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How To Deal With Imposter Syndrome, Burnout and Performance Anxiety With Leah Marone | The Mental Healness Podcast · The Mental Healness Podcast

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Nobody is thinking about you as much, even a fraction of how
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much you're thinking about yourself.
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Everybody's analyzing themselves and in their own heads.
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And I mean, how many times have we circled back with someone and
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said about that e-mail or about how I said that, you know, a
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year ago or whatever. And people are like, I don't
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even know what you're talking. About On this episode of the
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Mental Illness Podcast, We're Breaking the Cycle.
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Psychologist Leah Marrone joins Lee Hammock to unpack the truth
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behind imposter syndrome, perfectionism, and the pressure
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to always perform. If you're ready to care for your
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mind, set better boundaries, and finally breathe, this episode is
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for you. What is going on, beautiful
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folks? Welcome to another episode of
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the Mental Illness Podcast where we talk about all things mental
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health. If you're new here, my name is
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Lee Hammock. I'm someone that's been
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diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and I use
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my platform to raise awareness for all things mental health
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related to get the conversation started into in the stigma.
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Today we have a very special guest for y'all we have Mrs.
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Leah Marrone. She is a psychologist, a Yale
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clinical instructor and corporate mental Wellness
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consultant went over 20 years of experience that she still she's
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talking about as a former Division One athlete.
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She specializes in high achievers struggling with
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imposter syndrome, affectionism and performance anxiety, has
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conducted over 20,000 therapy sessions and contributed
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Psychology Today, Newsweek and The Atlantic.
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She works with organization. She works with organizations on
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burnout prevention, boundary setting and emotional
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intelligence. A sort out the speaker, Lee has
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presented her support Don't solve framework to leaders
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nationwide. Her new book Serial Fixer
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explores the hidden patterns of over function and how to break
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free. Thank you so much, Leah.
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Thank you. Welcome to the podcast Doing the
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Day. I'm great.
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I'm excited to talk to you. Yeah, like likewise.
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So introduce yourself. I I know, I, I read you a little
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by your bio. I know it does not do you
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justice so. Oh, gosh, do you?
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Well, let's say, I mean, I yeah, I have a private practice.
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I live in Charlotte, NC And so I do.
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I specialize in anxiety disorders and I do work with a
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lot of athletes, high performers, cereal fixers, and
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that's kind of my clinical hat. And then I'm really kind of
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similar to you where it's I'm really just living and breathing
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mental health, right? Not only for myself, but trying
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to createspace for people and corporations and nonprofits,
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educators and just really educate and support around
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issues, around boundaries, around overextension, around
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just burnout. So it really, I'm kind of flying
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by the seat of my pants, but I'm loving it because it's all
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things mental health. And I think it's such a huge and
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always has been a huge topic and how we function as humans.
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Oh yay, I didn't know you were based in Charlotte though.
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I saw on your site you're doing a Ted X and it said, I say Ted X
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Mallard Creek. I was like, that's Mallard Creek
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in Charlotte. I, I know of Reese.
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So I live in, I live, I'm in, I'm in North Carolina as well.
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I live in Durham. My twin brother's a, he's my
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twin. My twin brother's a teacher in
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Charlotte. Super small world.
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I was like, wait, Charlotte, OK, super small world.
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So Speaking of imposter syndrome, what, what exactly is
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imposter syndrome? And like, how does it apply to
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like, mental health and things like that?
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Yeah, it's such a, you know, it's one of those buzz phrases
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that's been around, you know, just kind of, it has gotten a
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lot of limelight I think the last few years, which rightfully
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so. And you know, there's been a lot
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of discrepancies of like, is it really a thing?
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Is it not? And the really the way I like to
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phrase it is, you know, syndrome sounds sometimes a little
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overdramatic, but it's honestly, it's like the protective parts
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of us, like our internal bodyguards, whether it's the
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critic in us, the pleaser in us that almost is working too hard,
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right? It's almost feeding us these
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false narratives or futuristic like what ifs that are
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interwoven with anxiety to, you know, keep us like on high alert
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to keep us over prepared. So we kind of step into a new
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role, We step into a scenario, we step into something in life
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and automatically, you know, it ignites this critic in us that's
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like, Are you ready for this? Like, you know, something might
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happen and you might feel things that collectively humans don't
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like to feel like I'll equipped or embarrassed or, you know,
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this sense of failure, all these things.
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So it is like this internal alert system that is trying to
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protect us, but it's feeding us kind of these scenarios that
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tend to trigger anxiety and self doubt and we begin to question
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and not really utilize our strengths and resilience.
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So it's it's a whole like shift of just where we want to be and
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how we want to deliver and it's very negative.
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So is it the way you described it?
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I liked how you you put the emphasis on the syndrome word
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because I think when people add syndrome to it, you
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automatically make it seem like people automatically make it
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seem like it's something bad, like it's a dark cloud.
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But the way you described it made it seem like it starts off
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as some type of form of self protection and whatnot.
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Is that true right there? What do you think about that?
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It is. It is.
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And typically people who are, you know, kind of suffering
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from, you know, this like imposter syndrome or just this
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self doubt. I mean, you really have to look
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and take a step back and think, well, these people are first and
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foremost pushing themselves. They're stepping out into
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something that's unknown. They're taking a risk.
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They're, you know, they've accepted an invitation for
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something that is not scripted, that is not, you know, something
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that they maybe have a ton of reps with and feel comfortable
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with. And so just that alone is huge
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and I think needs to be validated because people that
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are suffering from kind of this cyclical internal criticism,
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imposter syndrome, it's because they're doing something that
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they don't, they don't, it's not a habit yet.
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It's not something that's comfortable.
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And that right there is huge. So I think just even stepping
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back and if you're someone where you're like, Oh my gosh, I'm
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always in my head, I'm always self doubting, I'm always this,
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it's like, well, OK, that's because you're probably also
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pushing yourself, which is awesome.
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You're not stagnating. That's that's powerful right
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there. I like, I like how you put that
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because as soon as I like someone, you know, I have a
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personality disorder. So when I hear a pasta syndrome
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and I hear those, the voices in my head telling me it's
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typically like negative self talk.
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It's when I'm doing something that I feel like I need to be
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doing. Like even when I was starting
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this podcast, I had wrote down a list of things like my limiting
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beliefs and I was just like, nobody's going to want to be on
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it. Nobody's going to listen to it.
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You know, Are you ready to to talk to people and stuff like
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that? Nobody's going to talk to you.
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You're going to flub your words. And it was all this stuff right
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here is just telling me I didn't deserve to do this or this is
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going to fail even before I started it.
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And because I've been in therapy so long, I know those I, I can
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recognize the warning signs and like, OK, but my body is telling
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me this. It's something that I absolutely
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need to do. You know, it's something that's
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outside of my comfort zone. And I, I kind of use it as a
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guideline to, to make sure I'm trying to, I'm on the right path
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sometimes right there, you know, so I like how you put that right
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there. Just like it doesn't necessarily
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have to be a, a negative thing. Yeah, I, I was, I was always
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interested in imposter syndrome because I hear people say that
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when they're in toxic relationships as well or toxic
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workplaces, they feel like they don't deserve something or like
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this isn't, they're having like a somewhat of an out of body
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experience sometimes as well. And it just they shut down, you
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know, do you do you experience that right there?
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Because I know you, you've helped, you know, high achievers
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and things like that. And I think do a lot of high
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achievers experience this is possible syndrome?
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Oh, absolutely. And that's kind of sometimes
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where it's confusing because you think of, you know, how we
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collectively and culturally define success.
