Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Part 1: Sarma Melngailis of Bad Vegan - What REALLY Happened Behind the Netflix Doc

Transcript

Part 1: Sarma Melngailis of Bad Vegan - What REALLY Happened Behind the Netflix Doc · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I remember being in a small town in Italy, struggling
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: to order coffee. I just couldn't get my point across
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: and it felt like I was missing out on really
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: connecting with the place. It's exactly why Babbel is a
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: game changer. It focuses on practical language skills, things you'd
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: actually say in real life situations, not just textbook phrases.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Imagine chatting easily at a cafe in Rome or asking
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: directions in Tokyo. With Babbel, this can happen in just
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: three weeks if you practice daily for only 10 minutes.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: It's designed by language experts, ensuring you learn conversational skills
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: that natives really use. Plus, you can fit lessons into
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: any part of your day, making it super convenient. So
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: if you've ever wanted to dive back into a language
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: or learn a new one, now is your chance. Visit babbel.com
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: slash pod to save up to 60% off your subscription.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: That's B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash P-O-D. Start your journey to
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. Netflix has gotten
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: pretty good at doing true crime docuseries, and one that
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: particularly struck out to me was Bad Vegan. Have you
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: guys seen the show yet? Do you remember this story?
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: It played out in the news and the tabloids, especially
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: in the local papers here in New York, such as
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: the New York Post, and was featured in Page Six
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: all the time.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: It was a.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Mind-blowing story of New York vegan restaurateur Sarma Melganalis from
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Pure Food & Wine. which would become the number one
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: spot for celeb spotting and delicious vegan food. Sarma is
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: known as a very smart, capable woman who was the
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: face of this business. You couldn't go in there without
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: seeing her. A lot of people would travel from all
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: over the country to meet her. She's a beautiful blonde. Eventually,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Sarma married this sketchy guy, Anthony Strangis, a.k.a. Shane Fox,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: who for several years claimed he worked in special ops
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: and said he had special powers, giving him the ability
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: to secure a passage for Sarma to find utopia and
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: where her dog would live forever. I know this sounds crazy,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: but this is what really happened. Sarma ended up transferring
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: almost $ 2 million from her business accounts at Pure Food
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: and Wine and One Lucky Duck into her personal accounts
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: to give it to this guy, Anthony. Draining the business
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: of all the money and unable to pay employees, workers
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: ended up walking out twice in protest. Ultimately, Sarma and
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Anthony ended up serving time in prison at Rikers on
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: charges of fraud, among other things. After watching all four
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: episodes of Bad Vegan, I think audiences really walked away
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: not knowing if Sarma was a con artist or if
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: she had just like fallen for the wrong dude and
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: had a bad picker and was so psychologically abused that
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: she lost her way. Well, Sarma is here today to
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: tell her side of the story. She has a lot
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: to say. We are separating one interview into two parts
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: because the conversation was just flowing. It was so good.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have her on our show. And
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: you definitely should make sure that you watch Bad Vegan
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: so that you know a lot of, you know, what
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: we're talking about. But I'm going to make sure that
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: she goes through the whole scenario to give you guys
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: an idea if you've missed it, what we're talking about.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: But her story is so unbelievable. And I think she's
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: the perfect guest for Misunderstood because she's someone whose story
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: was narrated by the media and she has not really
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: had a chance to to tell her side and her words. Today,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: we are releasing part one. Tune in on Wednesday for
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: part two. Make sure you listen to both. So check
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: this out. I hope you like it. And I'm so
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: excited that Sarma decided to come on to Misunderstood. Okay,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: so Sarma, thank you so much for joining me. As
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: I was just telling you before, you are someone that's
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: been on my bucket list of people to have on
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: the show. Because I think you are somebody who deserves
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: to be reconsidered. Your story, I feel like, was really misunderstood.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: And for me, it was really obvious that you are
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: somebody whose story really played out and was narrated in
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: the tabloids at first and then was put into this
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: documentary or docuseries that Netflix did, which was a huge hit.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: For people that watched it, for you, probably not so much.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: So at the beginning here, I just want to clear
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: up with you. What were your thoughts on the documentary?
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Well, I ended up kind of having to make my
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: thoughts very clear and outline the things that were sort
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: of blatantly incorrect and clarify what they got wrong, which
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: I did on my website. And I debated how to
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: do that. When it came out, it was just... kind
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: of a, it was like a fire hose in my
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: face and I didn't really, I didn't have any support.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I did end up getting some, some support, but, um,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: you know, I think what happens is a lot of
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: people see it and they're, and they are sympathetic and
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: they understand it. And usually the people, the people who
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: understand it are the people who've been through something like that. Certainly. Um,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: or a lot, most people that work in entertainment and filmmaking,
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: they understand, they see what, what, happened in the documentary
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: that was kind of clearly manipulated. I think the thing
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: that was the most, the thing that was the most
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: kind of messed up was that phone call in the
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: end of it.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: In the end.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it was just so, first of all, it
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: made no sense. And it was really grotesque to kind
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: of show me talking with him that way. You know,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: it's like, if you think back to the beginning, when
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: At the very beginning, the show opens and it shows
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: me on the phone with him and it shows that
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: I'm recording him and he obviously doesn't know it. And then,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: you know, I get off the call and I explain,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: you know, I would never record somebody without their knowing.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Can I curse? Yeah. I'm like, but that motherfucker, fuck him. Right. Yeah. So,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: of course, if you think about that beginning, it's like
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: that clip at the end. Obviously, I'm recording him. I
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: know he's being recorded. And I'm playing a role and
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: I'm just trying to, you know, get him saying bonkers stuff.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: And so all of that was basically for the, you know,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: it was for the film. I was just, you know,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: a couple of phone calls like that that I recorded.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: You know, one of them was quite long and he
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: said all kinds of bonkers things. But, you know, I
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: was definitely pretending and It just was so out of
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: place to put that in the end. It like made
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: no sense whatsoever.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: Did Netflix or the producers ask you to make.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Those phone calls?
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Is that why you were doing it?
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I might have offered or either way,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: but like I was doing it for the show. I
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have had those conversations like that with him.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: I think as a viewer, what was confusing at the
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: end and why there was so much talk after the
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: fact was like, after she's been through all this, if
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: she wasn't in on it, why would she ever talk
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: to him again once she got out of prison?
