Latest / Identity at the Center / #190 - Identity Governance with Paul Mezzara

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#190 - Identity Governance with Paul Mezzara · Identity at the Center

0:09
You're listening to the identity at the center podcast.
0:12
This is a show that talks about identity and access management
0:15
and making sure you know who has access to what let's get
0:18
started. Welcome to the identity of the
0:25
sender podcast, I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
0:27
Hey Jim hey Jeff, how are you? Not so bad yourself?
0:31
I'm doing good. You know.
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We're going to release this podcast, couple days after
0:35
Thanksgiving the Monday after Thanksgiving and I'm just kind
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of wondering what are you thankful for air conditioning
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and fast internet? And here I was thinking you were
0:46
going to say family and friends will be crazy man.
0:49
No, I was going to go with a tech answer to So my answer is
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going to be password. Alice but guess what?
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I spent the entire day doing are not the entire day but it was a
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good hour and a half. Talking about how we're going to
1:03
do is self-service password, resets and password
1:06
synchronization and what all the password policies have to be in
1:10
order for the synchronization not to break.
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And I asked what I started to realize was that all those years
1:17
in, I am that kind of made make me the dinosaur that I am.
1:22
Sure come in handy, still. Yeah.
1:24
I mean password. Oh this is cool, right?
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I think it's coming. We've been hearing for a while,
1:29
but guess what? There's still people passwords
1:31
out there so gotta cover them to and support it so and the only
1:34
happy path is the part that most exploits are probably taking
1:37
advantage of is, you know, I forgot my password and kind of
1:40
going through that or if they've reuse their password and
1:43
unfortunately, maybe you're getting, you know, a rainbow
1:46
you're part of a rainbow table out there which has pretty much
1:49
every breach password, no demand covered.
1:52
So it's important. Oughtn't kind of cover is like
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okay we know we want to plan and design for the future but we
1:57
can't forget the present. Yeah.
2:00
You know, the other thing that I find that, you know, having you
2:04
know, the good old gray hair experience is that a lot of the
2:09
basic fundamentals of it and your, your software development
2:16
life cycle, those things come in handy and they play out in.
2:20
I am projects over and over again and the example I'm going
2:23
to give Right now is something that's come up in one of my
2:27
projects where the team working with the Zach asked for access
2:32
to the dev environment during their or I'm sorry it's the QA
2:37
environment but they want to make changes as they're going
2:40
through their QA process and that's very much you know not
2:45
how normal software development projects go where the testers
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are changing the system right? Because then The developers
2:55
don't know what was changed and they're asked to then solve
2:59
problems that they're not sure how those came to be.
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So the analogy I was using today was imagine that you are asked
3:09
to fix a car, you're working on that car and then you step away
3:13
and then the owner of the car comes over and starts working on
3:16
it. Then you come back and you think
3:18
it's in a certain place and the car should start now and you go
3:23
to start it. Is not working and you go in and
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you discover all these changes were made and you have to kind
3:29
of troubleshoot backwards. So I think that's ultimately why
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you prevent that from happening, right?
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The developers are responsible for creating a working
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environment and having other people work on that environment.
3:44
You know, behind the scenes is just not acceptable.
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So really, that's just basic software development.
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That's not specific to I am but you have to be able to bring
3:54
that at to the table when you're going into projects because you
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never know when these kind of scenarios might pop up.
4:01
I think it's basic anything. You know you're telling the
4:03
story and for the this is an audio podcast but I was squid
4:06
and real hard at you like what that the brow is furrowed like,
4:11
this doesn't make any sense. I mean this shouldn't be rocket
4:16
science and it shouldn't be it should be common knowledge but
4:18
common knowledge isn't so common.
4:20
Sometimes you know we did this when I was in the help desk is
4:23
like okay. Like a long ticket.
4:25
A troubleshooting you were you you needed to document what you
4:28
tried. So that as you were going along,
4:31
if the ticket need to be migrated to another queue or
4:34
whatever it might be, they knew what was already tried and they
4:37
weren't wasting their time. I mean this seems kind of like a
4:40
no duh. But no da Jim well.
4:44
I mean it's one of those things you came with hard-earned
4:47
experience, right? Absolute learn it from a book.
4:50
Absolutely, let's see. So what else we got?
4:54
Got going on before we get to our main topic which is identity
4:56
governance. I think we're after
4:58
Thanksgiving, will probably be taking a, our normal sort of
5:01
holiday break here towards the end of December.
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Give my tired weary fingers, and even worse voice, a break for a
5:09
couple weeks as we sort of had into Christmas.
5:11
But we've got a few more, a few more shows lined up after this
5:14
one, but people shouldn't be surprised.
5:17
You know, as we normally do every storm or between like
5:20
mid-December to like mid-January, take a few weeks
5:23
break to kind of restore. Recharge that's using my spot
5:26
where I try to get some creative juices flowing and either come
5:29
up with a new intro or I think I think I'm okay with the logo
5:33
right now. Probably you know, keep that for
5:34
a little bit but it's an opportunity for us to kind of
5:36
reinvent and you know keep things fresh so keep an eye out
5:40
for that. In case something changes.
5:42
Yeah, sharpen the saw a little bit but yeah I think even
5:45
Slackers like else deserve a couple of weeks off and gives us
5:49
an opportunity to kind of come back full steam.
5:53
I mean, You think about it, this is going to be episode.
5:56
What? 190 up at three and a half
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years, not even three and a half years, so we're definitely
6:02
exceeding the pace of one episode per week.
6:06
Yeah, which is a lot considering this is not our day job.
6:09
Exactly. All right well, why don't we
6:11
talk a little bit about identity governance.
6:13
Some very happy to have our guest on here.
6:16
His name is Paul Mazzara. He's the vice president of
6:19
strategy with zaevion. Welcome to the show Paul.
6:22
All right. Hey, thanks for having me, glad
6:24
to be here. Yeah, thanks so much for joining
6:26
us. And, you know, one of the things
6:28
I like to do when we have someone out for the first time
6:29
is kind of find about their identity background in their
6:32
origin story. I guess, how did you did you get
6:35
into the I am space? Is it something that shows you
6:38
or did you choose it? Yeah, kind of combination.
6:42
I think, eventually it chose me and then I decided to kind of
6:47
stay with it so to speak. Yeah, for me, it started back in
6:50
the right. When the kind of internet start
6:53
taking off, in terms of not just being a website that had little
6:58
pretty things to look at or read.
