Latest / Beheaded / "The Time Will Come - I, Anne Boleyn" (Part 2)

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"The Time Will Come - I, Anne Boleyn" (Part 2) · Beheaded

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to season two, episode 13, part two.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Megan Moore and I'm Elizabeth Black.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: We have a guest, a guest star, a guest star today.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, thank you for having me.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited, I really am.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Stephanie.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I work at Historic Royal Palaces.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: We look after the Tower of London and Hampton Court Palace, so it's perfect for this episode, basically.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, my biggest interest in history is obviously the Tudors because I work in a Tudor building.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: But also the Romans, but we keep that for another day.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, anything British history at the moment is my passion.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yay!
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we're so excited to have Stephanie.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Beyond excited.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we uh how long have we known Stephanie now?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: For season one?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: We were chatting for about a year, I would say.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: And Stephanie reached out just like via Instagram, and I was the moment that you revealed that you worked for Hampton Court Palace and the historic palaces of London, I was enthralled and I just wanted to be your best friend.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: I was trying not to be stalkerish.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing those things like showing Elizabeth my messages before.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, is this clingy?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is this too much?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Am I overlooking?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Am I saying too much here?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is this okay?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I had to approve all of her messages.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, it's fine, it's okay.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted it to go well.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: So we're excited to have you.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we are doing part two of Anne Boleyn.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: So Stephanie is our expert today.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: We keep saying we want to do Anne right, we want to do her good.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And not that Elizabeth and I don't trust each other, but we need an expert.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, we don't trust each other.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so welcome, Stephanie.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening and thanks for joining.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I do want to find out a little bit more maybe about your historical interests.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: I know that you said you, you know, Rome might be another story, but how did you get started with all of this?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, basically, um obviously I don't really have to have that much knowledge for the work, but I do because people ask questions.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I work.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So um I always liked history, it's really basic, but I I do and I like learning.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the best combination.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So when I started at Hampton Court Palace, because I live nearby as well.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I can walk there, it's like a half an hour walk there.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I get really interested because you walk through these halls, if it's a great hall or even the courtyards, you just step back in time because it's an old building.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you're stepping into a Tudor Court, and you know N walked there, Worsley walked there.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know all these people from history that that changed England's history because that because of that there's the Church of England, and you know they walked these halls, these and there was a banquet in the Great Hall, and things like that, and and you're just in awe, you just stare at it for a while, and and you're so enthralled, as you said, because it's just so much history that you want to take in it, then you want to learn everything, right?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do you find that a lot of the tourists know a lot of the history, so they're just asking you for details, or is it like silly Americans who are like, I'm sorry, what's this?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Did a king live here?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Did Caesar live here?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Everything.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, no, it's um but we're always happy if someone wants to know things because that shows us they're interested, so then we can build a connection, help them with their visit and things like that.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the more questions about history, the better, because we're all all of the team is excited about that because that's a favorite question to answer.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I feel like if I show up, when I show up, I'm gonna be so obnoxious because I'm gonna have 500 questions.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna like follow the tour guide, like I'm the little tour guide's pet of just every little thing.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: And what about this?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: What about that?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And what happened here?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: What's that scratch on the wall?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: What did that happen?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And she'll correct all of the tourists who have different things to say.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna be like, okay, so this is the south side where Anne was.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, no, Anne was on the north side.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Even if I wasn't true, I'm not that bad.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just a quick side note when we were at Disney World, because we talked about uh how Megan's very scared of roller coasters.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I hate roller coasters.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So she researched all the drop heights for everything.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So she knew like Pirates of the Caribbean had a 14-foot drop, etc.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: So she would go up to the workers and she's like, okay, how big is this drop?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, um, I think it's like 40 feet, and she's like, Well, it's 30 feet, but thanks.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I needed to know how much they knew.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm embarrassed, okay?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm embarrassed for myself.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: I know I have major anxiety over roller coasters, and Elizabeth got me on a couple, and but I had to interrogate and interview like that poor kid who has like a summer job knows.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: I just had to feel better and know that like what I was finding on the internet was correct, and I wasn't gonna get on, and before I know it, there's some like 100-foot drop I wasn't prepared for.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, long story short, I think when we do go to London, she's gonna be she's gonna be that way, but in a different sense of like uh, well, I wouldn't say that was true.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: I do have a I have a question for you, Stephanie.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: So in Hampton Court Palace, we we didn't really we haven't talked about this part yet in part one, but Henry did like a quick turnover trying to get rid of a lot of Ann's presence.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I heard that the they were so quick that they left a little initial of an A B.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen it?
• 5:37
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Or it's it's H A or what is it?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, the I think most of the literature says it's only one A left in the corner, A H because Ann and Henry.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it's actually two, it's in the Great Hall.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if you walk in um through the main entrance and you don't face the we have little throne stairs, so that's the sake of you face the thrones, and then you turn around the way you came in, it's on the left hand and right hand side.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you're in the corner in the top corner, so you can see that they forgot to chisel it out.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if someone did that intentionally.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I was the person paid to chisel it out, I'd be like, oops, I missed it.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, he he didn't know because otherwise it would have happened later on because it wouldn't be there if he record, like at least I think so.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: The only the other thing that also reminds people of Anne, but that's a Victorian edition, is the windows in the Great Hall.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you have uh the Falcon there as well.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, because it's all the things in there.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well we talked about how her her symbol on on Inhaven Book.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Can't get rid of her face.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think she knew what she was doing.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um in the first uh, and we'll recap the entire first episode before we get into Anne more, but uh, we talked a lot about how she spent all of her money on kind of gowns, jewelry, a lot of furniture, and a lot of renovations.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I think in a way, she all she didn't obviously know her fate, but I I think as a queen, you're like, I want to make sure that I have an imprint here, you know, and it's gonna be hard to get rid of me.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's my impression.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm gonna do that.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what's funny is he's gonna find little notes in her mouth.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um well, and also though, they could have just left the AH for Anna Cleves, and it's fine.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe Henry didn't notice.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: By the time Jane's gone, he's like, oh, that's appropriate.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Or back to Anne.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's funny.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um who would you say is your favorite historical tutor figure?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, I do I do like Anne, I have to I I admit I do like Anne.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um very appropriate.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm my favorite wife, because some Yeah, I mean Catherine Howard is also nice, but she's also annoying a little teenager in a way.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I might not, but her story is kind of tragic in a way as well.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I do I think I can relate more to Anne, who I also like is um the other Jane, the nine-day Queen.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh Jane Grey.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that is a very tragic figure, uh, which is kind of yeah, gives me kind of a warm feeling thinking about her.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: What like what must her thought have been?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because who makes you queen for nine days and then you know just a pawn.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think those twos are my favorite famous Judas.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: We like the tragic ones.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, do you have a favorite Anne Boleyn book and or a favorite Jane Gray book?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say my favourite Anne book is definitely Eric Ives, The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it's I think it's one of the newest ones with the most recent um information.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's also very thick, so a lot of information.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't read much about Jane, I have to say.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I would need to look up a book, but I don't have one right now.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I read The Last Tudor last year, like right before the world shut down.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I think that was the last book I read, like kind of going into our work from home.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that was really good.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I've I've read only two Philippe Gregory books, but that one was really interesting because it goes into each of the gray daughters, you know, so highly recommend that one.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Philippe Gregory is just fun because it's like so romanticized, and obviously it's like historical fiction, so she's putting a lot of her own interpretation into it, but those are always fun to read.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then yeah, and just to reference um Eric Ives again, a lot of I think the information that we have, both us and Stephanie, kind of comes from his version of things.