Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / Ric Ocasek: The Mysterious Maestro Behind The Cars [Episode 319]

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Ric Ocasek: The Mysterious Maestro Behind The Cars [Episode 319] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Millions knew him as the voice and the main songwriter
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: of the Cars, yet he was a mystery to those
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: closest to him. We look back at the life and
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: legendary career of ric Ocassick with author Peter Aaron. That's
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: next on Booked on Rock.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: We're totally booked on rock and roll. I mean, I
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: leave you you're reading. Little Hands says it's time to
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: rock and roll. I totally booked.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to book don Rock. This is the podcast
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: for those about to read and rock. And we have
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: a first time guest on the show. He is Peter Aaron.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: He's the author of the brand new book Moving in
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Stereo ric Ocassick, the driving force of the Cars. Welcome
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: to the podcast, Peter, Eric.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on. You're the
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: first UH to do an interview in the wake of
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: the book, and I'm honored that we're starting with Booked
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: on Rock. O.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm I'm looking forward to this so much.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Since starting this podcast, it's been I think three years,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: I've yet to cover a book on the Cars. So
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: that's why I'm so so excited to talk about this band.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: So this is weird laughing because before we started, I
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: fell right into the okay sick pronunciation. It is okas sick.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. I mean you know when
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: when I was younger, before I knew, uh, before it
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: was pointed out to me, Uh, you know, I certainly
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: did the same thing. Uh. Rick's real last name it
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: was otcassic O t C s e K, which is
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Eastern European name, And he dropped the T after a
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: certain point. I guess he kind of felt like it
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: made it less clunky, more more streamlined, if he will, So, yeah,
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: it's a common, common mistake. And uh yeah, I've seen
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: interviews where it was said that way to his face
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: and he he didn't flinch, So it sounds like he
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: probably was okay with with you.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: But you know, he is a man of mystery. He is,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: as you read in the book, an unreadable puzzle to
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: many and a man of many dualities. So tell us
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: about the process that you went through to come up
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: with the story of Rick, because, like he said, if
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: you want to know about him, listen to the music,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: listen to the lyrics, and that's really the best way
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: to find out about me. But yeah, there's still more
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: that needs to be told. He's he's he's an interesting
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: figure and there's not much known about him.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's that's why I was excited to do
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: the book because you know, I love I love the Cars.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: When they came out, you know, I was totally consumed
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: with with the first few albums, and you know, I
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: always wanted to know more about him, but they're just
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: he was such he covered his tracks really well, so
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: there wasn't, like you said, there wasn't really any other
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: substantial books about the Cars or relating to the Cars. Uh.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: When when I signed on to do this project, and
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: that was part of what pulled me along, was just
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: he seemed like a very interesting, enigmatic artist. I loved
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: his music. I loved the bands that he worked with.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Outside of the Cars, I knew he was a hip,
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: deep cat. But beyond that, you know, I knew I
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: was going to have to do do some digging. And
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: that's what it was.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Family members, bandmates with the Cars, right.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, well certainly know. I was able to talk
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: to Greg Hawks and to David Robinson and they were fantastic, wonderful,
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: very forthcoming people. But I also tracked down Rick's sister,
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Maureen no one had ever spoken with her before. I
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: found the drummer for his very first band, a band
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: called id Nirvana, Stephen Dodge, who still lives in Columbus, Ohio,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: the area where the and was based. And I found
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: the drummer for the first drummer for Cap and Swing,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: which is a band that proceeded directly preceded the Cars.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: And we had fuzz By Morris who played guitar in
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Richard and the Rabbits, which was the band that directly
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: preceded Cap and Swing. So you know, we've got a
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  Speaker 2: lot of inside sources during during the process that I
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: know that nobody else really talked to you before. Well,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Fuzzby Morris is certainly he's a well known musician, and
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: I think he's been interviewed several times about ricking the Cars.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: But there's definitely some figures in there that were pretty
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: deep in Rix pass. So I think people will enjoy
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: meeting those people.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the quotes from his sister, those are really important
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: because it helps us understand his childhood a little bit
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: more tell us about Rix's origins. His wife, Paulina Poris Covides,
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  Speaker 1: quoted the book saying he had a tough childhood, and
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: his relationship with his parents was rough. He got picked
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: on in school for being tall and thin. This may
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: explain as you describe his Waldoff personality.
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  Speaker 2: In later years. It seems like it did. In fact,
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: that's one thing that Dave Robinson said was he thought
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: that a lot of well certainly a lot of how
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: he carried himself on stage was related to maybe still
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: kind of feeling awkward about his his physique. But you
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: know that, you know, when you're a kid, it goes
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: both directions. Anything that anyone can find to pick on
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  Speaker 2: you about, and you act in a way that gets
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: under your skin. Kids will do that to each other,
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  Speaker 2: and it gets dealt with in different ways by different
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  Speaker 2: different personalities. And Rick, rather than being an outwardly aggressive,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: like spoiling for a fight type person, he seemed like
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  Speaker 2: he internalized a lot of that and tried to express
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: it in ways that were more personal. And I think
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: that had lot to do with making him an introvert,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: I guess you'd say, in a lot of ways.
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  Speaker 1: The majority of his life he lived in the Baltimore area.
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  Speaker 2: Not the majority of his life, the early part of
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: his life until he was about sixteen, years old. He
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: grew up in a suburb of Baltimore called Tulsen, and
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: then when he was sixteen, his father, who worked for NASA,
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: ended up getting a job in the Cleveland area, so
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: he moved at a that age, he moved to Cleveland
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  Speaker 2: and being in Ohios where he ended up meeting Benjamin
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Orr and you know, things just obviously evolved from there.
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  Speaker 1: And the story behind how he meets Ben that's also
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: a tough story to nail down.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because because Ben Ben had been in a
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: band in Cleveland before he and Rick met called the Grasshoppers,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: were very locally popular. You know, this is during the
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: mid sixties, the right in the wake of the British
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: invasion and kind of the garage band era, and the
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  Speaker 2: Grasshoppers were one of the most popular sort of Beatles
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  Speaker 2: styled bands in Cleveland, and they ended up being the
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  Speaker 2: house band for for a local American bandstand type TV
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  Speaker 2: show and that was on that was on TV around
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  Speaker 2: the time that Rick was in maybe just out of
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: high school or early college years in Ohio, so it
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: seems like Rick would have would have seen that. But
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: then the way they ended up meeting was was Ben
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: after playing in the Grasshoppers and a couple other bands
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: wanted to get into the sort of booking management ended
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: things and was trying to book bands regionally, and he
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: went to see id Nirvana, Rick's first band play, and
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  Speaker 2: that's kind of how they met. They after after the gig,
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  Speaker 2: Ben came over the house and played the Beatles yesterday
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  Speaker 2: on acoustic guitar, and Rick was blown away and talked
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: him into joining ed Nirvana right away. That's but he
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: also recounting that story. I've seen interviews where he says
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: where you know, acts like he'd never heard Ben sing
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: or play guitar before, which which you know, which is
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: is confusing because if he'd seen the Grasshoppers would have
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: been on local TV in Cleveland, so it seems like
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: he would have, you know, he would have seen them.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: And he's talked about having heard other points, talked about
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  Speaker 2: herving having heard the Grasshoppers uh at other times. So
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: it's it's sort of it's sort of nebulous, But I
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: think that that all goes along with the way that
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  Speaker 2: Rick liked things.