7:01
But so this is around the later 90s and up to then I'd been a
7:06
software developer so I actually started out as they call it.
7:09
T PF programmers, the Game programmer, the tpf is like a
7:13
airline Airline programming and so but I was able to kind of
7:17
move into like a more windows programming and learn Visual
7:20
Basic and and then I picked up TCP IP sockets.
7:25
And so at that point, there was opportunity to, to go with a
7:29
start on this B2B Extranet that Visa was working on.
7:33
And at that point, they were looking at putting it on
7:38
CompuServe, so that's kind of where we're was.
7:41
Back then. And so they said, okay, let's
7:44
put this thing on the internet and see, you know, what?
7:46
We could do with it, see what the, what are member banks, you
7:49
know, because basically, it was a way for member banks can share
7:51
information with visa and kind of secure fashion, nothing like
7:55
top secret or transactions, but just information.
7:58
And so it started out with kind of a proprietary kind of a
8:03
tunnel firewall bit, the client had to load on their desktop and
8:07
then to do that secure Communications before SLE So
8:11
then I actually helped Implement Implement SSL and then a single
8:17
sign-on. So that's kind of how I got into
8:19
the whole I am. And then from there, we had kind
8:22
of a custom enrollment entitlement system.
8:25
And so that was a lot of fun, right?
8:27
During the kind of internet boom in the early 2000s.
8:32
And then from there, I kind of evolved more to like an
8:34
architecture role. Did some work on some Federation
8:39
projects and then eventually Went to over to McKesson in the
8:42
healthcare space. That was a lot of fun started.
8:45
They're very small Beginnings to and we kind of built out a
8:49
shared Service as part of the it group for see I am we built a
8:54
whole big platform to kind of hosts.
8:56
A lot of different customer and you know patient portals and
9:02
Pharmacy portals and a lot of cool stuff using the
9:05
Technologies you guys are all familiar with and then a couple
9:08
years ago went to Gartner so I have opportunity To cover, IGA,
9:12
Pam and see. I am there and talk to a lot of
9:15
clients by a lot of people that you know like people that listen
9:18
to your podcast around what are the struggles that people are
9:22
facing and a lot of the struggles and challenges I had
9:24
as a practitioner very similar to what I was hearing out in the
9:28
field. So it was kind of really nice to
9:30
get that validation confirmation out there that not I wasn't the
9:34
only one that kind of going through this, you know, proud of
9:37
these challenges. So, so it's been a nice ride and
9:40
now I kind of dove into the, to the vendor space now, for about
9:45
a year and a half. I've been it would save you kind
9:48
of, it's part of their strategy team self, kind of going full
9:51
circle. So we'll see what's next.
9:53
But yeah, I don't plan on stopping anytime soon.
9:56
Yeah, so you've been like, neck-deep and IGA.
9:58
Now for a few years, I guess I got to ask about the Gartner
10:00
suck because I'm always curious. I guess take me through like a
10:04
typical day of what it's like to be.
10:06
You know, an analyst in this space where you know like it or
10:09
not, the Gartner magic quadrant is One of the tastemakers that's
10:12
out there. I'd love to hear more kind of,
10:16
you know what's that like? Yeah, actually you lot of people
10:19
don't know. I was on a team that was like
10:22
the former Burton group if you guys heard of the Burton group
10:25
Gartner bought the burden group and they kind of created a
10:28
technical, professional part of gardener.
10:30
So I was on the I am team for that.
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That particular group in our focus is more around, the The
10:37
Architects and implementers, and we did the solution scorecard
10:40
and of It's met with those. I did a bunch of those for IGA
10:45
and we had another team that did the magic quadrants and and some
10:49
of those those reports it was great.
10:52
Kind of we work together but we didn't really author co-author
10:56
any, any any research with them? But yeah, I mean the day in the
11:00
life I would say it's it's a lot harder than it kind of looks in
11:05
the sense of all the different things you have to juggle, you
11:08
know, first of all, prepare for conferences.
11:11
Presentations doing yes, x amount of documents that you
11:15
have. You gotta crank out plus
11:17
co-authoring and then on top of that, you're talking to
11:21
hundreds. If not thousands of clients
11:23
every year that call and ask well, okay, you wrote about
11:26
this. So how does that apply to me or,
11:27
you know, what other questions do they have about General?
11:31
IGA Pam. See I am then you guys know
11:34
those three topics there. You could spend a whole life
11:36
just with one of those and so for me it was like, okay just
11:41
Constantly reading up on, you know, vendors offerings and
11:45
solutions, and plus we have to be thinking on the Forefront to.
11:49
So it was it was a lot. It was definitely a change from
11:53
being a practitioner to analysts that I really did enjoy it.
11:56
I think it's a, it's a really good job.
11:59
I would recommend anybody. Who's, you know, who's
12:02
interested in, kind of take making a change to kind of
12:04
consider that, of course, you have to be a good speaker, a
12:07
good writer, and, you know, good technical but, you know, Subject
12:11
matter, expert and believe me, there's a lot of talented
12:15
analysts out there, and it's a very sort of competitive.
12:19
In terms of you have the best and the brightest I think, and
12:22
at Gartner and so, if you think you're going to do go in and
12:26
kind of, wow, everybody, your kind of I felt sort of humbled,
12:31
you know, for I thought well, I'm 20 years and I am and here I
12:36
come Waltzing in and tell you just you're the Newbie guy,
12:39
okay, we'll see. Yeah, so it was very, very
12:44
fulfilling but also very challenging.
12:47
I think it's refreshing to hear that everyone gets imposter
12:49
syndrome. Sometimes kind of walking into
12:52
situations like I think I know what I'm talking about and then
12:54
you find out was like, oh man, I don't know anywhere near as much
12:56
as I thought I did. Yeah, I so the solution
13:00
scorecards in my mind is a lot more detail typically than yes.
13:04
The, the magic quadrant. I know, at least let's talk
13:07
specifically on the magic quadrant itself Gartner.
13:11
Discontinued doing that. I think three years ago I think
13:13
2019 was the last one. I think the reason that I heard
13:17
was that it was because it was so mature that they just wasn't
13:19
really much value and now they've I think pivot into like
13:23
a buyer's guide or something like that for that you know, I
13:26
guess is that something you agree with is the IGA Market
13:30
mature and there really isn't a kind of a need to continue that
13:33
research. Or is there something else going
13:35
on? Yeah, you're right.
