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#0125_ STORY INSPIRE: The Truth About Life-Changing Decisions · INSPIRE STORY

0:04
Speaker 1: The Joe Rogan experience.
0:06
Speaker 2: Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
0:12
Speaker 1: That's wild.
0:12
Speaker 2: I went in because I came.
0:15
Speaker 1: In from Miami.
0:15
Speaker 3: I think I was leaving at the time and I
0:16
went in and, uh, and, uh, I'm sitting in the
0:21
waiting room and it was like on a Sunday because
0:23
it was, I was like, I'm only in town for it.
0:25
Speaker 1: And Stan was like, I'll come into the office.
0:26
Speaker 3: I'm like, thank you so much. I had to have some,
0:28
a filling or whatever I needed. It's a kind of
0:30
an emergency. So I'm sitting in the thing and, uh,
0:34
And I'm not getting called in, but there's not even
0:38
a receptionist. And Stan comes out with his mask on. No,
0:41
the first thing I hear is.
0:43
Speaker 1: Pig fucker, fucking pig fucker. And I'm like, what is
0:47
happening in there? It's in the other room. And Stan
0:49
comes in with his mask on. He goes, sorry. He goes,
0:51
I'll be with you soon. He goes, I got Hunter
0:53
in the chair. And he goes back.
0:55
Speaker 3: And I hear, listen to Hunter Thompson swear for like
0:58
15 minutes. I'm like, this is amazing. And then Stan goes, okay,
1:01
come on back. And Hunter's kind of getting out. And
1:04
he goes, oh, you're sitting down with this guy? He's
1:06
a fucking assassin. And then he goes, and he's got
1:10
this jug of clear fluid.
1:15
Speaker 1: And he's like, you're going to need a sip of this.
1:17
And I'm like, oh, my God, this is fucking Hunter S.
1:19
Thompson's moonshine. I'm like, this is fucking amazing. I'm talking
1:26
to this dude for 30 seconds.
1:27
Speaker 2: And I'm getting a sip.
1:29
Speaker 1: And it was like 10 in the morning on a Sunday.
1:31
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:32
Speaker 1: He was halfway through the jug. Pure fucking like– Where
1:36
was this? In Beverly Hills. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Brentwood. Yeah,
1:41
Brentwood was Stan's office.
1:42
Speaker 2: Oh, my god.
1:43
Speaker 1: That's amazing. It really was amazing. It was– so I
1:46
had probably a total of seven.
1:47
Speaker 3: Minutes with him and it was like– I could not
1:51
have been a better seven minutes.
1:52
Speaker 2: That's incredible. I went to the Woody Creek Tavern just
1:56
to go there because I know he used to go there.
1:57
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:58
Speaker 2: He could like feel him in the building. You know,
2:00
there's all the pictures in the walls. It's a cool
2:02
little place.
2:03
Speaker 1: I mean, those books, fucking Hell's Angels and, you know,
2:06
Fear and Loathing, it's some of the best writing. I
2:09
just fucking, like, he really had his own voice. Rum
2:12
Diary is spectacular, you know. It was, like, really descriptive
2:15
and punchy and fucking interesting and fucked up. And he
2:18
also just lived that life.
2:19
Speaker 2: Fear and Loathing changed my life. Like, reading that book
2:22
was like. What the fuck? Like, what is this guy doing?
2:25
These grown men out there, balding, grown men with spectacles
2:30
running around with them.
2:31
Speaker 1: There's lizards in the fucking lounge.
2:34
Speaker 2: These guys are hallucinating. He's got a day trip bag
2:38
filled with acid. Like, what the fuck are you doing, man?
2:41
Speaker 1: And it's great shit. It's like you fucking feel like
2:44
you're on the adventure with him, you know? Yeah.
2:47
Speaker 2: No, it's interesting to watch the evolution of his writing, too.
2:51
You know, like, I read Hell's Angels, and it's, like,
2:54
very different. Yeah, it's early.
2:55
Speaker 1: He's kind of restrained, and he was quite, like... For that,
2:58
I think it was edgy, sort of, for the time. Yeah. Like, oh,
3:01
you're going to get beaten, chain-whipped, and stomped by the angels.
3:04
And that was really edgy. And by the time they
3:06
got into, what, A Sphere of Loneliness, 72, or something
3:08
like that, he was just out there.
3:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was gone.
3:11
Speaker 1: He found his voice.
3:12
Speaker 2: He did find his voice. He was supposed to be
3:14
covering a race, right? For like Sports Illustrated. That's a
3:19
fear and loathing when I read a book.
