Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 463: The Rodriguez List: How to Make Movies with What You Already Have with Aaron Kaufman & Brian Levin

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BPS 463: The Rodriguez List: How to Make Movies with What You Already Have with Aaron Kaufman & Brian Levin · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four sixty three.
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Speaker 2: Your dream doesn't have an expiration date, Take a deep
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Speaker 1: Room in Hollywood when we really should be working on
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Speaker 1: that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you
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Speaker 1: the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how
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Speaker 1: to make your screenplay bulletproof.
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Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
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Speaker 2: episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
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Speaker 3: I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now.
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1:34
Speaker 2: Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
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Speaker 3: On this episode, I have two producers who are absolute
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Speaker 3: rock stars at coming up with all this stuff, and
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Speaker 3: we're going to talk to them today. My first guest
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Speaker 3: is Aaron Kaufman, a producer, writer and director best known
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Speaker 3: for producing Machete Kills and Sin City two with Robert Rodriguez,
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Speaker 3: and he also wrote and directed the film Erge starring
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Speaker 3: Piis Bras. And my other guest, Brian Levine, is a
2:02
Speaker 3: producer and writer best known for Playing with Guns and
2:05
Speaker 3: Boys in Blue. They've just produced the new movie Flock
2:08
Speaker 3: of Dudes, which is out with guests Aaron Kaufman and
2:12
Speaker 3: Brian Levine. Hey Eron, Hey Brian, thanks off coming on
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Speaker 3: the show.
2:17
Speaker 5: Hey, how you doing.
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Speaker 3: Good? Thank you? Brian? Aaron, Aaron, how are you sir?
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Speaker 4: Oh doing well, doing well? Thanks for having us.
2:27
Speaker 3: Oh well, you know, my my pleasure guys. So you know, Brian,
2:30
Speaker 3: I just wanted to you know, I guess I'll start
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Speaker 3: with you. I wanted to ask, and it's a question
2:34
Speaker 3: I ask everybody, and that question is, you know, how
2:37
Speaker 3: did you get started in the film industry?
2:42
Speaker 5: Started in the film industry? I started an online in
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Speaker 5: an online show in the fall of two thousand and
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Speaker 5: five called The Post Show with two of the guys
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Speaker 5: that I made the movie with, Bob Kester and Jason Zumwaw.
2:58
Speaker 5: And yeah, we started just by putting videos online twice
3:03
Speaker 5: a week, and that kind of got us into the industry.
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Speaker 3: So basically, are we discovered by that method or did
3:11
Speaker 3: you sort of just parlay that into something else, meaning
3:14
Speaker 3: meaning that you did you mean what I'm am I
3:16
Speaker 3: asking is, did were you discovered by somebody? Or did
3:18
Speaker 3: you self fund your next project? Where I was what
3:21
Speaker 3: I was trying to ask.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, we were through those videos. We were picked up
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Speaker 6: for a company called Super Deluxe, which was an online
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Speaker 6: network that was part of Adult Swim and so they
3:35
Speaker 6: had like when they were starting off, they had talent
3:38
Speaker 6: scout kind of come in the net for people like us,
3:43
Speaker 6: and that's how we were discovered.
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Speaker 3: You know, very cool. You know, I was actually talking
3:48
Speaker 3: to the co founder of The Onion, Scott Dickers, and
3:51
Speaker 3: that's how he was actually discovered. They you know, they
3:53
Speaker 3: were just doing the Onion as sort of like something
3:55
Speaker 3: to do, and it's sort of, you know, morphed into
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Speaker 3: something else and then you know, agents managers were calling
4:01
Speaker 3: him and saying, hey, you know, what else do you
4:03
Speaker 3: have And they'd be basically saying, you know, because you
4:05
Speaker 3: guys are actually out there doing stuff and it was
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Speaker 3: a great way to you know, to uh to find
4:09
Speaker 3: out who's doing stuff and you know, and if they're
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Speaker 3: able to get a network and able to get an audience,
4:16
Speaker 3: imagine what they could do if they had a little
4:17
Speaker 3: money behind them.
4:19
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.
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Speaker 3: So you know, just to go to you now, Aaron,
4:24
Speaker 3: you know, how did you get started in the film industry.
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Speaker 5: Well, I'm a.
4:27
Speaker 4: Little older, so there was no uh, there was no
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Speaker 4: YouTube at the time. But my first job in entertainment
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Speaker 4: was working at working for Chris Blackwell who had started
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Speaker 4: Island Records and Island Films, and I was sort of
4:42
Speaker 4: transitioning out of the dot com world, which I'd worked
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Speaker 4: in in my my early twenties, but always had wanted
4:49
Speaker 4: to work in entertainment and got a chance to work
4:52
Speaker 4: with him as he was starting Palm Pictures, and it
4:55
Speaker 4: was kind of interesting time and an interesting uh situation
4:59
Speaker 4: because he was such a great guy and had this
5:02
Speaker 4: great experience having discovered Bob Marley and you two and
5:06
Speaker 4: on the film side, you know, having put out you know,
5:09
Speaker 4: films by Spike Lee and Petronmdovar, and he just was
5:12
Speaker 4: this you know mandarin of of all that was good
5:16
Speaker 4: as far as I was concerned. And so I got
5:18
Speaker 4: I got a chance to really get my feet wet
5:21
Speaker 4: and taught to a lot of different different parts of
5:24
Speaker 4: the business.
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Speaker 3: And that's very cool.
5:27
Speaker 4: Uh.
5:27
Speaker 3: You know, you know, as we talk about YouTube, you know,
5:30
Speaker 3: I just wanted to mention, you know that that's something
5:32
Speaker 3: that you know, I've had other producers on the show
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Speaker 3: and we we've also talked about that about you know,
5:36
Speaker 3: making your own YouTube show as sort of like a
5:39
Speaker 3: launch pad for yourself, and you know what I mean,
5:41
Speaker 3: And it's sort of about you know, the question that
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Speaker 3: comes as a lot of people have asked me through
5:46
Speaker 3: email and tweets and all that is basically, well, how
5:49
Speaker 3: do you get the money to start your own YouTube show?
5:51
Speaker 3: So it's sort of like this cyclical question that you know,
5:54
Speaker 3: it's always like you know, the chicken or the egg,
5:56
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, it's always your word.
5:58
Speaker 4: And there's not always an they're The part of it
6:01
Speaker 4: is if if you want to become a doctor, that
6:03
Speaker 4: takes a lot of work, but there's a path that
6:05
Speaker 4: you go through. You know, you do this, you take
6:07
Speaker 4: that test, to go to this school, you take these
6:08
Speaker 4: you know there there's a path here that really is
6:11
Speaker 4: not And I think that's what's really frustrating to a
6:13
Speaker 4: lot of people is you can't just tell them, oh,
6:16
Speaker 4: this is this is how this happened. I think if
6:18
Speaker 4: you asked Brian, you know, did he expect to become
6:20
Speaker 4: a writer by you know, dussing up his Bob Dylan
6:23
Speaker 4: and having a video go viral, he probably would not have.
6:27
Speaker 4: Probably was not you know, part of his his plan.
6:30
Speaker 4: So so that's one thing is that you have to
6:32
Speaker 4: understand it's really not about having a solid plan, but
6:36
Speaker 4: it is about creating things, you know, So if you
6:38
Speaker 4: have an opportunity to create, create and that's that's the
6:42
Speaker 4: strongest thing. I mean, even as a producer, you know,
6:45
Speaker 4: as things are pitched to you or things come over,
6:48
Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be you know, I've seen you know,
6:51
Speaker 4: really rudimentary, uh stuff that you could just tell their
6:55
Speaker 4: talent behind, and that's that's really enough. I remember before
6:59
Speaker 4: the first Paranormal Activity came out, you know, there were
7:02
Speaker 4: agents showing that movie around to show off the directors,
7:06
Speaker 4: and you know, it was even more rudimentary than the
7:09
Speaker 4: version that came out, but you could tell that there
7:11
Speaker 4: was that there was significant talent there. And that's that's
7:15
Speaker 4: sort of how I would I would say we would
7:17
Speaker 4: worry a little less about having money to polish everything
7:20
Speaker 4: off and worry more about just making something that's in need.
7:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very good advice, Aaron. You know, just as
7:28
Speaker 3: a quick side note, you know, for for my listeners
7:30
Speaker 3: who who've listened to some of the past episodes. I
7:33
Speaker 3: actually shot my own TV pilot and I was going
7:35
Speaker 3: to actually put it up on YouTube, and then I
7:38
Speaker 3: was talked out of it by an agent and he said,
7:40
Speaker 3: don't ever put it. He said, go don't put it
7:41
Speaker 3: on YouTube. He goes, let's just you know, shot this
7:44
Speaker 3: thing around and I didn't sign with that agent, by
7:47
Speaker 3: the way, but not there he really but you know,
7:50
Speaker 3: he was giving me advice at the time, and we
7:54
Speaker 3: ended up. I now, I'm still toying with the idea
7:56
Speaker 3: of putting it up on YouTube, just because you know,
7:59
Speaker 3: I basically it cost me a hell of a lot
8:01
Speaker 3: more money than I thought it would. But but you
8:03
Speaker 3: could tell that there was a lot of time and
8:05
Speaker 3: effort put into the production, the set design, everything, uh,
8:09
Speaker 3: you know, and I hate for it to just sit
8:10
Speaker 3: on a hard drive, you know what I mean.
