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William Wallace: The Real Braveheart Part 2 · The Twin History Podcast

0:01
The Twin History Podcast brings together 2 Black Scotsman, 2
0:06
twins, 1 historian and one storyteller to explore the
0:10
moments that shaped our world. The show features Joe McCann,
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the eldest twin and resident storyteller, the one always
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asking why any of this shit actually matters, alongside
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Johnny McCann, 13 minutes younger, and the historian.
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Equipped with the dates, the fact and the receipt, Every week
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they invite listeners to pull up a chair as they unpack some of
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history's greatest tales, The ones you think you know, the
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ones you've never heard, and the ones that hit different when
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told by them. Enjoy.
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It's a twin history podcast. This is our second part, well,
1:32
our second episode on William Wallace Johnny.
1:35
Well, our second part. It is our second part, the 2nd
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episode. Yeah, fair enough. 2nd episode.
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I just need to make the distinction for our listeners.
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OK, So will we get into. Yeah, of course.
1:48
You you seem to be in a rush. You're we're like the guys who
1:52
created Game of Thrones. Have you ever have you ever seen
1:55
the pitch meeting video? No.
1:59
When he's like, you want to hurry this up?
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And he's like, well, we literally just got started.
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No. I I'm not in a rush, what do you
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want to say? Just like that, you're in a
2:10
rush. Johnny's got places to be and
2:13
people to see. I actually don't.
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But what, what is it? The net of justice is closing in
2:19
slowly, so you can't stay anywhere for too long.
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And that. OK, So yeah, we're we're
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obviously speaking about William Wallace.
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This is Part 2 where we'll dive into the life of Wallace.
2:32
Yeah, we'll dive into the life of Wallace.
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Obviously, Part 1 was mainly about the succession crisis, but
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we had to do that for the context.
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Well, we don't dealt with a gun to her head.
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The baby. We actually wanted to.
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We wanted to. I mean, you want to be as
2:48
detailed. I know you have a gun to your
2:50
head now to make you stay in your seat.
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And Martin Briggs is holding that gun at your head.
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Briggs from A Lethal Weapon. Christ.
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Say Martin Riggs. Riggs.
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Yeah. Oops.
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Martin Riggs. Yeah, Forgive me, Mel.
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Thank you, Sir. You're not forgiven.
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Thanks for staying as well and listening to the pod.
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Mel, Go ahead. All right, so let's start at the
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beginning with Wallace. What do we actually know about
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William Wallace's early life, his birthplace, his family, his
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education? Well, that that's that's a very
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good question because, well, I never hadn't finished it yet.
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There was still some of it to go, but OK, go ahead.
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It's like you're like when Louis Ferreu goes on that on that
3:39
radio station and does his rap and the guy's doing his
3:42
introduction and then Louie comes in and the guy's like,
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Louie, I'm not done. And he was so pissed.
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The guy, I'm not pissed. I'm just saying, yeah.
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But continue then. OK, let's start.
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Let's start all over. Listeners, I I do apologise.
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When a man's in a rush, he doesn't.
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When a man's in a rush, he doesn't even let you finish your
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question. So.
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So what's the question? What do we actually know about
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Wallace? His early life, his birthplace,
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his family, education. And why is so much of it
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shrouded in mystery? You done.
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Am I done? I.
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Yeah, Mel, are we done? Yes, we're done.
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So is shrouded in mystery because we don't know a lot
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about his early life. What we do know, and what most
4:25
mediaeval historians agree on, is he was born in Elderslie,
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which is close to Paisley. Never heard of it.
4:33
Who were the holdouts? Well, there were some Democrats
4:36
who wanted to make a name for themselves.
4:38
A young senator from Massachusetts Who?
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John F Kennedy. Never heard of them.
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That's from the movie Open, however.
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We'll definitely do an episode on him at some point.
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Me neither. It probably doesn't exist
4:50
anymore. OK.
4:52
So that this most again, mediaeval historians, which I
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mean, I'm not a mediaeval historian, but most mediaeval
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historians agree that his birthday was the 3rd of April
5:03
1270. And the interesting thing about
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that is that shows that he has from maybe not quite Landy
5:14
Gentry, but that he has from some kind of wealth because most
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births, more most births of like commoners as they called them,
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wouldn't be recorded. Yeah, So Wallace was not a a
5:29
commoner. His farm, he didn't come from a
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family of commoners. He wasn't as is depicted in the
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film, he's like from a like a Croft basically of farmers and
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like they they own their own farm, but they're they're not
5:42
shown as being wealthy. But his father?
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Again, some historians dispute this, but most agree that his
5:50
father was Malcolm Wallace, who's a minor, noble and
5:53
landowner at the time. So isn't it Robert Bruce?
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Robert Bruce is his father. Yeah.
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Well, I mean, that's what I have written down here.
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His his bloodline is contested. So some people dispute that
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Malcolm Wallace was a father. Some people, historians claim
6:12
that there's no record of the father, and we don't know who
6:17
the father was. OK.
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But I, I. Pertinent question with
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Wallace's Did he actually exist? Yes, he existed.
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Undoubtedly he isn't he like King Arthur or Jesus Christ?
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Well, that that's that's a very good point.
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And when I teach, I was taking the piss, but it's fine.
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No, it's fine. When I teach Wallace I I called
6:42
the lesson the man, the myth, because you taught me.
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Why was he? What was he?
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Doing in your school? No, when I teach Wallace as a
6:49
subject. OK, so the man I call the lesson
6:54
the man the myth. The lesson titled the man the
6:56
myth. Because there's so much
6:58
mythology around this man, it's difficult to separate what is
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true and what isn't. Well, OK, Well, give us what we
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know. Well, what what we do know of
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his early life was his father and brother were killed.
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Whether that was in battle against the English, whether it
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was over another matter, it could have been a dispute with
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some other like nobility at that time, again, we don't know for
7:27
certain. But after this, apparently
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Wallace considered becoming part of the Church.
7:34
She wants to become a priest. How old was Wallace when his his
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brother and father were killed? Again, good question.
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We don't know for sure he would have been.
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He would have been of age like in Braveheart.
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He's shown as being about 8 to 10 at that time.
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You know, he would have been like an adolescence at least he
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would have been like 141516, something like that.
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Did he go to France like he's depicted in the movie?
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Yeah, he did. We'll get get to that.
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He goes to France and he goes to Rome.
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But this would have been, I think it's 1299 when that
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happens. So it's long, but this is after
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the the succession crisis, so 1299, Yeah.
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So. Long after the succession
8:23
crisis, I mean by this point we've had the battle in Falkirk.
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So when is Wallace born then? I I said 12. 70 Oh sorry, I
8:30
missed that part Jesus. Christ, I said, 12. 70 OK, so
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so. By the time of his death, he's
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35 anyway, as as shown in the movie in Braveheart, he goes
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away. He's took away by Brian Cox, his
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uncle Argyle, and he comes back many years later.
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I think he's meant to be 21. This didn't happen, but he did
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go to France and he did go to Rome, but this would have been
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after the Battle of Falkirk. There's some records that
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suggest he was on the continent. OK.
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Is there anything more we need to know about Wallace's early
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life? There's very very little which
9:13
is has ever been like confirmed by historians.
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There's stories of him telling like English soldiers.
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He was like fishing. One day, apparently some English
9:25
soldiers came along and depending on who tells the
9:28
story, there were like 3510 of them and he kills them like
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single handedly because they want his fish.
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Again, that is just mythology. There's no record that this
9:41
actually happened. So yeah, there's a lot of his
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his early life is stranded in mystery and which which isn't
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uncommon for the mediaeval times.
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It's not. It's not.
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Unless you're a king or aristocracy or like mobility,
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there's very there's not going to be many records available.
10:08
Well, the yeah, I, yeah, that's. True.
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So he he first comes to national prominence in May of 1297.
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He leads a revolt in Lanark which results in the sheriff of
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the town, William Helsingroud, being killed.
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And many contemporary sources say he was killed by the hand of
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Wallace, but there's no contemporary source source even.
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Which evidence why this attack even took place so we don't
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know. I mean you, you go ahead that
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Blind Harry claimed that it was revenge for the murder of
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Wallace's wife that is depicted in the the film.
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Yeah, so we'll get into Blind Harry later.
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But yeah, the fellow and Blind Harry claimed that Wallace
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killed the Sheriff of Lanark because the Sheriff of Lanark,
11:05
it killed Wallace's wife. In the film, she's called
11:09
Marian, and Blind Parry names her as Marian.
