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Lesbians vs trans activists: A federal court showdown · The Front

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
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  Speaker 1: It's Monday, August four, twenty twenty five. Hamas says it
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  Speaker 1: won't surrender until an independent Palestinian state is established, and
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  Speaker 1: its published footage of an emaciated Israeli hostage who says
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  Speaker 1: he's digging his own grave. That's as Julian Assange and
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: former New Southwaless Premier Bob Carr led a pro gaz
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  Speaker 1: of protest march across the Sydney Harbor Bridge after police
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  Speaker 1: failed to stop it in court. The Australian subscribers get
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  Speaker 1: detailed news and analysis of this complex issue from our
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: correspondence around the world at the Australian dot com dot au.
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  Speaker 1: A federal court showdown today, pit's veteran queer community groups
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  Speaker 1: against trans rights activists laying bare. A bit of fight
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  Speaker 1: beneath the rainbow flag today why some lesbian groups believe
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  Speaker 1: their identity is being destroyed by laws that say everyone
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  Speaker 1: must be included. Before we begin, there's a bit of
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  Speaker 1: swearing in this episode and also frank discussion about sexuality.
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  Speaker 1: Sydney's Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras is a glorious, glitary
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  Speaker 1: celebration of community and of difference. In a few minutes
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  Speaker 1: off this year's parade came the Brisbane Gay Gardeners.
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  Speaker 2: People with signs declaring transgender.
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  Speaker 1: Defender, and the Association of Gay and Lesbian Doctors and Dentists,
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  Speaker 1: all dancing to dual leapers physical.
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  Speaker 3: I like the gays, I like the lgbt que community.
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  Speaker 1: One of Australia's most globally famous exports, can median Jim
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  Speaker 1: Jeffries sums up the difference like this.
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  Speaker 2: I like the L, the B, the G, the T,
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  Speaker 2: the Q.
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  Speaker 3: I support them all equally as individual groups. I do
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  Speaker 3: not support them as a collective group because they have
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  Speaker 3: fucking nothing in common.
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  Speaker 2: Under that rainbow flag.
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  Speaker 1: There's a world of different opinions and beliefs, and one
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  Speaker 1: of those differences comes bursting forward today when lesbians and
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  Speaker 1: transactivists face off before.
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  Speaker 2: The full bench of the Federal Court.
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  Speaker 1: The case is colloquially known as Tickle versus Giggle, but
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  Speaker 1: it's deadly serious. A trans woman, Roxan Tickle, took legal
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  Speaker 1: action after being rejected for joining a women's only app,
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  Speaker 1: Giggle for Girls. According to court documents, Tickle was male
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  Speaker 1: at birth, but had gender reassignments surgery and now has
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  Speaker 1: an updated Queensland birth certificate that says she is female.
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  Speaker 4: The small group of people have taken it upon themselves
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  Speaker 4: to declare that I am not who I know I am,
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  Speaker 4: and they have said about making my life miserable.
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  Speaker 1: Giggle's founder, Sal Grover, says she created the app for
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  Speaker 1: women to discuss everything from work to parenting, but quickly
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  Speaker 1: found herself overwhelmed by people she says were biological men
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  Speaker 1: wishing to join. The federal court agreed with Tickle, ruling
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  Speaker 1: she'd been the victim of indirect discrimination because Grover and
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  Speaker 1: Giggle rejected her because she didn't look like a cisgender woman.
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  Speaker 1: The court ordered Grover and Giggle to pay her ten
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  Speaker 1: thousand dollars plus costs. Grover appealed, taking the case to
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  Speaker 1: the full federal court. I don't acknowledge that this male person,
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  Speaker 1: adult human male is a woman. And now powerful forces
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  Speaker 1: have lined up on both sides. On the side of
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  Speaker 1: Roxannetickle are the Federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner An A. Cody,
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  Speaker 1: and protrans rights group Equality Australia, whose patron is the
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  Speaker 1: Governor General Sam Mostyn. On the other side arguing for
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  Speaker 1: the right of women to have their own spaces are
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  Speaker 1: two long established lobby groups, the Lesbian Action Group and
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  Speaker 1: the LGB Alliance Australia. In twenty thirteen, a bill introduced
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  Speaker 1: by the Gillard government amended the Sex Discrimination Act nineteen
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  Speaker 1: eighty four to ban discrimination against anyone on the basis
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  Speaker 1: of sexual orientation, intersex status or gender identity. Here's how
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  Speaker 1: it defined gender identity.
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  Speaker 5: Gender identity means the gender related identity, appearance or mannerisms,
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  Speaker 5: or other gender related characteristics of a person, whether by
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  Speaker 5: way of medical intervention or not, with or without regard
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  Speaker 5: to the person's designated sex at birth.
