Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH S1:E4 - Yair's personal story
Transcript
- Oliver Spike Joseph: Hi, Welcome to really Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. This is our conversation about what it is to be really Jewish. We're back for another week. If you're here for the first time, Bruchim HaBa'im If you're back for another listen, welcome back. We're taking a closer look this week at Yair Catch up on last week's podcast for a little bit of a closer look on who I am and my journey. This is a podcast where we take a look at some of the big topics that affecting the Jewish world and specifically how they personally affect us and our own Jewish lives, journeys, both in friendship and also individually. Yair is professor in in Israel. I'm a rabbi in the UK. I'm religious, Yair is secular. Welcome to our conversation about ⁓ really Jewish, next leg. Yeah, here. Welcome back. Yair Eldan: Hey Oliver, it's great to be with you. Oliver Spike Joseph: This week we're looking at you. It's all Yair for the podcast. Tell us a little bit about how you've been Yair your and particularly how Judaism has shaped you. Yair Eldan: you come to an age, where not easy to actually choose one narrative from the you have, I think could choose several when I think about it. have an identity ⁓ connected to the fact that I was born in the US to an American mother and an Israeli father. And came to Be'er-Sheva, which is a southern city ⁓ in when I three years old. So I'm practically Israeli. I was in Ashkenazi, who was actually living in a very Mizrahi city and Mizrahi environment which shaped my life a lot of ways. I could choose narrative of the individual with regard to society and the fact that I feel a lot of my life is around my feeling I am ⁓ in the or marginal place society my individuality. is very important to me. I had a friend, talked to you about my friend who committed suicide two years ago, very dear friend, and I remember we had this artistic plan and we actually put forward to ask people, Oliver, to describe lives in three sentences. ⁓ And I tried it in my class in law school, and it's not easy for students to actually describe their lives in three sentences. When I had to choose, you you took me, you know, yeah, exactly. ⁓ think I will choose ⁓ home narrative. I was born to a home with another three boys, not like you, Oliver, that you have sisters there's, you the connection with them was, you know, part of Yair identity. So I up a very masculine family. Oliver Spike Joseph: I wanna hear. Yair Eldan: my father, four boys, and my mother who tried desperately make our femininity more, ⁓ noticed a she is still a very protective mom, a very Polish mom in a way, in a good way. mean, the home was a very warm, protective, all-encompassing home. ⁓ And I remember that loved home, but at the same I needed to... burst from it and it go and find my way and it shaped my world. I tried actually to go out, it was involved with rebellion breaking a of the concepts that I grew on and this narrative my I It's the fact that I felt at home I studied Torah. Wherever was, it was when I studied Mishnah, when I studied Talmud. Obviously Bible, beautiful. text of the Bible, I felt at home wherever I was. So you know the metaphor Sabbath as a Temple. Arthur Green, I think. No? time as place. For me, the text was a place. And I it when was the army and all sorts of. different dangerous places and I felt it obviously in university and afterwards all the time. So, you know, going out of home, my odyssey was very painful. I had to distance my parents and my brothers and just to find my identity. And a way, ⁓ my is going home to my parents, reconciliation with my parents, with my family, with trying to find myself in this very complicated of family. ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: Thanks Thanks for opening up. The beginning of Yair story, it's interesting noting that this attempt to describe our story in short form, I felt very much walking away from last week's podcast that it was just like very much a beginning, even though we spent 40 minutes just talking about me. I think one of the ways that we frame this podcast is about some of individuation, some kind of separation between secular and religious. tell us a couple of words about how you identify in those terms, because there's definitely, for those who are not coming from an Israeli background, there's definitely clear terminology in Israeli life that you're either Hiloni or 'Dati', you're either religious or you're secular. Those terms are clearly both in the Jewish world more generally and in Israel, much more complicated when you start to break them down. But ⁓ certainly, in the conversations that we've had, up until now identified that you came from a religious home and you became secular. So tell us a little bit about that journey and also tell us just a couple of words on how you identify now story. Yair Eldan: Well, sure. I'm secular. Listen, I'm Totally secular. I eat Hametz (forbidden grains) on