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Like it's a lot of times the most successful people in our
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eyes are dealing and kind of really working hard at combating
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some of that internal turmoil and that imposter syndrome
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because they are constantly taking risks and putting
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themselves out there. And I love how you are
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vulnerable and shared like just when you started the podcast,
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like what if no one listens? What if this, what if this?
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And that too, if you really take a step back, like that is the
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part of your brain, like the protective part that's actually
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doing its job. It's, it's coming in over to,
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it's like working in overtime and giving you 10 bodyguards
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when you need one, But like it's doing its job.
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And but that's, you know, once you have that realization of
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like, OK, OK, this is the task of this part of my brain to
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overprotect me, to give me a slew of what is what if
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scenarios that are incredibly overdramatic and for me to be as
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prepared as I can. And that though, if you're not
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aware of that and kind of almost validate those protective parts
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of you and you're like, hey, hey, you're working really hard.
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I appreciate you. But if you could scale back a
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little bit, you know, so those parts of me that are confident,
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those parts of me that can access like stuff that I've done
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in the past, like we may be able to recalibrate and and actually
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do some good things. So I think it's amazing that you
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shared that because I've, I've definitely experienced that as
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an athlete, as a speaker, all the things and it's learning how
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to soothe and work with that part of you rather than kind of
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thinking, what the hell is wrong with me is this.
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Does anyone else experience this?
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And yes, it does. They do.
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Yeah, I, I love how you put the the 10 bodyguards.
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We only need one because that's literally how my mind is.
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Like I'm surrounded by my thoughts and it's like I can't
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breathe sometimes. So it's just not sometimes it
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would feel like it's easier to just not do it than to face that
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anxiety or their pressure of actually doing it.
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And then like one of those bodyguards is telling you that
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you're going to fail and you don't want to validate that
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bodyguard like you're going to fail, right?
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You know, if you do this, you're going to fail.
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And then if you have a slip up, you just validate that right
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there and it could make you shut down right there.
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And I think a lot of people in this, this situation feel like
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they have to be perfect when they're taking on new tasks and
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whatnot. I know you specialize in, you
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know, helping people, you know, deal with the deal with the, I
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can't, how, how do I phrase this helping people deal with being
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perfectionist? Like how, how to, how to help
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people stop being perfectionist? Is that where I'm I'm going?
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Yeah, or just to get kind of looking at like, perfectionism
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again. It's like, it's like anything,
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you know, if there's too much or too little, it's like we want to
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find that sweet spot, right? And so it is like those
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perfectionistic tendencies and maybe even just anxious thought
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patterns, they serve us well in a lot of ways.
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Like they keep you going, they keep you pushing forward, they
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keep you productive. But when it comes in too strong,
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that's when we, you know, get pushed out of the present and
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are too engulfed in the futuristic thinking or rehashing
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the past. And so many overthinkers and so
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many people with perfectionistic tendencies, myself included.
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I think we also get so fixated on what other people might be
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categorizing us as or like the stamp that they're giving us or
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if we say something or do something that's not maybe
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executed perfectly, that we've kind of ruined everyone's vision
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of us. And if you think about it,
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that's pretty egocentric in some respects.
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And we're really just in our own head.
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And I have to constantly remind people I work with and myself on
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occasion that like, nobody's thinking about you as much, even
10:55
a fraction of how much you're thinking about yourself.
10:57
Everybody's analyzing themselves and in their own heads.
11:00
And I mean, how many times have we circled back with someone and
11:03
said, you know, about that e-mail or about how I said that,
11:06
you know, a year ago or whatever.
11:07
And people are like, I don't even know what you're talking
11:09
about. Like people are not that in that
11:12
cycle of over analyzing as much as we are with ourselves.
11:15
And sometimes that can be a very comforting thing to kind of
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soothe that part of us that is just very egocentric and wanting
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to execute and be on everyone's good graces.
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I face that right there a lot, though, like what you just said
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about how people you're thinking about something you said five
11:33
years ago and how it might have came off wrong.
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I have I faced that all like all the time.
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I was like, why did I say that so long ago?
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I bet this person hates me for that.
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And because now I'm on this this kind of self enrichment personal
11:46
growth journey. I'll go back and talk to
11:48
somebody about that. And it's like, huh, like I
11:50
literally what you just say they like, I, you still think about
11:54
that? Like I, you just reminded me of
11:56
it. Now, now I'm angry because you
11:57
said that. So somehow it, it can't.
12:00
So now you, you unintentionally restart a fire that was already
12:04
put out and people have forgot about.
12:05
So I do battle that, that type of stuff right there.
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It's like on a consistent basis, just like, well, how did I say
12:12
this wrong? Would that mean would you refer
12:14
to as the inner critic in your work?
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And I know you have people deal with the inner critic.
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Would that be kind of on the same like plateau right there?
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Absolutely. Yeah, you nailed it.
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I mean, it is. It's kind of that if you think
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about different filters that we use to process information and a
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lot of us with fearsome or critics, you know, it is it's
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kind of that very critical kind of sometimes perfectionistic
12:35
like this isn't good enough. People are going to think this,
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you know, that that filter again, can be very productive in
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keeping us productive. But when it's overused or we're
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not able to kind of calm it down, it keeps us on high alert
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all the time. You know, we're just in that
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like always being on stage and very driven sometimes by motives
12:56
that aren't necessarily ones that we can achieve.
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So how do people become perfectionist?
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Like how does that even begin? Yeah.
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I mean it is, it's kind of the whole, there's the nature
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nurture, right. So we have some of that is
13:08
biologically wired and now we're kind of predispositioned for
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that neurologically and just by, you know, from a biology
13:14
standpoint. But also just how we're raised
13:17
and who models for us and how we're parented and who we're
13:21
around a lot. You know, growing up and kind of
13:24
the messages and kind of the associations that we make at a
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very young age. And, you know, if we are, you
13:30
know, given and kind of feel that sense of connection, if
13:33
we're praised, when we execute well, when we're five steps
13:36
ahead, when we get those grades, when we do XY and Z and and
13:40
things are very performance based, we do from a very young
13:43
age, we start to make those associations and, you know,
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success equals performance, success equals is this.
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And we get so wrapped up in that.
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And I think a lot of perfectionistic tendencies stems
13:55
from very rigid thinking. We kind of find ourselves in
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that very black or white thinking that all or nothing
14:00
thinking. And it's really a struggle
14:03
sometimes, and we can get there, But finding the Gray, finding
14:06
that middle ground and really balancing and soothing that
14:09
critical part of us with, you know, kind of another part of us
14:12
that might be trying to protect something else like our peace
14:16
and referring to things that we are doing correctly or that we
14:19
have gotten through and that we're not supposed to get
14:22
through everything gracefully. That's not the way life works.
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I think it's super important, like especially the one of the
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last lines you should say you're not supposed to get through
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everything gracefully. Because like in on my own
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personal journey, I feel like I if I don't do it 100% correct, I
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just completely shut down and just kind of log out of it
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because I see it as a failure. Like people are going to judge
14:44
me on that one little thing. Like even though I'm talking to
14:46
you, if I'm if I stutter, I'm like strapped the whole episode,
14:51
you know, just like that's how my mind goes.
14:54
If I don't say a sentence perfectly, if I lose my words,
14:56
like my mind immediately goes into kind of self-defense attack
15:00
mode. And it's like you have to be
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perfect. Like you can't flub your words,
15:03
you can't stutter. You can't, you know, say
15:06
something wrong or do something incorrect.
15:08
Just even my own inner critic, like based on society's
15:11
standards and whatnot, I will beat myself to death about that.
15:15
And I'm just like, how do you battle some?
15:17
How do you deal with that right there?
15:18
It's like that, this, that own internal, personal battle.