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  Speaker 1: Really Yeah, yeah, Ben or originally Ben or is it
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: Showski or is it Kowski or is it Caski Ben
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: eleven Letters was.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: His eleven Letters.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, they really hit it off musically. It seems personally
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  Speaker 1: as well. They seem to be pretty close.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, and they it's it's it's it's interesting. Uh,
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  Speaker 2: they seem to have be I've talked about them being
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  Speaker 2: extensions of each other. Rick had or Ben had certain
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: qualities that Rick didn't have, and he Ben was a
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  Speaker 2: perfect way to channel songs and and and sounds that
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Rick had in his head that he couldn't do on
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  Speaker 2: his own. So it was it was kind of a
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  Speaker 2: real really a perfect symmetry. I mean Ben, Benjamin or
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: w isn't really a songwriter. I mean he ended up
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  Speaker 2: making a solo album after you know, kind of toward
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  Speaker 2: the end of the.
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  Speaker 1: Cars or you know, Stay the Night that was his
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  Speaker 1: big hit.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, had a hit, and he was he was write
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: writing songs with his girlfriend at the time, but you know,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: he was more of a yeah, more on the focus
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  Speaker 2: on being a musician and a vocalist. So I think
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: that you know, they they just there was there was
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  Speaker 2: it was almost like they needed each other.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Booked on rock podcasts. Will be back after this Patience Boys,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: All good things to those who wait to hear the
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: sound of the Cars. It really surprised me to read
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: that he was a fan of folk. He was a
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: huge Bob Dylan fan. He loved poetry. That's really interesting.
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  Speaker 1: And in fact, him and ben were in a band
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: that was somewhat focused, like a like a Crosby Stills,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: a Nash type of thing, right they were.
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  Speaker 2: They were in a band called Milkwood that made one
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: album for the Paramount label in nineteen seventy to seventy three,
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  Speaker 2: and the album didn't really come out very well from
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  Speaker 2: a production standpoint, and it wasn't really promoted for the
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: labels by the label very well, so it didn't you know,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: it kind of like was sort of instantly in the
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: cut up and the band broke up not long after that,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: but before that, going well back before that, the first
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: performance that Rick ever did was a solo acoustic performance
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: at a coffee house in the Bowl and Green area
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: when he was going to college. And then in Nirvana
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: the band. The first band that he started was more
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: of a garage psychedelic band, and Benjaminora joined that band
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: and it broke up and they became a band called
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Leather Would, which was kind of a more of a
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: folk rock band with you know, rhythm section and everything,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: and then Milkwood was basically an acoustic trio with Benjamin
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Orr playing electric bass. Another guitarist acoustic guitarist in the
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: band was in the band named Jim Goodkind.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: It really is interesting the journey that it took to
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: get to the Cars. I think were they in their
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: late twenties when the Cars finally hit big in the
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: late seventies.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean Rick was about twenty nine, twenty nine, yeah,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: which is you know, or yeah, twenty nine to thirty
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, as a rock musician, the clock is
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: ticking right, yeah, coming up on.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Thirties, especially at that time, because it was really you know,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: these days, you know, I think audiences are more accepting
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: of different age performers, and there's a lot of younger
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: people that discover performers that are older and maybe had
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: you know, his pre established careers, and that's that's sort
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: of an accepted thing. But in those days, it was
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: you know, much more of a quick turnover and much
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: more focused on on youth and so and you know,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: part of that was Rick didn't talk about how old
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: he was. He would be very evasive.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: And I remember that there was a question that did
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: he shave off some years in his biography.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Or yeah, yeah, about yeah, five years, and it was
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: that was something that was after he died, was kind
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: of uncovered by a New York Times reporter.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: What is the exact year of birth.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: He was born in I was nineteen forty six, Yeah,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: mid to late forties. Yeah. Yeah.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: There are some fascinating stories in this book. There are
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: so many, but the one about when he was young,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: he gets married, he has a child when he's only I.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: Don't know, just out of high school, just on a
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: high school. Yeah, like basically like you know, last year
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: year to just after the last year of high school.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, his parents, his parents are thinking, oh cool, he's
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: going to settle down because he ended up getting I
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: think a regular nine to five job. Was it at
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: a bank or something.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: He worked for the Bell telephone company, and yeah, drawing
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: diagrams for switching systems.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Right, And what was the story about his friend saying
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: one night they're all hanging out there and the police
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: here's the police siren and Rick was splits man. He
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: runs out the back and says, don't tell him I'm here.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the drummer for his first band for
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: edner Vana, Stephen Dodge, And yeah, he was over his
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: apartment one night and they were hanging out and the
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: cops came to the front door, and Rick just, yeah,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: he just ran out, so don't tell him where I went.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: And never was never explained after that.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: He yah, still doesn't know what it was about. And
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: he was he was flirting with the ladies. He was
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: here's again double life and there's the car song double life.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: He was living that double life. And he's when he's
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: at home, he's the perfect family man, but when he's
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: out there playing the gigs, he's he's living the lifestyle.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there was. There was obviously, you know, these
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: sort of two sides kind of vying for for supremacy
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: within you know, his his his his psyche and and uh,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: you know, the the artist side was just you know,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: could not be could not be suppressed, you know what.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: It was the more powerful side. And and you know,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: talking about the quote you mentioned at the beginning of
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: things about the real way to know him was through
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: the songs, I mean, that was that was one that
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: was a key thing that hit me with working on
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: this book, and and and learning about Rick, as much
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: as I could learn about him, was that it music
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: was who he was. You know, music was the most
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: important thing in his life. It's what he was made of.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: And so that's why I tried to talk about a
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: lot of the artists that were influential for him, and
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: also the ones that he felt strongly enough to help
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: with as far as producing their music or having them
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: play with the Cars. You know, it seemed like a
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: love of music was what he really wanted to transmit
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: into the world more than anything.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Velvet Underground, yeah.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, formative influences and Bob Dylan, you know
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: another artist who technically I mean, you know, Rick had
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: a very interesting voice and you know, very striking recognizable voice,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: and he could harmonize really well with Ben That's that's
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: something that they took from the Crosby still as a
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Nash style music of Milkwood into the Cars, and you
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: certainly hear that on the first album a lot, especially.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: But you know, like Bob Dylan, Rick was you know,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: he wasn't He didn't have a Benjamin or type voice.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: He didn't have this sort of like classically ah, you know,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: perfect stunning voice.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: But smoky voice like you describe it in the book.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and and and you know, that sort of
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: crooner type type quality. But you know, like Bob Dylan,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: he was able to make it work within the greater
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: framework work of what he did, and not every That's
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: something that not every artist understands how to do.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: You mentioned he met up with Bob Dylan years later
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: and they recorded a song together.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: That I've never as far as I know, they didn't
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: record a song together, but they worked on at least
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: one song together. They got to know each other. That's
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: something that Rick talked about in an interview for Interview magazine,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: but not too many not too many details beyond that,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't seem like it's like maybe Rick realized
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: not to kind of push it and lean on on
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Bob as to take it further than what they did,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: you know, respecting Bob as Bob Dylan as an artist,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: and just being grateful for the experience of doing that
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: as a fan too.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: So you talk about how serious he is about music,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: which is surprising to read that he did give up
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: on music at one point. He moved back to Cleveland. Actually,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Rick and Ben moved back to Cleveland. So but if
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: you could give the cliff notes version of how we
