Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller Docu: 4 Girls Murdered in a Yogurt Shop. 2 Coerced Confessions. 34 Years to Uncover the Truth

Transcript

Killer Thriller Docu: 4 Girls Murdered in a Yogurt Shop. 2 Coerced Confessions. 34 Years to Uncover the Truth · Legally Brunette

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys, it is Jen Bessler back with another episode
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: of Killer Thriller.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: You guys.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: This one is a lot of things. It's upsetting, it's
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: a nerving and it's also really really sad and actually
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: sort of hits close to my heart. I graduated from
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: the University of Texas at Austin in nineteen ninety and
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine I worked at and I can't
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: believe it's yogurt store. So I know I was freaking
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: out when I watches you guys because the Yogurt Shop Murders,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: of course, is focused around four girls who were murdered
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: were who were working at a yogurt store in Austin
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Right, So anyway, we are so lucky.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: The documentary is unbelievable and we have director Margaret Brown
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: here who is going to talk to us and help
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: us to unravel this crazy, unbelievable story.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Sad, all of it. But thank you so much. Hi,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Hi Margaret, Nice to see you.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: Nice to see you too. I'm still getting over the
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: fact that you worked and I did what.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not only did I the layout of the store
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: was just like mine. Mine was closer to campus and
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: so I don't know why I didn't remember the story,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: and you know, I watched the documentary I had like
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: a vague recollection, and I started to freak out and
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: I called my husband. At first, I was the timing.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I was like, holy shit, it was crazy and anyway,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: so yeah, that was that was a little flippy, but
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: even yeah, get me for a minute.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: This story is crazy and sad and all the things.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Tell me.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: What first drew you to this story? And I know
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: you've done some other beautiful work. What was it about
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: the yogurt chop murders? You know, while he's thirty years
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: later that drew you to it?
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah? It was. I mean, I'm going to still be
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: thinking about what you told me about working there, but
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: I'm going to try to put that in the back
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: of my mind.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I'm you can I appreciate it. I won't, but you try.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's yeah, definitely. So a few things. My it
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: was it was brought to me by my manager because
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: I lived in Oben, and so I think she thought
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: I would have a personal connection to it. And there
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: were really two things. I looked at the archival footage
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: and it was really like it reminded me of a
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: time in Austin when when I didn't live there, but
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: just like that sort of had been mythologized in my
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: mind of like a time when Austin was kind of
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: a more innocent, different, non techie place.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, it was that it was like we were, like,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: you know, out on sixth Street and swimming in the
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: creek and it was a different scene. Yeah.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, all that still happens, I think, but
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: like there's a lot of other stuff too, and there's
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: just so many people here now, And I think it
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: was just the footage was so interesting to kind of
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: almost be drawn back into that. That was one part
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: of it. And then another part was just that I
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: had heard about it for so many years living here
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: on and off, and people would talk about it almost
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: like Claire Hughey says in the documentary, like a ghost story.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: As a young woman, you kind of hear these things
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: and it makes you scared. And and I think I
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: sort of it was like part of the sort of
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: mythos of Austin in a way. So and then there
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: actually are three things. Because my best friend is a
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: she works a lot in the true crime old she's
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: a she's a journalist, and she said to me when
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: I said I was thinking about doing it that she
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: was like, Oh, that's the most complicated case with the
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: most rabbit holes and like the history of Texas, like
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: that is so complicated, you'll never be able to do
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: it in less than ten episodes, And so I kind
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: of took it as a challenge. She's like, it's impossible.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: So yeah, there was more than one time during the
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: film and the documentary where you guys said that's when Austin.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: People felt like that's when Austin lost its innocence after
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: these mergers, right, which makes sense, and.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: The girls being so young.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: And it feeling pointless and it didn't make sense for
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: so long so and not be able obviously to solve
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: it for so many years.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I thought, by the way, we'll get there.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: But the fact that the last episode was added just
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: recently was crazy.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Yes, it was three weeks. I mean, I know, we'll
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: get there, but three weeks after it aired on HBO,
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: the crime was solved.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: So it was I mean, that is so nuts, I know, right,
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: you know in a central theme of of the documentary
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: is memory, right, and how memory? And I actually I
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: learned a lot myself about how memories are formed, what happens,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: how your brain searches to connect memories right to things
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: that did happen and things that didn't happen.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: What do you Why do you feel like it was
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: such a central theme.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if it was because of the prosecution
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: of the innocent boys.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a lot of it was just the
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: confessions and how they had sort of use the confessions
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: against them to say memory works in a certain way
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: when it actually doesn't. And I learned a lot too
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: making it, like you know, looking at the memory experts
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: that Claire Huey had interviewed over the years, and and
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: and also like you know what the defense attorneys what
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: they had to learn about how memory worked to defend
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: their clients, the boys who work right.
