Latest / NO FILTER / Dad charged with torture after hike leaves kids in hospital_ Luigi Mangione seeks evidence exclusion(MP3_160K)

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Dad charged with torture after hike leaves kids in hospital_ Luigi Mangione seeks evidence exclusion(MP3_160K) · NO FILTER

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Sidebar presented by True Crime News,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: taking you inside the courtrooms of high profile and notorious
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: cases from across the country.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Defense lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously an LA
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: County prosecutor for nearly a decade. You can find me
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: on all social platforms at Joshua Ritter e sq or
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: at Joshua Ritter dot com. We are recording this on Wednesday,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: December third, twenty twenty five, and this week's episode, alleged
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: assassin Luigi Mangioni is back in court as his defense
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: seeks to exclude key pieces of evidence ahead of trial.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Plus a father charge with torture and child abuse after
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: he and his three children went missing on a perilous hike.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: But first, a man charged with his wife's murder attempts
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: to convince a jury that he didn't kill her the
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: he admittedly disposed of her body and misled police. Today
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: we are joined by Marie Pereira, a attorney a legal
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: analyst that you can catch on cour TV, NBC, Fox,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: and many other outlets.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Marie, welcome back. It's so good to see you. How
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: are you.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: I'm great, Thank you for having me. I love being
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: on with you.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Oh you're so fantastic.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Before we started recording, we were talking about how this
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem like work. I mean, we enjoy talking about
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: these cases so much, and it's so nice to chat
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: with you.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: So I appreciate you being here.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: These are some good ones this week too, So let's
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: go ahead and just jump right in. The first is
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: out of Dedham, Massachusetts, were defense attorneys for a man
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: accused of killing his wife face a tall order after
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: the man admitted to lying to police and disposing of
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: the missing woman's body while denying causing her death. Brian
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Walsh is facing trial for the slaying of Anna Walsh,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: with prosecutors claiming the man murdered the woman and disposed
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: of her remains as their tumultuous relationship was falling apart.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Walsh with was the sole beneficiary of Anna's two point
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: seven million dollar life insurance policy and had allegedly learned
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: that his wife was having an affair before her disappearance.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: While prosecutors maintained that Walsh's motive is clear, his defense
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: alleges that things are not as simple as they appear.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Walsh claims that Anna died a sudden and unexplained death,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: and that the man reacted with panic and fear, hoping
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: to protect his children from the horror of her death.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: This unnatural reaction allegedly caused Walsh to google quote best
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: ways to dispose of a body and special detergents to
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: get away with murder, but the defense maintains the research
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: doesn't prove a desire to kill Anna, whose remains have
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: still not been found. Complicating this case further is the
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: presence of State Trooper Michael Procter, a key investigator in
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Anna's disappearance. It remains to be seen if the disgraced
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: trooper's presence will loom as large as it did in
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Karen Read's two trials, But ultimately it will be up
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: to the jury to determine how Anna met her untimely
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: end and if Walsh was responsible. All right, red a
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: lot to unravel with this one. But first, a lot
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: of us were waiting around to hear this defense opening statement,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: to hear what their strategy was going to be. How
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: are they going to explain that Anna died? What do
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: you make of this? This kind of idea that they
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: don't have an explanation. He says that he went to
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: go to bed, she was lying in bed and dead,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: and that's all he knows. Do you think that's a
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: winning strategy.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: No, it's not.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: It's what I called an NTL strategy.
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: Nothing to lose was at the end of the day,
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: the Google searches did him end? So you know, yesterday
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: I was thinking, how does a criminal defense attorney with
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: as much experience as his attorneys have let a client
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: convince them to go with that after seeing all.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: Of the Google texts and searches.
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: Right and knowing the background of the alleged affair, I understand.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: You know, you have to defend your client with tenacity
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: and everything you got, but you also have to make
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: it make sense in the level of audacity they have
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: after all of those Google searches to try to say
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: he only did the searches because he panicked and he
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: knew they would blame him. But the searches discuss murder.
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: That's the problem. It didn't say how to revive someone
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: who went upstairs a few minutes ago while I was
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: doing the dishes and we had a nice party, and
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: she stopped breathing. How do I do CPR on my wife?