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: get to the cars.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Rick's second wife was a woman from Massachusetts, from Western Massachusetts.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: And Rick and Ben had had a pretty good go
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: with it with the band Leatherwood. Came to the New
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: York area, moved up to State New York for a
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: little bit. Nothing happened with that band that it broke
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: up and they went back to Michigan, which is where
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: they had been just before. They went to from Ohio
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: to Michigan and Rick ended up meeting this woman. They
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: got married. They moved to the Boston area to be
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: a little bit closer to her family, and they were
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: living to Cambridge, which was a really good music scene,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: especially for folk music. And Rick had followed that and
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: he started playing with guitarist Jim Goodkind and got Ben
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: to come out and they forn in Milkwood. That lasted
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: for a couple years, they made an album. They broke up,
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: and then Rick started another band with Ben and some
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: other musicians. Fusby Morris, guitar player was in it called
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Richard and the Rabbits, and their name was suggested by
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Richmond, whose band The Modern Lovers. Rick was a
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: huge fan of and then that band broke up and
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Rick and Ben started doing an acoustic duo. Well Ben
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: was still playing bass, and they called it olkassikan Ore.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: So that was when he started using the oca oca
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: se k spelling. And then that led to Cap and
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Swing and they had a showcase gig at Max's Kansas
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: City and it didn't go well. Part of the thing,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: part of what they got out of the gig out
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: of that doing that gig that didn't go well, is
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: they got some constructive criticism and they made some changes
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: and applied that constructive criticism to become the Cars.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: And Rick his vocal style changes around that time of
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Cap and Swing into the style that we know of.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was interesting because this was during their early
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: days of punk and slash, a new wave and that
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: style of singing kind of technically, you say, non virtuoso
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: style of singing work with that music. You had people
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: at David Byrne, and you had from Talking Heads and
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Mark Mothersbaugh from Devo and David Thomas from Perubu and
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Tom Verland from television the sort of quirky style of singing.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: And Rick had been his first influence even before Bob
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Dylan was Buddy Holly that.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you mentioned that. Yeah, it totally skipped
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: my mind. And then I'm now thinking about his vocal style.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Now I hear the Buddy Holly influence in his vocals.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was. And some of that was you know,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Roxy music had had some of that sort of space
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: age fifties kind of synthesis going on in their music,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: and you know, Rick would definitely been, you know, influenced
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: by them. They were kind of mid seventies is when
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: they were at their height, and so you know, he
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: was able to kind of, you know, do this sort
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: of space age rockabilly kind of sound, reached back to
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: one of his favorite influences, and and uh sing in
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: a way that was unique, that worked for the style
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: of music and was perfect. I mean you think about, like,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: you know, a song like My best Friend's Girl. I mean,
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: somebody you know singing in a real kind of emotive style,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: you know, would have would have ruined that song, you know,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: but there's sort of a little bit that that a
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: little bit of childlike vulnerability in the way in that
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: style of singing, that kind of fifties nostalgic innocence of
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: of the Buddy Holly kind of earnest style. And you
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: know this guy talking about singing about his his uh,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: you know his best friend's girlfriend used to be his.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And there's obviously a little bit of like anst and
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: pain in that. And for someone to sing that in
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: a real kind of over the top like American idol,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: like overly confident kind of way, would you know it
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: would have killed that song Like dead in the water.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Rock podcasts. We'll be back after this, I.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Mean out, come out wherever you are.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Well. I ask you about max Aan Sartori. I've read
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: this story for many, many years, but the book really
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: gets into it in detail, and you get some stuff
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: in there that I didn't know about. You write quote
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: to say that the then twenty three year old West
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Coast transplant max An Sartori was one of the most
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: important and impactful figures connected to Rick's musical career would
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: not be an overstatement. This takes us back to a
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: time when FM rock radio still had that ability to
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: break a band. But she was more than just that.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: She's more than just playing this band's music. She is
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: watching them intently, giving them advice, giving her input being
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: honest about what she's seeing with a band and telling Rick, look,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: I think you really need to change your life, book,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: your image, things like that. So tell us about her
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: how she comes into the story when the first time
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: she finds out about them.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Max ansatri incredibly popular, not just not just to
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: the car story, but to just the history of Boston
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: rock and roll. She was on WBCN, which was at
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: the time was kind of an upstart, sort of a
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: hippie FM station. What it was called progressive music at
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: the time, which was basically rock that was, you know,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: not cloying attempting to have top forty AM radio hit
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: type music. You know, bands could stretch out and play
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: longer songs and play play music that had a deeper
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: feeling to it. And she was very well informed and
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: very very much ahead of the curve for what was
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: cool up there. I mean, Dave Robinson in our interview
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: for the book like You talk at length about how
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: she was so cool. She always knew all the coolest
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: bands before anybody else did and turned them on just
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: to so much music. Rick in particular. She became like
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: a mentor to Rick, and he listened obsessively to her. Show,
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: which was on in the afternoon prime drive time on
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: WBCN and WBCN was sponsored a street fair in you know,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Newberry Street or Back Bay area, and one of the
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: bands that got on the bill was Captain Swing. And
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Rick had published a chap book of poetry and went
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: up to meet her and say he was a fan
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: and gave her this signed book of poetry and that
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: led to him giving her tapes of Captain Swing, and
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: she played some of the stuff on the show. You
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: know it. It did it okay as far as audience reception,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: but you know, you know, nothing amazing. But they became
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: closer friends, and she would play him all kinds of
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: new music that became influential to him. And then after
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: they had this kind of ill fated showcase gig at
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Max's Kansas City in nineteen seventy six, she you know,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: helped kind of push him into trying some different ideas
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: and some moves that clicked and became the Cars. And
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: then when she started playing the car's demos on early
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: demos of My Best Friend's Girl and Just What I
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Needed on WBCN, the radio went nuts, like they were
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: the most became most requested songs on the station, and
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: those songs were getting reported in the trade journals, and
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: so these industry record major label record industry people would
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: would see the cars just what I needed. And instead
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: of where the in the chart where there would be
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: the name of the label that the recording was on,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: it would just say tape. And so that caught the
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: eye of some of these labels. And it just so
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: happened that the sister of of some of from a
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: lecture was was going to Harvard and the Cars were
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: would play at dances at at Harvard frequently, and she
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: talked her brother into coming up to see the band,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: and and a couple other labels were snooping around and
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: that's and that's how they got signed.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: What a cool story. That's old school rock and roll
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: right there. Yeah, And the first album is like, Oh,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: by the way, the Cars. The name of the Cars,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: I think was David's idea, was just no no fancy
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: story behind it, just like the car. Yeah, he said.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: He said, you know, we just we made a list
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: of names, and that was one of the names on it.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: He couldn't remember any of the other any of the
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: other names that were on the list, but it was
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: just I guess it was just easy like that. It
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: sort of had connotations of fast movement and sleekness, and
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: uh Rick liked Rick was Another big influence of his
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: was Andy Warhol and pop art. And I think that
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: the idea that it was sort of a very generic
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: name and everyone knows what a car is, I think
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: it it appealed to him in that way that it
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: was sort of like ironically generic, the way Campbell's soup
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: can is right.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: And I forget was Max and the one that said,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: you guys should change the band name or was it
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: the band who decided what's changed the name? David wasn't
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: there right with Captain Swing right away?