15:22
They're like, I know not just I experienced, but a lot of people
15:25
experience right there when you are wired to try to be a
15:28
perfectionist and that you do fail or you don't do something
15:32
perfectly. How do you battle that right
15:33
there? Yeah.
15:35
Oh, I'm sure as you're talking, so many people are like, yes, I
15:37
can completely relate to that. And it is, it's really thinking
15:41
about that inner critic, if you will.
15:43
Like there's a lack of trust, there's a lack of trust with
15:47
that protected part of us that we're going to be able to
15:49
recover. It's all about recovery, right?
15:52
So it's about, I mean, we know if we really think logically, if
15:56
we're entering, you know, if we're doing something like
15:58
we're, you know, playing soccer or we're doing a sport or we're
16:01
doing something where it's like this is kind of based on
16:04
mistakes and capitalizing on other people's mistakes.
16:06
And we're not going to be perfect with everything.
16:08
We know these things logically. Even going into a podcast, we're
16:10
going to fumble on our words every now and again.
16:12
Like logically we kind of know that, but I think it's the
16:16
emotional part. It's the inner critic within us
16:18
that really is doubting that we're going to be able to
16:20
recover. That if we fumble on our words,
16:23
if we don't get our point across perfectly, if we, you know,
16:26
fumble the ball, if we do XY or Z, that wasn't according to
16:29
plan. That part of us is scared
16:31
shitless that we are not going to be able to recover.
16:35
And I think that's the part right there.
16:37
It's not about executing perfectly.
16:40
It's about knowing and believing and getting the repetitions in
16:43
and the self talk to acknowledge that I have the ability when I
16:47
fumble, when I mess up, when I misstep, that I'm going to be
16:51
able to recover. And that's resilience right
16:53
there. So that's what I actually have
16:55
to do now. Right now, focusing my breath
16:58
work. I'll take a deep breath and just
16:59
like it's not the end of the world, I have to repeat this
17:02
kind of my internal mantras and things like that.
17:05
It's like not the end of the world.
17:07
And also when I do mess up and then I correct it, I just kind
17:13
of have to validate myself. I kind of have to pat myself on
17:15
the back and just like, good job, you know, it's not the end
17:18
of the world that way. Like for the for future
17:20
reference, I like remember this happened and you conquered it or
17:23
you got past it. It's just like I have to have
17:26
this internal dialogue with myself to validate myself.
17:29
You know, like, like you said, like get get your reps in.
17:32
The repetition has helped out a lot of my, you know, my own
17:36
personal growth and mental health journey flight.
17:38
My therapist has helped helped me out with that a lot as well,
17:42
which leading to my next question.
17:43
What led you to becoming a psychotherapist?
17:47
Gosh, a number of things. But I think my mom is a
17:52
psychotherapist, so I kind of was watching her as I was
17:55
growing up. She was kind of doing her final
17:58
grad school years and her practicum.
18:00
So I was watching my mother kind of go through all that as I was
18:02
growing up. And I've just always been
18:04
fascinated with people's stories.
18:07
And I've felt like it's such a privilege when you know, you're
18:10
able to createspace for someone and they're able to externally
18:13
process or be vulnerable or, you know, really trust you to help
18:17
them kind of figure out something, you know, and just
18:21
collaborate on something. So I've just been fascinated by
18:23
that. And I also myself, you know, I
18:26
dealt with a lot of performance anxiety as an athlete and, and
18:30
really kind of, I just have a, really a soft spot for people,
18:35
not only athletes, but people that do, they kind of are just
18:37
entrapped in that black or white thinking that all or nothing
18:40
thinking because it is, it's pretty debilitating.
18:42
And you have these big goals and you have these, you know, the,
18:45
you can, you know, you can get there, you've done it, you've
18:47
proven it to yourself. But it's about that execution,
18:50
whether it's on the field or in the boardroom or just even in
18:52
conversations with people. So I also love the variety of
18:56
it, Like I love the variety that this field is already, you know,
19:00
I've had the privilege of like engaging in.
19:02
So whether that's just private practice or working overseas or
19:06
working with juvenile court or with educators or grief and
19:09
loss, like I just love the variety that it provides too.
19:12
So it's been such a such an amazing journey so far.
19:16
Hey, I, I love that and I'm glad you mentioned the performance
19:20
anxiety part of it as well. So what are some techniques to
19:23
deal with performance anxiety? Like I know I have my, my, my
19:26
breath and stuff like that. I'll just kind of take my breath
19:28
and hold it for a few seconds and it kind of allows space to,
19:32
for things to come down a little bit.
19:34
It's kind of like letting, letting a little bit of the
19:36
water out, like the water level just sinks a little bit, you
19:39
know, and it helps me be able to move forward and not be
19:42
stationary or just freeze. So what are some techniques to
19:45
to deal with that? Yeah, and that's amazing.
19:48
And I'm I bet too, you've really, you know, with breath,
19:50
you have to get your reps in with that too.
19:52
Like sometimes out of the gate, it's like when people are like
19:54
just breathe, you're like, oh hell no, that's not going to do
19:55
anything. You know, you have to really
19:57
practice it and almost like get in shape with that and kind of
20:00
build that trust that that is a way.
20:03
And that's like a something that you can do to soothe.
20:05
So that's that's amazing. And that's I share that because
20:08
a lot of times, you know, people will say, you know, just
20:10
breathe. That's not going to work, and it
20:12
may not the first time. Just like if you have never ran
20:15
a day in your life and you try to go out and run a marathon,
20:17
it's not going to work the first time.
20:18
Like you have to train, you have to get those reps in and breath
20:22
work is is amazing with that. And I think the biggest thing
20:25
that I would share is, you know, for me especially, you know,
20:29
growing up and even specifically as an athlete, and I work with a
20:32
lot of athletes now who are told when they're suffering from kind
20:35
of performance anxiety or just that fierce inner critic that
20:39
people are telling them, like, just don't worry about it.
20:42
Just smile. Just play harder.
20:45
Just distract yourself. Just listen to good music just
20:48
before the game. Just do this and that.
20:49
So it's really this kind of Band-Aid approach of like, just
20:53
put a Band-Aid on it or just distract yourself.
20:56
And that all sounds good. You know, an hour or two before
20:59
they came, you're like, oh, yeah, I can do that.
21:01
Yeah, that sounds good. But then when it's time to
21:02
execute it and you're in that situation, oh, I mean, all the
21:05
floodgates are open. And it's like those things that,
21:08
you know, you wish you could just not think about it.
21:10
That doesn't work, right? And so it's really, I think
21:13
reframing and thinking about like we were talking about
21:15
before, like those are protected parts.
21:18
Those are bodyguards coming into play and working too hard and
21:21
kind of sharing the what ifs and this fear of failure and kind of
21:24
driving you by fear. And it's really understanding
21:28
and almost anticipating that these parts are probably going
21:30
to show up. They will, they get, you know,
21:33
less loud maybe as time goes on. But they're showing up because
21:35
you care about this, you're passionate about this, You're
21:38
stepping into something, whether it's a meeting or a game or
21:41
whatever that's a little unknown, right?
21:44
And you have to perform. And so it's acknowledging and
21:47
validating that. And I think now, even when I
21:50
speak or when I do something, my critic is there and she's quite
21:54
loud sometimes. And instead of like, just
21:56
distracting myself for being like, what the heck's wrong with
21:58
me? I think now I've learned to just
22:01
almost welcome that part of me and just be like, hey, you know,
22:03
I thought you'd show up. Thanks for being here.
22:06
We signed up for this. And we've done this before.
22:09
And we're generally nervous the first few minutes.