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: So I think that was also something that I had
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: to kind of, you know, had to write all of
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: that out kind of point by point on my website
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: because people were asking me the same question. Why would
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: you talk to him at all? And that all has
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: to do with, you know, longer story, but it kind
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: of has to do with Leon because, you know, he
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: got out of jail before I had to go in,
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: which to me was so gross. And my biggest fear,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: my biggest, I was terrified that he would go after
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Leon somehow, my dog, because I felt like, you know,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: it seemed like his goal was not necessarily like, let
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: me see how much money I can get out of her,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: which he did. But it seemed like his goal was more,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: let me destroy this person, you know, because he did
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: all these things. It didn't make sense necessarily financially, but
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: it was like, as if he just wanted to completely
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: take me down, burn every bridge, just utterly destroy me.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: And so what's the one thing that he could have
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: really like really, really hurt me is if he'd done it,
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: do some doing something to Leon and he would have
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: known that, that logically Leon would stay at my mom's house.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Like if I'm going to be gone for, you know,
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: almost four months, he, he loves my mom. He, he
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: knew that he would be at my mom's house. It
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: would have been really easy for him to like drive
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: up there. Right. You know, wait nearby for my mom
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: to let him out to go pee and, you know, whistle,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: call him over and that'd be it. So that was
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: like my huge fear. And when he got out, it
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: was just such a weird feeling. And, I was looking
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: at his social media. Cause I was like, what is
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: he doing? What is he saying? It was just so weird.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: And he started saying things that were clearly like meant
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: for me. And so, um, it's, it's a, it's a
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: much longer discussion. And I think anybody who's been through
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: this kind of thing too, you're left with so many
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: questions and you're like, even though you're never going to like,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: you're never going to get those answers. You're certainly never
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: going to get an apology and you're never going to
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: get an acknowledgement, but you're left with so many questions
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: that you're like, You know, it's hard. It's hard to,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of, it's hard to not go there. Yeah. And,
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: and I knew too that like, if he was kind of,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: if he was reaching out, like wanting to talk to me.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: in a positive way, I'm thinking, like, well, for my
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: own safety, for Leon's safety, I would rather let him
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: think that he's kind of still got his hooks in me. Sure.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: You know? And I can, you know, I could pretend.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I could let him think that he might kind of
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: still have a hold on me. And that's safer for me.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: You know, I'd rather know what he's doing, what he's
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: up to. I'd rather.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: So at this point, when you got out of jail,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: out of Rikers, the only thing you really had left
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: was Leon. And that must have been scary. Right. You
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: had at that point lost everything. I think it's important
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: to let to take the listeners back for a second
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: and just let them understand the story and hear how
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: it unfolds. So that if they haven't seen the Netflix
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: or they have, they can hear it through your voice.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Before you started the restaurant, you had gone to college,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: you were educated. Just give me a tiny bit of
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: background about your upbringing.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: I went to like undergrad business school. I went and
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: did what everybody there did, which was came to New
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: York City, worked in investment banking, worked in private equity,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: then worked at a high yield investment fund. And finance
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: really wasn't my world. You know, I could have stayed
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: in that industry and made a boatload of money, but
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: it's like, I didn't feel like I fit in that world.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: And eventually I left and went to culinary school. Um,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: and then.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Did you want to be a chef or did you
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: want to run a business?
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Um, I just, I always loved food and restaurants and, um,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: that was like what I, that was like, that was
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: what I felt drawn to. Um, and so, and then
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: I ended up working with somebody, um, on his restaurants.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: And then we ended up opening Pure Food and Wine together.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Were you already a vegan, a vegetarian? What was your,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: what did you follow?
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, I never in a million years thought
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: I would have turned vegetarian or vegan. And I never,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've never been, I've never really identified with
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: the label.
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: a treat. With eight flavors to choose from, you can
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: choose the flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: But I did very quickly. It was all the result
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: of sort of one dinner, and we were... this guy
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: and I were kind of exposed to it at the
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: same time. And we were working on a different concept
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: to open something. And once we learned about it, the
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: more we learned and read about it, and then also
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: tried going raw, not just vegan, but raw. So everything
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: we ate was like, uncooked and fresh. And we felt
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: like totally different people felt And I already ate really well.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Like I already ate a lot of fresh fruits and
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: vegetables and I didn't eat a bunch of crap or
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: junk food. And we just felt so much better. And
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: then we decided to do the restaurant.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: With that concept. Yes.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Especially because there was no, nobody was doing it in
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: like a high end kind of way. And so that's
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: what we wanted to do. And the vision was really,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: you know, to create a restaurant that appeals to everybody,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: you know, so it's good. And when it was open,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: I think on any given night, if you, if we'd
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: like taken a poll, like who here is a vegan,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: probably less than half the people, I'm sure, you know,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: so many of our regulars just, they came there the
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: same way they might, you know, you might go to
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: a sushi restaurant one night, you might go for, you know,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Indian food another night, and then you come to Pure
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Food Wine and you have our food. So people really
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: appreciated it. not just because it was vegan.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that's important to note because a
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: lot of people that are not from New York and
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: were not familiar with the restaurant maybe don't realize that
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: and thought it was just this vegan place. But it
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: was like a hotspot in New York, a place to
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: be seen, a place to see a lot of celebrities.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: But not only that, the food was good. So you
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: could eat stuff that you wouldn't ever eat at another
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: time in your life if you were not vegan or raw.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: And you would be like, oh, wow, this tastes.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really, it was unique. It was really satisfying.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: It was fresh. And we had, you know, we had
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: a really good wine list. Joey, who was in the film,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: you know, curated an amazing wine list. Our desserts were like,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: were really good. And again, I can say like the
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: desserts were phenomenal. I wasn't the one coming up with them.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: You know, people sometimes would be like, you're such a genius.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Your food's amazing. And I'm like, I, at that point,
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: you know, I could take credit for like, recognizing talent
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: and developing it, but it was all the staff and
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: the employees who came up with the recipes. Like, I
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: feel like I can brag about it because I'm bragging
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: about them, not about me.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: So, and that brings up a good point. You were
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: not back of house, even though that's what you may
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: have studied. In culinary school, you became front of house.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: You were really known as the face of the business.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: People ended up coming to see you. What was that like?
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: In the beginning, I was back of house, kind of.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, there were periods of time where, like,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: I'd step back there and help out. And so I
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: was sort of both. But I wasn't, like, I wasn't
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: the one creating recipes. I would just work with them,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: you know. sometimes I'd suggest things or they would come
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: up with new things and I'd say, well, maybe tweak
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: it this way or that, but it was really, um,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: and I, I do feel like I was good at
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: recognizing who was really talented. Yeah. Um, because we never
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: hired somebody from the outside, whoever came up to be
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: like a chef or a sous chef or the pastry
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: chef had always sort of started, um, you know, in
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: a regular sort of a line cook type position and
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: then kind of work their way up. Um, So yeah,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, it really was a special place. And there's
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: something about that location and the beautiful garden in the back,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: which is unique because it's really quiet back there. It's
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: not like, you know, so many restaurants in New York,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: you're like eating on the street. Now you're literally eating
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: on the street with like all those outdoor spots, but
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: even just on the sidewalk, and it can be really noisy.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: But that Irving Place location is oddly quiet, even though
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: you're just like a couple blocks from Union Square. And
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: the garden's just beautiful, the trees, and we hung lights
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: in the trees. And just something about that space felt,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: you know, was really special.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: What was it like running front of the house?