8:11
Speaker 4: Of course, I would say it's something you're proud of.
8:14
Speaker 4: Definitely put it out you know, there's there's something to
8:16
Speaker 4: what he was saying as far as being selective. And
8:19
Speaker 4: once you put something out there, then it's out there.
8:21
Speaker 4: So every time someone says, you know, hey, we should
8:23
Speaker 4: hire this guy, know that that is going to get
8:27
Speaker 4: looked at as long as you're refined with that and
8:29
Speaker 4: you you like it enough to to be proud of
8:31
Speaker 4: it to put it up there, to absolutely do that.
8:33
Speaker 4: But but do know that you should be somewhat selective
8:36
Speaker 4: because whatever whatever's out there is out there you know forever.
8:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, very true. Uh, you know, and as we talked
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Speaker 3: about creating, I want to actually mention, you know, Aaron,
8:48
Speaker 3: you have a movie out Urge, Yes, and you know
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Speaker 3: you you actually, you know, wrote and directed and I
8:54
Speaker 3: think you also produced Urged, and I wanted to ask,
8:57
Speaker 3: you know, what was the impetus for you to start,
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Speaker 3: you know, start writing and directing your own script.
9:02
Speaker 4: Well, the Urge actually I wrote with Jason Zumwalt, who
9:06
Speaker 4: also wrote on with with Brian That's sorry. I met
9:08
Speaker 4: Jason with Brian on Flock of Dudes. They were he
9:12
Speaker 4: was part of the post show. And then I ended
9:15
Speaker 4: up doing early early drafts with with Jason, which really
9:18
Speaker 4: helped it to come together. But then ultimately wrote the
9:21
Speaker 4: last thing is two drafts with Jerry Stall. We'd written
9:25
Speaker 4: Permit at Midnight, so there were id a lot of
9:27
Speaker 4: collaborators on the script. But I had always wanted to direct,
9:31
Speaker 4: and one of my reasons for taking the job with
9:33
Speaker 4: Robert Rodriguez in Austin in the first place was to
9:37
Speaker 4: learn production at that level. You know, I had been
9:39
Speaker 4: producing for quite a while, but there was no comparison
9:43
Speaker 4: to the experience I got working down a Troublemaker, where
9:46
Speaker 4: you know, we were making a movie every nine months,
9:49
Speaker 4: you know, and from the and the just in the
9:51
Speaker 4: time I was there, you know, we we had done
9:53
Speaker 4: two Machete films, the sequels to Sin City.
9:57
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, sir,
10:03
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
10:07
Speaker 4: Spike, It's for and the UH and and Robert had
10:10
Speaker 4: produced the UH the Predators remake with with Edian Brody,
10:16
Speaker 4: So you know, it was NonStop production and that that
10:19
Speaker 4: helped me to really build up those chops. But once
10:22
Speaker 4: we had finished Since City, which was a really large undertaking,
10:26
Speaker 4: it was really more a matter of trying to figure
10:29
Speaker 4: out what I wanted to UH to direct and and
10:32
Speaker 4: putting it together after that.
10:35
Speaker 3: So I wanted to ask you mentioned working with Robert Rodriguez, Aaron.
10:39
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask, you know, what are some of
10:40
Speaker 3: the things that you learned from him in terms of
10:43
Speaker 3: either writing, production, directing. I mean, because I'm gonna admit,
10:46
Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna geek out here, Aaron. He's a
10:48
Speaker 3: huge idol of mine, and I mean, I am just
10:51
Speaker 3: you know, I would love the opportunity to talk to him,
10:53
Speaker 3: and I'm always interested in everyone that could that has
10:55
Speaker 3: worked with him. You know, I've had his cousin on
10:57
Speaker 3: ALV Rodrigue Go Rote Machete and you know we were talking.
11:02
Speaker 3: I mean, I could you know, we were just geeking
11:04
Speaker 3: out about movies and everything else. But I want to
11:05
Speaker 3: but you know that that's what was wanted to ask you, Aaron,
11:08
Speaker 3: is you know, what are some of the things that
11:09
Speaker 3: you learned from from working with Robert Riguez?
11:11
Speaker 4: Well as a lot, I mean, it's probably its own,
11:13
Speaker 4: its own dedicated show because I think people don't realize
11:17
Speaker 4: he has ah. He has sort of a whole theory
11:23
Speaker 4: of production which is somewhat different than how everybody does things.
11:27
Speaker 4: So it's like a you know, it's almost like a
11:29
Speaker 4: master's class that you get from from him. But some
11:31
Speaker 4: of the core tenets are the fact that, you know,
11:34
Speaker 4: first and foremost, if he likes to work, he likes
11:37
Speaker 4: to produce, and he produces a lot, and that in
11:39
Speaker 4: itself creates a different environment. And I would say that
11:42
Speaker 4: there's an analogue to people that are looking to put
11:45
Speaker 4: stuff on YouTube, is you know the way that you
11:48
Speaker 4: get great is by producing quite a lot. You know,
11:51
Speaker 4: you're shooting all the time, You're getting acclimated to you know,
11:54
Speaker 4: to what you could do, what's possible, and that that
11:58
Speaker 4: really helps the confidence you get from knowing looking at
12:01
Speaker 4: a problem and knowing, oh, i know out of out
12:03
Speaker 4: a hand list, that's that's really important. And he he
12:06
Speaker 4: did that. I mean, he was making shorts he you know,
12:09
Speaker 4: before he made Mariacci. He kind of approached Mariacci in
12:13
Speaker 4: a pretty methodical way in the sense of, you know,
12:16
Speaker 4: he was getting ready for it like a marathon owner.
12:18
Speaker 4: So that's you know, the just producing and producing a lot,
12:22
Speaker 4: I think is one two. He also didn't really buy
12:25
Speaker 4: into the whole the mechanism of all, you know, if
12:29
Speaker 4: if there were there was a better idea, if there
12:32
Speaker 4: was a way to do something more simply, he was
12:34
Speaker 4: all for that, you know. And he also if you
12:37
Speaker 4: look at him and Robert, Robert and Quentin, who are
12:41
Speaker 4: very good friends and came up together, they both have
12:43
Speaker 4: this sort of method, this sort of uh thing that
12:48
Speaker 4: they live by, which is, you know, they really are
12:50
Speaker 4: focused on what's what's going to be amazing, what's going
12:52
Speaker 4: to be memorable by by an audience, and they really
12:55
Speaker 4: try to minimize everything that isn't So, you know, anything
12:58
Speaker 4: that's that's not you know, going to be memorable or
13:01
Speaker 4: going to be enjoyed by by an audience. They really
13:04
Speaker 4: try to cut a lot of that stuff out of
13:05
Speaker 4: their movies, and that's why they're pretty leaning mean usually.
13:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I'm always fascinated about how quickly, you know,
13:12
Speaker 3: Robert can get a movie together, and you know, because
13:15
Speaker 3: I mean, I know he you know, he wants to
13:16
Speaker 3: make his you know, produce his own stuff. And you know,
13:19
Speaker 3: there's something Robert once said about you have twenty bad
13:22
Speaker 3: movies in you and basically get them out of you
13:24
Speaker 3: as quickly as you can. And that's why he made
13:26
Speaker 3: all those short films, you know, early on in his
13:29
Speaker 3: in his life where it was just you know, he
13:31
Speaker 3: casted his friends and family and you know, just made
13:34
Speaker 3: videos like that and you know, just posted them. I think,
13:37
Speaker 3: you know he I think me and a couple of
13:39
Speaker 3: his DVDs. I think he posted a few of the
13:41
Speaker 3: shorts on the DVD extras. But you know, I wanted
13:44
Speaker 3: to ask you, Brian, when when you were you know,
13:47
Speaker 3: you know, coming up, did you start you know, you know,
13:49
Speaker 3: did you do things like that? You know me, either
13:51
Speaker 3: in high school or in college, did you actually make
13:53
Speaker 3: your own movies and and just sort of you know,
13:55
Speaker 3: like make a ton of like really short movies or
13:57
Speaker 3: and and just try to get you know, a ton
13:59
Speaker 3: of mistakes out of the way. Yeah, I made.
14:03
Speaker 5: I did some short films and wrote some short films
14:07
Speaker 5: in uh, in high school, in college. But I went
14:12
Speaker 5: to graduate school for a couple of years, uh for screenwriting.
14:18
Speaker 5: And I think that kind of where I really just
14:20
Speaker 5: had like a high volume of output and really learned
14:24
Speaker 5: the craft that way.
