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AIM High: The importance of a learning mindset · Two in Twenty

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another episode of Aim High.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Twink Field.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the host of these podcasts, which are specifically for investment marketers.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're talking about the importance of a learning mindset.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think, particularly in this environment where many of us are working from home, the cultures that are creating the opportunity for everybody to grow and to learn and to stretch themselves has become increasingly important.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're talking about how businesses and how individuals embrace that mindset for curiosity, for questioning, for challenging.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: We've got two great speakers on this, Farley Thomas, who's the founder and CEO of Manageable, and Barbara Ruth B, who is the head of AMIA for Allianz Global Investors.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I will go straight to my conversation with them.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you both, Farley and Barbara, for talking to me today about the importance of a learning mindset.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that I feel that we're hearing a lot of at the moment.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it felt like a dedicated podcast to it was appropriate.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Before we get into some questions, perhaps you could each introduce yourselves.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'll maybe come to you, Barbara, and then Farley.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Barbara Ref B.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Swiss in parts and American in other parts.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I've a Swiss dad and American mom.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I grew up in a bunch of places.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: So please don't take any notice of my very strange accent, which tends to morph depending on which uh country I'm in at the time.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked in asset management for eons almost too long to say.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Some of that journey was with Folly's.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very happy to see him again.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we just reconnect reconnected recently for an event I was hosting in EMIA.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that's my role at AGI.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the head of EMIA, which largely has a lot to do with our clientele, with our marketing folks, and the products that we bring to market.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, been in the market for a long time.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I started on the dark side in investment banking a long time ago, and then slowly inched my way into asset management.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I've largely been doing in the last 25 years.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Super.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sally.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Twink.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: And nice to see you too, Barbara.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: After your um example, I feel I should say something exotic about myself.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: So um, well, I guess I was born in India and I grew up there for the first decade, and then I've been completely brainwashed into becoming a Brit ever since, uh, having been here since uh the early 80s.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um maybe a bit in reverse to you, Barbara.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I ended up doing a little stint in investment banking, uh, but but also spent eons in the asset management sector, mostly in distribution uh marketing roles, um, as you know well, Barbara.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um I um thought I had an entrepreneurial streak and decided to leave um the world of uh banking and asset management about six, six, seven years ago now, and um retrained actually as an executive coach, um did a master's in coaching, which was an eye-opener after decades of of um asking the wrong questions.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think I realized there were some different questions you could ask people that might get better responses.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, so so sort of built up a coaching and leadership advisory practice over the past five, six years, and then last year finally um found something that I'm really quite passionate about, scaling, which is a business that um um a few others and I have launched uh called Manageable.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, essentially to equip modern managers with modern ways of managing, which is to have a coaching style.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you both.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: So to this learning mindset, um, maybe we'll stick with you, Farley, just for the first kickoff.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Around why do you think it is seemingly coming up so much now?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you seeing it and and what will it drive us?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Just to give you something to chew on straight off.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so that's that's a big question.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: And uh forgive me if I don't keep track of all of the aspects, but I'm sure Barbara will will um will have lots to say as well.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, uh maybe it's worth being clear about what it what this phrase even means.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'm not I'm not saying that I have a definition, but rather I'll just share what I understand.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Which which I I guess at one level is uh is about lifelong learning, continuous learning, being curious and also perhaps humble, you know, that you you can't know everything, surely.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's it's surprising.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think some people give me the sense that they do know everything.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um so why is it why is it coming up more and more?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think part of part of it is how to engage and and and keep really talented um individuals.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Of part of why it's becoming an important part of, let's say, the company's arsenal is that if you have knowledge workers that are really keen to grow and develop their knowledge, one of the things they might reasonably expect their firms to do is give them opportunities to stretch themselves and learn.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the let's say one side of it.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think on the other side, um there's just so much change, isn't there?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um the only way really to stay sharp, to stay current, is to be continuously challenged to learn.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's an individual responsibility, I think, as well as a company one.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and maybe you know, the two these trends or or or themes are just becoming more and more obvious as a source of competitive advantage or as a source of uh progress for individuals.