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: So that was super interesting.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: And also you know how memory works alongside grief. I
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: mean one thing I didn't talk about when and very
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: naive of me, I think when I when I decided
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: I'd never done true crime before, and when I no, no,
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: this was not I kind of make films that are
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: about the American South. I didn't really realize what like
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: the grief aspect of it like what like when I
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: met the families, how much this gets in your body,
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: you know, and how I didn't because I hadn't worked
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: in true crime before. I didn't know like what it
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: was like to sit with family members who had gone
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: through I mean really the most unimaginable thing that could.
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: Have you how to get you to trust them?
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: Also, Yeah, for sure, and and I think that, yeah,
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: it was. It was quite a lesson like I won't
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: make I won't, I won't do that again, think about
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: like the emotional toll it can have on on telling,
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: you know, telling these kinds of stories, Like I don't
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: know how other true crime directors do, and.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: I often wonder that myself.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: And that is what we do hear on Killer Thriller
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: is interview people involved in directors and sometimes even victims
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: or family members, And yeah, I don't it's hard enough
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: just to watch them sometimes, right, Yeah, But there were
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: so many parts of this that I thought were extraordinary
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: things that stuck out to me. You started off this
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: documentary pretty close to the beginning with I believe it's
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Robert Springsy buying a suit and you know, saying to
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: the salesperson, I just got off of death row. And
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: you also showed at one point one of the classmates
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: talking about how he was so freaky, how I and
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: looking at him, he looked a little scary, just the
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: whole sort of presentation right, the whole way he was
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: moving around Macy's. And the way that maybe he said
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: it to the sales guy freaked me out.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really did.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: And I think also maybe because of what his classmate
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: had said about him, that they couldn't was he a
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: good kid? Was just he was just a scary kid?
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: And how that jump right from that, which is benign?
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Really who care and what somebody looks like and the
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: way one moves as opposed to them becoming a murderer,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: that the way I don't know if everything worked against
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: those boys, right, which is so sad and so awful,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: but especially at the beginning, I was and what I
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: was so surprised by the turn that this the story
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: took because I was convinced myself that these boys did it.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that like these were the
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: kind of kids who like went to Rocky Horror Picture Show.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which was huge. Baton you said that in the film.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's when people did that wasn't. I mean, yes,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: it was certain I guess it was fringe kids, but
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: it was. My remembrance of it is that it was
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: really cool kids who would get dressed up and do
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: but they weren't like, they weren't dangerous and no.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: But I think at the time, like in Austin, like
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: you know, the cops went after like people in black,
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: Like a bunch of my friends were targeted.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Are you seriously got the yeah?
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like people. I mean I didn't know that then
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: because I didn't live here. But when I went back
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: and started talking to people who are like in the
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: music scene in Austin, they were like, oh, yeah, everyone
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: we know got pulled in by the cops because they
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: were weirdos, you know. And I think Robert Springsteen and
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: those boys kind of fit that profile, you know.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Right, the creek full of it, all right, I mean yeah,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: And honestly it was so that that bias that comes
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: hopefully and then affected, you know, these boys lives. It's
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: just there are so many different parts of this that
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: are tragic. It's the it's the story itself. It's the
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: age of these young girls. It's a mother losing you know,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: two children and she was still she still was so compassionate.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: And then there were the other parents that just wanted
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: answers and didn't care. You understood that because their brief
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: was so intense. They're just it was so multi layered,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: right that I just didn't know who to feel, like,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: who in this is the good guy?
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Who's the bad guy? It was just so sad.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think that there's many bad guys
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: here except for obviously a killer. And I think, like,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: you know, I do think that like there's some tunnel
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: vision involved, definitely on the part of the cops. But
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: also I think a lot of the cops are really
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: well meaning and trying to do their job. I mean,
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: I definitely don't. It's really interesting that when I filmed
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: the Airs family talking about how they felt about the boys,
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: and and I think Sean Yers he says he's he
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: is the older brother of the youngest victim Ami, and
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: he says, I, I don't, you know, don't I haven't
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: really gotten to that yet. And I do think it's
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: unfair and and and it's been interesting to watch the
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: response in on social media because people are really judgy
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: about that, and that is not my intention. Because I
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: I really felt like you realize something when you're making
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: this is like you can only process so much at
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: a certain time. And these families had been told by
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: the police for you know, a really long time that
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: these boys did it, and I have to expect them
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: in like two months to I don't know, I don't
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: I think that's a lot to ask.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: And it was.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was interesting because Sonora you know, said to
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: me when she saw the episode, she is the she
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: is the sister of Eliza Thomas, and she's a therapist.
