Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Supporting Women's Wellbeing in the Workplace: Emma Hall's Journey in Financial Planning

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Supporting Women's Wellbeing in the Workplace: Emma Hall's Journey in Financial Planning · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: And today on the Financial Planner Live podcast, I'm joined by Emma Hall.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: She is a financial planner at 75.3 and she's also the host of the PFS podcast called Wealth and Women, which we produced, and it's a fantastic podcast dedicated to attracting more women to the financial plan.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: If you haven't heard it, go and check it out.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: And today we talk about a really important subject well-being in the workplace.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: We talk about menopause every menopause.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We talk about mental health policies.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: We're going to quite a deep discussion about it and we're both in agreement.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: It's a bloody good thing to have in your financial planning business.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoy this episode today, emma welcome back to the Financial Pl live podcast.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: How are you?
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: I'm really well.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Thank you, yeah, really well.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: It's been a very busy year.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Very busy has it.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can echo that.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: I suppose the busiest, craziest year of my life.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Ups and downs and roundabouts and all sorts of things.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: So what's been going on in your world then, since we, since we last spoke, or what's been going on this year?
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: um.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: So I think the the biggest thing that's happened since we last spoke is, um, I won the chartered financial planner of the year award at the pfs awards last november, which was an absolutely amazing experience.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Uh, still in a bit of disbelief, to be honest, that I was awarded that and, quite embarrassingly, it was the lovely Claudia Winkleman that presented me with the award.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: I proceeded to go up on stage and snatch the microphone out of her hand in my excitement and give, like a flubbering speech, a thank you speech to all of the audience as if I'd won the Oscars.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: So my memory's a little bit tainted, if I'm honest, but it was, yeah, it was a really, really good day.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Claudia Winkleman is such a lovely lady.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she made it very special.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Fantastic, because that is no arraign the amount of women that have won that award with the PFS, I think it's more women have won it, haven't they, I think?
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the majority of the winners over the last few years, certainly I think, the last three years in a row of being female winners yeah um, which is, yeah, really good achievement.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: We're doing good things well, they championed women in financial planning, and that's.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: They got in contact with me and said look, can you produce uh, a woman's podcast called again uh wealth and women wealth and women.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: I always get it the wrong way around yeah we here at the financial planner life got stuck into and had the um, the luxury of being a fly on the wall really to a conversation between four women within financial planning for a short series that the pfs produced.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: If you haven't heard of anybody listening, go and go and look it up and have a listen, because it's fantastic and I think also for me.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: I interview women all the time on the podcast, but I'm a guy interviewing a woman on the podcast, right.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Being able to sit back and listen to four women talk about their careers, their experiences and connection together was completely different.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I hadn't heard anything like it before and it made me think of the trap podcast for bloody blokes on the.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: You know classic for middle-aged men on the I think I'm being generous there for middle-aged men on the podcast and instead we had four women on the podcast and for me it was completely different and refreshing.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: And what was your experience here?
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: What did you take away from it?
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: I thought it was a brilliant experience.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, I the only other podcast I've ever done is obviously the one I did with you a few years before and, um, it's something that all four of us are really passionate about is trying to encourage more women into the industry, trying to get more women to think about being a financial planner or a financial planning coach.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: I think you know we have characteristics that make us good at the job and I think that by telling our own personal stories, you know the conflicts we've had, the tough times and the nice happy stories.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: I think it becomes more relatable.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Um, I know, when I certainly started in the industry many moons ago back in 2006, there weren't any female advisors in the company that I trained at, so there weren't really any any women there that we could sort of look up to and learn from, because I think we are all human, we do have different experiences.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: So I feel that maybe women have certain types of experiences different to men.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: So to have somebody who you can look up to and literally see and hear from someone who's done it and and developed and carved out a successful career in financial planning, I think that's a really good thing.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: But to have four of us in a room who've all achieved it is brilliant, and we've all been talking recently about the number of personal messages we've received from women out there to say thank you for leading the way, clearing the path, being very honest in our experiences, and so it's feeling amazing.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: We are trying our best now to push forward some more episodes and we're all very genuinely interested to hear from people out there about what are the topics they think they're important and relevant today for us to be talking about yeah, I love it.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: All those people that have reached out push back and say that that's what I do these days.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: It's like what else do you want me to talk about?
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: You know who would you like me to interview?
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: What questions would you like me to ask?