13:37
I think they kind of pivoted to a market guy and I think part of
13:40
the issue was It seemed as, though, over the last few years
13:44
of that report, that there's a lot of same players, and not a
13:48
whole lot of interesting developments or changes.
13:50
And so, and, you know, because of the criteria for the magic
13:54
quadrant the, you kind of have to have X number of dollars in
13:59
sales, and, you know, there's a lot of kind of criteria to even
14:02
to get on there. And so, the gardener was
14:05
thinking it again, I wasn't part of that decision.
14:07
It was the kind of the other team, but from my perspective,
14:11
What I saw was that, you know, they really wanted to try to
14:13
include other people and, you know, include other vendors and
14:16
give a kind of wider array of these are the kind of vendors.
14:20
Like in the market guide, they'll talk about the IGA
14:22
lights and you know the the up-and-comers, the established
14:26
and Bo. And so I thought it was good in
14:29
that sense. But unfortunately to you know, a
14:32
lot of companies rely on that mq upper right.
14:35
Right. So you know most of the time
14:37
there's there they just kind of circle that upper right and say
14:40
okay this is my Ben. I'm not going to look at
14:43
anything else and so with the disappearing is like, people
14:46
were liking it. What do we do now?
14:47
You know, so but I think I think overall it's a good thing
14:50
because I don't recommend just circling that upper quadrant.
14:54
I mean, you gotta look at your unique use cases, you know, some
14:57
of these Niche vendors, you know, maybe they're great but
15:00
they only are in Latin America or Europe.
15:03
So, but if you're over there, hey, that's to me.
15:05
That's almost like an upper right center right there.
15:08
So, so I think I think It was a good move in that, you know,
15:14
they've kind of broadened, their research to include more vendors
15:18
and then at the same time, as you said, we're doing the
15:20
scorecards. So the scorecards really giving
15:23
you the meat and potatoes about each vendor and comparing them.
15:27
And so that was almost okay well you got this score cards now.
15:30
So kind of most gave you you know a little bit different
15:35
information but I think more focused you know.
15:38
So one is a market and the other was more for the Architect
15:42
implementers to really look at the capabilities, you know, in
15:45
great detail because frankly, the magic quadrant critical
15:48
capabilities. You know, they totally kind of
15:50
broke down the different capabilities but they were not
15:53
as deep. I mean, the scorecard, we did,
15:57
was like, 300 or some criteria for each vendor.
16:02
So it was pretty massive, and It was good for me because it
16:07
really got gave me a chance to look at all the different
16:10
vendors capabilities and really understand where the kind of
16:13
differences were. And I bet that's probably been
16:16
helpful now. You're with Sapient vice
16:18
president of strategy. I guess I have, you know I got
16:21
two more questions. The first question I'll let you
16:22
answer it is. What is the vice president's
16:24
strategy? What does that mean?
16:26
Yeah, that's a good question. So I think one of the thing
16:30
areas that I'm focusing on is kind of trying to look a little
16:34
further out And you know what, attracted me to save you.
16:37
It really was the kind of innovation culture that they
16:40
have there in the, you know, if you just look over time of what
16:44
savings done, we've been pretty much on the Forefront of IgA and
16:48
now we broke broke into the pan magic quadrant as a Visionary.
16:52
So we're kind of looking at that converged solution which we will
16:56
get into in a bit later. But so part of it is just making
17:00
sure that we're always looking a little bit beyond our Releases
17:06
and seeing what are some of the big rocks out there that we need
17:09
to either avoid or kind of, you know, incorporate into our
17:13
overall strategy. And so might not be because in
17:16
my title is product and Market strategy, so there's the market
17:20
aspect is like so what should we do from Geo Market standpoint?
17:26
You know, it's SMB or kind of big company.
17:29
So I'm starting to look at all those and see what we're we're
17:32
does. Make sense for Save yet to Enter
17:35
into certain markets geographies Etc.
17:38
And you know recently we came out with the healthcare identity
17:43
Cloud which is basically Our Savior and Enterprise identity
17:46
Cloud which name of our product and it's basically it's not a
17:50
different offering but it's it's geared towards the healthcare
17:53
industry that is kind of an overlay of configurations best
17:57
practices accelerators. Kind of things that help you as
17:59
a healthcare organization to kind of get your feet off the
18:03
ground much more quickly. And kind of cater to your
18:06
specific needs like you know, EHR integration for example.
18:10
So so those are kind of some of the things that I'm kind of
18:13
trying to spearhead their grad Sabian.
18:16
And I know the solution comparison just came out from
18:18
Gartner to about Stevia and you guys did pretty well in it.
18:21
I guess. I don't want to turn this again
18:22
into a commercial for Sadie n't. But what were there any kind of
18:26
take aways or findings that kind of stuck out for you as you're
18:29
kind of looking over what, you know, Gartner is telling telling
18:32
you about your product. Now, Yeah, I think I mean it's
18:37
sales very similar to the scorecards that that we just
18:40
there is kind of two criteria when it's just the basic, what
18:44
they call that an exact words, the core criteria and then the
18:47
competitive. So core is basically everything
18:50
that you as a client expect that you're going to need from an IGA
18:54
solution. And if it's not, if it's
18:56
missing, then you really need to justify why you would actually
19:00
even go forward that kind of solution.
19:01
So we did extremely high there and the other one was Additive
19:05
which is more differentiators. Other use cases that might be a
19:09
little more specialized in nature.
19:11
Again we just we were in the 90s for both of those I think not
19:17
really a whole lot of surprises there.
19:19
In terms of it's very consistent with what the scorecard and it
19:22
came out with a couple years ago.
19:24
So I think it's more confirmation that you know, that
19:28
we're still in a good leadership position in the space and then
19:32
hopefully that with this, you know, A lot of more companies
19:37
will recognize say Viet and you know, include us in kind of the
19:42
as on the short list. So that's I think the goal there
19:46
is to really be able to get on those short lists and be able
19:50
to, you know, also being kind of as a solution making it easy as
19:57
you guys know implementing Solutions is like IG are very
20:00
difficult. So I think that's what we're
20:04
kind of leading the Lee of the leading the way there, you know,
20:08
on those capabilities. But yeah, in terms of particular
20:10
things surprises, not a whole lot more confirmation.
20:14
So Paul you and I caught up the other day and I was just one
20:18
part of your background that I found so fascinating, which was
20:21
your whole dive into the sea. I am space.
20:25
So customer identity. Access management.
20:28
When you're at McKesson and you made the statement.