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and and I I think there's probably a lot of firms needing to catch up now and provide more opportunities for individuals to learn on the one hand, but also for individuals to be encouraged to consider this to be just part of day-to-day life rather than something they do for two days in in a month.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: What I notice especially since we've gone into, how should I say, into into lockdown-induced interactions, is that um the learning need has increased significantly.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting because our shift, our time allocation has shifted.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Used to be some of that was set aside for coffee jets, for interaction.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And since we have less of this sort of um time to share and interact, learning has become, I wouldn't say a space filler for that.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that, but it's become an important element of day-to-day life almost, because we continue to learn as we come to grips with the change of how the world morphs.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and perhaps that's been for me one of the key changes in day-to-day interaction with my colleagues as well.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: So today, and actually interestingly, just come from um something I sponsor right now, which is probably well, you will left the EMD university.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we're teaching our folks all about emerging market debt, a very particular asset class that's kind of hard to regurgitate in front of the client and look good because it has so many uh tricky elements.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um, whilst if I were to do calls like that or VCs or team meetings like that a year and a half ago, I might attract the all 30 to 50 participants out of an invite list of maybe 250.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Today, even the day after after the Easter break, we had over 100 folks in there.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so it goes to show that learning takes a different element into account.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: The other one is um, and Fali, uh we still debate internally about the presentation you held at our at our offsite, which was the one about taking the role as a challenger.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that role as a challenger with your clients, that added value, um, has one key key key element which one needs to solve first, and then having the knowledge to challenge.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if one wants to make a difference to a client conversation, which is what marketing ultimately ought to do and to support with Twink and Polly, it is to be able to do that from a learned perspective, else you make no sense.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: So learning is so important these days because the time slots we receive are not filled with a bit of chit-chat on the weather or whether the coffee machine is any good, or whether you had a nice weekend.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: The client usually dives right into it when he gives you a little bit of his his or her precious time.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, unless one does that in a learned fashion, boy, it's going to be a short conversation.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's also a key element today to be able to make a difference and to actually succeed.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I absolutely take your point that kind of growing your knowledge today is that obviously isn't social or sort of iterative by sort of being amongst your colleagues, but it has to be very deliberate and structured in terms of that sort of learning experience that a company is uh providing, um, as as well as sort of encouraging that individual attitude as well to be open, open to it.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess in that context, then how difficult or easy has it become to ask questions?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think back to the beginning of my career, and I definitely, well, I think I'd have learned a lot more, should I say, if I'd asked the questions that were in my mind but felt sort of that I held back thinking it's probably not valid, or I probably is my naivety.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you still see that as a challenge and how in this particular environment remotely, maybe it's even less easy to sort of come forward with questions and be that challenger?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if I may, just I have um it depends on the technology, and it depends also on the mindset that you are requiring.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So when we have our teach-ins on Teams, you have two options.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: You can raise your hand with that famous little um thingy there, that emoji there on the top, or you just state the question during the call on the messaging board.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And now what we've started is to introduce, you can state the message in your own language, because I have lots of different lingos in my team, and then it translates automatically.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I found since we do that, um, things have dramatically improved.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: So people no longer feel, oh, I can't ask this question because I'm not quite sure how to how to phrase it right in whatever language the teaching is held.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of it is comfort twink, and that will not change.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but by taking away some of the obstacles of language and having to actually speak rather than to write, um that makes a difference.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Th there's something about culture that comes to mind.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe organizations of in the past um didn't prize not knowing, didn't prize someone not knowing things, but rather valued what people knew.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: And if if that, let's say, and I can I can see you nodding, so hopefully I'm not causing too much offense with this gross generalization.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then if we can contrast that with maybe a growing modern culture, uh where it's it's actually worrying if you behave as if you have all the answers.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: And actually what's really valued is that openness, that curiosity, that humility.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and so one part of um you know, one part of it I think is that you know leadership in organizations should, you know, really um sort of do a self-assessment.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how how is our organization supporting this learning attitude, this openness?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, are certain individuals stuck maybe in an old paradigm and are therefore holding back the organization?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And are others role models for continuously being open, having this humility?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: So so that that's one thing I wanted to add to to Barbara's points.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing I think, yeah, absolutely, this this technol technology and and format really does shape, doesn't it, and what we feel we can and can't do.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's definitely um a few things that I think that, at least for me, have been really underlined through the crisis, through through lockdown.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that is, you know, not having these spontaneous opportunities to learn or to pick someone's brain or just be curious whilst you're just chatting to someone.