Pesach And I I don't fast on Yom Kippur Having said that I'm Jewish in all my body and soul ⁓ just so Jewish ⁓ allusions are all from Jewish texts and I I live the Jewish texts and my Jewish identity every day I mean every minute Totally secular. I eat Hametz (forbidden grains) on Pesach And I I don't fast on Yom Kippur Having said that I'm Jewish in all my body and soul ⁓ just so Jewish ⁓ allusions are all from Jewish texts and I I live the Jewish texts and my Jewish identity every day I mean every minute Oliver Spike Joseph: I'm I'm Yair Eldan: That a very morbid aspect as well because I'm also very obsessed with Holocaust and Holocaust stories and Holocaust philosophy that from this experience, this very extreme experience that our people and the world went through. So I'm secular, but Jewish, proudly Jewish in a deep way. I remember that I could describe my secularity in terms of going away from my parents and my family. mean, breaking the rules that I grew up on and everything. To be honest, I remember myself little. On the one hand, fascinated by Jewish law and ⁓ to you I had this desire to understand everything. But at the same time, I hated the itself. mean, you know, doing it. I remember, know, breaking very early in my life, trying to, you know, open the light when it was forbidden and I was sure the sky will fall on me and I remember it was before first grade there is something about me that is, you I'm... anti-nomian, against law in a way, but fascinated by it. And it's also connected to my work I always relate to law as something that is very dear to me, and I understand that it's necessary for us live together. We ⁓ have to have very rules. But at the same time, is something again inside me. Maybe it's the artist inside me that is against it and always criticizing it, trying to understand it and sometimes you know saying not every law is supposed to be and you have to ⁓ abide the laws every all the all the time Oliver Spike Joseph: So tell us a little bit more about Yair journey. You kind of skated across childhood and holding to the text when you were in the army. Tell us a little bit more about Yair own life path. Yair Eldan: What would I think? Yeah, I think about, thank you, mean, when I think about it... life-changing events. I think when I was in sixth grade, I was a very popular, in a good way, boy, very good boy, trying to really make my parents proud of me, a very nice 'Yeled Tov Yerushalayim' (Israeli slang 'good boy') boy. And obviously I had this feeling that I don't like this position, and I remember me and other friends, we started to smoke cigarettes. it was sixth grade and as a consequence of that I was ostracized by guys girls in Bnei Akiva and I that's a very, you know, a very important event in my life. falling from being very popular to being ostracized, shunned, made think about how life is fragile, how cruel people be. And I became sensitive. was sensitive even before, but I became even more sensitive. And this sensitive guy... I always think about Haredi (the ultra religious), who say they don't want to go to the army because it will threaten their Jewish identity, their Jewish way of life. And I'm looking at this young boy like me. I was very sensitive. I wasn't a pacifist, in no way. But I was sensitive. I was writing poems when I got into the army. And I found myself in very difficult situations. I say to the Haredi who doesn't want to recruit. was sensitive. I went through it. Everybody is sensitive. It's not easy for anyone. they avoid it. the fact that religious people actually act in that way, when I did it and I had sensitivities, I find it to understand and believe. Oliver Spike Joseph: You're saying that this process of going to the army was a growth process for you to face some of those and those perhaps That's the that you're making? Yair Eldan: In a way, wouldn't say growth. Only now when I'm ⁓ I could say, wow, yeah, I grew up, I had to ⁓ up to challenges I would never think I would have to do. mean, to be a commander in a way ⁓ young in very dangerous places. where I myself feel that I'm trapped in this situation. I feel that I want to, you know, I'm going to die for nothing. it was a very complicated emotionally, psychologically situation for me. Only now I can see that I, the that I survived it made me It's like cliche says, but... But yeah, it also shaped my sensitivities. ⁓ I saw people who when they get power, the power of weapons, the power of command, they can actually exploit people. I could see that. But I also saw ⁓ some very inspirational ⁓ and people. So, you know, I was to life in a very deep way and ⁓ it did affect Oliver Spike Joseph: So I want to get to the text that you're going to present today because each week we present just a little segment of Jewish learning. But just tell us a couple of two more stop off places on Yair way today. This is a very we'll get we'll come to this more in the duration of our podcast because part of the podcast that we present is about our own personal journeys and and