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: No, he wasn't he he? I think, yeah, yeah, and
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: and yeah yeah, I mean she you know, I think
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: they felt that Captain Swing had such a you know,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: there would have become toxic because you know, this this
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: this showcase gig in New York. You know, it went
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: went so poorly that among labels that they figured that
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: they should start anew and you come up with some
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: and and also you know, cap and Swinging was sort
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: of you know, it's kind of was sort of a
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: glam rock name. It was sort of like, uh, you know,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: a ziggy starred Ust type figure. I think that Rick
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: had in his head when when he came up with
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: the name, and he had there was a logo with
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: a sort of a Superman type character and the cars,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of dead simple, sort of fit with
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: the garage band, kind of punk ethos that was on
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: the cutting edge at that time.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Book on Rock podcast will be back after this. Look,
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: we're going to take a call. The first album, it's
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: like a greatest hits album. The guys in the band
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: have said it.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they said it when when it came out, they
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: were calling, you know right away.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: I remember my older brother mentioning that too, so he
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: must have read the band say that it really is
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: good times roll my best Friend's Girl, just what I needed.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Then you got the album tracks, which are so great too.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I'm in Touch with Your World, Don't You Stop? That
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: finishes side one, side to is Your Life Got Tonight?
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Bye by Love Moving in stereo into all mixed up? Yeah,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: yeah yeah. Elliet Elliot Easton deathly ill these I love
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: this little minutia that the stories of recording Elliot Easton,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: who's a very underrated guitarist by the way oh yeah,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: deathly ill with food poisoning while laying down his guitar
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: solos for that album amazing. That tells you how great
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: he is.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, what an incredible just I mean, you
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: know he's someone that I mean, you know, Time just
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: you know, the Car is one of those bands that
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: get one of those bands where Time is just sort
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: of embellishing how how how great they were and and
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: and you know, in a parallel path to that, also
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: how incredible Eliot Easton is. Yeah, Candy, oh god. And
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: also that you know that segue of moving in stereo
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: uh uh into all all mixed up and yeah yeah,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: and and you know that also that made it like
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: if you were a DJ, you couldn't pick the needle up,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: you know, one song and it just naturally flows right
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: into another, you know.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: And they showed they can rock. Don't just stop as
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: a rocker.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, that's yeah to me, that's I say,
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: that's the punk, that's the real punker on that album.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: That's like yeah, yeah, And they had a lot of
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: great ones that were didn't make it onto the Hotel. Queenie.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Great song, I've never heard that. Oh it's great it's
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: a total punker. I mean it would have been it
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: would have fit well with in like a set list
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: by like the Damned or something. It's very Stooge's kind
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: of sounding.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Is that on deluxe edition? Is it on?
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah? There's a demo of it on the deluxe and
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: there's also on the live album. There's a live triple
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: live album that was recorded at the Agora Ballroom in
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Cleveland and seventy eight that it came out as a
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: record store day thing on vinyl. I don't know if
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: it's still in print on CD or but is it
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: version of it on there? That's great?
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, check it out.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Roy Thomas Baker, we got to talk about him, and
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: he produced the album. Known for his work with Queen.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: The things he does on this album, let's just focus
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: in on the vocal harmonies. You mentioned the harmonies before.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Already Rick and Ben had a great accommodation there vocally
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: with harmonies. But what he does here Good Times Role
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: has fifty voices in one part.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and Rick was at first was
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: kind of like whoa, you know, that's sort of overdoing it.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: And then you know, he sat with the tape for
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: a little bit over was you know, got you know,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: got to like it, but yeah, yeah, and and it's
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: interesting because the way it's very extreme. I mean Roy
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Thomas Baker. A lot of stuff he did was very extreme.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: There's a lot so much space in what he did.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Like you hear like Queen like okay, death on two legs. Okay.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: That solo that comes in on that is like all
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: the way over here. It's panned all the way over here,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: and then the vocals are like these mass vocals are
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: all the way over on this side. It's like it
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: shouldn't work, but it's like with with with Good Times Role,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: it's just like you know, Rick's lead vocal toward one side,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: and then the Good Times Roll part in the chorus.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Those mass voices only come in for that one line.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: When it happens, it's very disjointed. It's not it's not
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: it's not smooth, but somehow it works and it doesn't
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: It doesn't throw you off at all. It draws you in.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: And that's uh, you know, you know who could come
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: up with ideas like that Back then, especially.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize Good Times Roll. It's like a sarcastic
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: thing that Rick was yeah. Yeah. People thought, yeah, let's
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: look at good times rolling man, let's party.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, well he was. He was good with that.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, like, yeah, it's just I mean, at that
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: point he had been in a lot of bands that
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: hadn't gone anywhere, and it had really been slugging it out,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: and you know, he was on food stamps and and
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: and all this and and and uh you know, kind
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: of eating dirt and you know, it's sort of sarcastic.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: But the way it was received by most people who
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: weren't really thinking about it were just like, yeah, party
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: it up, you know, right, I mean, like best friend's girl.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: I mean there's that whole thing of like, you know,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: this guy talking about his best friend's girl and how
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: great she is, and then at the end he sort
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: of drops this bomb of like, well she used to
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: be mine, right, you know, just like yeah, I mean,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's deceptively complex.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: When I was nineteen years old, that we had in
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: a local radio FM rock station in New Haven had
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: an amateur hour and so they invite people to come
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: on and play whatever they wanted for an hour, and
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: I was so excited about it, and my very first
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: song was let the good Times roll. So here I
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: was misunderstanding as well, like let's let the roll.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, that's genius. That's genius, you know, right,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: you know it just like I mean, and you know
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: that's and the influence of bubblegum rock very kind of
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: a hidden influence. I mean, Ramones saw themselves or Johnny
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Ramono from referred to the Ramones as being twisted bubble gum.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: I mean there's you know, bubble gum music very simplistic, uh,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: you know, supposedly made for like preteens back in the
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: late sixties early seventies. Uh, but that simple simplism was
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: something that you know was uh integral to early punk rock,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: and it was sort of a lot of bands kind
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: of reappropriated that music and you know, took it in
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: kind of a direction that maybe bubble gum fans wouldn't
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: have anticipated. And that opening rip from Yummy Yummy, Yummy
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Young I Love my tummy dun d d that's that's
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: that that was you know, co opted for just where
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: I needed, you know, And I think that's one thing
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: he learned was a way of like sneaking in these
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: sort of double entendre you know type type things like
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: you know, talking about good times roll like that, or
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: certainly later with a song like Tonight she comes, I mean,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: come on, you.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Know, oh my god, I love that song.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, but it's like I mean, like you know,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: he's snuck that one in sure, you know, I mean
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: things like things like that, you know.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: The beginning. I'd love the beginning of just what I needed.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: I'm always trying to guess when he's gonna come in
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: with a double snare hit. He's hitting the snare once,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: hitting the snare once, when's he gonna hit to it?