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: Call nine one one, all of that, it's problematic. These
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: are terrible facts. I would have never chosen that type
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: of defense. I would have gone with passion. Heat of passion,
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: That's why I would have done that is ridiculous.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised by that too, that you would have thought
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: they gave up so much. Already, they're already going to
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: say he lied. They're already going to say he disposed
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: of her body, and why not just say, hey, this
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: was a horrific accident that took place in the midst
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: of some horrible argument we were having. But this idea
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: of you know, I don't know how she died, and
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: she just ended up dead, and my first things think
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: was just to get rid of her body. You know,
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: there's a lot I think that jurors might be able
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: to wrap their heads around. But this is stretching the
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: extent of I think what you can get jurors to believe.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering, though, what if I mean, what if there's
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: a situation where that's just simply what he's telling his
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: attorneys and that's what they're stuck with. If that's what
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: their client's story is, they're going to put him on
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: the stand, don't you think.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: I think they have.
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: To put him on the stand so that he can
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: explain what happened. But I think the mountain of evidence
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: against him is so humongous now they really it is
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: an NTL type defense. What do you have to lose?
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: They may not be offering you a plea. If you
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: plead guilty to the charge, you're facing life in prison
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: without a possibility of parole. So why not just roll
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: a dice and hope that maybe somebody on the jury
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: was cheated on and somebody could empathize with you, and
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: you make the victim look like a villain, which is
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: what they're trying to do here. This poor man is,
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: according to them, home taking care of three little boys.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: He trusts his wife.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: To go earn the money because something happened in his
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: career that made his money earning capacity diminish. Right, and
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: he's doing the right thing. And while she's over there
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: in Washington, she finds herself a guy she missed. Now
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: Christmas Eve, evidence I think is going to show that
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: she was in Italy with her new man.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: Make her look like a real bitch.
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: Maybe the jury will just set aside and nullify the
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: law and put aside all of the evidence and feel
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: sorry for him.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: Is it likely they're going to do that?
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: No, because you have three children who are without a mother,
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: and now they're going to be without a father.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: That's such the sad part of all these caces that
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: we talk about when it's a husband and wife is
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: that now you've got these kids who are going to
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: live their whole lives with one parent in prison the
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: other parent dead. Well, le's let's let's try as defense
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: attorneys to figure out if this is the cards they
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: were dealt right, The facts are the facts. Their client
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: is saying.
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  Speaker 2: This is what took place.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: What do you think and you made the point yourselves
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: that some jurors, maybe one or two, and that's all.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: You need to hang this exactly.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: What do you think is what does he need to
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: do during his testimony to convince one or two of
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: those jurors. What would you be expecting or what would
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: you be trying to tell him if he was your client.
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: To really convince the jurors that he loved his wife,
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: and to go with the possibility that he didn't know
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: about the affair, so that kills the motive and it
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: diminishes any malice attached to it or premeditation.
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: I didn't know she was having.
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: An affair, so I had no reason to want to
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: kill her. She didn't tell me she was having an affair.
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: I didn't know that she spent New Year's Eve with
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: a new man. I found this out after the fact,
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: So for anyone to think that I murdered my wife
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: as my children might have been sleeping, and then called
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: on nanny the next day, went out to get tools
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: to dismember her, and this was all a plan. It wasn't.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: I lost it. I had terrible judgment. I was afraid
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: that if they connected me with it, the boys would
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: lose me. And I disposed of her body and I
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: shouldn't have. So he needs to tug on their heartstrings
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: and really make them believe there was no knowledge of
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: the affair prior to what happened, and it was just
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: a sad situation. And when I say sad, sudden adult
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: death sentral and what happened, and they maybe need to
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: bring in an expert to explain what is sad? Okay,
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: it happens to how many people, How likely was it
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: that this could have happened to her? That's what he
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: needs to do to convince the jurors that this could
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: have happened a person dying from sudden adult death syndrome.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even as you're saying it, though it seems hard
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: to believe. I think they've got I think you're absolutely right,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: They've got a really difficult case ahead of them, and
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: I agree with you. I can't really see this going
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: any other way but south for him. But we will
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: continue to follow that one. It just started. We're only
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: in the first week of testimony, and we will continue
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: to keep you all updated.