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, as we said in a lot of our other stories, there's different takes on history, different historians believe different things, but a lot of what we're gonna be talking about today um kind of stems from the Eric Ives version of Anne Boleyn.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: And not only that, even the witnesses who were actually there have different accounts.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll get into it more.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: But just for example, some of their speeches that they said can be two totally different versions of the speeches.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, maybe it's like where was one person standing versus the other, and they just chose to hear different words.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: The wind was going.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean it does, you know, we're 500 years later.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: It puts up a lot for interpretation, but that's the fun of it, and that's why we keep pulling apart the pieces and finding out more and learning more.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And exactly.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so, um, Elizabeth, do you want to recap a little bit on part one and where we ended off?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So um, in part one, we talked about obviously Anne's early life, um, born what we think and what we said in the first one about 1501, um, was educated as a young girl in the Netherlands, and then goes off to French court for about nine years.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And French court is really where she got a big part of her education, you know.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, she got culture and art and fashion.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: She got most of the fundamental pieces of her education in the Netherlands, but France is really where she blossomed into a young lady.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so 1522, she finally comes to English court.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Her sister's already there.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, at this point, her sister is the mistress to King Henry VIII.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, with all of her French education and then seeing uh how her sister was kind of entertaining the king, she said, Yeah, I'm not gonna be my sister.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Once Henry saw her, saw Anne and it showed interest in her, her first thing was like, sorry, you know, this isn't gonna happen.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna be your mistress, we're not gonna sleep together.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but she was still very flirtatious, still uh spoke her mind on a lot of subjects, and she really intrigued the king.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So King Henry, again, spent seven years courting Anne.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Such a long time.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it was said that we didn't talk about this in the first episode, but it was said that after a year he proposed to her.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, no, no, like, you know, we we can, but you have to obviously figure out things with Catherine Varagon, get your marriage annulled, and then we'll move forward.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: So after seven years of courting, uh, he finally gets his marriage annulled to Catherine.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: They are happy, they are thriving as a couple, until she gives birth to her first child, who's Elizabeth I, which they were like, okay, a girl, we were expecting a boy, hoping for a boy, but it's fine, like we're young, we can still have many babies, until she suffered miscarriage after miscarriage.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then the king starts to lose his faith in Anne, you know, because at this day and age they don't know who's responsible for the sex of the baby, blah blah blah.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: But they just automatically blame the woman and they're like, What?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I courted you for seven years, you gave me one daughter, you've just had multiple stillborn slash miscarriages.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is not okay.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the the first cracks in their marriage start to show.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that kind of brings us up to the point of Catherine of Aragon, his first wife, dies, and they're celebrating her death, but their marriage is still not okay because right around that time Anne suffers her kind of final miscarriage, and that's when things really start to break and the downfall begins, which is what we're talking about today.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, downfall.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so we ended the last episode talking about Henry's jousting accident.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we touched about this on upon this a little bit, but Stephanie, I I want to hear your perspective.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard different versions.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think a brain injury resulted in Henry's personality change?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I wrote down in my notes yes and no.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't think it's that easy in a way, like easy in quotation marks, maybe.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because we know his behavior changes.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: We have historical sources, his behavior is changing, like he is a different person than um how he was before.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: But um this wasn't a drastic from he woke up from his injury kind of and a completely different person kind of change.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was like a gradual change into something else.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think various factors are responsible for this.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So he had the jousting accident, so obviously he could have a brain injury, not saying he doesn't, but you know, let's say he had some.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then his constant pain in the leg.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you're constantly constantly in pain, you get grumpy.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: You are grumpy.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point, that's true.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because they didn't have paracetamol iboprofen, like you didn't have anything that actually helped you ease that pain because the wound never closed.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Terrible.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you have that in in your head.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then I read an article about from Whitley and Cramer from 2007, who say that he might have been positive for Cal blood group, so like a disease that causes if the um negative like miscarriages.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that might be the reason, like one reason.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: The other is MacLoyd syndrome or Lyot syndrome, which starts developing between people between the age of 30 and 40, which is the perfect age he was in.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like kind of a mental illness, which shows in um motor neuropathy and muscular myopathy, and all these kind of like all the things he showed, right?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Would have obviously we don't know, but that's one one theory that's out there.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's all the things that come together.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Another one is he's getting older, Anna's getting older.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: He knows the older you get, the and more difficult it is to get a child.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: He, you know, you've seen that with Catherine, so it's not brand new information for him.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I think also the frustration of not getting what he wants gets him there.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then yeah, he's his personality is changing because, as I said, he's in constant pain.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: He can't do the things he likes anymore.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: You liked hunting, he liked riding, he liked jousting, you can't do this anymore.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: So all you can do is eat.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: He's hangry, he's just hangry a thousand calories a day.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: He belongs on my 600-pound life for sure.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: 600-pound life.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think um I think this all comes together.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously after Ann's death, I think that didn't help because even though he decided that she needs to die, it's also I think part of him that might have not wanted her to.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like all these kind of psychological things that we can't really trace anymore.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: But if you look at it from a modern perspective and how would a normal, like a modern person react, I think that gradual change is you know, all of the things that come together.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's not just one point where you can say like this is the cause of it.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, like there's so many different moving parts, but you're so right.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: When you put all of those layers together, do we blame a guy?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he was still an asshole.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Let's not let's not give him too much credit.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: But that those are some really good points.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it it is in the perfect way out, too.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a person who is already thinking, I might divorce this lady, I'd be like, you know, the head injury makes me do crazy things.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: He probably had a lot of mental illness just naturally, also.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I think to Stephanie's point, I I think the fact that he was again so athletic and loved all of these physical activities, hunting, jousting, all of these signs of masculinity, it's like when you rob him of his masculinity, like what else does he have?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the only thing he can really do is like, well, I'm just gonna get a new wife and a k and a you know a son.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that becomes his obsession, more so than even it was in the past, because now he has nothing else to prove how good of a king he is and how masculine he is.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: So at this time, Anne is getting nervous.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: She knows that Jane Seymour's getting into the picture.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: And Henry has eyes for Jane.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: And Anne is still kind of, we talked about this last time, she's kind of putting on this facade of everything's great and let's just keep partying.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: And she has this group of company, she has these men around her, and that is not a safe place to be when you're a queen, let alone Henry VIII's queen.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: To have all these different men coming in and out of your room and entertaining, and of course, rumors are gonna start flying.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and she's starting to lose her temper a bit more.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, you know, because again, she she tried she's also hangry.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's hangry in this court.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, she she tries again to play it off like, oh, I'm still you lively and fun, and I throw parties and blah blah.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, because Jane Seymour enters the picture, and we meant we were talking about this a bit before we started recording, but Jane Seymour had a little locket that Henry gave her with Henry's portrait in it.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And Jane would sit there in front of Anne and open her locket and look at her.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: As her fiddle, her eye literally locket on me.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I told them I was.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: She's so dramatic.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Now that I have a third person here to witness how dramatic you are when you start.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bullying thing.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Just kidding.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, but uh, so she has this locket, you know, and Anne got so angry to the point where she literally tore the locket off of her neck, off of Jane Seymour's neck, and her fingers bled, you know.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: So she's now starting to have these big outbursts, and she's always been a little, you know, bad-tempered and sharp-tongued and all of that, but now you're seeing kind of acts of violence and rage really sporadically come out because she's getting so frustrated.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Very specifically, there was a quote that Anne was overheard saying to Henry Norris.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Stephanie, you're gonna say this quote way better.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you have it in front of you, so I'm gonna try to say it and then maybe you can say it in your.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have Megan say it and then Stephanie.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: We have we've got an American and a and a very formal British woman.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: So a little southern twang in there, Megan is getting in it.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: You look for dead men's shoes.