14:27
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And and just like Aaron said, I think
14:29
Speaker 3: the best way to uh to actually learn is by doing.
14:33
Speaker 3: And you know that that's you know what even other
14:35
Speaker 3: filmmakers have had on this podcast, have you and said,
14:37
Speaker 3: you know, that's what they did. They literally just went
14:39
Speaker 3: took a camera out in their backyard, uh, you know,
14:42
Speaker 3: and just started making stuff. And you know, one guy
14:44
Speaker 3: told himself to edit by just taking a camera out
14:47
Speaker 3: to his local park and basically just talked just you know, okay,
14:51
Speaker 3: I'm gonna get I'm gonna get some video, some footage
14:53
Speaker 3: of the ship coming in. I'm gonna get some footage
14:55
Speaker 3: of these birds. I'm gonna get footage of this. He
14:57
Speaker 3: he wasn't focused on telling the story as much as
15:00
Speaker 3: he was just getting used to what's you know, operating
15:03
Speaker 3: a camera, getting used to getting the right footage, you
15:06
Speaker 3: know what I mean, like getting used to editing all
15:08
Speaker 3: that stuff.
15:08
Speaker 4: It's also I think writing is the is the Writing
15:11
Speaker 4: is probably the biggest example of that, right because it's
15:14
Speaker 4: so terrifying to write, and the real antidote, you know,
15:18
Speaker 4: to to writing or to be able to write is
15:21
Speaker 4: more right, you know, So the the you have to
15:23
Speaker 4: start getting comfortable with, you know, chopping the task down
15:27
Speaker 4: into smaller bites and saying, Okay, you know what, I'm
15:29
Speaker 4: gonna write this character, I'm gonna write this line. I'm
15:32
Speaker 4: going to write something that you can do and complete
15:34
Speaker 4: and feel good about to move on because it is daunting.
15:38
Speaker 4: But the truth is the only way you get better
15:41
Speaker 4: is by by doing.
15:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, very true. And you know I want to talk
15:46
Speaker 3: to you know, so you know, Aaron, as you're actually
15:48
Speaker 3: making Urge, you know what, what are some of the
15:50
Speaker 3: things that you took away? I mean, you know, Urge
15:53
Speaker 3: looks amazing. It starts Pierce Brosnan. You know, I I've
15:57
Speaker 3: you know, heard amazing things about working with Pierce, and
15:59
Speaker 3: I want to ask you know what are some of
16:01
Speaker 3: the things that you learned while making Urge.
16:03
Speaker 4: I mean, Tons Pierce is great. I had worked with
16:06
Speaker 4: him once before on a movie called The Greatest and
16:10
Speaker 4: had met him then and was just very surprised with
16:13
Speaker 4: you know, he's double a seven, so you have one
16:16
Speaker 4: expectation meeting him, but he actually is just a super
16:19
Speaker 4: decent and really genuine guy. And at that movie that
16:24
Speaker 4: I had produced, was there was a first time director
16:27
Speaker 4: on that movie, and he was very kind and and
16:30
Speaker 4: sort of very open to working with her, which is
16:32
Speaker 4: not something that you know, every actor feels comfortable with.
16:35
Speaker 4: You know, sometimes that's a little scary for an actor
16:37
Speaker 4: to work with somebody who's who's a first time filmmaker.
16:41
Speaker 4: I had produced, you know, films for fifteen years, but
16:44
Speaker 4: still stepping behind the camera as a director for the
16:47
Speaker 4: first time, you're still a first time director, no matter,
16:49
Speaker 4: no matter what. So I think the part of part
16:52
Speaker 4: of approaching appears in the first first point was the
16:55
Speaker 4: fact that I knew what kind of guy he was
16:57
Speaker 4: and that you know, he would come and give give
16:59
Speaker 4: his all all, not you know, undaunted by the fact
17:02
Speaker 4: that this was my first as a as a director.
17:05
Speaker 4: And then I learned with him that you know, basically,
17:09
Speaker 4: get someone as good as peers to read your dialogue
17:11
Speaker 4: because it makes you sound like a much better writer
17:14
Speaker 4: if you if you do that, because he, you know,
17:17
Speaker 4: it just comes on stage and you're expecting one thing
17:20
Speaker 4: and he just did something so much better every single take,
17:22
Speaker 4: and so that was that was great. But you have
17:25
Speaker 4: to really, you know, learn to communicate. I think that's
17:28
Speaker 4: for directing. That's that is the biggest and it may
17:30
Speaker 4: sound cliche, but it really is true. You know, what
17:33
Speaker 4: ends up happening in on a film set is directors
17:37
Speaker 4: get so And I've seen this as a producer with
17:40
Speaker 4: first time filmmakers, where filmmakers get so overwhelmed because they're
17:43
Speaker 4: being asked a million questions and a lot of those
17:47
Speaker 4: questions they actually don't know the answers to, and they
17:50
Speaker 4: feel like they should and that they start to break
17:53
Speaker 4: down and they start to just get nervous. And now
17:55
Speaker 4: a lot of times they'll close down and instead of
17:57
Speaker 4: giving more information, which is what they really need to do,
18:00
Speaker 4: they give less. And that's the really the biggest and
18:04
Speaker 4: the most fundamental lesson that I learned, and I would
18:07
Speaker 4: certainly talk with other other filmmakers as I produced them
18:11
Speaker 4: to let them know, you know, is that all these
18:13
Speaker 4: people want is to do the best job they can do,
18:16
Speaker 4: So you have to give them the tools to do it.
18:18
Speaker 4: So if they're asking you, you know, this scene calls
18:21
Speaker 4: for a gun, what kind of gun do you want?
18:22
Speaker 4: And you actually don't know because you haven't thought about it,
18:25
Speaker 4: that's okay. You can tell them I don't know, let
18:28
Speaker 4: me think about it, and that'll be better than you know,
18:31
Speaker 4: trying to just freeze up or or not communicate.
18:36
Speaker 3: You know, that's a very good point, Aaron. You know
18:38
Speaker 3: one you know, one guy I've always heard who knows
18:41
Speaker 3: pretty much every answer that is asked to him is Tarantino.
18:44
Speaker 3: You know, some people I know that have worked with
18:46
Speaker 3: him have said that he already pretty much has anticipated
18:49
Speaker 3: all these questions, or his vision is either so deep
18:52
Speaker 3: that he already knows exactly what he wants, how it
18:55
Speaker 3: needs to look, all that stuff. And I think that
18:58
Speaker 3: really comes through in his movies.
19:00
Speaker 4: I known Quentin. I've never actually been on set with him,
19:02
Speaker 4: but I know him. I would I would definitely believe
19:06
Speaker 4: that he knows everything, just just because he takes so
19:09
Speaker 4: much time and so much care and he really almost
19:12
Speaker 4: writes his movies like novels that by the time he
19:15
Speaker 4: gets on set, I would imagine that he just really
19:18
Speaker 4: really knows. But but even even then, you know there
19:21
Speaker 4: and then when you and as you do this more
19:24
Speaker 4: and more you realize as you're writing that you're thinking
19:27
Speaker 4: about production in a way once you've directed, the changes
19:30
Speaker 4: you're writing because now you're writing, you're thinking of, like,
19:33
Speaker 4: on the day, Okay, you know, I'm putting a gun
19:36
Speaker 4: in this guy's hand, what kind of gun is it
19:38
Speaker 4: going to be? Because you know you're going to ask
19:40
Speaker 4: and asked that question. You know, if it's if you're
19:41
Speaker 4: describing drapes, the idea of what color are those or
19:44
Speaker 4: what texture are those or those things. When you're first
19:47
Speaker 4: writing and you haven't directed before, a lot of times
19:49
Speaker 4: it's just well, there's drapes, or there's this, or there's
19:52
Speaker 4: a gun, and you know you're you're moving on to
19:54
Speaker 4: the next thing without forcing yourself to really seek through.
19:58
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
20:04
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
20:07
Speaker 4: I think that whether it's Quentin or some of the
20:10
Speaker 4: other you know, some other great directors that really like
20:12
Speaker 4: Paul Thomas Anderson or anybody who created like a whole world.
20:16
Speaker 4: I think it's because they've thought through all that, all
20:18
Speaker 4: that detail, and they've they've made that feel real, which
20:21
Speaker 4: which helps them moving.
20:23
Speaker 3: Yeah. I really felt that during Wes Anderson's Grand Budapest Hotel,
20:28
Speaker 3: because I even went out afterwards and I bought the
20:30
Speaker 3: book about the artwork of the film, and I mean
20:33
Speaker 3: you could just tell the layer of planning and creativity
20:37
Speaker 3: in that film. I mean, because every shot looks literally
20:39
Speaker 3: looks like a painting.
20:40
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, everyone's composed and he I mean, Wes is
20:42
Speaker 4: obviously known for for that level of almost like fetishistic detail.
