Latest / The Book Deal / The Writing Deal: Tina, Madeleine and Natasha discuss 'listening' to Book 2, wading through the poo and figuring out the 'write' routine

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The Writing Deal: Tina, Madeleine and Natasha discuss 'listening' to Book 2, wading through the poo and figuring out the 'write' routine · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Tina Strachan: This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Natasha Rai: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:25
  Tina Strachan: So no matter what stage of writing your at, we've got you covered.
• 0:29
  Tina Strachan: I'm Tina Strachan
• 0:30
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  Tina Strachan: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
• 0:37
  Madeleine Cleary: one deal at a time.
• 0:43
  Madeleine Cleary: The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Natasha Rai: hey ladies.
• 0:57
  Tina Strachan: Hi.
• 0:58
  Tina Strachan: Morning.
• 0:58
  Natasha Rai: Hi Tina.
• 0:59
  Natasha Rai: Hi Mads.
• 0:59
  Natasha Rai: How's it going?
• 1:01
  Tina Strachan: Good.
• 1:02
  Natasha Rai: Tina.
• 1:03
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 1:03
  Natasha Rai: Tell me about what's going on.
• 1:05
  Natasha Rai: So you've just had your first like author life.
• 1:10
  Natasha Rai: Not working.
• 1:11
  Natasha Rai: Nine to five type routine.
• 1:13
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 1:14
  Natasha Rai: Kick in, yes.
• 1:14
  Tina Strachan: Routine.
• 1:15
  Tina Strachan: Hmm.
• 1:15
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 1:16
  Tina Strachan: Can we call it that?
• 1:17
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 1:17
  Tina Strachan: And like when did, how long ago was it that we chatted?
• 1:19
  Tina Strachan: It was, well about a month ago.
• 1:22
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 1:22
  Tina Strachan: Um, so a lot's happened.
• 1:24
  Tina Strachan: Um, in that time and I launched book three of the Wilder Zoo series Neeka and the Great search, which was lots of fun, and did the launch at, uh, Currumbin Wildlife Hospital, which was so fun.
• 1:37
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 1:38
  Tina Strachan: Um, and so amazing.
• 1:39
  Tina Strachan: And it was, um, amazing to support the Wildlife Hospital as well.
• 1:43
  Tina Strachan: And such a fantastic turnout from all my friends and family and bridle buds.
• 1:48
  Tina Strachan: It was great.
• 1:49
  Tina Strachan: Um, and who helped
• 1:50
  Madeleine Cleary: you launch it, Tina?
• 1:52
  Tina Strachan: Uh oh.
• 1:53
  Tina Strachan: Who was my in conversation partner?
• 1:55
  Tina Strachan: It was Sarah Armstrong, who is another amazing, uh, middle grade author and adults author as well.
• 2:02
  Tina Strachan: Um, and my son especially loves her.
• 2:04
  Tina Strachan: My oldest loves her latest books as well, so yeah, it, that was really fun.
• 2:08
  Tina Strachan: That was really nice.
• 2:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Can I ask you a question, Tina?
• 2:10
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 2:11
  Madeleine Cleary: What gifts do you buy your in conversation partner, because that's a thing, isn't it?
• 2:16
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think this is important for all the, um.
• 2:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Debuts coming up.
• 2:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 2:20
  Natasha Rai: Yeah,
• 2:21
  Tina Strachan: yeah.
• 2:21
  Madeleine Cleary: What do
• 2:22
  Tina Strachan: you find
• 2:22
  Madeleine Cleary: them?
• 2:23
  Tina Strachan: But I mean, do you, you know, to do what you feel is right.
• 2:26
  Tina Strachan: Um, and I guess you probably don't have to, um, but I did, and I think it's been a little bit different for each of my.
• 2:35
  Tina Strachan: In convo partners and, um, you know, and it's varied.
• 2:40
  Tina Strachan: So, uh, so like Sarah actually got her, um, this really cute little, uh, planter.
• 2:49
  Tina Strachan: That I'll have to show you a photo.
• 2:51
  Tina Strachan: It's so cute.
• 2:51
  Tina Strachan: And it's like these two little, um, round little plantar pots with faces and one's reading a book and another one's having a cup of coffee and it's super cute.
• 2:58
  Tina Strachan: Oh, cute.
• 2:58
  Tina Strachan: And I also got one for myself'cause it was so cute.
• 3:01
  Tina Strachan: Um, and, um, what else did I get?
• 3:04
  Tina Strachan: Oh, I got this really, um, beautiful candle that I got from the Quick Brown Fox bookstore.
• 3:10
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 3:11
  Tina Strachan: From this company that supplies all this like really bookish, cute little stuff.
• 3:15
  Tina Strachan: So if you're stuck for an idea, normally you have an author, right?
• 3:18
  Tina Strachan: That's your convo partner.
• 3:19
  Tina Strachan: Look up like bookish gifts or gifts for authors.
• 3:22
  Tina Strachan: And that's how I actually came up with that.
• 3:24
  Tina Strachan: Um, but this was, yeah, and it was like a magic themed candle, so it was like.
• 3:31
  Tina Strachan: This, it had smells of, um, vanilla and parchment and dragon's blood.
• 3:37
  Tina Strachan: And it was like, so, I mean, it didn't really but it and had glitter in it.
• 3:40
  Tina Strachan: It was cute.
• 3:40
  Tina Strachan: 'cause she's, she's got some books that are about magic and um, and just a couple little things in there.
• 3:45
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, so if I know the person really well, I can sort of try and, um, personalize it.
• 3:52
  Tina Strachan: But there's been times when I've done like a nice little local jam from where, from where I come from, um, with.
• 4:00
  Tina Strachan: Um, like a, a, a movie voucher, like a gold class fancy voucher or something like that.
• 4:06
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 4:07
  Tina Strachan: I'm not as familiar with things that they would like, but I mean, if you know that they don't mind, um, wine or something like that.
• 4:14
  Tina Strachan: A bottle of wine's, nice.
• 4:15
  Tina Strachan: Um, plants, flowers, things like that.
• 4:18
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, try and
• 4:19
  Madeleine Cleary: personalize.
• 4:20
  Madeleine Cleary: You're so good with this.
• 4:21
  Madeleine Cleary: This is why I asked you, because I think I asked.
• 4:24
  Madeleine Cleary: This question last year when I was, had lots of Inc convo partners for various events, what do I get them?
• 4:29
  Madeleine Cleary: And you came up with all the great ideas.
• 4:31
  Madeleine Cleary: So this is, yeah, very helpful.
• 4:33
  Madeleine Cleary: And it's like part of that admin, isn't it?
• 4:35
  Madeleine Cleary: That that author admin burden, you're kind of like, oh, I have to think of this.
• 4:39
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 4:40
  Tina Strachan: And if you have a lot though, like you had a lot, you could.
• 4:43
  Tina Strachan: Possibly spent your whole advance on, on
• 4:46
  Madeleine Cleary: gifts?
• 4:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Did I reckon?
• 4:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 4:47
  Madeleine Cleary: I think I had like eight all laid out.
• 4:49
  Madeleine Cleary: But you don't have
• 4:49
  Tina Strachan: to.
• 4:50
  Tina Strachan: You really don't have to.
• 4:51
  Tina Strachan: And um,
• 4:52
  Madeleine Cleary: it's nice too though.
• 4:53
  Madeleine Cleary: And I feel like that, I mean, I guess it's, it does depend on your own financial circumstances, but it can be just something small.
• 4:59
  Madeleine Cleary: It
• 4:59
  Tina Strachan: doesn't have say a handwritten card.
• 5:01
  Tina Strachan: Seriously.
• 5:01
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 5:01
  Natasha Rai: Or even like a gift voucher for a bookshop like your local.
• 5:06
  Tina Strachan: We know they like books.
• 5:07
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 5:07
  Tina Strachan: Nice bookmarks.
• 5:09
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 5:10
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, that and like a little a candle or something depending on who it's seriously.
• 5:13
  Tina Strachan: Like that's, it's just, it really truly is the thought that counts
• 5:17
  Madeleine Cleary: because more than often your in convo partners aren't getting paid, um,
• 5:21
  Tina Strachan: and not getting paid.
• 5:22
  Tina Strachan: But it is always nice if you can to stock their books as well.
• 5:25
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 5:25
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 5:25
  Tina Strachan: Um, so everyone that I've done the, so I've had, uh, QBD come along to some of my last, um, uh.
• 5:34
  Tina Strachan: Book launches and um, they've, yeah, you can request and they normally do like to bring the other authors as well'cause it's beneficial for them'cause they can sell more, more books, right?
• 5:44
  Tina Strachan: 'cause there's more books there.
• 5:45
  Tina Strachan: Um, and that's good for the in convo partner as well as they get a little bit of, um, exposure and hopefully sell a few books too.
• 5:51
  Tina Strachan: 'cause they are doing it out of the kindness of their own hearts.
• 5:54
  Madeleine Cleary: And, um, I, I think also if you are, if your Inc convo partners there, often they won't.
• 6:00
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, feel comfortable pitching their own book to the audience.
• 6:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Not at all.
• 6:04
  Madeleine Cleary: So if you can pitch their book as well to everybody, give them a little rundown of what the book is, um, why they should buy it, why that's important.
• 6:12
  Madeleine Cleary: I think just giving them a shout out because, you know, it's not their event.
• 6:16
  Madeleine Cleary: And as a in convo partner, you know, you are there to support the other author, but I think it, and you, so you don't wanna like go and pitch it.
• 6:22
  Madeleine Cleary: But it's nice I think when the other author kind of does it,'cause it does generate a few sales as well for them.
• 6:27
  Tina Strachan: Yep.
• 6:28
  Tina Strachan: Yep.
• 6:29
  Tina Strachan: Which is important.
• 6:30
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 6:30
  Tina Strachan: So, yeah.
• 6:30
  Madeleine Cleary: Anyway, sorry, I just got, that was a No,
• 6:32
  Tina Strachan: that's okay.
• 6:33
  Tina Strachan: But yeah, no, that's, that's a really good point and it's really beneficial, but on, but honestly, just don't feel the pressure.
• 6:38
  Tina Strachan: Anyone who has these, um, just, just anything like e even just a card, a heartfelt card is, you know, and if you're good at handy crafts and things yourself, like, I know lots of people that crochet these gorgeous bookmarks and stuff like that probably means a lot more to them than anything else.
• 6:53
  Tina Strachan: So.
• 6:56
  Natasha Rai: Um, so tell me then, Tina,'cause we had a few chats on our kind of group chat about your new routine.
• 7:04
  Natasha Rai: What are you kind of figuring out?
• 7:07
  Natasha Rai: Mm,
• 7:08
  Tina Strachan: yes.
• 7:09
  Tina Strachan: So, yes, because I have, um, you know, taken a bit, a little bit of an extended break for a little while from work.
• 7:14
  Tina Strachan: I've been very fortunate that I can do that.
• 7:16
  Tina Strachan: And, um, it's for someone who's on the go 100% of the time.
• 7:22
  Tina Strachan: Like I, I've left you girls a few voice messages like.
• 7:25
  Tina Strachan: Just with notes of what I've discovered from my few days of, of this new routine is, I mean, I feel like I've only really had like a week to try that out because things were so busy leading up to the launch and then I was like trying to catch up on all the stuff I'd.
• 7:41
  Tina Strachan: You know, life admin and author, admin that I put to the side for so long.
• 7:44
  Tina Strachan: So yes, I've discovered that, and I think I did know this, but because I had such little writing time before I optimized that to the nth degree, like I did not let a second go.
• 7:56
  Tina Strachan: I, and I felt, actually felt a lot of anxiety about.
• 8:00
  Tina Strachan: Quick, like you've got, you've got 20 minutes while you're sitting in the car waiting for the school bell to go, must write, must write, get words down or edit or something like that.
• 8:07
  Tina Strachan: Um, which is actually very, could be very good for productivity, but you can't do that five days a week.
• 8:12
  Tina Strachan: It's not healthy, nor is it sustainable.
• 8:15
  Tina Strachan: Um, so that's been a whole new way of trying to get my mind around that.
• 8:20
  Tina Strachan: I still have not worked it out.
• 8:21
  Tina Strachan: Um, but definitely I think I've realized that, um, there's.
• 8:26
  Tina Strachan: You really only have as romantic as it sounds to have maybe like a six hour, eight hour worth of potential writing time.
• 8:33
  Tina Strachan: You can't write for that long.
• 8:35
  Tina Strachan: I mean, you could do like creativity and creating new words.
• 8:38
  Tina Strachan: I just don't think you can do that for eight hours every day.
• 8:42
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 8:43
  Tina Strachan: So I think I found that I've got maybe a couple of hours in the morning, like maybe between like nine and 12 where I'm at my peak creativity and I think that's when I can do write new words.
• 8:55
  Tina Strachan: Um, and then after that, and then I think I just need a break, um, move away from it for a bit.
• 9:02
  Tina Strachan: Madeleine suggested I read and I'm like, oh my God, I love this reading.
• 9:06
  Tina Strachan: I've never really considered.
• 9:08
  Tina Strachan: That, but I love that because it feels like a bit of a rest, but I'm still, you know, immersing myself with, aligned with writing and storytelling.
• 9:18
  Tina Strachan: And then I think like the afternoons, like Tash, you also suggested with yourself, um, that's when you can do catch up on some emails or socials or your, or just author, admin, um, or you know, something like if I've got edit something that's a little, like line limits or something that requires a little less creativity.
• 9:36
  Tina Strachan: I'm still feeling like I'm ticking a box.
• 9:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 9:39
  Tina Strachan: Um, I didn't do so well with that last week, but that's okay.
• 9:41
  Tina Strachan: I'm getting there.
• 9:42
  Tina Strachan: Um, maybe in a month's time I can check back on.
• 9:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, it's only new
• 9:45
  Tina Strachan: impressions.
• 9:47
  Tina Strachan: You've gotta
• 9:47
  Madeleine Cleary: adjust, don't you?
• 9:48
  Madeleine Cleary: Do you, are you still getting up at four 30 in the morning?
• 9:50
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 9:51
  Tina Strachan: Yes, I am.
• 9:52
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 9:53
  Tina Strachan: I just, I, I'm, because I,'cause you know why, the reason why, and I think it's like exercise as well, if I do it first thing in the morning, like nothing.
• 10:04
  Tina Strachan: Because if I, if I try to do it any other time during the day, I won't.
• 10:07
  Tina Strachan: I know that I won't.
• 10:08
  Tina Strachan: So I feel like if I do my writing in the morning, even if it's just for that hour, um, it.
• 10:15
  Tina Strachan: I will feel comfortable for the rest of the day.
• 10:16
  Tina Strachan: The whole day could go to crap, like the whole rest of the day.
• 10:18
  Tina Strachan: I could have like sick children or I'll be sick or, or anything.
• 10:22
  Tina Strachan: But I've still done that.
• 10:23
  Tina Strachan: I've still tick that box and I still feel, um, comfortable with that.
• 10:27
  Tina Strachan: So.
• 10:27
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 10:28
  Tina Strachan: That's, that's my plan.
• 10:29
  Tina Strachan: I don't know, but I did ask you girls what your, for some advice, so.
• 10:34
  Tina Strachan: Please, Tash, tell me, what do you
• 10:36
  Natasha Rai: think?
• 10:36
  Natasha Rai: No, like I really, I really wanna come back to that, um, because it kind of dovetails into some other things I've been thinking about in terms of writing and stuff.
• 10:44
  Natasha Rai: But I just wanna also see how Mads is going.
• 10:46
  Natasha Rai: How are you?
• 10:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, all good.
• 10:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, just it's funny, isn't it?
• 10:51
  Madeleine Cleary: January was so lovely.
• 10:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Like for me it was very,'cause I don't have kids, so it's not like I'm, you know, looking after kids over the school holidays or anything.
• 10:58
  Madeleine Cleary: And it felt very peaceful.
• 11:01
  Madeleine Cleary: I didn't have any kind of events.
• 11:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Work was pretty chill.
• 11:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, and then as soon as.
• 11:06
  Madeleine Cleary: One Feb hit, it's just bang, bang, bang.
• 11:09
  Madeleine Cleary: And it feels like going kind of back to what it was, um, in the lead up to Christmas.
• 11:13
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, I'm, I'm gonna start implementing some new rules and I only came up with these today.
• 11:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, so we'll see how they go.
• 11:20
  Madeleine Cleary: But I've decided that.
• 11:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, I'm not going to check social media on weekends and I'm gonna really cut that out because at the moment I've got this rule where I'm checking it once per day, uh, on my laptop.
• 11:33
  Madeleine Cleary: But that's been creeping back in, in Feb.
• 11:35
  Madeleine Cleary: I've been finding like I might check it in the morning and maybe at lunch, on your laptop still.
• 11:39
  Madeleine Cleary: On my laptop and then with with the afternoon.
• 11:42
  Madeleine Cleary: And then, so I may be checking it three to four times a day, and I find myself just starting to do that scroll.
• 11:47
  Madeleine Cleary: So I'm gonna be really strict, I think, no, no socials on weekends only.
• 11:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Check it after work.
• 11:53
  Madeleine Cleary: So 5:00 PM that's my author admin time, and I'm gonna treat it as admin.
• 11:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, rather than, you know, something just to like have that brain break, you know, sometimes you just, you just want to,
• 12:04
  Tina Strachan: it's not a break though, is
• 12:05
  Madeleine Cleary: it?
• 12:05
  Madeleine Cleary: It's not.
• 12:06
  Madeleine Cleary: It's terrible.
• 12:07
  Tina Strachan: It's so bad.
• 12:07
  Tina Strachan: It's the complete opposite even.
• 12:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, exactly.
• 12:10
  Madeleine Cleary: So I'm gonna try and implement that and get back to where I was I was at in this very peaceful kind of state and creative state, Jen.
• 12:17
  Madeleine Cleary: So that's gonna be what I'm doing.
• 12:18
  Madeleine Cleary: And then the other very interesting thing that happened.
• 12:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I'm not sure how often this happens to people, but I got a message from my dad who'd been contacted by one of his friends who alerted, uh, him to a walking tour available in Melbourne on the Butterfly Women.
• 12:39
  Madeleine Cleary: So this, this company has developed this entire walking tour based on my novel, which is both cool, but also.
• 12:47
  Madeleine Cleary: It's strange to see you see that up there.
• 12:51
  Natasha Rai: Well, it's strange because it sounds amazing given that how you found out, they haven't obviously spoken to you about it.
• 12:56
  Madeleine Cleary: I mean, it's amazing.
• 12:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Like it's great.
• 12:58
  Natasha Rai: It's totally amazing.