• 10:19
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  Speaker 5: to take care of your physical health, why wouldn't you
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  Speaker 5: do the same for your mental health. This actually has
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  Speaker 5: happened to me a few times. You know, as a
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  Speaker 5: freelance worker, my insurance coverage is all over the map,
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  Speaker 5: So it's happened to me where I haven't had insurance
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• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Let's turn to a case out of Manhattan at New York,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: where new details surrounding the arrest of Luigi Mangioni have
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: come to light after this week's suppression hearings in the
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: high profile murder case. Mangioni was arrested at a McDonald's
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: in Altoona, Pennsylvania, after a five day manhunt in the
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: wake of the shooting of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Attorneys for Mangioni are seeking to have evidence barred from trial,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: including the contents of his backpack, which reportedly included a
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: three D printed gun and silencer, notebooks and letters allegedly
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: written by mangione along with electronic devices. The defense is
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: also claiming officers failed to read Mangioni his miranda rights
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: and therefore any statements he made should be host Court
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: observers were shown surveillance footage from the arrest, as well
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: as portions of the bodycam video, which will remain sealed
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: until trial is underway. No trial that is set yet
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: for either Mangioni's state or federal trials, and the judge's
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: rulings on this evidence could have massive implications as the
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: case moves forward. Marie walk us through the issues at
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: play here. They're talking about search and they're also talking
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: about statements. What are the things that the judge is
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: going to be listening for.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: The judge is.
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: Going to start off with a foundation of the Constitution,
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: and the Fourth Amendment says that we should be free
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: of unreasonable search and seizures. So they obviously, in my opinion,
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: they had probable cause to come after him, because it's
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: not like they just ran into a random man with
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: a backpack and the McDonald's. They knew who they were
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: looking for and someone called in a tip. So when
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: they effectuated the arrest, in my opinion, they had probable
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: cause to arrest him. And once you arrest somebody, a
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: search of their belongings could be a part of that arrest.
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: So while their attorneys are trying to say the police
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: had no right to go through his backpack, I disagree
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: because once you have your probable cause, and I think
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: that's undeniable here, and you put the person under a
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: lawful arrest, you have the right as police officers to
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: look through their belongings to see if they had a gun,
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: if there's still a danger to the environment, to the
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: police officers. So whatever they find in there, if it
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: turns out to be something that's detrimental to the defendant's case,
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: is not necessarily something that should be suppressed. So that's
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: what the judge has to examine here. Was it lawful
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: for them to detain him and go through his stuff?
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: And did the stuff they find could you use it
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: against him.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: During the trial?
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Excellent analysis and breakdown of us for that. Now let's
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: get to the Fifth Amendment issues with his statements. They're
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: also saying that they asked him a lot of questions
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: and they were talking to him without providing him with
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: his Miranda rights. Is that an issue here or do
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: you think there's some other arguments.
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: That's a big issue. I haven't seen. We haven't seen
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: all the evidence. Did they interrogate him with video? And
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: why on earth would a case of such catastrophic nature,
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: like an assassination on a public street in New York City,
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: why would they not read him his Miranda rights? So
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: I don't know exactly what they said during the interrogation.
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: Was it papers they had him sign or did they
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: orally say to.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: Him, you have the right to remain silent. Do you
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: want an attorney? Do you know you don't have to
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: talk to us?
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: And as soon as you tell us you have an attorney,
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: we'll stop talking to you. Do you want to talk
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: to us? You feel comfortable? Are you doing it up
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: your front free volition? We don't know all of what
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: was said. We need to see how and if the
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: miranda rights were delivered, and did he have a clear understanding?
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Was their coercion was were their threats?
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: All of that before you and I could say anything,
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: But it would be shocking to me that the police
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: officers and detectives who arrested him and interrogated him would
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: not read him his Miranda RZE. If they didn't read
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: it to him and he was unaware adequately, it could
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: suppress the statements. But I just can't believe that they
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: would fuck it up like that.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: I don't think, so let's hope.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Let's hope.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: Not.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: An interesting thing about miranda though, is it always has
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: to do with the concept of custodial interrogation. So the
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: idea of one that somebody's in custody and two that
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: they're being interrogated, meaning they're being asked questions in furtherance
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: of investigation, and many times like one or both of
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: those have to apply for miranda to apply, and sometimes
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: surprisingly one of them will not apply. Somebody might be
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: in custody, they might be handcuffed in the back of
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: a squad car, but they're not being asked questions and
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: they're just volunteering statement here. Initially, the conversation takes place
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: at this McDonald's and he is, you know, there's a
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: couple of officers around him, they're wearing badges, they're wearing guns.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Do you think that qualifies as custody though, for a
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: person just sitting at a McDonald's, What are your thoughts?