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But there's no, again, there's no record that a wife even
11:19
existed. So you have to remember with
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Blind Parry and we'll get into him.
11:26
He he wrote it's called the Wallace, the poem about Wallace,
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170 years after Wallace died. Do they know each other?
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Of course. They've done 170 years after
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Wallace died. But they weren't contemporaries.
11:42
Well, they obviously weren't contemporaries.
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You know, that Wasn't Blind Harry immortal?
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He wasn't immortal. Well, how did he know all this
11:50
information then? Well, that that's what we'll get
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into. OK, Go, which was made-up, but
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it was even 30 years later after Blind Harry died, that a life is
12:01
even mentioned, so someone else added.
12:04
To the Wallace myth and the Wallace poem but you're happy to
12:07
accept the that the bible's fact and which was written Jesus
12:13
Christ is not mentioned until about 100 odd years after his
12:16
death and Wallace when someone tries.
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To do it about as a young Scotsman and suddenly that's all
12:22
called into question. Well that's a good point and I I
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do question most of the Bible but also Jesus.
12:31
Even the great Flood. Yeah, I the great flood
12:34
obviously didn't happen, but although some people say there's
12:38
like Nora's ark was found somewhere in the Himalayas or
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something by Doctor Spock. Doctor Spock, Leonard Nimoy.
12:45
What? in Star Trek?
12:46
No. In search of the TV show.
12:48
Did he find it? Yeah.
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Well, I I what he claims is Noah's Ark anyway.
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Well, I mean, it's, it's probably never been carbon dated
12:56
or carbon tested to prove that. But you know, like the Schreider
13:01
Schreider Cherin was carbon dated to prove when it was
13:05
actually made. But anyway, rough Jesus.
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He doesn't. He isn't mentioned until like
13:14
2540 years after his death. So the reason most ancient
13:19
scholars accept that is because it's it's basically a disparage
13:25
of like source. So someone, some priest calls
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Jesus the sorcerer of Nazareth, Nazareth.
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So that that's basically what what they're arguing as if Jesus
13:39
is an invention of the of the early Christianity of 1st
13:45
century Christianity. Why does that source, why is it
13:50
the star region source? But you can maybe argue to try
13:53
to get validity to the whole Jesus persona or math that they,
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maybe the church planted that source to give validity to it.
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But let's not get into that. That's maybe a future episode.
14:07
We could do enough of Jesus Christ.
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Listen, I'm not here. To tell you about Jesus, you
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already know about Jesus. Either he lives in your heart or
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he doesn't. Let's go back to.
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Wallace. Well, you brought him.
14:24
Up. That's a quote from Mad Men.
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Christ, I don't watch Mad Men, that was.
14:28
One of the greatest TV shows ever made.
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Anyway, we don't. As I said, we don't know what
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prompted this attack against the Sheriff of Garnet.
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So we did. Was Wallace married?
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Did he have a wife? Do we know that?
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No, there's no. Again, there's no record that he
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had a wife. But that doesn't mean he didn't.
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But. But why would Mel Gibson lie to
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us? Well, it's just to give the
14:51
protagonist like A cause, isn't it?
14:54
To give him something to fight for.
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But is there there's an argument that it was a calculated act to
15:03
ignite wider rebellion? Well, the the revolt against
15:07
Lanark. Well, the murder of the sheriff
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of Lanark, yeah. You you, well, I mean, perhaps.
15:13
And after this, the murder, after the murder of the sheriff
15:18
of Lanark, we see massive, like a massive uprising in the
15:22
region, the local region. So Wallace took up the reins as
15:27
the warrior bandit of the the cause for Scottish nationalism,
15:32
or Scottish and independence from the the English.
15:36
You don't want to say nationalism because Scottish
15:39
nationalism or nationalism as an idea doesn't emerge until the
15:44
1700s. There's no such thing as
15:46
statehood or nationalism until the 17.
15:50
Hundreds. He's just a A.
15:52
Warrior bandit, Yeah. So he sees himself as a warrior
15:56
bandit and he takes up the mantle to free the Scots from
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English oppression. I see when I've seen it.
16:04
And so we don't know what sparked that murder, but but
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Wallace goes quickly from a local outlaw or local bandit to
16:15
a national. Leader.
16:17
Yeah, he does. I mean, there are some months
16:19
passed between the killing of the sheriff and me and Wallace
16:23
becoming a national leader. So we see during those months
16:27
that there's much political manoeuvrum and the thing that
16:34
Wallace did was he, he and his men, basically they showed that
16:40
the English would be defeated. So they were doing like raids
16:44
against English. So they were in Selkirk Forest.
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In a contemporary report made to Edward the First confirms this.
16:52
So basically they would attack English garrisons or English,
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they would have been called caravans at the time, like
16:59
things transporting English Lords, English materials good
17:04
to, to, yeah, goods to and from England.
17:08
So Wallace and his men, they're they're basically active in what
17:14
would become the central belt of Scotland.
17:17
So as word spreads of of their similar rebellions crop up all
17:22
over the country, even as far as the Highlands.
17:24
So what? Wallace is inspiring these small
17:29
acts of rebellion. He's inspired them, inspiring
17:32
them. Yeah, absolutely.
17:34
So we've got rebellions happen, happening in the Murrays and the
17:38
Highlands and Straven. And the interesting thing at
17:42
this time is the nobility, the Scottish nobility were
17:46
indecisive so. Well, we know that from episode
17:49
1. We know that from Episode 1, but
17:52
at this time, this would have been 1297.
17:54
They don't want to further engage Edward, but they know
17:59
that Wallace is growing in popularity, so they want to.
18:04
They're basically hedging their bets.
18:06
They're basically playing both sides.
18:08
So this allows Wallace. They're sitting on the fence.
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They're sitting on the fence, essentially.
18:14
I mean, you could argue and some historians argue that they want
18:18
Wallace to succeed, but they can't come out and state that
18:22
publicly because if he succeeds in Scotland again as its own
18:27
country, and they, whether they're under the yoke of a
18:32
Scottish king or the English king, they're still going to
18:35
keep their land, their title, their money.
18:38
Their subjects. If they want Wallace to succeed,
18:41
why not support them? Because as I said, they've
18:44
still, many of them have sworn loyalty to Edward the First, so
18:48
they don't want to be an act of treason.
18:50
It'd be an act of treason. And if they swear loyalty to to
18:54
Wallace and he is destroyed, then they are basically selling
18:59
their own fate, aren't they in a sense?
19:01
But can they have supported them in order ways, With weapons?
19:07
With supplies. Well, they, they probably did.
19:10
Again, there's, there's no contemporary reports to show
19:13
this what they would have because they would have been
19:14
going through Scottish towns. And as he goes through these
19:18
towns, his numbers grow, his support grows.
19:24
That has basically his contingent swells with men.
19:29
And weaponry. So so he's a Wallace is a leader
19:34
of men. He's a leader.
19:35
Where he goes, men fall. Yeah, that, that's what the
19:39
records show. And what Michael Brown shows is
19:42
that I mentioned them in the first episode because we're
19:45
primarily using his source. Source.
19:47
Even the Words of Independence's book is fantastic book, he said
19:54
at that time, even though the nobility are torn, many of them
19:58
are not going to take up arms against their fellow Scots.
20:02
So if they're told. There's like an upstart or an
20:06
uprising near your land. You need to quell that uprising.
20:11
They're not going to take up arms and go into battle against
20:15
fellow Scots. So how did they deal with these
20:18
uprisings? Well, I mean, again, the English
20:24
try to repel the uprisings, but what this shows that the English
20:30
garrisons, the English castles are the castles under English
20:34
English occupation. Our towns are vulnerable, so far
20:39
removed from their supply line in England.
20:43
So at this time, we see Wallace join forces with Andrew de Mori.
20:50
Some people call him Andrew. Andrew Mori.
20:53
Andrew de Mori. Some people call him Andrew Mori
20:56
Mori. Yeah, We'll go by Andrew de
20:58
Mori. So he he is basically from the
21:01
north near the Highlands. So they join forces late like
21:08
late summer 1297. OK, and who was Mori?
21:13
Do we know much about him? He's been forgotten to history,
21:16
hasn't he? He's been forgotten to history
21:18
because he dies, as we'll see, after the stunning victory at
21:24
Stirling Bridge. He died.
21:26
He died a couple of months after that.
21:28
He was windy during the battle, but he he survived until
21:31
November of 1297. But then then he died.
21:35
Are we getting into Stirling Bridge already?
21:39
No. No, we're not.
21:40
We're we're about to get there, but not yet.