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know, what does that mean?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, can you explain a little bit more?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think maybe the the the silver lining here is that, of course, you know, hopefully we will get back some of those serendipitous kind of learning opportunities.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: But maybe there was actually something missing before, which is we just assumed people had lots of opportunities to learn and didn't actually stop and and organize that a little bit better, a bit like your EMD organized learning uh event, Barbara, that that you just talked about.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um maybe whether or not we're locked down, you know, whether or not we're we're we're working remotely, I think managers' responsibilities and individuals themselves should, I think, extend to looking for time in people's diaries, even when they when they are focused on reflecting on something or being curious about something, rather than what I sort of find way too often in my in my certainly in my in my coaching with my coaching hat on, where there's this kind of back-to-back meeting culture.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, great if there's some learning going on in in these back-to-back meetings, but you know, it just feels so relentless and there's such a high level of pressure on individuals.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I would love if this culture, this kind of contrast I made, could also include uh a growing sense of not encouraging being in back-to-back meetings, not encouraging that kind of constant being on.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: So that we could also say to people, hey, great, you've got some blank space in your diary.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: I bet that's where some great learning and reflection will happen.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that's as much work as having lots of meetings with other people.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um so so I think there's there's some great stuff happening with a shift towards a not-knowing culture.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: But I feel maybe we need to also encourage the shift towards a not always in a meeting culture.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that what do you what do you think, Barbara?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh well, I've I've tried that.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I try to usually at the beginning of a week, uh, have to do it now with I'll try to set in blocks of time, just half an hour here and there, an hour here and there.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I tend to then get bogged down and it kind of disappears if somebody gets the wind of what I'm trying to do.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's really that that time, that reflection.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I also find by not commuting sometimes that helps.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I can also reflect, well, if I have that time that I can do an hour of yoga instead of you know being squashed in a train somewhere near near Liverpool station and not being able to get out for a while.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more how do you use your time reflectively?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And when do you muse about things?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's something we take learning from, I'd say.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's also needs to be encouraged more often.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: We the the culture, depending on the country, the culture is still very much, oh, I have to have a very busy day, else I I do not, you know, I do not do justice to my job, to my vision of the one I ought to be in terms of reflecting.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a lot, there's still a lot of pressure on that.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I think that's a that's a that's a self-reflection everyone needs to have for themselves.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Whether organization drives that, I've seen, no, I I don't think so.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And culturally, it's it's a cultural mindset, Folly, to your earlier point on culture.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've seen the way that um, and it's also a meeting that culture has two elements there, in the meeting themselves.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, trying getting uh certain team, certain colleagues from certain regions to um please let the other guy now have have time for a question or something is sometimes tough.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: If they come from a much more uh used to being a challenging individual, you know, in your family, in your in your growing up phase, in your schooling days, um that usually reflects in your work in my end as well.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in certain countries it's just not on that you ask questions because that's not the way that you're schooled.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it also depends, and that's really an important point when one leads to a meeting that you can sense who could contribute meaningfully and is holding back because he or she um just doesn't feel empowered to do so.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's still the same topic as it was when we met in person.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: But um the fact that we can interact through different media has helped a little.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: The second piece on behavior patterns is also a cultural one.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if I reflect the difference of between the Nordics and perhaps Italy and the various teams and the behavior patterns and the way that they interact, it's vastly different.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to bring everyone under under the same sort of roof of one of those virtual meetings is both interesting but also challenging.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it requires that we engage with each of the culture that we interact with.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's really fascinating, isn't it?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: That sort of the onus on the company to provide the culture where there is kind of space and safety to be curious, as well as as you were saying earlier, on the individual to sort of kind of challenge those old habits and die hard, really.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, some of us that kind of grew up in a kind of corporate environments of presented, you know, to sort of sort of to shift the mindset.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um so do you think you know, as we start to, you know, as these companies change their cultures and try and um provide the environment for more of the of those challenges as kind of more curious uh people within our companies, um, to provide those opportunities to to invite people to stretch themselves.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think we're then recruiting differently now in the industry in terms of who we're looking for?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And well, actually, I don't think companies change their cultures, individual can't change the culture of a of a company to think.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I think we could we're taking it wrong.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if employees, myself included, still believe, you know, the mana is coming down from heaven and somebody's going to tell me what to do, and then I'll be perfect, it ain't gonna happen.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, as individuals, regardless of the role and the structure that we're in, we have a lot of knowledge.