20:47
Speaker 4: He also works with some of the best people in
20:49
Speaker 4: the world and he cares. What I like about Wes, though,
20:52
Speaker 4: is that there are people that can get as really
20:56
Speaker 4: overcome with the detail and forget to tell a story,
21:00
Speaker 4: you know, or forget to really build characters, and he
21:03
Speaker 4: seems to be one of the few people that can
21:04
Speaker 4: kind of do all of those things. You know, these
21:06
Speaker 4: films are so well composed, well, so well designed, and
21:09
Speaker 4: yet they always seem to have a heart to them
21:12
Speaker 4: that that's a really hard balance to make. Kind of
21:14
Speaker 4: think he does that very well.
21:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, I completely concur And you know, you know, as
21:20
Speaker 3: we talk about you know, making and you know, writing films,
21:23
Speaker 3: and I wanted to you know, talk about, you know,
21:25
Speaker 3: you're the film that both of you produced, Flock of Dudes. Now, Brian,
21:29
Speaker 3: you also co wrote the movie, if if I'm correct,
21:32
Speaker 3: and you both produced the film. So Brian, I wanted
21:35
Speaker 3: to ask, you know, when when, you know, what was
21:37
Speaker 3: the impetus for writing you know, flock of Dudes? Did
21:39
Speaker 3: you know, did was there any sort of you know
21:41
Speaker 3: event did you always have this idea?
21:44
Speaker 4: Uh?
21:44
Speaker 3: You know, I I you know, so, what was the
21:47
Speaker 3: you know, impatis of creating Flock of Dudes?
21:49
Speaker 5: Yeah? That story just kind of came out organically from
21:52
Speaker 5: hanging out in New York with Bob and Jason and
21:58
Speaker 5: we were, I guess, you know, in our twenties, mid
22:01
Speaker 5: mid to late twenties, and everybody was hanging out and
22:05
Speaker 5: whenever we would go out, all the other kind of friends
22:09
Speaker 5: of ours would join us, and eventually there would be
22:12
Speaker 5: a dozen, you know guys going from bar to bar
22:15
Speaker 5: in New York, and we started joking around that we
22:19
Speaker 5: have to just break up with all these guys that
22:21
Speaker 5: we can get rid of them, so we're not traveling
22:23
Speaker 5: around in a flock of dudes, and that kind of
22:26
Speaker 5: that joke kind of became the movie.
22:29
Speaker 3: So when you actually sat down, Brian to write the film,
22:33
Speaker 3: was there? You know, do do you subscribe to sort
22:35
Speaker 3: of any method to writing? Meaning do you subscribe to
22:38
Speaker 3: Save the Cat? Do you sort of or are you
22:40
Speaker 3: more of like a you know, a mini movie method guy,
22:43
Speaker 3: or do you just you know, sort of just write.
22:49
Speaker 5: Well, To be honest, it depends on what kind of
22:52
Speaker 5: movie I'm writing though. You know, some things are more
22:55
Speaker 5: structured in a conventional preact way, and some of them
23:00
Speaker 5: are more kind of a of a looser, less structured.
23:05
Speaker 5: For me, it just depends on the movie really.
23:08
Speaker 3: So with Flock of Dudes, when you when you sat
23:10
Speaker 3: down to write, you know, since it was based you know,
23:13
Speaker 3: pretty much on your own experiences, you know, you did
23:16
Speaker 3: it sort of just flow out of you? Did you
23:18
Speaker 3: already know like, hey, look, I know I want this
23:20
Speaker 3: to happen. I know by the end of the movie,
23:22
Speaker 3: I want this to happen. Was was it something like that?
23:25
Speaker 5: I think we had a couple kind of big kind
23:27
Speaker 5: of plot points, like the guys breaking up with each
23:30
Speaker 5: other and things of that nature. Really, I mean, I
23:35
Speaker 5: think at least with the group of people writing together,
23:37
Speaker 5: with three of us writing, it was just about sitting
23:40
Speaker 5: sitting down and figuring out, hey, you know, what are
23:43
Speaker 5: some interesting and funny things and characters, and then ultimately
23:48
Speaker 5: how can we kind of stringed us together into into
23:52
Speaker 5: a story that makes sense and has, you know, a
23:55
Speaker 5: solid enough structure that it kind of fits into the
23:59
Speaker 5: realm of a commercial movie.
24:03
Speaker 3: Right, you know, because I've had the writers of Broken
24:06
Speaker 3: Lizard on and that's something they were talking about as well,
24:09
Speaker 3: was that, you know, they would get together, you know,
24:11
Speaker 3: brainstorm an idea, and they wanted to make sure that
24:14
Speaker 3: it was there was actually a story there, you know
24:15
Speaker 3: what I mean, And they wanted to make sure that,
24:18
Speaker 3: you know, they would put that that the story and
24:20
Speaker 3: the structure would be like the bones and then like
24:22
Speaker 3: all the jokes and everything would sort of be like
24:24
Speaker 3: the muscle and the skin, so to speak.
24:28
Speaker 5: Yeah m hm.
24:30
Speaker 3: So, so you know, Brian, I wanted to ask, you know,
24:32
Speaker 3: how many drafts did you go through flock of dudes
24:35
Speaker 3: before you finally said, you know what this is, this
24:36
Speaker 3: is the draft that is ready to shoot.
24:40
Speaker 5: Between the very beginning, Well, a Lot of Duds is
24:43
Speaker 5: a long process. It had been optioned by a studio
24:47
Speaker 5: and came back to it, and we had multiple drafts
24:50
Speaker 5: at every step of the way.
24:51
Speaker 3: But I would say probably overall.
24:53
Speaker 5: We probably did thirty drafts of them.
24:56
Speaker 4: Well minds actually, because they had been through sort of
25:01
Speaker 4: a studio development process, and so I came along after that,
25:08
Speaker 4: and I remember sitting with them working on the script,
25:12
Speaker 4: and no matter what you mentioned, they would say, oh, yeah,
25:16
Speaker 4: the like this producer had suggested that before, or the
25:19
Speaker 4: studio wanted that with to the extent where you were like,
25:21
Speaker 4: what if all these you know, characters were chickens instead
25:24
Speaker 4: of people? They would be like, well, actually, you know,
25:26
Speaker 4: the studio had the studio had mentioned that that might
25:29
Speaker 4: be an idea, and so there was no way how
25:31
Speaker 4: many permutations had been thrown at them. But I think
25:34
Speaker 4: it kept coming back to the original story, which was
25:37
Speaker 4: this you know, real relationship between these guys. And what
25:40
Speaker 4: I always liked about it was that it was a
25:44
Speaker 4: fun comedy with lots of big laughs in it, but
25:48
Speaker 4: at the core it still felt real and it still
25:51
Speaker 4: felt like it was rooted in you know, these real relationships,
25:55
Speaker 4: and I think that made it a lot, a lot
25:56
Speaker 4: more interesting for me.
25:58
Speaker 5: And that's one thing that I think Aaron did very well,
26:02
Speaker 5: which we have encountered from time to time, but it's
26:05
Speaker 5: not all that common, which she really recognized the core
26:10
Speaker 5: of the story, which is kind of essentially kind of
26:13
Speaker 5: the emotional journey of the.
26:16
Speaker 7: Lead character, and he helped us really kind of protect
26:19
Speaker 7: that and make sure any you know, encourage us to
26:23
Speaker 7: deliver on that. You know, stories are so in the end,
26:28
Speaker 7: the story is so really fragile that there are a.
26:31
Speaker 5: Lot of ways that it can go sideways if you're
26:35
Speaker 5: not kind of protecting what's important about it.
26:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, that's very true. And you know, this
26:41
Speaker 3: is something I've learned too now from my own experience
26:44
Speaker 3: but also from doing this podcast is whenever a writer
26:47
Speaker 3: director gets a producer, a piece of the singular sort
26:52
Speaker 3: of bonding elements to all good relationships has always been
26:57
Speaker 3: that the producer sees that that core of that script
27:00
Speaker 3: and he and he or she actually really really digs
27:03
Speaker 3: that idea, you know what I mean, they really understand
27:06
Speaker 3: one another and that and that's so when the producer
27:09
Speaker 3: goes out and is talking to you know, investors or
27:12
Speaker 3: or going to distribute distributors that they can you know,
27:16
Speaker 3: use that in the pitch and use that as the
27:18
Speaker 3: selling point. But also you know what I mean, like
27:20
Speaker 3: so that way there, it's not that sort of what
27:22
Speaker 3: we're talking about four before with all the different permeations
27:24
Speaker 3: where it's like, well, what if they were chickens, what
27:25
Speaker 3: if they were that? You know what I mean? Yeah,
27:29
Speaker 3: mm so, uh, you know, I wanted to talk about
27:33
Speaker 3: you know, since we're talking about producing, I wanted to
27:34
Speaker 3: ask you guys, you know, you know producing uh, you
27:37
Speaker 3: know Flock of Dudes. You know, both of you produced this,
27:40
Speaker 3: and I wanted to ask, you know, what were some
27:42
Speaker 3: of the biggest challenges in in producing something like this.