sharing some of that. But tell us a couple of more stop off places and then I'd like to get to our Yair Eldan: Hahaha Oliver Spike Joseph: a little segment of learning if that's okay. Yair Eldan: Sure, I think my first marriage a very milestone in my identity because I again came back to this feeling of being ⁓ me ⁓ society, with regard norms and life ⁓ in way. ⁓ one thing ⁓ that had to and the first time in my life I married very early. mean, took Yair time, ⁓ Oliver. There is advantages and disadvantages in every situation as we know, but I married very early and in a way I wasn't ripe and prepared for relationship. And ⁓ when came of this marriage, I had to understand who I am and it took me to a journey which was also... journey my first marriage because I wasn't in my place. I a lot of time ⁓ ⁓ texts. was into the texts. I was living the texts. I was living a life, ⁓ an inner all the time. A very Jewish when you think about it because I was writing about the connection between death. and excommunication in Jewish texts and you know it's part of my history, personal history and I ⁓ stunned to see that the text in Jewish rabbinic text you know that actually specify all the mourning customs you know that you're not allowed to cut Yair hair that you're not allowed to put on tefillin before the kvurah (burial) that you're not allowed to wash. The context of it is seeing these mourning customs something that's supposed to discipline the mourner, ⁓ person who is mourning, seeing as some ⁓ of anti-social persona in a way, which is counterintuitive to our view that mourning customs in Jewish law are... They're poetic. They're genius. here you can see that it's different way. So I got into it and I was inside the text all the time. ⁓ But the divorce, ⁓ I to go into life because living ⁓ actually in contact with actual life and not in text. And that's what I understood in order to understand who I am. So a way, the text I actually chose, Oliver, is that, you know? The fact that you ⁓ can't all Yair money or Yair cars. and inner life and studying and text, which is a very Jewish thing to do, right? But you have to live in a way. And in a way, I'm just saying it as a Zionist. Zionism was a turn, a turn against exiled Jews that were in either, you know... going out and forgetting their Jewish identity, but going inside. Yeah, ⁓ think, mean, it's a tension that ⁓ deal with every day, whether or not to open yourself or to close yourself to the society you live in. Oliver Spike Joseph: Okay, so a fascinating kind of journey. Take us a little bit slowly into the text because for the listener, we'll put the links in the show notes to where all of the texts come from that we present ⁓ Really Jewish, so you can look inside as we say. But take us slowly into this Mishnah from Shabbat about both the text, a tiny bit of its context, and then how it relates to Yair story. Yair Eldan: First of all, I love Mishnah. just love Mishnah. Talking about ⁓ I said before, ⁓ love it and I'm addicted to it. And wasn't surprised to hear that Chaim Nachman Bialik, national poet of Israel in a way, which is a he had a very complicated identity and... but he was also fascinated by Mishnah. And I love Mishnah because Mishnah is law, it's not a regular law. It's ⁓ law that encompasses the Jewish... civilization in a way. In a few words, in a few disagreements, you can understand a lot about the consciousness of the legislators. It's true about Israeli law as well, but the fact the Hebrew, the metaphors, world of the Tanayim (rabbis of the Mishnah) who wrote the Mishnah, is so rich that a way the Mishnah is ⁓ favorable for me and laws. ⁓ I first of all, I love law, but I love ⁓ Mishnah. in particular. I chose a Mishnah ⁓ says in ⁓ Shabbat that says, And the Mishnah that with regard to all sacred writings, one may rescue from the fire and Shabbat. I mean, the Mishnah gives the permission to go into this gray area maybe breaking Shabbat because you try to actually save these scriptures from the fire. So maybe you will break Shabbat in a very, ⁓ mean, in regular place, they won't allow it. But if... There's a danger to Kitvei Ha'kodesh, to the scriptures. They allow it. And Bialik... Oliver Spike Joseph: So, no, so I'm just, the sake of clarity, this is a hypothetical burning building. And in the hypothetical burning building, probably what we're talking about in the main is the Sefer Torah which for many generations, including in the Tanaitic in 2000 years ago in the Rabbinic period, probably there was some kind of cupboard that wasn't fireproof in those days. There was probably... at least one if not more, Sifre Torah, the five books of the Torah, the five books Moses inside ark in one scroll. So Kitvei Ha'kodesh is more broad than that. It's in the Mishnah goes on to say that in any language and we're talking about lots of different scrolls potentially, but just for the imagination the listener, we're probably talking at least for where I go to. Yair Eldan: Yeah. Oliver Spike Joseph: We're talking about the Sefer