• 12:59
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 12:59
  Madeleine Cleary: So great and so cool.
• 13:01
  Madeleine Cleary: And, um, on the sort of a walking tour advertisement, it like lists places that I've made up in my head.
• 13:08
  Madeleine Cleary: So it's like we'll go to the Papillon and the White Heart and you know, Magdalene and so it's actually not
• 13:15
  Tina Strachan: real.
• 13:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, I mean, it's,
• 13:18
  Tina Strachan: maybe it's a virtual reality one, which would also be super cool.
• 13:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, it's, that's
• 13:25
  Tina Strachan: a good idea.
• 13:26
  Madeleine Cleary: So anyway, but I guess it's interesting to know for writers that, um, and I spoke with my publisher about it, uh.
• 13:33
  Madeleine Cleary: They can't use the image of the novel in the ad'cause that's a copyright issue.
• 13:37
  Madeleine Cleary: But anyone can kind of go and take your IP and develop something and that's cool.
• 13:43
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause it is, it is, I suppose, you know, advertising the book like it's free advertising.
• 13:48
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and yeah, so I'm tempted just like.
• 13:51
  Madeleine Cleary: Put on a hat and
• 13:53
  Tina Strachan: yeah,
• 13:53
  Madeleine Cleary: on the tour,
• 13:54
  Tina Strachan: please incognito, please.
• 13:56
  Tina Strachan: Next time I'm down there.
• 13:56
  Tina Strachan: I'm doing that.
• 13:57
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 13:58
  Tina Strachan: Any listeners
• 13:58
  Madeleine Cleary: down there?
• 13:58
  Madeleine Cleary: I just, I go, I guess for anyone listening, like, um, I haven't endorsed this tour, so I can't say if it's accurate or not, but if you are interested in a tour of the Butterfly women, um, and of that era of Melbourne, let me know because I'm thinking maybe, maybe there's a market for this.
• 14:14
  Tina Strachan: I think there is.
• 14:15
  Tina Strachan: I think it would be really cool.
• 14:16
  Tina Strachan: But the, the selling point is.
• 14:20
  Tina Strachan: Like you doing it?
• 14:21
  Tina Strachan: Is that your thing?
• 14:22
  Tina Strachan: Would you
• 14:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Alright, I'll do it.
• 14:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh my God, you get
• 14:25
  Natasha Rai: sold out in seconds.
• 14:27
  Madeleine Cleary: I've always wanted to be a tour guide.
• 14:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Like you know, you see those like, oh my god, you historic, my god.
• 14:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Such a good
• 14:32
  Natasha Rai: tour guide.
• 14:33
  Natasha Rai: Oh my Lord.
• 14:34
  Madeleine Cleary: And you see those like old retired ladies that take them around, like volunteers.
• 14:38
  Madeleine Cleary: That is my dream job in future.
• 14:40
  Natasha Rai: Really?
• 14:41
  Natasha Rai: I remember when you were taking me around that.
• 14:42
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 14:43
  Natasha Rai: And I was like, this is amazing.
• 14:45
  Tina Strachan: And the real, and it has to finish with gin tasting.
• 14:48
  Tina Strachan: Right, of course, obviously.
• 14:50
  Tina Strachan: Oh, okay.
• 14:51
  Tina Strachan: Of course.
• 14:51
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 14:52
  Tina Strachan: Stay tuned, everyone.
• 14:53
  Tina Strachan: This is gonna be amazing.
• 14:54
  Tina Strachan: You need to, I'm booking my flight.
• 14:55
  Natasha Rai: I
• 14:56
  know.
• 14:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Alright, we'll keep you guys in the loop then.
• 14:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 14:59
  Madeleine Cleary: How about you, Tash?
• 15:00
  Madeleine Cleary: How is, how's your, what's your update?
• 15:03
  Natasha Rai: Um, so I've been,'cause all, okay, so I've been thinking about book two'cause I've just.
• 15:09
  Natasha Rai: Submitted it back or returned it, I should say, or given it, I don't know yet.
• 15:14
  Tina Strachan: Congratulations.
• 15:14
  Natasha Rai: I'm sorry Enough that I can't even speak.
• 15:16
  Tina Strachan: Celebrated.
• 15:17
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 15:17
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, it's, it's big.
• 15:18
  Natasha Rai: I just sent it back to Tom, my publisher, and I was just thinking about the whole feeling of it.
• 15:25
  Natasha Rai: So taking, putting aside all the publisher deadlines.
• 15:28
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I was just thinking purely about how it is to write a second book or other books.
• 15:34
  Natasha Rai: And Tina, you'd be a bloody pro at this now.
• 15:36
  Natasha Rai: Um.
• 15:38
  Natasha Rai: But you know, like I know that Matthew had that great interview with Martin Pot Russell and Ali Parker about this, and, but I was just thinking purely from a craft point of view and routine point of view, like.
• 15:50
  Natasha Rai: What's different?
• 15:51
  Natasha Rai: What's the same in terms of how you approach a second or a third novel,
• 15:58
  Madeleine Cleary: especially after you know that it may be published?
• 16:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Because I guess with your first book, when you're writing it, you're writing it for yourself.
• 16:06
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 16:06
  Natasha Rai: And I mean, maybe I'm in a different place then, because I think Allie.
• 16:11
  Natasha Rai: Oh no, I think it was Mark who said it in your, in your episode about,'cause you'd had a bit of time, he'd written other manuscripts.
• 16:18
  Natasha Rai: So I'm in the same kind of experience as that where I've written other manuscripts and I, I'm returning to them now.
• 16:26
  Natasha Rai: But it's, so yes, there is the possibility that there might be published, but also I wrote them at a time where I didn't know that.
• 16:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 16:33
  Natasha Rai: But also going back to them.
• 16:35
  Natasha Rai: I am just noticing like new feelings and new things coming up that I'm like, this is so interesting.
• 16:41
  Natasha Rai: Like onslaught, I was just writing in, not in the dark so much, but just writing, not knowing what I was doing and getting beautiful feedback from editors and other people and just incorporating that and ah, you know, just hoping and going and whatever.
• 16:55
  Natasha Rai: Whereas like this one, it feels.
• 16:59
  Natasha Rai: It feels harder, not as in the actual writing of it, but my feelings towards it are a bit more complicated.
• 17:06
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I'm like, it's not at the standard right now that I would like it to be when I do a direct comparison of where Onslaught was at the same time when I was showing it to people.
• 17:17
  Natasha Rai: So not even a publisher but just showing it to people.
• 17:20
  Natasha Rai: Um, and I'm like, and there are things about it that I actually don't know how to fix.
• 17:28
  Natasha Rai: I had the same experience with Onslaught, but this is different in that it, it's a more, it's supposed to be a more, and I'm doing air quotes.
• 17:36
  Natasha Rai: I don't know why.
• 17:36
  Natasha Rai: 'cause no one can see it except for you two.
• 17:38
  Natasha Rai: But it's meant to be a more polished draft.
• 17:41
  Natasha Rai: And also my routine this time around is different.
• 17:43
  Natasha Rai: Like onslaught.
• 17:43
  Natasha Rai: I was writing like what you said, Tina.
• 17:45
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I had a corporate job at the time, so I was writing on planes.
• 17:49
  Natasha Rai: When I had to do work trips, I was riding my one hour every morning before I had to go to work.
• 17:54
  Natasha Rai: Whereas now I have dedicated riding days, so I have.
• 17:57
  Natasha Rai: What feels like more time, but.
• 18:00
  Natasha Rai: It just feels a little hazy in a different way, and I was just really curious what it's like for you two when you've been writing, like follow up manuscripts or manuscripts after your, your first, when your case Third Tina.
• 18:14
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 18:15
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, but I think mine might be a little bit, excuse me, different.
• 18:18
  Tina Strachan: Um, because they are very much, uh, so I have got three published, but they're all in the same series, so the characters are already there, and it's known characters and known worlds.
• 18:29
  Tina Strachan: I mean, they change a little bit.
• 18:31
  Tina Strachan: So, and that's such a huge part, right, of.
• 18:34
  Tina Strachan: Your story.
• 18:36
  Tina Strachan: Um, I mean, and maybe then it's also a little bit different and harder in different ways in that because it is known characters, known worlds, how do you write new stories that don't seem like they're repeating or aren't so similar?
• 18:49
  Tina Strachan: So I think that was probably my, my biggest thing.
• 18:51
  Tina Strachan: Although I have 1,001 kinds of adventures that I could send some kids on in zoos and with wildlife.
• 18:56
  Tina Strachan: So, so it wasn't, I guess, too hard there, but.
• 18:59
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, you do wonder.
• 19:01
  Tina Strachan: And I think also timing.
• 19:02
  Tina Strachan: So I hadn't even had the first book come out yet, and I'd written all three.
• 19:07
  Tina Strachan: So I didn't know feedback.
• 19:09
  Tina Strachan: I didn't know how the first one went.
• 19:12
  Tina Strachan: So yeah, I think I was, I still had that beauty of just write, it still felt a little bit like writing.
• 19:19
  Tina Strachan: Quietly on my own, although I had deadlines.
• 19:22
  Tina Strachan: Whereas for both of you, you have, your books are out and published while you are, although actually created it before Onslaught had come out.
• 19:32
  Tina Strachan: But this is different now.
• 19:33
  Tina Strachan: We're talking about getting to a point of polishing, which still is a lot of work.