27:46
Speaker 4: I'm sorry I missed the least the question.
27:48
Speaker 3: What was some of the biggest challenges in producing Flock
27:51
Speaker 3: of Dudes?
27:51
Speaker 4: I mean, I think the Flock of Dudes, you're you're
27:54
Speaker 4: trying there's a couple of things. One, you're trying to
27:56
Speaker 4: make a comedy in the independent space, which, you know,
28:00
Speaker 4: the independent space is not necessarily that welcoming of this
28:05
Speaker 4: kind of film. You know, if you look at what
28:07
Speaker 4: really gets made in the indie space, it's it's dedicated
28:10
Speaker 4: toward you know, what we'll show at Sundance, what will
28:12
Speaker 4: show at Toronto. You don't really see sort of rye
28:15
Speaker 4: mold comedies at those at those festivals. And we were really,
28:20
Speaker 4: at the end of the day, trying to make a
28:22
Speaker 4: commercial comedy that would re enjoyed, you know, sort of
28:26
Speaker 4: outside of the the indie space. That was sort of
28:28
Speaker 4: one challenge because you're the people that are there, the
28:32
Speaker 4: systems that's there that to to help you and assist
28:34
Speaker 4: you through the process, there doesn't really exist. You know,
28:37
Speaker 4: this is a kind of movie that would get made
28:39
Speaker 4: by a new line, and we were trying to make
28:41
Speaker 4: it look and feel and uh and and act like
28:44
Speaker 4: one of those movies, which is great, except that you're
28:47
Speaker 4: really on your own because you're there's just not the
28:50
Speaker 4: sort of in the in sport in the indie world
28:53
Speaker 4: for that, uh you know, you don't have big festivals
28:55
Speaker 4: that want those kind of comedies. So that's one two.
29:00
Speaker 4: You you know, we're we're trying to make something that
29:02
Speaker 4: looks like a bigger budget movie on on less uh less,
29:06
Speaker 4: a less of a budget on a smaller budget. One
29:09
Speaker 4: of the things that we had lucked out on is
29:10
Speaker 4: the post show. Guys had some great relationships in the
29:13
Speaker 4: comedy world, and we were able to populate the film
29:17
Speaker 4: with with with guys that we people really liked. And
29:21
Speaker 4: then once that started to move, then other people started
29:24
Speaker 4: to come on board. You know, it's for like Hillary
29:26
Speaker 4: Duff and Jamie Chung and and uh, you know even
29:29
Speaker 4: real Lyoda we're joining at that point because we had
29:32
Speaker 4: Crystalia and Brick Gelman and Kamala and Johnny and all
29:35
Speaker 4: these other people that were really coming up. And this
29:38
Speaker 4: movie has been we made it a little while ago,
29:41
Speaker 4: so I would I would say casting wise, we look
29:43
Speaker 4: like geniuses because now everybody who's in the film has
29:46
Speaker 4: kind of blown up and become huge. But that was
29:51
Speaker 4: the Those are the kind of one two uh issues,
29:54
Speaker 4: And then you know you're dealing with the Bob Castron
29:57
Speaker 4: who directed it, who's the first time as a as
29:59
Speaker 4: a direct.
30:01
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
30:07
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
30:10
Speaker 4: So you're you're dealing with those that are not specific
30:13
Speaker 4: to Bob but specific to anyone who's who's making their
30:16
Speaker 4: their first film.
30:19
Speaker 3: So you know that's actually another producing question I had,
30:22
Speaker 3: was you know, with a cast like that, you know
30:24
Speaker 3: how you know, because they're all doing so many things.
30:26
Speaker 3: Jo Hanna Simone, she's on New Girl, you know, you
30:30
Speaker 3: have Eric Andre, you have Hilary Duff. You know what
30:32
Speaker 3: was what was some of the biggest logistic issues, you know,
30:35
Speaker 3: just getting all the all these actors together. Was there
30:38
Speaker 3: any logistic issues?
30:40
Speaker 4: There was? I mean there was a lot of just
30:42
Speaker 4: the casting of it. You know, we we ended up
30:45
Speaker 4: normally in a film as a producer, I'm casting directly
30:48
Speaker 4: three or four roles you know that are your sort
30:50
Speaker 4: of bigger roles, and then working with the casting director
30:53
Speaker 4: to to come up with ideas for everybody else here.
30:56
Speaker 4: We really kind of cast down almost the entire the
30:59
Speaker 4: entire movie. So other than background, there are no like
31:02
Speaker 4: day players on the movie. Everybody are you know, everybody
31:05
Speaker 4: in the in the film is is somebody great? Uh?
31:08
Speaker 4: Not that not that day players can't be great, but
31:10
Speaker 4: you know these are every every single role is is
31:14
Speaker 4: populated by by somebody who we loved and was really great.
31:18
Speaker 4: So you have you know, Jeff Ross in a in
31:20
Speaker 4: a scene. You have Kellen Coleman, you have Timothy Simon's
31:23
Speaker 4: from Veep in a in a really funny scene. So
31:26
Speaker 4: there's the movie kind of just keeps going and going.
31:29
Speaker 4: And for producing wise, we were really excited every day
31:31
Speaker 4: almost because it was like every year we got to
31:34
Speaker 4: work with somebody new and that we admired Hannibal Baris
31:38
Speaker 4: and you know, just it just went on and on.
31:40
Speaker 4: So it was that that made it pretty pretty fun.
31:44
Speaker 4: But getting you know, doing that was was done as
31:47
Speaker 4: a concerted effort because it was a matter of how
31:50
Speaker 4: do we make this movie stand out? How do we
31:52
Speaker 4: make this movie look special? And and that was what
31:55
Speaker 4: was was one of our big ways of doing it.
31:58
Speaker 3: You know, Aaron, you mentioned that this was Bob Kastron's
32:01
Speaker 3: your directorial debut. You know, when when investors were looking
32:05
Speaker 3: at the movie, did they ever you know, maybe question,
32:08
Speaker 3: you know, should we you know, is Bob gonna be
32:11
Speaker 3: able to handle this? I don't mean it the way
32:13
Speaker 3: it sounds, by the way. I just mean that, you know,
32:15
Speaker 3: is there ever a you know, a sort of an
32:18
Speaker 3: issue that someone would raise. We're saying like, well, hey,
32:20
Speaker 3: you know, you know, is there any is there anybody else?
32:24
Speaker 3: You know what I mean. I'm not I don't mean
32:26
Speaker 3: it the way it sounds.
32:28
Speaker 4: Not at all, really, and in fact, it's exactly what happens,
32:30
Speaker 4: and having nothing to do with Bob specifically, just the
32:33
Speaker 4: moment you say first time filmmaker to an investor, it's
32:37
Speaker 4: it's you know that it's not what you want to hear.
32:39
Speaker 4: No one, no one ever grabs you and says, oh great,
32:42
Speaker 4: that's exactly what I wanted, first time director to latish
32:45
Speaker 4: my my my money on. And look, the same thing
32:48
Speaker 4: went for for me after flogging Dudes, I directed Urge
32:51
Speaker 4: and I thought, you know, having been in film for
32:53
Speaker 4: so long and having worked on you know, big movies
32:56
Speaker 4: like Lake since City, that you know, being a first
32:58
Speaker 4: time director would not be as much of a hindrance.
33:01
Speaker 4: But it still is, you know. And really, what it
33:03
Speaker 4: comes down to, and I understand it a little bit
33:05
Speaker 4: better now, is that before you direct, you really have
33:09
Speaker 4: no idea what kind of director you're going to be.
33:12
Speaker 4: You could hope, you can think, you can prepare, you
33:14
Speaker 4: can learn, you can watch movies, you can take classes,
33:18
Speaker 4: you can learn theory. All of these things are which
33:20
Speaker 4: you should do, which is great, but none of them
33:23
Speaker 4: really prepare you for what it's actually like. And I've
33:25
Speaker 4: seen that. I've seen people that get behind the camera
33:27
Speaker 4: and they just freeze and it's not for them. And
33:30
Speaker 4: I've seen people get behind it who you weren't necessarily
33:32
Speaker 4: think you were going to be great and they thrive.
33:34
Speaker 4: So that because that's a random That's why I think
33:38
Speaker 4: people get really nervous about it is because they just
33:40
Speaker 4: there's nothing, there's nothing to repare. You're essentially trusting a
33:43
Speaker 4: producer who says, yes, this person can do this job.
33:48
Speaker 4: So you have to overcome that, and a lot of
33:50
Speaker 4: ways we overcame. That was the you know who we
33:53
Speaker 4: had on to produce a movie, who we brought on
33:56
Speaker 4: cast wise to really offset ECU.
34:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and uh, I'm glad that you you
34:06
Speaker 3: you uh, because that's what I'm trying to say, Aaron,
34:08
Speaker 3: was that basically, you know, even when you know, in
34:10
Speaker 3: my own experience, when you know, you put something together
34:13
Speaker 3: like a pitch packet and you you know, you go
34:15
Speaker 3: to investors, you know, that's not something they want to
34:17
Speaker 3: hear first time director. You know what I mean, because
34:19
Speaker 3: you know, you know, they they sort of they want
34:21
Speaker 3: to know who and I forget who I was saying
34:23
Speaker 3: this too, but that's sort of what the new thing
34:25
Speaker 3: is where it's like even for you know, for any
34:27
Speaker 3: independent film. Now it's like we want a named director,
34:29
Speaker 3: a named producer, a named writer even you know, and
34:32
Speaker 3: and the cast all has to be sellable so you know,
34:35
Speaker 3: get us people, you know what I mean. And it's
34:36
Speaker 3: sort of putting this whole package deal together where every
34:39
Speaker 3: so it's sort of like you're stacking the deck. So
34:41
Speaker 3: when you go to producers, I'm sorry, when you go
34:43
Speaker 3: to investors that you can say, look, you know, we're
34:45
Speaker 3: pretty much stacking the deck in your favor because everyone
34:48
Speaker 3: here is willing to work for a little less maybe
34:51
Speaker 3: or you know, is willing to work on this, on
34:53
Speaker 3: this passion project, you're.
34:54
Speaker 4: Ondredson right, and I for me, it makes it a
34:57
Speaker 4: lot less fun than it used to be. I mean,
34:59
Speaker 4: you always had the put a package together, but now
35:02
Speaker 4: in order to get something off the ground, you have
35:04
Speaker 4: to you know, it used to be all, okay, we
35:05
Speaker 4: have one major star who wants to make this movie
35:08
Speaker 4: and it's a smaller movie. Let's go. Now it's like, okay,
35:11
Speaker 4: well the first and second lead and third and maybe
35:14
Speaker 4: fourth Aaron, we need a name director. And then all
35:17
Speaker 4: of a sudden, in my mind, you're taking a lot
35:19
Speaker 4: of what's special about indie film in the first place.
35:22
Speaker 4: You know, I grew up in the nineties, and you know,
35:24
Speaker 4: that's when I think New York indie film was really
35:27
Speaker 4: kind of at its height, and you had great you know,
35:29
Speaker 4: you had you know, kids, and you had you know,
35:33
Speaker 4: all these great you know, The Simple Men and all
35:35
Speaker 4: these other great, great movies that were coming out. And
35:38
Speaker 4: you know, Jim Jarmish and and those guys were not
35:40
Speaker 4: making those movies thinking that they needed five main stars
35:45
Speaker 4: to make those movies. And I don't know that their
35:47
Speaker 4: films would have been as special if if they did so.
35:50
Speaker 4: I do think I understand it because I understand the
35:53
Speaker 4: financing side of things, and I understand why they're they're
35:56
Speaker 4: looking for that. But I would venture to say that
35:58
Speaker 4: the most success full independent films are the ones that
36:02
Speaker 4: where you know, artistry is really at the at the forefront.
36:06
Speaker 4: You know.
36:07
Speaker 3: I had on Chris Jay who from Armia Freshman, and
36:10
Speaker 3: he actually made a movie called The Bet. And what
36:14
Speaker 3: they did was they actually crowdfunded a little bit of money,
36:16
Speaker 3: uh and actually took that money and sort of has
36:18
Speaker 3: like a seed investment, and they actually went out to
36:21
Speaker 3: to find you know, more money through actual investors, and
36:24
Speaker 3: because that's that they actually had to you know, basically
36:27
Speaker 3: that's sort of like the new model, as he was saying,
36:29
Speaker 3: you know mean, because that's that way he could you know,
36:31
Speaker 3: use that to go out and fly to meet these
36:33
Speaker 3: people or or what you have these meetings or you know,
36:37
Speaker 3: and and you know that they finally got the money
36:39
Speaker 3: and they you know, if you watch the bet, you
36:42
Speaker 3: know has like Jake the Snake, Roberts has Rady already
36:44
Speaker 3: Piper in it, you know what I mean, Like those
36:46
Speaker 3: like we were just saying, they're sprinkled throughout the whole movie.
36:50
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I I personally don't really know how
36:52
Speaker 4: the crowd for for sourcing stuff works. I'm interested in it,
36:56
Speaker 4: you know, I've seen some good stuff happen from it.
36:58
Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean a lot of filmmaking is about
37:01
Speaker 4: momentum and so anything that you can use to get
37:04
Speaker 4: momentum going. So if you know, a lot of times
37:07
Speaker 4: we would I would raise you know, seed money or
37:09
Speaker 4: we'd raise development money for a film. If you can
37:11
Speaker 4: do that through crowdsourcing to give that would give you
37:14
Speaker 4: the momentum that you need. And once you're momentum. Then
37:17
Speaker 4: people start to pay attention. You know, if you say, look,
37:19
Speaker 4: we're going to make this movie maybe, or we're going
37:21
Speaker 4: to make this movie in October, it's very different. It's
37:24
Speaker 4: very different for agents, and it's very different forecast to
37:27
Speaker 4: wrap their head around trying to come on board.
37:31
Speaker 3: You know, Aaron, if you ever have any questions about crowdfunding,
37:33
Speaker 3: I will be more than happy to answer any questions
37:35
Speaker 3: you may have because I have done I've done it
37:39
Speaker 3: a number of times. I've helped other filmmakers raise budgets
37:42
Speaker 3: all that good stuff. So I even wrote a couple
37:44
Speaker 3: of articles about it, which was actually one of them
37:47
Speaker 3: was on Any Film Hustle with Alex Ferrari, who you
37:49
Speaker 3: with whom you were on the podcast I did? Yeah,
37:52
Speaker 3: So so it's on his site, so it's you know,
37:54
Speaker 3: it's yeah. So if you have any questions, please let
37:57
Speaker 3: me know.
37:57
Speaker 5: Great.
37:58
Speaker 3: So, you know, guys, I had some fan questions come in.
38:01
Speaker 3: Would you mind answering a few?
38:03
Speaker 4: No, sounds great.
38:06
Speaker 3: My first question just said. My first question comes in
38:10
Speaker 3: from the Good People podcast Reviews, which is at the
38:13
Speaker 3: Hippo Critics. As the film was mentioned on WTF podcast
38:17
Speaker 3: with Mark Maron as being delayed. What issues did you encounter?
38:21
Speaker 4: Oh? Well, what was can you read the question? I'm sorry?
38:24
Speaker 3: The short no problem as the film was mentioned on
38:28
Speaker 3: WTF pod podcast with Mark Maron as being delayed. What
38:32
Speaker 3: issues did you encounter? Yeah?
38:34
Speaker 4: We uh, I think it was he was talking to
38:36
Speaker 4: Eric Andre the the film itself, you know, we we
38:40
Speaker 4: put together and it was put together a really small
38:43
Speaker 4: small budget, and then we were we cut the film.
38:48
Speaker 4: I was, like I said, I was directing Urge and
38:51
Speaker 4: was able to tack then kind of right before that,
38:54
Speaker 4: come back and work with Bob on another cut, and
38:57
Speaker 4: then really it was just the the vaguer of their
39:00
Speaker 4: current indie space. You know, we were looking for We
39:03
Speaker 4: weren't looking to go you know, we were very proud
39:06
Speaker 4: of the film, and we were looking for the right
39:08
Speaker 4: partner for it, and so we had been approached by
39:11
Speaker 4: it by a bunch, but their ideas for bringing it
39:13
Speaker 4: out just were not aggressive enough. And then we were
39:16
Speaker 4: lucky enough to connect with stars who have been great
39:20
Speaker 4: to us and uh and have have a really great
39:23
Speaker 4: idea for bringing the movie out and doing it theatrically
39:26
Speaker 4: as well as as as V O D. And then
39:29
Speaker 4: and then I partnered with Hulu, so the movie will
39:31
Speaker 4: get a much broader uh in premature than than it
39:35
Speaker 4: would have and I think holding out for the right
39:38
Speaker 4: situation was was the best idea. Then after that they
39:41
Speaker 4: had a schedule of when you know what, when the
39:43
Speaker 4: movie would fit in the queue, which took some time
39:46
Speaker 4: as well. But yeah, I think it's it's it's been
39:49
Speaker 4: something because I think a lot of the casts and
39:51
Speaker 4: myself included, we're really happy and proud of the film
39:53
Speaker 4: and really liked it, wanted to see it come out,
39:56
Speaker 4: and the waiting has made a little bit of a bomber.
40:00
Speaker 4: But we've reached out now to cast.
40:03
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
40:09
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
40:12
Speaker 4: And they're all coming back on board to uh TO
40:15
Speaker 4: to help promote it now, which has been great.
40:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that that There's another question that came in
40:21
Speaker 3: which actually ties in to what we're just talking about,
40:24
Speaker 3: is you know, do you find it hard to release
40:26
Speaker 3: a film now because the marketplace has gotten a little
40:28
Speaker 3: bit more crowded.