Torah in the synagogue and the synagogue is burning. Also what's interesting here is... It is a very visceral image because Yair are still at home, their rocket's still falling on Israel right now. There was parts of the holy sites hit in Jerusalem last night ⁓ to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, which is a Christian holy site. But there's something very visceral about the possibility. ⁓ think one of the attacks in Be'er Sheva was of a synagogue. This something which is achshavi. It's of the moment' in terms of the description that we're discussing, but you're also permitting this to be a personal exploration, a text which is personal to you. So tell us a little bit more about how it becomes personal and some of the scaffolding also that Bialik provides Yair Eldan: Right. Right. I think, I mean, totally right and the ⁓ is great. Wow. I think the Mishnah is basically, I'm not sure it talks about the synagogue. I mean, it seems that it could be a home, you know, that you have scrolls at home, but... But nevertheless, you're right. Yeah, we leave. I mean, we leave our house every siren. We leave our house and go to the shelter. you never know when you what you come back. Actually, I mean, twice in the last two weeks, I left something on ⁓ stove. And when I came back after the siren, the house was full of smoke. And I actually repressed it until now ⁓ you mentioned it. It's very scary. very weird thing about it and it happened to me. it's a and now I really I'm really strict about not leaving anything we go out of the house but Bialik ⁓ Bialik his very famous essay ⁓ Halacha Agada (law & fable) he takes the Halacha and he says listen this is a a proof that there is no real distinction between halacha, the law, and agada, the narrative, the story, because every law is actually a story. Every law behind it, there's like a very rich, colorful picture of a life. I.e. ⁓ You know, there's a picture of people who actually put the texts, you know, in the first place. The texts are so important that you can actually, you know, go into this grey area of maybe breaking Shabbat for them. And Shabbat, Shabbat is the most important, maybe the most important mitzvah in Judaism. me as a secular, I don't keep an orthodox Shabbat, but I keep Shabbat. Shabbat for me, when I go out Friday night, Shabbat is Shabbat. Shabbat has a special ⁓ ⁓ When write on Shabbat, it's different. Yeah, I mean Shabbat is a very special ⁓ time me. It's, you know, my father always says, ⁓ as ⁓ it's best that Judaism gave to the world. You know, the Megilat HaAtsma'ut, the independence scroll says it, ⁓ Israel. says, know, that we gave the world the Bible. I think we gave the world Shabbat. Shabbat is amazing. So you can break Shabbat. And Bialik says there is no real dichotomy between halacha and agada. And what I thought about is you have to take it one step further. You have to think about you take this metaphor seriously, what it means is that you refer to the text, to the limud, to the ideas, you refer to them human beings, because the famous halach in Shabbat is, piquach nefesh Doch'eh Shabbat, you can break Shabbat if someone is in danger, that's understandable. But you can also ⁓ go this... You know, very complicated situation if the text are in danger. So you compare the text to a person who is a living person. That's a little bit alarming for me. also a thing that I have to take into consideration and not accept in ⁓ whole when I think about it. Oliver Spike Joseph: So the description you're taking is kitvei ha-kodesh and this exchange of whether we do or don't save the texts. Whether we do or don't save the texts. And the fact that we know, like you say, the halacha, one of the most famous halachot of Shabbat described, nefesh tuche shabbat, saving a life. You save a life in all eventualities, even on Shabbat. that somehow this interacts with Yair own story of Yair own journey, of some kind of interaction, both with the importance of the tradition, but also somehow distancing from the tradition. Go on. Yair Eldan: Good. the sensitivity to words. mean, I'm sensitive to words and I analyze laws as if they were poems. know, the best words the best order, in way. And I always pay attention to words. But it was like ⁓ an alarm for me or a lighting for me that says, Yair ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: Hmm. Yair Eldan: Don't forget life. Life is also important. You can't always dwell into texts and you have to live, have to love, you have to do things, you have to take care of your body in a way. mean, ⁓ that is connected to journey in a and not be always in... inside this very realm of words that I tend to actually feel at home. That's the home for me. I so comfortable. And people, you think about it, meeting people. Our conversation, Oliver, not easy when you think about it. That's to bridge, to bridge. I'm talking even about the cultural difference. I'm not talking about the different environment that we live in, in ⁓ Israel, you in England. I'm talking about the fact