• 19:37
  Tina Strachan: Um, sort of, I guess knowing how your previous books have gone as well and how they've been and what your, your readers, I think, are expecting as well, so that that all plays a.
• 19:49
  Tina Strachan: It plays a part, doesn't
• 19:51
  Madeleine Cleary: it?
• 19:51
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I wonder if, if also you are rubbing up against the fact that you are, you are a different writer than who you were.
• 20:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Totally.
• 20:01
  Madeleine Cleary: You wrote this manuscript and my agent, actually, Sam, he made a really interesting point, um, to me a few months ago.
• 20:10
  Madeleine Cleary: He said, what you went through with.
• 20:12
  Madeleine Cleary: The editing of the butterfly women was in itself an intense masterclass where you will learn and pick up skills that you didn't have.
• 20:22
  Madeleine Cleary: It's almost better than going to university for four years, like you did it all within that really intense period.
• 20:28
  Madeleine Cleary: So you're gonna take those skills into your next books, um, not just the writing of the books, but also.
• 20:34
  Madeleine Cleary: The, the editing and how you structure and how you think about it.
• 20:38
  Madeleine Cleary: So maybe what's happening Tash, is you are looking at this manuscript and because you've had, you've gone through these intense, you know, period, you are thinking more about structure'cause you know what you can produce.
• 20:52
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 20:53
  Natasha Rai: But also just in our conversations between the three of us, I've also noticed that all three of us are.
• 21:00
  Natasha Rai: Trying or experimenting with things as at our comfort zone.
• 21:05
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 21:05
  Natasha Rai: So I think that's also part of it, isn't it, like as a writer, regardless whether you're published or not, I mean that helps in terms of confidence.
• 21:13
  Natasha Rai: But if you are writing like your first book, you write it and you don't, maybe you know what you're doing, maybe you have an idea, maybe you don't, who knows?
• 21:20
  Natasha Rai: But you do it.
• 21:21
  Natasha Rai: And then your second book,'cause you learn stuff, obviously.
• 21:24
  Natasha Rai: But I, I feel like.
• 21:26
  Natasha Rai: I'm taking risks in a way I wouldn't even have thought to do before, like these ideas that are coming or forms that I wanna play, but that I'm like, there's no way.
• 21:38
  Natasha Rai: Or I would've read something like that and gone, wow, this is amazing.
• 21:41
  Natasha Rai: I don't know how to do that.
• 21:42
  Natasha Rai: And, and it feels like that comes out.
• 21:44
  Natasha Rai: But I remember Tina, when we were in Magnetic Island last year, and you were talking about some ideas that you had and they were quite different.
• 21:52
  Natasha Rai: And, and in Matt, I know that you've definitely talked about books two and maybe a book three in terms of what you're writing, but just playing with something new and different form and
• 22:03
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 22:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 22:04
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 22:04
  Tina Strachan: 'cause then that's also a consideration, isn't it?
• 22:07
  Tina Strachan: Is um, I guess that readers liking your work and then.
• 22:14
  Tina Strachan: Um, look, writing is a consideration.
• 22:18
  Tina Strachan: Do, do I write very similar to what I've just produced, or do I write what's calling to me?
• 22:26
  Tina Strachan: Um, can I make them both work?
• 22:29
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, that's, that's a consideration too, isn't it?
• 22:32
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 22:32
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 22:33
  Tina Strachan: So, so when you are going out.
• 22:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Sorry Tina, you go.
• 22:36
  Tina Strachan: Oh no, I was just saying, so when you are doing all these extra risky things, Tasha, you sort of thinking, is that in your mind?
• 22:42
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 22:43
  Natasha Rai: I'm like, oh my God, am I kind of totally screw this up?
• 22:46
  Natasha Rai: And is this to kind of fall flat and is this just a steaming pile of crap or can I.
• 22:53
  Natasha Rai: Because you know, like it might be, I'm sure it, well, I'm not sure, but I imagine this happens to you, but you know, when you're writing like an early draft or even any draft and in your head you have a vision and you have like an idea of what it would sound like, what it might look like, and then you read it and you're like, Ugh, this doesn't sound like anything.
• 23:11
  Natasha Rai: That's my head.
• 23:11
  Natasha Rai: The hardest heart
• 23:12
  Madeleine Cleary: always.
• 23:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 23:14
  Madeleine Cleary: I, I, my mindset changes when I'm writing new words, like this current manuscript I'm writing, which is actually.
• 23:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Book three.
• 23:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, now, um, and.
• 23:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Within the hour, I go from thinking this is a pile of stinking poop and no one's going to like this, and this is really shit to, oh, this is actually quite good.
• 23:35
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm enjoying this.
• 23:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, I think there's something here.
• 23:37
  Madeleine Cleary: And that, that just flips like every five to 10 minutes.
• 23:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, and it's.
• 23:41
  Madeleine Cleary: It's really bizarre, isn't it?
• 23:43
  Natasha Rai: Oh, I'm so glad you said that.
• 23:45
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I have that all the time and I thought I was like somehow developing like multiple personalities.
• 23:51
  Natasha Rai: It's
• 23:51
  Tina Strachan: not No, me too.
• 23:52
  Tina Strachan: Let, let's just, let's just think, say that that's a normal thing then, and we should all just accept that.
• 23:57
  Tina Strachan: And I do, and we, we do learn from that as well.
• 24:00
  Tina Strachan: And I think that's the, that's the.
• 24:02
  Tina Strachan: Beauty of it, I guess, and I guess for all new writers out there, just accept it as part of the process.
• 24:07
  Tina Strachan: It's a hundred percent just your natural thought process for some reason.
• 24:12
  Tina Strachan: Uh, we do it to ourselves, but yeah, so now when it does happen to me, I, I still question it and I go, this is a stink P poo.
• 24:18
  Tina Strachan: And it's like, or I just, uh, I just can't see it in.
• 24:23
  Tina Strachan: You know, with fresh eyes and, and someone else who's reading it probably doesn't see this, but yeah.
• 24:28
  Tina Strachan: Is it a pile of poo or do I just need a minute to, to get back to it and may maybe don't take it so seriously now.
• 24:35
  Natasha Rai: And do you think like when you go from that swing from maybe this is a pile of poo to this is actually okay, oh, I'm really enjoying this.
• 24:42
  Natasha Rai: Do you think it's because we are genuinely, like maybe we've written a couple of sentences or a paragraph of.
• 24:47
  Natasha Rai: Seen, but there's just some beautiful little gold strands in there that we are like, yes, here's the evidence that it's something good.
• 24:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 24:55
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think something connects and you sort of, it's when you don't really know what's happening.
• 25:01
  Madeleine Cleary: I mean, for me that's a normal'cause I'm a pants, I don't really know what's going on.
• 25:04
  Madeleine Cleary: I don't really know what this book is.
• 25:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 25:06
  Madeleine Cleary: But then something happens and.
• 25:09
  Madeleine Cleary: You start, it's like an unraveling.
• 25:10
  Madeleine Cleary: You're like, oh, maybe this is what this book is actually about.
• 25:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 25:14
  Madeleine Cleary: And you get that tingle realization.
• 25:16
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I'm getting it now.
• 25:17
  Natasha Rai: Just hearing you say that.
• 25:18
  Madeleine Cleary: But then it becomes a piece of poo in the next chapter.
• 25:21
  Madeleine Cleary: So you know what though?
• 25:22
  Madeleine Cleary: I'd actually be concerned if I was writing new words and the whole time I'm thinking.
• 25:26
  Madeleine Cleary: God, this is great.
• 25:28
  Tina Strachan: I'm so good.
• 25:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Amazing.
• 25:30
  Madeleine Cleary: Like this is the best.
• 25:31
  Madeleine Cleary: That's a red
• 25:31
  Tina Strachan: flag.
• 25:32
  Madeleine Cleary: That's a red flag.
• 25:33
  Natasha Rai: Does anyone think that?
• 25:34
  Madeleine Cleary: I dunno.
• 25:36
  Tina Strachan: They may, but I dunno if they've had much published because it's gotta be okay.
• 25:40
  Tina Strachan: It's gotta be weird.
• 25:41
  Natasha Rai: So here's my next question, both of you.
• 25:43
  Natasha Rai: So given that this is kind of.
• 25:45
  Natasha Rai: All in the mix when you're writing the next thing or the new thing.
• 25:49
  Natasha Rai: How do you think your, and I know Tina, yours is really new, but how do you think a change of routine,'cause we've, all three of us had changes since we've written our first books in our routines and time.
• 26:00
  Natasha Rai: How do you think that impacts either how you feel about the book or your creativity or your um, productivity?
• 26:09
  Madeleine Cleary: So when I wrote The Butterfly Women, I was working overseas in a really intense job, um, five days a week, full-time.
• 26:17
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 26:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Uptime six days.
• 26:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so writing in the cracks was, yeah.
• 26:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Very much what I had to do.
• 26:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Kind of similar to what Tina and yourself, Tash were saying.
• 26:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so it was early mornings.
• 26:28
  Madeleine Cleary: It was, you know, late, late in the evening.
• 26:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and that took me about, it took me about 10 months to write the first draft for that.
• 26:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, which doesn't sound that long, but for me, that's actually quite a long time to, to write a book.
• 26:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Then, um, when I got the contract, I wrote this other novel, contemporary novel, um, in like two months, and I actually gave myself time to take leave from work'cause I got the contract.
• 26:54
  Madeleine Cleary: So I used my advance.