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: Now, yeah, I love it.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: I thought I thought she was her relationship to her sister,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: the way she blocked out so much of that part
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: of her life. It was so sad hearing about even
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: how they got the information and they just didn't talk
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: They just kept moving awful.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: Well, well, yes, like so she said to me, I
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: was so relieved to see the errors say that, because
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: I felt like I was bad to not have room
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: for that yet in my heart, to still be grieving
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: my sister. And I just think it's like because we
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: talked about it a lot on theatorial team and like
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: with the with the you know, with the cinematographer and
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: the producer. We were all like, I just think that,
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: like you carry this for so long, because we were
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: sort of shocked at first as well that like literally
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: all the family members were like, I haven't gotten to
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: that yet, but it just seems like that's just sort
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: of how humans mostly work, you know, But I try not.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, I definitely don't judge that, like, and I
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: was really surprised at how people who you know on
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: the internet, who hadn't gone through something like that. I mean,
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: maybe I'm not surprised, but I was saddened by the
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: fact that, like people were so quick to judge them.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: You know what it was. I don't judge them for anything.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I was sad.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: There was so much sadness that I had first for them.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: And you know, if it's a contest, which it is not,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: daughters died, right, and then these boys that were wrongfully
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: accused so that spent years in jail.
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: The whole thing is so overwhelmingly sad. And sometimes I
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: feel like when you there's no place to put any
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: blame and there's this is just what it is. I
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: think probably don't have room to take it all in,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: as I did feel so sick for those boys.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, of course I feel sick for them too. I mean,
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: I definitely I remember when they found the killer, the
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: real killer, because I never really thought the boys did it,
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Like I wondered, but I just with all the evidence
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: or no evidence, like no real concrete evidence and their
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: DNA not matching, come on, you know, but I still
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: wondered because I didn't know who it was, and like,
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: you know, there are some weird similarities, but they were
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: so small compared to the lack of evidence that I
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: really didn't think they did it. And but to have
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: that hanging over you and knowing you didn't do it,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: and for this long and knowing, like you know, the
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: gun doesn't match, Like there's all these things that like,
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: you know, we're not we're not good, you know, we're
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: not good things to like basically set someone up and
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: convince them that they murdered somebody.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Talk about memory and the fact that these prosecutors and
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: these they could actually plant memories in the minds of
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: these boys that were not there, and that.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Was so scary.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the struggle to kind of reach back into their
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: memory because they believed that these were the good guys, right,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: that the people that were interrogating them, and I understand that.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I mean I think that, like I didn't
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: know before I made this that cops could lie to you.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't either. I've heard it. It's not true.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Recently in another documentary that we did, we talked about it.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: But it seems so crazy, right, like right, and back
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: in the day, not knowing just to say, lawyer, lawyer, lawyer,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: like right, that's the only thing you're supposed to say.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: It's the only thing. And now I know why. Yeah,
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: but yeah, it's it's it's an interesting legal system that
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: we have here in this country. But I you know,
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: I'm I yeah, I just to go back to what
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: you said about just how much you felt for the boys,
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Like I the minute it was solved, I was like
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: that that I have to talk to them. I have
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: to see And we didn't have much time, like HBO
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: wanted us to finish that last episode like yesterday. Like
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: at first they were like, just make a coda, and
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: then it turned into an hour and a half episode.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: You know, but because it was so interesting, there were
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: so many like things to look at that like, you know,
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: we knew we had we had two days to set
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: up the first shoot. When we found out that, you know,
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: they they had found who did it, that.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Must have freaked you out. I want to know what
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: that was like when you got that phone call.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: Well, the news was leaked to me and and I
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: was driving, I was leaving Austin to go make another movie,
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: and I had met with Dan Jackson, who was the
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: detective who solved it a few days before that, and
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: he was acting really shifty, and I knew something was
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: up because we've met so many times and there was
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: always like something he was following up with, and so
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: there were many times he was like, we might have something,
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: and then it never was anything. But this time his
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: body language was different, and I was like, he was shifty.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: He was like fidgeting, like he wanted to tell me something,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: because we at this point, like I knew him really well,
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: like we've been working together for years and you know,
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: and I could tell there was something he was like
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: really wanted to tell me, and I was like, but
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to push him because he said something again,
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: he said, this is something. If it's real, I have
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: to tell the families first, and I was like, he's
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: never said that before, and so I didn't push him
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: because I also really feel for the families, and I
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: was I think Dan is a moral person, and I
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: felt like, all right, I'm not going to push him.
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: That seems like a good line to draw, you know,
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: So I just was like okay, and then I said, well,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: is it okay for me to leave? Like is this
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: going to happen in the next few days, because like
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: I am, I am leaving Austin. I'm like getting in
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: my car, I'm driving my dog to another city, you know,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: like tell me, tell me the deal. And he was like, no, no, no,
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: you can leave, and so I left and then two
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: days later solved. But I don't think he knew that.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Like it was a sure thing.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, he definitely didn't know. I mean,
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: I think he knew at that point. And you should
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: talk to him if if that's part of this that
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: you want to do, because you know, I think he
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: really he really did want to tell me. But I
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: think he was Righty, this is something you have to
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: tell these families. First. They have been known who did
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: it for thirty four years. He shouldn't tell me, you know.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like if that hadn't happened the How
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: do you feel like your viewers would have been left
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: off without the fifth episode? What do you think that
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: most of them? How do you think most of them
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: would have felt.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think, you know, for three weeks everyone
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: felt it, but like I think what the way that
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: it ended before was just about how a lot of
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure for your show, not everything gets solved,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: you know, And how do you live with uncertainty? How
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: do you live with never knowing? There's so many things
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: in life that are like that. And you know, when
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: I took this job, I took it. I never thought, oh,
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: I'm going to solve our murder. That's like so arrogant,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: you know. I thought, like, I'm going to look into this.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: I'm going to figure out what it is about this.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: It's interesting to me. And eventually what was interesting to
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: me was, you know, we all as humans, like, no
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: one has escapes grief. You know, people you love die,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: things are horrible, Yeah, no, yeah exactly. So I thought, like, Okay,
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: this thing that happened to these people is one of
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: the worst things that can happen to anyone, And what
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: if this show is an examination of how you deal
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: with the unknowable, the unspeakable. Like, so it became sort
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: of to me and the reason I made it, because
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: for everything I make, it had there has to be
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: like a reason, you know, I don't, I don't know,
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: I didn't. I'm not interested in like the mechanics of
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: solving crimes as much as I am about human emotions.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: And so for me, the who'd done it was never
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: as interesting as all the psychological whys and hows and
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: so yeah, yeah, exactly, So like so you understand, I
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: didn't think. I didn't think that it would be a
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: waste of a show in any way because I still
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: get to ask these deeply human questions like these are
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: the things that like our lives revolve around. So for me,
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: the last episode became about what happens when you go
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: from uncertainty to certainty, and so that was like what
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: it you know, with the boys, with the families and
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: with the case. So that's sort of how I built
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: the fifth episode because I felt like the way the
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: series ended before, I mean, it was to me, it
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: was it was, it was a full thing.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I just it's hard to picture it without
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: the fifth episode just as a viewer.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: But I think that the documentary is.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: The true crime documentaries that I really get the most
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: out of are ones where I watch, you know, the victims'
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: families or whoever they've left behind, the way that they
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: respond to such horror. But then also the resiliency, right,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: and how watching a mother who lost two daughters, yeah,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: and still held on to such love and kindness in
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: her heart.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: That's the way.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was just that part is unreal to me,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: and that's I feel like it's not this was not
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: just about you know, the horror of what happened. It's
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: about it was about the human condition, right, and then
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: also examining, examining though our process, our due process, and
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know how it stands now and what laws
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: have changed or going to change in terms of prosecutors
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: being able to lie to try to set people up.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: And that's the yeah, well the first but but the
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: first prosecutor, Hector Blanco, Yes, I don't know where he
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: is today, still lives in athe he does, but I
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: mean he was sort of taking down and I feel
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: like so his protocol was you know, definitely railed, against
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: which I appreciate.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: Oh, you need to show right, he.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Was taken off the case, right because.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: He's for sure, Yeah he got multiple confessions from multiple people.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Come on, you know, which doesn't right.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: So, but that idea that somebody is so good because
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: they can evoke a confession that's not even right, just
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: so scary all of that.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: But I like this examined that right, like you didn't.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: There was so much to it.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: There was so much about of course the heartache and
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the trauma, but then also sort of insight into what
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: happens when something like this happens.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I it's horrific. And actually there is
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: an investigation. I don't know where it stands right now,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: but I do know that there's people are realizing he
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: got a lot of confessions, and not just in the
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: yogurt shot murders. Really oh yeah, there's an investigation into
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: him in Austin right now. I'm not sure where it stands.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Wow, that is I mean so like that's a perfect
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: example of you know, not just looking at what happened,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: but making a difference. And that's I see the families
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: of the victims doing that all the time, and all
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: these different documentaries there inspiring me.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I'm just amazed by.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: It is amazing I was amazed when when Barbara, the
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: mother of the two girls that were that were killed,
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: she said, I wonder what happened to the killer when
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: he was young? Was he held enough? And I was like,
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: whoa unreal?
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Unreal?
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: And then I think about you know, Maurice and Forrest,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: and are you in contact with.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: Any of Yeah, of course no. The so I don't
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: know if you know this, but there was a settlement
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: for I believe it's thirty I'm I can't believe. I
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: can't remember this right now. I think it's thirty five
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: million dollars that's going to the boys. It could be
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: twenty five. And the day that went down, forrest mom,
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: Sharon contacted me and she was like, I was. I
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: was in New York at the time and working, and
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: she was like, do you want to come to Forest Bar?