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: For if odds came to the king but good, you would look to have me.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Sultry.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, what she's saying here is she's kind of flirting with Henry, and she's saying, if the king were to die, you'd want me.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you would want to marry me.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Which is a big no-no because you are not allowed to talk about the king's death.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: You can't say that.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's trayson, right?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it is.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's I think obviously joking about a death is not a good thing to do, but at the same time, it's more like she was again frustrated and just joking because she was, as you said before, it was like trying to be a party host, like girls' posters, having this meeting people in in her rooms or chambers, and I think it was just like this fake cordial that they try to do, and it just went wrong.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: It backfired.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I have a big mouth, I say a lot of bad things at the wrong time.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: That was a that was a bad moment for Anne, I feel like, because that really jeopardized her.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in her devious way, she was also trying to show Henry, like, look, I'm still wanted and I'm still flirtatious, and men in court still still find me amazing.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, in a way, it's like she's she's I think partially doing it too to still have Henry's affection and and favor because she's like, hey, like, remember, I'm this beautiful, like wonderful girl that you loved for years and years, and people still think so.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: So get your shit together and give me attention.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, at what point then does Henry is this kind of the time when Henry's like, okay, Cromwell, my crony?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: My crony Cromwell.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's get her down.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: And they're really like out to get Anna at this point and putting together reasonings for why she needs to be arrested.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because Henry's kind of running out of reasons of why he can legally divorce someone.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, the best way is like, well, what if I just get her arrested?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, she's obviously guilty of things, so let's put together a case against her.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: So Cromwell, um, we we haven't talked that much about Thomas Cromwell.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: He's gonna have to be his own episode one day, not to like really reveal his end.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, how does he die?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: Clickhanger.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but Cromwell is very much against Anvelyn, and Henry is using him as as his resource to put together this information.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um so there's several people in in Anne's faction that our people are pointing fingers at, and one of them is Mark Smeaton.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: He's the musician, he's young, and he's of low class, pretty much, right?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like he would have been, yeah, he's not a nobleman by any means.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: He's there to entertain.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: And he gets he's the first one who's arrested.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: And they start interrogating him and find out have you been rendezvousing with the queen?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's all these rumors flying around that you're coming in and out of her room at late hours of the night.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um And Cromwell interrogates him.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I wrote down that something and that's crucial, I think, for the whole of the arrests and events, uh something must have happened on the 27th of April, fifteen thirty-six.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: So basically two days before, Henry still signed a document calling in his beloved wife and queen.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: So until that point, some even though there might have been trouble in paradise, something was still going well.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly you have this thing happening because and on Sunday, the 30th of April, uh April, um, he was supposed to travel to France with them, and that was postponed.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you know that something major must have happened if the king postponed his his travels.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think and I I read this in in Ives that Mark Smeat and his confession, whether it be fake or not or true or not true, that was the the starting point of the whole that got the whole thing going because he was overheard in the Queen's Chambers as well.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: He was seen coming in and out.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: So someone said something, the wrong person at the wrong time, and then um I wrote down that he was Smeaton was arrested at Cromwell's estate because he already took him over to interview him, like to interrogate him, and then make a decision to arrest him because he had his confession in a way.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because um also you have to remember Smeaton was quite young, he was about 1920.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I didn't realize that.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So he was like, you know, if he's still a pretty tall.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: He's barely legal, he was out for a cougar.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's a boy, let's be honest.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: So like he's a 19-year-old, 20-year-old boy and well, yeah, men, but so I think the influence of uh influential men or basically a teenager or a tween is quite high because he has power, and I think whether he was tortured or not, that's probably a different discussion.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: But he got the confession that he had sexual relations with the queen, and that was Crumble's moment of glory to run to the king and say, like, okay, I have something.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: We've got something, and like let's roll with this, and then he was just he was on a roll after that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so I so Smeaton kind of like broke the camel's back.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: He did.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: And who knows, maybe they broke his back in the middle of it trying to figure this out.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as Stephanie mentioned, he may have been tortured, you know.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're gonna torture anyone, you're gonna torture torture the lower.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: It was so intentional.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go for the weakest link here, let's break him.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: There are I like I've seen different versions of it where yes, they torture him.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: Some they like leave it super mysterious, and you just hear him like crying behind a door, and others are like, no, torture.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, so this is where I get confused.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Torture is legal for someone of his status.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like they couldn't do that to George Boleyn, say they couldn't torture him.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha, gotcha.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: So now we're on May Day, which is like a happy day.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's the first of May, it's 1536.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: These are like, I'm picturing all these little girls like running around with their ribbons and flowers.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: I strangely had the same image in my mind.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like the May pole, right?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: They do that at the Renfair.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: You get the Maypole and you run around.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and everyone seems to be having an okay time and being cheerful, and they're at Greenwich Palace, and then all of a sudden, boom, Henry gets news that Mark's Meeting confessed.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And he stops all activity.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he immediately goes uh to I was it to the tower or wait who sorry.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: He just runs off.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows where he went?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: He went off into the woods.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Do we know where anyone I'm making that up actually?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't know where he went, um, but he just says, okay, and then he again pauses everything and they move forward with Ann's arrest.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: He did bring Henry Norris with him.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: So Anne's having a great time at May.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, oh, my husband's leaving.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and Henry Norris is leaving with him.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk a little bit about Henry Norris.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Henry Norris was the groom of the stool, which is nasty business.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, it is what you think it is.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's a pretty shitty job, let's be honest.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: He's wiping the king's ass.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's just like put it out there.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, why do you need that as a king?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you're the king, you can do whatever you want.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: But this was actually a very prestigious role, right?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because you were like up in the king's most personal business.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: He needs to trust you.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: But he's had some very personal moments with the king, I'm sure.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like a very respected position.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you kind of want to be that person because you're like, you have his attention in the most private of ways.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's true, yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you're in his ear, right?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Those are very intimate moments with intimate conversation and very doing intimate things.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Doing intimate things together.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Pillow talk in a dirty way.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: We'll move on.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: So he takes Henry with him.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Henry the eighth takes Henry Norris with him on his excursion out, leaving May Day.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And he starts interrogating Henry, and no one really knows what that conversation actually was, right?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because it was pretty private.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like Henry Norris probably thought, like, okay, I'm the king's best man and I'm his buddy right now and he's taking me off.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: And instead, he like totally corners him of accusing him of sleeping with his queen.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right, because it's like they already have Smeaton at this point, and now they're trying to get Norris.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh do we have what Norris said to him?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Did he give him any information or did he just deny everything?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um denies everything.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so May 2nd, again, very next day, is when Anne is officially arrested.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: So she is taken to the tower, um, which we talked about this a bit.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how relevant it is, but you know, which way she came in, a lot of people thought it was through Trader's Gate.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then newer information, especially from Eric Ives, says, where was the other place she came in through?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: The Bible Tower.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, right.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so regardless, she she arrives at the tower and she gets set up basically in the same room that she was coronated in, which is very ironic.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like here she was, uh, not three years earlier, you know, being queen, thinking life's going well, and now she's there as a prisoner, essentially.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she's overseen by the Constable Kingston and his wife who were there.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then like within a matter of what, a week, all of a sudden they're in trial and sentencing.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Stephanie, what do you think her reaction was like when as she's pulling up in a boat to the tower?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, she is it's sad that she collapsed and then asked about her brother and then father, and basically, first time she asked about the charges against her.