• 26:56
  Madeleine Cleary: To take two weeks to just be a full-time writer.
• 26:59
  Madeleine Cleary: And I actually, um, I was really highly productive in that time.
• 27:03
  Madeleine Cleary: I don't know if I could sustain that though.
• 27:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, I don't think I could, you know, I was writing, I, I went back to my diary about it and I was writing like 7,000 words over three days or something and just like absolutely smashing it.
• 27:16
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think that that's probably, yeah, not gonna work for every, everybody.
• 27:20
  Madeleine Cleary: And it probably was a little bit tricky.
• 27:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Then last year I wrote, um.
• 27:25
  Madeleine Cleary: The book two for my historical series.
• 27:29
  Madeleine Cleary: And again, that happened really quickly, but I felt like I had more time because I, um, took a day off work and, um, work was not as intense, I suppose, as being overseas.
• 27:41
  Madeleine Cleary: And that felt also different.
• 27:42
  Madeleine Cleary: And, and now I'm writing.
• 27:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Third historical book and it's a lot slower.
• 27:48
  Madeleine Cleary: And it is, it's gonna be more like the Butterfly Women.
• 27:50
  Madeleine Cleary: I think.
• 27:51
  Madeleine Cleary: My life isn't that crazy, like I'm, you know, I work four days a week, but I've got time, I've got way more time than I did with Butterfly.
• 27:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but I think this book actually needs.
• 28:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, a longer time.
• 28:04
  Madeleine Cleary: So it's probably gonna take me six to nine months to get this draft down.
• 28:07
  Madeleine Cleary: It can't go fast.
• 28:09
  Madeleine Cleary: So I think you've gotta listen to the book maybe, and to develop a routine around it.
• 28:13
  Madeleine Cleary: I don't think there's gonna be ever a routine that's gonna suit me for every single book.
• 28:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Like it's not gonna be a generic routine, it's just about finding it.
• 28:21
  Madeleine Cleary: So I've done away with word counts for this book, um,'cause I don't wanna feel guilty.
• 28:26
  Madeleine Cleary: About it.
• 28:27
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm, uh, if I feel that reluctance to sit to, to dive into the manuscript, I push past that.
• 28:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Like that's a big routine thing for me.
• 28:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, I wanna try and do something every single day with it, even if it's just 10 words.
• 28:40
  Madeleine Cleary: So that's part of, that's always been part of my routine and I think it's important.
• 28:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and I also know that I'm gonna have to take breaks from this book, um, because I'm about to go into structural edits with the butterfly, butterfly women with book two historical.
• 28:54
  Madeleine Cleary: So I know that there's gonna be big.
• 28:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Gaps between this book, and I just have to accept that.
• 28:59
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 29:00
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 29:01
  Natasha Rai: I really, really like that idea of listening to the book.
• 29:03
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 29:05
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I agree.
• 29:06
  Tina Strachan: Some books just flow, and regardless of what your routine looks like or what your pressures are in your day, some books just flow out of you and some just need to be pulled out a little bit more and tugged out a little bit more and thought about, and I think that's exciting.
• 29:19
  Tina Strachan: I agree.
• 29:20
  Tina Strachan: I think every, every manuscript that I write is.
• 29:23
  Tina Strachan: It comes differently.
• 29:24
  Tina Strachan: You know, some, some is.
• 29:26
  Tina Strachan: You know, completely pantsing for most of it.
• 29:29
  Tina Strachan: And then others is, it'll, it's all just there in my mind anyway, so I kind of just, I know.
• 29:35
  Tina Strachan: And so, you know, I can, I can like dump it onto a page and somewhat plot it out'cause it's already all there.
• 29:40
  Tina Strachan: Um, but I think that's exciting.
• 29:42
  Tina Strachan: And I think, yeah, I think that the take homes from that is like more time could lead to less productivity potentially.
• 29:50
  Tina Strachan: Um, it, it just depends and just, I guess reigning that in.
• 29:54
  Tina Strachan: 'cause I know some afternoons I'll just.
• 29:56
  Tina Strachan: Try and push through, but I'm, I'm literally just staring at the screen for three hours and I'm like, oh, well I could have, I actually should have just, I should have put it away and completely done something else.
• 30:06
  Tina Strachan: Um, and I think, yeah, I think don't force it
• 30:09
  Madeleine Cleary: is, yeah,
• 30:10
  Tina Strachan: is the thing.
• 30:11
  Tina Strachan: Don't think I must, I've got three hours.
• 30:13
  Tina Strachan: I must write for three hours.
• 30:14
  Tina Strachan: Because thinking about it is product.
• 30:17
  Tina Strachan: You know, thinking about the story and the world and everything is actually progressing.
• 30:22
  Tina Strachan: It, it doesn't have to be words on the page.
• 30:24
  Tina Strachan: Um, and certainly not, you know, every, and the other thing is everybody has their own routine and their own method.
• 30:30
  Tina Strachan: And I think especially when you're starting out, you, you're thinking there must be some right way to do this, or there must be some rules.
• 30:36
  Tina Strachan: And I think there's not, there's no right or wrong way, and you certainly can't.
• 30:40
  Tina Strachan: You know, try and copy someone else because it might not be for you.
• 30:43
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 30:44
  Natasha Rai: So, yeah, and I also think like, you know what we've all described about where we have snatches of time, like, because you know that you can make the most of it.
• 30:54
  Natasha Rai: But then when you take that mentality, like, you know, even Mads, when you said you had two weeks off.
• 30:59
  Natasha Rai: Um, you took some leave.
• 31:00
  Natasha Rai: You, you always knew that it was finite.
• 31:03
  Natasha Rai: Whereas when you, when you shift your work schedule into, say, working like nine to five type thing, fewer days, and you have a dedicated day, I think there's needs to be, there's always a period of adjustment where you have to, where not have to, where you start to go, oh, I don't have to sit and hammer something out for, you know, as you said, 10, about eight hours or whatever.
• 31:24
  Natasha Rai: I have this stretch of time.
• 31:27
  Natasha Rai: For as long as I need it.
• 31:28
  Natasha Rai: And then something shifts inside and, and you start to trust it.
• 31:32
  Natasha Rai: And it's not like, oh my God, quick, if I don't have it now, it's gone.
• 31:35
  Natasha Rai: Maybe.
• 31:36
  Natasha Rai: Well,
• 31:36
  Madeleine Cleary: and I think too that you, if you're starting to feel guilty,'cause you've got say, like you said, Tina, three hours in an afternoon and so you feel you, you probably wanna be able to sit down with a book.
• 31:47
  Madeleine Cleary: And dive into something else in a new world.
• 31:50
  Madeleine Cleary: But instead you feel, no, no, no, I need to do this.
• 31:53
  Madeleine Cleary: This is my job.
• 31:54
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm gonna have to sit down and do this.
• 31:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And you don't produce that much and then you feel guilty.
• 31:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 31:59
  Madeleine Cleary: And that's an awful feeling.
• 32:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 32:01
  Tina Strachan: I know.
• 32:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Like you don't wanna feel, you wanna feel nourished, I think.
• 32:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Not guilt.
• 32:06
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 32:06
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 32:07
  Tina Strachan: I mean, even in our last conversation we were like, what are our sort of goals for this year?
• 32:11
  Tina Strachan: And I believe I said rest, and I was like, I'm gonna try and fit rest into every day.
• 32:16
  Tina Strachan: And have I done that?
• 32:17
  Tina Strachan: No, not really.
• 32:18
  Tina Strachan: Um, but, but that's so important and it's a priority.
• 32:22
  Tina Strachan: And it is that, you know, whole thing, I, we probably bring it up or I, I do in most of our, um, chats, you know, that whole thing of, um, you know, if, if you're busy that saying, you know.
• 32:36
  Tina Strachan: Everyone should meditate for an hour, but if you're super busy, you should meditate for two.
• 32:40
  Tina Strachan: And it seems counterproductive, but it's not because it's basically just saying if you take that time and you reenergize yourself and you refresh yourself, you're more product productive in that shorter period of time.
• 32:52
  Tina Strachan: Then if you're trying to spread it out over those longer periods, um, it sounds counterproductive, but I totally agree with that and need to listen to my own advice.
• 33:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Will you do that, Tina?
• 33:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 33:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Asha.
• 33:02
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm interested in your routine because, you know, if you think about when you were writing Onslaught to now, like you had, so obviously in C you had a corporate job writing onslaught, but now you've got, you've got that portfolio career, you've got multiple different hats that you wear.
• 33:18
  Madeleine Cleary: How has your routine changed?
• 33:20
  Natasha Rai: Uh, so okay, so I know that I am.
• 33:24
  Natasha Rai: In terms of my own work, I'm better in the mornings.
• 33:26
  Natasha Rai: So after like lunchtime, I, I, I, unless I'm on a deadline or I'm, like you said, Tina doing edits or something, I, I can't really do creative flow or something's really grabbed me.
• 33:37
  Natasha Rai: Like last year I started something new and I could find, I was writing.
• 33:40
  Natasha Rai: Anytime all the time.
• 33:41
  Natasha Rai: Anyway.
• 33:42
  Natasha Rai: So usually that's the book that's
• 33:43
  Tina Strachan: listening to
• 33:44
  Natasha Rai: the book, isn't it?
• 33:44
  Natasha Rai: That's the book.
• 33:45
  Natasha Rai: Yes, exactly.
• 33:45
  Natasha Rai: That's, listen to the book.