21:43
OK, well, what are we going to speak about?
21:45
So we are going, we are moving towards Stirling Bridge.
21:49
So, Wallace, excuse me, I'm losing my voice here.
21:54
Now that's not good for a podcast, so you can just mine.
21:58
That's fine. So Wallace and his men, they
22:00
they wrote English houses between the river today and the
22:04
river 4. So many of these garatons were
22:07
poorly manned and easily defeated.
22:12
So it's at this point that Edward the First rouses a huge
22:16
army which enters Scotland in early September.
22:22
But we've. With Wallace, Sir, we.
22:25
Is it fair to say that the man was a military tactical genius?
22:31
We'll get to that. We'll get to that.
22:33
OK. So Edward Longshanks.
22:35
Edward first, Edward Longshanks raises this army and I'm
22:39
supposedly sending them over to France.
22:45
He's sending them into Scotland to deal with the massive
22:49
uprising. Yeah, I know.
22:51
Go ahead. OK, so, OK, so Edward doesn't
22:57
lead this army at this time. So was he busy?
23:01
Well, I don't know if he's. Did his murder want some
23:04
something? Sorry.
23:07
Did his murder have some pressing business?
23:09
I'm sure his mother would have been dead.
23:11
Well, again, going back to Westeros in the Battle of the
23:16
the Blackwater. This better not be another Game
23:19
of Thrones reference. OK, go.
23:20
On your mind, The well, Shaft. Jesus.
23:24
I don't think so. There's five books and there's
23:26
two more to come. Well, you mentioned that before
23:29
in other episodes. Yeah, but I'm allowed to talk
23:32
about it. Go on.
23:33
You can speak about whatever you want, so the the.
23:37
The Blackwater is on fire. Go then.
23:41
OK. The English army is led by John
23:44
de Warren, so he leads the English army against Wallace, so
23:49
I think it's pronounced. Warren or Warren, but how could
23:52
Edward expect his men to fight if he's not leading them to
23:56
fight with honour and dignity and succeed if he's not there
24:00
because they've won many battles when he I mean the king would
24:03
not always be present during. Like a battle.
24:07
But you have the This battle's taking place on your own island.
24:13
It's not long after the succession crisis.
24:17
You've already you've had to quell.
24:20
You've all many rebellions. Yeah, you've already had to
24:22
quell many rebellions. Shouldn't you be leading your
24:25
men into this battle? No wonder they lost.
24:29
Well. I mean, they lost for various
24:31
reasons, but no, he, he, I, I don't know where Edward the
24:34
First was at that time. Maybe he was still in France.
24:36
Maybe there was some going on in England.
24:38
I don't know where he was, but his, his generals if you will,
24:46
they're seen as more than capable men of leading an army.
24:49
So would it suggest the the underestimated Wallace?
24:54
Of course they underestimated Wallace, but that's
24:59
underestimated Scotland as a whole.
25:02
So this is where we get. To the does this, does this tie
25:06
into the the the English superiority fine, which that
25:12
will probably persist to this day, but yes, but at the time of
25:18
the underestimated Scotland, they believe that they're
25:21
superior and they can deal with this.
25:24
Upstart. Well Wallace is seen as like a
25:27
bandit, so they're they're thinking OK, he's one of these
25:31
like many like skirmishes against small garrison's.
25:36
But when he faces the mate of an English army he will be
25:40
vanquished. OK, I mean, I guess you can see
25:44
their logic there, but let's go, go where to your next point.
25:50
Well, do you not have a question?
25:53
I've already gave you several questions.
25:55
So the English, they believe they they say Wallace is a band
25:59
that nothing is not something to worry about.
26:02
They will come up and and quickly deal with them.
26:05
Yeah. So they advance on to Stirling.
26:09
So the Battle of Stirling Bridge happens on the 11th of September
26:13
1297 and the Battle of Stirling Bridge has entered the Scottish
26:17
lexicon, hasn't it? If you name the Battle of
26:19
Stirling Bridge, everyone in Scotland should know what you're
26:23
talking about. Yeah, Or, you know.
26:25
Who would know what you're talking about?
26:28
What Mel Gibson? Mel Gibson because in Braveheart
26:31
and it's a fantastic, fantastic scene, but they then.
26:36
There's no bridge. There's no bridges.
26:37
They're called the Battle of Sterling, and there's no date
26:39
given either. But Mel Gibson, I mean, I I
26:43
think as a battle happened, if they had betrayed it as it
26:47
happened, it would have been incredibly cinematic if they
26:51
had. But the bridge wasn't available.
26:54
The bridge was available. But maybe it was just the
26:56
logistics. It would have just been more
26:58
difficult to film. I think so, yeah, of course, the
27:01
scene, the scene in the film is incredible. 1 I mean, it's one
27:06
of the most astonishing battle sequences in film history.
27:11
But is this the hold? The whole scene?
27:15
The whole part? But the the speech beforehand
27:18
before which has been well, it's been done to death, has been
27:25
quoted and misquoted and. It's been.
27:29
Misquoted, but in a terrible accent.
27:31
Yeah. Mel Gibson Scottish accent is
27:33
not great. I don't.
27:35
I don't just mean Mel actually listened to a podcast recently
27:38
and they were discussing Braveheart and they opened the
27:41
episode with that speech and it's like the Scottish accent.
27:45
And I know we do American accents, but a North American
27:48
accent is kind of you can do a decent one.
27:52
Most people can do a. Decent one, but in terms of a
27:56
Scottish accent, our American friends can't really capture
28:01
that. Yeah, it was very difficult to
28:03
do. I mean, it's not a great accent.
28:06
I mean, even recently 12. Sorry, 20 years later.
28:11
The blonde temple Jack O'Connor was brilliant in the film, but
28:16
I've never in my 43 years of living in Scotland heard a
28:19
Scottish accent like that. I don't know, he was Scottish
28:22
and I actor Scottish but never seen it.
28:24
Well, I, I, I think the scene is great and when he gives the the
28:29
speech, well, if this is your army, why does it go?
28:33
And Pierre Mullen comes out in the crowd and says we then come
28:37
here to die for them. Pierre Mullen's definitely
28:40
Scottish. Yeah, of course he was in rap
28:42
scene as but says. He was also and my name is Joe,
28:45
alongside Peter Mullen. He was, he's like home.
28:48
The English are too many. And then he goes into Sons of
28:51
Scotland. And yeah, his accent isn't
28:54
great. It's a very strange Scottish
28:56
accent, but it's still a fantastic scene.
28:58
And I actually, I show that scene in my lesson on Wallace to
29:03
the learners. I mean, there's no record of him
29:06
giving a speech before the battle.
29:08
And remember Wallace? Well, isn't that just like
29:11
Gettysburg? Yeah.
29:14
The Lincoln speech. The Lincoln speech.
29:16
What do you mean? Before Gettysburg, he.
29:18
Did give a speech, yeah. Yeah, but.
29:20
It did happen, but you're saying Wallace has done.
29:24
I'm saying there's no evidence that happened, but I'm assuming
29:27
he probably gave a speech before riding into battle.
29:30
Well, remember, he wouldn't have been.
29:32
Like as is shown as is depicted in Braveheart, he wouldn't have
29:35
been leading the cavalry or leading the infantry.
29:38
He. So why are we talking about the
29:40
man? What do you mean?
29:42
Why are we talking about him if he's not even leading the
29:44
infantry? And the battle story, It was his
29:47
him and Demori who came up with the tactics.
29:50
OK, OK, let the battle. So they, they let's, let's talk
29:53
about the battle. Why?
29:54
Why does it differ from the film Apart?
29:56
OK, well, some, some people, just to finish on that, some
29:59
people say Demori and Wallace were wouldn't have been like
30:03
they would have been in the woods.
30:04
They wouldn't have actually been.
30:06
On the battlefield. Yeah, if the speech was given,
30:09
it was given before the infantry left to the to the field.
30:13
OK all. Right.
30:15
So Wallace actually isn't involved in the battle.
30:18
He. He again, we can't, we don't
30:21
know for sure. You'd like to think that he
30:24
would have been there, he would have been in the battle, but I,
30:30
I've no idea. Like there's, we can't say
30:33
either way whether he would have been there or whether he would
30:36
have been. He was certainly on the field
30:39
after the Scottish victory and that's for certain.
30:41
But we'll get to that. So he's he's like Steve
30:46
Beschemian, things to do in Denver when you're dead.
30:50
His reputation for it exceeds his, his ability.
30:53
I think I might have did this joke in another episode.
30:55
I do apologise if I have. I can't remember well.
30:59
Anyway, the Maury and Wallace were probably.
31:03
And on Abbey Craig Hill during the battle.
31:06
So if we don't know if Wallace was in the battle involved, how
31:10
do we know he, well, he came up with the battle plan because we
31:16
do know and we'll get to that. OK, let's speak about the
31:18
battle, the battle of Startland Bridge.
31:20
It's remind us when it was again September 11th, 1290. 7 So what?
31:25
Wallace and the Moray were probably on Abbey Creek Hill
31:30
during the battle or at the start of the battle, so they
31:34
again, we don't know for certain, but apparently they
31:37
waited there as the English foolishly attempted to cross
31:41
Stirling Bridge. Yeah, why didn't they just wait
31:45
at orders side? Well, they should have.
31:47
But again, you have to remember they've got a huge the medical
31:51
advantage. They're thinking they're
31:53
fighting against a bunch of, like, farmers and peasants, A
31:58
ragtag, ragtag group. Yeah.
32:01
So at this time, the large English cavalry is basically
32:07
rendered impotent by how narrow the bridge is.
32:10
So they can only send the cross to horsemen at a time.
32:16
So the Maury and Wallace's forces are hidden.
32:20
So the English are crossing the bridge.
32:22
They're not sure what weights on the other side, but despite the
32:29
the Scots being outnumbered, both Wallace and the Moray have
32:34
planned their attack to perfection.
32:37
So as the English cavalry and infantry cross, they're torn to,
32:43
they're torn to pieces, they're torn asunder by Spears, rocks
32:47
and other projectiles. So the English were also,
32:51
they're not used to the bog around the bridge.
32:55
So some of them to try and escape.
32:58
And I don't know if you've been to the the Art Gallery on York
33:04
Place. Yeah, I believe so.
33:07
Well, upstairs there's a Muriel of the Battle of Stirling
33:11
Bridge, and it's just so haunting because it shows what
33:15
happened to many of the English and their horse horses, many of
33:19
them drowned. And the bog, the horses were
33:23
like basically sunk in the bog around Stirling Bridge.
33:27
Many of the English drowned because they had on heavy
33:31
armour. So they're trying to cross this
33:33
bog to avoid the projectiles and they're just sinking and sinking
33:38
and sinking further into it and many of them drowned.
33:41
So it's a tragedy, a fucking tragedy.
33:47
It's sad when they go young like that, when they go.
33:51
Go what Sopranos, Jesus Christ. But but yeah, many of them
33:57
drowned in the bog. I mean, the Muriel was quite
34:01
haunting because you see the the look of absolute terror on the
34:05
faces of the horses who would have been sinking into the bog.
34:09
And and the most famous person killed, the most famous English
34:13
person killed at Sterling was who cares on him?
34:16
So he's an English knight. He's been he's a Sir and he is
34:21
killed and fled possibly when he was still alive.
34:25
So as it's shown in Braveheart, Wallace kills the leading knight
34:31
or the man who leads infantry, the English infantry.
34:35
So Wallace, Doug actually killed this month.
34:37
We don't know. We don't know.
34:39
So in the movie, Wallace basically pulls this man off his
34:43
horse. He cuts the horse's legs off.
34:46
Yeah, I remember. He's riding towards him.
34:48
He's not called pure Trezenom in the film for some reason.
34:51
They should have just called called him Pure Trezenom maybe?
34:54
He was family with a suit. Yeah, maybe they would have
34:59
suit, but but anyway, that's how he's basically pure.
35:02
Trezenom at some point in the back was pulled off his horse
35:07
and then he's basically wrapped to pieces and he's fled after
35:13
he's mortally wounded. He's either still alive or he's
35:16
he's dead, but he's fled. Let's hope he was dead.
35:20
Yeah, we hope he was dead. You wouldn't wish that on
35:22
anyone. So you wouldn't wish that on
35:24
anyone. And Wallace, apparently he took,
35:28
he made a belt of Cresnham's skin.
35:33
Well, that was that true or just a, a rumour again?
35:36
We can't verify. I guess we can't verify it, but
35:38
it's one of the the myths of Wallace.
35:41
OK, so this battle was a resounding success for Wallace
35:48
and for Scotland, it's it's a stunning, stunning success
35:52
against the English army. Just the mate of the English
35:55
army's The Undefeated. Army.
35:57
So this is where Wallace is renowned as a as a military
36:04
tactician comes from, from the Battle of Sterling Bridge.
36:08
And sadly, Mel Gibson didn't have the budget to to do.
36:12
To use that bridge, I think he would have had the budget.
36:15
It was maybe just logistics. So after this and as shown in in
36:19
Braefart, but he obviously didn't get as far South as York.
36:24
Wallace did like lead an army into the north of England.
36:27
But it wasn't there. Wasn't Wallace knighted after
36:31
Sterling? Isn't that I'm going to get to
36:33
that. OK, OK, so by this point after
36:38
shortly after the Battle of Stirling Bridge.
36:41
Most English garrisons in Scotland have basically laid
36:45
down their arms to the Scottish. I think the only ones who didn't
36:50
were Edinburgh and maybe the Lithgow, but I could be mixing
36:54
that up with something else. So, so word spread fast that
36:57
Wallace said had LED this the Scots to resounding, stunning
37:05
victory, and the English garrisons laid down their arms
37:09
and did they flee to back to England or were they held
37:12
prisoners? Or again, some of them would
37:15
have been like to go to England, some of them maybe stayed of
37:19
their own three well in Scotland.
37:21
But Wallace has proved more than a a worthy adversary for
37:27
Longshanks. He's framework in the worthy
37:29
adversary to Longshanks. You have to remember it wasn't
37:33
just him. The more is there as well, so.
37:36
Forget the Mori. We, we don't care about.
37:38
We don't even make it into the movie.
37:39
Dude, He's, he's been written from history.
37:42
No, no, I'm joking. Of course he, the man should be
37:45
honoured on the Twin History podcast.
37:47
We'll dedicate this episode to his memory.
37:51
Yeah, we can do that. So the Mori and Wallace, I mean,
37:55
they're both after the Battle of Sterling.
37:58
Bridge. Yeah.
37:59
What happens after the Battle of Sterling?
38:00
Bridge. Well, I mentioned Wallace took
38:02
an army in England like Laura. It would have been around
38:05
Carlisle, places like that. So why did they go to England?
38:08
What was the the purpose? Just to show that the English
38:11
could be defeated on their own terms and on their own land.
38:15
But either NFL was shown as going as far as York.
38:18
He didn't get to York. Yeah.
38:20
There's no way he got that far down.
38:21
Yes. Because obviously his supply
38:24
line, yeah, there's no supply line by that point.
38:27
And as we know in war that that has been to the detriment of
38:32
many of an army when they're so far withdrawn from their supply
38:35
line. It's been they're undoing,
38:37
they're undoing. So the months after Sterling
38:40
Bridge, the Moray and Wallace are both like seeking to have
38:46
the sole leadership of the Scottish army.
38:48
But what happens to the Moray? He dies.
38:51
You already told us. I guess it's sepsis or
38:54
something. He.
38:55
Dies of some infection two months after the Battle of
38:59
Sterling Bridge, So after that. Wallace is given the title of
39:04
the Guardian of Scotland, so he's knighted and he's a
39:08
guardian. What does What is the Guardian
39:10
of Scotland? What did the role actually
39:12
involve? So he's just seen as the
39:14
defender of the Kingdom. So he is a very high position.
39:18
You're not quite keen, you're not quite part of the
39:21
aristocracy, but you are like you're basically, should we say,
39:27
the top civil servant in the land.
39:30
Wallace is knighted December 1297.
39:33
There's some people say he was knighted by Robert De Bruce
39:36
himself. Yeah, as is is shown in
39:38
Braveheart. Again, there's nothing to
39:41
substantiate that. But we do know from records that
39:44
Bruce, Robert De Bruce, was one of the few nobles in Scotland at
39:49
that time. OK, so the the Bruce is the
39:53
Robert. The Bruce is on the scene at
39:54
this point. So Robert the Bruce is on the
39:56
scene at this time, but don't think that Wallace is celebrated
40:00
by all all corners of Scotland because many of the nobility
40:04
have sworn loyalty to Longshanks and many of them are disturbed
40:10
by this uprising. But what aren't?
40:14
They shouldn't have thrown her weight behind Wallace.
40:16
He's shown that he's a brilliant military mind.
40:19
He's shown the English candidate can be defeated.
40:22
He's LED armies into England and defeated them on their own soil.
40:26
Why would the Scottish nobility not throw their weight behind
40:30
Wallace's cause? Well, we have to remember most
40:33
people are venal. Most people look out for
40:36
themselves, whether that be mediaeval times or whether that
40:39
be now. So they were mainly just
40:42
thinking about themselves, like if this if this happens and it
40:46
goes wrong, we might be destroyed by the English town.
40:51
Well, there's an order. There's a flip side to that
40:53
coin, my friend. If it, if it goes well, if it
40:57
goes right and they win, then they could profit even more,
41:02
right? Yeah, but there's also the
41:03
argument to be made that Flawless becomes so powerful
41:08
that he might become a dictator like Edward the 1st.
41:14
I don't think he would have been.
41:15
No, he would have been. He would have been, I mean.
41:18
I just that he's still loyal to John Bailey, who's alive at this
41:21
time. If Wallace If the nobles had
41:25
thrown their weight behind Wallace, their considerable
41:29
resources, then who's to say Wallace couldn't have?
41:32
Bested Longshanks? Yeah, if they had at that time,
41:36
maybe Scotland would have got its independence from England
41:40
long before Bannockburn in the years that followed.
41:44
Yeah OK so Wallace has LED an army entanglement is 1
41:49
skirmishes or battles on English soil, is knighted as the
41:54
guardian of Scotland. What happens after that?
41:58
So he, his army continues to grow.
42:00
And at this time, and this definitely wasn't in the movie,
42:03
Wallace introduced, introduces conscription and a lot of
42:07
Scottish times and those who refuse to be conscripted or
42:13
inducted him to the Scottish army with the face execution
42:19
hanging. OK, definitely hanging.
42:21
So that's obviously not in the movie.
42:24
Well, yeah, you have to leave that part out.
42:26
The man's a hero. So as we go on in the timeline,
42:29
Edward the First returns from France in March 1298.
42:36
On July of 1298, Edward the First the King, Leeds, 20,000
42:42
men. Who are part of his army into
42:45
Scotland OK it was good for him to show up this time yeah it's
42:49
good so he must have been in France during the battle of
42:52
sterling but maybe he was maybe he wasn't so but before before
42:57
Edward writes N did Wallace I've heard that Wallace sent letters
43:04
to France to the hissenic league and to orders to.
43:09
To ask for them to come to Scotland's aid and support them
43:12
in their independence fight against England.
43:16
Well, that that definitely happened in 1299.
43:20
Wallace personally went to France and went to Rome and
43:26
asked for assistance in the war against England.
43:30
It may have happened before then as well, but it definitely
43:32
happened in 1290. 9 But isn't it the There are some there's an
43:40
idea that Wallace perhaps travelled to France and Rome,
43:43
but it's never BeenVerified, am I not?
43:44
It's never even verified, but I think most historians accept
43:48
that he was in France and Rome and obviously he don't get any
43:53
support. He don't get any.
43:54
Support. He was like Richie Appeal when
43:57
he tried to lead the assassination attempt against
44:01
Tony Soprano and he couldn't get the support of the other
44:04
captains in the the family, the DeMille family.
44:08
OK, well, The Sopranos again. So.
44:11
So that's the army. I'm not allowed to talk about A
44:13
Song of Ice and Fire. I'm not allowed to talk about
44:15
Sopranos or Mad Men. But anyway, so so Edward rides
44:20
north in in July, right? Yeah.
44:23
So this army consisted of 10,000 Welsh soldiers.
44:28
Most of her would have been conscripted.
44:32
There's over 2 1/2 hours. Expert Archers or Bowman as they
44:36
would have been called. And at this as the time goes on
44:41
in, in in Scotland, there's talk of mutiny amongst the army
44:46
because again, going back to supply line, there's a scarcity
44:51
of food, of materials for the men.
44:53
Apparently a lot of Welsh soldiers mutinied and apparently
44:59
Edward was considering returning to England.
45:02
But then he made a stunning discovery on the day when he was
45:07
planning to go. What was that discovery?
45:09
The Scottish Army. What about it it?
45:13
Was led by Wallace was just over the border or sorry in the next
45:19
town in Falkirk. So Edward was in the was in the
45:23
area. So Edward was considering going
45:26
back to England and then word comes back to him that you don't
45:30
have to do that. Wallace is at Falkirk, which
45:34
would have been of course where Edward and his army were camped.
45:39
So on the 22nd of July 1298 we have the battle Falkirk.
45:45
OK, well let's talk a little about that battle.
45:49
OK, so Wallace during the battle deployed 4 large shelf.
45:54
Terms. OK, I don't know what that is,
45:57
but. Well, it's kind of.
46:00
It's basically you get a large group of men who are carrying
46:05
Pikes and you get them to form like a formation, a defence of
46:09
formation. So they all come together around
46:13
this, in this circle, in this formation, and they like hold
46:17
their Pikes above their heads. So if the cavalry charges, and
46:22
this is actually where they made the mistake in Braveheart, when
46:26
the cavalry charges at the Battle of Sterling, there many
46:30
of the horses and the men are killed by these large sheltrans.
46:34
Yeah, so the. Large steps, yeah.
46:36
So that that this is what Wallace said up at Falkirk.
46:39
So there's four large sheltrans. So they're also, again, they're
46:43
protected by a bog that the English have to advance over to
46:47
get to the Scottish where the Scottish army is.
46:51
So what goes wrong for Wallace? Well, to begin with, the
46:55
English, their first and second lines, their repulsed or
47:00
repelled I should say, by the bogs and the Sheltrans, one of
47:05
the English army leaders tried to in the first line, tried to
47:09
go over the bog. When you realise it was a
47:13
situation like Sterling Bridge, it was a trap.
47:15
It was a trap. They're all going to drown.
47:17
So he went back. But the second line just charged
47:21
forward, mainly like Welsh soldiers and Welsh cavalry,
47:26
sorry, not Welsh cavalry, Welsh infantry.
47:28
And they were like basically torn to pieces by your
47:32
children's. OK, so the this battle has gone
47:36
well for Wallace at this point. What what happens?
47:38
Well, it's going well in the Grapevine and Braveheart during
47:41
the Battle of Falkirk. And this is contemporary
47:44
accounts show this is what happened.
47:46
Obviously, the Scottish nobility, they have divided
47:50
loyalties. So many of them have always won
47:54
allegiance. The English king, they have
47:56
family in England. They have land in England.
47:58
They have titles in England so and Braveheart the the Scots are
48:03
shown and I I don't know if this was the case in reality but
48:08
they're shown as one in the battle and then Wallace makes a
48:14
signal for the Scottish nobles. With the flag.
48:17
To enter the battle and many of them, well, they all just right
48:22
away and leave the Scottish army to their fate.
48:25
And apparently that's what happened in real life.
48:28
So many of them refused to enter the battle.
48:31
Some of them showed honour and dead come in and enter the
48:35
battle. And those men who died were
48:38
killed in battle, The cavalry who came in.
48:43
From the nobility, so as are these noblemen showing up to the
48:48
are they showing up to this battle at Falkirk?
48:50
And they're I said like we spoke before their hedge and their
48:54
bets. They want to see how it's going
48:55
before they either commit to the battle or decide not to enter.
49:00
Well, that's a good question. We don't.
49:02
We can't say for sure. What they were thinking, but the
49:06
fact they turned up, you'd like to what's the point of like,
49:10
turning up like, Yeah, it makes it doesn't make much sense that
49:12
they, they brought their men there.
49:15
They assembled their men, raised their men and brought.
49:19
Yeah. And they brought them to the
49:20
battle only to decide, actually, we're not going to be involved.
49:25
Is it maybe. I mean, it's a last minute
49:28
decision where as you say, they could see, they could decide,
49:32
OK, this battle was not going to end well.
49:34
For yeah, could I not, could I make the suggestion that perhaps
49:39
well, the film was wrong. The battle was not going in the
49:43
Scots favour and that's why the men.
49:47
Yeah did not did not commit it did not get involved.
49:54
To bring up an order reference that you hate is similar to the
49:58
late Lord Free, Walter Free during the Battle of the
50:02
Trident. He only he only committed his
50:06
men to that battle when he knew it was gone in the the
50:09
rebellions favour. What was this from?
50:12
Doesn't matter. But I'm just saying.
50:17
So maybe that's what if the battle had been going on.
50:19
The Scots favour the nobility would have sent their their
50:23
cowardly, their men into battle. Well, they they would have been
50:27
riding them to battle themselves.
50:30
So some of them showed honour and entered the battle, but the
50:33
majority of them rode off and left to fight another day or
50:37
left another day. But So what?
50:40
We're going to always to show up with a giant ball and chain and
50:43
take off someone's head, OK? So the battle continues, but as
50:54
the Scottish infantry becomes more and more isolated or torn
51:00
apart by the marksmanship of Edwards Archers, so thousands of
51:05
them are are slaughtered by mainly by The Archers but also
51:10
by the by the English infantry. So as is shown in the battle,
51:18
like the arches come in the film that the arrows come like spiral
51:23
them down on them and then the infantry just run in.
51:26
So thousands of them were killed.
51:28
Wallace, obviously, then right after Edward, as as shown in the
51:32
film, I mean, he, he just fled for his life because if he'd
51:37
been captured, he would have been killed on the spot.
51:40
So he just, the battle was lost. He's a commander.
51:44
He he fled the site. So and the it's a stunning
51:49
victory at Sterling and it's a stunning defeat at Falkirk.
51:55
And what happens after Falkirk? So Wallace's title was the
51:58
Guardian of Scotland was removed, and who then takes up
52:03
that mantle? Against the Bruce, yeah, Robert
52:06
the Bruce becomes the new guardian of Scotland.
52:08
So Edward, he planned to continue the fight into
52:13
Scotland, but again, his supply lines are stretched to offend.
52:17
So after he retakes Sterling and other towns around Clydesdale
52:26
and there he returns to England. So is there also he returns
52:30
basically he's won the Battle of Falkirk, but he hasn't
52:34
destroyed. He's not quelled the rebellion.
52:37
He's not quelled the rebellion. But isn't there an argument of
52:41
if Edward had been at Sterling? There is no William Wallace.
52:45
We aren't sitting here talking about him today.
52:48
No, we wouldn't. I mean the Battle of Stirling
52:51
Bridge is like legendary and. But we've we've spoken about
52:56
Edward the first he was we mentioned it, I should the
53:00
operator is there not an argument that he could have
53:05
bested Wallace at Sterling and then that would have been the
53:09
end and we wouldn't, we wouldn't be sitting here speaking about
53:11
Warren Wallace. Well, maybe not, but we
53:13
definitely would have. I mean, he would have been
53:16
known. Because he killed the shadow for
53:18
Banner. Yeah, reported at the time.
53:21
And also because of the Battle of Sterling.
53:23
But we probably wouldn't be dead against English Garrison's.
53:26
So even if he'd been defeated at the Battle of Sterling, Brown G
53:30
would still there'd be no movie. There'd be no movie.
53:34
But we So he's lost at Falkirk. What does Wallace do next?
53:37
He's removed as a guardian of Scotland, replaced by the better
53:41
man, Robert the Bruce. And what happens next?
53:44
Wallace this is when we get reports or records show that he
53:48
travelled to both Rome and France.
53:50
This would have been 1299 to seek alliance against England,
53:55
but he's rebuffed. Also there's some people who say
53:58
that after the battle of Falkirk, because Wallace knew
54:02
that he was basically a dead man walking a dead man walking, that
54:07
he reached out to Edward the 1st for more lenient terms or for
54:13
some form of compromise. But obviously, Edward the First,
54:17
he might have been willing to deal with the Scottish nobility,
54:20
the Scottish aristocracy. Yeah, he let John Berlin off.
54:24
Yeah, but he, he was not prepared to deal with Wallace
54:28
because of all the basically what he'd inflicted on English.
54:34
He was not prepared to. See him as an equal.
54:37
He wouldn't spare him. He would not spare him.
54:39
There would be no clemency. No clemency so.
54:43
Wallace returns to Scotland after being on the Continent.
54:47
Records are to believe so. Again, he takes up arms against
54:51
the English. But then he's captured after
54:55
being betrayed by John Monteith. And this would be the 5th of
54:58
August. Are we certain that John
55:01
Monteith betrayed them? Because there's, well, it's not.
55:06
There's a lot of people who say it wasn't Monteith, it was
55:08
someone else. How certain can we be before
55:12
denigrating this man? Most historians agree it was
55:16
him. Most mediaeval historians agree
55:18
it was him. Wallace was called to mentees
55:21
his property near Glasgow under false pretences and as soon as
55:26
he's there he's turned over to an English battalion.
55:32
But isn't it similar to when two parts showed up to record the
55:36
record with Daddy and BIG and he got shot in the lobby of the
55:41
Record stadium and and he blamed those guys for.
55:46
It what he blamed BIG for it. Yeah, well, it may have been
55:50
similar to that, but not similar at all.
55:54
OK, go on. So Wallace, he's took to London,
56:00
there are some people, historians who claim that he as
56:05
he was travelling to London, he was took before Edward the First
56:08
himself. But again, if he was, there's no
56:11
record of that. So let's just say it didn't
56:14
happen because there's nothing to show it happened.
56:18
Yeah. I thought Edward probably saw,
56:21
would not have wanted to deal with that.
56:24
He would have saw his, you know, beneath him.
56:27
Yeah. So, so Wallace is to to
56:30
Westminster Hall. This is the 24th of August.
56:34
He's. Found guilty of treason.
56:37
So he's put on trial. It's not a trial.
56:39
He's denounced as a traitor. Doesn't get a chance to defend
56:43
himself, doesn't get a chance to shoot defend himself.
56:45
It's not as shown in the film Where, but how?
56:47
How could Wallace be a traitor though, when he's he's never
56:50
sworn fealty to Edward? And that's all we know of what
56:56
Wallace said during this. Hearing in Westminster Hall that
57:04
he said that he can't be a traitor because he's never sworn
57:08
allegiance to Edwards. So and.
57:10
How did English react to that? Don't know, don't know.
57:14
I mean that it was a far going conclusion that he was going to
57:18
be out of security. But he said that in the film he
57:23
says you're you've been found guilty of treason.
57:27
And and Mel Gibson or Wallace says like never in my life have
57:32
I sworn allegiance to him, me and Edward the first.
57:36
So. So he's never sworn fealty to
57:38
him. So he can't be.
57:38
So he can't be a traitor. Yeah.
57:40
But anyway, on the same day, he's he's actually good.
57:46
So on this very same day, they didn't even give him a a night
57:49
to sleep it off. No, so he he is to sleep it off.
57:55
So he's he's high, he's revived. His intestines are cut out.
58:03
They're burned in front of him. He's emasculated.
58:06
OK so you're saying he's the hormone they brought him back.
58:10
Yeah. Revived them cut out.
58:13
Was intestines emasculated on. One of the kids at school asked
58:16
what that was. I said ask your parents.
58:19
Yeah, we. We all know what emasculated
58:21
means on. Yeah.
58:23
And then he's finally beheaded. So one of the sources from the
58:29
time, and this is a verified sources from Edward, the first
58:34
record of the record, Edward the first, someone who worked for
58:40
Edward, the first record of the trial.
58:43
So unless they go into how much was paid on how much they spent
58:48
on executing Wallace, apparently it was a huge amount for an
58:51
execution. So they spared no expense.
58:54
They just wanted to make an example of them.
58:56
We wanted to make an example. So there, Edward said Wallace in
59:01
this, in this excerpt or in this official document that Wallace
59:07
was a traitor, he falsely sought to call himself King of
59:11
Scotland. But he never did that.
59:13
He never did so Oh, so doesn't it backfire, this brutal
59:20
execution that turns Wallace into a martyr?
59:22
Yeah, it turns Wallace into a martyr.
59:24
And if I may, could I read a quote from Michael Brown's
59:29
Awards of Independence? Of course.
59:32
So Michael Brown says, what is also striking is that since the
59:35
1470s, Wallace has been used as a model by Scots of almost all
59:40
political colours, including many who regarded the bandit as
59:44
an early champion of the British constitution.
59:48
So the current viewer which claims Wallace is a threat,
59:51
alive or dead, to kings and nobles who lacked his devotion
59:55
to the cause, should also be regarded with caution.
59:59
His limited role in official accounts of the words may
1:00:02
reflect not an effort to limit his achievement, but a
1:00:05
perception that this achievement was limited itself.
1:00:09
Wallace was an exceptional figure, but before Blind Harry
1:00:13
it has strike him that the best evidence for his importance
1:00:16
comes from the placeable hostility of Edward the First
1:00:20
towards a man who could not and would not negotiate his
1:00:24
submission. OK.
1:00:26
And this house, Wigan Wallace is a hero.
1:00:29
End of story. He's a he's a hero to all Scots.
1:00:34
But that quote is a fantastic quote and it shows that Wallace,
1:00:40
there's very little record of him.
1:00:42
Even during the wars of independence, very few of the
1:00:45
nobles wrote about him. And Brown says that was because
1:00:48
they don't want to overstate his role in the success of the wars
1:00:52
of independence because it undermines their own role in it.
1:00:56
But it also, and again, this is what I tell the kids, and you
1:01:01
also have to be wary of the sources of Wallace because many
1:01:06
of them have been compromised and many of them have been
1:01:12
wrapped in the mythology of the man and may not actually bear
1:01:17
any resemblance to fact. But you're certain he existed?
1:01:21
He definitely existed. I mean, there's records of them
1:01:24
killing the sheriff of Lamar, there's records of his
1:01:27
execution, there's records of Edwards.
1:01:29
The first animosity towards them, that's for certain.
1:01:34
There's records from both the Battle of Sterling Bridge and
1:01:38
the Battle of Falkirk. So we definitely existed, but we
1:01:44
just have to be careful. And that and that's what I do
1:01:47
when I go over it with the kids, like I show them three separate
1:01:50
sources and try and get them to pick out the one that's a
1:01:53
primary source, a secondary source, and maybe somewhere in
1:01:56
between. So the 1:00, somewhere in
1:01:58
between is Blind Party, which is where most of our information of
1:02:03
Wallace comes from. But it is sheer fantasy, that
1:02:08
poem. So we cannot use it as
1:02:11
historians as a a source, an authenticated source.
1:02:16
OK, OK, I understand that. So after Wallace's death, how
1:02:20
quickly does it does his death inspire those men in Scotland?
1:02:27
Well, it's not as quickly as it's shown in Braveheart cause
1:02:31
for some reason, I mean I love them the Braveheart.
1:02:33
Whereas it shows the battle banner burn, but it doesn't
1:02:36
actually happen as it's shown in the film where it's just a
1:02:39
spontaneous battle where Robert the Bruce is about to swear
1:02:46
allegiance or to the English to Edward the second.
1:02:50
Edward the Second was at Barnard burn, but he's not shown as
1:02:54
being at Barnard Burn in the film.
1:02:55
But he's there to accept Edward the Second endorsing this crime.
1:03:05
But then he just turns round to the Scottish army and says you
1:03:10
have bled with Wallace and I bleed with me and he just like
1:03:14
they just charged in the barrel. Well, that's not true.
1:03:18
They don't like Brendan Gleeson throws Wallace's sword up in
1:03:21
there and it Yeah, well, flies about 300 feet out of there and
1:03:24
lands perfectly in the the soil. So.
1:03:27
It's a great scene and Angus Mcfadgine plays it perfectly.
1:03:31
And when my wife and I watched the film together, we were both
1:03:35
in tears to that scene. I I love the look on his face
1:03:39
when he like draws his sword and he like screams and like leads a
1:03:44
charge into barrel. Who?
1:03:46
The Bruce, No. Yeah, the Bruce leads the charge
1:03:49
on the Scottish army into. Battle, but I'm assuming it
1:03:52
didn't happen like that. No, because obviously Babbling
1:03:54
Barn happened. Like how many years after
1:03:58
Wallace died? Like, was that nine years after
1:04:02
he died? So but the Bruce obviously led
1:04:04
to. He led the Scottish army, but it
1:04:07
wasn't spontaneous battle. We'd been building and building
1:04:09
for years. And they finally, like faced off
1:04:13
each against each other. Edward the Second and Robert the
1:04:16
Bruce of Bannockburn. But Scotland did 1 and I I love
1:04:19
the the wee narration from Mel Gibson at the end of the end of
1:04:25
the Battle of Bannockburn when what is it he says?
1:04:30
In the year of our Lord 1314, Scottish patriots, starving and
1:04:34
outnumbered, charged the field of Bannockburn.
1:04:38
They fought as warrior poets, They fought like Scotsman and
1:04:43
won their freedom forever. So it wasn't until 1320 when the
1:04:48
declaration of a growth was. Signed.
1:04:51
You know, like Wallace, you know, he might have been
1:04:54
executed and drawn and quartered, but I think his
1:04:58
biggest disappointment wasn't that he didn't see Scotland
1:05:01
become an independent country. I think his biggest
1:05:04
disappointment was he didn't see the publication of The
1:05:07
Canterbury Tales, which happened in 1392.
1:05:10
Yeah, well, I mean, he was. Like dead by all for 100 years
1:05:15
by that. Point So with The Canterbury
1:05:18
Tales, that's obviously we're going off topic, but it's it is
1:05:23
mediaeval literature. And with the I remember reading
1:05:26
a tweet from a lady who was an editor or she worked in some
1:05:29
publishing house. She said she went on a date with
1:05:31
a guy for their first date and she asked them what's your
1:05:34
favourite book? And the guy said The Canterbury
1:05:36
Tales, but it's obviously bullshit.
1:05:38
That's no one's favourite book, The Canterbury Tales.
1:05:40
I read that. I, I think there's 24 stories
1:05:43
and I got about halfway through. I was like, I can't read this.
1:05:46
But anyway. And then she said she recited
1:05:52
the, the opening prologue of The Canterbury Tales, which is about
1:05:56
17 pages. It's like, well, none of this
1:05:59
ever happened. But sadly for Wallace, he was
1:06:02
not around to see that publication of The Canterbury
1:06:05
Tales. But.
1:06:06
So we're we're going to presume that Wallace was literate.
1:06:12
We're also going to presume he was immortal, so.
1:06:15
Well, I mean, if you're speaking about I mean, it would have been
1:06:18
mediaeval, but I love the scene in seven when Brad Pitt was
1:06:24
trying to read all these books that John Doe the killer is into
1:06:28
him. You see him in his car and he's
1:06:30
like, was it? He says, like Milton poet Ryan
1:06:33
before the book the way. But yeah, so we could maybe
1:06:37
quickly go into. What?
1:06:38
It was transfer anyway, Who wrote Canterbury Tales?
1:06:40
Not Milton. Yeah, go on.
1:06:43
Milton wrote Paradise last. Yeah, I know that.
1:06:45
But we're talking about Canterbury.
1:06:47
'S tales, right? OK, let's go into maybe
1:06:50
Wallace's legacy, but very quickly, like a few.
1:06:53
Minutes. Yeah, Well, let's go.
1:06:54
Let's talk about Wallace's legacy and then I will lead
1:06:59
those out. OK.
1:07:00
So obviously, I mean, I didn't know who Bowen Wallace was until
1:07:07
Braveheart came out. And I think a lot of Scottish
1:07:09
people of our generation wouldn't have.
1:07:12
So you have to give Mel Gibson his Jew on that and Randall
1:07:16
Wallace the screenwriter. And although there's so many
1:07:19
historical inaccuracies in the film, too many to go into, I
1:07:24
mean, we'll just maybe the most egregious one.
1:07:27
The battle was stored on bridge without the bridge.
1:07:29
Queen Isabella of France having a love affair with Wallace.
1:07:34
When when I watched the film, I actually just stepped through
1:07:37
those scenes because they were just so absurd.
1:07:41
The relationship between Wallace and the Queen of France, who was
1:07:44
a child at the time, who was actually in France at the time.
1:07:47
But she she did marry Edward the second eventually, and she was
1:07:54
involved in his overflow and his murder.
1:07:57
But obviously the film doesn't go into that.
1:07:59
So there's many egregious moments in the film, but it's a
1:08:03
very rousing film. I mean, it's an incredibly well
1:08:07
shot film. The cinematography's incredible.
1:08:11
James Horner's music is absolutely beautiful.
1:08:15
It's one of the best scores ever written and.
1:08:19
He did the score for aliens too. He did aliens either Glory.
1:08:23
Yeah, we're going to do something on in the 54th.
1:08:25
But anyway, let's not go down that path just now.
1:08:27
But So what? So that is part of his legacy.
1:08:32
Obviously you've got the Wallace Monument in Sterling.
1:08:36
Which movie was that recently used in?
1:08:38
Netflix movie. I have no idea.
1:08:41
Frankenstein what? Really used it in Frankenstein.
1:08:45
The Wallace Monument. Yeah, they used the wall, the
1:08:47
monument. That's where he builds the
1:08:50
monster. OK, yeah, I hear you.
1:08:52
This obviously doesn't look like that.
1:08:53
It doesn't have a big lock around it.
1:08:55
Yeah, that that. But yeah, so Wallace's sword is
1:08:59
there. It's probably not as big as the
1:09:02
one in the movie. No, I mean, I don't think it's
1:09:05
actually a sword. Some people say the metal Post
1:09:08
Dates has the metal the sword was made of.
1:09:11
Post Dates lost his death by like 200 years.
1:09:15
Yeah, most likely. And Hewitt Cresenham's the man
1:09:20
who was flagged at Stirling Bridge.
1:09:22
They have his like armour. They have that.
1:09:27
All I say is if you're, if you've got Vertigo, don't go
1:09:29
'cause I have Vertigo. My wife and I went last summer
1:09:33
and I was almost sick on the way up.
1:09:35
And the thing that made it worse was there's wee slits in the
1:09:38
side of the monument which must have been used to repel attacks,
1:09:41
like Archers could fire from it. And you can see like the
1:09:46
basically the the drop to the ground from those slits.
1:09:50
So that makes it even worse for me.
1:09:52
OK, you're not trying to be sure, but anyway.
1:09:56
But Wallace is obviously the ultimate symbol of Scottish
1:10:00
independence. Years of Scottish freedom from
1:10:02
the wars of independence and that that's he was a hero.
1:10:08
I mean, he's a flawed hero. If you look at the hangings of
1:10:13
those conscripts who refused to be inducted into the Scottish
1:10:18
army. Obviously I don't know why he
1:10:23
after the Battle of Stirling Bridge with Andrew de Mori,
1:10:27
Diane Wallace was buying for out right leadership of the army
1:10:32
when the man was dying and the man had contributed so much to
1:10:37
the cause. But he took on the English and
1:10:42
ultimately, as you said, he didn't live to see the English
1:10:44
defeated, but he best, he basically set Scotland on the
1:10:48
path to becoming independent at that time from England until the
1:10:56
Union in 1707. Yeah, I think with with
1:10:59
Wallace's is whether every story about them told about them is
1:11:06
true or not, doesn't worry about the the record of what he did.
1:11:10
And this idea of this man who refused to bend and who led his
1:11:15
country in a rebellion against an army that vastly outnumbered
1:11:21
them. And ultimately, as you said, he
1:11:25
wasn't around to see Scotland become an independent country,
1:11:28
but without Wallace, that never happens.
1:11:30
So. Yeah, it definitely doesn't
1:11:33
happen. I could read another quote from
1:11:35
Michael Brown about that if you want.
1:11:37
Yeah, one more quote and then we'll finish up, please.
1:11:40
The way in which Edward pursued his rights as Overlord suggests
1:11:44
at the very least, a determination to reduce the
1:11:46
Scottish realm to a mere faith within his dominions.
1:11:51
The reaction of the Scottish leaders between 1294 and 1297
1:11:55
was an actual respond to unprecedented direction and
1:11:59
interference in their affairs by the English king.
1:12:03
However, this response and the earlier statements of the
1:12:06
collective rights and liberties of the Scottish community were
1:12:08
undermined by divisions within that community.
1:12:12
Edward exploited these divisions, but he did not create
1:12:15
them. Instead, they were the product
1:12:17
of aristocratic rivalries fueled by a competition for the
1:12:21
kingship, which Edward's judgement had not fully ended.
1:12:25
In the coming years, the royal title and rights which Edward
1:12:28
has sought to expunge would remain both a source of the
1:12:31
vision for the Scots and the focus of their claim to be a
1:12:34
separate realm. So when Wallace emerges, he is
1:12:39
able to, for want of a better word, slice through these
1:12:45
divisions and have a clear and concise reason for Scottish
1:12:51
separation from the English, without the constraints of
1:12:56
wanton kingship, of wanton titles, of wanton to be
1:13:01
recognised as the most important person within the country.
1:13:06
So this is where his brilliance as a leader, a leader of men and
1:13:12
as a person, This is why he's the most important figure in the
1:13:17
Scottish wars of independence in my opinion.
1:13:21
OK, I'll just say to what you said.
1:13:23
Obviously Edward was willing to deal with other Scots, other
1:13:29
nobility who had risen against them, but the fact that he
1:13:33
absolutely refused to compromise with Wallace shows that Wallace
1:13:39
was the martyr in chief of the Scottish wars of independence
1:13:45
movement. It probably wouldn't have
1:13:47
happened. Is that the quote?
1:13:50
No, that's me. Speaking OK, so you must know
1:13:52
what the difference between. OK, so that's the end of our
1:13:58
two-part series on William Wallace.
1:14:00
Johnny, do you have anything to say?
1:14:02
Yeah, I would just say that he has one of our great heroes.
1:14:07
I mean, Robert Bruce is kind of shafted and Braveheart, until
1:14:12
then, he's shown as being a traitor, A traitor, A
1:14:17
vacillating individual. I mean some people, there are
1:14:20
some accounts that he was actually at the Battle of
1:14:23
Falkirk as is shown in the film, but he obviously wasn't there as
1:14:27
a knight protecting the English king as is depicted in the film.
1:14:31
He was in the English reserve army.
1:14:34
So if they had been needed, he might have been taken up arms
1:14:37
against the Scottish army, but at no point that he like fight
1:14:42
on the side of the English as as shown in the film.
1:14:45
But he was definitely he would have been like close.
1:14:50
He would have been in proximity during the Battle of Falkirk and
1:14:53
he would have been fight him as part of the English army if he
1:14:58
if he had been needed. If he was called upon, but he
1:15:01
wasn't. Yeah.
1:15:02
So all I would say is mediaeval history is is fascinating.
1:15:06
It's not my strongest point. It's not very.
1:15:11
Yeah, we can tell. Where like that I studied, but
1:15:17
it's still it's a fascinating period in our history.
1:15:21
So hopefully from this you want to learn more about, well,
1:15:24
Wallace, or as much as you can, because there's very little
1:15:28
known about the man. It's a 3 hour movie that you can
1:15:31
watch on Netflix. What's the movie Braveheart?
1:15:35
Is it on Netflix? I don't know.
1:15:36
It's on. It's definitely on Disney.
1:15:38
It's on some streamer. You can watch it.
1:15:40
So if you want to know what you need to know about the man, just
1:15:43
watch that movie. Well, you'll learn more from
1:15:45
that than you would ever learn from a terrible podcast.
1:15:49
Thank you for laying it all out for us, Johnny.
1:15:52
And well, I tried my best. And for Disparage and Mel
1:15:54
Gibson, well. I mean, I, I'm not disparaging
1:15:58
him as a filmmaker or an actor. I mean his his movies.
1:16:02
It's not. I don't think anyone has kept
1:16:05
their nose clean as much as Mel Gibson has in the last 50 years.
1:16:10
He's never been in the press for any scandals or controversies.
1:16:14
Leave the man alone. Leave the man alone.
1:16:17
He makes a film that brings in millions of tourists to Scotland
1:16:21
and you're disparaging them. Well, I'm not disparaging them.
1:16:24
Obviously he's had his. Mel, you can come in now.
1:16:28
He's. Had this trouble with the law.
1:16:31
You don't like those old time bags, do you?
1:16:34
He's had this. Trouble with the Law, But
1:16:35
obviously you can't doubt him as a filmmaker.
1:16:40
I mean, Apocalyptic was a great film, but what, what historian
1:16:45
sitting across the table hasn't had their trouble with the law?
1:16:48
All right, shall we say goodbye? Yeah, we'll say goodbye.
1:16:52
Johnny, do you want to do a brave hurt quote to take us out?
1:16:55
Not that quote, though. What?
1:16:58
Do you mean a Braveheart quote? A quote from Braveheart, but not
1:17:02
that one that everyone does. OK, if we OK, I'll do a
1:17:06
Braveheart quote. Jesus Christ.
1:17:08
Well, let's go if. We unite.
1:17:10
We can win. If we win, we'll have something
1:17:13
none of us have ever had before, a country of our own.
1:17:18
OK, we will have a country of our own and we hope you enjoyed
1:17:21
this podcast. Yeah, See you next time, guys.
1:17:24
Bye. See you next time.
1:17:26
Bye bye. The Twin History Podcast is a
1:17:37
Lost Cosmonauts production produced by me Virag Estertout.
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Additional producers are Dale McGoldrick, Johnny McCann and
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Joe McCann. Written by Johnny McCann and Joe
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McCann, Original music and score by Kevin McCloud.
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The podcast is available wherever you get your podcast.
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You can find us on Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, and Tic Tac
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under the handle Death Twin History Pod.
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You can e-mail us at deathtwinhistorypodcast@gmail.com.
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Thanks for listening. Music.