• 28:44
  unknown: Oh.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's something I would ask really know.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think putting her in these chambers that she was in before, for before her coronation, is such a political and psychological move.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because you put her there to make her queen, you put her there to take it away from her.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's so such a psychological pressure on a person because she knows she's arrested, so she knows it's not there for comfort, right?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Even though she I think she is I think Kixon um recorded this somewhere that he she asks him, Do I have to go to a cell?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, he was like, No, um, you go here, and she's like, Oh, that's too good for me.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, that doesn't point towards innocence.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know in that room, you don't look innocent.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um she she is in the Queen's Chambers, and that is the building doesn't exist anymore in the tower.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: You still the foundations are still there.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's in the southeast of the White Tower.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's the one with the four, little the iconic building of the Tower of London, basically.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's now opposite, it's opposite the Fusilian Museums if you're in the Tower of London.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the building itself doesn't exist anymore.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: But that's basically where it was.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it would have been like done well, right?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like to her point of like, oh, I'm not in a cell.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like she had ladies in waiting still.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: She was still wearing her gown, she was still wearing jewels.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Hers.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're we've talked about this several times before, but she's not like in rags laying somewhere in shackles.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like she still has a desk and a bed, and I mean pretty comfortable.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, and she's also coming off of a miscarriage, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it wasn't so long ago that she she found out that this is her final miscarriage.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't know, obviously, at the time it was her final, but so physically she's probably still not even in wonderful shape to really be there.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, psychologically, as Stephanie said, and then physically, she's probably just not like, you know, in a condition to really stay in a cell.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: That would be terrible.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: Overall, there were five other men accused, along with Anne Boleyn.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: So it was Henry Norris and Mark Smean, who we just talked about.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: William Bariton, Sir Francis Weston, and George Boleyn.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Her brother.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Her brother.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: So this is where it gets kind of odd because sure, maybe she was flirty with some of these other, you know, men who were there, but that's when things got really strange, is when George Boleyn was accused of sleeping with his sister.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: So there's now not just accusations of adultery, but there's accusations of incest.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So all of a sudden it becomes very odd.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And to this day, there is still some controversy on whether or not incest took place.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Some people think, no way, like they were too pious, like why would she sleep with her brother?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's not a thing.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in certain, I think in the tutors of the Showtime Show, they show it as like, no, these are just completely crazy accusations.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas other shows, I think, maybe in Rain and The Other Boleyn Girl, they couldn't like maybe possible.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: They say, well, think about it.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she was so desperate to have a male heir.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Henry's no longer showing interest in her.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: He's off with his mistresses, she needs to get pregnant, and who does she trust, you know, more than George Boleyn, her brother?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: So while it might be gross, this might be her only option.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, not only that, her and George didn't necessarily grow up with each other because she went off to the French court and then George was doing his own thing.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: They really didn't come back together until they were what, like late teens, early 20s or so.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe they grew up as like little children together and then they didn't see each other for half their time.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Stephanie, what do you think?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like this whole debate is it possible?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Is it not?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Is it disgusting?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Is it I don't know, maybe she was just really desperate.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think it happened.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: I personally don't think.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: She was way too pious to go through with this.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um just first of all, she knew that it wouldn't only ruin her chat any chance with Henry if she ever wanted one.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: It would also condemn her after her death.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, because it's it's not, you know, it's it's not forgivable by God either.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So um so for me, when I read this or hear about this, for me, this is really interesting because you guys know that about my um PhD thesis about the memory sanctions of the Roman emperors.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And one way to discredit an emperor is to give them a weird sexual fantasy history, whatever, or even incest.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that is one way to make sure that person is not trusted anymore.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: So when I read this in connection with N, of course, that makes complete for me, that makes complete sense that it's fabricated.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously George had a connection with her because he was her brother, so he was going in and out of her chambers like the other men did as well.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: But and then someone, and you you mentioned or Alphine, you mentioned that it might have been his wife who might be jealous.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Could very well be that she started this in a way that she saw them being too close and she didn't like it.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and then this whole thing started being bigger than it is, because she was like, I don't like this, and then just run to someone and say, like, oh, I saw George Boleyn coming out of you know, and then they know how to spread N is everybody around in her circle knows that she needs the son because they know Henry.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I don't think it happened.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just personally don't think because it doesn't fit with what we know about her, right?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Being a pious woman, being yeah, also a family woman.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: She she wants to have this.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like she doesn't want to have a son with him.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I I personally don't think um it happened.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: You made such a good point, and we haven't really talked about this, but George Bullyn's wife.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Lady Roger.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Lady Rogford, who we talk about slash Jane Parker, who we talk about for a bit in our um Catherine Howard episode because she was executed with Catherine Howard later.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, go ahead on your point.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: I was just saying that's a really good point.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: So she pretty much went to Cromwell and is the one who ratted out her her own husband.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: She was cheeky.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: She was the one who said George Boleyn is also sleeping with Anne.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that I'm sure was like jaw to the floor.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now we've really got her.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: What the hell's going on with Jane?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: That you'd be such a little snipe, yeah, snatchy little bitch, like saying that about people.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right, you know, and and as again, maybe some modern renditions like show, they there's some speculation that maybe George was in fact gay.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe Lady Rogford knew these devious things about him and you know being a homosexual.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: So she, as punishment, was like, Well, I'm not gonna out you, but I am gonna tell everyone you slept with your sister.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: There are those theories that George was gay, right?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's also a lot of stories that George was very violent against Jan.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: Jan.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: Very violent.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: You can call her Jan.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: Violent against Jane, Jan, whatever.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: She's got like 16 different names at this point.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even know what to call.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so we've got these five men, and they go up to trial, and their trials don't work out that great.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: They are tried at Westminster Abbey, very prestigious.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you've been there before, right?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, have you?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it's beautiful, I'm sure.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: I want to go.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: Same.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: We've been there.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: I we we shared in our part one.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we did get to go to Hampton Court Palace at Epcot and Disney World.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same, it was basically the same.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: They have like a replica of the palace.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, this is where stuff works.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I also learned Megan can't have fish and chips, which makes me sad.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: I did not know this about and I are, you know, best friends here, if you guys haven't been able to tell.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Know everything about either.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: She had no idea I was allergic to cod until like she kept trying to offer him, like, I can't eat it.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: I can't eat it.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, so I'm gonna order us some fish and chips.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, you know I'm allergic to cod.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, when did that happen?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: An anaphylactin.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Anyways, tangents.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: We digress.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: What were we talking about?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we were talking about the trial.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, not much of a trial, really.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all of them were accused as guilty.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: And go ahead.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: I just have a really fun fact that I like.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: So when the men go into the court, they have the guardmen have their axes away from them, right?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then when they come out so that all the crowds can know who couldn't be a part of the court, how did the verdict come out?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: If the blades were faced towards them, it meant guilty, and if it was face away from them, it meant innocent.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: I did not know that.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, fun fact, right?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: So of course what I really found really not, well, it shocked me a bit was that um Thomas Boleyn, George's father, was in that court and also voted guilty.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't realize that.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: I did, I don't think I realized.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Thomas Boleyn said his own son was guilty.
• 37:29
  unknown: Yes.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because he's just trying to play a whole court game, like courtly game at this point where he's still trying to make sure the family's okay and gain favor with the king, and I'm like, you're to the point where you say your children are guilty and should be murdered?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, okay, but he's just saving his own ass.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what happened to him?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why wasn't he arrested for anything?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question, actually.