3:20
Speaker 1: About how I fucking lost my mind.
3:24
Speaker 2: Great.
3:25
Speaker 1: It's great, Hunter. We'll take it.
3:27
Speaker 2: Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you guys. I
3:29
met you before, but very nice to meet you. It's
3:30
a pleasure, man.
3:30
Speaker 1: Thank you very much.
3:32
Speaker 2: I love the fucking movie. The rip is great. It's
3:35
really good. It's so original and it's so different. And it's,
3:39
you know, it's like I love those kind of movies,
3:41
but it's not like any one that I've ever seen before.
3:44
Really solid movie.
3:45
Speaker 1: Thanks, dude. Thank you. It was awesome. So much better
3:48
than you hating it and us having sex.
3:50
Speaker 2: The interviews where they're like, so I saw the movie. Anyway,
3:52
how you guys been?
3:53
Speaker 1: We've had a lot of those.
3:55
Speaker 3: The press junkets where they come in and the first
3:56
thing that you know the movie sucks.
3:58
Speaker 1: If they don't ask you anything about the movie, they
4:00
come in and they go, so how you been? And
4:02
you're like, oh, shit. This is going to be bad.
4:04
Speaker 2: Is it weird? The transformation of the film industry seems
4:09
like a lot of it is moving towards these big
4:12
streaming movies now.
4:14
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean, look. it's because where most people have
4:17
gone to watch them. Yeah. Like used to be the
4:19
only place you'd go see movies in the forties, like
4:22
every American with the movie every week, basically. But it
4:25
was cause it was that, or watch the cows walk by,
4:27
you know, that was the only, and then TV comes around.
4:30
It's a little, and you see these little cereals, but
4:33
you know, what happened was now this is why that's
4:35
totally changed the whole thing because you have 300 million people,
4:39
three or 30, whatever it is watching, you know, Netflix and,
4:42
And it's a lot harder to get people to go
4:44
into the movies. There's also YouTube. There's also TikTok. There's
4:47
also my kids. Like, it's hard to get them excited
4:49
about a movie. Yeah. That's what we had. I mean, yeah,
4:52
that was our I mean, our teen years were just
4:55
every weekend. We're at the movies.
4:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.
4:57
Speaker 3: There's just no question about it. You were going to
4:59
go and usually not get into one because there were
5:01
too many people. And then you just see what else
5:02
is playing and go to that.
5:03
Speaker 2: Well, it seems like it was kind of slipping away
5:06
because so many people were watching streaming already. And then
5:08
COVID came around and everyone was locked down and no
5:11
one was going to the movie theater. And then it
5:13
just set in.
5:14
Speaker 1: I had this drama that was coming out right when
5:16
COVID hit. I really liked the movie, performance movie. It's
5:19
about an alcoholic guy whose kid dies and becomes an alcoholic.
5:23
It's a dark movie, but I loved it. And I
5:26
could tell, like, we're fucked. No one's going to go
5:27
to the theater to see this movie. And it wasn't
5:29
even that streaming really blew up, of course, during COVID. So,
5:33
you know, look, they rushed it onto streaming. People actually
5:35
saw it. I was like, all things being equal, I'd
5:38
like people to see it. And it's not like my
5:40
dad had an 11-inch black-and-white TV, and that's what was
5:43
TV viewing. Now it's like $ 200. You've got a fucking
5:45
65-inch flat screen and good sound. So, of course, people
5:49
are willing to. And then streamers also started making great shows.
5:53
You have Adolescence. I think that's one of the best
5:55
things ever done.
5:57
Speaker 2: I haven't seen Adolescence.
5:57
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. What is it? Oh, my God. I don't
6:02
want to spoil too much of it. It's only four episodes.
6:04
They're all one shot. They're all one shot. Each episode
6:06
is one entire shot. Whoa.
6:08
Speaker 3: So the cast, they took, I think, I talked to
6:10
the director about it. The cast took, I think, a
6:12
week to rehearse each one and then a week to
6:15
shoot it. And so they do it twice a day.
6:18
It's the full hour they would choreograph the entire thing.
6:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really.
6:23
Speaker 3: And then the acting is great. But that's, I mean,
6:26
just dismiss that. You could even call it a gimmick.
6:29
It's not in this case, but. The performances and the
6:32
writing and what it's about, it's as good as anything
6:37
you'll see.