that human beings are just meeting and it's not easy just to connect. It always threatened me in a way and I'm always a little bit afraid of people. So I found the text so comfortable. that's why, I I came this ⁓ balance. I'm there, but I want to go to be balanced ⁓ to just, know, enjoy and think about ⁓ ideas and but also don't forget that life, there's actions. There are bad bodies. Oliver Spike Joseph: It's a feel it feels very challenging as well. think this this dichotomy or this or this line between the secular and the religious I think this is maybe terrain ⁓ I'll come to at some point feel you know describing in last week's podcast that I'm somebody who's become more religious over time. It's a fascinating journey for me. And I also think that in my own way, I balance out between the secular and the religious. take very seriously time outdoors and exercise ⁓ fun, I think there is latitude and for fun in our own family and our own lives. And that feels very important and articulated here. But I think also the point that you're making is it can be generalized, that there are lots of us. I often find at the end of week when I get to Shabbat, for example, some level work is easier because it's a blackboard and it's a pen or it's a computer and it's ⁓ spreadsheet ⁓ or a budget they have to write. It's tangible. That's also part of what you're describing when you talk about text. Text is tangible. The Mishnah has been a set for more almost 2000 years ⁓ and going to be the same. So when I open up the book of the Mishnah or whatever book it is, It's the same material and the terrain of human interaction and even just having fun and living life outside of the synagogue, outside of the textual tradition is much more complicated as our relationships. So it feels like terrain to explore the dichotomy and explore the diversity between those two places. Yair Eldan: Yeah. Yeah, and know, I'm not judgmental about everybody's... way of life and journey. There are people who are not, they don't want relationships. That's fine. I mean, that's, everybody has his own in life. There are some people who don't want kids. That's fine as well. Everybody has, preferences. There are people who are gay. There are people who are religious or secular, but... My feeling, my personal feeling is that relationship, as you came out of your relationships are hard. they're hard because they actually you, you get a of yourself every day. And that's not easy, just to look at yourself through others. and you from it. So ⁓ I ⁓ not I feel that I benefited from it ⁓ and happy I took the risk ⁓ but I every day, mean ⁓ still now, still very sensitive and ⁓ sometimes hurt people ⁓ and it's a that I feel. have to take that's in order not to to to become a text myself in a way Oliver Spike Joseph: guess in that way we're... I don't know where we've got to is some kind of... I often think that one of the Jewish exports is Shabbat, like you say. We shared of that with the world, the possibility of creating restful space or creating one day week where you don't work. I also think that an aspect of Jewish strength is also management of transition. think about it in relation to Havdalah, the ceremony that we like. a many-wick candle at the end of Shabbat to ease us past that they have rested back into the week in the same way that we do that light two candles at the beginning of Shabbat. think there's something about Pesach, about cleaning, about that aspect of renewal that's presented in the possibility for a little bit of spring cleaning in our homes. There's something there about... the possibility of recognizing that they have the word in Hebrew, 'zorem', like the possibility of flowing from one passion or one force, one pole to another. In terms of how I understand youe story and the text from Shabbat that you present, like what you're really saying is we need to understand the poles and permit for both to exist. We can have passion in material world, in the text that we study, in the work that we do, the obsessions and to passion that we have, but then also permitting some kind of flow back into the human world, back into the vulnerability of world outside is also really important. certainly, Bialik sounds like he may have intended that, maybe the Mishnah itself intended that. Yeah, we're gonna move to wrap up in a couple of minutes. Just tell us two words about why then you teach and train in law and tell us maybe two words about the life that you've built in Israel and share us like what's the final thought on this text. Yair Eldan: Well, you know. thought that is actually filling my mind now is about transitions. ⁓ have to make an episode on it, Transitions ⁓ religion, because as divorced guy, and I have kids from my first marriage, and transitions suddenly became hard. Every ⁓ divorced father or mother knows the kids are coming and then they're going and then they're coming. Oliver Spike Joseph: Okay, great. Yeah. Yair Eldan: and suddenly you are a bachelor and suddenly you are a father, are hard, we talk