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Well, I also, you know, my role was so, I guess,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: kind of hard to define, you know, because I, again,
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: there were managers running, kind of running the front of
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: house in terms of like scheduling and service and all that. Um,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: but you know, one of the things that I think
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: contributed to my being in a sort of vulnerable state when, um,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: I call him Mr. Fox because he sort of told
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: me his name was one thing. Then it turned out
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: his name was something else. And I don't really like
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: saying his name. And so I just call him Mr. Fox.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: It's like a character, but, um, that's what I call him. Um, yeah. So, um,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: you know, I had to do a lot of talking
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: with guests and kind of that whole sort of schmoozing thing,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: which wasn't something I natural at. I didn't love doing that. Um,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: but you know, very often people, people come from all
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: over the world sometimes, you know? And so somebody would
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: be like, Oh, I came from all the way from wherever, um,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: you know, and they wanted to talk to me. So
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: what am I going to do? Say no. So I
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: spent a lot of time, you know, engaging with, customers,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: you know, sometimes people I knew regular. So there's a
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: lot of like being social and talking. And so that
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: felt really kind of exhausting to me, like just really draining. And,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: you know, so I would just go home and feel
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: kind of like depleted. And, you know, I think what
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I really needed was like the kind of partner that
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: helps you with the business at that sort of like,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: you know, partner level.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Right sure you felt like you were doing a lot
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: of it alone i understand that this episode is brought
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: to you by better help sometimes in life we're faced
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: with tough choices and the path forward isn't always clear
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: i personally have been through a lot of trying times
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: in my life trauma grief for example i think those
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: are universal themes that people can really understand I lost
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: my fiance, Andy, in 9-11, and the pain was unbearable.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: Since then, I've gone through other traumas that didn't feel
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: as big, but I still needed to talk to somebody,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: and having somebody I didn't know that well but was
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: really good at listening felt like the right thing to do,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: and it was so helpful to me. I love that
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: I can have someone to talk to that isn't one
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: of my close friends that I can just confide in
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: and feel like it's between us. If you're thinking of
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: I signed up for this just the other day. I've
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: already been matched to the most perfect therapist for me.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: I'm excited because I've already touched base with them and
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: I have my first appointment in a couple of days.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: So I will let you guys know how that goes,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: but I'm super excited to try this service. Let therapy
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: be your map with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash understood today
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: dot com slash understood. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: slash understood and get on your way to being your
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: best self. so at some point the guy you started
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: this business with leaves or something right and then.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah after the first year um so we had just
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: published a cookbook and then um yeah there's a whole
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: story there but he left um and so i was
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: running the restaurant on my own and then i also
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: had launched one lucky duck as um We renamed the
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: juice bar and the takeaway one Lucky Duck. We had products.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: We were selling them in Whole Foods. You know, it
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: ended up being in like 30 plus Whole Foods stores,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: all these other stores. We couldn't kind of keep up
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: with the demand. And all these people would come to
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: me and be like, this is an amazing brand and
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: this needs to be, you know, national. And it was
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: like all this opportunity was coming at me. And what
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: was complicated is I had, you know, Jeffrey, the backer
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: in the restaurant, Yeah, but I had started One Lucky
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Duck kind of like on my own and I launched
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: this e-commerce website and really it all needed to be
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: combined because the businesses were really intertwined and it really
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: needed to be combined. And so I had found some
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: people that were going to put money in and we
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: were going to recapitalize and, you know, I set up
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: like a new holding company that would own all of it.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: And then it was 2008 when there was like financial crisis.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: And so people kind of suddenly didn't have the money
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: they thought they'd have. And Jeffrey, you know, understood that
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I had wanted to consolidate everything. So he agreed to
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: sell me basically sell me the restaurant for, you know,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: what had gone into it. So it was a couple
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: million dollars. So basically, I owed him that money. But
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: then I owned and operated the restaurant all on my own, right?
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: His company was no longer involved from like a management perspective.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: So you had some debt there, obviously, that you had
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: to repay, but it was to Jeffrey.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: Yes. And I also, like, even coming into that, I
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: had debt from my situation with the guy before. Okay.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Because of his business.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, you took on that debt.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: That wasn't, yeah, that's a whole other story. So as
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: a result of.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: But it seemed manageable, the debt, because you had this
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: asset now and you could make money. Yeah, it was manageable.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was manageable. And there was sort of You know,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: it was understandable debt the same way that some people have,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: you know, student loans or whatnot. It's like everybody looks
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: at that and they understand it. It's like, okay, you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: you're– so.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: And you were doing your best to repay this debt
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: monthly or whatever it was and you would go to
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Chatterell and you would give him a check here, $ 10, 000, $ 100, 000,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: whatever it was.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was so– like he knew– you know,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: he knew I was trying to make the business work
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: especially and then, you know, it was– 2008, like so
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: many restaurants in New York closed and we didn't, you know,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: and I also, you know, a lot of that time
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I didn't take any salary myself for a long time.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: So I wasn't paying, you know, I was late on
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: my own rent and, um, you know, but we made it, we,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: you know, staff was always paid. And I think, you know,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: because the restaurant was really unique, we did, we did
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: all right. It's not like people stopped coming.
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: So, um, And you were probably getting a lot of
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: press for the celebrities that did go in there, right?
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, I would see on page six a lot
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: who was there. I mean, can you name some of
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: the people that would come in often or that have
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: been there?
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the most memorable guests were like Bill Clinton.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: You know, that was exciting. He came in a few times.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: You know, Howard Stern, who then ended up like talking
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: about it the next day on the air. I think
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: they put a little clip of that on Bad Vegan, but.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: a treat. With eight flavors to choose from, you can
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: choose the flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, I saw lots of like musicians and
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: actors and, um, I think one of the things we
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: did well too was that we didn't, we were very
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: careful about people's privacy.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: So sometimes things ended up on page six. Um, usually
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: that was sort of like bigger, I don't know, like,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: like Janet Jackson or.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Um, I can't think of who else was in page six, but, um.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: But we had a lot of really big names there,
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: and we just were very– I was always very protective
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: of them. So, like, I would watch, kind of stand
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: way back. And, you know, like, if I saw another
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: customer get up to, like, approach the table, I would just, like,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: glide in between and be like, can I help you?
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: So I was really protective of people's privacy. Yes. And
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: we had a private dining room in the back, too,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: that sometimes we used for, you know, bigger names who
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: came in that might want some privacy. Right. So– Yeah.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: So now at this point in your life, you, it
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: doesn't sound like you were dating anybody and you end
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: up getting your beloved Leon. Tell me the story of
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: how you.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Um, I was, I did, I had, I had a boyfriend,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: so he was, um, but it was such a, it
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: was the best relationship. Um, because I had, I'd been
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: through a challenging relationship with the guy who I opened
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: the restaurant with and that was like very difficult. Um,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: and then I, I met this guy who was much younger, um,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: And we lived together for four years. No drama. We
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: never fought. He was kind of like an old soul.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: You know, really creative, wise, like such a good person.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Loved his family. We'd go back to Colorado where he
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: was from. And it was just a really good relationship.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: And I knew I was sort of reluctant in the
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: beginning because I thought, you know, I was 31. I was,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I think I was 34 and he was 21 when
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: we met. Okay. And so I just thought like, well,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: this is not going to work because he's going to like,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: you know, he's going to find somebody younger and like, that's,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: that's it. And that's going to, that's going to hurt. Yeah.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: But he sort of, you know, he said to me, like,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: you know, he kind of made these arguments like, well,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: maybe I'm worried that like some, you know, some guy
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: is going to show up in a fancy suit and
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: sweep you off your feet. Cause he was sort of a,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: you know, like a young skateboarding kind of scrappy, really
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: talented musician, but anyway, just a lovely souls. And then
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: he's also made the very wise argument that like, you know,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: we could both like get hit by a bus next
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: week or a meteor could hit the earth. So if
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: we want to hang out with each other, why wouldn't
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: we hang out? And I was like, Oh, that's a
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: good point. Okay. And then, you know, four years we
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: spent together. So, um, um, but I knew, I mean,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: I knew going into it that like eventually, um, It's
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: not going to last, which was all right because I
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: didn't– I wasn't looking to get married or have kids,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: you know. So I had that sort of.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Would you bring him into the restaurant with you?