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: I think um, you know, when I got, when I got approached about producing it for you guys it was girls I got really excited because I knew it, I know it's needed and I knew it was such a niche that I knew people would be interested in it Men as well, you know.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: So I do hope that they push on and do some more.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: You know, with me or without me, it doesn't bother me, but hopefully you ladies, you carry on with it, because one, you're brilliant, like everything you guys, the ladies, were talking about was just phenomenal.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: You've flowed wonderfully and connected together really brilliantly as well.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: But there was this kind of emotional level that you don't quite get when there's three or four guys sitting around a table talking.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: It was a different perspective and I don't want to say softer, it's not, softer it's.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: I think it's more emotive.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: You know it's more yeah it's more emotive, more empathic and yeah, um, and I liked that.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: I like that a lot.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: When we think about influencers in financial planning, there aren't many women are there.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: I mean there's certainly more today than there were years ago when I first started.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: I think it's probably more about the people that are out there, those women, those amazing women who are driving forward, being visible.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: I think that's probably it.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: And certainly I think social media LinkedIn, you know helps with that.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: I think it's just having our voices heard so that we are visible to people out there, not just people in finance, but actually the general public.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was at a local secondary school on Monday presenting with a financial coach to a year 13 student, telling them about what I do, what para planners do, talking about the important financial decisions they're going to have to make in the future, and and it was, it was they were really engaging.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: You know it was.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: It was, um, quite an experience really.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: I was thinking, god, I don't remember anybody coming to art school when I was young delivering things like that, you know, talking about debt and credit, and having a real life financial advisor in front of me or somebody who's got a successful career talking about the pros and cons and how to get into it, and being really encouraging, you know.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: So I think visibility is a big thing.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: I do so.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: I think visibility is a big thing.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: I think that we just need to make people like myself and other fantastic professional women out there visible to not just, as I say, people in finance, but the general public and younger people in particular and other women.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: And another important point came out, actually, of that meeting.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: So I'd never met Claire before and she's a qualified financial planner and you, you know, part of this podcast that we did we did was all about trying to, I think, establish why women maybe aren't coming into the industry or why they're dropping out of the industry or not progressing um into financial planning roles or other roles out there.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: And she told me that she had um decided to go into financial coaching because when she'd approached a lot of different um recruitment consultants, they told her that nobody was out out there was willing to employ her on a four-day basis.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: So she just decided to give up the search.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: And I personally had an experience before I had my daughter.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: I remember sitting down with a recruitment guy.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: I, you know and I don't mean to badmouth recruitment, I know, you know with your company, sam, you know there are good recruitment people out there.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: But I specifically remember him asking me if I.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: You know what my family position was at that time and I said, oh well, I don't have any children or anything.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: He said, oh, you'll be so desirable because you have no baggage.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: And I just remember thinking, oh, my gosh yeah.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: I know it's awful, isn't it?
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: But if that's what certain women are coming across in recruitment, for example, it might just be another aspect to consider in terms of keeping brilliant women in the industry or encouraging more in.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it was quite an insight for me.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: So like four day work week wide um, just, I think people want flexibility generally.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Now I think people would like to.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Um, I mean, she said she was in a position now she didn't need to work five days a week and wanted a bit more of a work-life balance, and of the people I know that work, um, maybe four days a week, they probably end up doing five days worth of work anyway and they just condense the hours.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: So I think we've talked about this last time.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: I think if you recruit the right people, they're going to do the work that's needed anyway.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah, but yes, she just wanted a bit more of a work-life balance yeah, I know and as you are it weirdly and from a recruitment perspective, I can understand why they said it would be difficult buying that job opportunities because there aren't enough financial planning firms that use recruiters, that are looking for people or willing to do four-day work weeks, and it's definitely something I think needs to change, because I know a number of them.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Warren Shute does four-day work week.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: He does a million pounds worth of fees a year, so it's completely and utterly doable.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: You need a good team, strong team, around you, but if you're a business that can offer four-day work weeks in financial planning, I wonder how many people are going to be knocking on your door because yeah why do you?
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: I, I think so I don't I mean I work a four-day week, you know a lot of my colleagues say yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, does it help with?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: does working a four-day week?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: a lot of my colleagues do.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Does it help with?
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Does working a four-day week as well help with being a mother?
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: absolutely, yeah, it does.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Um, I mean, I'm one of those people that will occasionally do work on on my Friday off because it needs to be done.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: I might do a bit on the weekend as well, um, but yes, it just gives you that extra bit of flexibility not just to do mum things, actually to do me things, you know, because actually a lot of the time you are doing mum things or dad things, um, you're doing house things that need to be done.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: You you know life, admin, plus work on top, traveling, everything else.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: So just having that extra day off means maybe I'll go to the gym that one extra day when I might not have done, um, might book in my dentist appointment, for example, because I don't have to be anywhere that day and I don't have my daughter with me to try and drag her along.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: Bless her, uh.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: So yeah it, it just makes a difference.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Just have that extra space yeah, is it four day work weeks or is it flexible working?