20:31
Yeah, we went out and got forgerock.
20:35
Around 2011, and I'm thinking, okay, I got became aware of
20:42
forgerock. Run 2013. 2014 McKesson was kind
20:46
of like a, like a Marquise logo for them at a time back to.
20:50
Yeah. What I realized was that took
20:52
guts man to go out there and select a vendor, who was pretty
20:59
much knew, right? I mean the product was had just
21:03
been spun off, I guess by son. Has open source so that took
21:06
some guts and but it must have been fun to to like take this
21:11
product and like do all the things that was envisioned to do
21:16
and be the kind of a Trailblazer in that respect, but I thought
21:20
it was also cool about the conversation was like how many
21:23
times you? And I must have passed each
21:25
other in the hallway at the Hard Rock conferences and things like
21:29
that and I didn't even know each other so but hey eventually we
21:34
got to go. To know each other and I'm glad
21:38
you're here. And I wanted to actually to and
21:43
I'll turn this over to you does that get?
21:44
But I wanted to pick on something that you said to
21:48
Jeffrey is that you're the VP of product and marketing strategy
21:53
and I think that that is pretty cool because one of the big
21:57
trends that I see happening in the market is around this
22:03
converged. I am Oh, it's taking these these
22:06
product Towers whether it was, you know, I think of and I am
22:11
like the three major Towers being access management.
22:17
IGA or identity management, whichever you want to call it
22:21
and privileged privileged access management and I see a shift
22:27
away from kind of best-of-breed like this what we do we do it
22:30
well and then we partner with the partner with best of breed
22:35
in the other areas toward each of the vendors trying to build
22:39
capabilities around multiple of these you know Towers if you
22:45
will. And so I kind of see where say
22:48
vehement started out was around IGA, but also now kind of like
22:56
venturing into the into the Pam space, not into the single
23:01
sign-on space. So I'm assuming that was an
23:04
intentional part of your strategy.
23:06
I guess I'll start there as like, is that right?
23:09
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there.
23:11
Definitely. You know, we've actually started
23:15
way back when we're save. You kind of did.
23:19
Well, we called our application governance, it's are fine.
23:23
Grained entitlements kind of management part of the product
23:26
which we started out Genesis was a doing sap more of a Saudi and
23:31
kind of compliance angle and then saving it grew more to a
23:35
complete IGA sweet. This was in the early days and
23:39
you're right. So now we're kind of it's been
23:41
several years as I mentioned The, we did debut in the Pam
23:45
magic quadrant as a Visionary. So again, I think the, you know,
23:49
our Innovation and kind of mindset, we thought, and again,
23:54
even myself, when I thought about this at Gartner, we did
23:58
some reporting on this. I mean, the Pam, and IGA
24:01
traditionally been very separate, but it does make a lot
24:05
of sense to have those to be together in that you most
24:09
definitely want your privileged users to have a whole It's
24:13
controls around them. In fact, those are probably the
24:16
most important ones that you want to make sure you have the
24:19
whole lifecycle management of those identities in your IGA
24:23
system. So it made a lot of sense from
24:25
those two to be together. And then the other thing is,
24:29
yes, we're kind of going to more of a just-in-time ephemeral type
24:33
nature of identities and access rights.
24:37
It makes sense that your IG a solution and your Pam solution
24:41
are together because they also Are both interfacing with those
24:45
endpoint applications. And at times, you know, we can
24:48
generate on-the-fly elevate your privilege and that remove it as
24:53
part of your privileged access. But then, if you're
24:56
non-privileged, we still have that same connectivity to be
24:59
able to manage those entitlements.
25:02
So we could do privilege and non-privileged with the same
25:04
kind of connectivity that we already have.
25:07
So based on the risk, if we might decide to have you
25:11
elevate, your, if you're An elevated risk.
25:14
We might decide to direct you to having session recording and a
25:20
bunch of other controls on top. So it's, I think it's going to
25:22
continue to be. It's going to evolve into
25:24
something much more Dynamic and kind of what we're doing in the
25:28
future. What we're starting to look at
25:31
is that whole application access layer where you know, we can
25:37
dynamically You elevate, you and put those privileged access
25:42
controls on the Fly. It's not going to be so
25:44
separate, you know. Yeah, yeah.
25:46
I'm kind of wondering from Market philosophy, if you will.
25:52
It's the was if you rewind the clock for five years ago at the
25:59
predominant message was around better together, right?
26:03
And it seems to me that this converge I am approach is he's
26:09
probably going to push away from that model, right?
26:14
Because now companies are competing on on different
26:19
fronts, right? It's going to be hard to to find
26:23
a Best of breed mix that is the perfect set of capabilities to
26:29
to fit my need. I guess and I don't know which
26:34
one's better from a customer standpoint but let me put that
26:38
question to you. What is Better for customers.
26:41
Is it? You know, for this can converge,
26:44
I am Trend to continue and to deepen, or is it better?
26:49
Or did they have a better before with the Better Together
26:53
approach? Yeah, it's great question.
26:56
Yeah, I think that, you know, because you had asked to about,
26:59
you know, will what about access management and into the mix?
27:03
And I think we've decided that we're partnering for that and
27:07
that, you know, a lot of organizations, in many cases,
27:11
pick their access management solution, as part of, you know,
27:14
could be their collaboration Suite or other things.
27:18
And, in many cases, why should we kind of try to compete with a
27:23
lot of the access management? Current Solutions out there and
27:25
they're well established fairly. I don't know.
27:28
Commoditize has maybe a ton of the proper word of course, I
27:32
don't want to put down any access management vendors but
27:36
you know they do a great job and what they do but you know in the
27:38
sense you know the single sign-on Federation space is
27:41
fairly mature but then it also becomes.
27:46
It's almost like a different kind of a discipline, IGA and
27:49
Pam are almost a different discipline that requires.
27:52
I think a real Send how you you kind of implement IGA.
27:59
So I think we've had a lot of success in that and so I would
28:02
recommend for customers to you know definitely if they want to
28:06
try to reduce the number of tools that they have in the
28:10
course at the cisos. You know I hear that there's 80
28:13
plus tools that they have to worry about.
28:15
So definitely there's there's that push in the probably at the
28:18
top level of the organization. They're going to want to have
28:21
less tools and maybe one or two. Throws to choke and you know
28:25
have have overall, you know, better.
28:30
You know said spend you know, it's reduce spending total cost
28:36
of ownership. That's the word I was looking
28:38
for but no. Yeah I think that's right.