22:11
We have the adrenaline pump, and we care about this, but we'd
22:13
like to do this. This is something that is not
22:15
life or death. And so if you could stick around
22:17
because I need you, you're a good team member, but also move
22:20
over because we got other team members that need to play too.
22:22
And so I think I'm inviting you to talk to yourself.
22:25
I'm inviting you to like, engage and soothe that part of yourself
22:28
rather than distract and put a Band-Aid on it.
22:30
Because when we do that, those parts get creative, those parts
22:33
get louder and they visit us at times of the day or night when
22:36
we want to access peace and presence.
22:38
And it's frustrating. Yeah, it absolutely can because
22:43
that performance, like I even have performance anxiety before
22:46
I go into therapy session. Like I used to be so super
22:50
nervous. I like my heartbeat racing and
22:52
everything's going through my head.
22:53
And like, what if the therapist judges me?
22:55
What judges me? What if he kicks me out of here
22:57
if I say something wrong, Right. What?
22:58
What if they see me to the insane asylum because I say
23:00
something wrong? I used to have to take a shot
23:03
before I go into therapy. I used to have to take a couple
23:05
of shots just to bring the level down.
23:07
And I got to the point I was like, this is insane.
23:09
I was like, what am I doing? This doesn't work.
23:12
So I found out like doing the breath work and things like
23:14
that. This has helped me just as much
23:16
as the couple of shots of alcohol used to.
23:20
And also I had to process what I'm actually going up against.
23:23
So like what, what am I actually facing here?
23:26
You know, is this some insurmountable beast or is it
23:29
just, you know, some somebody that I'm going to for help in
23:33
situations like that? So I have to actually validate
23:36
what is actually what I'm facing and what I'm going against in
23:39
order to just personalize it, dehumanize it and whatnot.
23:43
Not not make it seem like there's this mountain I can't
23:45
climb and whatnot as well. Because I think a lot of people
23:48
do that. They don't like you just said,
23:50
they put a Band-Aid on it or they try to bury it down deep.
23:54
And I tell people like, you're not really burying it, you're
23:57
planting it. So it's like you just said
23:58
earlier, it's going to come back out later on.
24:00
Like when you plant stuff, you might not have realized you
24:03
planted it. It's just like what, Who planted
24:05
the pumpkin over here? Like, where's these tomatoes
24:07
coming from? Like it's going to come up later
24:09
on when you're trying to go to sleep, when you're looking for
24:10
that piece, like you said, you're going to have to deal
24:13
with it sooner or later. So you'd rather deal with it
24:15
right now as opposed to battling it later on when you're trying
24:18
to look for that piece when you you like, you know, after the
24:21
performance is over, you know, I got through it.
24:23
OK, great. Now you're trying to go to sleep
24:25
and it's like, what about this happening and you stay up and
24:27
it's kind of just battling your demons before you go to sleep.
24:31
You know, it leads to other at least the more anxiety later on
24:34
because now you don't get enough rest and now you're, you know,
24:37
battling and stuff like that. So I think it's important, like
24:40
what you just said, to deal with it right now as opposed to later
24:44
on, because when it pops up later on or you can be ready to
24:47
deal with it then, you know, So I feel like that's big because I
24:50
have battled it like time and time again where I've literally
24:54
planted something and I'll be getting ready to go to bed and
24:56
then my peace being like the light is like literally a mental
25:00
light comes on. Like what's that bright light?
25:03
And it's something that I was battling earlier on that I could
25:06
have dealt with that I was just trying to push down and that tis
25:10
the heaven right there. It's a it's a wild, but my mind
25:13
is that's why I love doing therapy and I love doing the
25:17
inner work because like you say, it's, it's not, it's always
25:21
something new. It's a different battle.
25:22
It's not, it's not boring whatnot.
25:25
So I, I, I love it and I love, love using that to kind of help
25:29
other people as well, which I think I think you do too.
25:31
I think you on your own journey right now have helped out a lot
25:34
of people because you had was it 20,000 sessions, which is I, I
25:39
was like, I was trying to do the math.
25:41
I was like 20,000. I was like, goodness gracious.
25:43
And I know you've dealt with so many people in that time right
25:47
there. You know, I know you probably
25:49
you've been using that knowledge and things like that because I
25:51
was going through your site and you said you work with five
25:53
Fortune 500 companies, but also the nonprofits like, how does
25:56
that work for you? Yeah, it it is.
26:00
I mean, it's, it's a rush because it is, it's really
26:03
against almost like individual therapy.
26:06
You're really meeting the person where they're at, right?
26:08
And that's the same thing with teams and companies and
26:11
nonprofits. It's just really, it's not
26:13
scripted. It's you know, there's
26:15
tendencies, there's things that you'll see and commonalities and
26:18
patterns that, you know, sometimes as you know, just a
26:21
clinician, I'll see with with individuals kind of going
26:23
through similar things, but everybody has their own flavor.
26:26
Everybody has their own spot and things that they're that you
26:30
know their strengths and then things that are hurdles.
26:32
And I think it's really just kind of that macro level
26:34
assessment when it comes to working with teams and
26:36
organizations. So it has, it's been kind of
26:40
replicating the the privilege of being kind of that individual in
26:44
the in the intimacy of an individual therapist and kind of
26:47
expanding that to bigger groups. So is there, do you think
26:50
there's a difference between working with the Fortune 500
26:52
companies and the nonprofits? Is there a difference between
26:55
those or just like similar mindsets and just different
26:57
scales or whatnot? You know, it's very different, I
27:00
think, and again, it's every, you know, every company, every
27:03
team has their their own individual again, recipe,
27:06
flavour, what have you. But I think just the bigger
27:09
companies seem to have just more access to resources, right?
27:13
More funding, more layers, more things to to delegate.
27:18
There's always like two people behind a task.
27:20
And I feel like with the nonprofit, it's just been such a
27:23
hard, hard cash for a long time, just a hard setup because
27:28
resources are low. Burnout is very prevalent in
27:31
such different ways. And, you know, pay is low and
27:34
kind of that talk about fear center pleasers and fear center
27:38
rescuers. I mean, people tend to be in the
27:40
nonprofit sector have just huge amounts of empathy and
27:42
compassion. And so they're very prone to
27:45
serial fixing and overextending and and just taking care of
27:49
everyone else and not leaving enough space for themselves.
27:51
So there are some similarities, but I think the setups of both
27:55
of those things are just vastly different.
27:57
All right. Thanks for sharing it.
27:59
I'm glad you mentioned burnout, though, because that's one of my
28:01
questions that I had right there.
28:03
Like you said, a lot of people in the nonprofit sector
28:06
experience burnout. I'm pretty sure the people in
28:08
Fortune 500 companies experienced it as well.
28:10
What are some methods for managing that burnout?
28:13
Yeah, You know, it is, I mean, it's it's it's rampant.
28:16
It's it's kind of everywhere. And I do think a lot of it is
28:19
just, I've just seen this pattern and again, guilty of it.
28:23
I'm guilty of it too, is that we are like capitalizing, trying to
28:27
capitalize on every crack and crevice and pause and transition
28:30
in our day with like something productive.
28:33
And what I mean by that is like you think about transitioning
28:36
from one physical location to another, from hell, even one
28:39
room in your house or apartment to another.
28:41
And it's like, we are then like, oh, let me check my e-mail, let
28:44
me do this. Let me see if there's a NEWS
28:45
UPDATE. Let me see this, let me do that.
28:47
Like we're constantly multitasking and consuming
28:51
because I think it's feeding that part of our brain that's
28:53
like, you better be productive. You better get all this done so
28:55
that you can relax later. And then when it comes to
28:57
relaxing, we don't have to do that.