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: We have the power to change this.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Especially now, when the interaction has become so flat.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's no longer hierarchical or or in a lit more in a limited sense.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I think there's there's this role modeling that that that that um I think you're doing, Barbara, clearly from what you're saying, um that will have an effect on quite a few people, I think, within within your organization, Barbara, within Alliance Global Investors, um, whether you like it or not, because I think you know you have a set of responsibilities.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe uh to your point on on you know, going back to your point to ink, you know, I I feel that I'm completely with Barbara that there is an individual um action needed.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we we we we should take responsibility ourselves, but also recognize our role in the system and and and how influential we can be, and and and to use that influence wisely, you know, and and what I mean by that is, you know, if if if the three of us, for example, consciously uh if we think about our influence and and we we want to pivot towards this kind of learning culture, let's say, because we think the three of us that this is a good thing, then I think we could potentially model some behaviors that will, whether we like it or not, kind of create a sort of a ripple effect uh in the system we're in.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, if I if I think about your role in in EMIA, Barbara, that that then, you know, I I reckon whether you like it or not, you might have a significant influence.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: If you, for example, and I'm just picking up your 30 minute breaks in your in your diary example, just as as an example, if if if you if you sort of talk That into a bit of a mantra, you know, just sprinkling it around in all your conversations.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think people will follow a bit more this idea because they'll think, oh, it actually makes sense.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's not rocket science.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And Barbara keeps talking about it.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: So this must work for her, and it makes sense.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna try it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, this is how I guess fashion, fashions change, right?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Or or cultures kind of uh adapt.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I think um, yeah, just adding to your point, Barbara, you know, there's this kind of how much influence do I have?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: And what how how can I pivot the system in a direction that I think is is is good.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think leaders in particular, leaders of organizations in particular, have this kind of um challenge where you know that they they might inadvertently pivot an organization towards a kind of being full-tilt back-to-back meetings just because that's what their diaries are like.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: They don't want everybody to do that.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: But but it's kind of it it creeps beyond them.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's an opportunity now, really, for us to take stock of the different behaviors, the different patterns we've got into.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: And which of those do we want to actively um keep and and and therefore model?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and and a concrete example would be you know, will leaders consciously work remotely, intentionally work remotely on some days, to model that this is the new normal?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Or will they say everyone should work remotely two to three days a week, but I'm gonna be in the office the whole time?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because in unfortunately, you can see what's going to happen.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: People will think, ah, uh, if if if Twink and Barbara are in the office the whole time, then they don't really mean it.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we need to be in the office the whole time.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course you create this kind of vicious cycle, right?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Whereby you you might then say to everyone, why is everyone in the office the whole time?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then everyone's like, Well, it's because you're in the office the whole time.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, anyway, you you get my point.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh I and I'm mindful, Twink, that we didn't touch on your recruitment point.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, just very briefly, and and Barbara, you know, you you're doing a lot of recruitment.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I do I do think we we've probably always looked for great qualities in in candidates, right?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's nothing new there.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but perhaps to your point, Twink, you know, um, if it's worth paying a bit more attention to the mindset, that's probably, you know, uh, you know, something to to to figure out a method for.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how because if you ask someone, you know, do you have a learning mindset?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the answer won't be no, because they'll think, well, I think yes is the right answer.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: So so maybe maybe there is an opportunity to to to kind of figure out in recruitment, you know, how do you evidence?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: How can we get be get individuals to evidence this mindset rather than just say?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, Barbara, you know, uh or toink, you know, what the answer to that is, but it just definitely feels like a great thing to be looking for evidence of.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you know, for me, that's a more natural evidence.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: So um I I have a rather unorthodox methodology there, if I'm very honest.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's more to do with the personality set of those that we recruit.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so largely the world is in two camps.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, those that really care about making the thing work, whatever the job is.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have those, and they can also be within a team, they can be an absolute driver, those that care mostly that it works for them, right?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more about personal power versus shared power.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the two different mindsets um are very complementary to one to one another, because that personal drive often um creates a lot of a lot of push within an organization.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to have both.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: However, those that have the cause in mind are usually uh much better off in driving teams ahead or projects.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to balance the two the two individual kind of typologies um very carefully in a team, especially in a distribution team.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: So my learning has been that those that drive a cause do that because they have evidence, learning, and knowledge to identify what makes the cause work.