28:42
I think that's right. You know I think what you're
28:44
saying there is that an organization or that's a buyer.
28:49
We've got to figure out what we need.
28:50
Right? And yeah, not over by just
28:53
because hey, something Got all these bells and whistles, but I
28:56
will say, is an interesting time.
28:59
That is converged identity. Converged, I am movement is
29:04
taking place because at the same time, each one of those Towers,
29:09
all three of them are becoming much more complex than they've
29:13
ever been. I mean, look at access
29:16
management with password List. Look at ya, you know, identity
29:20
management with verified credential, you know, I Oh and
29:24
identity proofing. Look at I think that's the
29:28
biggest one privileged access management.
29:30
The space is just humongous when you think about managing
29:35
privilege in the cloud which basically all Cloud
29:38
infrastructure access is privileged access.
29:42
So exactly, you know, like as much as we might want to go from
29:47
80 products to one that might not be the right answer, you
29:51
know. Yeah.
29:52
Having one 30-minute trip. We all felt Kind of understand
29:55
what that's all about, but that's not necessarily the right
29:59
answer, right? Yeah.
30:00
And I think for today, if you're looking at Solutions today, I
30:04
would definitely, you know, obviously if you could do a
30:08
converge solution with with as many solutions as possible,
30:11
that's obviously great for Matty Co and cost and support, but I
30:16
would definitely don't compromise the functionality
30:19
that you need, you know, for a system such as IGA and Pam and
30:23
access management man there. Important.
30:24
So they could really make or break your security posture.
30:28
So you got, you know, it's not like you're you're getting some
30:32
other software that's not Mission critical.
30:34
So, I would definitely say you don't compromise and your
30:38
requirements. And, and frankly up to this
30:40
point, I have not seen. You know, those that are offered
30:42
kind of a lightweight lightweight IGA is part of
30:45
access management or other solutions.
30:48
That I haven't seen a lot of progress where they really are,
30:52
are providing the depth of The functionality that that's a
30:57
Sapient. And other IGA companies are
30:59
providing. So again, so there is an
31:01
acknowledgement there that is hard.
31:03
You know. All right.
31:03
Gia is not easy. Why I want to get into governs
31:07
Logan. I think you hit on something
31:09
that I tend to have a bone to pick with vendors and in any
31:12
space is they're selling you way more than you'll ever actually
31:16
need or use. So, I think of smaller IGA
31:18
players that are out there like, I Lantus secure and, you know,
31:23
Etc, that have Very good products and they might be good
31:27
enough for the vast majority of the use cases, that, that
31:30
organization is trying to solve. So I find it interesting as we
31:33
kind of had this conversation, go along and you know, obviously
31:36
got the established dominant players, like yourself and say,
31:38
0.0 Mata and kind of others. And it's almost like we've gone
31:43
full circle here, where we started off with platforms
31:46
about. I don't know 20 years ago where
31:48
it was like I am CA Oracle parapsychology don't even fit
31:54
Events are not flexible enough, right?
31:56
And then you have the upstarts, these little startups like sale
31:58
Point. Nobody knows who the heck, they
32:00
are right. They came in and kind of help
32:01
disrupt things. And now, it's like we could go.
32:04
We need an IGA tool and now the industry is again shifting
32:09
towards. Okay, well, we need a, a
32:11
converged tool which in my mind, I hear that was cool.
32:14
That sounds like a platform to me.
32:16
We have a bunch of these texts that, you know, things that are
32:18
kind of working together. I want to get specifically into
32:21
the governance, I think gay. Thank a lot of organizations
32:25
struggle with just basic identity.
32:27
Governance, that's where, you know, your cells sale point
32:31
omata. I Lantus secure ends, IBM one,
32:36
identity. I mean, there are dozens of
32:37
products in this space and through I guess I'm curious you
32:42
know what from your perspective sitting in the shoes that you've
32:45
had as both a Gartner analyst and now you know on the vendor
32:48
side of things with stadion? What is it?
32:50
That makes it so hard for people to Actually do and do right?
32:56
Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, I was privileged
32:59
to one of my first report was a gardener was guidance for
33:03
successful, IGA, implementations and got chance to talk a lot of
33:08
lot of Gartner clients about this document and in, yeah, the
33:13
there's definitely there's so many parts to to answer that
33:17
question, but I think it's always comes down to, if you
33:20
think about IGA it's almost like a I think of the The garbage in
33:26
garbage out kind of Paradigm in that you know your IGA is as
33:30
good as the data that comes into it and the and the data that
33:34
comes out and there's so many opportunities to make mistakes
33:38
that could be resolved in hundreds, if not thousands of
33:41
people losing access or getting the wrong access and then you
33:44
getting a black eye because of its you know, Asia as the I am
33:47
architect. And you know I've been there not
33:49
at that scale but I've been on the side of you.
33:52
Oops. You know somehow All those 50
33:55
people got deeper vision, sees, and a lot of times, it's okay.
33:59
Well HR you know, kicked something off and we did what HR
34:03
said, you know? So a lot of it is, is
34:07
understanding the data and making sure you have good data
34:10
governance from all the way from your sources of Truth, all the
34:13
way to the applications and really from a people process
34:18
standpoint, you even before you get an IGA solution, I should
34:22
tell clients this that gardener You know, document and
34:25
understand all those business processes and make sure, you
34:29
know, who's responsible for what information and who's
34:32
responsible for that business process and get them on your
34:35
side. Because you're essentially
34:38
automating a lot of that and IGA tool.
34:41
So I'd say that's one thing. The other is your, you always
34:44
want to start with your business drivers.
34:47
You know, and Garner. We had the kind of this
34:49
Foursquare chart that said, one was risk and Risk and compliance
34:55
the other was security, and the other one other was operational
34:59
efficiency and not forget the other one.
35:01
But anyway, but my point is that you should always start from
35:08
what are your business drivers? What are you trying to achieve?
35:10
And what is the top management want to see in this solution,
35:14
you know and it could it could change over time.
35:17
It could be one of those you know one year and then it
35:20
changes to another but if you're able to start and then Define
35:23
those use cases. From the top drivers, all the
35:26
way down that's going to help you kind of scope and prioritize
35:30
your deployment and that's kind of the other part of this answer
35:33
is that your deployment should be very well.
35:37
This is as thinly or kind of scoped, you know, very carefully
35:41
to, you know, minimize the damage that if something goes
35:45
wrong that it's kind of minute minimal minimized so to speak.