40:33
Speaker 4: M Baron, Yeah, I think I think so, but I
40:38
Speaker 4: don't I don't know that it's as crowded as it is.
40:41
Speaker 4: There are other options, you know, I think it's it's
40:44
Speaker 4: you saw Glutz in the independent film world a few times, right.
40:48
Speaker 4: I think two thousand and six seven was probably one
40:50
Speaker 4: that I can remember specifically because it was like a lot,
40:53
Speaker 4: there were a lot of good movies that came out,
40:55
Speaker 4: and it was we were dealing with a flush of
40:57
Speaker 4: money that hit the independent market, mostly from hedge funds,
41:01
Speaker 4: and it was just creating too much product that couldn't
41:04
Speaker 4: be absorbed. Now, I don't know if it's that. I
41:07
Speaker 4: don't know if that's the issue. I think the issue
41:09
Speaker 4: is just what are our behaviors. I think our behaviors
41:12
Speaker 4: have changed, which is in some ways scarier because I
41:15
Speaker 4: think our behaviors used to be, you know, great, it's
41:18
Speaker 4: Friday night, I'm going to go on a date, let's
41:19
Speaker 4: go to let's go watch a movie. Now you literally
41:23
Speaker 4: have like, you know, people say things like let's Netflix
41:27
Speaker 4: and chill right, which is a completely different sort of mindset,
41:31
Speaker 4: And I think that's pervasive. So I think people now
41:34
Speaker 4: looking for more stuff that they can binge watch, more
41:37
Speaker 4: stuff that they can see. I think people are enjoying watching,
41:40
Speaker 4: you know, something that's more in depth, like ten episodes
41:43
Speaker 4: of narcos, and so I think that the amount of
41:48
Speaker 4: time people want to spend in the theater is less,
41:51
Speaker 4: and so therefore it's got to be more special. The
41:55
Speaker 4: corollary is that you have the studios and that are
41:59
Speaker 4: putting movies out there that know that the only way
42:02
Speaker 4: to really get people's attention is to spend quite a
42:05
Speaker 4: lot of money, and so the amount of films that
42:08
Speaker 4: they're willing to make that kind of risk on is
42:11
Speaker 4: really gone, you know. So what you're seeing less and
42:14
Speaker 4: less of are what I kind of grew up understanding,
42:17
Speaker 4: which was like that platform release where you're putting it
42:20
Speaker 4: on five screens is doing well, You're putting it on
42:22
Speaker 4: to ten, you're putting it on fifty, you're putting it
42:24
Speaker 4: on one hundred. You know, you're making a way to
42:26
Speaker 4: one thousand. You're seeing that happen less and less. So
42:30
Speaker 4: you either have big movies like you know, Marvel films
42:32
Speaker 4: that come out in four thousand screens, or you're seeing
42:35
Speaker 4: you know, Someding come out on two screens and then
42:37
Speaker 4: go to the od It's the world has has changed,
42:41
Speaker 4: and that's made it more and more difficult for producers.
42:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's something I've noticed as well, is that
42:47
Speaker 3: you know it is really you know, you sort of
42:49
Speaker 3: have to make those those those projections, right you sort
42:52
Speaker 3: of that's why we know, we were talking about sort
42:54
Speaker 3: of stacking the deck in our favor, and you have
42:56
Speaker 3: to make those projections that you know, this is how,
42:58
Speaker 3: you know, if we could sell vod, if we can
43:00
Speaker 3: sell it through a website, if we can get on iTunes,
43:02
Speaker 3: get an aggregator, all that stuff.
43:04
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, but the one thing I would I would say,
43:06
Speaker 4: and I would reinforce is one of you know, indie
43:08
Speaker 4: film in some ways hurt itself. Going back to that
43:11
Speaker 4: time two thousand and six seventy eight, there were a
43:14
Speaker 4: lot of uh, there was a lot of money. It
43:16
Speaker 4: was flush, and instead of producers saying, okay, let's find
43:19
Speaker 4: the right movies, people were grabbing projects that had been
43:22
Speaker 4: on on shelves for years and saying, well, let's make this.
43:25
Speaker 4: And so there was great stuff that came out at
43:27
Speaker 4: that time, but there was also a ton of stuff
43:29
Speaker 4: that was either not good or just wasn't yet ready
43:33
Speaker 4: to be put out there. So that's the other thing
43:36
Speaker 4: is for now you have multiple ways of getting to people,
43:39
Speaker 4: and even you know, having someone see a movie on
43:42
Speaker 4: Netflix is not the worst thing in the world, But
43:44
Speaker 4: what are you doing when they do find you? Are
43:48
Speaker 4: you doing anything new and interesting? Because that's what I
43:52
Speaker 4: think people will gravitate towards. You know, if it's a
43:55
Speaker 4: French you know, miniseries, but if it's amazing people are
43:58
Speaker 4: finding it on Netflix. I think that that's a good thing.
44:01
Speaker 4: But I think that puts the onlyus on the filmmaker
44:03
Speaker 4: to not just make a movie, but to make something
44:06
Speaker 4: that's that has a reason for being today.
44:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good point, Aaron.
44:11
Speaker 5: Uh.
44:11
Speaker 3: You know, and actually I have one final question that
44:13
Speaker 3: came in and basically it is, you know, what would
44:15
Speaker 3: you recommend for a first time producer making a film?
44:20
Speaker 4: Run run Away?
44:23
Speaker 3: I you know, look, that's the answer.
44:25
Speaker 4: The more that you know, the more you have one thing,
44:28
Speaker 4: you have to work harder than anybody else, and you
44:30
Speaker 4: have to get that out there. People need to see
44:32
Speaker 4: that you're willing to be, you know, as aggressive, more
44:36
Speaker 4: aggressive than anybody else, because momentum is really what makes
44:40
Speaker 4: a movie. People look at you when you have a
44:42
Speaker 4: script and you're trying to peddle a script around town.
44:45
Speaker 4: You have a script, and that's it may be great,
44:47
Speaker 4: it may not be, but that's why they view. If
44:49
Speaker 4: you have a movie, meaning you have this thing up
44:52
Speaker 4: and running, you guys are going to go on October twelfth,
44:55
Speaker 4: that changes things, that's complete, completely, creates a new dynamic.
44:59
Speaker 4: And so the a point at which as a producer,
45:02
Speaker 4: your goal is not to get a script funded by somebody,
45:06
Speaker 4: because that happens so infrequently. What you have to do
45:09
Speaker 4: is start adding the elements, right, So you have to
45:12
Speaker 4: look at who do I know, who can I get to,
45:14
Speaker 4: who can help me? And you have to not be
45:16
Speaker 4: afraid to go and try to bring those people on board.
45:19
Speaker 4: And so you have to think of it almost like
45:21
Speaker 4: you're keeping plates in the air, you know, spinning at
45:23
Speaker 4: all times you're running to you know, if you're gonna
45:26
Speaker 4: not direct it, you have to find the director for it.
45:29
Speaker 4: If you don't know a name director, you don't have
45:31
Speaker 4: somebody who you can bring on who adds value per se,
45:35
Speaker 4: find the most talented person you can find. Then you
45:38
Speaker 4: can get behind and you can show, look, this movie
45:40
Speaker 4: is not just a great movie, but I'm going to
45:41
Speaker 4: bring this incredible piece of talent to the world. And
45:44
Speaker 4: then as you're starting to talk to talent. You're now
45:48
Speaker 4: you have a great script with a really impressive filmmaker,
45:51
Speaker 4: and don't you want to be a part of this?
45:53
Speaker 4: And so you're always running the table and you kind
45:55
Speaker 4: of always have to do these things simultaneously. It's a
45:58
Speaker 4: lot of work, and I feed people that have an
46:02
Speaker 4: impulse to make a film sometimes don't always understand that
46:05
Speaker 4: the amount of work and sort of how grueling it
46:08
Speaker 4: it can be. You can't just approach it sequentially where
46:11
Speaker 4: I'm going to bring the script to somebody, He's gonna
46:13
Speaker 4: give me a bag of money. I'm then gonna go
46:15
Speaker 4: spend that money on great talent, and then we're gonna
46:17
Speaker 4: make a genie this movie and then go click, you know,
46:19
Speaker 4: Academy Awards. It just doesn't really work that way. It
46:22
Speaker 4: really is a game of trying to build momentum, and
46:26
Speaker 4: the more you build, the better your movie can can
46:29
Speaker 4: attract talent, and hopefully the better, better movie you'll be
46:32
Speaker 4: able to make.
46:33
Speaker 3: You know, there's a piece of producing advice that someone
46:36
Speaker 3: once gave me, and basically, all the resources come down
46:39
Speaker 3: to time and money. Either you need more time or
46:42
Speaker 3: you need more money. But they said you can spend
46:46
Speaker 3: you could spend time to get more money, but you
46:48
Speaker 3: can't spend money to get more time, sort of, right.
46:52
Speaker 3: I mean it's true.