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Did the staff know him? All the time. They all
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: loved him. So he actually had for a little bit
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: worked at the juice bar. But then we were like, ah,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: that's too awkward. And so I hired his best friend, Jonathan.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: And so also like his– so his best friend, Jonathan,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: worked there, became a manager, like such a good guy.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: All his friends were great. They were all friends with
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: everybody at the restaurant. Um, he was there all the
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: time and I loved like, you know, I loved introducing
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: him to people. I would hold his hand. I looked
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: happy in his presence, you know, like I was excited
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: when he, you know, sometimes he, I'd be at the
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: restaurant and, and he'd get off work and be like,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: all right, I'll come by. And he'd ride his bike
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: over and show up all sweaty and I'd be excited.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: You know, it was just such a huge contrast to
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: the way things were with Mr. Fox. So that's why,
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: you know, my staff really knew like, That there was something.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: This is weird because it was so different with this guy.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, but again, I knew it was
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: going to kind of end eventually. And then, yeah, it
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: was 2010. So we'd been together for about three and
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: a half years, I think. And that's when I got Leon. Okay. Which,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: you know, was really helpful because then we ended up
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: splitting up and having a dog is really.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: It's really helpful.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: It's really helpful.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So you have this dog. How do you
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: meet Mr.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Fox?
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: You're single. You're working all the time.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: I was working all the time. I was really– I'd
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: never been heartbroken in my life. Like I just never
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: experienced that kind of intense heartbreak. And so I just–
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: and I was overworked. I was just exhausted. I was overworked,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: really sad, kind of depressed. And, you know, just– Would
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: come home at night, spend time with Leon. And then
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: I had strangely, like, at some point before befriended Alec Baldwin,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: we sort of spent some time together and became close.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: And then he met Valeria at the restaurant.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Oh, right.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And actually, so I ended up getting... Leon after
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: I met Alec. And the reason I got Leon is
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: because I was trying to convince Alec to get a dog.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I was so overworked and exhausted. Like I thought,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I can't, it didn't work. never occur to me to
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: get a dog. Like it just didn't even occur to me.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: And so I was trying to convince him to get
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: a dog because I thought like, you know, he's alone.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I was, yeah, I was like, you need to get
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: a rescue dog. Like it'll bring love into your life. It'll, Why?
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Was he having conversations with you about being lonely or
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: did he come into the restaurant alone or something?
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: What made you do that? No, I just thought, you know,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: I just thought he should have a dog, you know. And, yeah,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: he was single at the time. And so I would
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: send him, you know, I'd be like, this dog, this dog,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: this is a cute dog. And then I stumbled on
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: this picture of a dog who was named Quinn in
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: a shelter. And there was something about his picture and
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: there was something about it that I was like, I
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: was like this is the dog oh my god you
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: have to get this dog look how cute whatever you
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: have to get this dog and he wasn't really interested
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: in getting a dog and then I just kept thinking
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: about this dog it was like there was something that
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: was grabbed me and I didn't know what it was
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: and I remember one night I woke up at like
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: I woke up in the middle of the night and
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I was crying about the dog my boyfriend was there
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: and he was like yeah what's wrong and I was
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: like I don't know I keep thinking about this dog
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I just I don't know what it is I keep
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: thinking about the dog and um And then I had
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: this thought, this cat that I had that I was
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: very bonded to. You know, I had two cats. They
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: were brother and sister. But the boy cat, we were like,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: you know, we had that thing. And he died. And
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: he had died in March of 2010. And I was
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: laying in bed thinking like, this dog Quinn, they said
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: is five months old.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: March.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Huh, he must have been born in March. And I just,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know. But anyway, so.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: The signs aligned for you with Leon.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And it really, it's hard to explain, but
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: it felt like I had no choice. And so then
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, I'm just going to print out
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: the application. Just go look at where the shelter is
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: and just in case. And then I finally was like,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: all right, well, I just, I'm just going to go
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: see him. I was like on the way, I'm just
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: going to buy a collar. And then I, you know,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: I went to see him at the end of the day. And, um, um,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: and then I was like, okay, I have to, have
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: to get him. Right. And so I, you know, I
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: knew I was going to come back the next morning and, um,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: and I did, I came back the next morning and
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: I was like on the subway crying. I don't know
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: why I was crying really hard because I was so
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: freaked out. Like as if, you know, early that morning,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: somebody else came and adopted him. I would have been devastated.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: So it just was a feeling like I'd never had.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: It was like something was pulling me to get him.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: And Again, you know, I lived in my office. So
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: my sort of corporate office, I had like four or
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: five people that worked in what would be the living
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: room of an apartment. My bedroom was in the back
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: and an office in the back. And we had product
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: all over the place, computers, cords, stuff, like getting a
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: five-month-old pit bull, really. But I had to. And I
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: got lucky, too, because he, for some reason, was a
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: very good boy and didn't. He wasn't one of those
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: dogs that like chews up everything. So it worked out. Right.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: But it just seemed kind of people would say to me,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: why are you getting a, you know, why don't you
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: adopt an older dog or a small dog? And I
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: was like, that's not the point. I don't want a dog.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: It's just that one. So Leon clearly meant a lot
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: to me. And I'd written this very long blog post
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: about it, which I think, you know, Mr. Fox would
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: have read everything I'd written online and then sort of
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: really understood my psyche and what mattered to me and
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: what was important to me and therefore kind of, you know,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: what I might be vulnerable to. And so I think
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: he later sort of, you know, weaponized a lot of
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: that information. Right.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: So let's get into how you met Mr.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Fox. So then what happened was Alec joined Twitter. He's
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: very funny. You know, he's very witty and quick and
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: he's very funny on Twitter. And he had just joined.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: And I think what must have happened is this guy, Mr. Fox,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: somehow like early on had some back and forth banter
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: with Alec who then followed him. And so by the
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: time I sort of saw this person interacting with Alec,
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I sort of thought they knew each other. Right.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Like he must be safe.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Right. He must be safe. I thought they must have
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: somehow known each other. And Mr. Fox, you know, red
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: flag number one, was one of those people who You know,
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: his handle wasn't his name. Nothing really. There wasn't, like,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: a name and a person and a bio. You know,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: very often, like, you know, I'm on Twitter. My name,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: my birthday, like, links to my website. Sure, sure. You
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: can know who I am.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Transparent.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: He wasn't.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So he wasn't. But I just assumed, you know,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: it just gave him, like, some legitimacy that I thought, like,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Alec was somehow friends with him. And so we would
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: sort of banter back and forth. He followed me. I
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: followed him. DMs. And he just seemed very intriguing. So
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: he would just drop these little things kind of, you know,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: implying that like he's somebody important or implying that something
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: that got me really curious. And so, you know, it
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: started this sort of flirtatious back and forth. And then
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: we started like playing words with friends together. And then
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: we talk and the message is there. And then it
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: went to like, then we exchanged numbers and we started talking.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: And it was this long process. And then, you know,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: he'd show me like, a picture that was kind of
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: like half his face, you know. And, of course, it
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: was like angled in a way that he didn't look
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: like he later looked.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Right. So he looked chiseled instead of heavy.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: He looked chiseled and had this like nice mouth and a,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: you know, five o'clock shadow. And then it was like
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: a little more and he had sunglasses on. And, you know,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: so it's just this like.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: know about the drawer. The drawer. The drawer. Just the
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: one square before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: You deserve a treat. With eight flavors to choose from,
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: you can choose the flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Almost hooked the way you would get hooked on a
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: TV show if you're like getting hints and you kind
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: of want to know more. Yeah. Right.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: And he said his name was Shane Fox, correct?