35:49
So and I look at IGA, it's kind of a novice Swiss army knife but
35:54
So many little bells and whistles that are part of these
35:57
tools. That it's easy to, okay, I got
36:00
this new tool and I'm just going to click the buttons and do a
36:04
bunch of cool stuff, but that's really a mistake.
36:07
And there's no manual that's going to tell you what to do at,
36:10
what time, that's where you guys come in.
36:12
That's where, you know, implementers and people who are
36:14
experienced at deployments come in and that's kind of the last
36:18
thing I'll say is bring someone in that really knows what
36:22
they're doing. They have some Battle Scars.
36:24
They I work in your industry, they've deployed the tools that
36:27
you've selected and you know, it's all about minimizing the
36:31
risk of going sideways, may you bring up a good point there.
36:34
I think there's something that, you know, we talked with our
36:36
clients all the time is, you know, a lot of times, yes, you
36:39
know, your personal technology and kind of, you know what, you
36:41
want to get out of it. When your experience, with that
36:44
technology will be greatly impacted by whoever's putting it
36:47
in place. So having people have that
36:49
experience and do have those Battle Scars as you mentioned,
36:51
right? Yeah.
36:52
You kind of helped me kind of keep things.
36:54
On the straight and narrow. Keep you honest formica
36:56
capability standpoint. I got kind of will side question
36:59
here because you know I think there is there are still a lot
37:03
of companies that have not taken the plunge into an IGA platform
37:09
for whatever reason. It may be, it could be, you
37:11
know, the company size is really small and they're getting by
37:13
with just a can full of people and it's probably Overkill at
37:16
that point, I still see a lot of organizations that are quite big
37:20
hundreds. Thousands of users that are not
37:22
in the IGA space. Ali.
37:24
They might have something like Microsoft, identity, manager or
37:27
some sort of, you know, kind of homegrown sort of semi identity
37:33
thing. Maybe it doesn't do the
37:35
governance and maybe just to keep it as tration, right,
37:37
right. Yes.
37:38
What I I'm curious to hear your perspective on is when is it the
37:43
right time for an organization to invest in an IGA platform and
37:49
say okay you know ex-service? Well I'll just pick on him, you
37:53
know, Microsoft a manager. Art as well.
37:55
We get by with it fine. But when is the right time to
37:57
say? Okay we need to kind of graduate
37:59
into modern identity management and we think IG is the right
38:03
space to go. Yeah.
38:06
Yeah, definitely. I think yeah there's a couple
38:07
factors there. One would be as you said most in
38:11
most cases that you'll see the tools like ma'am or maybe even
38:15
spreadsheets like people are doing access certifications by
38:18
doing you know, CSV extracts and putting a dumping it all into a
38:21
database and and so there's As a number of areas, I think where
38:26
companies are just going to start to see the feel the pain,
38:29
you know of either they're going to get an audit finding or God,
38:33
forbids, something happens and you know, compromise of some
38:37
kind. So, this, hopefully there's not
38:39
that event that that turns people to IGA, but I think a lot
38:43
of it is the pain and definitely at around 1,000 or so.
38:49
Employees is where I think most people.
38:51
Most companies will feel that pain because it just Too hard to
38:55
manage that manually, and it's kind of Jim alluded to the cloud
38:59
infrastructure. Every user is an entitled, every
39:02
users a privileged user. And if you look at the cloud and
39:06
Timeless themselves, that's kind of hundreds of thousands of
39:09
entitlements that nobody really knows.
39:12
If it's being used out there being used or not and they are
39:15
you overprivileged, which the answers 99%.
39:18
Yes. So there's a lot of reasons why
39:22
it makes sense for kind of those.
39:24
And those organizations to start looking at IGA and the other
39:27
thing is, you know, given now that these Solutions are SAS
39:30
delivered called a gardener basically, you know, consumable
39:34
in the cloud you don't need to stand up servers and
39:36
infrastructure. Which you guys know back in the
39:39
day was a pain in the pain in the rear.
39:41
And so that with that also comes, you know, with these
39:45
smaller organizations. They just don't have the staff
39:47
to stand up a, I am solution. So now that they have a SAS
39:52
solution, I think there's very little Reasons why not to, you
39:56
know, if you are kind of at that size to where it's just too
39:59
painful to manage manually, you know, and or regulations, I
40:04
heard a stat, the couple weeks ago about the Privacy, there's
40:09
like 75% of the world now has some sort of privacy regulations
40:13
and I know that's kind of more on the consumer side of things,
40:16
but it's not going to go away anytime soon.
40:19
There's there's going to be more regulations and, and there's
40:23
going to be Riley. Some new cyber security laws and
40:28
Reporting and responsibilities of reporting things so I think
40:32
it's just going to get even more.
40:34
So imperative for every company to be you know, cyber have a
40:39
good cyber hygiene. The IGA is definitely one of the
40:42
tools that'll help you in that journey.
40:45
I think that was a great answer is like as you're going I was
40:48
like up, but did you think of it?
40:50
Now we just answer that but the way I was going to put it was
40:55
When did you IGA before? It's too late.
40:57
So that was the, that major event item that you brought up,
41:01
or, I mean, before you hit some kind of rapid growth.
41:05
I move we worked with the company, Jeff.
41:08
And I, that quickly became 10,000 employees and did not
41:13
have an IGA system in place that's Way Beyond, you know, too
41:17
late. And I'll say one quick thing on
41:21
that, sorry to interrupt, but Ma Days and companies that do merge
41:27
or divest without IGA solution. It's like a very difficult
41:32
because you don't know what user has access to what, you know,
41:35
like you guys say you're beginning your podcast, it's all
41:38
about who has access to what you and I that's what I GA gives you
41:42
that answer and for those kind of m&a, situations, or you just
41:48
there's no way that you can figure that out easily when
41:52
you're doing those sorts of mas. And And maybe even Partnerships,
41:56
you know, more and more, especially smaller companies are
41:58
partnering with other companies. So there's a lot of B2B
42:01
relationships sticks. Here's what happens.
42:04
Here's what happened. So we got this phrase in in our
42:08
industry of jml Joyner, move earlier, I always love to fall
42:13
back on ads, remove changes but it's the same thing, right?
42:18
You have to be able to provision access when people join remove
42:23
access when they leave the company and you need to change
42:27
our success when they move around.
42:29
So as you grow, if you don't have automation, the first thing
42:32
to die of is that we deal with changes.