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: I don't think it qualifies as custody. But did they
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: put him in cuffs? That's important. Did they surround him?
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: Did they say you're not allowed to leave? I think
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: the nature of the environment, the open space of the McDonald's,
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: makes it more like we're having.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: A talk with you.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: This is an interrogation, but it's not an interrogation after
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: a lawful arrests. But one could argue, you're standing around
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: me with guns. I didn't think that I could leave. Yeah,
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: it all depends on how he delivers it. Once they
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: have that hearing and they talk to him, if they
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: put him on about his state of mind, how did
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: he feel, did he feel he was free to leave?
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: Did they have their hands on their guns, how far
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: away were they from him, did they isolate him from
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: the public, did they take him to a back room?
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: A lot of what were the conditions.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: But again, I don't think that any judge is going
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: to suppress anything in this situation.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: We're going to trial with what they have.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: I don't think any judge is going to suppress his
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: statements that he made at McDonald's.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: I don't think so.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very fact intensive inquiry being made by
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: the judge here because it is true, and it's kind
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: of this objective bystander standard with a person. You know,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: they don't necessarily have to be in cuffs to feel
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: like their freedom is somehow restricted.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: If I'm sitting into McDonald's and there's a bunch of
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: cops standing around me with their hands on their guns
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: asking me questions, maybe I don't feel like I can
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: exactly stand up up and walk out. But the other issue,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: too is that a lot of these statements they're trying
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: to get into. He was in jail, clearly in custody,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: but he's just having conversations with casual conversations with the guards,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: and I imagine some of that the judge might let in.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: It'll it'll be interesting because I think in this situation
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: the judge might kind of go statement by statement and
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: split some hairs pretty finely to see.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: What comes in.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: I agree, Yeah, Yeah, fascinating case.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Again.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: That hearing is continuing all this week and we will
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: continue to keep an eye on it and keep you updated.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Let's move finally to Salt Lake City, Utah. Very fascinating case.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: A father faces multiple counts after he and his three
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: children went missing on a family hike. MICUs Smith has
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: been charged with child torture and aggravated child abuse after
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: he and his children were transported to local hospitals following
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: the grave ordeal, with two of the children in critical condition.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Smith allegedly planned to take a hike a summit and
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: summit the Board's Folk Trail area at around nine am,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: before reaching the summit around six pm, making their return
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: descend in the dark amidst fog, mist and rainy conditions.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: According to authority, Smith told responders he was comfortable hiking
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: in the dark without a light, despite being unfamiliar with
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: the trail. Video was taken from the incident and sent
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: to Smith's wife indicate the children were uncomfortable and scared
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: with the excursion. In one of the recordings, Smith's eight
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: year old daughter allegedly asked her father, quote, are we
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: going to freeze to death? Daddy, to which Smith reportedly
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: responded they were almost to the top. Prosecutors claimed the
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: cases about emotional psychological harm, alleging Smith acted in a
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: depraved manner that caused emotional harm. The children are reportedly
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: all stable and recovering after the terrifying incident and will
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: be watching this case closely. What do you make of
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: this one, Marie? What do you think of the project?
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: He's been charged with several felonies in this case.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: What do you think about this?
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: I think that he was suffering from some sort of
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: mental illness, and I think that my research for this
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: segment shows that there was a history.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: Of mental illness number one.
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: And I think it was maybe a little bit of
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: an overreach for the DA to charge him with torture.
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: That to me involves premeditation, malice and full intent. Was
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: it depraved and reckless type of child abuse? Yes, because weren't.
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: They weren't even big kids, right. I think the eight
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: year old was maybe one of the oldest ones. It
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: wasn't like, let me take my teenage kids out on
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: a hike. They were little, tiny babies who shouldn't have
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: even been outside on a hike like that in the
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: first place. We're not talking about a walk in the
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: park and a little incline. We're talking about expert trails
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: for people who are expert hikers. One thing that came
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: to my mind is where is their mom? How are
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: you letting this man leave your house? And I'm not
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: trying to victim blame or shame because she's a victim
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: and so other children, But where is the adult in
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: the room to say, I know you ain't taking my
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: kids nowhere, it's not happening.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: Where are you going with the kids? I think they overcharge.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: I think they overcharge, and I think there are a
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: lot of I'm expecting as this fleshes out in court,
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: if there's no plea deal or anything like that, that
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: his mental state is going to be very important, and
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: his attorneys better start lining up the experts to explain
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: his lack of adult judgment, impulsivity.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: That sort of thing.