• 37:51
  unknown: Yeah.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he his name just doesn't pop up, I think.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: But that's basically all because he just wasn't mentioned, I think.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: But he doesn't like obviously he dies later on, not the most happiest and wealthiest of people, but yeah.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of in shame, I'm sure.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: One interesting thing too is how the mom is so not present.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like uh Elizabeth Howard, you know, Anne and George's mother.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: She's just not around.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I guess she's somewhere of sad about all of this, but it's strange that she's in everything we've read never really mentioned.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what is she doing?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: She's probably the smart one who ran for the hills, is like, bye! I'm gonna do the buttons on the heaver.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: She's hanging out with Mary Boleyn, who at this point's on the in the countryside, just trying to avoid all of this.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, we're gonna be over here now.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: They turned off their social media, do not disturb on their phones.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of parts of this.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: So sorry for my family.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's a Taylor Swift quote for those who don't know.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um okay, so they're all found guilty.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: Originally, their sentencing was the worst of the worst, which is our favorite.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: Hanging, drawn, and quartered.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: We love those.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, we aren't not able to describe that because all of their sentences were reduced to a beheading.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: A simple beheading.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um when they were all executed, they all were executed at once together.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: So they're all on Tower Hill in the Tower of London.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: So this was really interesting.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: This was something new that I learned in our research.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: They were executed in line with their nobility.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like in order of status.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: So George Bullen went first because he was the most noble.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, like he goes up, he's like, Cool, I'm first.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: He gives this whole long speech.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: They even think that maybe he his speech was so long because he was kind of speaking for everyone, because no one else had much to say after him.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: So he had this huge long thing that he said, like he was the worst sinner and he's done all these terrible things.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, use me as an example to like live a better life and don't fall to sin like I have.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: And he never admitted incest, but uh he did mention that he's lived a very sinful life, which is I think why people also think, oh, maybe he was a homosexual, because at this point he's saying, I've you know, I've done the darkest of sins type of thing.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: But he never admitted and still kind of claimed innocence when it came to Anne and the incest accusation.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I that obviously you wouldn't confess if something was completely fine, but I don't know.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because Anne doesn't do it later.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like she she doesn't.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: So but yeah, it's it's interesting to do that in order of nobility.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: I would I would have that sounds weird if I say I would have done it the other way around, right?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: So you've come to the dark side with us.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: What would I have done?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you have cookies.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um no, um basically, yeah, save the the most noble for last because he ha he makes the biggest impression.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: But that's true.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make sense, I guess.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was a courtesy because he didn't have to a like lay his neck on a bloody stump and then see all the other ones beforehand.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: So according to Allison Muir's book, it took three blows of the axe for George.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they said that he made his mark on the neck, so he didn't miss, but that it didn't sever his his head completely.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: So they had to do two three times blows.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: Mind you, the executioner, like beheadings were not that common because it was reserved for people of noble status, and there wasn't, it wasn't like a noble person was getting executed every other weekend.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't felt like that.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't have memberships to these executions to show up to.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, oh, cool.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want your season pass?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Front row season pass to this execution.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, no, I'm gonna sell them on the internet.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need to go to this one.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: IOTO probably sells it, so it's oh ticket master, they all get their tickets for it.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we're horrible people.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna go to hell one day.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: But anyways, see you there.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, so I'm sure the executioner didn't get that much practice beforehand, so I'm sure he's like, okay, I'm a little rusty, number one.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: And imagine the four other men standing there like, oh shit.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh shit, this is what I gotta do next.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so some people think that the reason their speeches were so short because they were terrified.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, well, they just saw this terrible bloody mess of three blows, and they're like, Okay, I'm ready to go.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just put it.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: I could just imagine.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: So Henry Norris was up next.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: I could just imagine like stepping to the side and being like, Weston, would you like to go before me?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're more you're more noble, right?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, like I'm kind of like sick in my stomach.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I know we're laughing about it, but my god, what a terrible day.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: That is not not the day I would like to do.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: So there's blood everywhere, heads are literally rolling, they're just throwing the bodies off onto a cart.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: Supposedly Thomas Wyatt, who we haven't really talked about, but he's like the poet who loved Anne.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: He was actually arrested for all of this as well.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, right?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: But he wasn't quite put on trial the same as the other five.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: Fascinating because he was probably the one most likely to sleep with Anne because they have a bit of a romantic history.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right, and history before she was queen.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: But he was supposedly watching because he did write a poem about what he saw.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: He did.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: I learned about it as an English major in my poetry class.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um do you think that Anne was watching also from the tower?
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so, because well, if she stayed where she was in the tower, she would not have been able to because her chambers, um, her view to Tower Hill is blocked by the White Tower in the Tower of London.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: She might have heard how they were dragged out to to get to the execution site, and then probably seen the bodies being brought back into the tower.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is possible.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but she wouldn't have been able to see the execution unless.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: She was dragged out to watch.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Didn't find anything on that.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: I I did read one quote from the sp the Spanish ambassador Chapuiz who said something along the lines of like, um, the concubine, as he called her, the concubine was watching the executions, which she was made to do.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, something like she was made to do.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, but he was the only one, and I don't think I think he's lost a lot of credit because he said his witness accounts say so many other things that just were not accurate.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: So he also really hated her.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I think he was just like digging that knife in a little bit more.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh yeah, Anne had to watch her brother get executed.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: I so that's really cool that you say that, Stephanie, because like you who physically know the layout of the tower, you're like, there's no way that she could have seen it from where her rooms were.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: Fascinating.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, like you said, unless they drug her from her room, it wasn't a thing.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: Unless she could, she could probably hear the crowds.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm sure she knew what was going on.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she would she would be able to hear that.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that far.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like if you think in modern terms, it's where the roughly where the tube station is.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And from the tube station to the entrance of the tower, it's about a five-minute walk.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that is not that much of a distance.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if depending on how many people are there, she I'm pretty sure she could have heard that.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Damn, wow.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so so the five accused are now executed, but we gotta focus back to Anne.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is Anne's story.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: This is Anne's story.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: So Anne's now up on trial.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: Is that chronologically correct?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Did she did she go on trial after they were killed?
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think so, right?
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: Was it a simultaneous trial?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's a bit overlapping, but yeah, it works that way.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: We'll just pretend and be confident about that.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, I mean, you know, they they go through her trials.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: She's not allowed to say a whole lot at this point.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she's accused of adultery, she's accused of incest, she's accused of high treason.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this is kind of interesting.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think Megan and I both learned this while we were researching.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it's often said that Henry kind of accused her of witchcraft.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: He even said things like, oh, you know, she deceived me, she used spells on me.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: But at this point in history, witchcraft isn't a thing that you can really be tried for.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe if this has happened happened like a century later, witchcraft would have also been like on her list of things she did.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but at this point in history it's not, it's really, I think it becomes like a uh an offense in 1540.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't until later that that was actually even introduced.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: So she wasn't accused of witchcraft, even though some people say that.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: That was more hearsay.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she did go to Hogwarts.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, she went to Hogwarts and was a Slytherin.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we know confirmed she's a witch.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: Clearly.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Love her.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: During her trial, she was, they said she's very composed, she was very well spoken, she stuck to like the facts, she was not hysterical, she was not pleading for herself.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: She answered, like, no, no, no.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, did you do this?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, did you do this?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: Did you sleep with this person?
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: They did ask the question, this came out so stupid.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, well, did you give money to Francis Weston?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: Which must be proof that you were sleeping with him.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: And she like pauses and she's like, Well, I did.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she's the queen, she's rich, and Weston had a lot of debt, and Weston was her friend.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: So she I think that's interesting because I think she was truly being honest.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think just by saying yes to one thing, like, well, I did, but that doesn't mean I'm guilty to everything else.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think she was being truly honest throughout her trial.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, who was on her trial?
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Who who was her jury?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we mentioned this briefly with George Boleyn, but Thomas Boleyn was there, and so was um what's his name?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: The Henry Percy, who was a guy she was engaged to at one point.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: And her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it's fascinating because the men who put her in this position, the men who made her be queen, the men who went through all, like pursued the Reformation and the divorce of Catherine of Aragon and all this stuff, and put her in this spot, are now the ones taking her down, taking her down and putting her on trial.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be pissed.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be pissed.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: I read in Ives that the Duke of Norfolk was reading out her sentence.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if your own uncle reads out your sentence.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Your uncle, yeah.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: And he was, I think in the cat or the Allison Weir book, um, he said he called her a whore.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like he was just like, oh, that whore.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, it's your niece, calm down.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: But they also were not on good terms ever.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like they didn't like each other.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of tension there usually.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's when we when you have to look within and be like, wow, I've got family drama, and then you hear this, and you're like, oh, never mind.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: My family drama's minimal.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: We don't try to we don't but each other up on murder trials and then sentence executions.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then be the one to verbalize their sentence.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so let's talk about our sentence because this is like all of this, like every single piece of this story is fascinating.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: So originally the sentence for adultery and incest is actually being burned.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was left up to Henry, essentially.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: They originally said, Okay, you are going to be burned at the stake or you're going to be um beheaded as it like uh whatever the king decides it, as the king's pleasure, or however they they phrase that.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um so Henry, because he has such a heart of gold, wonderful king, thinks, oh, I think burning is a bit too harsh for Anne.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just do a simple beheading.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: And Anne had uh requested that if she were to be beheaded, she didn't want to be on a block with an axe and you know, kind of a traditional style.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: That happened to George.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're right, especially after the George incident.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she requested a French swordsman um to, you know, be taken like taken in from France and that she'd kneel and have her head cut off that way.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: So she wouldn't have to be on a stump or a block and she wouldn't have to have the blow of the axe.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: It would be a skilled kind of one-blow finesse sword.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: Smitten off her head.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: Off her shoulders.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: And she even made a joke that, oh, they should call me Anne Boleyn Lackneck or something like that.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: What was that?