42:35
The second thing to die off is that we remove people when they
42:38
don't meet access anymore. When they've left the
42:41
organization, we're always going to give people access because
42:44
this creaky wheel gets the grease.
42:46
If somebody doesn't have the access, they're going to squeak.
42:49
So as you grow, well beyond that, that ability to manage it
42:53
manually is Those processes fall off and you just do the minimum
42:57
to get by. You become very insecure.
43:00
So that was my answer. I'm gonna say before it's too
43:03
late but not until you have the time to devote to doing it,
43:08
right? Because if you start a project
43:11
and your smes don't have the bandwidth to support the
43:14
project, you wind up spending a bunch of money for people to
43:19
follow up with people to try and get things to work when they've
43:22
got other priorities. And so I see see this in my
43:25
project sometimes where it's like, hey we've got the budget
43:28
for implementing an IGA right now, but our HR team can't
43:34
really support it and are as your team, can't really support
43:37
it and our ticketing management team.
43:39
Can't really support it. So, use the IEM and this is on
43:43
the integrator size like you just sit there and you bug
43:46
people and you send reminder emails and you join calls and
43:49
nobody joins on the other side. So if your, when you go into a
43:53
project to implement, IGA just make sure you remember it's
43:57
Middle where it doesn't do stuff by itself.
44:00
It requires integration to all these other systems and if the
44:05
teams on the other end on time to support it is going to cost a
44:10
lot more it's going to go a lot slower degree and if you made a
44:15
good point around, that's another kind of tentative
44:18
successful implementation, is it?
44:20
Yeah. If you're able to start like a
44:21
year ahead of even choosing a vendor, And you just start
44:25
socializing it and you start getting the HRS and all the
44:28
right teams kind of onboard and then they can kind of standing.
44:32
Yeah. And then they Coulda say, okay,
44:34
I'm going to kind of carve out a few hours or something.
44:38
Make sure that my Engineers have availability for you.
44:41
You know, next quarter, you know, the worst thing is to kind
44:43
of come up last minute and say you know, I'm implementing the
44:46
system this weekend, can you support me?
44:48
You know, that's the way to make enemies very quick make enemies
44:51
like to not succeed. Exactly one.
44:54
Stereo that I wanted to touch on.
44:57
Ignore, you know, going along those converged identity and you
45:00
guys really take it at least a secondary focus on privileged
45:05
access management. However, you want to find that
45:09
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but in terms of this
45:13
privileged access management and the cloud specifically was
45:17
really it's so here's my perspective is that the IM
45:21
practitioners are inheriting a cloud, Environment at some
45:25
point. So typically what I see is that
45:30
some development team, had a project to launch some
45:34
applications in. They get an AWS account and
45:40
start doing it more in a modern way where they're doing
45:44
containerization. They're doing devops.
45:47
And then the it the the I am will call it.
45:51
The I am team comes along and it's like we've got a secure.
45:54
This. You got to take all the controls
45:57
that we have in our on-prem environment.
46:00
We need to apply those in the cloud.
46:03
But they're behind there behind the curve, right?
46:06
All this stuff is already been built.
46:07
So my question is, where do you think they should start?
46:12
So should they start by doing, you know, taking their existing,
46:17
I am tools and you know, trying to see how far they can get in
46:21
the cloud with those. Is it that they should, you
46:26
know, really just I don't know. Let me know that question.
46:29
You, where do you think the practitioner should start?
46:33
Art. Yeah.
46:34
And and I think that's really why some of these Solutions.
46:38
You know, I wrote a paper on on this before they actually called
46:42
it. See I am or Kim but there's
46:45
emergence of these these vendors that address that specific use
46:50
case around the cloud entitlements.
46:51
And I think that's somewhat came up.
46:54
From fact, I think I don't know the status like, 80 years 90
46:58
percent of organizations are multi-cloud and so yeah you
47:02
might have a strategy Around your AWS or Azure kind of access
47:06
management. But once your multi-cloud, how
47:09
is it that you're going to kind of make sense of all of those
47:11
entitlements and kind of from that again, from that place to
47:15
answer who has access to, what were they doing with it.
47:18
So, in some cases, if you have, I mean, right now, I believe
47:24
will at least save you and we had we've already had some sort
47:28
of this built into our product around the cloud entitlements.
47:33
And but other salute, other vendors have kind of done some
47:37
Acquisitions, you know, like Microsoft acquired Cloud Knox.
47:40
So that's part of their permissions management and so, I
47:44
think there's some kind of movement going on in the market.
47:47
I would participate there be similar things going on there.
47:50
Sale Point acquired, something, cyborg built built their own
47:54
kind of Kim capability. So it's definitely an area that
47:58
has arisen. So if you have a product
48:00
already, obviously, you may already have some Those
48:03
capabilities built-in and therefore like us again we have
48:10
we have that capability to. So I would recommend that if you
48:13
don't and you already have Solutions built in and you're
48:17
looking for a kind of specialized Solutions, make sure
48:21
that they have supported Integrations with a lot of the
48:24
different, you know, the vendors.
48:27
So the answer, you're more or less going with is is the key,
48:30
man. Sir, and I was interesting
48:32
because those kind of Thinking that you're going to go with
48:36
more of the, the governance IGA answer, which is like, hey, make
48:41
sure that in your IGA system, you kind of know who has access
48:45
to what, which may be that. I kind of feel like Keem bolts
48:50
onto that. It exactly.
48:52
I mean, that was always my opinion.
48:53
When we kind of came up with the acronym its Cloud
48:56
infrastructure, entitlement management it to me.
48:59
That's IGA, but the Market vendors, Is kind of taken a
49:04
different kind of approach. You know.
49:06
Pam vendors are jumping on the him bandwagon so I guess from a
49:11
vendor perspective may not always be inherent in the Kim.
49:14
Still in a IG, a solution ours is so I always thought that
49:19
that's your right there. Kind of they should be very
49:22
tightly integrated or within the same solution that would be my
49:25
my recommendation for sure. So I have three questions for
49:29
you is it Linux or line x 2? Tomato or tomato.
49:35
Kim. Or key more?
49:36
Just answer that third one. Yeah, it's definitely Kim.
49:40
Yeah. So we came up with instead of
49:41
see I am which sounds a lot like see I am so we said okay also I
49:47
think there was another way we're looking at a cloud access
49:51
management cam or something. We should know that's the not
49:53
going to work, soak it. So we thought Kim was kind of a
49:56
cute way of, you know, calling see IEM without trying to
50:00
confuse it. You put a name on a very complex
50:03
Problem. Yeah, exactly.