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: So, for example, if I want to pick my daughter up from school, that should, shouldn't be an issue.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: You know, look, we trust you enough, you, you know what you're doing in your job.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Um, here's flexible working.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: So if you want to go to the gym for two hours during the day because you work a bit later at night, then go for it.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: If you want to go and pick your kids up from school then go for it.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: As long as you work, as long as you work smart and as long as you're doing what you should be doing in your job.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: I'm a bit like that.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't see the problem with now over time.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: I think that's something that should be accessible to somebody that's proven themselves.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: It's my personal opinion running a business myself in the past and we brought on a four-day work week, I was not a fan if I'm honest, and one of the reasons for that as well was the lack of experience individuals that we had within the business working a four-day work week.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: They weren't doing enough, they were kind of doing a crap job a four-day work week right, and it had a massively negative effect on the actual performance of the business.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: So overall it was a failure, and that was in a recruitment business.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Now I, I think, think somebody who's an established financial planner needs to be told what hours they should be working.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: It's my personal opinion, right, yeah.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: And somebody that's coming in who's not established, maybe in the beginnings or the sort of beginnings of their career, let's say the first, I don't know five years, or something like that I personally think they're probably still building.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Why, why?
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Why work four day work week, flexible working, yes, right, right person will probably work more hours anyway, you know, yes.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: Or the right person will work smart around their hours and be good at their job.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: So it's a really a kind of if you're proven, I say it's cool.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: If you're not, no, you're in and you're in the office and you're learning from people.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Because I think that's a massive like being in an office environment, having people around you, is so, so important.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Having somebody like work from home constantly and they're not connected to the business and they're not learning quick enough, it's like a mega city.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: A mega city.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: There's loads of things that go on in a mega city because everyone's so close together and everyone's learning from each other and competition, all that kind of stuff.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: So the city grows right, and it's a bit like that in a business.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: If you haven't got people all together, connecting and learning from each other and in that kind of humanistic state of trying to survive and trying to learn and trying to grow, then sit on your own at home unless you've been there, done it, got the T-shirt.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: It's a lonely old place and probably not a place where you're going to grow.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: So this is why those trainees need to be in the office, in my opinion.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of that.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: I've seen it in action and it works.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: It's free.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely agree with that.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Actually, when I think back to when I did the graduate scheme years ago, we were in the office.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: We were in the office five days a week and it's where I form most of my best friendships, actually.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: And, like you say, learning the tricks of the trade, that you know the different roles that people play in the business, not just financial advisors, but the administrators, the power planners, the people that are in the office regularly and sitting with them, learning their trade, learning you know that, how they do it, why they do it, why they're important um, you know where all this process comes in, all these different working parts.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: I definitely think that people who are new into the business need to be around experienced people to learn that trade.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: You're not going to learn that sitting at home in a room on your own.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: And I don't think it's necessarily good to be in a house on your own all the time.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: I have an office at home, I love going out to see clients.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: I'll quite often go to a coffee store or somewhere else to sit and do paperwork, because I don't like being in a room on my own all day.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: We're sociable creatures.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: We like to talk to people or just have noise in the background.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: So I think you're right.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I think there'll be people out there probably who would love to do a four-day week no-transcript there.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Now for how long?
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: four years cool, yeah.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: So not not that long really, but getting there how's that going?
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: it's going really well.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so there are developments there where, um we are looking, or I'm looking to um buy in, which is really, really exciting, fabulous um.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: But part of that, I feel a big responsibility um to make sure that the culture in the business is right and that staff are looked after well and that the right environment is there for people to thrive.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: That continues and we grow on that.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of talk at the moment, I think, around making sure that people you know I was thinking as financial planners we are very good at planning from a financial perspective about life events.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: But, do we actually look at things that way as employers or as staff in the workplace?
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: For example, I'm 40.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: In the next few years, I'm more than likely going to go into perimenopause, and that comes with a lot of different things, a lot of which can be quite negative.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: So I'm reading about it, hearing podcasts about it you know, steve Bartlett did a really good podcast talking to a specialist on it.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Things like the waking up in the night, not being able to sleep properly, brain fog, headaches, problems with your gums and mouth and things like that.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: You know mood swings, hot flushes and I just say, oh my gosh, this is all to come, and yet we're going to be expected to just crack on with work.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Potentially, we all know what it's like to try and do a really good job when you haven't had a good night's sleep.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: It's really tough, and so I think a lot around how we can maybe cater for that better in the workplace.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, we've talked about flexibility.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: I think that's a good thing, and it's not just the people that are going through it.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: It's actually the partners at home and the other knock-on effects and the colleagues around that who are being impacted by it as well.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: I think it's going to be difficult to get a fair balance between giving people flexibility to maybe take a day at home and work from home if really they've not had a good night's sleep or there's a lot of these symptoms that are happening.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: But there are going to be staff in the office that aren't going through that and actually we need to make sure that they're not getting extra workloads because of it.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: So how would we balance it of it?
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: So how would you?
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: How would we balance it?
