that
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: anywhere in Ravenna. and certainly not in this building.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a wonderful story. And I think he says
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: something like, I was convinced that something that is inside
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: can be outside, and something that is outside can be inside,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: you know, that traffic. I spent, at the university's expense, actually,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: a few days in Ravenna to try and get to
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: the bottom of this. And Lower down in the baptistry,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: there's a series of niches, four niches, that have partial
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Latin inscriptions. And some of those kind of align with
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: the subject matter of the visions. Not trying to say
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: the visions were devalued in any way, but I think
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: what's enchanting is that that atmosphere and those prompts... produced
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: these images for them. Now, some critics say that Jung
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: was getting confused and he admits, I think, to Hull,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: the curator of the collected works, that he was confused.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: But I prefer to believe that they saw, you know,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: something manifested.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I like that way of saying it so simply
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: and yet profoundly. What is on the inside can be outside.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: And I prefer to believe that you saw that painting
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: in that room in Bollingen.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: Well, that would mean that would be helpful because I
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have to revise the book. But why I was
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: so convinced is I remember looking at the pinholes where
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: it had been transferred from the book to the wall.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: So I wasn't just, you know, whipping by it. So
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: it's how wonderful that place can well appear seems too
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: reductive but emerge i suppose you.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 5: Know i'm.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: Thinking you know my my way of sort of summing
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: up our conversation if if such a topic can ever
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: be summed up which it can't but is how profound
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: the rendering of psyche in art, in carving, in stone
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: can be. That it really does become infused with, what
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: do we call it, a different reality. That these buildings
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: are very magical and what Christiana Morgan and Jung invested
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 4: in their towers. is a spirit that moves us even
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 4: to the point of being able to see something that
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: in ordinary reality isn't there. But they are images of
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: spirit and soul and depth and dualities, and they affect us.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: Beautifully put. You know, that kind of resonance, isn't it?
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: which can be difficult as well as beatific, can't it?
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: We are affected by a place in a modern world
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: where we're disaffected by a place.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 5: It goes to the theme of the alchemists who are
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 5: trying to find spirit in matter and architects who create
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 5: something out of matter that then becomes a home, a
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 5: dwelling place for spirit. And these special occurrences, these places
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: that can affect us, they're like, they have connections to
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 5: other realities that we don't always experience. Yeah, and as
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 5: you say, sort of this beautiful journey of one's journey
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 5: into one's psyche. And as Martin, I thought you so
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 5: beautifully talked about using the word totem. a totem of individuation,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: that it was the embodiment of this, which I thought
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 5: was so beautifully placed.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, and as you were both talking, I
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: was thinking of the word scintillae, you know, these kind
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: of sparks, you get these kind of flashes that I just,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: you know, a cynic can explain away, but I prefer
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: to at least inhabit something that's enchanted you know not
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: in a kind of floppy sense but just is animated enchanted.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 5: Oh well thank you both for coming on and sharing
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 5: thank you your work and experiences and history with all
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 5: of us out there.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you thank you it's a beautiful ideas that settle,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: don't they, and emerge. But thank you very much for
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: the invite.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 4: And I think we can all find places that are
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 4: so special to us where we can be so deeply
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 4: and creatively ourselves. So let us wish that for all
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 4: of you out there and certainly for you, Hilary, and you, Martin.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 5: Well, thank you for having us.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was really beautiful. Thank you.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. To submit a dream, suggest an episode topic,
• 1:09:02
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• 1:09:07
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