50:05
Exactly. I know we're running out of time
50:07
here. So I want to make sure that we
50:08
are. We have enough time to talk
50:10
about another passion of yours which is classic cars.
50:15
So we kind of end on a lighter note around here, that's going
50:17
to bring things up from the very heavy identity governance
50:19
talked. We just had I guess here's my
50:22
first question for you. I guess how do you define a
50:25
classic car and then the second part of that is, what is your
50:28
ultimate classic car? Yeah.
50:31
Yeah we'll definitely a classic car.
50:33
I kind of am from a career standpoint, would be something
50:36
that's kind of, at least is older than like a 70.
50:42
Don't know as funny because I'm in a car club and we just
50:45
updated our inclusion criteria. This from like a 72 and older to
50:52
like 79. So, I think somewhere in the 70s
50:55
that a, You could argue, I'm sure there's people that want to
50:58
make it, you know, if some 80s cars.
51:00
But frankly, I think the 80s is really where things.
51:03
Going downhill with the terms of cars and performance, but really
51:07
those classic cars youth least the way I look at it is, you
51:11
know, they have super big engines that don't get good gas
51:16
mileage. Unfortunately, for those of you
51:17
out there, don't mean to offend anyone.
51:20
But it's so it's basically and then they're, they're like weigh
51:25
a ton that you look at them demand, they're just huge.
51:29
You know, cars and they have really good looking Interiors.
51:32
A lot of them. Um, maybe even more modeled
51:35
after airplanes and stuff, the airplane interiors and things.
51:38
So there's a lot of kind of different approaches to classic
51:42
cars, but I would say, definitely something in the 70s
51:44
or earlier goes back all the way to the 30s.
51:48
And something that could possibly be really fast and loud
51:54
and a lot of different colors to, you know, two-tone
51:58
interiors, and those kind of things.
52:00
So my favorite of course, is I'm going to say The class car that
52:04
I have is a 1964 Buick Riviera. And so the Riviera that's first
52:10
year they came out with 63, I got a 64, they call those.
52:14
The first Generations, they had a number of generations where
52:17
they kind of changed the body style but that's my favorite
52:20
from 63 to 65. The body style is I think the
52:23
coolest so you guys you know can can check those out on the
52:27
internet but very different from the other 60s cars at the time.
52:31
If you look at like the Impalas Or the the Thunderbird was kind
52:34
of the first. The Ford Thunderbird was kind of
52:37
the first what they call a personal luxury vehicle and that
52:42
was kind of what Ford was wanting to do.
52:44
So you know I'm sleepy awaken others came out with their
52:47
version. So definitely the Buick Riviera
52:50
is my favorite So far, if I get another one, I'll let you know
52:55
as I might change my mind. Jim.
52:58
How about yourself? What do you got for a classic
53:00
car. So if I had to pick one, it
53:04
would be the 57 Corvette. It's kind of a roadster.
53:10
I mean those cars are just like they just scream luxury and
53:15
performance but not luxury. They scream performance from
53:19
that era and they're just You can't help but turn your head
53:23
when one goes by. So but the thing is I'm not that
53:27
handy so I'd have to buy one to somebody else restored.
53:31
I don't have to have a mechanic. Who would come in, do repairs on
53:34
it. So it would be a lot more
53:36
expensive than, than just, you know, getting one and restoring
53:40
it myself. That's not going to happen.
53:43
Couple you Jeff. Well I'm not much of a car guy
53:47
and we were kind of joking about this before we hit record is
53:49
like you know mine is going to be, you know, we're probably
53:51
like oh it's you know the first Tesla Roadster some like that
53:54
because I have a big family like you know, if I could have my fun
53:59
answer will be the door and from Back to the Future, I'm going to
54:02
call that classic only because it's from my past, my youth.
54:06
I've always been a fan of the Lamborghini.
54:07
Diablo, I just love the way it looks.
54:10
I'm more of like a Supercar kind of classic.
54:13
You know, I think that, I think that the whole point of that
54:17
vehicle was that it had to be as fast as possible.
54:19
I think I like had to wake be, at least.
54:21
I'm not sure what the mph were, but I had to be a be able to go
54:24
at least 315 km/h, which is crazy.
54:28
Fast is fast. Yeah, so I was, that would
54:32
probably be like my classic card.
54:34
I don't think that was goes back to the 70s.
54:35
I can't be part of Paul's Club, but it's like any other.
54:39
It's like any other industry, where you a classic, write all
54:41
the music that I used to listen in high school?
54:43
Is now on classic, you know, radio stations.
54:46
So at some point you know, you'll hear Nirvana on the
54:49
oldies station and you're going to realize what the hell
54:51
happened to my life souls and take?
54:54
It was just yesterday. So whenever a Lamborghini
54:57
Diablo, we, my will be my answer.
55:01
Well, I like the Countach man. That was like the 80s.
55:04
Yeah, like the Miami Vice kind of Swing the door swing and all
55:08
the Lamborghinis are sweet. All right, we've had a lot of
55:12
good conversation today. Say, you know, Paul, I know we
55:14
want a little bit longer than we probably anticipated, but really
55:16
appreciate you kind of helping be part of this conversation,
55:19
kind of share your expertise and viewpoints.
55:22
We're going to go ahead and leave it.
55:23
I think for this week, we know now with our classic car
55:26
selections, are we know a lot more about the IGA space and
55:29
some of the things that people should be considering when it
55:32
comes to deployments and selecting products and so forth.
55:35
We also got some scoop on some Gartner stuff which is pretty
55:38
cool and kind of pulling back the curtain a little bit.
55:40
So, thank you for that and also in our show notes, I'll have a
55:43
link To Paul, hopefully he's okay with me asking him for the
55:45
first time on air since he's okay with connecting with people
55:48
on LinkedIn. So I won't do that.
55:50
Also have a link to Sabian and their website and kind of find
55:53
out more about what CBN sup to from an identity perspective in
55:56
our show notes as well as links for Jim.
55:59
And I if people want to connect their and we're also have to
56:01
continue the conversation. So you can also find us on the
56:04
web. We're at identity at the
56:06
center.com. We're on Twitter at idac podcast
56:10
and with that. Thanks everyone for listening
56:12
and we'll talk with everyone. One in the next one.
56:17
Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast.
56:20
If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and
56:23
visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.