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, so she was she was in the tower and she it was it was kind of like the night the night before, and kind of talk about like her behavior at this point.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: So she is getting a little bit delirious, maybe, because I think it's starting to settle in, and she's realizing, my god, like look at what's happened.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: And she's talking to her ladies and waiting in in her tower, and they're kind of giggling, and she's like, in the future, they'll call me Anne Lackhead.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think, in in the Constable Kingston and his wife, who was observing this and kind of relaying everything over to the king and to Cromwell, they said, you know, she's kind of like in between sorrow and dis hysteria, like just laughing and making these weird little jokes.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I think it was Chapui who said too that he's never seen anyone so ready and willing to die.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, she was just again like made jokes of things.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: She talked about, oh, you know, what like at some point her French swordsman was delayed, and she's like, Oh, well, you know, why does this keep getting delayed?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, I, you know, I have but a little neck.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: She's like that's like the famous line.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have but a little neck.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: The swordsman's very good, and I have but a little neck.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: So at this point, she's just like, she's laughing, she's making jokes, she's very willing and ready to die.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the delays only make her more upset because she's like, I'm gonna lose my resolve, like I'm ready to do this now.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's just get this over with.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about these delays.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: At this point, it's May 18th, 1536.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: And she's set to be executed, and she is prepared, she's mentally prepared, she's physically prepared, she's dressed up, she's ready, and she's waiting for them to come up and take her.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: And instead they say, I'm sorry, my lady, but the swordsman is coming from France and there's been bad weather.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, some delays in his travel plans.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: And she says something along the lines of like, but I was so ready to die.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: Not that I want to die, but I'm afraid that if this if this gets prolonged longer, I'm going to lose my reserve.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: Resolve.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: Resolve.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: And reserve.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: And reserve.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, so she uh, you know, says something to the effect of I was prepared to be dead by this time tomorrow.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: So she's gets upset about these delays.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um but she does receive finally her last holy sacraments, and which is interesting because we we talked about this before we started recording, but obviously she spent all of her life being a reformist and talking about these new ideals, um, you know, the Church of England, and here she is in her final days, like making sure her soul is ready for death.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: So she's taking her last holy sacrament, she's giving her last confession, which again, she didn't accuse or confess to anything that you know she that was revealing.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: She basically said, I was never, uh, I think she the way she phrased it was I never sinned against the king with my body.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: So she's basically saying, I never, you know, cheated on him.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was not an adulteress, I did not, I wasn't incestuous, um, all of those things, but but she spent her last days as a Catholic.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: After all that.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: After all of that, like you were pretty much the reason for the English Reformation and breaking away from Rome, and then your final day you're like, well, better make sure I go to heaven.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: We are now at May 19th, 1536, the day of her execution.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_02: She wakes up.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: There was another delay, like by an hour or so.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think so, because originally it was scheduled for 9 a.m., I want to say.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's finally her time.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_02: They come and get her.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's the morning of she's wearing a beautiful grayish gown with a fur strote and a red kirdle underneath.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right, like a red petticoat, which is in line with the Catholicism thing we were just talking about, where red is the uh color of Catholic martyrdom.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked about this in our Mary Queen of Scots episode where uh Mary Queen of Scots did the same thing where she's like, I'm gonna make a statement, I'm gonna wear red, and show them that I'm going to be a Catholic martyr.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: So Anne did the same thing because she's so Catholic.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: So kind of going back, Stephanie, to the actual layout of how the tower is.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: So she comes out, and this was intended to be a private execution.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was kind of the courtesy of the queen that we're gonna make this quote unquote private.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: But there was a lot of people, right?
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_02: A thousand.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_02: A mere private audience of a thousand.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think like the climate would have been?
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it was like people like hollering and shouting?
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it was like stoic and awkward?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know if we know what it was like, but what what what do you think?
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's a bit of a little bit of both because obviously people she wasn't the most popular queen, that's unfortunate to be honest, at her time.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: So she always because of what happened with Catherine American, so they were she always had she had enemies from the beginning, so to speak.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think her trial with all those people, even those who are related to her, um, if your own family doesn't believe in you, then you know, it's kind of very strange scene.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I think people are excited and also a bit maybe scared because she is the first queen, the English queen to be executed.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a good time.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like curiosity, like obviously executions were of interest anyway, but like you get to see the execution of an English queen, which never happened before.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so I think it's like a mixture of curiosity and um maybe a little bit of being in awe in a way of oh my god, you see the queen, like you know, it's just because it's not a daily thing for many people.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think yeah, it's it's not the same mood or attention with as with the guys before, two days before.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is more of a popular, yeah, cheering and let's get them executed kind of thing.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't think the same um was going on during it ends execution.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was also way smaller, so it's almost only people coming up.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: Only a mere thousand.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: They they did say that they were hoping the delays deterred the number of people from growing because if they had a set date and time, there could have been a thousand more.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, but people are gonna wait.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure it was like waiting outline for a concert.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like people were willing to wait overnight.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're camping out in their tents.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe, maybe is my perception.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she was given a little pouch of money, a little money, only at the time 20 pounds.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: So so I learned modern days, it was about equivalent to 7,000 pounds of what she paid the headsman.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, pounds or dollars?
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: Pounds.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: Pounds.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm saying that because Stephanie's here, which is pretty much.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: Also, that's what the book said.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: It said 7,000 pounds.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: And she did give some money to the poor people who were standing around.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: So she was kind of going and she was giving them money.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: And they said she kept looking up or like looking behind her.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: And some people said, like, I think she still thinks she's gonna be saved.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, I think she's still gonna be like, Okay, Henry's gonna come up and be like, This was a test, you're actually gonna go to a nunnery.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't real.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: This is actually just a pageant I put on.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: Your perseverance, you made it.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: Perseverance, again, like, and she kept looking up, like, okay, this is happening, this is really happening, and she just like kept giving the coins out.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then she has to pay her headsman.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the executioner was paid by Cromwell to dress very nicely, and he wasn't wearing your typical executioner outfit.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's like black hood.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't have the hood, he didn't have any of that.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: He looked like a nobleman, like he he was a French man, and to the point where she was even up there on the scaffold, and she said, Who is the headsman?
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, which one is he?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um the scaffold's about five feet high, and it's covered in a black cloth with straw to soak up the blood afterwards, and her coffin is sitting there waiting for her.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: So imagine, like Oh, it wasn't.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: Stephanie, am I crazy?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know, but that's oh, that's that's what I read in one resource.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, that's fine.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: As we said, sources are big.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it also, I mean, just really quick to rewind a little bit to the point of her waiting for something to stop and like Henry to come out and be like, no, no, you're fine.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that's how much we cling to hope as humans.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like until you're literally dying breath, you're like, this isn't gonna happen.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, someone's gonna come, like, someone's gonna say me, this isn't real.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what a whirlwind of emotions, and for her to still be so composed is so impressive.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because obviously she was composed.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: She was still looking around.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: She obviously was a bit nervous when she got up there ready for her speech and all of that, but in general, she she held it together pretty well.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that for me would also prove her innocence.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because if she you know, if so convinced know if you'd still hope the king is gonna save you, you you for yourself at least believe you haven't done what you are accused of because otherwise she would know that is kind of half justified.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that she she as she's as you said before as well, that um she might not have been the nicest wife at some times, you know, but she definitely didn't do what she was accused of.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think she kept with on with that help for as long as she could.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: At the end, I think that's all she was guilty of was sorry I had a sharp tongue and I spoke my mind.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: She was a woman who ahead of her times, to be honest.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like she was a political woman, she was a strong-minded woman, and people were not ready for that, which is so sad.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and Stephanie, we we said this bit in our first uh part of this episode too.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: But we're like, it's so ironic that the qualities that make you such an attractive mistress are now all of a sudden these things that take you down as queen.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, oh you know, look at me as a mistress.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I speak my mind and I'm out there, and you know, I'm desirable, and you know, I have all these important things to say, and people listen to me, I'm the center of attention.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: But as a wife, you're like, well, you can't do that.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can't be the center of attention and speak your mind and make policy, you know, suggestions.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: You just sit there quietly and you breed sons, which she failed to do.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: So because it was a swordsman and not they didn't use an axe, she had to kneel down.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but she says her speech.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: Stephanie with your beautiful accent.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, as much as our listeners want to hear us butcher this speech in America, I guess.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: Y'all get it?