about it. ⁓ And ⁓ now I I I remarried ⁓ and ⁓ have, I think in very, and that's my concluding remark in a way. Surprisingly enough, a person like me who thought I wouldn't have any kids when I was 18, I that I go into any relationship. Now I have three kids from my first marriage and another three kids from my second marriage and I'm a father of six and fatherhood in a way... is something that defines me. didn't talk about it until now, but it's something very, very big in my life. I good being a father. And there is about it that is good for me, adequate. something, a big of identity is fatherhood. So ⁓ I don't know ⁓ it's connected to Jewish identity, but there is something. think about fatherhood and family. I mean there is something it. Oliver Spike Joseph: No, think we're gonna have an episode on this as well, but I think ⁓ on one small level, the aspect of father, the aspect of parenthood is the preparedness to take other people on the journey. Similar to kind of the attempt to the podcast is, you I have something to say and you're gonna listen. that's... Yair Eldan: I think so. Yeah. Ahahaha! That's a very... that's not my fatherhood! Oliver Spike Joseph: That's a... but there's something about the possibility that you're willing to confer your wisdom and your understanding of the world onto another person. That's got to be a starting place. ⁓ Yair Eldan: True, but one of the feedbacks I'm going to read in a second is my son's Yishai. Our relationship is not relationship of me conveying my ideas to him. It's a conversation. And is a very intelligent person I learn from every day. So ⁓ it's It's authoritative ⁓ as we grew with our parents. It's balanced in a Hopefully... I mean... He could learn something from me, but he's a different person than me. I accept that. Oliver Spike Joseph: Okay, so we're gonna finish up segment. I that we, you know, dip our toe in the water in each of these episodes and there's tons more to think of and we're really willing to hear from our listeners, like where you'd like us to go next. We'll definitely do a episode on That sounds like a great episode. We'll definitely do something coming up on parenting. specifically because of both with both dads I think exposed there was just the different life stages that you hear and I are at because my kids are still tiny so I have some kind of Expectation or vision that they might listen to me. Whereas Yair has older kids who have stopped listening to him a long time ago And we're gonna move to our feedbackim feedbackim is a new segment that we introduced last week which is just a little bit of feedback from Yair Eldan: That's it. Oliver Spike Joseph: the podcast so far, what people are saying on the street about really Jewish. ⁓ really excited to launch this podcast. We're now in our fourth week, I think, and our is growing across the I've got one feedback from Rabbi Kerry, who's in Los Angeles, a colleague that I graduated with from rabbinical She says, Rabbi Kerry, says, really Jewish draws from thousands of years of Jewish history, memory and meaning making, how very Jewish to have this conversation. Also have ⁓ Maya from Dublin who says she really enjoyed the pilot and really how real and down to earth we are. I guess that's a call to carry on kind of some of the emotional honesty that we've tried to present up until now. Tell us what Ishai said, Yair Yair Eldan: Ishai wrote me, I've just finished listening to episode two of the podcast and it was interesting learn and hear about the different aspects of reconciliation with the original text. We talked about the Ir HaNidachat (S1:E2) One thing though, he wrote to me, I would keep a flowing conversation going even if it means not getting into all the topic planned in the episode. young generation. ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: So it's lovely to hear about different people listening to the podcast. Let us know if you have feedback. I guess there's also the possibility to shout out both to be in contact with us. And if you have ideas about how to move our podcast forward and want to help in its production, tell us. We'd love support and help on this project. I want to say thank you this week to Yair for your honesty. We're going to also shout out to Oi Va Voi. who provided a new musical addition to this podcast, both the intro and the outro. If you wanna listen to their new single, Back to My Roots, available on all the streaming platforms. And we're even try here and announce gigs coming up with Oi Va Voi. Next week, I even tell you a story about ⁓ meeting them the first time. Thanks for being with us. Review this podcast wherever you listen to Yair podcasts. Send it to a friend. share our videos on Instagram, TikTok or Facebook. We are building this project from the wheels up happy to hear from you about how to progress really Jewish. You also donate on our platform with Patreon if you want to financially support this podcast our work. Thank you, Yair, recording with me today ⁓ and wishing everybody Yair Eldan: Thank you.