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Shane Fox. So, yeah, it just kind of went from there.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: And I think it was strategic on his part to,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: you know, to kind of, keep up this communication for
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: quite a while before we actually met in person. Because
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: by the time we met in person, like, he had
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: sort of did a number on me such that I
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: got kind of hooked before I'd even met him. Right.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Which is kind of embarrassing to admit that I felt
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: that way. But he got me at a time when,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: you know, I was super depressed. My– Already crappy self-esteem
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: was like even crappier, you know, because my younger boyfriend
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: left and moved to Colorado and all his friends moved
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: back to Colorado. And so I just felt sort of
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: like abandoned. And, you know, I remember I like had
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: this crush on this other younger guy and he completely
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: ignored me. And I just like I was just feeling
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: like crappy.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: So you were in a place in your life where
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: somebody could swoop in, say all the right things, and
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: it would get you.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And it would be there. And it wasn't like.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: he wasn't my type really, but he was such a contrast. Right.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: So that like, if I felt sort of depressed over my,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: my younger boyfriend who, you know, was very chill and
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: easygoing and, um, you know, it worked so well because
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: he wasn't like the jealous type. He was never, you know,
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: he wasn't possessive. He wasn't jealous. I couldn't handle any
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: of that. He was very like, you know, I'd have
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: business meetings with like men and he was fine with it, which,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: was great because I was fine when he would go
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: out with his friends like it was a very um
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: like really just healthy good relationship so um but Mr.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Fox was like you know I'm a big strong guy
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: and sort of implied this whole military background and um
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: you know like he could take care of stuff and
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: and he also I think he fed me a lot
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: of stuff that he must have known I wanted to
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: hear so you know he would kind of praise me
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: about the business and like you're gonna change the world
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: and you're doing something so important and, you know, it's
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: so impressive what you've done and would really kind of
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: build up, you know, feed that part of me that
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: maybe wanted, wanted that, you know? So whatever, he knew
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: all the right things to say.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: So he finally comes to New York and you meet
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: in person. Yeah.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: And it was like, not what I expected, but it
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: was just, I mean, I, I write all of this
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: stuff in detail in my book and I think I probably,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: you know, talked about it in Bad Vegan. But after
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: that first weekend, never mind that I slept with him. Gross.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. But I had so much invested in it.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, at that point, were you like attracted to
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: his personality and you felt like you had chemistry?
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, that absolutely happens. Yeah. And also like when
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: I first met him, he didn't look the way he
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: looked in a lot of the– You know, he didn't
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: look the way he looked later on. So he kind
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: of looked like... He sort of looked like the way,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: you know, some football players are like... especially the defensive
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: ones are, like, really, like, meaty. And he also implied that, like,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: he had an injury. He was, of course, very vague
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: about what the injury was. But he implied that he had, like,
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: some injury. So he wasn't, like, in his top shape,
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: you know. And I'm like, I don't want to be
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: all shallow.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: You know, so I'm not going to be like, oh,
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: you're blubbery. Like, screw you.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: No, but I've definitely met someone online and then you–
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: have such a chemistry in your personalities that when you
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: meet them, if they don't look like somebody you would
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: say is your type, it almost doesn't matter because you're
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: so into their personality. So I could totally understand.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Although it's like knowing what I know now, I would
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: advise against that because I feel like when you're in
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: somebody's presence, because I've found people attractive who aren't objectively
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: good looking people because of like pheromones and because they're,
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: you know, also their personality, but it's like, it's like
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: a chemical thing, you know? And I think also, um,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: when you're in somebody's presence, you might get that kind
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: of something not right here.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: That red flag might appear when they could hide it
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: over the phone. Exactly.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Or in text.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: So how soon did you start bringing him in the restaurant?
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's another like should have been a red
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: flag for me is that like I didn't want to
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: bring him into the restaurant. And after that first weekend,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: I was sort of like I was really confused. And
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, I guess that's not what it
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: he's not really what I thought. And that's kind of
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: that's it. I just thought like, well, yeah, that's it.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to see him again. But then he
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: kind of, you know. those hooks that were already in there,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: you know, he kind of pulled me back.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: And, um, and then I, I don't know how long
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: it was, but maybe it was a few weeks later
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: and it was like, Oh, all right, whatever. And he
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: came back and then, um, and then it just was
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: this process of like, cause he didn't live in New York.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: He lived in, um, town in massachusetts and.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: He was very vague and he kept saying he had
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: to go off and do something for oh yeah he
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: was very vague which was what in special ops or
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: something did he actually say that that's what he did
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: or he just.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Was never very clear about it right and again another
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: big red flag it's very convenient for sort of a
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: con artist to say that they work in some kind
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: of clandestine thing because you can't like go ask they
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: don't have a linkedin profile right And I remember even
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: asking about why he didn't have anything online and he
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: had some excuse about his work and this and that.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: It was all bullshit. But, you know, if you meet
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: somebody and you can't kind of verify who they are
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: and what they do and you don't meet their friends
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: and you don't see where they work and kind of
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: get to see their history. Huge red flag.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: You know, just.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: Or at least you should find out about those things
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: for sure and get some references, recommendations, something so you
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: know exactly who you're dealing with.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: So at some point you start bringing him into the
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: restaurant and your staff does not take well to him, correct?
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: No. Well, the thing is he's really– he was very charming,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: very funny and engaging. And so some people like, you
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: know– Bonnie, who was in Bad Vegan, she's very funny,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: like one of the funniest people I know. And so
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: they would kind of banter back and forth. And, you know,
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: it was very funny and they got along. He got
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: along really well with Joey. And so it's like he
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: clearly tried to get some people on his side. And
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: the same thing, you know, he befriended one of my
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: friends and kind of got that person on his side.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: And then if there are people who he knew didn't
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: like him, he'd sort of find a way to get them,
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: you know, out of your life. I mean, that's, that's
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: something that these people do as they'll, um, you know,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: they'll find a way to isolate you. Um, and if you're,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: if you tend to be the type of person that
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: is kind of introverted and you don't have a lot
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: of like very close friends, um, who are kind of
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: all up in your business all the time, you know,
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: it's like if you have that best friend that like
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: knows everything about your life who, you know, would watch
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: this happening. and would see the red flags perhaps. So
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: if you're like me and you're kind of more introverted
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: and you don't have a lot of people in your life,
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: like I got a lot of, you know, friends and
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: people I was kind of close with, but I just
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: didn't have time for a lot of that stuff. And
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: I didn't have that like lifelong best friend the way,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: you know, my sister has that lifelong best friend since college. They, well,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: not lifelong, but that person that just knows everything about
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: your business. So, um, that just makes it easier for
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: them to kind of isolate you where nobody's pointing out
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: the red flags. So yeah, he did that. And then,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: you know, he, yeah, it just sort of like, I
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: guess it started at one point, him asking me for money.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: And I don't even remember exactly like what the circumstances were,
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: how much it was. I remember it was on the phone.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: I remember he acted like It was just this, like, one-off, like,
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: I just need it right now. And it's, like, almost
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: he acted like it was, like, life or death, you know.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: And I'm, like, well, I can help him, I guess. Sure,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: At this point, did you think you were in love
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: with him? Were you married to him yet?
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: No, no. But I guess I did, you know, whatever
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: kind of hooks were in there, you know, he did
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: get me sort of attached to something. And I think.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: And you wanted to help him.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think what they do is they find
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: a way to get you attached because what he did
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: is almost exactly like what cult leaders do and the
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: way that cult leaders will pull somebody into a cult.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: It's just that in this case, it's very one-on-one. And
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: so he's sort of almost like in this very slow, deliberate,
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: nuanced way like eventually made it seem like all the
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: things that I really wanted to achieve in my life
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: and my biggest hopes and dreams, I could realize like
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: he was going to help me get there and he
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: could help me get there. And it, um, and it
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: like over time morphed into something weirder and weirder where
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: like he started talking about things that were not like normal,
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: not of this earth. Right. Like very culty. The whole
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: thing that they ran with, um, you know, about like
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: Leon can live forever and, which they sort of exaggerated, but, um,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: and that again was not something he like came out
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: with out of the gate. You know, he's like, it
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: was just very slowly over time. And he would do
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: these things that made me like, he'd do things where
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: I was like, how did he know what I was thinking?
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: How did he know who I was talking to? How
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: did he know this? How did he know that? And
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: some of it, I still can't quite explain, but some
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: of it, when I look back, it's like, You know,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: like eventually he got into my email. Another thing these
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: guys will do is like they're all over your devices, everything.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: So he would pretend it was he had these powers
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: to know you and know what you were doing when
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: in reality he was hacking into your email or your
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: text to see what was going on in your life
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: and then would act like he knew it all.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: Right. Or like, you know, he might.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Like one time I think he must have read an email,
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: quickly deleted it, and then like said to me something
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: about like so-and-so's gonna call and then boom.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: They think you're done for the day but they don't
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: know about the drawer the drawer just the one square
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: before bed or two you know nobody's watching you deserve
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: it With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: the flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: Don't ring and that person would call. And they clearly
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: probably said in an email, like, I'll call you in
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: five minutes. But he had gone in there and deleted
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: it before I saw it. Things like that. Right. So,
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: but yet meanwhile, sort of more and more, I'm kind
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: of like, huh, what? Confused and confused. not knowing how
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: to explain those things. Um, so yeah, he just kind
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: of dragged me into a weirder and weirder place. And
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: then like somehow, even after he borrowed that money and
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: then I didn't get it back. And then I don't
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: quite remember what happened, but there were multiple times where
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: I was just like, that's it. I can't deal with
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: this guy. Like, and I would kind of mentally think like,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: all right, well, I'm just going to cut my losses. Um,
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: but then he would, you know, come back around and
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: he'd be funny and say things and, and then he'd
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: be like, well, I'm going to come back and I'm
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: going to bring you money, you know, like, and then
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: I'd think like, well, I really need it. You know,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: like I want to get the money back, lose that money.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: I could have paid, you know, you know, I could
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: have given that as a bonus. I could have done
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: something for the business with it. I could have paid
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: more debt with it. Um, So I'd let him back in,
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: you know, and then maybe he'd give me like some money.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: But then somehow by the end of the weekend when
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: he left, like I'd have loaned him more money. I
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: don't know. It's like the problem is that I don't–
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: like I wish I could have somehow magically had like
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: recordings of what he would say to me. Because it
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: seemed like whenever he was in my presence, like he
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: would get me to do stuff. Whereas um, you know,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: he deleted all of our emails. Um, he kind of
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: took my phones and so I didn't have all record
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: of all our text messages. I was able to get some, um,
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: but I actually was able to recover our G chats.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: You know, people used to chat in Gmail.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: So I And when I'm reading them, it's like, I
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: keep talking back to him. I'm like, you're a liar.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: Fuck you. Like, just, you know, a lot of that
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: is in there. And so even me reading that stuff
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: after the fact is sort of trying to make sense
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: of like, But still, how did it get that far? Yeah. Like,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: how am I sitting there going, you're a liar. You
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: said this before. Why should I believe you now? Fuck you.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: You're full of shit. Blah, blah. I'd be like making
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: fun of him, making fun of his stories. And then
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: it's like, then I look at my records and it's like,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: you know, I sent him a wire for 50 grand,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: like these outrageous numbers.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: And just it's, you know, over time, it's like your
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: mind gets compromised. And then... you're sort of like you're
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: trapped because what happens is the worse they kind of
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: pull you into this bad situation, the more you feel
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: like the only way out is through. Right. And so,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: and then it just gets worse and worse and worse.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: And so I'm kind of like psychologically, like you want
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: to believe the thing because that would be like the
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: way out where you get, you know, like, okay, everybody's
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: paid back. I have no debt. I can grow my
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: company however I want. I can pay whoever I want.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: I can, you know, do all these things I've always
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: wanted to do. And I, and I don't have to
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: answer to, you know, cause I was also in a
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: situation where I'd have a lot of like men that
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: would come to the restaurant and be like, Ooh, I
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: want to invest in you and let's grow your business.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: And I'd kind of get my hopes up and then
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: they'd turn out to be kind of creepy. Like, and
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: so I just like so badly wanted to be like
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: independent and empowered to grow the business the way I
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: wanted to because it was also not a business that
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: like I wanted to grow and then sell and do something.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Right. And you didn't want a partner who could, you know,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: change your concept or somebody you had to answer to.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: You didn't want to take money from some guy who
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: wanted something from you.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: Right. And even, you know, and even like I worked
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: in private equity. So I know very often when they
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: invest in brands, They put in a bunch of money,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: open locations everywhere. They're not really what they were. They're
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: not a special, you know, they kind of, the integrity
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: is compromised. And then their whole goal is to make
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: money and flip it. And my goal wasn't to flip it.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to make a bunch of money. I
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: wanted this brand to be something that outlasts me. You know,
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: I like tattooed the logo on my arm. Like, this
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: is me. So, you know, again, it's like he kind
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: of put that fantasy out there and he'd always get
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: me to like, talk about it and he would encourage
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: me to like imagine things and what I want and
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: picture this life. Um, and so, um, yeah.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: So at what point though, did you start to withdraw
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: from the business a little where your employees were like,
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, this isn't the Sarma that we know.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: And you know, that they started to reach out to
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: you and say, Hey, what's going on? Um, you were
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: married at that point.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, and actually that was one of my problems.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: That was one of the things that really bugged me
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: in Bad Vegan is because the director actually, like, spliced
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: audio from one part of an interview with another part
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: of an interview that, like, in a way that was
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: completely not honest because there's one part where I was
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: talking about how I would talk to my accountant about
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: tax consequences of getting a bunch of money because he
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: would always make me think that, like, via some bizarre
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: means he like had access to all these funds. And
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: so he was just going to dump all these funds
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: on me and everybody was going to get paid back
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: and I'd be independent and I could grow my business
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: and blah, blah. So at one point my accountant had said, um,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: you know, well, if you marry him, like, ha ha. Um,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: but that was like, and then months later, um, down
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: the road at some point he, he, he like convinced
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: me to marry him, but I didn't want to marry him.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: And he acted like I'd be protected and like everything
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: he was working on, it would just be so much
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: easier if I married him. And he acted like, I mean,
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: it's embarrassing, but he acted like he was like part
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: of this, like, you know, it's like, is it government?
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: Is it like this, you know, sort of like, I
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: don't I don't even know what to call it. That's
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: the thing. He always kept it very mysterious, but he
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: acted like I'd be protected. And he always kind of
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: kept me weirdly like scared of things that I didn't
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: even really understand. And, and just was like, ah, this
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: would be so much easier if we just got, you know,
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: we got married. And the way that I finally like
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: agreed was like, fine. How romantic is that?
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: Did he get you a ring?
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't care. I don't like, even if I
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: got married now, I don't, I wouldn't want to ring
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: or I wouldn't care about that. But, um, he, um,
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: and so.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: So it was not some big love, love affair.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Oh no. And he got on with me. So we
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: went to, um, we went to city hall to get the,
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: I think you, you get the, you apply for the
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: license and then you're required to wait 24 hours before
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: you actually get married. And so in the interview I said, um,
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: you know, I talked about this and how he sort
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: of convinced me and I didn't, I was like, fine, fine, fine.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: I'll get married. And I was like annoyed. And so
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: we went to city hall, got the license. And then
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: within 24 hours we were married. And so what the
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: director did is he took that bit about me talking
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: to my accountant saying, my accountant saying, well, you know,
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: he could transfer you money easier if you were married.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: And then I say, and then within 24 hours we
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: were married. Right. Well, that's not accurate. Got it. And
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: what that did was that was like another data point. that,
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: you know, either something included or something left out that
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: would give people sort of, you know, somebody watching that
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: would question that or would look at that and think
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: that I was like, Ooh, I'm going to get a
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: bunch of money. So I'm going to marry him. You
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like it just is another thing
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: that would, would give people a reason to question my character. Right.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Well, you weren't either way.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: It just wasn't accurate.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: So it was like, But let's be clear for people that, again,
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: might not know this story. He was promising you all
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: these crazy things. He had said he was looking at
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: an apartment. You guys were looking at an apartment for
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: like $ 15 million.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: Bonkers.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: He went as far as, you know... putting in all
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: the paperwork, right, and having some poor real estate person
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: get really involved to the point where he thought you
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: were going to make an offer and then the money
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: didn't come through, obviously.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Of course, right.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: So there was a number of situations like this where
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: it got your hopes up that your life was going
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: to be better and that you were moving up and
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: he could pay all your debt and it was super
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: easy for him to help you with that. And so
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: he was, you know, giving you all these things to
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: look forward to. And to count on and one by
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: one they kept not coming through, correct?
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: And part of what, so part of the reason why
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: I and sort of people like me is like I
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: couldn't even wrap my brain around like pretending to buy
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: a $ 15 million apartment and allowing me to hire a
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: real estate attorney who I'd worked with before who I
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: ended up having to pay his bill and like brazenly
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: sort of, you know, marching through the apartment, the way
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: he talked to the broker, he got the broker convinced
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: of all this stuff. I thought it seemed like he'd
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: shown the broker something that verified that he had the funds.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: And the broker was like, okay, you know, the broker
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: introduced us to bankers at Barclays. The brokers introduced us to,
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: you know, this very high powered accountant. The broker was like,
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: you know, doing all this stuff. So I'm thinking, oh, well,
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: the broker must have confidence that he has the funds
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: because why would he have us go to this meeting
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: at Barclays where they like practically roll out the red carpet?
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Like we're, I don't know, you know, we have billions
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: of dollars. Right. And, you know, we'd have these meetings with, with, um,
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: these bankers at Barclays as if we're about to dump,
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: you know, as if we're like looking at, you know,
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: what bank should we dump, you know, a bajillion dollars into.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: And I'm sort of like, the whole thing just feels
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: so strange to me. And watching him with such ease,
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: like talking about this stuff, it's like, I can't, I couldn't.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: It was hard not to believe him. Right.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: I didn't quite understand that, you know, now I understand
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: that there's certain personality types that they can stand and
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: On a world stage, for example, and tell the most
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: insane lies and just do it so naturally and not even, like,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: really care. Yeah. There's certain personality types that can do that. And,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: you know, he's obviously one of them. But so most
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: people will, like, you look at that and you don't
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: think that, like, you're like, well, somebody, would he really
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: walk in there and lie? Like, that kind of stuff,
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: that would make me queasy. I couldn't do that.
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: And why would you do that if you were full
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: of shit? And I could never quite make sense of
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: what was really going on. So it was sort of
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: almost easier to believe him. And also, like, if I
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: didn't believe him, then it's like... He would get angry, probably. No,
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: it's like if I did... believe him, then he would
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: be like the cruelest human ever. Because what would he
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: be doing? He would be getting my hopes up, you know,
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: like knowing how badly I felt and knowing, you know,
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: that I was in debt and I was struggling and
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: I worked so hard and this business was my whole life.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: And to get me to like, you know, cause eventually
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: it got really bad where he was having me borrow
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: money from all these people. And so I'm getting more
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: and more in debt. It's awful. And to do that
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: to somebody and make them think that like, there's this,
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: you know, happy ever after, like perfect outcome of not
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: just relief from all the problems that he created. And
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: then the ones that I had originally, which were manageable,
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: it's like, for him to do that would mean he's like,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: that would be the most diabolical thing ever. You know,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: it's like if you, you know, it's like, imagine if
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: you told a parent with a sick child, oh, I
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: have the cure. And like, just do all these things.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: And like, and then, oh, never mind. I was kidding.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: You know, like, you, I mean, that's not a great comparison.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: But that kind of like, who would do that to
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: somebody that would be completely like, Insane. Beyond cruel.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. At what point, though, I think a lot of
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: viewers and then just, you know, to answer the questions
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: in general, for someone who I know people have said
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: to you, you're so smart. How did you get to
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: this point? But like for someone who had their whole
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: life invested in this business and was so good at it,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: loved it, that was their life. It was like your
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: boyfriend kind of, right? It was who you had a
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: relationship with being at work and your staff. I understand
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: that because I have felt that in my past with
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: my past jobs. I.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: You know, I think I want to know how did
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: you kind of relinquish that power and like stop returning messages,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: stop going to the, you know, to the restaurant and
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: being there? How did he have that kind of control
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: over you?
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the things about the restaurant was, you know,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: we were open for more than 10 years. And even
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: like before he came into the picture, You know, if
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: you run a business and you have people that have
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: been there the entire time, right, and everybody's really invested
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: in it, like, just because it feels like they're family
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: and everybody's been there a long time. And so, you know,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: when I was with my boyfriend before, like, I could
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: go to Colorado with him for, you know, I didn't
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: do it all the time. But every once in a while,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: I'd go for five days, 10 days, and I'd be
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: online and kind of in touch with everybody the whole time. But,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I just remember coming back one time, like
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: straight from the airport into the kitchen and just looking
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: around and thinking like, and even saying to this guy, Ben,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: who was a sous chef at the time. And I
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: was like, you know, it's amazing that I can just
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: go away and know that everything's in such good hands
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: and everything's running smoothly. Everything looks good. Everybody's happy. Everything's great.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: You know, I was like, it's amazing. I can do that.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: And he said, he'd worked in other restaurants before and
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: he said, you know, I've worked in other places that
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: were kind of run on fear. And he said, this
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: place is built on love. And I was like, and
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: it was that, it was like, it was that kind
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: of place. And I, you know, it's like, I felt
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: like the weird thing is, it's like I, I would,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: I did very often, I would do almost anything to
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: protect that place. So the idea that he kind of
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: got it all, you know, put me in a situation
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: where I might have thought I was protecting it or
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: thought I was doing something that would sort of, you know,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: ensure our future ended up destroying it. And so he
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: sort of pulled me away more and more.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: And then did it become just hard to respond to
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: messages where people were like, Sarma, I don't understand who
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: this guy is or what you're doing or where you are.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: Is that part of the reason why you would kind
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: of go missing?
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: The only times I went missing, one time I went
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: where I wasn't responding is when he kind of told me, okay,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: this is it. This is the end. It's all coming together. Like,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: this is all going to– I'm going to wrap everything
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: up for us. It's like all, you know, everything is
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: going to get paid back. And he had me go
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: to Florida for some reason by myself. Mm-hmm. And he said,
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: you know, stay off comms. You have to be off comms.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh. He would always talk about stuff as if, like,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: you know, as if he'd been, like, in the military.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: And I'd always be asking him, like, well, can I
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: talk to so-and-so? And he– that's when the restaurant closed
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: the first time.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: And– That's when the employees walked out.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: The employees weren't paid. And, like, I wasn't responding at all.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: And then they walked out.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: Did you know that they were going to walk out?
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: No. If I had known, I would have like, you know,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know what, you know, just done something. Like,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know, gotten back there.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: And to be clear, they walked out because they weren't
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: paid because you had given the money to Mr. Fox, right?
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, all along. And there was no money to
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: pay them.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: He was pulling money out.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: There was like money coming. You know, it was like
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: I'd barely make it to pay them. And it was
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: just this constant like, you know, again– it's like in
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: cults where they're like, Oh, the, this big thing is
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: going to happen and then it doesn't happen. But then
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: the people still believe it and they keep going and
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: they keep going. And so it was a little bit
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: like that. Like, you know, he would tell me, oh
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: my God, all this, you know.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: And you know it's hard to believe it, but you
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: want to believe it. So it's almost worse to say,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: forget it. This doesn't make sense because then you're at
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: square one. You lost all the money. You don't have
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: anything to believe in.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: If you say forget it, like you're not just at
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: square one. You're like... You're behind.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: And also like in a situation that you can't even explain,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: you can't understand like what is going on here. And so...
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: You know, and he would keep saying like, oh, like,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: this is it. You know, the money thing's over. You know,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: it's like as if I was done. Okay, just this
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: one more time kind of thing. So it's almost like,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: you know, weirdly, because it turns out he was gambling
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: away all this money, which is just so gross. But
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: it's almost like that, like what must happen, I assume.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: And I've always like hated gambling, not just because it
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: makes me so nervous and just seems very predatory. And
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: so I'm not somebody that likes gambling, but I understand
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: now that if you were gambling and it was like
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: all the stuff was riding on it and you gambled
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: away all this money, but you keep thinking like, okay, well,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: if I just put this one little bit more in,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: then it'll wash away. Not only will I get it
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: all back, but all the shame of what has happened
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: here is gone, right? So there must have been something
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: like that going on where he would be like, no, no, no, like...
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: This is all going to be over. Like, blah.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: You know, all of this is going to come through.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: And I'd be like, I'm already in such deep shit.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: Like, this is terrifying. Like, okay, I guess.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: But he never got honest with you and said, okay,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: I have a gambling problem. This is where the money
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: is going. Just let me win this back one time.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: It was never transparent like that. It was always about
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: these mystical things.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: Once I knew he was going to a casino, it's
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: like he acted like– He acted like, I don't even
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: know how to explain it. He acted like, almost like
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: the casinos were like his bank. And he did, you know,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: because eventually he brought me there. And I would watch
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: him go to these slot machines and always win, always win.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: And I would see these other people there too being like,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: this guy's got like a magic touch. He always seems
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: to win. And he acted like it was some almost like,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: magical power that he could do that, you know, and
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: I couldn't really explain it. And also when he took
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: me there the first time, it was like everybody treated
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: him like he was.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: Someone, which they do at every casino if you're a gambler,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: but yeah.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: Exactly. So, and I also like, I'm pretty sure, and
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: I always thought that like more people were going to
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: come out of the woodwork once Bad Vegan came out,
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: because I feel like he has to have been taking
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: money from other people too. Mm-hmm. At the same time.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: I think he had all kinds of different things going on,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: and I have some suspicions about it, but I don't
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: know for sure. But I feel like he has to
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: have been working other people at the same... Because he
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: would disappear sometimes for days. And I feel like there
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: has to have been times where... I feel like he
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: has to have been getting money from other people at
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: the same time. And then... And I also, you know,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: I don't understand, like, if he... I don't understand the
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: extent to which, like, he.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: Has some kind of a like illness or he's actually
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: delusional himself or was this just some sort of like
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: sociopathic game you know because they don't really care about
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: money one way or the other it's like oh easy
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: come easy go like it doesn't really phase them the
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: way it kind of freaks out normal people that's why
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: like sociopaths are really good you know wall street traders
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: because that risk Most of us would kind of freak
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: out over taking like these high risks and making bets
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: like that. We would just freak out because losing would
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: be so devastating, whereas they're like, I don't really care.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: you know and because you know having that psychology it's
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: like they almost they need the thrill they need that
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: constant stimulation so also like he would always play you
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: know at at different times like he was always playing
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: like call of duty or like different video games yeah
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: And the more I write about other cases and other situations,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: that's very common. It's like they need that constant like
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: kind of adrenaline thing going on. Right.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: and give us a five-star rating and review. You can
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for the
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: Itching. Burning. Soreness.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 4: When you know it's thrush, you want it gone. Treat
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 4: the cause, not just the symptoms, with Caniston Combi. Ireland's
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: number one thrush treatment brand. Caniston Combi Pestry and Cream
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 4: contain cotrimazole. Always read the label. Number one based on
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: volume sales data. To verify, contact info.ireland at bayer.com.