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: I think educational pieces around perimenopause, menopause, um, and also things like, you know, going off and having children and that those, these sorts of things, are the life events that can crop up providing an environment I think that's supportive um an understanding environment and maybe putting um things in place where people can have a bit more flexibility and not feel the need to have to divulge everything they're going through um, which can be quite private a lot of the time um having that understanding attitude that some people may need to work slightly differently, because they're going through these things.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, it's.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's a big responsibility it is a big responsibility.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: It's a big one, isn't it?
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Because when you look at one thing, then there's something else, and you look at something else, there could be something else.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: So this is a really interesting subject because I, when I was at recruit uk, I was very much into well-being.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: I went through myself and I, you know, I'm a long-term sufferer of anxiety and depression, um, and I've had to manage that my whole life and that really doesn't.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: You know, you're working like as well so it allowed me to kind of also, okay, look at myself and recognize also that other people around me might well also be experiencing that or suffering with, and it was like well, what can I do to help these people?
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: because when you first discover that you can solve your, you can not solve it because it never goes away, but you can manage it right yeah and talking about it is a good thing, um, seeing a counselor is a good thing, speaking to your employer is a good thing, so you don't feel so overwhelmed in the workplace.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: And being honest, basically being honest with yourself and being honest with others so you're not sitting in a state of fear, right?
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: So I didn't want anybody in my business to be sitting in a state of fear because I didn't know myself.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: I get it.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: I still today, even to today, I have to be honest with myself and say I'm putting too much pressure on myself.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking for this perfection and unless I'm honest, unless I tell my wife, unless I tell counselor, and as I tell a business person, business, it stays with me and it makes me crazy, right?
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: So I I I have to have that space where it's open and I can be honest and I can talk and I can listen, I can share.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Now, yeah, when you're like that and you're passionate about it because you've experienced the pain and suffering that mental health problems can actually cause you, it's very difficult to not try to fix everybody's problems within the business, right?
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: And then you become that go-to person and I think this kind of whole mental health first aider thing is a good thing to have in a business because it says we are trained in helping and talking to people.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: But what I'm experiencing is that from other businesses is that the mental health first aiders are almost not trained enough on it and they're being kind of almost trauma dumped and they want to help because it's within their nature.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: They wouldn't have done it otherwise and they're feeling almost overwhelmed by a multitude of problems that people within the business are experiencing, because one person could have financial problems, one person could have health problems, one person could be drinking too much, right, and they can't see the pressure coming from that.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: There's loads of things and you've got to kind of like we put a lot of pressure on our employees to solve our problems, and so when I looked at it it was like what's the financial well-being policy?
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: How many companies have a finance?
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: You know how many people have a well-being policy within within their business and when you have that well-being policy you have a plethora of different support groups, telephone numbers, services.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: You become a business that is aware and acknowledges the wide range of things that can affect somebody's mood within the business.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: We can guide and we can signpost them along to the right place.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: And the thing that I thought the most was but what the people need when they're going through some kind of problem.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: They need to talk to somebody.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Now what we often do is we don't talk to somebody one because we hear it takes so long to get hold of a counsellor.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: We don't want to talk to the wrong person.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: It costs a load of money and people are, you know, up against it financially at the moment.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: So for me, what was imperative was, if you have a problem, here's a telephone number.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Phone it Instantly.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: You get mental health support Instantly someone calls you.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: If you need counselling, I will pay for eight counselling sessions included in the insurance products that we've got, yeah, and if you want to speak to a specialist about a specific subject matter, we can signpost you there.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: If you want to go to some groups to talk about drug addiction, right, I had people in my business who were addicts, right, and I've been there myself, so I knew the signs and I could see it, but they couldn't see it and I signposted two people that work for me into AA and guess what.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: They don't touch a drop or do drugs in now having the ability and the safety of the space to be able to talk about it and having a policy that allows that, but having an option, having the solution in there as well.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: So it's not falling up on the shoulders of the people within the business or the owners to solve everybody's problems, because we kind of want to, but we but it's not healthy to do that.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: We would then signpost them off into the right direction.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: That's my kind of take on it and I think if you're a business that doesn't have a mental health policy, you're.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: It's a recipe for disaster, you know yeah, I absolutely agree and you know I I went and did a big presentation to a big employer up north and went to the toilet and on the back of the toilet there was a number that you could call if you were in a crisis and and I thought, brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I could be going through something myself.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Now I may not want to talk to anyone about it.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, I am that sort of person.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: I keep things private.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: I'm just not comfortable going into work and telling people about my private life.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: I like to tell stories about things, of funny things that I've done, but anything where it's almost a bit of a shame with me personally, I feel like if I'm not coping, I feel guilty and I feel like why aren't I strong enough to cope?
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I don't want people to know that I'm not as strong as they think I am.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: It's that pride, almost a sense of pride.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: So I think, like you say, having a policy, making everybody aware of it, making everybody know that it's OK Nobody's perfect, people have issues and things going on in life but definitely having specialists and a route, a defined route to get the specialist help that you need, I think that is definitely something that I'm very interested in and I think would help improve the workforce rather than having that stern face.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Well, you just have to get on with it, which, yes, some people will.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: But surely if people are getting the help that they need, productivity will be a lot better and they'll just generally have less worry.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Because I know that if you're a mindful person who likes to do a good job and takes pride in their work, it's going to be devastating to go into work every day thinking I'm trying my best, but I'm just not at my best, because x, y and it's so and it's happening you know, 100.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think just that mentality needs to change a bit the prideful bit is something I suffer from, so I will.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: I'm like super excitable and really driven and I go through these energetic phases where I create these things and I want to do all this and I say I'm going to do everything, yeah.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Then I burn out and I crash and on the way down from crashing.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: I'm tormenting myself because I'm not good enough.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: You know your brain's not working properly.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: You've obviously got something wrong with you.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: You know why aren't you doing the things at the level you should be doing it?
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: And I crash, crash, crash, crash, crash, crash.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: As I'm going down, my brain is subconsciously and by this point I'm just like deny, deny, deny run, go running, lift weights.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm denied and I did I, and it's until I stop and go.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Did it, I did it.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest, right, I did it today, really suffering, I said to my wife.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I said I gotta be honest, carry on, be honest, carrie Ann, she goes.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: What I said?
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: I'm not good enough, don't feel good.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: You know, I said that today.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Do you know what?
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: the gist of it, kerri-ann, is I don't feel good enough, like I'm not doing enough, yeah.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: You know, when you get down and your cognitive function goes and it goes all kind of cloudy in the front of your head, you talk about it with brain fog.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as soon as the pride went away and I got honest, right and I wasn't externally looking for a solution, which to me often is go harder when I'm fucked, right, yeah, I stopped and looked inwards and said I've got to get honest and I am, and it's because I don't feel good enough and she's like it's sad because you are good enough and you are doing everything you should be doing.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: It's like someone could tell me I'm doing a good job.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: And that day, that second, I'm like wow, the feeling that someone gives me when someone tells me I'm doing a good job.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: So feedback for me is like I don't want it every day, right?
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: No, someone giving me feedback saying I'm doing a good job, like I get a message in the inbox from somebody about podcasts.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: It lights me up.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: You know I love it.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not bringing constant affection or anything like that.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: It's not me, but someone just acknowledging that I'm a bit, or like giving me some like feedback and it's just like oh, it's nice giving me some like feedback and it's just like oh, it's nice.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: So actually I kind of just went do you know what I'm giving in?
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: I'm letting go, let the pride down.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: I said it and it came out and you know what it lifted from me?
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: It all lifted and my head cleared and everything cleared just by simply admitting it like it's acceptance, isn't it?
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: I've had that experience, I don't know how many times, and the person I go to is my other half, ben.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I would never dream do it in front of anyone else that I know, really, apart from maybe, mum.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Mum's always the person I would go to.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: But you know, ben's response most of the time is you say this so often, emma, that you're not good enough, that you're not doing a good enough job for your clients and and you know.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: And then look at what you're achieving and I'm sure it's not as bad as you think it is, you know, but, like you say, just having someone to be able to alert it out to and have a little cry, if you need to cry and get it off your shoulders, get it off your chest, it makes a big difference.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: And the other thing that I also think about I did some training when I was on maternity leave a few years ago with Julie Goddard, the success architect.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: She's brilliant and she told me.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: She said imagine now that you're going into um, you know you've gone into a supermarket and you see a new mum there with a baby crying and you're in a big queue and she pushes in in front of you.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Now in your head you're going to make up a story about why she's done that.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, she's so special because she's got a new baby and she's pushed in and you know you'll make up all these stories and get quite angry about it and fed up about it.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: And she said in reality, probably as a new mum, she hasn't even noticed there's a cue.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: She's just thinking, oh my God, I need to get home, I need to pay for this, I need.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: That's the sort of thing probably that goes on in the workplace.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: A lot People are making up stories in their head about why people are behaving the way they are and then in reality, like you just talked about, it could be something completely different.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: And I think having that understanding and education key just to be mindful that actually what you think is going on probably isn't the case, just to be mindful that actually what you think is going on probably isn't the case People will be a little bit more understanding and then create that environment where people are more open and honest about things.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: And.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I think that needs to be done as well.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that self-reflection, so the ability to pause, stop and reflect.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: I often think so when we look at others and we think, are they talking about me, what do they think about me and that goes through my head a lot I'm always kind of feeling like it's not imposter syndrome.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: I mean there's parts of it.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: No, I don't really feel like I have imposter syndrome.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: It's that feeling of am I doing enough?
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, letting people down normally for me, I wonder if they think enough.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: What more can I do?
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: And I think sometimes I often think it's one of the phrases that I've always enjoyed it's not my monkey, not my circus.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: So thinking about what somebody else is up to, not what's going on in their head, mind reading whatever you want to call it, crystal balling Not my monkey, not my circus.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Why am I thinking about it?
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Because they're probably just thinking about themselves anyway.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: They're probably not thinking about me.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: If they are thinking about me, I hope they'll come over and say something.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: If they don't, that's their problem.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the way to be it is.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: It's funny that you brought that up, because I'm due to do a speech on Friday at PFS graduation and.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: I've been trying to think about it in my head.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: I'm one of these people that lies in bed at night and it goes through my head.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Night seems to be great for me.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: That's when things pop up yeah and I've been thinking about the fact that we're all very, very busy.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: It's very easy to go down that route of I'm not enough, I'm not doing enough, can I be better?
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: And actually do we take enough time, just like a minute in the, to reflect about everything we've achieved so far and all those sacrifices we've made and get those feel-good hormones going?
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: We are so busy in this industry and we always beat ourselves up about we're not doing enough.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: But actually if we took a moment now and again to really reflect back and see how far we've come and all the opportunities we've had and how great we're doing, that might also help in terms of that side of things that it's not as bad as we think sometimes.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: You're actually doing okay.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that reflection piece, it's that gratitude piece, it's actually stopping and pausing and looking where we've come from, how far we've come.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: What are we doing?
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Doing?
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: What do we have around us?
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: it's not this idea that we need more to make ourselves feel better.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: And I've got to keep on doing more, more, more.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: We'll work ourselves into the grave.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, my wife says something really profound this morning.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: She was like the only like why is it humans these days, the older you get, the harder you work like we're getting older.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: But the older we get.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: It's a work harder, like in the fact that there's no pension, there's no this.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: There was a period where we actually looked after all of you and now it's like no, you're going to work and see your grave.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Like you have to work and see your grave.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Now I get it.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Some people love working 100.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: I don't think I want to sit around and retire in a traditional sense.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: That's not for me, right.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: But we have a society, we have a company, we have a country like where it used to be just men go out to work and women would look after the kids and all of that.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: No, it's like two of us on full-time, 50-hour work weeks.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: You know, kids are in the nursery, we're not picking it, we're not picking them up till later, and then we've got mortgage bills are going up and it's like canal man, like we're having to work harder and harder and harder the older that you get.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: When it just doesn't feel right, it feels mental.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: No, no working yourself into the ground.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Now, you said something about menopause, perimenopause.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I did the um.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: I did a talk with um st james's place on international men's day, so I did a like.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: I hosted their international men's day and we had um talk club there.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I introduced talk club to SJP and, brilliantly, they put that into their business, which is fantastic.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: They really embraced it.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Anyway, so we had these online talk clubs for men, but we did it for women as well, yeah, and when I was in these meetings, do you know what came up?
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Menopause.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Did it.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: That's really good.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: That's brilliant idea.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I would say 50% of the men in there talked about menopause and the impact it was having on mental health.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't surprise me.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: It's not just going to be a contained thing with the person who's experiencing it, it's going to be a knock-on across anybody who that person's working with or involved with or around.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's an amazing thing to hear that that a lot of men out there are wanting to learn about it and know how to support people that are going through it.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: You know the women that are going through that menopause and perimenopause.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: I'd never heard of it until maybe a year ago.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: I didn't even know that existed and I'm at that age pretty much.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: So it's a good job I did, because that would have been a shock to the system.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: It's a brilliant thing.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: I think it's more we need to talk about it more and it's again just be an educational piece that so it's not a taboo topic that if we have got women in the in the workplace who are going through it, there's an understanding there about what's happening, why it's happening, why they might be behaving a certain way.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: It's not personal, it can't be helped, and actually you might just be able to give a little bit of slack or leeway or help in other ways to take the pressure off.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: That's really encouraging to hear.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: It was really encouraging for me because at the time my wife's 43.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: So I didn't really understand peri, I didn't understand menopause, I didn't understand perimenopause, right, and if you think about it, it's logical.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: You're not just going to go one day.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: I've hit the menopause.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: It's going to be a gradual thing, right, it's going to take a little bit of time.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: And when I opened up the concept of, like, the gray area it's not a black, it's a bit gray, it tastes like it made me realize like, oh god, like you're starting to see it and and it's okay, you know it's not, it's it's not though it's not, it's not great.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Being a woman, you can't get through a lot of shit, but yeah, but it's a hell of a lot easier when we can openly discuss it and we can openly address it.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: And we're aware of it, because historically my dad would just go oh, I was going for a change.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: You know about my mum.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it Great.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: What's she changing into?
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: What's she changing into?
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: But when you understand it as a man and you can kind of empathize and put yourself into the situation and actually what the um triggers might be, uh around it when someone's going through it, what the emotional state that person will be in, what they can, what they can't do, it's allowed me to understand my wife a lot better than I would be if I was, because if I'm going through my shit, for example, and she's going through hers, I have to be able to be there for her while she's going through it.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Does that makes sense?
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: I can't, yeah, it does you've got.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I've got to be aware that what she's going through, it and and and how it affects her, because it's actually really quite nasty.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Because if you again, if you've got, perhaps, if you're susceptible to anxiety, depression, low mood, low self-esteem, it it is like somebody attacking you, right?
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: If it's anything like depression, which is like something attacking you internally that you can't quite, it's crafty, it'll get you and it'll look.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: It will talk about your weight, talk about your, your looks and all those things.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: You know the things I mean.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: I think as they get older and start starts to like my wife's in Dubai now, she's kind of like looking at all these girls walking around with bikinis on and all of that and it's actually like triggering for her.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: When you get to a certain age.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: It's the same with guys.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: You look around as a guy, you look around and there's good looking young lads with insane bodies and you're thinking hmm, you know that's not me.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Hmm, you know that's not me, but it's tricky and we have these conversations about it because there are certain things you know that might well trigger her and I need to be aware of what those situations are, just so I don't take it personally.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: You know I don't react in a certain way, but we can have an open and honest, frank conversation.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: The things I should be saying or doing, you know, that might well trigger how she is when she's in a state like that.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: yeah, absolutely.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: That is what it's all about at the end of the day, isn't it?
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: And actually, it's not just about about menopause, perimenopause.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: It could be about, you know, couples that are having IVF treatment.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: It could be women, you know, women who are on their menstrual cycle, and especially if you've got an office full of women um, I think we talked about this previously a lot of the time women sink their cycles yeah um, so you could have a lot of women who are going through their cycle at the same time.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: You know, I know lots of women who really go through so much pain at that time of month.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Um, my best friend of mine, even at school she couldn't even get out of bed some days.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: She was in that much pain so I think just being aware of all these, as I say, life events or things that go on in life, and the impacts that they can have, just knowing how to support people through those, is just going to make, I think, life a lot easier for everybody.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Um I think it'll make a big difference I think it speeds up the.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: So people are thinking like if you don't talk about it and you ignore it, then the person in the workplace where they spend 8 to 9, 10 hours, maybe sometimes a bit of their life, are never going to feel comfortable with what they're experiencing.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: If you create a well-being proposition where maybe there's some videos in there, there's some articles, there's some signposts into free information, there is support to go and talk to somebody.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: All you're doing is speeding up recovery Because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not real.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: And who am I, as an employer, to decide whether or not what you're experiencing is what you're experiencing?
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: We all experience our own reality, right, and it's our own levels of pain and our own levels of suffering, and how we interpret something is completely different to how someone else would in the situation.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: Why are you bothered by that?
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Because I went through some shit when I was younger and it triggers me, right, and that's why I feel the way that I do.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: You know, and some people get absolutely terrified by a spider and you think what are you on about?
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: It's just a spider, but we all experience things in different ways.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: It's about kind of having the ability for somebody to go into a document or a online portal where they can pick and choose the thing they need for the support, and that will speed up the recovery.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: you will have a healthier workforce and um more respect, I think as well, because at least you're not saying I don't, I think you're talking shit, and the reason yeah it's reason like I think it's natural for a business owner to think that people are just taking the piss and it's like that's the first thing you think because you've got so much on the line.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: I've been a business owner and, trust me, I've thought that way.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: That's how it is.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Some people were taking the piss, do you know?
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: what.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: I mean there, always, always, and it's frustrating because it takes away from the people who genuinely need help or genuinely going through something as a business owner, do you?
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: know how this helped me as well and why this is important, because it protected me.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: So I was able to put that in front of somebody and say have you phoned that number yet?
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, no, right.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: So this is the second time and we're having the same conversation and you're bringing up the same thing, and we're talking also about your performance, how it links to your performance.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Have you not phoned somebody yet?
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Have you phoned that line?
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Have you spoke?
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Have you reached out to them?
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: What are you doing about it?
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: So, all of a sudden, there isn't this uncomfortableness of being like well, i'm't working for you because clearly you don't want to help yourself on that side, which I understand, but in this business here you're probably not fitting now.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: For you and your well-being, therefore, it is time for you to leave.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: So it's a different conversation.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: You can evidence as an employer that you've put your best foot forward and you're doing something for that person, that you're doing for everybody else and you're doing something for that person that you're doing for everybody else.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that person doesn't take it.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: Then, unfortunately, that person's not at that right point in time where perhaps they're in the right environment and I can go.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: It's now time to end this relationship.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: And that's how I always found that I didn't feel so guilty.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: You know, because I used to feel really, really guilty, because if I was going through it and they were going through it, how do I know they're not?
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: All I wanted to do was help.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: And sometimes you'll be gaslit.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: When you're this way inclined, you get gaslit by your own staff, and I've had that.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: I've been gaslit loads by my own staff.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: They knew that I was that type of person and they could play on monday or friday, when they'd be done the session yeah, it's a super important point, isn't it?
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: as an employer, you need to have evidence that you have tried to help, that you haven't immediately just assumed that these people are talking a load of rubbish, that they're trying to have you on, and actually be able to evidence that you know the steps that you've taken and that you've given them time.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: That is really important.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: It works both ways absolutely well, you can document it, you know and also, you don't, as an employer, have to get into the nitty gritty of personal relationships.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: You don't have to get.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: I don't need to know your past.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: All right, you go and tell a counselor if you want to tell me, I'll listen and it'll be confidential.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: However, that's like we shouldn't be having those conversations.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: In my eyes, they they are conversations with a professional, much as I listen to podcasts and read books and have gone through my own shit right yeah I'm not a mental health expert and you need to go and speak to a mental health expert because talking to me is your business as a boss is gonna it's gonna affect this relationship yeah, absolutely.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: You know that people train for years to help mental health in particular is not a straightforward thing.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: You know people are complicated creatures, so you shouldn't have to or shouldn't sit there thinking that you can help in the right way.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: It's about providing the resources so people can go and source help themselves, the right help at the right time and the good thing is, if you've got the signposting capabilities within the business, you give it to every employee and you empower each and every employee to help each other with the signposting, then you create a culture of well-being, because people are healing people, people are guiding people, people aren't trying to take on somebody's shit.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: You know it's like here we go, we've got a policy, let's get you on it because it's helped me or it's helped such and such or whatever.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: So yeah good, we're on the same page.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: We definitely need more female leaders within the financial planning profession, that's for sure.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: So you're 75.3.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: There's how many financial planning leaders there, how many leaders within the business, are females?
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: so there will be um.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: So there's going to be shortly six shareholders, and three of which will be female.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Um shareholder directors there we go and the majority of financial advisors in that business are actually female, so we probably buck the trend, yeah, yeah we buck the trend probably um, because steve, who recruits, has got good taste.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: You know I'm joking, it's all down to Steve.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: I love how I said that We've been recruited.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: So when I think about it in all honesty, quite a lot of us all know each other, we train together.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: So I wonder whether that's how we've all gotten that you know one has been recruited and then said, oh, so-and-so, maybe you should employ her and think about her, and so it's all sort of led on we all trained together in a graduate scheme and we've all sort of gone away and then come back together again.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: So maybe that's why we do get the trend a little bit.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I don't know, I, when I think about the graduate scheme I was in, there was there was an equal part of men and women in terms of the graduate.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I don't know, I haven't got an answer for it.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: Just somewhere that is attracting women, because we're all happy working there, I guess.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Well, exactly, it's not about yeah, it's about creating a happy environment.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: I think the culture of the business is right and people feel comfortable.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: I think it's great.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: I also think as well you can't be too soft.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: You don't want to create this kind of cotton wool culture.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: You need to also have the boundaries in place and the clear, clear objectives and clearly what it is you want people to do.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: But the reward is you have this culture and this way of working.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: So if it's flexible, if your business is focused on flexible working for example, because those within the business are successful, because they work flexibly really you need people coming into that business that are going to add value flexibly right.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: You don't want someone coming in fancy, flexible working but takes the piss.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Then it ruins the culture of flexible working and I think it works quite well in smaller firms as it gets bigger up the food chain, if you like.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: I think you then have to look at flexible working based on somebody's level of either experience or value add to the business.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: But you can, but at the same time, you can hire off the back of it.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: I know companies that do hire off the back of it.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: I know companies that do hire, you know power plants, for instance.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Like why, why do they have to be strictly rigid to nine, to fives, etc.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Why can't they be flexible?
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Like there's a massive problem with power plants hiring them.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: And I was like saying to companies why don't you just hire remote, why don't you offer working?
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Because I guarantee you the majority, majority of power, as is like I think it's 70% of win.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: So it's like, offer them flexible working and they will come to your business.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: And then the ones that did were like in all data, because it was like it's that simple.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: You know you offer somebody, the right person, flexible working.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: They are going to treat you with respect.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: You know they say, bro, we, bro, you know, repay you with hard work and dedication and trust.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: All right, amazing.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Well, listen, emma has been.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: It's been lovely catching up with you.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: I think we've covered a bit here today.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: We've talked about mental health, we've talked about well-being place, things that we can do collectively as a profession to improve it, and the fact that we shouldn't shut away from it, that we should be honest with ourselves, that we can't take on everybody else's responsibilities and we do need some kind of way to signpost people and I think if anybody's listening to this podcast today, I hopefully take it away.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: What is your well-being policy in your place?
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: If there is, champion it and if you're a business owner, put it in because it works.