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  Speaker 1: By taking her appeal, Salgrover found her Giggle for Girls
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  Speaker 1: is challenging this amendment, arguing it's unconstitutional. The case comes
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  Speaker 1: after a ruling by the United Kingdom Supreme Court in April,
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  Speaker 1: which found the word woman meant only someone who was
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  Speaker 1: born biologically female. Here's the Lesbian Action Group's Nicole Mobray.
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  Speaker 4: We had a thriving community prior to about two thousand
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  Speaker 4: where lesbians could come together in single sex spaces and
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  Speaker 4: it would be just lesbians because lesbians are female. Now
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  Speaker 4: we've been had this forced upon us that we must
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  Speaker 4: accept males in our spaces, no matter how they identify.
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  Speaker 4: And so what was once a thriving community. We had balls, dances, clubs, pubs,
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  Speaker 4: sporting teams. It's all gone and it's quite frankly decimated
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  Speaker 4: our community. We can't be found now because we're underground.
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  Speaker 1: I'm joined by Rosemary Neil, senior writer with The Australian.
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  Speaker 1: Rosemary tell me zooming out the big picture here. What
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  Speaker 1: is the difference of opinion about whether one biological sex
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  Speaker 1: or another has a right to single sex spaces.
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  Speaker 6: Well, the Sex Discrimination Act was changed in two thousand
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  Speaker 6: and thirteen and it outlaws any kind of discrimination against
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  Speaker 6: transgender people. So that means that trans women who identify
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  Speaker 6: as lesbian must be allowed into lesbian spaces.
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  Speaker 2: Let's just break that down.
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  Speaker 1: So, by trans women, you mean people who were born
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  Speaker 1: in a male body but who now wish to identify
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  Speaker 1: as women, who now believe that they are women and
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  Speaker 1: want to be acknowledged as such.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 6: I talked to one academic who cites a study that
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  Speaker 6: found that about forty three percent of the trans women
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  Speaker 6: surveyed identified as either lesbian or bisexual, and the law
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  Speaker 6: says as well that they are entitled therefore to be
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  Speaker 6: in lesbian only spaces, and that can include dating apps,
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  Speaker 6: speed dating nights, things like that. There are lesbian groups,
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  Speaker 6: The Lesbian Action Group is one who are not happy
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  Speaker 6: about that situation. They say that under that broad queer
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  Speaker 6: umbrella that people of many identities now attend lesbian events,
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  Speaker 6: So they would like to see the law changed to
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  Speaker 6: restore the right of lesbians to hold single sex events
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  Speaker 6: for lesbians who were born female.
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  Speaker 4: We're not wanting heterosexual males in our space. We're not
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  Speaker 4: wanting gay men in our space. It doesn't mean we
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  Speaker 4: hate them. It's exactly the same with trans people. We
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  Speaker 4: don't hate trans people. We just want our boundaries to
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  Speaker 4: be respected and to be able to meet as women
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  Speaker 4: as lesbians.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So this is a slight evolution of an idea that
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  Speaker 1: I think many of us are familiar with, And this
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  Speaker 1: is the argument put forward by people like JK.
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  Speaker 2: Rowling, the author that.
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  Speaker 1: Biological sex is real, that it's binary, that you are
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  Speaker 1: either male or female in every cell of your body,
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  Speaker 1: and that doesn't change.
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  Speaker 2: The Lesbian Action.
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  Speaker 1: Group told you about something called the new lesbophobia.
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  Speaker 2: What do they mean by that.
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  Speaker 6: They feel that their culture and their meeting spaces have
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  Speaker 6: been decimated over the last twenty thirty years, and that
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  Speaker 6: part of that is related to transgender ideology, and part
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  Speaker 6: of that is related to our anti discrimination laws which
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  Speaker 6: say that anyone who identifies as female and as a
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  Speaker 6: lesbian must be admitted into lesbian events, even if they
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  Speaker 6: have a male body. Lesbian Action Group says it is
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  Speaker 6: concerned that it is received anecdotal evidence that younger lesbians
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  Speaker 6: are being sexually harassed by men and by trans women
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  Speaker 6: at some events that are, you know, ostensibly for queer women.
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  Speaker 2: Tell me about the case of Anna.
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  Speaker 6: So I spoke to several young lesbians for this story,
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  Speaker 6: and Anna told me about how, when she was nineteen,
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  Speaker 6: she had recently come out as a lesbian, she struck
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  Speaker 6: up an online friendship with a trans woman on an
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  Speaker 6: anonymous chat site. Anna told me that the trans woman
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  Speaker 6: pressured her to perform oral sex and that this trans
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  Speaker 6: woman had a male body had a penis. Anna refused.