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: And then the double bass boo dooo booo.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and it keeps it keeps you on edge.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: It keeps you on the edge.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes you pay attention.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The album peaked at number eighteen on Billboard in
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: March of seventy nine, spent one hundred and thirty nine
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: weeks on the chart. It has since gone six times
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: platinum here in the US. Cars Arrive in a Big
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: way Now. They follow with the number three Candyo in
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, four times platinum, the number five million
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: selling Panoram in nineteen eighty. That album was a little
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: bit of a slip there. Commercially, Shake it Up for
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one went double platinum, peaking at number nine.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Now the hit singles during this period, it's staggering, from
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: the first album right up to Shake it Up. Just
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: what I needed. My best friend's girl, good times role,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Let's go, It's all I can do. One of my favorites,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: touch and Go. Another great one the number four shake
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: it Up. Since You're gone all in or very close
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: to top forty with Shake it Up top ten. Along
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: the way, however, Rick was increasingly opening up to producing.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: When did that side career start for him? And what
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: do you think drew him to that?
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Well? I think that he really liked the artful side
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: of putting together music on top of just writing songs,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: and you know, he listened so studiously to records when
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: he was, you know, kind of forming his own musical outlook,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: and I think it was just a natural extension of that.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: I think it was a way, first of all, if
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: it was a band that he liked that he could
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: work with, then he was sort of putting his stamp
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: on that band and saying that this is good stuff,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: and I feel strong enough that I want to be involved,
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: So that's an expression in itself, but also shaping the
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: sounds of those albums. It's it's another it's another palette,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: it's another another mode of expression. And obviously felt strongly
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: about music and took it seriously. So I think he
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: wanted to try and put as much good and good
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: sounding music as he as he could out there. And
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: and also, you know, being a very successful pop artist,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: he got to work with artists that were more experimental
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: and very much on the other side of the spectrum
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: from pop music, and I think that was very rewarding.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: And you know he would he would take in for
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: from that music and Swiley work it into the more
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: commercial music that the Cars did.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Booked on rock Podcasts, We'll be back after this.
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: During our brief indormission, Let's take a flying trip from
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Milanda Fantasy to everyday life.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: You finished chapter twenty seven by writing about where the
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: band was at nineteen eighty two. You say, quote, from
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: the outside, things seemed more than perfect. Rick's band was
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: riding high and his career as a producer had started
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: to take off. But inside the Cars camp problems were brewing.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: Talk about where the cracks within the band begin is
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: this with a management change.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: It was a little bit after the management had changed.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: They ended up signing with a big West Coast manager
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: who had worked with Jackson Brown and some Jonny Mitchell,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: and you know, it kind of seemed like that he
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: saw Rick as being as as the Cars is being.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Since Rick was writing pretty much all writing all the
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: songs and singing, uh most of them even then, and
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: you know, involved with the sound, I started to see
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: that the Cars were a situation of Rick and these
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: guys that play with him, you know, and that kind
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: of started getting pushed a little bit. And I think
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: that that, you know, caused cause some of the divisions.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: And Rick was getting more interested in working in the
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: studio and being a producer and didn't want to tour
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: as much. And there's a combination of those things that
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: really started to kind of start a wedge going.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: In moving in stereo Rico. The Driving Force of the
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: Cars is the book. Our guest is the author, Peter Aaron.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: What they achieved with the nineteen eighty four is Heartbeat City.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: You would think everything is going more than fine, number
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: three album, four times platinum, huge hit singles, magic Drive.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: You might think there was a decision by Rick and
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: the band had change, not just where they recorded this album,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: but who would produce it. Talk about the location change
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: and what led to Mutt Lang producing Heartbeat City.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Well, I think he just wanted to try something different,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: and also Roy Thomas. You know, they'd made four albums
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: with Roy Thomas Baker at that point. I think they
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: wanted to try something different. I think Roy Thomas Baker
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: was also working on another project around the time they
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: wanted to record, and Mutt Lang had produced some very successful,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: commercially successful records. He produced def LAPPERD, he produced a
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: ac DC back in Black, and he was also I
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: mean def Leppard that the stuff that he produced by
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: them was certainly you know, I wouldn't. I mean, they
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: had guitars in the band, but those weren't really guitar records.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Ac DC was guitarist to the four kind of thing.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: And also I think that you know, I think, well,
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: I think that you know, Rick just wanted to try
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: something that was maybe more you know, we're gonna have
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: pop hits, Let's try and have something that that competes
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: with you know, that that into the charts and and
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: that that demographic.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: And yeah, Mutt was the guy.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you know, just Rick liked to
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: like to challenge himself.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Also, I love the album. I'm curious though, what you
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: think of how it stood up over time as opposed
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: to that first album. I feel like I still love
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: the first album. I listened to it all other Heartbeat City,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I've listened to it all the time. But you can
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: hear a little bit some dated production techniques as opposed
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: to that first one. Is more like you listen to
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: it and it doesn't sound of a time.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I agree, I think you you really nailed it.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: I mean that the first one just has like a
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: classic sound. It's got a good balance of uh, cleanier
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: shinier elements, and I think Heartbeat City kind of leans
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: more towards the cleaning cleaner, shinier elements and doesn't have
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: as much of the edgy elements in it.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: One of the things before we move on and get
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: into the breakup of the cars, musically, the band is
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: underrated and and I have a friend who's a drummer
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: and he loves that one song touch and go, oh yeah,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: what is it that they are doing there that is
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: so unique?
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: The time? This signature changes in a very a very
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: unnatural way.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: The synths and the drums are not right.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the synth doing the sort of stabby parts, and
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: the drums are doing like a kind of like it's
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: almost like impressionistic. It feels like kind of like echoing
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: it with a little bit of a lag or something. Yeah,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: but it's you know, somehow it it's like it feels
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: like it's kind of fall apart or something, or fall
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: fall down the stairs or something. And then and then
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: it kicks in with that sort of like uplifting kind of.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Like how do you describe that?
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, A little bit a little bit of rockabilly
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: kind of gallop. It's a little bit of a like
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: uh Mystery Train, you know, Johnny Burnett trio kind of
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: or or like uh very Buddy Holly Peggy Sue kind
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: of drum pattern. It goes into obviously Rick reaching back
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: to that.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: You know, it really is probably the most interesting song
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: to listen to of the Cars catalog musically.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that album. I think that album
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: it is really come into its own as being like
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: one of their best albums. And to a lot of
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: say this, a lot of people say it's the Cars, Devo.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Album talking Panorama Panorama.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: Y yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know it's very ave,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: aren't kind of proto industrial? Uh? You know you hear
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: like maybe h David Bowie Heroes album a little bit
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: in there and little like you know, obviously some craftwork
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: and craft rock stuff. Yeah, you know, bands like NOI, Harmonia,
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: you know, certainly Suicide and you know Suicide and Devo.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: Uh and you know, not a lot of what led
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: us to described the songs as being inside out songs
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: sounding like inside out music when Rick was teaching him
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: the songs. Yeah, yeah, but there's no there's no obvious
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, Touch and Go has that kind of hummable
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: chorus part, but there's no obvious like huge choruses or
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: sing along parts, you know, definitely not the masked vocals
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: of the first album. It's interesting. I mean those first
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: three albums are those are definitely my favorite, and and
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: the first one is just totally flawless. I think I
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: come back to Candy Oh as being my fat Yeah. Yeah,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: I think it's it's just GARAGEI enough and and Double
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: Life is that might be my favorite song.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's a dark aspect of some of those
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: songs too.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, dangerous type, Yeah.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. There's a phone call that would change Rick's life.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: The call is with actor Timothy Hutton.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what happened. David Geffen had been in a party
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: with UH with Timothy Hutton and played him eight he
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: had a ape of because you know, David Geffen was
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: associated with Asylum and Electro Asylum were merged and everything
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: for a little bit and played him advanced tape of
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: of Heartbeat City and Timothy Hutton said, I really like
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: that song drive and you know, Geff and got worked
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: back to UH to Rick and Rick called the next
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: day and said, how would you like to do a video? Yeah,
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: and and then that's how Rick ends up Paulina is
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: you know hard to be in the video? Yep in
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: the video, and that's how they meet and just you
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: know this, the fuse was lit. And she had talked
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: about this, you know, this is quoting her book, but
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: she had seen a video for a song from rick
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: solo album for solo album before and you know, on
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: MTV and had become infatuated with him. And then goes
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: to you know, she was top paid model, had recently
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: moved to New York and uh, you know was was,
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: you know, answered an ad for work to be in
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: a music video for and Lo and behold, Like he
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: walks in the room.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: And I really love this about Paul. I was in
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: the mall recently and I saw this a display of her.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: She's on an advertisement for jewelry or perfum or something
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: like that. Still beautiful, but yeah, nothing fake. She's got
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: the grays there, She's not trying to She's got the
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: wrinkles from getting older. And guess what, still stunning. Oh yeah,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: no need for the plastic surgery and all this stuff, right,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: And I love that. It just props to her for that. Yeah,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: I've always wondered what happened between Heartbeat City and the
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: next album, which is not Canady Seven's Door to Door,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: which was a commercial disappointment number twenty six on the charts,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: went gold but no hit single Cars Are No More.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: You're right that the plan was to quote create something
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: that was closer to the sound of their garage band beginnings.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Instead it would be the sound of a group falling apart.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: What happened, Well, they were you know, all not really
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: talking each other, especially animosity was kind of you know,
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: had really had really blown up between between Rick and Ben.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: I mean they ended up. When they toured on that album,
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Ben rode in his own vehicle, separately from everybody else,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: and you know, he's from what I understand, Ben was
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: really resentful of He had approached Rick about writing some
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: songs with his girlfriend for the Cars, and Rick had
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: you know, said no, that's not the cars, you know,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: and they'd had a falling out, and Ben didn't take
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: it very well. So they you know, a lot of
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: times they weren't all in the studio at the same time.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: They were just come in and record their parts. And
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: there's there's two songs on that album that were songs
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: that they had were in their repertoire during the punk
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: era that you know, seventy six seventy seven era, songs
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: that were already written and they went back to fill
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: out the album. They went back to record those songs,
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: take what you Want and Tata Wayaweya, which is a
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: great song.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: It's a solid album.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's some great I mean, the title
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: track is that's a total what a fierce rocker. I mean,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: that's like a hardcore song.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah, it just didn't have a huge hit single
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: on it.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: No, no, I mean, but you know, there's definitely some
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: some great tracks on it.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Podcasts will be back after this.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Never ever, ever, under any circumstances, say I'll be right back,
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: because you won't be back. I'm getting out of the
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: berrial on one. Yes, sure, I'll be right back.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Find the bookdown Rock website at booked on Rock dot com.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: There you can find all the back episodes of the show,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: the latest episode in video and audio, links to all
• 52:23
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• 52:25
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• 52:31
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• 52:34
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• 52:37
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• 52:40
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• 52:42
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• 52:47
  Speaker 1: Elliot Eason talks about when Rick told him he was quitting,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: and this is in the book. Their mixing recordings for
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: a radio program, and Rick is just saying, you know,
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna leave the group. Yeah, yeah, I said,
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: all the blood went to my feet.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, they were an Electric lady and they were, yeah,
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: mixing some early live you know, recordings for a live album,
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: and Rick just kind of dropped the bomb like that.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: You know, he was disappointed that Rick was becoming, as
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: he just described it, self absorbed, that he felt like
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: he didn't want to rely on the band. He he
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: felt like he wasn't getting the credit he so deserved
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: because this idea was that he needed the band around
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: him to succeed. And that made him resentful. But that's
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: the management, that's the manager getting into his ear.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: I think, right, yeah, well you know, who knows, we
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: weren't there, you know, and those things are always very complicated.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: I mean I would think like probably both of those
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: things entered into things, but probably not the only things
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: that entered into things too, you know, but certainly wouldn't
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: have been helpful in terms of, like, you know, smoothing
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: things out. But you know, also it's like, yeah, they
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: did have a little bit of a break a couple
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: of years between Shake It Up and Heartbeat City, but
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: you know, there's always still work to be done. I
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: Mean a lot of times with with bands, it's it's
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: you know, it comes down to if and the clash
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, Joe Strummer said this, if we had just
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: had a break in there at some point, you know,
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: we would have you know, I think we would have
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: been able to get through our you know.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's hard because when you're a successful band,
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: you're being pushed to go out there and get on
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: the road, and then as soon as you're done, record
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: an album and you go around around around.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Yep, exactly.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: But he had Rick had. The first two solo albums
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: were successful. He had in nineteen eighty two, beat It Tude.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's really good, good, good album.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: Top thirty album. This Side of Paradise in nineteen eighty
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: six was still technically while I believe he's still with
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: the Cars, that's the number thirty one album. But I
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: remember in ninety one when Fireball Zone came out, and
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: I remember it was almost like for me these classic
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: rock artists. I became such a fan that I was
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: almost rooting for them, like you're rooting for a team.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: And so I remember, I remember I listened to the
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: first single from that album and I was really hoping.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: I really wanted to see because he had been out
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: of the spotlight for a while and I was I
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: was hoping that it would it would hit and it
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: just didn't. Yeah, he was he was doing He did
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Weezer around ninety three, ninety four or maybe further out.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: When did he When did he start working with them?