6:38
Speaker 1: It's phenomenal. What is it on? Netflix. It's not even
6:43
an anomaly. There's Baby Rangers. There's fucking Succession. There's Game
6:46
of Thrones. Ozarks. It's just like, okay, well, they're doing
6:51
great shit out there. It's not like this sort of.
6:53
implied thing before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as good,
6:57
not as interesting. It's a serial.
6:58
Speaker 3: When we started, it was, there was a different, I mean,
7:00
like George Clooney, for instance, like there was a big thing,
7:03
you know, he very famously, you know, became this superstar
7:06
on ER. That show, 40 million people a week were
7:09
watching that show.
7:10
Speaker 1: It was the biggest thing, right?
7:12
Speaker 3: Because there were only a few channels to tune into,
7:14
and that show was the biggest one. And George never
7:17
renegotiated his contract. He wanted to work in movies, and
7:19
it was like you can't go from TV to movies.
7:21
Speaker 1: Very few people can do it.
7:24
Speaker 3: And he really strategically and kind of patiently, like he
7:28
joked that on the last episode he was on, Anthony Edwards,
7:32
you know, his co-star, was making a million bucks for
7:35
the episode, and he was making, you know, 20 grand
7:37
or whatever his deal was. Like he could have renegotiated
7:40
but he would have had to give more years.
7:41
Speaker 1: The point was that's how bad he wanted to get
7:43
off TV and do movies.
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Speaker 3: That's how bad he wanted to get off the biggest
7:46
TV show in the world because there was such a big.
7:50
Speaker 1: Kind of level change between features and TV.
7:53
Speaker 2: Well, it was a giant difference in quality. It was
7:55
also the breaking it up for commercials.
7:57
Speaker 1: Right. It was just a different experience. It couldn't be–
7:59
there's all these rules. You can't say this. You can't
8:02
do that. You can't swear. You can't have violence and
8:04
all the things people want to see in movies. And
8:06
then– And also it wasn't as interesting. And then now
8:10
that's tethered to these schedules and all this stuff, whereas
8:13
you get this shit, like you don't have a schedule
8:15
and you can take a bunch of risks. And that
8:18
started happening. And then it was kind of like, well,
8:20
this all is just as good if not better than
8:23
what's in the movies. Well, then movies started to move
8:25
towards more IP. Because it was hard to get people
8:27
to come to the movies, everyone got scared and thought, well,
8:30
it has to be a sequel or a superhero movie.
8:32
Speaker 3: And so an interesting little movie, kind of in the
8:35
90s when we kind of came onto the scene, you know,
8:38
there were a lot of really good independent movies that
8:40
were being made. There was, you know, it was a
8:43
really great time to be making movies. People were, they
8:46
were making daring movies. And then everyone just got way
8:50
more conservative because it's, Huge. Like the business is so
8:54
different theatrically and streaming because to put out a movie theatrically,
8:58
you have to put so much more money behind it
9:00
to publicize.
9:01
Speaker 1: Like you're trying to get everybody– You're basically spending about
9:03
what the budget was to make it to advertise it.
9:05
Because you got– And you get 50 percent of the
9:07
theatrical– Yeah, because you split it with the movie house, right,
9:09
through the exhibitor. So a $ 25 million movie to break in,
9:11
you got to make $ 100 million.
9:12
Speaker 3: And you got to get everybody to not only know
9:16
about the movie but to show up like that Friday night.
9:19
like that specific time, you know, for that specific movie.
9:22
And so did, and to cut through all the noise
9:24
that people are contending with and, you know, it.
9:27
Speaker 1: Just becomes about risk and nobody wants to take the risk.
9:28
So they don't want to make something new because it's
9:30
such an investment and we're going to lose our fucking money.
9:33
And the streamers have stepped into that and like, no,
9:35
you know, you don't have to have a star. You
9:37
could try something more interesting or didn't have to be
9:39
a superhero movie, whatever it was. And also I think
9:43
it's like, you know, frankly, like people my age, like,
9:47
First of all, it's expensive. You take your whole family,
9:49
it's $ 100. You're on a streaming service, $ 20 a month.
9:51
You can watch all you want. So you can't be
9:53
cavalier about like, you're just going to price it however
9:55
the fuck you want and expect everyone to like be
9:58
indifferent to that. And then, you know, also, you know,
10:02
the idea of like, for me, you know, there's a
10:04
lot of stuff. I make that decision. Like, do I
10:06
want to see the odyssey on, on a big screen?