28:59
We don't know how we're out of shape when it comes to just like
29:01
being present that we have to kind of pacify ourselves with
29:04
more. And so I think it's just this
29:06
constant consuming, constant, you know, surplus of information
29:11
and, and multitasking that you can see where that is exhausting
29:15
to even just say and think about now.
29:18
And you know, I, I really tried to, to tell people that when it
29:22
comes to self-care, if you would just capitalize on even like 1/4
29:28
of your transitions during the day.
29:30
Again, whether that's just moving from one room to the next
29:33
one location, being in your car, transitioning roles,
29:36
conversations, whatever it is, if you would use those and view
29:39
those as micro resets and just time that you can take that deep
29:44
breath that you can tap into your 5 senses and think, what do
29:47
I see? What do I hear?
29:48
What's around me? How's the day looking?
29:50
Where am I at? Doing a body scan, just like
29:53
being present for 30 seconds or three minutes, that starts to
29:56
almost clear proactively our internal clutter so that our
30:00
brains and bodies are not left to all that at 2:00 AM.
30:03
You know, when we're up in the night thinking about all this
30:05
stuff that we're like, seriously.
30:07
And so I think it's that it's training ourselves and we're at
30:10
stoplights to just look around rather than pull out our phone
30:13
and see if someone message us in the last 30 seconds and taking
30:16
those opportunities to clear our own clutter.
30:19
That is tremendously effective when it comes to burnout
30:21
prevention and self-care and just managing our stress and
30:25
self connection. So that that, that it sounds
30:29
sound like exactly what I do because right now, like even in
30:31
my office right now, I have to disconnect because I feel like
30:35
I'm burning out sometimes. So I have my I bought this
30:37
little timer off from Amazon. So I'll put my put everything on
30:40
do not disturb. I'll take my Apple Watch off.
30:43
So I don't get, you know, sometimes I'm meditating that'll
30:46
throw you off. So I'll set my little timer
30:48
right here for like 10 minutes and I just disconnect and
30:52
whatnot just to be able to just, you know, breathe and just kind
30:55
of analyze and things like that. Because we are, I think society
30:59
is so connected to our phones and things like that and
31:02
information and it just, it's just hard to do that.
31:05
So is that what a micro reset is?
31:07
I heard you mention that and whatnot.
31:09
So micro resets help you with the burnouts, right?
31:12
Absolutely. And it is, I mean, I think, you
31:15
know, as humans, when we feel most alive is like when we're
31:17
present and even if it's hard stuff, you know, but we are
31:21
actually able to be in the space, be with the person, be
31:25
with the situation and not just have all this internal chatter
31:29
that's not necessarily focused on the here and now.
31:32
I mean, I think so many of us are out of shape with that.
31:34
You know, it's just, it seems like this foreign thing and you
31:37
can see where that's so taxing on the brain.
31:40
And so it is, it's kind of practicing and getting reps in
31:44
with just like you said, setting these boundaries and just being
31:48
present with one thing at a time.
31:50
We can't do that all the time. But when we do have control over
31:53
that, really capitalizing on that, it's so good for the brain
31:57
to maintain that focus and to get things done from start to
32:01
finish. And I just don't feel like
32:03
people were getting enough of that.
32:04
And we're all over the map, we're all over the place and
32:06
there's things that are left open-ended or we're distracted
32:08
or we have to do this. And it's just creating this like
32:11
high urgent state that is really hard to come down from.
32:16
So when you said focusing one thing, my mind immediately
32:19
jumped to like the the phrase you can't chase 2 rabbits and
32:23
whatnot because so many people are trying to do multitasking,
32:26
do so many things at once. But when I kind of like not like
32:30
I said and like chasing 2 rabbits, you, you can't focus
32:34
on, you can't give your full attention to multiple things.
32:37
You know, it's almost impossible to do that.
32:38
And I feel like that can also lead to burnout and could
32:42
require you to find ways to micro reset or just to kind of,
32:45
you know, set those healthy boundaries not only on other
32:48
people, but within yourself as well, right?
32:51
So how can someone build those healthy boundaries that you that
32:55
you bought that you mentioned? I do, I mean, I think too, just
32:59
if you take nothing away, think about like how can I capitalize
33:02
and kind of view a few of my transitions throughout the day
33:04
as micro resets? How can I practice and get in
33:07
shape with like just being with me, just being present, just
33:11
being with the person. And you'll learn pretty quick
33:13
like where your deficits are, like where you need to get in
33:15
shape with that, You know, like if you're like, I can't focus on
33:17
anything, it's like, OK, that's all right.
33:19
Like get some practice with it. So I think that's one of the big
33:23
things. And I, I would also suggest,
33:25
like a lot of people love this framework of kind of like
33:28
looking at your day with bookends, you know, kind of
33:30
having an AM bookend and APM bookend where you start your day
33:34
with something that is for you, where you're not multitasking.
33:37
And this can mean a number of things.
33:39
This could be a workout, this could be a meditation prayer.
33:42
This could be like cuddling with your dog.
33:44
This could be having your coffee without checking your e-mail and
33:47
like packing your lunch and doing 80 other things.
33:50
Like this is something that is for you that you are present
33:53
with that you view as like something thing that is
33:56
preparing your mind, body and soul for the day and you're
33:59
giving yourself the privilege of engaging with it.
34:03
And then, you know, kind of having something in the in the
34:05
evening that's yours as well. And it really confirms that like
34:08
between these two bookends is your day, which can sometimes be
34:11
chaotic and unknown and very bumpy, but we get through it and
34:15
sometimes not gracefully, but we get through it.
34:17
And there's some other bookend, there's APM bookend waiting for
34:20
us on the other side of it. And that's the time maybe to
34:22
validate like, whoa, that was a lot.
34:25
I got through it. I wish I could that I would do
34:26
over, but I didn't. But I got through it like I've
34:28
got through all the other days and I never have to do that day
34:30
again or it's just like I kicked ass.
34:33
Like that was great. And so it's like having these
34:35
moments that are carved out for you and it's taking things that
34:39
you might already do in your day and just simplifying them and
34:43
viewing them and really be building this association with
34:46
like this is mine. This is predictable.
34:49
I benefit from this and that's huge.
34:51
Those are huge. Yeah, that that is absolutely
34:54
huge. I think it's super important
34:56
what you mentioned as well about being present.
34:59
I think so many people lack that, you know, just they lack
35:02
the presence just in the world because it's so easy to not be
35:05
present. Like, well, I think, I think I
35:07
hit the term doom scrolling the other day where people just get
35:10
you just get on TikTok or something like that and you're
35:12
like, huh, why is it dark outside?
35:16
You've been sitting there for like hours on you.
35:17
You've been sitting there for hours and not realizing that
35:19
life is passing you by. And that could be frustrating as
35:22
well. That's one of those things that
35:23
happens to me. I'll I'll try to be present in
35:26
the moment, but I'm like, OK, let me take a break real quick.
35:28
Let me, let me micro reset, Let me chill for a minute and I'll
35:32
find myself scrolling and then I'll like, Oh, I took, I've been
35:35
scrolling for too long. Now I've now I'm angry at myself
35:38
now because now I'm not perfect. So now I'm mad at myself.
35:41
So now I'm shutting down because I messed up.
35:44
You say I'm just that being present, having those bookings,
35:49
those bookends are important because I, I find myself doing
35:51
it all, like literally all the time, you know, but I'm in the
35:55
space right now because I've done so much work where I can, I
35:58
understand and I'm, I try, it's impossible sometimes.
36:01
Like I try not to be so hard on myself because I feel like if I,
36:05
you know, I call it an emotional black eye.
36:06
If I beat myself up, I give myself an emotional black eye.