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: I think you started working with them ninety two and
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: then you know, ninety as a producer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: Those fifteen years he's doing a little bit of solo recording,
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: but he's doing a lot of producing. Yeah, no doubt
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: did he do No.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Did no doubt. I mean before then, but going farther back,
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, he did well. His first production job and
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: the one that gets some gets forgotten about is he
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: produced a single by Boston band called third Rail. They
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: were an early punk band that used to they played
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: the rat a lot. They're very Veled Underground influenced, So,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: you know, Veled Underground were, you know, one of his
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: three greatest influences. He always says that the first Velt
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Underground album is he thinks thought was the best, you know,
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: best album, his favorite album. So he produced a single
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: by third Rail which came out in nineteen seventy eight,
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: and then he worked with the band from New York
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: called the Fast, early early punk band from New York
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: sort of. They kind of started out at the glam
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: Era and then and then you know, it was you know,
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: transitioned into punk. Uh. And then well, I'll talk about
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: in the in the book how that the singer Paul
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: Zone when they were working with Rick in the studio.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: Rick had a notebook he was looking at and it
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: turned out it was all these notes he had taken
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: working alongside Roy Thomas Baker when The Cars were making
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: the first album. So he was referring to all these
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: notes about how to place microphones and all this. Yeah,
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: and then the next band he worked with after that
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: was Suicide, producing their second album, which that was his
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: big his first, you know, big known production job. But
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: he produced the Bad Brains in nineteen eighty two and
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: then the album Rock for Light. He produced an EP
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: by them, and then the album Rock for Light which
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: came out in eighty three. He produced Romeo Void Never
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: Say Never. So he had a few things under his
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: belt before before We and No Doubt and all that stuff.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: Ben Or meanwhile, he's struggling after the Car's breakup. Yeah,
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: what's he doing during those years after the Cars?
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: Well, he made that one album, The Lace, which came
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: out in nineteen eighty five, had that. Yeah, the hit
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: song stay the Night is basically songs that he wrote
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: with his girlfriend at the time I think was Diane
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: gray Page I believe was her name, but you know,
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: had the hit and I guess he's touring on on
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: it here and there, but he didn't make any other
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: records after that.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: You know, it hit him hard. The breakup.
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: It seemed like it did. Yeah. I mean it's almost
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: like I think and Jim Goodkind from Milkwood has said
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: this about you know. I mean, other people said how
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: Ben was just sort of like a go with the flow,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: sort of happy, go lucky guy. But it seemed like
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: he attached himself to Rick, like that he needed Rick
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: more than Rick needed him. Just I think he was
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: just one of those artists who was a fantastic player,
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: uh and singer you could play any instrument, uh, but
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: not really a songwriter, you know. And and you know
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: I think that uh, I mean, yeah, Rick, Rick did
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: some some cool solo stuff, you know, the beatitude I
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: think was the height of his solo records. But this
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: is it's interesting as a situation is to me. It
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: reminds me of the band with within without Robbie Robertson.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that those guys are great players,
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: but they weren't songwriters. I mean, Richardmanuel wrote a couple
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: of one couple songs and then he moved away from
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: songwriting and Robbie Robinson on his own, he made music,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: but I don't think it was as anywhere near as
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: interesting as what he did with the band. And I
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: think I think Rick needed the cars, and the cars
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: needed Rick.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: And Ben was self medicating during that period, drinking.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: From yeah from one airstand like, yeah, Rick, did you
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: know he didn't he did? You know? Obviously he I
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: think he's real when he wasn't with the cars, what
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: he was doing that the best. I mean, yeah, he
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: made some He definitely made some interesting solo stuff, but
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: his production for other artists I think was that had
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: taken precedent, and I think he was comparatively doing better
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: in that realm, you know, as as an.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: Artist, and that Rick and Ben aren't talking until Rick
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: finds out that Ben's health is failing and you better
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: talk to him, and you better do this otherwise it's
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: too late.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Right yeah, Yeah, And I don't know if you've watched
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: that that interview that was done right before.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: You know, yes, certainly, certainly very hard to watch, very
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: hard to watch, Ben, great great interview and and you know,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: one of the things that really came across to me
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: watching that interview is that I think everybody was came
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: across like how how they were all good guys.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Man, you know really so yeah, very very much so. Yeah,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: and he was so thin and frail, Ben Or but
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: he was there. He made it.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: He was there. Yeah. And from what I understand, you
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: know that the two of them were able to get
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: together and you know, kind of mended the fence. I
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: guess as much as you can, you know, situation at
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: that point. But you know, it's certainly it's certainly good
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: that that it happened. And and the interview is as
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: hard it is to watch Ben, it's it's it's a great,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: great interview. And there's some some very funny moments. Yeah,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: you know memories.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: That was for an anniversary video, wasn't it. It was
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: to mark the anniversary of I like.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: That well, I keep aligned with anything, but it was
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: it was an extra on a DVD of the car's
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: appearance on a nineteen seventy eight German music TV show
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: called Music Loden.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, this is in two thousand, I think, wasn't it?
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah? But the but the set, it's a it's a
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight TV appearance by the Cars on this
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: German show and it's great. I mean, yeah, they're they're
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: really at their at their height, you know.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: And Ben passed away shortly after that.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I want to say, like just a couple
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: of months later.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, October third, two thousand. It says here, Yeah,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: well I wish he could have been part of that
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: album in twenty eleven. That was a move like this, yeah,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: which which shocked Elliott and Greg. They went out as
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: the Car well they called it The New Cars with
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: Todd Runggren on vocals two thousand and five. There was
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: actually an attempt to get Rick on board for this,
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: but he didn't want anything to do with it.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: No, he didn't want to I think, you know, I
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: mean from what David says, you know that like lawyers
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: got in, management got involved and sort of like didn't
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: didn't you know, make it, didn't lay out the offer
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: in the right way or.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it didn't help any it didn't help.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, but yeah, I mean, you know, Rick was
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: obviously he was doing well as a producer at that point,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: and he was more focused on that. So I think
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: that that had part part of the reason, and also
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: maybe didn't have any new material. You know, he ended
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: up writing the songs that became move like This later on,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: and when he was writing those songs, it sort of
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: hit him it maybe be good to do it with
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: with the guys.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the guys. Was a little surprised to hear that.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Elliott gets the call out of nowhere. Hey, what
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: do you think if you want to do this? Sure?