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: Like I'm making cookies for everyone at the bar, and
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: I'm like God, she was like, come so celebrate with us.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: And then I spoke to Forrest and it had not
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: hit him. He he was like, I was like, hey,
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: are you going to go on vacation? Because he was
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: always working a ton. He was always at the bar,
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: and that bar is a place we don't really go
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: into it, but that bar is definitely a place where,
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: like you know, his mom like makes soup for everybody
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: one night of the week, and it's a place where
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: people who don't have anywhere to go for holidays, like
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: they cook for them. It's like really a good vibe
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: at that bar and real Yeah, and and so they've
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: just they've been really nice to me. And I know that,
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: uh that I think the settlement has not moved forward
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: completely and I could be I'm not sure. Again, this
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: was like a few weeks ago that I heard this,
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: because I think that some of the family members will
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: not accept the money until you should check this, but
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: I heard from very reputable sources they wouldn't accept the
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: money until like some changes were made. So I don't
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: really stands either. Yeah, so yeah, it's interesting.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: How are they living.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: I don't underst I mean all of all of the families,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: and not just you know, the boys' families, the girls' families.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: And you think to yourself, I don't know how they're
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: going on. I don't know if I if I in
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: fact could go on right. So I am really interested
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: you were able to show us, you know, the I
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: don't even know. So I don't know if it's brave
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: or just the resilience of the parents, right of these girls,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: but then also the families of the boys, and how
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: are they going on? They still did, they still care?
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: It is with them, of course they do.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because some people still think they did it, Like
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: I think that that businessn't just go away overnight, like
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: not everyone has seen the documentary and people in Austin
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: have thought so long that they did it. And you know,
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: like that's why Robert Springsteen left, you know, and like
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: I think it's it's something that always hangs over you.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: And Forrest is surrounded by I was able to witness
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: that Forrest is surrounded by a lot of love and
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: that made me happy. But it's still as you see
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: in the show, like was it just damaged him so
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: deeply because anytime he tried to get in a relationship
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: he had to tell.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Whoever he was right, it wasn't this burder over him? Yeah,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: and what would we do?
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: And if my daughter said, Mom, I'm I.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Just could die. So I know it's how you do
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: with that. I don't think there's a right thing, No,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, you.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: Know, I think like I don't know if I'd be
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: able to date someone that I thought, well, they probably
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: didn't do it, but no, yeah, you would always have
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: that question.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Now it's just so awful. Yeah, does he manage that?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: How do they manage it?
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, I mean I haven't gone down to the
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: I've only been back in Austin a few weeks. I
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: haven't gone onto the bar to celebrate with them, but
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: but it but I plan on it, like just going
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: down there to see how everyone's doing, and no one
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: else lives in Austin, so and also, like usually it's
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: I feel really grateful because we made the fifth episode
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: so quickly that the families, you know, that we were
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: able to speak to Maurice's family even though he's passed,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: and we were able to speak to Forrest, and I
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: spoke a bit to Mike Scott at the exoneration hearing.
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: But I never Robert Springsteen. I think it's just too
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: traumatized to want to talk to a film crew. But
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: it's just so interesting because you you know, I mean,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: usually you have time to like talk to these people
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: and get to know them. But that was just so
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: quick and and I feel sort of the same way
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: about the in terms of like, you know, the families
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: we we for the fifth episode, we interviewed them right
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: after all this happened, like they were all still in shock.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: I remember asking Sonora Thomas, the sister, younger sister of Eliza,
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: asking her, like, you know, should we be talking to
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: you right now? And she was like absolutely not, like
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: you know the place the families need time to recover
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: after this and everyone right now, like when something like
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: this happens, you just bring them like you know casse
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: Roles for a year, like she was basically like talked
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: to us.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: And it was also yeah, it was really she was
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: captivating and I think partially because she is a therapist now.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: Right, yes, she's a therapist.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: So what I also thought that you did really beautifully.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: I'm sure there's so much footage of these girls when
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: they were young, but the footage that you chose specifically
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: just now I'm thinking about Sonora and Eliza and them
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: kissing and Eliza and all she like feel myself getting
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: choked up because I remember watching that relationship and how
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: you know, Eliza was so loving with her little sister, right,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: you were able to kind of showcase that, which I
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: thought was so great because a lot of times, you know,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: you obviously you watch these true crime docs and you
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: see the human the humans in it, but it's not, Oh,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: you always capture that much of a personal moment. I
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: find that when I'm watching it, that kind of thing
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: always strikes me, right, makes me feel like I knew Eliza.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: I'm glad. Yeah, I know it was Actually there wasn't
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: a whole lot of footage of them, so it was
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: kind of a struggle too, and I remember like, yeah,
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: we had a hard time, so that's one of But
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: you're right, that moment is really you feel their connection
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: in combination with the way that that Sonora talks about
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: her sister and makes that I mean, Sonora is a
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: beautiful writer, and she's writing a book about all of
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: this right now, a memoir, So I think her her
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: speaking about it, all of the families speaking about it
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: really make it come alive, are they?