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: Maybe he was on meds and see if that could
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: be a mitigator for him if he's convicted something.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out the right way to say
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: this without getting attacked from our listeners and viewers, and
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I hope everybody can understand I'm just, for a moment,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: trying to explore this out from a kind of theoretical
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: point of view. I agree with you that if it
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: turns out he had a history of unrest and self
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: harm and he was perhaps trying to use the children
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: as a tool and all of that, I completely agree
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: with you, criminal charges are absolutely appropriate. But I'm also
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: wondering too, I mean, pushing, you know, parents sometimes push
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: their kids in uncomfortable situations. I'm thinking about my childhood.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: My father was a marine. I mean, there were plenty
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: of times when we went out and did things that
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: maybe we were uncomfortable with and maybe was you know,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: pushing us physically and past our comfort levels. But I
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: don't think I would ever call it child abuse, And
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: maybe that's not at all what we're dealing with here,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: But it does seem like we're dealing with a little
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: bit of a slippery slope area where you know, what
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: he did in and of itself, taking your kids on
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: a hike is not necessarily abusive, torture or anything else.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: But if he was doing that to put them in
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: harm's way, I could also understand it.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Do you see where I'm going with this?
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: I see where you're going with this, And I don't
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: think he was doing it to put them in homes way.
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: That's why I disagreed with the torture charge, because torture
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: is so intentional, it's so full of malice and premeditation.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: You don't accidentally torture someone.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: And I don't believe that he had that intent in
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: his heart.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: Did he have poor judgment? Yes?
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: And you know, circling back to the part where you
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: made that analogy between you and your dad, who was
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: a marine, I think the age of the kids is
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: the most for lack of a better word, disgusting part.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: They were a little kids, So what are you trying
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: to teach them? They weren't teenagers, they weren't young young men.
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: If your dad said, you know what, Josh, let's go outside.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: And deep dive into something whatever marines do, and you
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: were old enough to understand.
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: How to work your tank, schoola dive or whatever it is, right,
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: But if you're like five or six years old and
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: two and you're saying, Daddy, what is this, then it
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: would be abused.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: It depends on the age of the children.
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: And from what I've read, the children were very very young.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: That created to me the child abuse and depraved and
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: difference because he should have known. But the torture part
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: I don't think was an appropriate charge.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: When I was in the DA's office, we had a
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: phrase that sometimes people are just fellingly stupid and that
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: might just be what he was in this case.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: I agree.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Well, continue to keep an eye on it because the
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: last I heard too, he was denied bail. He's remaining
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: in custody. They are taking this case very seriously in
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: that jurisdiction. But we will leave it there for now. Marie,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: that is our show for this week. I can't thank
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: you enough for coming on. Where can people find out
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: more about you?
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: They can find find out more about me.
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: They can watch me on Core TV most Tuesdays from
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: I believe twelve to two New York time Fridays six
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: to seven and Wednesdays two to five. They can also
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: look for me on YouTube. I have a YouTube channel.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: It's called Fantastic.
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I took your advice discuss you know, how to
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: expand myself and other than coming on fantastic shows like yours,
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: I have legal analysts unscripted. It's on YouTube and on
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: that you know, I cover the cases we cover on
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: the networks, and I'm able to talk how I want
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: to talk, and you know, sometimes I'll be talking.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: So it's like an unscripted situation.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: And you can also find me on my website where
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: I address issues with Haitian migrants and I do free
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: work permits and other immigration applications that they qualify for.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: And on that platform is Haiti Immigration Project Hip for short,
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: and I do free work permits and other applications for migrants.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: So that's me fantastic.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: I love it, so busy, so fun. Appreciate it again.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, josh Ritter. You can find me on
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter at Joshua Ritter ESQ. And if you
• 27:31
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• 27:33
  Speaker 1: true crime cases, please check out my YouTube channel Courtroom Confidential,
• 27:38
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