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  Speaker 6: When she later told that story, she shared it to
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  Speaker 6: her close female Universe City appeers. Rather than empathize with her,
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  Speaker 6: some of them turned on her, told her she was
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  Speaker 6: a terf and transphobic. She says she was also told
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  Speaker 6: that lesbians actually can like the opposite sex. Anna was
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  Speaker 6: very upset by this because she still had some PTSD,
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  Speaker 6: having grown up in a home with domestic violence, and
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  Speaker 6: unfortunately she was molested at the age of thirteen by
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  Speaker 6: a man while she was walking home from school.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, so this is not just a philosophical argument. It's
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  Speaker 1: also about physical safety for some of the people who
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  Speaker 1: you spoke to.
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  Speaker 6: Yes, well, that is what the Lesbian Action Group is
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  Speaker 6: partly arguing as it goes to court in this Tickle appeal,
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  Speaker 6: which starts on Monday. In their court submission, they do
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  Speaker 6: state at one point, this is a quote, it is
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  Speaker 6: now commonplace for lesbians to be pressured into having sex
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  Speaker 6: with trans women and to face risk of social isolation
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  Speaker 6: if they do not agree with that very concept. I
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  Speaker 6: should stress here that the young lesbians I spoke to
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  Speaker 6: weren't all saying that that sort of pressure was coming
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  Speaker 6: from transgender people themselves. Often it was coming from activists.
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  Speaker 2: Often it was.
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  Speaker 6: Coming from other women who just consider themselves allies with
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  Speaker 6: transgender people. So I think it's important to point that out.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one thing that everybody under the rainbow
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  Speaker 1: flag or under the LGBTQIA plus acronym. Would share is
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  Speaker 1: experience of being discriminated against and empathy with other people
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  Speaker 1: who feel that they're discriminated against, And so I can
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  Speaker 1: understand why they might feel that this is really difficult
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  Speaker 1: territory to step into.
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  Speaker 6: Yes, it is difficult territory to step into, and the
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  Speaker 6: transgender community is a vulnerable community, and the changing of
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  Speaker 6: the Sex Discrimination Act in twenty thirteen has you know,
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  Speaker 6: afforded them important protections. But what we do have here
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  Speaker 6: is a clash of rights between lesbians who are saying
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  Speaker 6: they want one type of space and exclusive space for
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  Speaker 6: lesbians who were born female and transgender people who want
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  Speaker 6: the world to be more inclusive who have been terribly
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  Speaker 6: discriminated against in the past. But the activists such as
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  Speaker 6: the Lesbian Action Group, who do believe in sex based differences,
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  Speaker 6: have fallen foul of in a way the queer establishment
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  Speaker 6: and their demands have been called discriminatory and transphobic, which
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  Speaker 6: is a criticism that they reject. They say they simply
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  Speaker 6: want their own safe spaces and that we're appropriate they
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  Speaker 6: could come together in mixed sex spaces, But you know,
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  Speaker 6: they're saying that when a queer women's event is organized
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  Speaker 6: these days, that can mean that you have bisexual women there,
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  Speaker 6: trans men, trans women, and some people who they feel
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  Speaker 6: may actually be heterosexual men turning up. Nicole Mowbray, who's
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  Speaker 6: the spokeswoman for the Lesbian Action Group, does actually feel
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  Speaker 6: that in a sense, the law is promoting a kind
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  Speaker 6: of rape culture if a group of women are saying
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  Speaker 6: we want to meet in this exclusively female way and
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  Speaker 6: the law is saying no, we won't let you. Other
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  Speaker 6: organizations involved in the Rainbow Coalition would certainly reject that argument.
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  Speaker 1: Coming up the idea is transphobic to have a preference
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  Speaker 1: for a certain kind of body? Not surprisingly, this is
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  Speaker 1: very hot on social media. In twenty nineteen, there was
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  Speaker 1: a tweet by a Canadian competitive cyclist and transgender activist
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  Speaker 1: called Veronica Ivy who said genital preferences are transphobic. So
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  Speaker 1: that's going further than the discussion about spaces. That's saying that,
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  Speaker 1: no matter how you identify, it is transphobic to have
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  Speaker 1: a preference either for penises or vaginas, isn't it?
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  Speaker 6: Yes, it is saying that, and the younger lesbians who
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  Speaker 6: I interviewed were saying they do come across that thinking
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  Speaker 6: in queer circles and in university circles, and they said
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  Speaker 6: in their own queer circles as well, and because that
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  Speaker 6: is an idea that distresses them, that you know, a
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  Speaker 6: lesbian should be prepared to date have sex with someone
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  Speaker 6: with a penis who also identifies as lesbian, has really
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  Speaker 6: seen them ostracized within the gay community.
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  Speaker 1: M Rosemary Neil is a senior journalist with The Australian.
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  Speaker 1: You can read her thoughtful, incisive journalism anytime at The
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  Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot au