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When Preaching Outlines Go from Helpful to Hazardous with Eric Attinger · Ministry Minded

0:16
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry-Minded Podcast,
0:19
SPEAKER_00: a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us in our messy ministries.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm of course your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: I serve as the senior pastor here at Stonington Baptist Church in Pax Sinus, Pennsylvania.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: And I'm so excited to share another installment of conversations that my assistant pastor,
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Pastor Eric Adinger,
0:38
SPEAKER_00: and I have been able to have about the nature of preaching in pastoral ministry.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Once again,
0:44
SPEAKER_00: in this episode,
0:45
SPEAKER_00: we're going to dive into a particular topic that you might not think at first is as
0:49
SPEAKER_00: deep as what we could make of it.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: And namely, that is the idea of preaching outlines.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: What is the point of a preacher using an outline in order to convey or communicate his message?
1:04
SPEAKER_00: And also, we try to answer and we try to investigate questions.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: what is the nature of preaching outlines and what purpose do they serve?
1:12
SPEAKER_00: We talk about this from a lot of different angles,
1:14
SPEAKER_00: but what we're trying to do is convey the fact that really there's,
1:18
SPEAKER_00: even though there's a lot of talk and there's a lot of rhetoric about what makes
1:23
SPEAKER_00: for a good preaching outline,
1:25
SPEAKER_00: what we want to convey is the fact that what a pastor's job is,
1:30
SPEAKER_00: what a preacher's job is,
1:31
SPEAKER_00: is to convey the heart of
1:34
SPEAKER_00: of the message of scripture to his congregation, to his flock.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: And really just an outline is a way for the preacher to understand that message.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: And so,
1:44
SPEAKER_00: while it may not be something that's conveyed explicitly or throughout the course
1:49
SPEAKER_00: of his sermon,
1:50
SPEAKER_00: it is something that is helpful.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: So, we talk about how helpful that is and some of the ways in which the preaching outlines have been
1:57
SPEAKER_00: used in distracting ways or used in ways that actually don't really help the
2:02
SPEAKER_00: congregation in ways that they can understand and receive the Word of God with
2:09
SPEAKER_00: discernment or in faith and help them as they grow in their walk with the Lord.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: So,
2:14
SPEAKER_00: we talk a lot about that,
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SPEAKER_00: and especially as it relates to sermon preparation and how to balance,
2:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
2:20
SPEAKER_00: trusting in your,
2:22
SPEAKER_00: for pastors,
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SPEAKER_00: especially for preachers,
2:24
SPEAKER_00: especially Bible teachers,
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SPEAKER_00: how to balance
2:27
SPEAKER_00: trusting in your preparation and your sermon outline and your sermon notes versus
2:32
SPEAKER_00: trusting in the Holy Spirit to fill you with his words.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: So, we talk a lot about that and why that's so important for the health of the church.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: So, I hope you're blessed by this episode.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: This is going to be just another great conversation.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: It's always fun to sit down with Pastor Eric
2:48
SPEAKER_00: and riff about the ministry, and this is no exception to that.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: So, enjoy this conversation, sit back and relax, and I hope that you are blessed by this discussion.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: All right,
2:59
SPEAKER_00: so one of the things that I think makes preaching so divergent is just the idea of
3:07
SPEAKER_00: – and we're going to get a little bit practical in this conversation.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: It's just the notion of preaching outlines are like – there's so much variance in terms of –
3:19
SPEAKER_00: how a sermon can be prepared, but also how it can be delivered.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: But then also you could even extend it even further,
3:27
SPEAKER_00: how that sermon could be received by a particular congregation or whatever,
3:30
SPEAKER_00: and venue and age and all that kind of stuff makes a lot of differences.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: But I think what's worth,
3:36
SPEAKER_00: I think,
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SPEAKER_00: talking about is how you outline a sermon,
3:41
SPEAKER_00: just because I think there's this...
3:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, maybe you're familiar with this in the Baptist circles especially.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: Like there's this notion of you got to have three points and they have to rhyme or
3:53
SPEAKER_00: they have to elaborate or whatever.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: And like let's just –
3:59
SPEAKER_00: Is that necessary?
4:00
SPEAKER_00: How important should an aspiring preacher...
4:06
SPEAKER_00: How much importance should he put on this outline that's so meticulously crafted?
4:13
SPEAKER_00: Is that something that he should be losing sleep over, or...
4:18
SPEAKER_00: How ancillary is that to his sermon?
4:21
SPEAKER_01: That's a really great question, and there's a lot of factors that go into it.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: And I do always like to tell people,
4:26
SPEAKER_01: obviously there's not a one-stop shop,
4:28
SPEAKER_01: one way to write a sermon by any means.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: There are wrong ways that we've been talking about here,
4:34
SPEAKER_01: just how you can get so out of balance or whatever.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: But I know the three-point sermon is a huge one.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: You've got to have these points and these sub-points.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: I know where that comes from.
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SPEAKER_01: That comes from the concept of how the human mind works and how,
4:47
SPEAKER_01: I guess maybe more like a Western approach,
4:49
SPEAKER_01: how when you read Greek and Roman stuff and how it always had this kind of a setup.
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SPEAKER_01: So in that point,
4:55
SPEAKER_01: I know where that comes from because it is almost like a nice,
4:57
SPEAKER_01: tight,
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SPEAKER_01: clean package that everybody's used to reading.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of when I was looking at my honors English classes and you always had to have...
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SPEAKER_01: an opening, a body with three paragraphs, and a conclusion.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: It was a five-paragraph essay with the standard,
5:10
SPEAKER_01: and it almost gets burnt into your memory and burnt into your brain where these
5:13
SPEAKER_01: kind of things get carried out.
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SPEAKER_01: It can be helpful.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: I think it can be really helpful.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: But I don't get so hung up on does it need three,
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SPEAKER_01: does it need five,
5:21
SPEAKER_01: or how is it going to be because everybody's different.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: And you even talked about how it will be received based on your audience.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: Some audiences might not do well,
5:29
SPEAKER_01: depending on who you're talking to,
5:31
SPEAKER_01: what age groups,
5:32
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
5:33
SPEAKER_01: older,
5:33
SPEAKER_01: younger,
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SPEAKER_01: and who you have there.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: So you've got to take a lot of things into effect here.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: I think it is good, obviously, to have structure.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm a writer, and it's funny because I'm an improv guy, actually.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: Even with music and speaking, I'm a debate guy.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: I can think on my feet really fast, so I'm very improv.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: However,
5:50
SPEAKER_01: I have strengths in writing,
5:51
SPEAKER_01: and I can tell when I'm riffing or improv-ing answers versus when I've written something.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be a lot cleaner.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: My other one's going to be a lot more free-form,
6:01
SPEAKER_01: maybe a little bit more humor in it,
6:02
SPEAKER_01: but it's also going to be almost like stream of consciousness in a way sometimes.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: You might have to go on a roller coaster ride where a sermon,
6:10
SPEAKER_01: you don't want so much of that,
6:12
SPEAKER_01: unless you're doing some special Q&A,
6:13
SPEAKER_01: which isn't a sermon then.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: Because a sermon,
6:15
SPEAKER_01: it's nice to have these things because it does kind of keep you,
6:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:19
SPEAKER_01: kind of cool comment collected and making sure that it's a good,
6:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:24
SPEAKER_01: compact thoughts and comprehensive.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's really important there to have some structure, especially when you're doing a sermon.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: So that's where it does come in.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: But how strict you got to keep to it is a whole other thing.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: You know,
6:36
SPEAKER_01: I actually so when I like,
6:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:39
SPEAKER_01: like Wednesday nights when I'm doing we're doing question answer,
6:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm just riffing with no with no any notes at all.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Then on a Sunday sermon,
6:45
SPEAKER_01: like even people that write their sermon notes,
6:47
SPEAKER_01: which I think everybody writes ours out and we kind of craft it for that flow and stuff.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: I think even everybody's different.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: I had a friend,
6:53
SPEAKER_01: my last church,
6:54
SPEAKER_01: one of the elders that we teach,
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SPEAKER_01: he was very notes-based and actually didn't lift his eyes from the letter of the law.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: He did it in a speaking form,
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SPEAKER_01: but if he sent me his notes,
7:03
SPEAKER_01: it was like word for word,
7:04
SPEAKER_01: which helped him keep him eloquent,
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SPEAKER_01: kept him in structure,
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SPEAKER_01: and you could see it was a polished thing.
7:09
SPEAKER_01: My notes will keep me almost in a guide realm.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: I think it just depends how you are.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm such an improv guy, if I sent you my sermon notes, only 70% would be accurate.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: I actually might skip 30%, and there might be things that you're like, you didn't write that in there.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: I think it just might be because of my style,
7:22
SPEAKER_01: and I also try to leave a little bit of openness for the Holy Spirit,
7:26
SPEAKER_01: because sometimes my other buddy had these really good
7:29
SPEAKER_01: things and he'd pray about it with the Holy Spirit but ahead of time and he said
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SPEAKER_01: this is how I do it like that's fine but I also in my way like to leave room
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SPEAKER_01: because you know the Holy Spirit can move and act and if you get too rigid you
7:39
SPEAKER_01: almost kind of like lock them out in a way so it's that really again I always talk
7:43
SPEAKER_01: about balance the tough balance and it depends also I think on who the preacher is
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SPEAKER_01: because the real goal is to get this message across and depending on how the
7:49
SPEAKER_01: speaker speaks is really you know the big deal in
7:52
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really good point,
7:53
SPEAKER_00: though,
7:53
SPEAKER_00: because I think there is a lot of discourse about like,
7:57
SPEAKER_00: are you manuscripting?
7:59
SPEAKER_00: Are you just taking a little note card?
8:01
SPEAKER_00: Like and I think there I felt because I would align myself more like like your buddy.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: Like I have a really thorough outline that.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: really keeps me really focused.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: Because in the past,
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SPEAKER_00: I would try and do more skeletal sermon notes when I would go up and teach or whatever.
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SPEAKER_00: And then what happens is I would go on a lot more rabbit trails,
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SPEAKER_00: go on a lot more rambles that end up distracting from the main point.
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SPEAKER_00: So like my thoroughness is mainly just because I want to keep my own speech in
8:35
SPEAKER_00: check to where I don't lead someone down the wrong path to think like,
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SPEAKER_00: to get the wrong gist of a text.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: So,
8:44
SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: but in,
8:45
SPEAKER_00: in that I felt at times based on,
8:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: people talking about preaching in the past that like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: you're not a qualified or you're not an accomplished preacher unless you can preach
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SPEAKER_00: without notes or,
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SPEAKER_00: or,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: unless you can do everything that you need to do from a three by five card.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: And I, I think there is,
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SPEAKER_00: I think that's a misconstrual of what it means to preach because people have different gifts.
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SPEAKER_00: People have different personalities.
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SPEAKER_00: People have different ways of putting together an argument.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's where you get the variance in the outlines that also breeds
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SPEAKER_00: variance in sermons,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_01: Yes.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: And what's interesting is I came before I was a Bible teacher.
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SPEAKER_01: I was in the education system.
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SPEAKER_01: And one of the common things known to teachers is it didn't matter if it was a
9:38
SPEAKER_01: substitute or you had the expert teacher down the hall filling in for you.
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SPEAKER_01: They would always say, no teacher.
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SPEAKER_01: No two teachers teach the same.
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SPEAKER_01: Meaning,
9:47
SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: you could be the science teacher,
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SPEAKER_01: the chemistry teacher,
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SPEAKER_01: and there's another chemistry teacher down the hall,
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SPEAKER_01: and he comes in and he gets your notes.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not going to even work perfectly for him.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: Why?
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SPEAKER_01: Because he's a different teacher.
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SPEAKER_01: He's a different speaker with a different mind, a different kind of lingo and language.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why God made us that way.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise,
10:03
SPEAKER_01: we'd all have,
10:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:04
SPEAKER_01: John MacArthur's or Sproul's or whoever,
10:06
SPEAKER_01: whatever we got stuck with,
10:07
SPEAKER_01: right?
10:08
SPEAKER_01: So it's nice that we have these varieties because in the same right, you have...
10:13
SPEAKER_01: different audiences yeah which is why like you and i could you know speak to the
10:17
SPEAKER_01: church here and really connect with them if we take our styles or that message to
10:21
SPEAKER_01: you know 100 other churches across america it might only hit half or less or more
10:25
SPEAKER_01: we don't know because it all depends on the audience and how they take things in
10:30
SPEAKER_01: but i do definitely think there's like i would never want somebody to think of
10:33
SPEAKER_01: themselves or greater than or lesser than because of
10:36
SPEAKER_01: If they stick to notes or they can just free,
10:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:39
SPEAKER_01: do it off their minds because I am with you there.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Like there's times I do it both ways.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: Actually, I don't do it on purpose, but like Sundays I have those.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: If I do a Sunday sermon in the morning or or even Sunday school.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have a pretty good standard.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: My slideshow becomes my notes then, which keeps me in line there.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: But then I'll do Sunday nights where I'll just read.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: And then because I'm staying in this one chapter, I'll just go.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: I read the chapter so much I was ingrained.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: I'll just go up there and talk.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: And I actually don't have notes on Sunday night at all.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: So I try both.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: But you can.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are definitely times.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: I don't go back and watch them or anything, but I'm sure there's times when I don't use notes at all.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: I might go off these trails, and I'm following things, and it could be really helpful to people.
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SPEAKER_01: Sometimes when I go off on those trails, it elaborates more.
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SPEAKER_01: But some people might be in the crowd thinking, oh, Eric, could you just stick to the point?
11:23
SPEAKER_01: Because now you're getting over here, and I'm kind of going wherever.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: So I just think it's all dependent on the preacher and how their style is and the
11:31
SPEAKER_01: teacher and how it works for them.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: If it keeps you more polished,
11:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
11:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't think too many people can complain about a polished sermon,
11:40
SPEAKER_01: I would think.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: A concise, clear message would be hard to complain about.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a good thing if that works.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: If somebody's an improv more guy like me, I think that works too.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: As long as, you know, the main message is getting through to the congregation and they're absorbing it.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: But then even then, I think I actually just ironically read a stat this morning.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: I think Kerry Newhoff said something like 40% of pastors in America on Sundays...
12:03
SPEAKER_01: are concerned that their audience isn't getting it of what they're talking about.
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SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have time to read the article further.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: It was actually going to break it down.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: I just saw that headline, and it was very intriguing to me.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
12:14
SPEAKER_01: well,
12:15
SPEAKER_01: if 40% of preachers feel this way,
12:18
SPEAKER_01: but there's all these styles of preachers,
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SPEAKER_01: and a lot of people say these preachers are great.
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SPEAKER_01: Is it all a preaching problem?
12:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: Is it a problem on the other end?
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: And it could be a combo of both, right?
12:30
SPEAKER_01: But when the number is that high at 40%, I don't think 40%—maybe they are.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: I haven't gone and done the numbers—
12:35
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if 40% of people are just not getting it together to get it out there.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: I think it's all sort of aligned on the audience.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: So that's why we also have to be careful, I think, of using the audience to see how well we did.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: Because, you know what I mean?
12:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to say that, you know.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: There are mature Christians, there are immature Christians all out in the audience.
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SPEAKER_01: I can't gauge my,
12:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:54
SPEAKER_01: as a math teacher,
12:55
SPEAKER_01: I can't gauge my calculus lesson on if the fifth graders and eighth graders
12:58
SPEAKER_01: understood it.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Because if they are clueless, they had the seniors over here that knew it.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: And I was talking to a very mixed audience.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: So you have to be careful not to beat yourself up.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: However,
13:06
SPEAKER_01: if everybody in your classroom in math class failed a test,
13:09
SPEAKER_01: they always say that was a teacher problem.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: So that's how you know.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: And it is really hard to gauge yourself.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: And I always just say, just go with where the Lord leads you and do the style that works for you.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And if you've been in a position for years doing it and the people are still coming back,
13:22
SPEAKER_01: something's working, especially if you preach on Christ.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: Stick to the method you're using.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: I think there's this...
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Maybe not overemphasis,
13:31
SPEAKER_00: but there is an emphasis on outlining and being meticulous that I think,
13:36
SPEAKER_00: if not careful,
13:39
SPEAKER_00: can lead to this notion that sermons are nothing more than almost like a
13:45
SPEAKER_00: boilerplate lecture as opposed to,
13:48
SPEAKER_00: I think,
13:48
SPEAKER_00: really what a sermon should be.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: And I think this gets into somewhat...
13:53
SPEAKER_00: esoteric kind of conversation,
13:56
SPEAKER_00: but we could kind of nail down into...
14:01
SPEAKER_00: This is what's maybe weird for people.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about outlines, but now we're going to talk about sermon theory.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: But a sermon is the conveyance, the communication of God's Word in the present.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: It's not just like, hey, here's all this stuff from the past...
14:20
SPEAKER_00: But it is relaying past events in light of the present.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: So there's this indeed,
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I would say,
14:28
SPEAKER_00: spiritual and divine-like overlap where the past bleeds into the present in order
14:35
SPEAKER_00: for us to understand our circumstances and events.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: cling to hope.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's what almost every sermon is meant to do,
14:45
SPEAKER_00: which is just to say,
14:46
SPEAKER_00: it's not just like a Ted talk.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: It's not just like a lecture that is really stuffy and formal.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: I think,
14:55
SPEAKER_00: I think clearly this can be more seen in like,
14:59
SPEAKER_00: uh,
15:00
SPEAKER_00: historical narrative sermons because you're,
15:03
SPEAKER_00: you're telling a story and,
15:05
SPEAKER_00: And not to say that every sermon is like that,
15:08
SPEAKER_00: but this is just kind of my approach,
15:12
SPEAKER_00: is getting the story behind what the author of Scripture,
15:18
SPEAKER_00: the human author,
15:20
SPEAKER_00: was addressing or going through.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: Because that story will let you understand what...
15:26
SPEAKER_00: why they're writing it.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: The story of Old Testament narrative books is easy to grasp because you're in a particular...
15:33
SPEAKER_00: You were just in 1 Samuel 31.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: There's clearly a story that's conveyed in that chapter that you could zoom out and
15:41
SPEAKER_00: get backstory on,
15:42
SPEAKER_00: but there's a clear story that if you follow that,
15:45
SPEAKER_00: that helps you tell the story of that chapter.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: But for instance, in the New Testament, it's a little bit more challenging.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: It requires a little bit more...
15:56
SPEAKER_00: I guess you could say to like understand the story behind why is Paul talking about
16:01
SPEAKER_00: justification in Galatians chapter two?
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Um,
16:04
SPEAKER_00: well then you have to kind of step back and put a little bit more pieces together
16:08
SPEAKER_00: to understand why he's,
16:11
SPEAKER_00: why he's calling Peter out and why he's conveying this message of justification to
16:15
SPEAKER_00: these people in such a forceful way.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: But all of which to say, um, you're not giving a lecture on doctrine, right?
16:23
SPEAKER_00: or some sort of theological point.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: I think really sermons are
16:30
SPEAKER_00: I like to call them events because the sermon event is this conveyance,
16:35
SPEAKER_00: this communication of a story that explains not only who we are in light of what
16:41
SPEAKER_00: God has revealed in his word,
16:43
SPEAKER_00: but also who God is in light of what God has revealed in his word.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: That's just a long way of saying that.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: And it's really a good point that a sermon, and you have to understand what it's for.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, I think you hit the nail on the head.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: It's somebody here conveying the message of Christ with this ancient text that most
17:03
SPEAKER_01: people look at and say,
17:04
SPEAKER_01: we are so out of touch with this world.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: The biggest question we talk about here is how does this world relate to me?
17:09
SPEAKER_01: That's really what the question that's being answered every Sunday is.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: Why does the Bible matter?
17:14
SPEAKER_01: Why are we reading these passages?
17:15
SPEAKER_01: pages from thousands of years ago.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: How does that make sense to our lives?
17:19
SPEAKER_01: And the preacher is basically the mediator between getting God's message clearly
17:25
SPEAKER_01: through to the people in a different time period.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Because the reason the Bible is so effective,
17:30
SPEAKER_01: the reason people can't get rid of the Bible,
17:31
SPEAKER_01: one,
17:32
SPEAKER_01: it's God's word and you can't overcome God at all in his plan.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: But because it transcends time,
17:38
SPEAKER_01: people can mock it forever and ever and say,
17:40
SPEAKER_01: these are thousands of years.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: These are outdated.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Well,
17:43
SPEAKER_01: how are they outdated if every single day people are in tears resonating with these
17:47
SPEAKER_01: stories somewhere around the world?
17:49
SPEAKER_01: It's because they transcend time.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Just because we read about Jacob having multiple wives and nobody does that today.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't use concubines, all this stuff.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Look past that.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: There is some human dilemma that all of us experience there.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: Some spiritual dilemma that all of us experience that are in that story where we
18:05
SPEAKER_01: might not live in a desert with very few waterways.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: We live in a very different world.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: Yet we can see families around us,
18:12
SPEAKER_01: whether it's ours or others,
18:13
SPEAKER_01: dysfunctional families or people who've cheated other people out of things.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, you can start to make these connections here.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I think a really good preacher does and how Christ, you know, fulfills all these things.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: But it's really bringing it down.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: How does yesterday compare with your today and why are we doing this?
18:29
SPEAKER_01: And then,
18:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:30
SPEAKER_01: to not only for them to know it,
18:32
SPEAKER_01: but then to do it,
18:33
SPEAKER_01: to actually put it into an application form in their own life,
18:36
SPEAKER_01: that call to action.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: I think is really important.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's like, I think, what you said, kind of the main driving point of this.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: And I also like what you said about the New Testament because it's so interesting.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Everybody wants to talk about the New Testament and people like to stay away from the Old Testament.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: And I go to the Old Testament a lot.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: However,
18:51
SPEAKER_01: I think in certain ways,
18:53
SPEAKER_01: once you grasp the concept of what the whole narrative story of the Bible is,
18:56
SPEAKER_01: the Old Testament is arguably,
18:57
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
18:58
SPEAKER_01: easier to preach out of in certain ways,
19:01
SPEAKER_01: unless you get to certain books,
19:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:02
SPEAKER_01: the poetry maybe,
19:02
SPEAKER_01: but then the New Testament,
19:04
SPEAKER_01: which,
19:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:04
SPEAKER_01: after the five books,
19:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:06
SPEAKER_01: the Gospels and Acts,
19:07
SPEAKER_01: you're really going to have to do your research,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: which again,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: I think is a preacher so necessary.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: It's important for all the people to understand the context of under-reading the Bible.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: But because everybody's working a 40-hour work week plus work and sports and all
19:20
SPEAKER_01: these extracurricular activities,
19:22
SPEAKER_01: they don't have time to do this back research.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: So they're relying on the man up front here to have done the research and saying,
19:28
SPEAKER_01: this is why it matters,
19:29
SPEAKER_01: and this is what context is in.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: And some sermons I've heard that are atrocious in the past is because people put
19:35
SPEAKER_01: their own,
19:36
SPEAKER_01: they didn't look at the Bible and really look at the context,
19:39
SPEAKER_01: and they just took a thing from James or a thing from...
19:42
SPEAKER_01: 1 Corinthians and ran with Jesus.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Basically, they made it up and this is how it feels to me.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: And that's where I take it.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: We could all have done that.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: We could all have sat down.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Hey, Bob, how does this make you feel?
19:52
SPEAKER_01: But it's not about emotions and feelings.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: We've got to know, oh, this is why.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Because Peter,
19:57
SPEAKER_01: oh,
19:57
SPEAKER_01: he did this because Peter was still,
19:59
SPEAKER_01: even though he was the one that God built his church,
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Jesus built his church on,
20:03
SPEAKER_01: he was still kind of giving into peer pressure to the Jewish people because he
20:06
SPEAKER_01: didn't want to look bad in front of his friends.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: You've got to understand why he said these things.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: And when you start to understand
20:11
SPEAKER_01: this descent it starts to make things a little bit more clear and now you know
20:14
SPEAKER_01: there's still this jew and gentile you know i mean almost like this clash almost
20:18
SPEAKER_01: racism in a way of nations or nationals whatever you want to say and you can see
20:22
SPEAKER_01: that here and then it can relate to today but until you do that you can take a
20:25
SPEAKER_01: verse out of context without knowing the background and just say one time jesus
20:28
SPEAKER_01: called peter satan i think he was working for the devil it's like oh
20:30
SPEAKER_01: No,
20:31
SPEAKER_01: the context is he was the opposer,
20:32
SPEAKER_01: and you break it down,
20:33
SPEAKER_01: he went against God's plan,
20:34
SPEAKER_01: but preachers,
20:36
SPEAKER_01: that's why it's so dangerous when they don't get away from the message of Christ,
20:38
SPEAKER_01: and they make it a feel-good message.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: They don't need to attach it to what was going on back then,
20:43
SPEAKER_01: which I think is very important to keep it in context.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think that...
20:48
SPEAKER_00: What that leads us to understand is,
20:52
SPEAKER_00: again,
20:53
SPEAKER_00: preachers are not just – they should not consider themselves just,
20:57
SPEAKER_00: like,
20:58
SPEAKER_00: regurgitators of a concordance.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, here's all the stuff about this particular subject or topic.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: But neither are they, you know, doctrinal lecturers.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, here's – that should inform –
21:11
SPEAKER_00: the way that they piece together certain elements of a text or whatever.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: But I think what makes sermons so powerful is the concept of storytelling.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: And I've talked about this with other people before,
21:26
SPEAKER_00: but I think that this kind of is an allusion back to –
21:33
SPEAKER_00: C.S.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: Lewis was often found remarking how the gospel is the best story of all and all those kinds of notions.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: But it leads us to understand that to convey the gospel is to tell a story.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: And not that every sermon has to be a story,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: but I think understood in that framework,
21:53
SPEAKER_00: we can understand that it's a piece of a story that God is telling.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, absolutely.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: And storytelling is so huge.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: I remember it's funny because the secular world knows this.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: Like before this, I worked in communications and marketing for this organization.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: And the big thing we knew is if you're trying to get somebody to buy into your
22:13
SPEAKER_01: vision or whatever it is,
22:14
SPEAKER_01: or to understand where you're coming from or why,
22:16
SPEAKER_01: we used to call it our why.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: Like why would somebody,
22:19
SPEAKER_01: and I worked in,
22:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:20
SPEAKER_01: we were trying to do financial literacy for people,
22:22
SPEAKER_01: teach them how to manage.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, why would, you know, you want to be financially literate?
22:25
SPEAKER_01: And then they'd say,
22:26
SPEAKER_01: We've got to tell a story of how this one person was broke and had no money,
22:30
SPEAKER_01: and because of this,
22:31
SPEAKER_01: and their financial literacy,
22:32
SPEAKER_01: and it was a storytelling,
22:33
SPEAKER_01: and it would captivate the audience,
22:34
SPEAKER_01: and all of a sudden it would resonate with them.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: Whereas I could have just said,
22:37
SPEAKER_01: hey,
22:37
SPEAKER_01: you should really learn how to spend money because boom,
22:38
SPEAKER_01: boom,
22:39
SPEAKER_01: boom,
22:39
SPEAKER_01: and you can do that.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: That's less effective.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: And people also remember stories.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Psychologists did studies on this.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: They remember stories better,
22:47
SPEAKER_01: and it can do illustrations,
22:48
SPEAKER_01: which some people,
22:49
SPEAKER_01: it might help your audience carry it along through.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Rather than saying, hey, remember what the verses said in 1 Corinthians, whatever.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
22:55
SPEAKER_01: remember this,
22:55
SPEAKER_01: plus remember the story of how,
22:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:57
SPEAKER_01: whatever,
22:57
SPEAKER_01: and Peter,
22:58
SPEAKER_01: and you can start to weave it in your head,
23:00
SPEAKER_01: and stories are really helping.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: That's what you kind of said.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: We are storytellers,
23:03
SPEAKER_01: essentially,
23:04
SPEAKER_01: conveying the message of whether it's,
23:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:06
SPEAKER_01: even,
23:07
SPEAKER_01: I'll even take,
23:08
SPEAKER_01: like,
23:08
SPEAKER_01: sometimes,
23:09
SPEAKER_01: even an introduction.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: That's the reason in an intro,
23:11
SPEAKER_01: a lot of times,
23:11
SPEAKER_01: for my visual,
23:12
SPEAKER_01: I'll have some kind of mini story,
23:14
SPEAKER_01: whether it's a hypothetical,
23:15
SPEAKER_01: like a parable or not,
23:16
SPEAKER_01: only because,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: again,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: these messages portray through,
23:19
SPEAKER_01: and then that gets a little bit more tricky when you start writing your
23:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:22
SPEAKER_01: some people get really sensitive about it because when I use an illustration for my story,
23:25
SPEAKER_01: I got to make sure it's a biblical story,
23:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:27
SPEAKER_01: and I'm tying it through the biblical main point.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's not just some story to throw a story in.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: I got to tie the story to the main point of the actual sermon I'm doing.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I mean, it's commonly known as the greatest story ever told, which is why I,
23:40
SPEAKER_01: it resonates even,
23:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:41
SPEAKER_01: the story of Jesus Christ resonates with us so much later because of everything we
23:46
SPEAKER_01: go with.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: But it's really,
23:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:47
SPEAKER_01: getting,
23:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm just thinking about like my sermon prep sometimes,
23:50
SPEAKER_01: like getting the message across and these points and these stories sometimes,
23:53
SPEAKER_01: it's so hard.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I think is difficult about sermon prep is,
23:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's like you,
23:58
SPEAKER_01: but I want to sometimes have it be so comprehensive.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm a writer.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: I write a lot.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: And like sometimes,
24:04
SPEAKER_01: like for example,
24:04
SPEAKER_01: I was working on this book here and my chapters would end up being around 30 pages,
24:08
SPEAKER_01: right?
24:09
SPEAKER_01: But at first, I probably wrote 50 to 60.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: And then I would write them and chisel them down.
24:13
SPEAKER_01: And I find that to be the same in my sermons.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes at first, I'll go in.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Almost every time,
24:19
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I was going,
24:19
SPEAKER_01: all right,
24:20
SPEAKER_01: well,
24:20
SPEAKER_01: at least include this,
24:21
SPEAKER_01: this,
24:21
SPEAKER_01: and this with the main point.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: And then I get in there, and it's a mile long.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I can't make these people stay here for an hour and 15.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: Plus, this might be, now I'm probably going off the main point.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: I thought it looked like the main point, but the way the Lord has kind of done this...
24:33
SPEAKER_01: I'd love to keep that, but it does no longer work anymore.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, oh, that means this doesn't work anymore.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm not going to have time for this.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, now that doesn't make sense.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: And it's more like people don't realize that I'm usually not writing and adding and adding and adding.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: I've almost written it out by Thursday and now I'm chiseling, chiseling, chiseling, chiseling.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: And that's my hardest part is like, because...
24:51
SPEAKER_01: you're like me too,
24:52
SPEAKER_01: like,
24:52
SPEAKER_01: I want people to understand there's so much fullness to this story,
24:54
SPEAKER_01: and there's so many details.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, when I did the Good Friday sermon on all the prophecies, I felt like I left so many out.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: And one guy actually said, he goes, that was really comprehensive.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: That was very comprehensive, which is great, but it's like, I left some out.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, you don't want to just, you know, vomit, you know, things onto people.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: And like, I've got to keep this concise.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes the balance has been like my word of the year too.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
25:15
SPEAKER_01: how do I get that balance when I'm prepping my sermon with how comprehensive I can
25:18
SPEAKER_01: make this?
25:19
SPEAKER_01: In the simplest way.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: It's like, how do I do that?
25:22
SPEAKER_01: That seems to be like when I'm prepping, that's like my big struggle with a lot of this stuff.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: That's so funny because I have the exact same process where in the way I write sermons,
25:31
SPEAKER_00: there'll be,
25:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:32
SPEAKER_00: 12 to 15 pages.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: And then I'll reduce them to usually I'll hover around 11 to 12.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: And that'll end up being, you know, what I'm preaching from on a given Sunday or whatever.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: But like that editing process is really interesting because it's
25:47
SPEAKER_00: What I'll end up doing,
25:48
SPEAKER_00: like I take a Friday off during my work week,
25:52
SPEAKER_00: and what that leads to is I won't look at – so theoretically,
25:59
SPEAKER_00: in an ideal week,
26:00
SPEAKER_00: I'll have my sermon manuscript or notes completely finished by Thursday,
26:06
SPEAKER_00: and then I won't look at them again until Saturday night.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: because then it's almost like all those things that you wrote down have had time to, like, marinate.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: It's like a really good meal.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes really good meals are better the day after.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, especially Italian dishes, you know?
26:24
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: They're so much better the next day.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: It's so true.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Doing that,
26:28
SPEAKER_00: I think,
26:28
SPEAKER_00: really allows me to have like all the elements of the sermon kind of marinate in gel.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: And then I can,
26:34
SPEAKER_00: like you were insinuating,
26:35
SPEAKER_00: you can go back with a more clear eye on what is actually connected to the point.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: And what is a tangent?
26:46
SPEAKER_00: What is kind of ancillary?
26:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think that to me is like the biggest thing.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: conversation point, if you will, regarding sermon prep, regarding outlines.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think, again, this goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: If you're a type of person that needs main points and sub points and sub sub points
27:07
SPEAKER_00: to understand a text properly,
27:10
SPEAKER_00: you know, more power to you, like run with that, go with that.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you're not, maybe you just need to just stew in a sermon text, like for a long time.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: And then you get the one main point, because I think that's the more important, I think.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: for conveying a sermon properly is not an alliterated three-point outline.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: It is rather, what is the driving point behind this sermon?
27:39
SPEAKER_00: Like, can you summarize this sermon in one sentence?
27:44
SPEAKER_00: I think that's way more important than having an outline is summarizing a sermon in
27:48
SPEAKER_00: in a sentence and whether it's a really long sentence or whether it's like a really
27:52
SPEAKER_00: bite-sized sentence,
27:53
SPEAKER_00: can you convey this?
27:54
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like the elevator speech, right?
27:55
SPEAKER_00: Like,
27:56
SPEAKER_00: can you pitch this idea by the time it takes to go from floor one to floor five on
28:01
SPEAKER_00: an elevator or floor one to four,
28:04
SPEAKER_00: three,
28:04
SPEAKER_00: it doesn't matter.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: Can you get out this pitch in that amount of time?
28:08
SPEAKER_00: And I think similarly, can you convey the essence of your sermon in that same kind of timeframe?
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Because
28:18
SPEAKER_00: then what you're doing is you're kind of laying the groundwork for, again, the story.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: Because every good story has a point.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: It has one kind of main point that's kind of, like in a movie, there's subplots and whatever.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: But sometimes, like in annoying movies, when those subplots don't get resolved, right?
28:39
SPEAKER_02: Exactly right.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: Those are bad.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: Same with a sermon.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: There's a problem, right?
28:44
SPEAKER_00: But I think that's what I'm trying to convey is,
28:48
SPEAKER_00: that if your sermon doesn't have an alliterated three-point outline,
28:52
SPEAKER_00: it still can be a really good sermon.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's fine not to have that over your head, so to speak.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and especially because, again, it might be boxing into somebody who you're not.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately,
29:04
SPEAKER_01: it probably happens to a lot of people maybe going through seminary,
29:06
SPEAKER_01: and whoever their people were,
29:08
SPEAKER_01: basically their mentors,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: said,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: hey—
29:10
SPEAKER_01: three point sermon you always need to have this main point then these you need
29:14
SPEAKER_01: incidental point you need three incidentals for each sub point and you start and
29:17
SPEAKER_01: then it can almost become rigid because then you're sitting there tapping your
29:20
SPEAKER_01: fingers what could be my third point what could be and now you're forcing content
29:23
SPEAKER_01: because you only have two sub points yeah and it's like well maybe you can like if
29:26
SPEAKER_00: you're getting to that point maybe how do i get all these words to alliterate
29:30
SPEAKER_01: exactly yeah i need my a b and c i have nowhere to start to see and i was told to
29:35
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you can try to get cutesy with it a lot of times.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: People probably do.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: But like you said, it can really lose people.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: Also,
29:40
SPEAKER_01: when you get into sub points,
29:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:42
SPEAKER_01: depending on how...
29:43
SPEAKER_01: Again,
29:43
SPEAKER_01: that's actually probably a skill,
29:45
SPEAKER_01: depending on how much of a writer you are.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: Some people can't develop sub points as well as others.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: So if you're forcing sub points in, you might be taking people out on a rabbit trail.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: Whereas you could have said, hey, listen...
29:55
SPEAKER_01: This is my main point.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: Main point is when you're in trouble, you can pray to the Lord.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't have to give you five different reasons you have to pray to the Lord.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: It should happen when I'm talking about this stuff.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: It'll probably just naturally come out when I give you the scripture.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't have to write point number one.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: You should pray to the Lord because the Bible says.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: Point number two, because it's like, because at some point you're going to start getting things.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, the Bible said, well, I already knew that.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, I knew that was my third point.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: I need one more.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: And when you start to get into these, it's like the legalism of preaching.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: Because there's legalism all throughout church.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: And we talked about that even last night with what people wear and what people
30:34
SPEAKER_01: listen to,
30:34
SPEAKER_01: what people watch.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: You can get so stuck in legalism.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: And Jesus was very clear about the Sabbath.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: And he even says, David ain't the holy bread.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
30:43
SPEAKER_01: And he was emphasizing here, legalism can get you in all sorts of trouble.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: And especially if you're going to put that right on the pastor and say, hey, your sermon was great.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: I really liked it, except I wouldn't give it an A because I was missing one more sub-point.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure that's happened.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure, and it still does somewhere out there.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: But I think the thing is to get down to the main point.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: What is the main point?
31:04
SPEAKER_01: And you want somebody to walk away with one thing.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: And my early days when I started doing it, you know,
31:10
SPEAKER_01: I forget who it was.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: Somebody said something like your first hundred sermons are awful no matter who you are.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like I go back like,
31:16
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
31:16
SPEAKER_01: I probably wouldn't want to listen to a lot of my early ones because it just takes,
31:19
SPEAKER_01: it's everything else like takes a muscle.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: But in the beginning,
31:21
SPEAKER_01: sometimes I think about some of my sermons,
31:22
SPEAKER_01: like I'd have a point,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: but then at the end I'd be driving home the second or third point.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, maybe that's good for some people.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: Maybe people got it.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: And I probably had the theory in the beginning that if they did,
31:31
SPEAKER_01: if they missed this point,
31:31
SPEAKER_01: at least they'll catch one of these.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: But it's like,
31:34
SPEAKER_01: you really sometimes got to watch out.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: And my preaching has changed over time because it's like, you really got to be concise with people.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: I started to learn about the audience as long,
31:43
SPEAKER_01: and I understand this maybe when I portray it to them,
31:45
SPEAKER_01: it might be overload unless they have a pen to write everything down.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you don't want to overload people.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, you want people to walk out the door.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: You would almost want, and you can even maybe do a test run,
31:55
SPEAKER_01: have somebody,
31:56
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:56
SPEAKER_01: just for fun,
31:58
SPEAKER_01: stand outside your church,
31:59
SPEAKER_01: wherever you're at,
32:00
SPEAKER_01: and just ask three random people in the congregation,
32:02
SPEAKER_01: hey,
32:03
SPEAKER_01: what was the main point of the sermon today?
32:04
SPEAKER_01: You get three different answers.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you need a bigger sample size.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: Maybe the people were sleeping or talking.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: But you should have the majority of your people say, maybe I didn't understand it really.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: I've got to learn more about this.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: But the main point was that Jacob understood that he was a sinful man.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Repentance and repentance.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: Whatever they may take.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: It might not even be your main point.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: But it should be close to the main point.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
32:28
SPEAKER_01: But it shouldn't be all these things that
32:31
SPEAKER_01: I learned that it was really sinful of Jacob to have multiple wives.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: That's sinful, but that was really not what we were going for when he said his days were few and evil.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
32:40
SPEAKER_01: So it's like these kind of things.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: And again, it is also dangerous.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying,
32:44
SPEAKER_01: hey,
32:44
SPEAKER_01: if those three people are out of whack,
32:45
SPEAKER_01: they might be your three people that were daydreaming or had a really bad week,
32:49
SPEAKER_01: and they can't get their minds off it.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Because you have to understand that just like little kids, some adults have short attention spans.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Again, you can't.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: Again,
32:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't get myself worked up if my son,
32:58
SPEAKER_01: five-year-old,
32:59
SPEAKER_01: doesn't understand everything and stops listening after minute three when I'm
33:02
SPEAKER_01: talking to him because I just know that's how he is.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: But I do think most of your people,
33:07
SPEAKER_01: especially when you know these are my solid people,
33:09
SPEAKER_01: they're the faithful believers,
33:11
SPEAKER_01: I should be able to go to ask them and say,
33:12
SPEAKER_01: hey,
33:12
SPEAKER_01: what do you think of this?
33:13
SPEAKER_01: And they should be able to...
33:14
SPEAKER_01: To get pretty close to, like, what my point was.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think I like that term, the legalism of preaching, because I don't know.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Again,
33:24
SPEAKER_00: it wasn't,
33:24
SPEAKER_00: like,
33:24
SPEAKER_00: told to me,
33:25
SPEAKER_00: but I just remember growing up,
33:27
SPEAKER_00: like,
33:27
SPEAKER_00: when I would be in different Bible classes or whatever,
33:31
SPEAKER_00: there was this notion that,
33:32
SPEAKER_00: like,
33:33
SPEAKER_00: the way you convey a sermon has to be where you have to get everyone to understand
33:38
SPEAKER_00: your point and your sub point.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: And so like by the end of it,
33:41
SPEAKER_00: everyone should take home like a little,
33:43
SPEAKER_00: like a little piece of paper of notes to where they could almost like repeat your
33:48
SPEAKER_00: sermon outline,
33:49
SPEAKER_00: which again,
33:51
SPEAKER_00: As I've grown or matured or whatever,
33:55
SPEAKER_00: I've definitely come down with the fact that I don't think that that's true at all.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: The sermon outline point – because there's this idea of like how –
34:05
SPEAKER_00: explicit should we be as Bible teachers or preachers with our outline for people?
34:12
SPEAKER_00: And again, I think that depends on the text and maybe it just works well.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: I've done sermon outlines where it's,
34:19
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
34:19
SPEAKER_00: it's like a lesson about this and a lesson about blah,
34:21
SPEAKER_00: blah,
34:21
SPEAKER_00: blah,
34:21
SPEAKER_00: blah,
34:22
SPEAKER_00: blah.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: But I don't think that has to be there all the time.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: But also I think this outlining point that we're making is more just for the
34:31
SPEAKER_00: preacher's own private benefit more than anything else,
34:33
SPEAKER_00: right?
34:33
SPEAKER_00: Like it's not really...
34:36
SPEAKER_00: outward facing it's not really like in the public sphere so to speak um it's more
34:41
SPEAKER_00: just how can you break this down again to understand the story yeah i would agree
34:46
SPEAKER_01: and that and that's the whole point again this is really just for the benefit of of
34:49
SPEAKER_01: the preacher making sure he gets his thoughts across the best way he can do it
34:53
SPEAKER_01: which is why you and me would look different compared to somebody else who might
34:55
SPEAKER_01: not use notes at all it all looks different and really the important part is the
34:59
SPEAKER_01: outcome like
35:00
SPEAKER_01: could you imagine just walking into every kitchen of every restaurant like i want
35:03
SPEAKER_01: to see how you chop this up first i want to see who threw them how did you cut did
35:06
SPEAKER_01: you cut your vegetables first or did you do throw the meat in first i need to know
35:09
SPEAKER_01: it's like i don't think people need to know what ingredients card did you make this
35:13
SPEAKER_01: from scratch in your mind or did you have this card and did the thing have at least
35:16
SPEAKER_01: five ingredient lines like you don't care when you're eating the food it's like
35:19
SPEAKER_01: this is really good yeah i was really satisfied with this so that's a good point so
35:23
SPEAKER_01: sometimes you can get so pressured into that now i do know like um
35:27
SPEAKER_01: this one church is actually going to,
35:28
SPEAKER_01: maybe it works for people,
35:29
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't personally take them,
35:30
SPEAKER_01: but the preacher there would actually have,
35:33
SPEAKER_01: when you walked in the door,
35:34
SPEAKER_01: almost like,
35:35
SPEAKER_01: it reminded me of my college days,
35:37
SPEAKER_01: it was almost like an outline.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: You'd grab this outline and it had blanks in it.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: And you're supposed to take notes.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a huge,
35:43
SPEAKER_01: huge,
35:43
SPEAKER_01: I'll take little notes on my own if I need to,
35:45
SPEAKER_01: but I'm not a huge,
35:45
SPEAKER_01: huge note taker,
35:46
SPEAKER_01: which I guess that will help sometimes people with short attention spans pay
35:50
SPEAKER_01: attention or whatever,
35:50
SPEAKER_01: but that's not something I think you have to do,
35:52
SPEAKER_01: and I think anybody can take their own notes however they want to do it,
35:55
SPEAKER_01: but I know this church did it,
35:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't know
35:56
SPEAKER_01: where it came from,
35:57
SPEAKER_01: but it was almost like...
35:58
SPEAKER_01: Which means the preacher was almost,
36:00
SPEAKER_01: in a way,
36:00
SPEAKER_01: giving out his sermon notes.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: Because every once in a while,
36:03
SPEAKER_01: I'd say,
36:03
SPEAKER_01: hey,
36:03
SPEAKER_01: I forgot to write this one,
36:04
SPEAKER_01: and this should have been after point A.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: You can write this one down.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: I forgot to leave the blank in here for this one.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: And you could tell.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: And you almost got to, like...
36:12
SPEAKER_01: That was good, I guess.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: It must have come from somewhere.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: People don't do anything for no reason or whatever.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it helped a lot of people.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: I would never take the outline.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure people would have known I was a pastor, and he's never taken the outline.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't write on the pastor's things in there.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: I could see where that would help people.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: However, could you imagine, again, also, it's like...
36:32
SPEAKER_01: how it would alter maybe even how you did things.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: Because now my sermon notes might look a little different.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: A lot of times it's freehand.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: It might even be short things.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: It might not even be full sentences at times for me.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: It might be three or five words, and I'm just going to expand on it.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Um,
36:46
SPEAKER_01: but now if I know I got to turn this into the congregation on Sunday mornings,
36:49
SPEAKER_01: they can come in and start writing notes and fill in my blanks of the word I left
36:52
SPEAKER_01: out that I deleted for them.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Like,
36:54
SPEAKER_01: well now it becomes a whole new process and then it becomes more stressful and then
36:58
SPEAKER_01: it becomes a whole thing.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think by any means a preacher ever needs to,
37:03
SPEAKER_01: uh,
37:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:03
SPEAKER_01: elaborate on their note taking or if they use notes or not.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: I think Billy Graham didn't use them for a long time.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Like it depends whatever, whatever you want to do.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I've done it, I've done it both ways.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny because, um,
37:15
SPEAKER_01: I've had people in my sermons, they like the sermons.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: I've had people in my Sunday night stuff, they like the Sunday night stuff.
37:20
SPEAKER_01: Seriously, they're completely different.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: Sermons,
37:21
SPEAKER_01: I am packed to the gills,
37:23
SPEAKER_01: kind of like you,
37:24
SPEAKER_01: 10 to 12 page of notes of verses or something that I can fly right through on my iPad.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: And then over here, it's just like, I think it's a little bit easier.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: The reason I'm a little bit more comfortable on Sunday nights is because I'm staying in one chapter.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: So for me,
37:36
SPEAKER_01: the verses are my notes because I've read and I've analyzed and I've prayed about
37:40
SPEAKER_01: and thought about and read this commentary and that one.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: So every time I read that verse, it's going to trigger my mental notes.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: So that's the way I'm going to do it.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: Now,
37:48
SPEAKER_01: if I had to go on a Sunday night and start going,
37:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:50
SPEAKER_01: I got to go,
37:51
SPEAKER_01: but hey,
37:51
SPEAKER_01: let's go back to first.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Let's go to first Peter and let's go back to Genesis and let's do all this.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: And I'm jumping around.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to use notes or a PowerPoint, which is essentially what people don't even realize.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Those are my notes.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: I just don't have to look at it.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: I do it in all different formats.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: But, yeah, I don't think it would be interesting if somebody would say, oh, Eric, you didn't use notes?
38:06
SPEAKER_01: You didn't do a three-point thing for your Sunday night?
38:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I can come again.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: It would be kind of crazy.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: But yet again,
38:11
SPEAKER_01: and I've found this in life a lot,
38:13
SPEAKER_01: and preachers are no different,
38:14
SPEAKER_01: that sometimes we can have these,
38:15
SPEAKER_01: like kind of what you said,
38:17
SPEAKER_01: you don't even remember anybody telling you this.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: Like you don't ever remember saying it,
38:20
SPEAKER_01: but it must have been implied somewhere along,
38:22
SPEAKER_01: and you're not the only one who feels this way.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: Everybody has these things, and I've been getting on a deeper level than even just preaching is,
38:28
SPEAKER_01: where do expectations come from and are they valid or not?
38:31
SPEAKER_01: Even if they come from a real direct person,
38:33
SPEAKER_01: if there's somebody out there that said,
38:34
SPEAKER_01: you must have a three point sermon or you're a failure,
38:37
SPEAKER_01: does that matter what that person really said?
38:38
SPEAKER_01: Is that really the truth?
38:39
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Or,
38:40
SPEAKER_01: and then a big thing,
38:41
SPEAKER_01: what I'm realizing is when we get these things and we feel this pressure,
38:43
SPEAKER_01: like everybody in our congregation,
38:44
SPEAKER_01: all the other pastors around here would think less of us.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: We have to start thinking, is it maybe just in our heads or does it maybe even matter?
38:51
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of times we get so boxed in by legalism of the past that we carry it
38:55
SPEAKER_01: with us into our futures.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
38:57
SPEAKER_00: Oh, definitely.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think,
39:00
SPEAKER_00: again,
39:01
SPEAKER_00: to push that phrase that I think is really good,
39:03
SPEAKER_00: the legalism of preaching is one that we don't often consider enough because there
39:10
SPEAKER_00: is so much variance,
39:12
SPEAKER_00: but we want there to be some sort of like...
39:15
SPEAKER_00: through line that we want there to be some sort of standard.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: And again,
39:18
SPEAKER_00: this is really,
39:19
SPEAKER_00: I think important for seminarians to understand or like aspiring preachers to
39:24
SPEAKER_00: understand that there,
39:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't think there is,
39:27
SPEAKER_00: there is a wrong way to preach,
39:28
SPEAKER_00: but I don't think there's,
39:30
SPEAKER_00: we can go to the opposite extreme.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, like you're hinting at like this legalistic way of approaching how to put together a sermon.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: But I was thinking also just how, how to convey this idea of,
39:43
SPEAKER_00: of preaching or like sharing the gospel in terms of a story.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't help, but just imagine.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: And again, this is not like blatant within the text of scripture.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: Um,
39:56
SPEAKER_00: but you just,
39:57
SPEAKER_00: uh,
39:58
SPEAKER_00: there's like,
39:58
SPEAKER_00: we never get a chapter in verse where we're told how Abraham passed down the story
40:07
SPEAKER_00: of God's promise to him,
40:09
SPEAKER_00: to Isaac,
40:10
SPEAKER_00: um,
40:11
SPEAKER_00: But we can read,
40:12
SPEAKER_00: like,
40:12
SPEAKER_00: even we don't even get one where we hear about how Adam and Eve passed down the
40:17
SPEAKER_00: story of Genesis 315 to their sons.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: And yet,
40:20
SPEAKER_00: by the same token,
40:22
SPEAKER_00: we have to understand,
40:22
SPEAKER_00: like,
40:23
SPEAKER_00: once you get to chapter 4 of Genesis,
40:25
SPEAKER_00: Cain and Abel understand,
40:27
SPEAKER_00: and,
40:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
40:27
SPEAKER_00: Cain obviously incorrectly,
40:29
SPEAKER_00: but they both understand that their hope to relate to God again is,
40:37
SPEAKER_00: relies on the promise of someone better.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: And they're coming to that place,
40:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
40:44
SPEAKER_00: some people think that when they're making that offering there in Genesis 4,
40:47
SPEAKER_00: that it's like at the gate where those two angels were and all that.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: That's beside the point.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: But regardless,
40:55
SPEAKER_00: they're making an offering because...
40:57
SPEAKER_00: And again,
40:58
SPEAKER_00: this is thousands of years before the law.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: You're almost seeing...
41:03
SPEAKER_00: the day of atonement sort of acted out by Cain and Abel,
41:07
SPEAKER_00: Cain wrongly,
41:08
SPEAKER_00: but Abel bringing this offering as a way to make atonement so that they can relate
41:14
SPEAKER_00: to God again,
41:15
SPEAKER_00: which again,
41:16
SPEAKER_00: how are they going through that function of worship without prior hearing the story
41:25
SPEAKER_00: of both their,
41:27
SPEAKER_00: their parents,
41:27
SPEAKER_00: uh,
41:28
SPEAKER_00: incorrect decision,
41:30
SPEAKER_00: but also the promise that the seed of the woman is going to come and make things right.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: All of that is conveyed sort of in between the lines, if you will.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: And then I think about, you know, some people have the theory that the gospel of Mark is really just
41:47
SPEAKER_00: John Mark, the disciple, sort of piecing together Peter's sermons.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: Like there's that,
41:53
SPEAKER_00: which I really buy into the idea that,
41:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:56
SPEAKER_00: John Mark is like hearing Peter preach about Jesus and he's putting together his
42:01
SPEAKER_00: gospel about that.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: But again, I don't think like Peter was like, you know.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: what I'm trying to convey is when they're telling these stories,
42:10
SPEAKER_00: they're not conveying them with like point one and point two,
42:13
SPEAKER_00: and here's all these sub points and all those kinds of things.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: They were more conveying them in the sense of here's a story like, and that's where we get the gospels.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: And that's even more so where we get,
42:23
SPEAKER_00: um,
42:24
SPEAKER_00: where we can understand how the story of the promise was carried forward throughout
42:29
SPEAKER_00: all of those different generations.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: And that's an amazing, uh, point to really consider, uh,
42:34
SPEAKER_01: is, you know, the Bible is perfect.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: It's a perfect written book,
42:39
SPEAKER_01: and it was preserved through the storytelling,
42:42
SPEAKER_01: and I don't think there is one sermon that has sub-points and all these itineraries
42:47
SPEAKER_01: of how it was laid out like you said.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: It naturally happened.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: Peter,
42:50
SPEAKER_01: if you could probably go back and analyze,
42:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
42:51
SPEAKER_01: man,
42:51
SPEAKER_01: that was a really good sermon he gave in Acts there,
42:54
SPEAKER_01: but he didn't do all,
42:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:55
SPEAKER_01: you can break it down,
42:56
SPEAKER_01: but I guarantee he didn't go up their sermon notes.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: He didn't go in there and say,
42:59
SPEAKER_01: well,
42:59
SPEAKER_01: here's my,
42:59
SPEAKER_01: whatever,
43:00
SPEAKER_01: main point,
43:01
SPEAKER_01: and then my call to action is,
43:02
SPEAKER_01: just in review...
43:04
SPEAKER_01: Right?
43:05
SPEAKER_01: It's a powerful thing.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: And could you just imagine how different the Bible would sound if it was like that?
43:11
SPEAKER_01: But again, it's nothing bad.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: It does help the human mind in constructing.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: We're not obviously railing against doing this in an organized way.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: We are both organized people.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: And it helps to organize your thoughts.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: But I think the storytelling conveying that main message,
43:25
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
43:26
SPEAKER_01: how did...
43:27
SPEAKER_01: And somebody,
43:27
SPEAKER_01: I think,
43:27
SPEAKER_01: pointed out one time that Genesis 4,
43:29
SPEAKER_01: when you talk about it,
43:30
SPEAKER_01: it's actually the first...
43:31
SPEAKER_01: worship service yeah it's the first worship service and it has to do with sacrifice
43:35
SPEAKER_01: how did they know yeah how do they know about this whole sacrifice and he said call
43:38
SPEAKER_01: him the greater good well somebody must have told him yeah and i don't think adam
43:42
SPEAKER_01: sat him down with a you know a three-point sermon like he said they told him and
43:45
SPEAKER_01: there's actually a really cool um
43:47
SPEAKER_01: Again, this is extra biblical, so you don't subscribe to all this or anything like that.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: But there's a theory that it was called the Maseroth,
43:55
SPEAKER_01: which it shows up one time in the Bible in the Old Testament,
43:57
SPEAKER_01: I think in Job.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: But the Maseroth is basically what we call the Zodiac, the 12-star Zodiac today.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: And they say that it was bastardized at the Tower of Babel.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: There's this whole thing Josephus writes about.
44:08
SPEAKER_01: And again, extra biblical.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to take it for a grain of salt, whatever you want.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: But the theory that the Tower of Babel,
44:16
SPEAKER_01: when they were doing the Stargate thing,
44:18
SPEAKER_01: goes into that they basically bastardized this whole thing that used to be the
44:21
SPEAKER_01: Maserat that now we call the Zodiac.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: Because originally, it was the storytelling.
44:26
SPEAKER_01: And it would say, the reason it starts with Virgo, it was the virgin birth.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: The reason it ends with Leo,
44:30
SPEAKER_01: the lion,
44:31
SPEAKER_01: was because it was the king coming back as the lion,
44:34
SPEAKER_01: the lion and the lamb.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: And when you start to realize this,
44:36
SPEAKER_01: there's actually a breakdown of these 12 things you could walk somebody through.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: Here's the promise, you'll be born a virgin and all this stuff will take on sin.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: And it was like that until we now turn it into horoscopes.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: And again, it's extra biblical.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be taken for a great assault, what you will.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people back then write about this,
44:55
SPEAKER_01: but getting to the point of what you're saying,
44:56
SPEAKER_01: which is really amazing.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: The reason Adam was able to teach all these generations and then on and on and on
45:02
SPEAKER_01: until Moses actually wrote it down was because they had a storytelling method.
45:06
SPEAKER_01: And again,
45:07
SPEAKER_01: I don't think they went through and said,
45:08
SPEAKER_01: Virgo,
45:08
SPEAKER_01: virgin birth,
45:09
SPEAKER_01: and this will be,
45:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:10
SPEAKER_01: whatever,
45:10
SPEAKER_01: whatever.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: And,
45:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:11
SPEAKER_01: it might not be exactly like that because we don't get the virgin birth thing until later,
45:13
SPEAKER_01: but maybe there was some kind of subtle storytelling.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: No matter what,
45:17
SPEAKER_01: you want to take that for a grain of salt,
45:18
SPEAKER_01: no matter what,
45:18
SPEAKER_01: there had to have been some storytelling to preserve this story and they understood this.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: And like you said,
45:23
SPEAKER_01: that's the best example is way before the law,
45:26
SPEAKER_01: way before anything is they're doing sacrifices where you said Cain got it wrong,
45:29
SPEAKER_01: Abel got it right.