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I usually get learning.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: In the other camp, I get learning if it benefits their career, their income, their fame.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the different drivers manifest themselves in a different way.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it's more about um the roles that you need to fill and how that complements the team.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because you definitely need both.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Without that strong drive that some folks have in terms of progress for themselves, um, it becomes too flat.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes too well, would you mind?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And oh yeah, um, well, I haven't considered yet.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so you need both roles.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: So recruitment has changed, but that's changed already a little while ago for me.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um it it's an interesting one to consider in regard to learning.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: But learning, and it's not one that you can, how should I say, recruit for, but usually it's quite well evidenced in CVs, isn't it?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um do you see?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean, Farley, you and I discussed this when we had our walk prior to the Edo.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um, because I was asking Twink, I was asking Farley, so what made you change your career?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: What made made you take this really big step?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you said something very important to me, Father, which I which still um which still is very much on my mind.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is it's been a calling.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: This role has been calling to me.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and you were asking me, well, have you had a calling like that?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I had no calling.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've been working in this industry, it's just sort of evolving, but I don't have a calling beyond the fact um that I like my coffee every day still.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, that's really it.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we're all different in the sense of of how learning and other things impact us.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, by the way, Folly, you're very lucky to have a calling.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's a really great thing if that happens.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and the same goes for this learning.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it doesn't hit everyone in the same way.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the need, the intellectual curiosity, how you need to feed the monster of learning within yourselves, if I may call it that, is a very individual take.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: And recruitment features into it.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um can I can I jump in, Twink, on on I think what Barbara's you know touched on here is um one of the um great pities, I think, whereby, you know, your your point, Barbara, is so powerful because what you just said was we're we all have a different sort of mechanism or appetite or or way of learning.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Now, now if we just stop and just think about that, right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: It means it means some quite profound things that at different times of the day I might be more in you know absorbing than than other times.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I might prefer to read rather than to listen.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um or I might prefer to kind of learn by doing.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and and so all of this you know seems really quite simple, right?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's really quite straightforward.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: But the reason I think it's such an important point, Barbara, is that if we think about all of the training programs or the the event, you know, the the the stuff you know that we've been beneficiaries of for you know, you know, maybe in my case, decades, um in our case, okay, um, it's all a bit standardized, isn't it?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: Someone mysteriously determines that in the third week of you know April, I will be absolutely ready for a one-week learning opportunity that will go that will be back to back.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Every day I'll be doing this one-week learning opportunity.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: And somebody decides on the format, right?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody's gonna stand up and present something to me.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then and then, you know, and and it just it I think there's a huge opportunity, especially with technology today, and of course, um a bit more of the science than you touched on, Barbara, which is you know, learning science.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: There's quite a lot of evidence of how we learn, and there's there's very simple ways of figuring out how we tick, you know.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, there's there's different learning styles.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and it it it it it seems that there is a huge opportunity for us to get away from this cookie-cutting, standardized approach to learning and development opportunities and start to be much more tailored, you know, so that Barbara gets the opportunities that really work for her, and I get the ones that really work for me.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: But but we therefore don't do the same thing unless it coincidentally is the case that we would both benefit from the same method.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, with technology, we really might have this huge opportunity ahead of us where we kind of have personalized learning opportunities.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was also reflecting on what Barbara was saying about these the two camps, the sort of those driven by the individual and those driven by the cause.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking, what a fantastic sort of challenge that creates to the other for the other camp.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: So there's that always-on learning mindset of what could I be learning from Barbara and from Farley and from this other sort of type of character that exists within my organization.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And just to, I always think of myself a bit like a magpie like that.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always sort of slightly um picking this up from here and that up from there.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so to your point, there's a structured and there's personalized, and maybe just that very kind of organic learning as well, just through experiencing other people and and trying to be a bit more conscious and aware of the process.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: But this is just what we have, it's so individual, the learning.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: I try to provide information, and then people can either pick it up during a learning session or listen to the recording or read through the material.