46:52
Speaker 4: I mean I've been on you know, I've I've seen
46:55
Speaker 4: that before, where you know, you think you have all
46:58
Speaker 4: the money in the world and so therefore actually equal
47:00
Speaker 4: better movie and it doesn't always, you know, so I
47:03
Speaker 4: think that no matter where you are, And that was
47:05
Speaker 4: a lesson I learned working with Arbera Rodriguez was he
47:08
Speaker 4: wasn't always looking at like, how much money could I
47:11
Speaker 4: possibly get to make this movie. Quite the contrary, he
47:14
Speaker 4: would if he can get forty million dollars to make
47:16
Speaker 4: a spike at the movie, he'd make that movie for
47:17
Speaker 4: thirty because he was always trying to, you know, out
47:22
Speaker 4: smart the production, try to you know, deal with less.
47:26
Speaker 4: And also in that scenario he would always have a
47:28
Speaker 4: little bit more autonomy because the the onus was was
47:32
Speaker 4: far less than if he had made it for you know,
47:34
Speaker 4: fifty million dollars. So money doesn't always buy quality. If
47:37
Speaker 4: it did, then you know, every you know, every big
47:41
Speaker 4: Warner Brothers and Fox movie would be amazing. But it's
47:45
Speaker 4: it's not that said on the end front. You know,
47:48
Speaker 4: I think that you're you're still competing in a way
47:51
Speaker 4: with those large movies, and so you have to invest
47:55
Speaker 4: in something else. You don't have CG. You don't have
47:57
Speaker 4: you know, the these huge implementations. But what you do
48:02
Speaker 4: can have is style, and what you can have is
48:04
Speaker 4: story and great character and something that's going to to
48:09
Speaker 4: to pop. And so you can put a movie like
48:11
Speaker 4: Black Swan into the same mix as you know, The
48:15
Speaker 4: Avengers and it will do well because it's different enough
48:18
Speaker 4: and it's it's engaging enough. Yeah.
48:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, And and that's a really good point. And you know, Aaron,
48:24
Speaker 3: just to sort of, you know, at one final thought
48:27
Speaker 3: to that, you know, as we talk about you know,
48:29
Speaker 3: making you know films and producing our first films, one
48:32
Speaker 3: popular method, you know, I've heard from a lot of
48:35
Speaker 3: guests that I've on this podcast and even from reading books,
48:38
Speaker 3: particularly Stu Makowitz's.
48:42
Speaker 4: Book.
48:42
Speaker 3: Uh, basically it's creating that Rodriguez list, you know, and
48:46
Speaker 3: it's basically you know, creating that you know, find out
48:48
Speaker 3: what you have access to, and then you build a
48:51
Speaker 3: script around that. So if you you know what I mean,
48:53
Speaker 3: if you have Grandma's house, so you can use the
48:54
Speaker 3: basement shoot something in that basement, if you have an
48:57
Speaker 3: old student baker that's sitting somewhere, try to find a
48:59
Speaker 3: way to put down the script as well, for sure.
49:01
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think I would extend that to include
49:05
Speaker 4: relationships as well. You know, who do you know who,
49:08
Speaker 4: who you have access to, who can help you, who
49:10
Speaker 4: can introduce you to this person or that person? You know?
49:13
Speaker 4: And and uh and do that. But but more importantly,
49:16
Speaker 4: you know, at the end of the day, the piece
49:17
Speaker 4: piece that people forget sometimes is are you do you
49:21
Speaker 4: have something you're passionate about. You have a movie that
49:23
Speaker 4: you really want to tell you know that you know
49:26
Speaker 4: because a lot of this stuff is details. A lot
49:28
Speaker 4: of this stuff is you know the how, And I
49:31
Speaker 4: think you've got to figure out the why. And that's
49:33
Speaker 4: what hurts a lot of movies, is you have the how, like, oh,
49:37
Speaker 4: I wanted to make a movie and I figured out
49:39
Speaker 4: how to do it. That's great and I appreciate that,
49:41
Speaker 4: But at the same time, you really need to start
49:43
Speaker 4: from the why, which is I have this piece of
49:45
Speaker 4: material that is going to be so funny or it's
49:48
Speaker 4: so interesting, we're so engaging that you know, I have
49:51
Speaker 4: to get it out there. And that that's generally a
49:55
Speaker 4: better place to start.
49:58
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a wh heard from our
50:00
Speaker 2: sponsor and now back to the show.
50:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and that's a great point, Aaron. And
50:10
Speaker 3: but it is about who you know, right, This whole
50:11
Speaker 3: this whole industry is about relationships, and it is always
50:14
Speaker 3: about you know who you know, right. You know, guys,
50:18
Speaker 3: we've been talking for about, you know, forty nine minutes now,
50:21
Speaker 3: you know. So in closing, is there anything that we
50:24
Speaker 3: didn't talk about that you may wanted to discuss or
50:26
Speaker 3: sort of any sort of final thoughts that you'd like
50:28
Speaker 3: to add to this conversation. Just sort of put a
50:31
Speaker 3: period at the end of this whole thing.
50:32
Speaker 4: I know, Brian waiting on the election right print.
50:36
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure, I've been you know, starting up, and
50:40
Speaker 5: I think I've I've got it off, so you're out
50:41
Speaker 5: who's gonna wait in everything? So now I would say
50:46
Speaker 5: kind of big picture is a little bit what you
50:49
Speaker 5: what we've all been circling around, which is there is
50:55
Speaker 5: the movie you have in your mind, which is in
50:59
Speaker 5: your imagination. There is the reality of life.
51:03
Speaker 3: You have to deal.
51:05
Speaker 5: With the reality while I'm trying to execute this vision.
51:09
Speaker 5: So that to cross the board, whether you're dealing with resources, money, actors, locations, anything.
51:17
Speaker 5: You know, don't be an artist who has an aversion
51:20
Speaker 5: to reality. This is not going to help you make
51:23
Speaker 5: a movie. You'll you'll do what you do, but you're
51:26
Speaker 5: not gonna make a movie. So, you know, even though
51:30
Speaker 5: it's an unpleasant reality, often better that than not. That's
51:35
Speaker 5: kind of my That's what I've kind of learned essentially.
51:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're you're right, Brian, you know that that
51:42
Speaker 3: is something you know, Uh, you know, I yeah, you know,
51:46
Speaker 3: I sometimes think, you know, you sort of you have
51:48
Speaker 3: to pick and choose battles, right, you know what I mean,
51:50
Speaker 3: You can pick and choose battles as long as you
51:52
Speaker 3: win the war type of it, you know, you know
51:54
Speaker 3: what I mean? Mm hmm yeah, so uh so, Erin,
51:59
Speaker 3: is there any sort of final thoughts that you have
52:01
Speaker 3: the sort of as whole.
52:02
Speaker 4: Conversations that Flocked the Dudes comes out on September thirtieth
52:07
Speaker 4: and comes out in theaters and on on iTunes. We're
52:11
Speaker 4: really we're really happy with the movie and now hope
52:13
Speaker 4: everybody enjoys it.
52:16
Speaker 3: And everyone I will link to Flock of Dudes in
52:19
Speaker 3: the show notes. I will link to all the good
52:24
Speaker 3: stuff about the movie. I will link to everything we
52:26
Speaker 3: talked about. Brian. Where we will find you out online.
52:31
Speaker 5: The website from me and the guys is the post
52:33
Speaker 5: show dot com, and you can find some sketches that
52:36
Speaker 5: we had done kind of leading up to Flock of
52:38
Speaker 5: Dudes and also just some other information of us.
52:43
Speaker 4: Cool.
52:43
Speaker 3: Are you on Twitter or Facebook or anything on I'm
52:47
Speaker 3: on Facebook. I'm not on Twitter, so okay, cool and
52:52
Speaker 3: Aaron were we'll find you at all.
52:53
Speaker 4: I'm on Twitter at at a underscore Kaufman k A
52:57
Speaker 4: U F M A N on Twitter and I think
52:59
Speaker 4: I'm Aaron K. Kaufman on Instagram cool, and I will link.
53:04
Speaker 3: To that in the show notes as well. H Aaron, Brian,
53:07
Speaker 3: I want to say thank you very much for coming on.
53:09
Speaker 3: I wish you the best with Flock of Dudes. Guys.
53:11
Speaker 3: I look forward to seeing Flock of Dudes or whatever
53:13
Speaker 3: he can from Oh My Pleasure guys, Thank you, I
53:16
Speaker 3: wish you the best. All right, thanks my pleasure. By
53:18
Speaker 3: take care guys.
53:20
Speaker 2: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
53:22
Speaker 2: a great job on this episode. If you want to
53:23
Speaker 2: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode.
53:25
Speaker 2: Head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
53:29
Speaker 2: Forward slash for sixty three. Thank you so much for
53:31
Speaker 2: listening to guys as always, keep on writing no matter what.
53:35
Speaker 4: I'll talk to you soon.
53:36
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at bulletproof
53:40
Speaker 1: Screenwriting dot tv.