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: Butcher.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're terrible.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, would you like to read her final speech?
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I uh I'll try to do her justice.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: Read it just like Anne.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_02: Have a little tremble in your voice if you could.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: Don't tremble.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: I do all my best.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're on the spot.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, she just knelt down, um, waiting for the executioner, but obviously she's allowed to have some um last words.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: So she sat down and said, Good Christian people, I have not come here to preach a sermon, I have come here to die.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: For according to the law, and by the law I am judged to die, and therefore I will speak nothing against it.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: I am come hither to accuse no man, nor to speak of whereof I am accused and condemned to die.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I pray God save the king and send him long reign over you.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: For a gentler nor a more merciful prince was there than ever, and to me he was ever a good, a gentle, and sovereign lord.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if any person will meddle of my cause, I require them to judge the best, and thus I take my leave of the world and of you all, and I heartily desire for you all to pray for me.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think we just looked at each other, we both had tears in our eyes.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: I have to leave the room.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think we had an emotional side.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_02: What is that?
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've never seen you emotional.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: That was beautiful.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: That was beautiful.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_02: Cheers, cheers, cheers.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, zoom cheers.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: Zoom cheers.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um she never really confesses guilt.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: No, but yet you have to wonder, like, okay, this is your husband who is murdering you, and you are only saying these kind words about him.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's never been a more merciful okay, as you're kneeling with a sword next to you.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_02: But like, but she had to because she was thinking also of her daughter, Elizabeth.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's true.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_02: Her bastard daughter now, and she's like, if I come up here and if I if I only say evil things that I want to say.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows what Elizabeth's fates were?
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, her fate would have, she would have been in a similar position.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like, right.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: So um, that's heavy.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: Those are some heavy words.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's a swordsman um with the sword and not an axe, she doesn't have a block.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: She's kneeling.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: She just kneels.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very important that she doesn't flinch when the sword comes because it can be disastrous.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: Don't move.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_02: At this point, she's getting nervous.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: She said her speech, she's kneeling, and they said she just kept kind of repeating prayers of like, um, oh gosh, what's she?
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like, Lord forgive my like Lord forgive me, Lord, Lord accept me, Lord accept me into your Christian, like, like, you know, just praying and mumbling.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: And she kept fiddling with her, with her coiff, like her little cap.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a little white hair thing.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_02: I I should mention her ladies took off like the elaborate parts of her of her costume and took off her.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: She wore a gable, which wasn't like her, she normally wore a French hood, but they took off her gable, they took off everything, and so she's sitting there with a coif on her head, like a little white cap, and she keeps fiddling with it.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, no, you girl, you gotta put your hand down.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: Take your hand down, otherwise everything's gonna go over.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can't have you can't be fiddling.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: And she was said to have said something about the coif.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, she told her swordsman, like, oh, I can't the the coif can't be here, like it's gonna get in the way.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, No, you're fine.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm literally that's not what's gonna stop that.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's not gonna stop the sword.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he says, like, don't worry.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then he also told her, like, I won't do it till you're ready.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because she was like really afraid of like, I want to get my words out, I want to get my speech out, and I want to say my prayers.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, everyone around her, like all of her ladies are crying at this point, and he's like, Don't worry, my lady, like, I will wait for you.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so now she's ready.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and this is impactful.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody starts kneeling down.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: You're right, kneeling to their queen, except for two people.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh Henry Cavill, the Duke of Suffolk, aka Henry Cavill, if you have to have a nice image in your mind.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_02: And as you should, and um, Henry's bastard son, Henry Fitzroy.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're not kneeling, so what a statement.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's brutal.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if she saw that.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, she's blindfolded.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is she blindfolded?
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's yeah, she's yeah, okay.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: But like also, I when I read that Henry Fitzroy is there, and I was like, that is so harsh.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because she was his stepmother for us, kind of.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: And because she's been with Henry for a long time.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they were married just for three years, but they've been together for for long times.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: So and he was 17.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you know that's oh whoa, what a weird way to think of that.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: A weird position to be in.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, but then again, he also dies six weeks later.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_02: So wait, he does?
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he does.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_02: From being sick?
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_02: He was just a sickly boy.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_02: Sickly boy.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he was sick, yeah.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, he when somebody loses heaven in the 1500s.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um the so as we mentioned, her head, like she can't turn her head, and that's human instinct.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_02: If there's an axe coming at your face, your instinct is to look at it, and it's gonna get you on the jaw, and then you're just screwed.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's just not how you want to go out.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: And and the executioner recognized this and he knew this, so he had a plan.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_02: Who wants to share?
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: His plan.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I can attempt this, but uh so what he did was he um he stepped out of his shoes.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: So he kind of made some noises so she knew roughly where he was, and then he snuck out of his shoes with his little stockings on and went to the other side of her um and then made a noise on that side so she looked and turned her head.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: Some people think that he told uh uh like he said, Boy, get my sword or something like that.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: To his assistant.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_01: So he either made some noise or said something, and then as soon as she kind of looked that way or veered that way, he stepped back to the original side and went and one swift blow.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: One swift blow.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: And again, thank the Lord that it wasn't a botched execution because it's messy enough when it's on a block, but when you're just kneeling there and it's just a sword, like that could go a lot of different ways.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_02: And the benefit of the sword was that it's supposed to be a cleaner cut, right?
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it's supposed to be more accurate, but it's only accurate if the execution knee doesn't mess it up.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so congratulations, Anne.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: Good job, Anne.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: Should we do a little round of applause?
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that was a beautiful execution.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: She did good.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_02: She did good, girl.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know if I'd have to be like Catherine Howard and practice a million times.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: Practice feeling.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, to make sure I knew what to do, where to put my hands.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot to handle.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the execution happens.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: Anne is now dead.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's different kinds of accounts of what happens to her body immediately after because the four maids that she was with were very particular that they didn't want men to handle her.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_01: So as soon as she was dead, they're like, no, no, no man is to touch her, like, we will handle this.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, other people say that that wasn't necessarily true, that the man had to grab her because he was the only one strong enough to take away her body.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but they take away her head, they take away her body.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: There was no record of her head being displayed or shown up or held up or anything like that.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and was she immediately put in the where she's buried now?
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_01: And where is that?
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: You say it better than we do, Stephanie.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: So she the the four ladies, they brought her to the chapel in Tower of London, um, which was called St.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: Peter at Vincula.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's still there.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: We can still visit.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: We had last year, 500-year anniversary of the chapel.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's still there, she was put into an unmarked grave.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so because obviously no one wanted to remember her in that kind of way, but then during the Victorian period, um they were able to identify her bones.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: Still not 100% sure how they did that, but um because no DNA and that kind of stuff.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_00: But now she has a marked stone on the floor in the chapel, so you can technically walk over her in a way, but so yeah, you're not allowed to take pictures inside the chapel, otherwise, I'll take it and show you one, but um because it's still an active service, so you can still have um the Holy Communion there and Mass.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, not Holy Communion because it's not Catholic, but yeah, yeah, close enough.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I I read that George Boleyn is there too somewhere.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, the others are there too.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the uh Norris, Weston, Burton, and Smeaton are also in there.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_02: I need to go and pay my respects, I feel like.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: We will.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: What is that like around her anniversary at the tower on May 19th anniversary?
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_02: And tell us about this.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: So so it's the day I know we're in the past right now, but as this episode is getting released, we are releasing this today on May 19th on her anniversary.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, what is going on at the Tower of London, pretending we're in the future and it's May 19th?
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_02: What's happening?