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: I mean that they've all seen Yes, they've all seen it. Okay,
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: everyone's seen it.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: I don't think Barbara's seen the last episode. It's really
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: hard for her, but she might have, but I know
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: that when it came out she didn't watch it right away.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: How do you think do you think that it helped?
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if anything helps when your children
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: are murdered, but like, was it cathartic? Do you think
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: for them? Was it? How did they all react to it?
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Do they have different reactions?
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: I think you should. I mean, I would never speak
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: for someone who had not said anything like that to
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: me explicitly. So Noorra has said to me explicitly that
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: this helped her. But I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking for
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: anyone else because I wouldn't want paraphraise. It's such a
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: sensitive topic.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: But they all agreed to it. They wanted their story,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: one of the girl's stories, Well.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: They wanted it to be solved, first of all. And
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: I'm sure having an HBO series around the Cris, I
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: mean obviously, you know, yeah, of course it brings attention
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: to it and then so I think they wanted that
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: for sure. But yeah, I mean, they these families had
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: been in the media so much. I know that the
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: heirs parents, you know, Sean and Angie kind of took
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: over for them, like they kind of had it like
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: Pam and Bob. You know, they had been on the
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: media front lines for so long that you know, I
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: think it was just it's so hard for them. And
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: I remember, I mean the moment I really realized what
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: I'd stuck, what I'd sort of stepped into, was the
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: first day. The first day of interviews for me was
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: with Pam, Bob Angie, and Sean, And I remember I
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: interviewed Bob first, and the first thing he said was
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: the kind of the first thing in the dock after
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: Robert Springsteen at the mall, he says the number of years,
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: months and days since his daughter had been murdered.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I know that. Yeah, that blew me away too.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And in those kind of moments, you're kind of like, oh,
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: this is not going to be an easy project, like
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: you know, and it was. It was something. I mean,
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: this is sort of something I at first I said
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: wrong when I spoke about the show, but I do
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: want to keep saying it because I think it's important,
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: which is that like A twenty four, at a certain point,
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: it was clear that like kind of the secondary trauma
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: from making a show for like this was really affecting
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: the crew specifically, Yeah, the editorial team and they they
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: I remember one of the executives I told her who
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: I was pretty close to I said, I told her that, like,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: you know, I think we need therapy or people are
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: going to start quitting because they can't really sit with
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: this like that, you know, because it was just so
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: and and that the reason I hesitate saying it is
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: because the headlines became, like know, Emma Stone's documentary, because
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: she's one of the producers. You know, they had to
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: get therapy for the whole crew, which is not the
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: headline or shouldn't be because it's really about the families.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Right. Of course the victims are the of course, but
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I haven't heard a filmmaker say that before to me podcast,
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: that the crew was struggling.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, it was.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: It was so hard to Also, it's how I work
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: with the same people over and over and we do
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: make things a certain way, and it's and so I
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: think part of it is just like we really sat
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: with it, and we were going deep into the stuff
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: that you're interested in too, which is like the real
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: human parts of it. And you can't sit in trauma
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: all day long and not have it affect you. It's
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: just not how we're wired.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's that's absolutely true. I think doing you know,
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Killer Thriller, it has definitely affected me. Cour I spent
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: a lot of time now watching uh, horrific acts of
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: violence and you know, murder, and you know, but it's
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: not just I'm thinking about what you're talking about in
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: terms of the crew, but I think also about even
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: the investigators and yeah, their lives that they're yeah, and
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: how their lives unraveled.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: There's a reason that like, like cops have really high
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: suicide rates. And I think that they pushed stuff down
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: a lot, you know. And I think that I know
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: that John Jones and and and Mike Hackabee, like they
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: got really close to the families and it had a
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: detrimental effect on their health and their marriages.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Right, well, their marriages they so he got Mike Jones
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: got divorced.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, John Jones got divorced.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Sorry John Jones, excuse me? Talking about the different.
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: Symptoms of depression PTSD, right, and then watching also because
• 35:59
  Speaker 5: you showcased his sweet family, yeah at the of it, right,
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: and his adorable you know, relationship with his daughter, and
• 36:10
  Speaker 5: you see that, and then to hear that they're divorce
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: and that he's taken so much of this and I
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: don't know, you know, obviously we don't know the details
• 36:17
  Speaker 5: of that, all of the details.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: But that clearly, he was very clear that this has.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Taken a toll on his life, and that's, as you know,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: an investigator.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: No, they all like, they all deal with it in
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: different ways. It was really interesting just to see that.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: And I was not like the biggest fan of Cops
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: before I made this, but then to see how you know,
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: I mean there's people like Polanco, but there's also people
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: like John Jones.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: I know, he Oh my god, I felt I felt
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: for him and for Huck and what a character.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Is amazing yet amazing amazing.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: They both are amazing. They weren't just doing their jobs.