• 33:46
  Natasha Rai: I'm use that as a little slogan from now on, I'm listening to the book.
• 33:50
  Natasha Rai: Um, so I've now switched off Instagram.
• 33:53
  Natasha Rai: I've logged out of it on my laptop and I disabled it on my phone from Friday to Monday.
• 33:59
  Natasha Rai: So, so I've been That makes sense.
• 34:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 34:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Great.
• 34:02
  Natasha Rai: The last couple of days I've been noticing, I've been like, I just quickly enable and open and I'm like, nah, gotta stop such a rain.
• 34:08
  Natasha Rai: It's so, such a, yeah.
• 34:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Why does your brain, is it just a habit do you think?
• 34:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Is
• 34:14
  Natasha Rai: that, yeah, it's just because sometimes if I get up really early'cause I can't sleep, and I'm like, well actually technically I'm still asleep, so I, this is like free time, so I can just quickly check Again, total opposite
• 34:27
  Tina Strachan: to sleep.
• 34:28
  Tina Strachan: I
• 34:28
  Natasha Rai: know, I know these stupid leaps that my brain does, like just do that and it doesn't count and I'm like.
• 34:33
  Natasha Rai: It's free.
• 34:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Does change though.
• 34:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Your brain will change.
• 34:36
  Madeleine Cleary: I found when I was off Instagram for two months, sort of December, Jan, I wasn't thinking like that.
• 34:42
  Madeleine Cleary: I wasn't Yes.
• 34:43
  Madeleine Cleary: My brain.
• 34:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 34:43
  Madeleine Cleary: But then as soon as you,
• 34:45
  Natasha Rai: I know it's from dopamine hit.
• 34:46
  Natasha Rai: Yeah,
• 34:47
  Tina Strachan: it's the do.
• 34:47
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 34:47
  Tina Strachan: Look, we are all human and I know that's what we're programmed to do.
• 34:51
  Tina Strachan: Dopamine.
• 34:52
  Tina Strachan: And you know, like the Amy Kaufman episode earlier, this, the, this year, she, and she said it to us before, she's like, I can't compete with the thousands and thousands of, you know, um.
• 35:04
  Tina Strachan: Scientists and neuroscientists that have helped Instagram and all other social media program and create this beast that that actually does trap us and a us Yes.
• 35:15
  Tina Strachan: Sucks us in.
• 35:15
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 35:16
  Tina Strachan: Sucks us in with the stupidest little bits and pieces like, oh, I got a little.
• 35:20
  Tina Strachan: A little heart up there.
• 35:21
  Tina Strachan: Someone's like, my photo, you know, we, that we, that's we're not silly for doing that.
• 35:26
  Tina Strachan: Like that's exactly their plan.
• 35:29
  Tina Strachan: And she's like, I can't compete with that.
• 35:31
  Tina Strachan: No one can compete with that.
• 35:32
  Tina Strachan: So she just, um, has a program that shuts it off.
• 35:35
  Tina Strachan: Mom, she has that one hour day.
• 35:37
  Madeleine Cleary: I also downloaded that program after she gave that advice and I kept disabling the program.
• 35:43
  Tina Strachan: Well, that's the thing.
• 35:45
  Tina Strachan: That's the thing.
• 35:46
  Tina Strachan: See, and that's not your fault.
• 35:48
  Tina Strachan: It is literally doing that to your brain.
• 35:50
  Tina Strachan: I know.
• 35:51
  Tina Strachan: I do have the program.
• 35:52
  Tina Strachan: I've just got the free one though.
• 35:53
  Tina Strachan: And so sometimes I get really annoyed at myself.
• 35:56
  Tina Strachan: And um, so with the free one, so it's called Freedom, the program with the free one you can.
• 36:01
  Tina Strachan: So I can't program it to shut down every day unless I pay for it.
• 36:05
  Tina Strachan: But the free one will let you just shut everything down for like two hours or something like that.
• 36:09
  Tina Strachan: And so if I catch myself and I'm like, oh, this is ridiculous.
• 36:12
  Tina Strachan: I'm on it again.
• 36:13
  Tina Strachan: I can just turn that on and it, but you can override it.
• 36:15
  Tina Strachan: You really
• 36:16
  Madeleine Cleary: can.
• 36:16
  Madeleine Cleary: You can.
• 36:16
  Madeleine Cleary: And I kept ignoring it and then feeling bad and guilty every time I was ignoring it.
• 36:20
  Madeleine Cleary: And I was like, oh no, I'm just gonna delete the app.
• 36:23
  Madeleine Cleary: And then the act of having to reinstall an app.
• 36:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Is enough of a, a barrier?
• 36:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh,
• 36:28
  Tina Strachan: yes.
• 36:28
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 36:29
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 36:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Then having just to, you know, click a button to say disable, I think.
• 36:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 36:33
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 36:33
  Tina Strachan: I actually thought about getting a, um, non-smart phone.
• 36:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 36:37
  Tina Strachan: Like just going old school.
• 36:38
  Tina Strachan: 'cause I
• 36:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Have you heard of Brick as well?
• 36:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Like there's, I have
• 36:40
  Tina Strachan: seen that
• 36:41
  Madeleine Cleary: this big brick where it just turns your phone into like a dumb phone.
• 36:43
  Tina Strachan: A dumb phone.
• 36:44
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 36:44
  Tina Strachan: And
• 36:44
  Madeleine Cleary: it's very
• 36:45
  Tina Strachan: physical.
• 36:46
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 36:46
  Tina Strachan: I mean you could just take everything off and then it's a dumb phone.
• 36:48
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 36:49
  Tina Strachan: But it's kind of not like it.
• 36:50
  Tina Strachan: They make it very tricky for you.
• 36:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 36:52
  Tina Strachan: But I think of all the things that I'll need, like what if I'm out and about and I have a question?
• 36:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 36:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Or password.
• 36:56
  Madeleine Cleary: How do I find
• 36:57
  Tina Strachan: the answer?
• 36:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Apple Pay Google Maps.
• 36:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 36:59
  Madeleine Cleary: These are like practical things that's
• 37:01
  Tina Strachan: carrying.
• 37:02
  Tina Strachan: I know they've really sucked us in anyway, but when it comes to Instagram, yes.
• 37:07
  Tina Strachan: You did have a really good, um, technique though, Madeleine, a little while ago, didn't you?
• 37:11
  Tina Strachan: Where you, where, wasn't it your husband had the passcode or he had to do, he was, was two factor authentication.
• 37:17
  Madeleine Cleary: This was when I was writing book two last year.
• 37:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, the historical book two.
• 37:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I should come up with a name for it anyway.
• 37:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, yeah.
• 37:25
  Madeleine Cleary: And I couldn't be creative while also on Instagram, so I just gave Pat.
• 37:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 37:31
  Madeleine Cleary: And then he could check and he could let me know if there's anything.
• 37:34
  Madeleine Cleary: And it was so good.
• 37:35
  Madeleine Cleary: I would highly recommend that.
• 37:36
  Madeleine Cleary: But I asked him again this time.
• 37:38
  Madeleine Cleary: He's like, I can't.
• 37:40
  Madeleine Cleary: He's like, please man, learn.
• 37:42
  Madeleine Cleary: I don't wanna do that again.
• 37:43
  Tina Strachan: I'm not your pa.
• 37:45
  Madeleine Cleary: It was a lot of responsibility.
• 37:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Did I, I tell him, he used to comment on random things and I'd like, he'd show me the comment, like, why did you write that?
• 37:53
  Madeleine Cleary: And then I'd edit it and anyway.
• 37:58
  Madeleine Cleary: You were, you were talking Tash.
• 38:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Sorry, we, I interrupted you, I think.
• 38:02
  Natasha Rai: No, no, no, no.
• 38:02
  Natasha Rai: It's, I was just on my, so anyway, I've disabled that and it's working most of the time.
• 38:07
  Natasha Rai: Um, so Mondays is my kind of writing day.
• 38:10
  Natasha Rai: So I try and write first thing in the morning, and I find that sometimes my brain will go, but don't forget, you need to do the, you know, your substack, or don't forget, you need to get back to that person.
• 38:19
  Natasha Rai: I'm like, no.
• 38:20
  Natasha Rai: No.
• 38:20
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 38:21
  Natasha Rai: So first thing in the morning, usually till about midday or one I can write.
• 38:26
  Natasha Rai: Um, and it's pretty good.
• 38:29
  Natasha Rai: Like I, I just get up for breaks, like to make a cup of tea or whatever, but it's nothing.
• 38:34
  Natasha Rai: I can do that now.
• 38:36
  Natasha Rai: And then the afternoon I usually read, so at the moment I'm reading a few manuscripts for different writers.
• 38:40
  Natasha Rai: So that's when I do that reading and, and then I do the time boxing where I put in like all the things I need to do in the afternoons.
• 38:47
  Natasha Rai: And then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday is a, Tuesday is a blended day of counseling admin and writing admin.
• 38:54
  Natasha Rai: And plus my writing block in the morning, Wednesday and Thursday are full counseling days, so I don't write at all.
• 38:59
  Natasha Rai: Um, and then Friday I have.
• 39:02
  Natasha Rai: Again, writing block in the morning and then whatever in the afternoon.
• 39:05
  Natasha Rai: And now, because I'm doing a few shifts at roaring stories, um, so if if that that happens then, then I just do the admin in the afternoon afterwards.
• 39:16
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 39:16
  Madeleine Cleary: You are the epitome of a portfolio career lady.