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's a great record.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I was gonna ask you about that. It
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: really is an outstanding record.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Blue Tip is right up there with one of
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: the Yeah, one of their best songs, I think.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's quite a few songs on there that
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: maybe some fans haven't really checked out because it didn't
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: do all that well as far as getting near play
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: on the radio. Because by that time, now we're a
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: lot of these heritage classic rock stations were more interested
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: in what these bands did in the past.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's I recommend that album if you.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: You know, if you had any qualms about it, you
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: will not be disappointed. And if you like that kind
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: of cars, like new wave, you know, sounds like that,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's great. I think it's I don't. I
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: think it's it's one of their best albums. I think,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe I don't know, maybe since it I mean,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: it might even after Panorama, it might be my next favorite.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Wow, how about that? Yeah, Blue Tip, too late, too soon,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: sad song, sad song. Yeah, take another look as another one.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: I love m It's solid. I mean, if you're a.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: Fan of the cars, you will not be disappointed.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's and it's a good one. I
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: mean obviously, if Bennett been there, who knows, you know
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: how you know, it would have been you know, would
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: have been great. But you know, but it's still a
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: good a really good note to go out on, for sure.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: And they went out on the road. But that was
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: limits did and we would find out eventually that's because
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: Rick was not doing well right. Yeah, what was the
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: cause of death?
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: Hypertensive and our ethereosclerotic cardiovascular disease also known as ethereal sclerosis. Yeah,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: an accumulation of plaque in the arteries that often weakens
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: the heart's muscle and pulmonary emphysima was listed as a
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: contributing factor. So the smoking, you know he had, he
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: had quit I think like fourteen years before he died,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: but he'd smoked for a long time before he quit,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: so it didn't help.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then lo and behold again with the mystery
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: that Rick Ocassick was. He's living with Paulina, but they
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: are separated. She's seeing other people, but he's he's still there.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: They're living together, and she's the one who finds him.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: She he went to bed and she came in in
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: the morning to bring him coffee and check on him.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: And that's what you found him.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: On rock Podcasts. We'll be back after this.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, here's life videy look the Way to the Future,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: to a horizon, neverre's mind on where you are?
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: Hey, guys, thanks so much for checking out the Booked
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: on Rock podcast. If you've just found the podcast, welcome.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: If you've been listening, thank you so much for your support,
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: and make sure you tell a friend, a family member,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: share on social media and let people know about Booked
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: on Rock. And if you do like the podcast, make
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: sure you subscribe give a five star review. Wherever you
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: listen to the Booked on Rock podcast, Run Amazon, Apple, iHeart, Spotify, Spreaker,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: tune In, and on YouTube music. You can check out
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: to the show, and you do have a chapter on
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: his separation with Paula. Just after Rick spoke at the
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: O was Rock Hall of Fame induction, she posted on
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: Facebook that they'd split and and you know, it seems
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: is that they had a complicated relationship. Like Greg Hawk said,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: as long as he played with Rick, he still felt
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: like he didn't really know him. Yeah, you know, she was.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: And then there's kind of get it gets ugly, it
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: kind of gets sad that it's something about his will.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: She's not in it.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: I don't Yeah, I didn't get into any of that
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: stuff at all.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: Now that that's stuff that you know, that's their business.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to. And she whatever she wanted
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: to have covered out about that is in her book.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: So I mean, I'm you know, I'm I'm a music fan,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: music is my music is my life. And I see that.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: I saw that in Rick too, especially as I started
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: learning more about him. So that's what I wanted to
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: focus on with the book, and I think that that's
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: what people want to remember him for.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: I listened to the music now and I after reading
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: the book now I'm listening intently at the lyrics and
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: try to determ. I mean, who's this about? What's this about?
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: What's he thinking? You know?
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, a lot of it is, like you know,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: he was influenced by the beat poets who used words
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: in a very surreal way. And that's something that Bob
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: Dylan had started doing too, which is one of you know,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: early on. So that's that's Bob dylan big influence on
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: on Rick, formative influence. So so a lot of it
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: is is uh uh, words just used to create images.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: Maybe, so it may not even be autobiographical, but.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: Not always, but not always.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: And that's the way I think Rick would like to
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: have it. Did writing the book give you a better
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: idea of who Rick o'cassick was as a person for you?
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: Or is he still a mystery?
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: He's still a mystery, Yeah, But I mean, you know,
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: there's there's definitely, uh, some things I learned that I
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: feel I gave me a better idea. But there's some
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: things that uh, they you know, they helped me see
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: the music itself in in ways that I hadn't before
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: and appreciate the music, you know, thinking about some part
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: of his life while I was listening to to a
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: song and and uh, you know that opened up some
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: some new some new tours, you know. But I mean,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's interesting. I mean, you know, like we
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: were saying before Greg Hawks, I was saying that, you know,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: we played in the band with a couple bands and
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: felt like you never really knew him. And there was
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: like during one you know, Rick, Greg Hawks had told
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: me the story about how you know sit in the
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: book that they first tour they were out in It
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: was seventy nine, so it might have been the tour
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: for Candia, but they were playing in Portland, Oregon. And
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: I know Greg has told a story in other interviews,
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: but Rick mentioned, oh, my son is might be at
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: the show tonight, and Greg only knew about you know,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: his son that he had with his second wife back
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: in Boston where Greg met him. Greg had no idea
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: that he actually had a wife before his second wife, Susan,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: and let alone they had two kids with that first wife.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: Never came up during conversation. I mean it's like.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: Ben and Ben would have known about it, because Rick
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: and known Ben during that time, but Ben never mentioned
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: it to anybody either.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: And it's amazing. Yeah, I mean all the life on
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: the road, they're all up in each other's face all
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: the time and hanging out talking.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, he never came up. You know. It was
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: all about the music, you know, and and you know,
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: Rick's first wife was a woman named Connie, and I
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: mentioned that and Greg was like, I've never heard that
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: name before. I never even knew what her name was. Yeah,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: So that's so there was some amazing things that that
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: that you know, I kind of stumbled into.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to me, that's that's fascinating to me. I mean
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: that's and that you're talking about an era prior to
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: the Internet and social media and all that stuff. So
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: it was I'd like the mystery that I missed the
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: mystery in my favorite mystery.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: And it was definitely like being a being a detective,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: you know, trying to do this night.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: So well, the book is out today as we're recording
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: this right. September eighteenth is the release thing, I believe,
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: so people can get it now, moving in stereo ric
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: ocast at the driving force of the cars. Yeah, oh
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: that's right. Find the book wherever books are sold. Look
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: forward at your nearest bookstore. You can also go to
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: books on rock dot com to find your nearest independent bookstore.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: People can find you online.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: Peter.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: Social media website.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I have a page for uh it's called
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: Peter Aaron, musician and author on Facebook, so.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: People can reach out to you there. Peter, thank you again.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: I I was looking very much forward to this to
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: talk about the cars, and now I'm going to listen
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: to some cars music right on.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: That's that's that's the goal.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: Awesome, all right, Peter, thank you.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: All right man, we'll give them m that's it. It's
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: in the books.