45:31
SPEAKER_01: which goes into works,
45:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:32
SPEAKER_01: the curse,
45:33
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:33
SPEAKER_01: it's cursed land or whatever,
45:34
SPEAKER_01: but shedding of blood was necessary.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: And again, the shedding of blood was necessary and probably came from, forget the Maserath.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: So he came from Adam and Eve saying, listen, we tried to sow leaves back in the day.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: You guys have no idea.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: We tried this once and it doesn't work.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: God is going to need blood.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: And Abel's like, all right, cool.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: And Cain's like, I actually worked the land.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: I'll just give him some fruit.
45:53
SPEAKER_01: They're like, no, that's not a good idea.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: He requires blood to come to sin.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: And so there is something to it, and it continues on this thing.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: And again, there was no five-point sermon, three-point sermons, five-point, whatever sermon you want.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: It was all conveying this story.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: With a main point that there is the main point of Adam's story to his kids was
46:12
SPEAKER_01: probably there is no forgiveness without the,
46:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
46:15
SPEAKER_01: with blood.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: Without the remission of sin.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: There is no remission of sin.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: Without blood.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: And that was probably his main point.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: And he didn't have all these sub points and it clearly carried through to Abel.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: I just love that notion.
46:28
SPEAKER_00: of that story being carried through like thousands of years of history.
46:32
SPEAKER_00: And it like we we know that was like you like you mentioned,
46:37
SPEAKER_00: it was written down with Moses or whatever,
46:39
SPEAKER_00: but how it was conveyed and preserved and carried forward throughout all of those years,
46:44
SPEAKER_00: the years of Israel's wandering and an exile and return into where now,
46:50
SPEAKER_00: even to this day,
46:52
SPEAKER_00: we have this story preserved.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think
46:56
SPEAKER_00: What we're getting at and what I'm trying to get at is just the idea that when a
47:00
SPEAKER_00: preacher gets up on a Sunday morning to open the Word of God and preach,
47:06
SPEAKER_00: it is less,
47:07
SPEAKER_00: again,
47:07
SPEAKER_00: as I said earlier,
47:09
SPEAKER_00: less a TED Talk or doctrinal lecture as much as it is...
47:13
SPEAKER_00: a grandfather giving a fireside story and like, here, here, come here.
47:19
SPEAKER_00: Let me tell you this story about how this God that is revealed to us in the word did this for his people.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: And he's still your God.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: Like that is a way more in my way of thinking about it.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: It provides way more resonance to,
47:39
SPEAKER_00: And I would even say like the longevity of conveying that story, it lasts.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: It really like can sink in more as opposed to like here's all this information
47:53
SPEAKER_00: about this doctrine or what have you.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: Like you were saying,
47:56
SPEAKER_00: like if you're just like word vomiting or scripture reference vomiting on people,
48:00
SPEAKER_01: you know.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it can happen.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: And it's just one of those things that you've got to kind of keep it.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: The big reason that I think people have such a problem with the Western church
48:09
SPEAKER_01: sometimes is that we get so far away from the Bible.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: Basically what it is,
48:13
SPEAKER_01: is you get caught up in all the things that are extra biblical,
48:15
SPEAKER_01: which can sometimes be.
48:18
SPEAKER_01: If you're going to emphasize the three points, I'm not saying it's wrong to emphasize these things.
48:21
SPEAKER_01: I think they're good.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: I've used them myself, these structures or whatever.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: But if you're going to emphasize that as a requirement,
48:27
SPEAKER_01: it's hard for me to ever take anybody seriously to give me a requirement of
48:30
SPEAKER_01: something that I don't see in the Bible.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of what you're showing me here.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: If somebody said,
48:34
SPEAKER_01: I require you to,
48:35
SPEAKER_01: in a nice,
48:36
SPEAKER_01: simple,
48:36
SPEAKER_01: easy way,
48:36
SPEAKER_01: deliver this one main point,
48:37
SPEAKER_01: I can see that in the Bible because that's what Peter does.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: That's what we just talked about Adam must have done for his sons.
48:43
SPEAKER_01: So when you get into this legalistic stuff that goes outside of the Bible, it just becomes a problem.
48:47
SPEAKER_01: And that's where it can cause all kinds of issues with people and get to people's
48:51
SPEAKER_01: heads and alter all kinds of things.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: I actually know there's one YouTube channel I watch of this guy where he will
48:57
SPEAKER_01: actually preach out in the woods on purpose.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: It's really interesting.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: He's in church, but he does not let them gather in a building.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: They have a building to pray and stuff, but all of his sermons are done in the woods to be more informal.
49:09
SPEAKER_01: And he doesn't explicitly say this, but I've wondered.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: I've watched a couple of his things now.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: It's like...
49:13
SPEAKER_01: I think what he's getting at here is, hey, this is God's house.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: This is nature.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: We don't need fancy things.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes all these curtains and bulletins and what you said,
49:21
SPEAKER_01: announcements and this part of the thing can sometimes really get like it.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: Those are good things, by the way.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: We all do that.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: We do that because they're good.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: However.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: You will notice,
49:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:31
SPEAKER_01: sometimes we might come in on a Sunday and say,
49:33
SPEAKER_01: hey,
49:33
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:34
SPEAKER_01: Sunday we're going to do this,
49:34
SPEAKER_01: this.
49:34
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be a little bit different than we usually do.
49:36
SPEAKER_01: That will cause some people to go into a panic.
49:38
SPEAKER_01: Why?
49:38
SPEAKER_01: Because they have no longer relying on the Bible and the Holy Spirit.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: They're relying on this rigid system that we've developed where this preacher that
49:45
SPEAKER_01: I watch,
49:46
SPEAKER_01: I think,
49:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how long he's been doing it.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: For some reason he must have done it,
49:50
SPEAKER_01: but it was almost like I think,
49:51
SPEAKER_01: hey,
49:51
SPEAKER_01: let's get you out here where there's probably less distractions and
49:55
SPEAKER_01: You might have less phone service wherever they're at.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't know where they're at.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: I think maybe in Kentucky or something like that.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: But really interesting, almost like what he emphasized.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying he's the greatest preacher or anything either,
50:03
SPEAKER_01: but I'm saying it's a really interesting tactic that...
50:06
SPEAKER_01: It's maybe just getting to the point here.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: We don't need fancy things.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: We don't need these scripts.
50:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't think he carries a script in or anything either like that.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: It's just focused on storytelling, relating to people, and again, getting that message of the story.
50:18
SPEAKER_01: Because we just talked about there's no forgiveness without blood, basically.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: It's what it says.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: There's life in the blood.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: How does that relate to people today?
50:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, that definitely relates to us today because of sin.
50:30
SPEAKER_01: So there's a way to tell this one concise story and still make it modern with
50:34
SPEAKER_01: ancient scripture and saying,
50:35
SPEAKER_01: well,
50:35
SPEAKER_01: you have a sin,
50:36
SPEAKER_01: I have a sin,
50:37
SPEAKER_01: and we all know there's this moral law we follow.
50:39
SPEAKER_01: How would we ever get... And people relate it.
50:41
SPEAKER_01: That's why the Bible still resonates.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: That's why they'll never get rid of the Bible.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: One of the many reasons they'll never get rid of it is because it's so true and you just need somebody...
50:48
SPEAKER_01: A good preacher is going to say, my main goal, my main, you have to start boiling down.
50:52
SPEAKER_01: What is the sermon, the job of the preacher and their sermon?
50:56
SPEAKER_01: It is to convey this one message from God that will relate to their life,
51:00
SPEAKER_01: that will help them understand the gospel better and what Christ did,
51:04
SPEAKER_01: and also understand how that can affect their lives and,
51:07
SPEAKER_01: and sanctify them,
51:08
SPEAKER_01: how it can cause a change in their life to live a more holy way than they might've
51:12
SPEAKER_01: been before.
51:13
SPEAKER_01: So I think when you start boiling it down, um,
51:17
SPEAKER_01: You can do those things without these numbers of points sermons.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: And I think, again, what my mind is drawn to is what you emphasized earlier, which is balance.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Which is just to say, I don't think the removal of outlines needs to go to that polar extreme of...
51:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to worry about anything that I'm going to say,
51:44
SPEAKER_00: and I'm just going to rely on the Holy Spirit.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: You should rely on the Holy Spirit, but relying on the Holy Spirit doesn't negate preparation.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: But by the same token,
51:54
SPEAKER_00: don't rely on your preparation at the expense of the Holy Spirit,
51:57
SPEAKER_00: which again gets into,
51:59
SPEAKER_00: are you trusting in your sermon outline to almost preach for you,
52:05
SPEAKER_00: or
52:06
SPEAKER_00: Or are you trusting in the Holy Spirit to speak through you?
52:10
SPEAKER_00: And,
52:10
SPEAKER_00: again,
52:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't subscribe to this idea that we just have to,
52:13
SPEAKER_00: like,
52:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:14
SPEAKER_00: wait for a quote-unquote anointing.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: And that person, they're supposed to get up and preach.
52:19
SPEAKER_00: Because, again, you can go to all kinds of scripture places for that.
52:22
SPEAKER_00: Like, there is order.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: There is a certain procedure.
52:25
SPEAKER_00: I think Paul talks about it in 1 Corinthians or whatever.
52:28
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that passage...
52:30
SPEAKER_00: where Jesus is sending out the 72 and he says, hey, don't worry about what you're going to say.
52:35
SPEAKER_00: My spirit is going to give you the words to say.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: I think there's definitely that is applicable to preachers.
52:45
SPEAKER_00: But also what precedes that moment is Jesus giving his disciples his words.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like there is prep work, but don't just trust in your prep.
52:55
SPEAKER_00: Right.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
52:57
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
52:57
SPEAKER_01: And that's actually probably a really great correlation here where you can call
53:01
SPEAKER_01: Jesus in the setting the preacher.
53:03
SPEAKER_01: And you can call them almost his congregation of disciples, of close people.
53:07
SPEAKER_01: Whereas the Lord, now he's unique because he's God, but he knew his scriptures very well.
53:12
SPEAKER_01: He obviously knew them, he wrote them.
53:14
SPEAKER_01: So he knew the scriptures very well and had a lot of prep work, I would say.
53:17
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure he read them forward and backward even as a kid.
53:21
SPEAKER_01: So he knew what he was doing.