• 39:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 39:20
  Madeleine Cleary: That's amazing.
• 39:22
  Natasha Rai: I really enjoy it.
• 39:23
  Natasha Rai: I never thought I'd enjoy it so much.
• 39:24
  Natasha Rai: It's
• 39:25
  Madeleine Cleary: cool.
• 39:25
  Natasha Rai: And again, it's like this kind of thing, you know, but it's, it's the same thinking around like writing a book Many years ago, I'd, I'd met people who had this kinda life and I'd be like, that sounds so cool, but I could never do it.
• 39:37
  Natasha Rai: And then you do it and you're like, of course you can.
• 39:39
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 39:40
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 39:40
  Tina Strachan: Do we have an,
• 39:41
  Madeleine Cleary: oh no, you go Tina.
• 39:43
  Tina Strachan: No, I was just gonna say, we have an episode on portfolio careers, don't we, Madeleine, for those who haven't heard that or know what that is, but, um, it does sound fantastic.
• 39:52
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 39:52
  Tina Strachan: Tash and Yeah, so it's, it's about.
• 39:55
  Tina Strachan: Sort of doing, not just aiming to get your, I guess, your income all paid from one particular, uh, source, which is very hard, especially if you want that source to be your books.
• 40:06
  Tina Strachan: Um, but it's, you know, finding the other roles that you have joy in, especially if you want it to be writing, finding things that are.
• 40:13
  Tina Strachan: Align with writing, perhaps.
• 40:15
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 40:15
  Tina Strachan: Um, but you have your other passion, Tash, which is counseling.
• 40:20
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 40:20
  Natasha Rai: So at the moment, my therapeutic work is my main income.
• 40:25
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 40:25
  Natasha Rai: Like I can't even, I don't even.
• 40:29
  Natasha Rai: Firstly, I don't earn, you know, not even close to a livable wage from books stuff or related.
• 40:34
  Natasha Rai: So I have just discounted that and any money that comes through that I use for things like training for counseling or professional development for counseling or whatever, you know, bills.
• 40:45
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 40:46
  Natasha Rai: So.
• 40:47
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 40:47
  Tina Strachan: But then working at Roaring Stories.
• 40:49
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 40:50
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 40:50
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 40:50
  Tina Strachan: Is a nice little
• 40:52
  Natasha Rai: addition, isn't it?
• 40:52
  Natasha Rai: Oh, I love it.
• 40:53
  Natasha Rai: Especially just getting to see all the titles coming in.
• 40:56
  Natasha Rai: Um, like yesterday it was so cool yesterday on my shift, I got to input all the orders that they've already made with the reps, um, into the system so that the label's ready to go, just to see.
• 41:08
  Natasha Rai: And it was.
• 41:09
  Natasha Rai: Fascinating to me to see how this particular bookshop of what they're buying
• 41:14
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 41:15
  Natasha Rai: Like titles.
• 41:16
  Natasha Rai: And I was like, wow.
• 41:17
  Natasha Rai: Like, you know, 25 copies of this crime thriller that's coming out, um, by a established author and, and, you know, but one copy of this cookbook.
• 41:28
  Natasha Rai: Just stuff like that that I was like, how, like I'm just really getting a sense of a, the type of readers that that must come into the shop and also like the type of, mm-hmm.
• 41:36
  Natasha Rai: Offer that they are making to, to people.
• 41:39
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 41:39
  Natasha Rai: So, oh, so it's so interesting.
• 41:41
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 41:42
  Tina Strachan: And it's all really thought out, isn't it?
• 41:43
  Tina Strachan: What, how they, how they make these decisions.
• 41:46
  Tina Strachan: And we also have an episode where, uh, we chat to, uh, a bookseller too.
• 41:50
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 41:50
  Tina Strachan: Don't we, Madeleine?
• 41:51
  Tina Strachan: Um, that, um, we, yeah, it gives a good insight into behind the scenes of book selling as well.
• 42:00
  Tina Strachan: But you've got almost the whole package there, Tash.
• 42:02
  Tina Strachan: That's really exciting.
• 42:03
  Tina Strachan: I
• 42:03
  Natasha Rai: know.
• 42:03
  Natasha Rai: Now I just need to go get a job in like publishing.
• 42:08
  Madeleine Cleary: All the writing and things and of what you were saying too, Tash, about like earning a living from writing and everything.
• 42:15
  Madeleine Cleary: I think, um, it's still part of that portfolio career.
• 42:19
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause even if you don't get money associated with it, like a significant portion of money.
• 42:23
  Madeleine Cleary: True.
• 42:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Our writing career is, we're here for the long term, aren't we?
• 42:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 42:27
  Madeleine Cleary: All of us are investing our time
• 42:29
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 42:30
  Madeleine Cleary: And our own money as well into building this long.
• 42:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Career.
• 42:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, that's what we have.
• 42:36
  Madeleine Cleary: I
• 42:36
  Natasha Rai: know, and I really, I really, um, disagree when.
• 42:40
  Natasha Rai: But the thinking about if you're not getting paid for your work, it's not valuable.
• 42:45
  Natasha Rai: 'cause it's so valuable.
• 42:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
• 42:48
  Madeleine Cleary: So every time you say, you know, all of us do lots of things that are for free and unpaid, but, but that's, um, an investment in our career, isn't it?
• 42:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Every time you say yes to an opportunity, I, I, at least I find like if I say yes to something, um, I will end up.
• 43:06
  Madeleine Cleary: With a connection from that event, or, yes,
• 43:08
  Tina Strachan: 100%
• 43:09
  Madeleine Cleary: a fantastic experience with a conversation with the reader.
• 43:12
  Madeleine Cleary: And it just, you know, it really changes your perspective and it's all part of that, isn't it?
• 43:17
  Natasha Rai: And that's true for so many other careers too.
• 43:19
  Natasha Rai: Like when I was first training to be a therapist, I worked as a volunteer on a grief, um, service.
• 43:27
  Natasha Rai: And it wasn't paying, but it was so valuable for me and the people I was supporting and.
• 43:33
  Natasha Rai: It just gave me so much understanding and depth into something I was just going into.
• 43:38
  Natasha Rai: Just like when you, you know, now when we read other people's manuscripts or
• 43:41
  Tina Strachan: mm-hmm.
• 43:41
  Natasha Rai: When we have chats, all of that, all of that
• 43:44
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 43:44
  Natasha Rai: Matters.
• 43:45
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 43:45
  Tina Strachan: It's because we enjoy it and we find joy in it.
• 43:47
  Tina Strachan: And that might not be joyful for some people then, and then maybe, you know, that's not for them.
• 43:52
  Tina Strachan: But, uh, you know, I, it's almost when we're talking then I'm like, it's kind of like when you go to uni.
• 43:57
  Tina Strachan: And you spend, you know, three plus years at uni and how much did our degrees cost?
• 44:01
  Tina Strachan: Tens of thousands of dollars.
• 44:03
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 44:03
  Tina Strachan: Or um, you know, and there was, we weren't getting paid for anything then.
• 44:08
  Tina Strachan: No.
• 44:08
  Tina Strachan: I don't know about, uh, you ladies when you first get your first job, but I was getting paid rubbish.
• 44:13
  Tina Strachan: What, in my first job that was associated with my degree.
• 44:16
  Tina Strachan: And you kind of, you know, work your way up from there.
• 44:18
  Tina Strachan: But I did it because I.
• 44:20
  Tina Strachan: Thoroughly enjoyed it and I loved doing it, and no one had to pay me to be there and do it, but I, I did it and I volunteered all my time as well, all around the place to just get that experience and that knowledge, because it was, that was brought me joy as well.
• 44:35
  Natasha Rai: And, and if you make the link between, you know, earning money and value, then.
• 44:40
  Natasha Rai: I've thrown money down the drain.
• 44:41
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I don't even use my first degree that I did at uni.
• 44:44
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 44:44
  Natasha Rai: It's been a total, again, I'm gonna use air course that no one can see, but YouTube, but waste of money, which it wasn't'cause it gave me lots of life experience.
• 44:52
  Tina Strachan: Yeah,
• 44:52
  Madeleine Cleary: that's right.
• 44:52
  Madeleine Cleary: So you have to look at what, what.
• 44:54
  Madeleine Cleary: What value are you getting?
• 44:55
  Madeleine Cleary: How do you measure value when you, I mean, having said all this, I, I think writers can be paid better.
• 45:03
  Natasha Rai: Oh my God, yes.
• 45:04
  Natasha Rai: The arts in general can be yes.
• 45:07
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think also society though respects, um.
• 45:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Earnings and money and, and I think that's common why it's very common when people outside the industry talk to you about your book.
• 45:18
  Madeleine Cleary: And the first thing they ask is how your sales going?
• 45:21
  Madeleine Cleary: How's it going?
• 45:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 45:21
  Madeleine Cleary: That's the thing.
• 45:23
  Madeleine Cleary: But um, yeah, for all of us, I think this is a long-term thing, but I mean, there is also a privilege in that too, in that all of us can write, do all these things for free, invest our time and effort.
• 45:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but we've also got, you know, sure.
• 45:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Financial support, um, through other things.
• 45:42
  Madeleine Cleary: It might be that, you know, our own selves or partners or whatever is, um, yeah.
• 45:47
  Madeleine Cleary: And other streams of income, which is important.
• 45:50
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, true.