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_02: And we're there.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_02: We're here, we're here right now.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's really interesting because so it wasn't my first year when I first started at Historic Broad Palace.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I started in April 2019.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_00: So around this time, um, about a month in, I was working there, and suddenly I got a call saying, I want to pay my respect to George.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I hadn't like obviously I know George Berlin, but I the woman didn't make it sound like she was talking about George Berlin.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Just George?
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: First name.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: First name.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is that your your your name?
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: One of the lay down a reef, and you know, you know, one of lay down flowers, and I was like, who's what's going on?
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're like, oh no, we can't accept it.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_00: But then I Googled it, it was like, oh, today's May 17th.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Ah.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Do you get the I want to say the crazies, because we do get the crazies.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_02: We're the crazies, that's us.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's gonna be us who shows up.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Who believe they are the reincarnation of En Boleyn walking the tower wanting to come.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's um people do pay respects in a way, they would want to.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we can we can't allow at the moment, it's not possible anyway.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, fun fact the tower reopens today, May 5th of May.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yay, May 19th! I think they did that intentionally.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_02: The tower's open.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Back on track.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yay! And so is it pretty crowded then?
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, uh not obviously like this May 19th, it's a big grand reopening, but on like a typical May 19th, it's crowded.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like people people know what's going on.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say it's more crowded unless it's um school holidays, but it's usually not more crowded than that's good news.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe 2022, 2019 will be there.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good idea.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's our goal.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's make a plan.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_02: So Anne Boleyn is clearly a legacy, yeah.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_02: And she has a like you had mentioned people who are on the extreme spectrum of crazy and they believe they are her, but there she has a huge following, like she has fans.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I would call myself, I'm wearing a shirt that says Boleyn.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I would say I'm an Anne Boleyn fan.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a descendant.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you are an anomaly.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, again, Mary, Mary is my grandmother, but Anne is my grandmother.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Great times 15 grandmother is Mary.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Boleyn.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that means Anne is your 15th great aunt.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously, I'm not the only one related to her.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's a million of us.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: I see a lot of your features in her.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I have some qualities.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think Megan can speak to my Slytherin-ness.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_01: She's ambitious.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_01: But overall, like But I'm charming at parties.
• 1:12:19
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_02: You're very musical.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Be careful.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Be careful.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can do it.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_01: I also need to make sure.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, can I make it past the age of 35?
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is that when she's 35, 36, depending on when she's born?
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Five minutes.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_02: You're safe.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_02: I was proud I made it past the 27 clubs.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_02: My 33rd birthday is coming up, so I'm close.
• 1:12:38
  unknown: Okay.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we have this legacy of Anne, and she's obviously in like so many movies and TV shows and different renditions.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know, like, from both of you.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh let's start with Steph.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm calling you Steph.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what's your favorite Ambolyn rendition?
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like portrayable portrayal.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's the word I'm looking for.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Your favorite portrayal of Ambolyn.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think it has to be Natalie Dormer in your future.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_00: It just has to be.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because even though obviously the show is not 100% uh historically correct, but that's fine.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_00: What they're aiming for.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Just kidding.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_02: I knew that.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_00: But um what I like about it is how they portray their courtship, how they portray their their love for each other, which I believe was there.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, that missed her the the best recent one, at least that I have seen.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I couldn't get like around my head Natalie Portman, is it?
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't work.
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Of course she's American.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can see that.
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Natalie Portman was I I get what they were again going for.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think she has an appropriate look, I suppose.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_01: But you know the olive skin, right?
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_01: The dark features.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think just she's a bit too, I guess, girl next door, where I think Anne was a bit more intelligent and kind of clever.
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think, like you said, Natalie portrays that really well in the channel.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_01: She's very seductive.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because she's got this seductive quality about her, and not that I think She's hot.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, she's got that weird little mouth thing.
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_01: She's going on a very specific like side smile, and everything about her is very like subtle and complex.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't, you know, it's not just oh that she's a beautiful woman or she's Natalie Portman.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's very like Natalie versus Natalie, the Natalie's face off.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's very, it's very again like under the surface, like there's something very intriguing about her, which Natalie pulls when I Natalie Dorman like pulls up very, very well.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_01: I also love the rendition of um, and I'm gonna say it wrong, but Henry and Anne, the the documentary we referenced it last time.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_02: The it's a documentary called Henry and Anne The Lovers Who Changed History.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that one.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_02: I love a documentary with a good um Anne.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_02: With a good Anne, but like with some good like reenactments.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like when they're they're super cheesy and when they do that thing and they read letters and they look in the camera.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love it.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Whenever they whenever they do that, it pulls at my heartstrings.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, so that version of An Bolyn too, I know it's like obviously only a too very obsessed obsessed.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: No one knows what we're talking about.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_01: People know, but that that Anne's also very good because she's got that same quality of like, you know, there's something under the surface that you can't quite unpack, and she's got a lot of layers to her.
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_01: So anyone that pulls off of that is impressive to me.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're not just like a pretty brunette, you're like, whoa.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's something that we need to unfold here, you know, as time goes on.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I just watched Wolf Hall for the first time, which is a PBS series, and it's all it's based on Hillary Mantle's book, Wolf Hall, and then Bring Up the Bodies.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, I'm so I didn't read Wolf Hall, but I read Bring Up the Bodies, and I'm pretty sure the series like stops after this.
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's gonna be more.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Anyways.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_02: At first, I wasn't sure if I liked Claire Foy as Anne Boleyn.
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, okay, her eyes are blue.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_02: She wasn't supposed to have blue eyes, she's very fair looking.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_02: But personality-wise, mind you, this is kind of like a like Anne's very much the protagonist in the series.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's all through Cromwell's perspective, and I think unanimously we can all agree we don't necessarily like Cromwell.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, thanks.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_02: Stephanie's shaking her head.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_02: We're all like so in in this series, Cromwell's the antagonist.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, I've got them mixed up.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Cromwell's the protagonist.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_02: Anne is the antagonist.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: So they make Anne look bad.
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I had that backwards.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they kind of make Anne look out to be terrible.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I know we've said some pretty bad things, but they really make her look terrible.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I did really like the costumes in it, and I thought that she like that was the best execution reenactment I've ever seen.
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because like the way that she was like trying to be composed, as they said she was, but like underlying trembling, like there was just her acting in it was like I've I had butterflies in my stomach, and I watched it like three times in a row.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And Megan had me watch it as well, so we watched it together.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And in that reenactment, too, like she's very quiet because you assume she's like my good Christian people, kind of like speaking to everyone, but in that reenactment, she's a bit more quiet and stoic, you know.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like she's rehearsed it, but she can't get it out right and then there's some people that are like I can't hear her, you know.
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like and she does the whole fumbling like of her hand and Cromwell's like putting your hand down, like so.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_01: It shows kind of her nervous side, I guess, which felt real, it felt very real.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, I might give it a go.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: You should.
• 1:17:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's on Amazon Prime, so it is a UK one, so fully.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, no, but I do love Claire Foy, I have to say, she is a really good actress.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_00: I do like her actress.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do like her.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why too.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_02: She's just a good actress, right?
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_02: So she's great.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then should we like take a breath?
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I should be like take a drink, take a shot.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_01: What are we supposed to do?
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_01: I guess.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, cheers to Anne Boleyn.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers to Anne Boleyn, a woman who was born far before her time.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Stephanie, thank you so much.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_02: We can't thank you enough.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was amazing.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this we again, like we really just wanted to make this episode special and you got it right insider information and you know, even just reading Ann's final words.
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've never cried before my entire life.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_02: That was the first time I've I've ever shed a tear.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_02: I saw a tear from Megan.
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_02: So um, well, everybody, we want to thank you for listening to season two of Beheaded.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_02: We, as our usual, we will be taking a hiatus.
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna be dying in Arizona, and we'll be back in October.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna be, yeah, just in the heat waiting all summer until we're ready to podcast again in the fall.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So see you soon.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Stephanie, do you have any final words?
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Not today.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.