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: This there's a whole movie that could just be made
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: about Huck. Yes, Bug told me stuff that just his
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: whole life. He's he's a full on character, nothing to
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: do with the yogurt shut murders, but he's extremely good storyteller,
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: just An tell you know, the type of text storyteller.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was captivated by him absolutely. And John Jones,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: I mean all of everyone you showcased, I.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: Know, well, I was really lucky because I mean Bob
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: AerR is like, oh my gosh, he's such and Sean
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: and I mean all of them. I shouldn't pick any.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, but what about those those amateur sleuths?
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: What is going on there?
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: I don't know what didn't happen in there.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: I was sort of like, wait, so this is not
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: just like a book club. People are really trying to
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: solve promets?
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: And are they helping me? It looks like they are.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't shoot that footage. There was there
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: was a production before me. I did not shoot that
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: footage of them trying to tell it. I felt like,
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: you know, it is what you saw. We were just
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: like when we saw the footage, we were like, wait
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: a minute, satanic panic. Wasn't that like in the nineties.
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: I don't know why you're still thinking that, but it was.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: I just think it to me, I don't know what
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: that was, but we felt it was important to include
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: because it sort of shows the whole world of true
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: crime and a.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Lot of that going on.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: In the world of true crime. There is a there
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: are online as. I mean, you know this, but networks
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: and people that are spending their time investigating amateur investigators.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes it helps for sure. So yeah, and I
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: think I think the danger that I wanted to show
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: because I also agree like, yeah, sometimes they solve it,
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: so you can't just be completely dismissive. But I do
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: think there's another side to it, which is like these
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: families are desperate and they want answers, and if the
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: you know, if the if the if police departments are
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: not gonna respond, they're gonna look for outside help. And
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: if there's people that you know, are going to promise
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: them results and try to help them, and there's a
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: whole team of amateur sleuths, like I can't understand from
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: an emotional standpoint, being desperate and wanting to do that. Yeah,
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: I feel like that's sort of what I got out
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: of that was just the feeling of not getting answers
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: and the desperation. And I think, you know, Angie Airs,
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: I think like really wanted to help her husband get
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: some answers, you know, and this was like something that
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: she and Sean decided to purs.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: She was not playing, he was right playing.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: And I think that, you know, this was something that
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: they didn't feel like at the time that the police.
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: This was before Dan came on and before I started
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: making it, and they did not feel like they were
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: getting any attention from from the Austin APD. I mean
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: in defense of the APD. It had been over thirty years,
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: so you know, it's a cold case. There's a lot
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: of a lot less cold cases, so you know. But
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: I think that you know, you're going to advocate for
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: your family and solving an unsolved pain in your family,
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: and I think that's what Angie was trying to do.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: There's two sides to it. Sometimes these like amateur sleuths,
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: like really, yes, they find things, and other times I
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: think it's it looks like praying on people who are
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: just desperate for answers.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: Right, So we had we're working on another documentary now
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: and that whole network is really in just and it is.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: They do take it seriously, and I think there is
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: definitely there. Undoubtedly there are people that are taking advantage,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: just like when people are sick and dying and you know,
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: desperate and exactly, Yeah, food is circle, So I can
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: see that that's sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: I think that if I was desperate, I would turn
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: to whomever would you know, offer me help and course,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: but it is it's like a it's a it's probably
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: tricky to figure out like.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: Who you can trust and like it's just so emotional
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: and yeah, I would never, I would never. I mean
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: it's such a gray zone because you do see these
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: cases of when these amateur sleuths find things.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: You know what, that's a documentary right there. And I
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: don't think you want to do any more true crime.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you.
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: That in a second.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: But that's an interesting like to study the amateurs. And
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: I am not a filmmaker, but I would be very
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: interested in watching a film about does this help, does
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: it work, when does it work.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: And when does it hurt?
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: I'm sure there are times it probably gets the way
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: of investigations.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: I know that there were definite times when, like we
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: were speaking to Shila, that's the name, and I think
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: the investigators were like, do not talk to her? Like
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: they're definitely like they don't, you know, not always sometimes
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: they work with with the PI people, but like a
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: lot of the times, the APD or I think any
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: police department just wants to separate it. So that was
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: It's been a minute, but that's kind of what I remember.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so Mart, you don't think you'll keep doing
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: true crime.
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: It depends on the piece like I mean, I think
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: like I think of you know, I like to tell stories,
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: I guess and I but I do think that like
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: this one took a lot out of me and maybe
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: someone who hasn't done it yet do it like cause
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: I I you know, I have like so many ideas
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: in life.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Short I wonder what it's it takes like because there
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: are so many filmmakers and this is what they do.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: They do true crime right right?
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, a genre.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I never thought it was going to
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: be podcasting about true crime. But I am obsessed now,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: I have to say, And I sometimes I'm a little
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: embarrassed by that.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Why are you embarrassed?
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: Because I feel as if sometimes I am how could
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: you enjoy anything about this?
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: It's just all watching there are but again, like even
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: with in.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: This case, watching what's happening and what investigators are sometimes
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: not all of them, hopefully you know very few, but
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: are you know false confessionals and moving the needle forward
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: in terms of getting it right?
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: That is all that.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: I love that part of it, and I think it's
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: a beautiful job of raising awareness here. But I do
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: I'm watching true crime now and I'm mesmerized and I
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: don't know, do you have any of that, like I.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, I definitely think that I never i'd see
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: some true crime, like I watched The Jinks and I
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: watched The Staircase, but it wasn't like it's hard to say.
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, I definitely it's not that I'm avoiding it.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: It's just that like I did this for like kind
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: of personal reasons that I live in Austin, and I
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: thought an Austin filmmaker. Maybe I'm not an essentialist at all,
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: but I thought, maybe it's good if an Austin filmmaker.
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: But honestly, I was traveling with another movie and wasn't
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: really thinking about it that much. Like I just was like,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: this archival footage is good. My best friend says that
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: this is a really fascinating case. And I didn't really
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: I didn't think about the trauma. It's so naive, Like
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: I didn't think about what it would take me emotionally
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: to do this kind of work. But I don't think
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: you should feel guilty about it, because I think that women,
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: particularly like we are. I mean, there's been studies done
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: on this and Sheila actually, who the PI who's in
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: the show, has a podcast about this, and she told me,
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: and I think she's right that, like women kind of
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: are drawn to this because it's sort of like, you know,
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: women are aggressed upon, and it's a way for you
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: to sort of think of ways, maybe subconsciously that you
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: would prevent it from happening to you.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Were not saying that is so interesting.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think that she's maybe onto something there.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: She said her podcast was listened to by ninety percent women.
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: It was like eighty to ninety percent women, And that
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: really stuck with me that like, well, women, why are
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: women more interested in this? Like you got to ask yourself.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: And I'm constantly learning.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: I'm not always facts that I love, but I'm finding
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: out that you are. And I don't remember the exact
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: percentage twenty times more likely to be murdered if you're
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: pregnant or something.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: That is so right, like these crazy statistics.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: That come up from from watching true crime, And you're right,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: maybe it is. There is like that part of the
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: brain that's like, well, if I know I have all
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: this knowledge, I can somehow control it won't happen to me,
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: won't happen to my kids?
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: I don't know, No, like I you know, I had
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: a partner at the time, and I made the show,
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: and I still got like a I've never had a
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: security system in my house, but like I got one,
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: I like one because of doing this.
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: Yes, I started thinking about Yeah, I started thinking about
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: things differently.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Holy, that's a lot, I.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: Know, I started. It reframes your brain. I started having
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: these weird dreams.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: And how many times can you watch the positioning of
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: the girls and that it's without just you know, losing it.
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: Well, I just think about the parents having to Yes,
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: that's what I think about, Yeah, like having the same thing. Yeah,
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: it's I mean, whenever I think about how hard it
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: is for me, I think about how much harder it
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: must be for the families, you know, like it's just
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: and for the boys to be just framed that I mean,
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: because it is the kind of thing. And I think
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: I'm relating to you saying you feel bad about it,
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: because you know, I feel bad feeling bad about my
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: own secondary trauma because I'm like, well, fuck, like, I
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: mean I feel bad, like look at what happened to them,
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: Like I'm not allowed to feel bad.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, right, I mean that's listen, I've been
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: in therapy for thirty years or something.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: I feel bad about everything, So that's for another episode. Yeah,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know, my friend, I think you're really good
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: at this. I think maybe you should. It's not a
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: because you don't always get the you know, the humanity.
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: Coming to it.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, well maybe this will inspire people to do
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: it with more humanity. I don't know. That sounds really arrogant.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Well I said it first, so.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: But but I yeah, I mean I think I might
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: do it. It just depends on if I thought I
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: could handle it a and do a good job and
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: that I could live with the story for that long.
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: And also because I work with the same people over
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: and over, I have to think about my crew and
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: like do I want to put them through this. I
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: got approached recently to make something you know that if
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: I hadn't made this, I would have considered that sort
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: of in this genre. But I just thought about my
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: crew and how much they went through making it, and
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: I was like, I can't. They'll kill me, Like, no,
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: I can't do that right now.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever asked this before, but
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: I'm just curious, and you don't have to answer. I
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: don't know if you can what you're working on now.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: I actually can't say.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very fascinated by you, my friend.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: Well, it's it's an interesting one, that's for sure. It's
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: I'm completely obsessed with it.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, you're doll. Thank you, Okay, sure, thank
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: you so much