53:22
SPEAKER_01: I think there's definitely a lot of prep work that needs to go into it with,
53:25
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
53:26
SPEAKER_01: the Holy Spirit needs to be factored in.
53:27
SPEAKER_01: You can't be like, well, I'll write this and I'll say a prayer after I'm done.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, you should probably pray before, pray during, and edit.
53:33
SPEAKER_01: But really, it's that message.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: It does take some prep work.
53:36
SPEAKER_01: And I think the reason Jesus says, you know, don't worry about what you're going to say.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: He'll give you the words to say is the same thing we could say to our congregation members.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: Like,
53:43
SPEAKER_01: hey,
53:43
SPEAKER_01: you don't have to do all the sermon prep I just did to go out and tell somebody
53:46
SPEAKER_01: about the Lord Jesus and their need for him.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: So you don't worry about it.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: Now that you understand what we said and you understand the gospel message,
53:53
SPEAKER_01: don't even worry about what verse you're going to...
53:55
SPEAKER_01: The Holy Spirit will lead you and guide you and you have this.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: I think if Jesus were sending those 72 out to go be pastors at 72 churches,
54:05
SPEAKER_01: the verse would look differently,
54:06
SPEAKER_01: in my opinion.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: And it just brings us back to...
54:13
SPEAKER_00: There's an intentionality with sermon preparation that,
54:18
SPEAKER_00: again,
54:18
SPEAKER_00: this stretches back to,
54:20
SPEAKER_00: I think,
54:20
SPEAKER_00: one of our earliest conversations,
54:23
SPEAKER_00: which was...
54:25
SPEAKER_00: the preacher putting himself under the authority of God and doing so willingly,
54:29
SPEAKER_00: doing so joyfully,
54:31
SPEAKER_00: and doing so in a way that he's able to convey exactly God's truth for the people
54:39
SPEAKER_00: of God in that particular context or setting or scenario or what have you.
54:43
SPEAKER_00: But all of this leads to that intentionality of sermon prep.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: It is, again, it's a practical thing, but there's lots of
54:55
SPEAKER_00: spiritual and theological things happening where you're,
54:59
SPEAKER_00: where the sermon,
55:01
SPEAKER_00: the preacher,
55:01
SPEAKER_00: you and my,
55:02
SPEAKER_00: my,
55:02
SPEAKER_00: myself included,
55:05
SPEAKER_00: there's constant decisions that are happening.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: Are we, are we, are we trusting in, in our aptitude or are we trusting in the spirit?
55:15
SPEAKER_00: And that like,
55:16
SPEAKER_00: again,
55:16
SPEAKER_00: all of this means like for every preacher that's looking to preach,
55:22
SPEAKER_00: do the prep work,
55:22
SPEAKER_00: do the work and,
55:24
SPEAKER_00: really get into a text,
55:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:26
SPEAKER_00: resort to your Hebrew and Greek,
55:28
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:29
SPEAKER_00: languages and try to understand the grammar and all that kind of stuff.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: But don't regurgitate that in your sermon.
55:37
SPEAKER_00: Like do the outlining,
55:39
SPEAKER_00: do the sub pointing if that helps you understand the flow and get to the main point.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: But don't just regurgitate this
55:47
SPEAKER_00: in your sermon and treat it as a lecture.
55:51
SPEAKER_00: This is a communication of God's person and grace and truth and holiness that he puts into these stories.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: And we have been given the amazing privilege to convey these stories once again.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: And again, you mentioned Peter preaching.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: And he's preaching on Pentecost.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: And you can really see, I think, a really amazing way to preach just by analyzing that sermon.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: And like you mentioned, it's not three points and a call to action.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: Even though he does have a call to action.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: Without explicitly saying, here's my call to action.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: Here's your practical application.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: But I think what we're getting at is there's like this...
56:42
SPEAKER_00: soaking in of the word that allow...
56:47
SPEAKER_00: We've talked about this before,
56:49
SPEAKER_00: but don't rely on your outlining,
56:52
SPEAKER_00: but also don't rely on your commentaries to preach for you.
56:57
SPEAKER_00: Soak in the word first and foremost, because when Peter's preaching...
57:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't think he had resorted to,
57:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:05
SPEAKER_00: his commentary on Joel to get,
57:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:07
SPEAKER_00: the point across that,
57:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:09
SPEAKER_00: hey,
57:09
SPEAKER_00: this Pentecost is what Joel was talking about.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: He knew it like it was in him.
57:15
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of what we're getting at in terms of like there was prep work,
57:19
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
57:19
SPEAKER_00: because this like Jesus was with his disciples for what,
57:23
SPEAKER_00: like 40 days after he had resurrected.
57:26
SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot.
57:26
SPEAKER_00: And he was like,
57:29
SPEAKER_00: I have the insinuation that he was preaching to them a lot.
57:32
SPEAKER_00: But when Peter's preaching there,
57:35
SPEAKER_00: it's just kind of coming from out of him because he's just been saturated in the
57:40
SPEAKER_00: word for so much,
57:42
SPEAKER_00: for so long.
57:42
SPEAKER_01: Yep, he has that well of scripture within him.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: Almost like Christ had it way more, obviously, where you just get up and speak or whatever.
57:49
SPEAKER_01: But that's where it came from.
57:49
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, Peter couldn't... No, the Holy Spirit can do anything, right?
57:52
SPEAKER_01: That would have been a miraculous thing.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: But the thing was that Peter had walked with Jesus.
57:56
SPEAKER_01: He had done his quote-unquote prep work.
57:58
SPEAKER_01: They had talked about Joel many times, not just once.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: That's why he was able to just rattle it off.
58:02
SPEAKER_01: The reason I'm able to rattle off certain verses without,
58:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
58:05
SPEAKER_01: and really emphasize it because I've done,
58:06
SPEAKER_01: I've saturated it,
58:07
SPEAKER_01: I've lived in it and stuff.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's important.
58:10
SPEAKER_01: I also like what you said about commentaries.
58:12
SPEAKER_01: Commentaries are very helpful, right?
58:14
SPEAKER_01: But you have to remember they are subservient to the Bible.
58:16
SPEAKER_01: They're under the authority of the Bible.
58:18
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you just have to say these might be opinions or these might even be feel-good.
58:22
SPEAKER_01: There's some commentaries that are just some feel-good stuff.
58:25
SPEAKER_01: So I even pray about even the directions I take.
58:27
SPEAKER_01: If I'll throw something in of my own commentary or whatever, it's like, hey, I've got to look at this.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: Is this good?
58:31
SPEAKER_01: God, does this make sense to you?
58:33
SPEAKER_01: Lord, do you want me to keep this in?
58:34
SPEAKER_01: Is this going to throw people off?
58:35
SPEAKER_01: Because we can even write a lot of good things and add our own little things in
58:37
SPEAKER_01: that might actually take away
58:39
SPEAKER_01: from the message.
58:40
SPEAKER_01: So it's really important to weigh that stuff in and ultimately let the Holy Spirit lead you.
58:44
SPEAKER_01: Because there can be nice little commentaries that are a great help, obviously.
58:48
SPEAKER_01: And cross-referencing multiple commentaries.
58:49
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say just rely on one, but cross-referencing.
58:51
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, dive deep.
58:53
SPEAKER_01: It's a really important thing.
58:55
SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, it's letting the Lord lead you.
58:58
SPEAKER_01: And really the most important thing is the Holy Spirit of Joshua.
59:00
SPEAKER_01: Meditate on that word day and night.
59:02
SPEAKER_01: And kind of what you said, we used to talk about this even...
59:04
SPEAKER_01: In my last business, with good ideas, we'd let them marinate.
59:07
SPEAKER_01: We'd brainstorm and say, we're not going to talk about this again until Monday next week.
59:11
SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden over the weekend, we'd wake up and all these kind of things.
59:14
SPEAKER_01: I think it's the same with the preacher.
59:16
SPEAKER_01: If you're going to do a sermon on James 2 versus whatever, whatever.
59:21
SPEAKER_01: you should read that a handful of times,
59:23
SPEAKER_01: read some commentaries,
59:24
SPEAKER_01: and then you should maybe just pray about it.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: Then you should just think about it and think about it some more and read it again
59:30
SPEAKER_01: until the point where you could probably walk out on the street and have a
59:33
SPEAKER_01: conversation with anybody about it in depth where you could probably give a sermon
59:36
SPEAKER_01: without notes.
59:38
SPEAKER_01: Not that,
59:39
SPEAKER_01: again,
59:40
SPEAKER_01: you could still use notes because that keeps us on track and a nice point,
59:43
SPEAKER_01: but I think,
59:43
SPEAKER_01: again,
59:43
SPEAKER_01: it all comes back to being spirit-led.
59:45
SPEAKER_01: Don't let legalism get you and say, uh-oh, I can't go up there.
59:48
SPEAKER_01: I could give the sermon right now, but I didn't write down my three sub-points.
59:51
SPEAKER_01: I think you're going to be okay if that happens like that.
59:54
SPEAKER_01: Just do what's best for you as long as you're portraying the message of God,
59:57
SPEAKER_01: of Christ,
59:58
SPEAKER_01: you're relating to the people,
59:59
SPEAKER_01: you're helping them understand it,
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: and you're doing with a lot of prep work on your own part.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening to another episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_00: I hope you've been blessed by this conversation and enriched by some of the themes
1:00:12
SPEAKER_00: and the talking points that Pastor Eric and I discussed and shared.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_00: If you haven't yet,
1:00:17
SPEAKER_00: be sure to click subscribe either on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify or Substack or
1:00:22
SPEAKER_00: wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss an episode.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for all your support.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_00: for all your encouragement.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_00: I am so grateful that I can share these conversations with you and that you can
1:00:34
SPEAKER_00: receive some semblance of blessing and encouragement and enrichment out of them.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: That's the reason why I do them.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_00: So they're here for you.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_00: They're here for your blessing.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_00: And I pray that you are being encouraged in your walk with the Lord,
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: in your faith,
1:00:47
SPEAKER_00: and that he is strengthening you by his grace.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much again for listening, and I'll see you on the next episode.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_00: Blessings.