36:09
And it's hard for me to see what's actually going on
36:11
realistically, you know? So I've had to kind of work on
36:15
that on my own, just being present, but not beating myself
36:18
up, not hammering away at myself.
36:20
And I think that's really, really important as people keep
36:24
moving forward. And I saw in your site, too, you
36:27
mentioned a lot about emotional intelligence.
36:29
How's that important? And not only what you do just in
36:32
the world in general? Yeah.
36:35
I mean, again, emotional intelligence can take a lot of
36:37
forms, but I do think it is that ability to be present and that
36:41
ability to kind of understand what's going on around you, how
36:45
people might be responding to you or their situation.
36:49
Also like meeting people where they're at.
36:52
And that's the biggest thing I think I, I really do a lot of
36:55
trainings on, you know, giving feedback, receiving feedback,
36:58
communication. And so much of us, you know,
37:01
especially in leadership positions or just even in
37:04
parental positions or, you know, positions that we roles in life
37:07
where we're trying to lead or nurture or empower.
37:11
Like so many of us are jumping in to fix and solve too
37:14
prematurely. And we're going into this like
37:16
problem solving. Let me take ownership of this.
37:18
Let me untangle this for you and give it back to you all neatly
37:21
packaged. And now you execute.
37:23
And we know as well as, I mean, gosh, you know, as well as I do
37:26
like repeatedly to someone and they won't execute it unless
37:31
they have their own flavour with it, unless they have their
37:33
ownership with it. And so I think, you know, EQ
37:37
and, and emotional intelligence is also knowing like when to
37:42
pause and how to be in that supporter role versus that
37:45
solver role and let people get their own reps in and empower
37:49
and lead with empathy. But so many of us are just
37:52
serial fixing left and right. And it's not only exhausting us,
37:55
but it's creating kind of these codependencies.
37:58
And I think almost neglecting and omitting the opportunity for
38:01
people that we work with, that we parent, that we are partners
38:04
with to get their own reps in and build that self trust with
38:07
within, Yeah, I think there's like you.
38:11
Said a lot of good things right there.
38:13
I think everything you just said is, is extremely important right
38:17
there. And I think this is like a lot
38:19
of people get into these spaces and whatnot where we lack
38:23
emotional intelligence. Like me specifically, you know,
38:26
I think because of things that happen in childhood and just
38:29
trauma reactions and things of that nature.
38:33
I'm, I'm 40 years old physically, but emotionally I
38:37
was probably like 10 or 11 years old, right?
38:39
I've had to work on building that emotional intelligence and
38:42
then emotional understanding throughout the years of therapy
38:45
and just not even outside of therapy, right?
38:47
Just learn how to manage my own behaviors and my own actions and
38:50
my own thoughts in a healthy, positive way that is not not
38:55
only not self-destructive, but not other destructive as well.
38:58
I'm not destroying other people because of my lack of emotional
39:01
intelligence, just not for self, but for other people as well, my
39:04
kids and just anybody in my environment.
39:07
And I think so many people, especially nowadays, lack that
39:10
emotional intelligence. And I think so many people have
39:12
so many different definitions of emotional intelligence.
39:15
And you mentioned EQ. What?
39:16
What is EQ? I was, I wrote that down
39:18
regardless. What is the EQ?
39:19
Yeah, kind of the abbreviation for.
39:21
Emotional intelligence, right, like your IQ, EQ, Yeah, yeah.
39:24
So it's kind of that, that slang, I guess you could say for
39:27
emotional intelligence. But you, you made a great point
39:30
too, about like, you know, just being able to really emotionally
39:34
regulate in the moment. Because I think so much of us,
39:37
we do operate on such a fast pace that we make assumptions
39:41
too quickly. You know, we, someone says
39:43
something and we're off to the races or we make an association
39:46
or make it about us or a deficit we have, or our story or what we
39:50
know about it. And that's where I think we're
39:53
missing the ball. And I, I do think it's a matter
39:56
of like, you know, just pausing and keeping ownership and, and,
40:00
and really refraining from jumping in and making
40:02
assumptions because that can be so damaging.
40:04
And I, you know, I know I use this a lot as a clinician, but I
40:07
really try to use it in other roles in my life where someone
40:09
might say something and I'm like, oh, that was that that was
40:12
a little triggering or what? Yeah.
40:14
And instead of like just shutting down or, you know,
40:17
getting defensive or just creating and filling all these
40:19
crevices and making assumptions, I've learned to, I've really
40:23
tried to practice. Like tell me more about that or
40:25
keep going. Or like can you explain that?
40:28
Keep going. Like I'm interested that right
40:29
there. I need more information.
40:31
I I don't need to leave it to my own devices with this one
40:34
sentence or one little statement for me to then fill in the gaps
40:38
because it's probably not going to end well for me or that
40:40
person or the relationship. So it is about kind of like
40:43
those statements when you feel a little ignited, it's like, how
40:47
can I pause, use my emotional intelligence and say, you tell
40:51
me more about that or like keep going.
40:52
Yeah, no, this is interesting. Or like can you explain that
40:55
differently? That gives you more right.
40:58
And that's, that's a helpful technique I think on any front
41:01
I've had to actually work. On it a lot in my, in my own
41:04
life as well, just I call it slowing myself down so I don't
41:07
give those overreactions or just the wrong reaction or the wrong
41:11
response to something because I misunderstood it or I mistook it
41:15
as criticism. You know, like somebody's saying
41:18
something to me and I take it as a personal attack.
41:20
And now I'm attacking them and they'll say something like like,
41:24
why are you so angry? I didn't, I didn't mean it that
41:25
way. Like, why would you?
41:26
Why would you take it away? Why you pop off the why you pop
41:29
off the handle, why you just go crazy?
41:31
And now I'm embarrassed. You said now I got to face the
41:33
shame of going off and overreacting because I mistook
41:36
something. So I've had to work on the art
41:38
of slowing myself down, which again, it kind of goes in those
41:41
micro resets, which again kind of works in my breath work
41:43
because I had to like, OK, let me take a deep breath before I
41:46
respond. Like, is this pride to ask
41:48
myself these internal questions? Like is this person attacking
41:50
me? Am I misunderstanding this
41:53
situation? Is this, you know, and it allows
41:56
me to come from a different place, like I said, of ownership
41:59
and just of, of accountability. So I'm not wrong, you know, I
42:02
could still be wrong, right? I'm not always going to be
42:04
right. But it's, it's helped me being
42:06
able to slow myself down in my own interpersonal relationships
42:09
and business relationships and things like that, as well as to
42:13
where I was when I was younger, super reactionary because I was
42:16
just misunderstanding things and I thought people were attacking
42:18
me. Now I'm just like, is this
42:21
person attacking me? You know, even if they are
42:24
attacking me, I don't have to respond over the top.
42:27
I can still respond in kind and just remove myself from the
42:30
situation as opposed to, you know, maybe harming my
42:33
reputation by losing, flying off the handle.
42:35
But you know, everybody put the phones out, you get recorded
42:39
saying something unnecessary and just like and things like that.
42:42
So. I feel like I've absolutely.
42:43
Absolutely had to work on the, the, the art of slowing myself
42:47
down, you know, even to a snail's pace.
42:49
Sometimes I have to tell my wife I'm like, look, if we're, if
42:54
we're, if we're having some type of healthy conflict or whatever,
42:56
like if I'm taking a little while to respond, it's not
42:59
because I'm being disrespectful. It's because I have to slow
43:01
myself down so I don't say something rude or disrespectful
43:05
to you. And now I regret it later on.
43:07
I'm like, it's, it's blown, you know, it's blown way out of
43:10
proportion. Knew what it actually should
43:13
have been or what it needed to be.
43:14
And it's kind of, it's kind of wild.