• 45:50
  Tina Strachan: And not just income, even just, you know, family support, you know, for, for people who have, um, you know, their family or their children or just.
• 45:59
  Tina Strachan: It doesn't afford them the time.
• 46:01
  Madeleine Cleary: That's right.
• 46:02
  Tina Strachan: Like we have got time and some people just don't have, have that time.
• 46:06
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah.
• 46:07
  Tina Strachan: So like a husband
• 46:08
  Madeleine Cleary: that does my social media, so,
• 46:10
  Tina Strachan: or the laundry that's, or the laundry does, uh, uh, yeah.
• 46:14
  Tina Strachan: So for those it can definitely be difficult.
• 46:16
  Tina Strachan: So just if, but Right.
• 46:17
  Tina Strachan: If writing's still your passion, then just find the joy.
• 46:19
  Tina Strachan: And if it's just getting the words on the piece of paper, then that's.
• 46:22
  Tina Strachan: Perfectly,
• 46:23
  Madeleine Cleary: and I'm gonna talk to Catherine Millen actually in an episode for March.
• 46:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and one of my questions to her is going to be around this, um, how, what, what does success look like?
• 46:34
  Madeleine Cleary: What does, um, what, what, what value, how, how do authors measure that?
• 46:41
  Madeleine Cleary: And, you know, is it, is it a purely a sales thing?
• 46:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Because I'm really interested in a publisher's perspective on that because they're really much the business.
• 46:50
  Madeleine Cleary: But I wanna, but Catherine Millen is someone who's very much involved in that heart of books as well.
• 46:55
  Madeleine Cleary: So I wanna know.
• 46:56
  Tina Strachan: Absolutely.
• 46:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 46:57
  Madeleine Cleary: What, what value, what, what's the value?
• 46:59
  Madeleine Cleary: That's a great
• 47:00
  Tina Strachan: question.
• 47:00
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 47:00
  Natasha Rai: That's such
• 47:01
  Tina Strachan: a good question.
• 47:01
  Tina Strachan: That a great question.
• 47:02
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 47:02
  Tina Strachan: And I'm so keen to hear what she has to say.
• 47:04
  Natasha Rai: Mm,
• 47:05
  Tina Strachan: yeah.
• 47:05
  Natasha Rai: Um, I'm also noticing that we are nearly outta time.
• 47:09
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I reckon I could talk to you for another hour easily.
• 47:12
  Natasha Rai: Um, but I really like where this conversation's gone.
• 47:14
  Natasha Rai: I, it's got me, yeah.
• 47:15
  Natasha Rai: Really thinking about value as well, and.
• 47:19
  Natasha Rai: I love, I love, I love so much about listening to the books.
• 47:22
  Natasha Rai: Thanks, man.
• 47:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, no worries.
• 47:26
  Tina Strachan: That's beautiful.
• 47:27
  Tina Strachan: Can I just add, we spoke about, uh, you mentioned Maggie Island, magnetic Island earlier.
• 47:31
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 47:32
  Tina Strachan: Which was incredible and yes, I'm very sad that I cannot apply for it again.
• 47:36
  Tina Strachan: Me
• 47:36
  Natasha Rai: too,
• 47:37
  Tina Strachan: this year.
• 47:39
  Tina Strachan: Um, Madeleine, you can, um, and so can everybody else who's listening it is open now.
• 47:44
  Tina Strachan: It is open now.
• 47:44
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 47:44
  Tina Strachan: Um, the applications for the Magnetic Island, uh, writers on the Reef.
• 47:48
  Tina Strachan: The Reef, amazing.
• 47:49
  Tina Strachan: We cannot recommend it more, uh, through James Cook University and the Rhetoric Center for Creative Writing and Literature.
• 47:58
  Tina Strachan: Did I get that?
• 47:58
  Tina Strachan: All right.
• 47:59
  Tina Strachan: Um, so have a little Google, um, check them out.
• 48:03
  Tina Strachan: Riders on the reef, honestly cannot recommend it more.
• 48:08
  Tina Strachan: Yes, it's a week on a tropical island
• 48:12
  Natasha Rai: paradise.
• 48:13
  Tina Strachan: So
• 48:13
  Natasha Rai: just me to write and it's even.
• 48:15
  Natasha Rai: More sup, like the support that's available for riders is, is, is um, is really wonderful this year because this year they're offering to pay for your flights and you get a stipend.
• 48:26
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 48:27
  Natasha Rai: So if you are struggling in terms of, you know, taking time off work or worrying about financial commitments, maybe, hopefully this could help make that decision to apply.
• 48:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 48:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Amazing.
• 48:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, I should apply, shouldn't I?
• 48:41
  Natasha Rai: You should.
• 48:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, but then if I, I would do it if I
• 48:44
  Tina Strachan: could.
• 48:45
  Tina Strachan: I thought about just taking myself off there every year.
• 48:47
  Tina Strachan: I know we made plans, didn't we?
• 48:48
  Tina Strachan: Natasha?
• 48:49
  Tina Strachan: We like we did.
• 48:49
  Tina Strachan: We just put money aside every week.
• 48:51
  Tina Strachan: We can actually do
• 48:52
  Natasha Rai: this.
• 48:52
  Natasha Rai: We, if we told everyone how much money they had to put aside, it wasn't even that much, was like$20 or something.
• 48:57
  Madeleine Cleary: We should plan a, um, book, deal, podcast retreat.
• 49:02
  Tina Strachan: I don't need any excuse, but
• 49:04
  Natasha Rai: I don't either.
• 49:05
  Natasha Rai: I mean, I'm already like, yes, let's do it.
• 49:06
  Natasha Rai: Where are we going?
• 49:07
  Madeleine Cleary: We could, we could run it for other people too.
• 49:09
  Madeleine Cleary: So if anyone's interested joining on a writer's retreat.
• 49:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Send us a message.
• 49:14
  Madeleine Cleary: We might, yes.
• 49:15
  Madeleine Cleary: A
• 49:15
  Tina Strachan: message.
• 49:16
  Madeleine Cleary: I really like let book things.
• 49:17
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm a very
• 49:18
  Natasha Rai: Me too.
• 49:20
  Natasha Rai: Me
• 49:20
  Madeleine Cleary: too.
• 49:21
  Tina Strachan: Oh, okay.
• 49:22
  Tina Strachan: And I like going to things that people have booked, so this is fantastic.
• 49:26
  Tina Strachan: Okay, so this is great.
• 49:28
  Tina Strachan: I love this idea.
• 49:29
  Tina Strachan: You Yes, definitely.
• 49:30
  Tina Strachan: Please message us if you would like to get in on our, the book deal.
• 49:34
  Tina Strachan: Um,
• 49:35
  Natasha Rai: run in
• 49:36
  Tina Strachan: retreats.
• 49:36
  Tina Strachan: Run retreat.
• 49:36
  Tina Strachan: Because the, the really cool thing is in some of these retreats.
• 49:39
  Tina Strachan: And I'm sure this is something that we could organize as well, is, um, you know, I've been on retreats before where we've had agents zoom in and you can submit work to agents and they can have like a 15 minute chat with an agent.
• 49:50
  Tina Strachan: Um, or publishers can call in all those sorts of things.
• 49:53
  Tina Strachan: Um,
• 49:54
  Madeleine Cleary: sure we can arrange that.
• 49:55
  Natasha Rai: I'll
• 49:55
  Tina Strachan: ask Catherine now.
• 49:56
  Natasha Rai: Sure.
• 49:57
  Tina Strachan: She might wanna come.
• 49:59
  Natasha Rai: Wow.
• 50:00
  Natasha Rai: This retreat is getting more and more sophisticated and by the second
• 50:06
  Tina Strachan: you must like cheese though.
• 50:08
  Tina Strachan: And chocolate.
• 50:08
  Natasha Rai: Oh yeah, cheese and chocolate.
• 50:09
  Natasha Rai: That's, that's, that's, of course, that's literally a prerequisite
• 50:12
  Madeleine Cleary: and wine at the end after a hard day of riding,
• 50:14
  Natasha Rai: the wine is fine, but cheese and chocolate have to must, must,
• 50:18
  must.
• 50:18
  Madeleine Cleary: All
• 50:18
  Natasha Rai: right.
• 50:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Sounds
• 50:19
  Natasha Rai: good.
• 50:19
  Natasha Rai: Well, thank you ladies.
• 50:20
  Natasha Rai: And as per usual, no, uh, book deal episode would be complete without a bit of toilet.
• 50:26
  Natasha Rai: References, which we had today.
• 50:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Alright.
• 50:28
  Natasha Rai: Finding piles of poo, I think is the thing.
• 50:31
  Natasha Rai: So thank you very much for that.
• 50:33
  Madeleine Cleary: So is that our top tip then?
• 50:35
  Natasha Rai: Um, keep going.
• 50:37
  Natasha Rai: Even if it's a finding pile of poo that
• 50:38
  Madeleine Cleary: embrace the poo
• 50:39
  Natasha Rai: Embrace, embrace the, embrace the poo.
• 50:41
  Natasha Rai: Oh, okay.
• 50:42
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 50:42
  Natasha Rai: I, we, okay.
• 50:43
  Natasha Rai: Ascend on that.
• 50:44
  Natasha Rai: Embrace the poo.
• 50:51
  Speaker: Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
• 50:53
  Speaker: We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons.
• 50:58
  Speaker: Join the TPD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community@patreon.com slash the book deal podcast.
• 51:07
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• 51:11
  Speaker: And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.