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so hoping that you engage either those that are visually geared on the call or when they read the material, those that need to listen can just simply have a podcast like the one that you're recording now.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: And others will have to find other ways of how they interact the learning.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: But the more stimulus you give in in the almost varied sense, the more folks you can reach.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's the learning for me a little bit.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: You need to almost account for all tastes, you need to adjust the menu according to preferences.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was I'm conscious of um time and you know fascinating your perspectives and the conversation so far.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was just wondering as we look to wrap up this session, kind of when we think of the list our listeners, and maybe some people in an environment or a culture or have a manager that's a little bit more resistant to this type of learning mindset and environment.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder whether you had any suggestions or thoughts for listeners to try and sort of encourage them to uh start those conversations, to engage their businesses in adopting that you know safety and space that we talk to to enable them to grow and be challenged and want to stay, frankly.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um just whether you have any thoughts for that, you know, if they're struggling with the environments they're operating in right now, um, or or any other broader thoughts.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um Should I come to you, Farley, and then give the final word to Barbara?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um well, you you sort of ended on a big question, like like your opening one, uh, Twink.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um maybe a couple of tips.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: One for for managers and you know, people who are responsible for others.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and the tip is really simple, but very hard to do in practice.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and here it is.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's simply saying as many times as you can through the day, I don't know.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Really easy to do, but we seem to have been um programmed to do the reverse.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Let me tell you what I think, because I do know, instead of what is so powerful, because whether you know it or not, it it kind of really encourages the other person to step up, right?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it role models this kind of learning mindset, this humility, this this prizing of not knowing.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's my sort of tip for managers.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and and just just just saying this, I think it will make me more sensitive, won't it?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: Every time I say, Oh, uh let me tell you what I think.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then you kind of go, no, uh, I don't know, what do you think?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, that's the tip for managers.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: For for teams in general, I mean, you know, there's there's lots of things teams can do.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think one thing that I've I found really quite powerful is to collectively think about a a newspaper headline about the team that might be written in one year, about something that they've achieved that has not yet been achieved.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: Now, that's the easy part, you know, and you can be quite creative.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, might have won a mandate, might have, you know, opened up a new market, might have uh convinced management to double the marketing budget, you know, any of these things.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: But what I think then um really helps is to break that down into uh a few cogs, one of which is um uh if that's the headline in a year, uh what is the implication for me knowing something uh in order to make it happen?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: So what what's the knowledge I need in order to create that reality?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: What are the actions I need to take in order to make that a reality?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then you know, you can also think about it in terms of relationships.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: What are the relationships I need to create, maintain, and then this is another important part uh demise.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you you can't just keep adding relationships of the same quality.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: We know that intuitively.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that would be my kind of you know, learning mindset recommendation for teams.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, think about a goal a year from now, turn it into a headline, and then break that down into some knowledge gaps that need to be filled and some concrete actions that need to be taken and relationships that need to be adjusted.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Superb.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Fardi.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Barbara, final word from you.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, since this is a podcast um aimed at marketeers, let me perhaps um try to do that justice.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and for marketeers, it's usually about ensuring that the learning arrives at a source, may that be internal or external.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: So my recommendation would be assess the source, both culturally as well as in order to for message take up on how they would need things to be packaged, so that the learning transfer is there.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you sell from the UK to the Netherlands, make sure it's a very direct message, for instance.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you try to do it from Germany to Italy, get an Italian to write the to write the speech, or something like that.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Ensure that you know your audience that will direct the methodology and the message content, and that's perhaps especially where and um I um we've had this conversation before, Faley.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sorry if I'm referencing here again, but that's why working in Europe, I enjoy working for a European company because often it's about mindset.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if you need to impart a message, it's harder to do when you do that from another continent.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'd find it very hard to sell my product in the US, for instance, which is a much different mindset, and I'm sure it's it's it's vice versa.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's about the culture and the message that you want to impart.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Terrific.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you both so much.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: The final power packed few points there.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very, very much for your time and all your thoughts and expertise on this.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Really, really appreciate it.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Great pleasure, Twink.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, likewise.