43:15
So I'm glad you said that right there.
43:19
So talk to me about the importance of caring for your
43:21
mind. Oh my gosh.
43:22
Well, it's it's just the same. As you know, caring for our
43:24
bodies, right? I mean, this is our vessel, this
43:27
is how we process information, this is how we relate.
43:31
This is how we move through the world.
43:32
And I, I think it's just, you know, thinking about our mental
43:36
and emotional well-being is, starts with kind of the
43:39
relationship we have with ourselves, right?
43:41
And really understanding kind of when those internal bodyguards
43:44
are on high alert, when we are, you know, in need of a reset or
43:48
just a break. And I think it's, you know, so
43:51
many of us are not really engaging in consistent check
43:55
insurance, like just with ourselves of just kind of taking
43:57
that little inventory or protocol of like, how am I
43:59
doing? Like what's going on?
44:01
Like how's my sleep been? How's this?
44:02
And just collecting our own data and then using that to care for
44:06
ourselves proactively. Because if not, I mean, that's
44:09
when the shit hit the hits the fan.
44:11
And that's when like our bodies and minds get frustrated and
44:14
they're like, you're not taking care of, you're not taking care
44:16
of anything here. So you're, it's left to us.
44:19
And that's when you kind of have that internal balloon pop.
44:21
That's when you have that, you know, explosion.
44:23
That's when you have that injury.
44:25
That's when you get sick. Like so I mean, that's when your
44:28
body and mind are kind of like, all right, you know, we're on
44:29
your team, but if you're not going to help us out, like we
44:31
got to clear the clutter somehow.
44:33
So it is about finding these opportunities consistently to
44:37
check in with yourself, to take care of yourself, to add
44:40
yourself to the equation. And that is self-care.
44:42
It's not all or nothing. It's not these big weekends
44:45
where you're like, yeah, spot weekend, those are great.
44:47
But it's more about the consistency and everyday
44:50
maintenance. Just like it it takes to
44:52
physically stay in shape. I think I.
44:55
I love how you said that though, about how it's not always a spa
44:58
weekend or something like that. It's like daily, that daily
45:00
maintenance that is necessary as opposed to the because I think
45:04
when people think of self-care, they do think of like those over
45:07
the top kind of grandiose things like, well, you know what, I do
45:10
need a trip, But what happens when you come back from the
45:13
trip? Well, sometimes even on the
45:14
trip, like sometimes like your problems travel, you know, they,
45:18
they, they, they, they travel and carry on their first class.
45:21
So they travel with you. So it's just like, I think that
45:23
daily maintenance is absolutely important because like I've done
45:27
it, I've been sad and try to take a trip.
45:29
Like now I'm just sad on the trip, you know, So just like,
45:32
you know, so just like, I think this is absolutely important to
45:36
handle stuff on a daily basis as opposed to kind of letting it
45:39
pile up because it absolutely will.
45:41
Like say it will hop on your carry on or into your luggage or
45:45
whatever and it will come with you or you know, it, it's, it's,
45:49
it's built up to one of those knots and a spa massage and
45:52
whatnot, like a big knot on your back, you know, Oh, your a lot
45:56
of tension here. You know, they, they, they try
45:58
to massage it out, but you can't massage out those internal
46:01
things, those, you know, the emotional stuff.
46:03
It would not. So I think that daily
46:05
maintenance is, is absolutely important.
46:08
I'm glad you said that. My mind just works in like my
46:11
mind works in like TikTok. I love it.
46:14
A doom. Scroll.
46:14
I see. I see.
46:15
Images and movies in my mind where you're talking, I was
46:17
like, oh, that, that's how it looks, you know, and that's how
46:20
my mind is. It's just, it's always moving.
46:23
This is it's very interesting and whatnot.
46:26
So talk to me a little bit about overextending yourself in
46:29
relationships. Yes.
46:31
I mean I refer to it a lot. Of as serial fixing, right?
46:34
You're constantly putting yourself in the role of the
46:36
fixer and the solver and it's, you know, kind of very, it's,
46:42
it's just challenging to kind of maintain and even notice when
46:46
you need to set those boundaries and keep the ownership with
46:49
people. So you'll kind of see maybe
46:51
those internal bodyguards like the critic or the police are
46:53
popping up and you're constantly saying yes to things.
46:56
You're constantly 2 steps ahead. You're constantly trying to fix
47:00
and solve for other people because if they're OK, then you
47:02
can be OK. And so a lot of times it looks
47:04
like compassion, but sometimes it's our own discomfort and
47:07
disguise, right? So I do, I think a lot of it is,
47:11
you know, over extension, really we got to make, we got to make
47:14
peace and we got to really be aligned with what are the
47:16
internal drivers or bodyguards that are, that are really
47:19
pushing us to fix, to solve, to overextend.
47:22
What are we trying to do here? What are we trying to please?
47:25
What are we trying to avoid? What are we trying to, you know,
47:28
what's the goal in this? And I think those types of
47:29
conversations with our ourselves really help us break some of
47:32
those patterns. Yeah, I, I, I love how you.
47:36
Said what are we trying to avoid too?
47:37
Because I think when people like say they, they hear serial
47:41
fixer, they are think about like fixing things, like dealing,
47:44
dealing with something right now, but not necessarily the
47:47
avoidance part of it. Because sometimes people are
47:49
trying to fix things and overextending themselves in
47:51
relationships because they're trying to avoid something,
47:53
whether it be a conversation, some type of conflict, breaking
47:59
up with somebody, moving on, whatever the case may be.
48:02
I think a lot of people are trying to avoid that type of
48:04
stuff right there and they end up overextending themselves and
48:07
just kind of kind of falling. It is, it is, it is wild.
48:10
Like my mind is like we said I was like, yeah, avoid.
48:14
Like especially like, say in my own life as well, avoiding
48:17
certain things can leave to me overextending in other
48:19
relationships as well. And it's just like it's it's a
48:23
it's a cycle. It can be very cyclical in these
48:26
situations to, to, for people to deal with.
48:28
Not I feel like all that kind of ties in together.
48:31
You overextend yourself. It used to burnout, you know,
48:34
and now you have the micro reset and then now you ain't, now you
48:37
ain't now you have to perform anxiety.
48:38
It's, it's all like a big cycle right there.
48:40
Do you think it kind of fits in together like that being like a
48:43
being like a cycle? It is.
48:45
It's such a. It is.
48:46
And it's not a way to like then for the listeners to be like, Oh
48:49
my God, it's too overwhelming. Where do we start?
48:51
But it's just it, it speaks to just, yeah, everything is
48:54
impacting everything else, just like, you know, physically with
48:57
our with our physical health. And so it's not again, about
49:00
perfection, but it's about understanding and collecting
49:03
some of these data, this data, these data points that our mind
49:05
and body are giving us and responding to them.
49:08
You know, if we're constantly feeling exhausted or resentful
49:11
or just like I'm working so hard to build these connections with
49:15
people and I'm feeling lonely, like, what the heck, this isn't
49:18
working. And I think those are
49:20
opportunities to really take a step back and see what roles
49:24
you're occupying, what patterns you're, you know, fueling and
49:28
really what is it preventing you or what are you avoiding
49:31
probably from within. You know, we're so productive
49:34
and have these roles kind of designed and structured
49:37
externally with people that we love, people that we lead,
49:40
people that we care for. It really kind of gives us that
49:43
boost or that checkpoint of like, see, I'm productive, see
49:46
I'm needed, see, this was good. And that keeps us kind of out of
49:51
here because this is overwhelming.
49:53
Dealing with our own stuff is overwhelming, but it's
49:55
necessary. But you can see where people
49:57
overextend and they keep themselves busy and needed
50:00
externally to just convince themselves, like, see, I'm doing
50:04
what I'm supposed to be doing, but I don't have time for this.
50:07
And that's where we get the backlash.
50:10
But again, my. Mind is is be be bouncing around
50:12
everywhere. So when you were talking and you
50:14
said hi, it can affect you physically like how things tie
50:17
in together physically. I think about the body chain and
50:19
how you like your knees connected to your elbow and all
50:21
that other stuff. It's kind of like an emotional
50:23
body chain, right? Like an emotional chain like
50:26
everything is tied into everything is tied into to get
50:31
it's tied in together. You know, if you if you mess up
50:33
with this one thing, it's going to affect something else later
50:35
on. If you don't deal with this
50:37
right now, it's going to affect something else later on.
50:39
Like if you don't deal with this emotional no conflict or this
50:42
anxiety right now, it's going to come up later on in a situation
50:45
where it's not is could hamper you or could hinder you, could
50:49
make you shut down. You know, it's kind of all tied
50:51
in together. And I think this is like, I was
50:53
like, uh, you have my mind thinking I was like, all this
50:56
stuff is tied in together. It's very, it's very, very
50:58
interesting. So tell me about your book, the
51:02
serial fixer or serial fixer? Not, not the serial fixer,
51:05
serial fixer, just in general. No, thank you.
51:08
Yeah, it is. It's.
51:09
Called serial fixer break free from the habit of solving other
51:13
people's problems. And it does it kind of goes, you
51:16
know, at a deeper level of a lot of things we talked about today,
51:19
right? Kind of those internal
51:20
boundaries and self-awareness and how that impacts kind of our
51:24
relationships and our ability to take care of ourselves and set
51:27
external boundaries. And really that that role and
51:31
that kind of tendency and pattern that many of us find
51:35
ourselves in where we are looking to fix and solve and
51:38
soothe, sometimes prematurely and sometimes for a need to kind
51:41
of, you know, mask our own discomfort.
51:43
So I'm hoping that it's a good resource for people, especially
51:47
people that lead with a lot of empathy and compassion and tend
51:52
to not leave a lot for themselves.
51:55
Yeah, that, that that's. Even the, the title of it is, is
51:59
impactful and it's a serial, serial fix or break free from
52:01
the habit of solving other people's problems, which it kind
52:05
of is again, instead of sometimes we could be focused on
52:08
other people's problems because we're avoiding our own.
52:11
You're avoiding like the main thing that's going on.
52:13
So you're trying to fix everybody else's stuff.
52:15
And I think that's extremely important, especially with the
52:17
people that I deal with just in my, you know, just in my against
52:20
my niche of, you know, dealing with victims of domestic
52:23
violence and narcissistic abuse, toxic emotional abuse.
52:26
I think that would be very impactful.
52:28
And you can find that on Amazon on the November the 11th.
52:31
It's coming out or everywhere. It is coming out everywhere.
52:33
I've seen you can pre-order it now, but it's coming out
52:36
everywhere. So I will definitely be reading
52:38
that. I'm super interested.
52:39
And I was like, wait, other people's problems because I
52:42
learned about this type of stuff.
52:43
I use that to help other people as well.
52:45
You know, I was just like once a while.
52:46
I seriously enjoy talking to you today and getting that viewpoint
52:50
and whatnot. And you also have a a TE DX
52:53
coming up as well. Can you share anything about
52:56
that coming up? I do.
52:57
I have a TE DX coming up in. Charlotte on November 8th, right
53:00
before the book launches the week after.
53:02
And it is, of course, it's about serial fixing, right?
53:06
And in the subtitle for that is what people are really avoiding
53:09
in relationships. And so, yeah, I mean, as you can
53:12
see, I'm all about the serial fixer trainer right now and just
53:14
really educating people and giving people a framework to
53:17
work with and improve their relationships with others,
53:20
including themselves. So yeah, that's that's kind of
53:23
where I'm at right now. Hey, what so?
53:27
What are people avoiding in relationships?
53:30
Just thought, just thought I thought of my head, just you
53:32
don't have to go into great detail.
53:34
What do you feel like that one of the main things is that
53:36
people are avoiding in relationships?
53:38
I think it's like, I mean again, like.
53:40
Most, most of us as humans, it's that discomfort, it's that kind
53:43
of that going into a very vulnerable and intimate, you
53:47
know, level and feeling like you're not going to be able to
53:49
execute, feeling like if you open yourself up that that then
53:53
is going to go away, you know, and not having that confidence
53:56
sometimes in self trust that you can kind of get to those levels.
54:01
And so again, it's like overextending 0 fixing doing XY
54:04
and Z and if everybody else is OK, then I can be OK.
54:07
And it's really avoiding, I think the real true internal
54:09
work and vulnerability and intimacy that sometimes is
54:12
really necessary to establish those true connections that I
54:15
think most of us are after. Well, thank you so much for
54:19
sharing it. I know a lot of people will have
54:21
a lot of different like opinions on than what people are avoiding
54:25
in relationships, but nobody doesn't mean anybody is wrong in
54:27
that situation right there. But I think what you just said
54:29
is, is super powerful because I typically deal with people that
54:33
are in toxic relationship dynamics and people, you know,
54:36
who have similar mentality as myself.
54:38
And I tend to ask him, well, what are you running away from?
54:40
You know, what, what, what is this?
54:41
You know, what is the actual issue right here?
54:43
What what is the actual problem? You know, I talked to a woman
54:46
earlier today and she was just, you know, her problem was she
54:50
just didn't want to deal with the shame that she was facing if
54:52
she left the relationship, you know, so she was trying to
54:54
overextend herself to make it work and trying to avoid certain
54:58
things and getting cheated on all kinds of stuff.
55:01
And I was just like, so is there anything you want else we want
55:05
to share with, with the folks and whatnot with the audience?
55:08
Because I've, I've had a great conversation with you.
55:10
I appreciate the this perspective.
55:11
I was like, you've got my, my wheels turned out.
55:13
It's been taking notes. I'm like, oh, I love it.
55:16
I love it. No, it's been really fun.
55:18
It's been really fun. I flew by.
55:20
No, I think if people would love to connect with me, I mean, I'm,
55:24
I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, I'm on YouTube.
55:26
I'm I'm just kind of on a lot of the social platforms if you want
55:29
to connect. And then of course, if you do
55:31
order, get the book. I'd love to hear what you think.
55:33
I hope it's helpful. I mean, really my main goal is
55:35
to just generate more self-awareness.
55:37
So feel free to reach out and connect with me and I'd love
55:40
your feedback. And yeah, I just, I really
55:43
appreciate the opportunity and having me on.
55:46
No, thank you so much for coming on.
55:47
I'll. I'll link all your sites and
55:49
whatnot in the book and all the other good stuff as well.
55:51
You can find more from leah@leahmarone.com.
55:54
It's her website. Leah Marone, LCSWL Instagram is
55:58
there that and this was right. Yeah, you're good.
56:03
OK. That's what I was.
56:04
I was like licensing. I was like, I was like, I don't
56:07
want to flub. I'll beat myself up since I hop
56:09
off the camera. Recover.
56:10
You're recovering beautifully. All right.
56:13
Thank you. So much for hopping on with me
56:14
and sharing this with me today. I truly appreciate you coming
56:16
out here. And I've had a very, you know,
56:19
my mind is turning. I was like, my mind is just the
56:21
wheels are turning. I will be getting your book and
56:23
reading your book and whatnot. You'll see a review from Lee on
56:25
there. So I appreciate appreciate you
56:27
coming out and sharing with us. Thank you so much and we will
56:30
chat later. Thanks.