10:08
Fucking deaf. I went to a theater to just watch
10:10
the trailer for that movie. And, you know, did I
10:12
at one battle after another, I wanted to go see
10:14
in the theater, but there's movies with people that I
10:16
really like and respect where, Yeah, and I got a
10:18
good system and shit, but I'm like, look, I'll watch
10:20
it and I might get tired or I won't pause
10:22
it and take a piss or the kids, you know,
10:23
whatever it is. That's conducive to my lifestyle, you know,
10:27
and so I even see a few. I think most
10:29
people are, yeah.
10:30
Speaker 2: But there is the experience of seeing it with a
10:32
bunch of other people and seeing an awesome movie with
10:34
a bunch of other people. It's like a shared experience.
10:36
Speaker 1: A hundred percent. I always like an attention.
10:39
Speaker 3: Way more– like when I went to see one battle
10:41
on IMAX, like that feeling, there's nothing like that feeling.
10:45
I took two of my kids and two of my
10:47
nephews and my wife and we all went and it
10:49
was just– it was like– and you're in with a
10:53
bunch of strangers, the people in your community and you're
10:56
having this experience together. I always say it's more like
10:58
going to church. Like you show up at an appointed time.
11:02
You know what I mean?
11:02
Speaker 1: It doesn't wait for you.
11:05
Speaker 3: Versus the experience of watching at home I think. you know,
11:09
you're watching in a room, the lights are on, other
11:11
shit's going on, the kids are running around, the.
11:13
Speaker 1: Dogs are running around, whatever it is. You know what
11:15
I mean?
11:15
Speaker 3: It's just a very different level of attention that you're
11:18
willing to, or that you're able to give to it.
11:21
Speaker 1: And that has a big effect.
11:22
Speaker 3: And it also ends up having an effect or is
11:24
starting to have an effect on how you make movies.
11:27
Like for instance, Netflix, you know, standard way to make
11:32
an action movie that we learned was, you know, you
11:35
usually have like three set pieces, one in the first act,
11:37
one in the second, one in the third. And, you know,
11:39
you kind of, they kind of ramp up and the
11:41
big one with all the explosions and you spend most
11:43
of your money on that one in the third act,
11:44
that's your kind of finale. And now they're, you know,
11:48
they're like, can we get a big one in the
11:50
first five minutes to get somebody, you know, we want
11:52
people to stay tuned in and can, and, you know,
11:56
it wouldn't be terrible.
11:56
Speaker 1: If you reiterated the plot.
11:59
Speaker 3: Three or four times in the dialogue because people are
12:01
on their phones while they're watching.
12:03
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? And so then it's going
12:05
to really start to infringe on Creatively. Yeah, how we're
12:08
telling the story. Yeah, but then you look at our lessons.
12:10
It didn't do any of that shit. It didn't do
12:11
any of that. And it was fucking great. You know
12:13
what I mean? So I think it's dark, too. It's
12:16
tragic and intense. It's like a guy who finds out
12:19
these kids are accused of murder, and it's like, you know,
12:23
and there's long shots in the back of their head.
12:25
They get in the car. Nobody says anything. I think
12:28
there are those– I wish that were that. It feels
12:31
more like the exception.
12:33
Speaker 3: It's so– masterfully made that it feels a little more
12:36
like the accept.
12:37
Speaker 1: I hope it's not. My feeling is just that it
12:39
demonstrates that you don't need to do any of that
12:40
shit to get people, you know what I mean? Like,
12:43
and I think, you know, yes, you know, like, okay,
12:45
the town had the action scene at the beginning of
12:46
the first five minutes. Cause I, you know what I mean?
12:48
Like it's a, it's a common trick that you would
12:50
go like, let me grab them and get them invested in.
12:53
It's like the movies that start with the hero hanging
12:55
from the cliff. And now we're going to flash back
12:57
to the beginning and tell you how they got there. Um, it's,
13:01
you know, I always feel like, uh, you know, complaining
13:04
about it makes me feel like one of these guys
13:05
was like when i was a boy like you always
13:07
want to freeze the culture at the time when you
13:09
i don't know felt more like you know we didn't
13:11
used to have these phones the fuck are all these
13:13
phone and everybody's looking i get it yes it's true
13:16
also it's like supplying demand people want to look at
13:19
their phone they can look at tiktok they want you
13:20
know they're going to do that i think what you
13:22
can do is make shit the best you can make
13:25
it really good and you know people can still go
13:28
to the movies not like We have this idea that
13:30
it's like an existential threat. Everything that comes along is
13:33
going to destroy everything instead of like– what history suggests
13:37
is that there's like marginal encroachments. Things shift. Yep. As
13:40
television came along, there was less theater going. That's still
13:43
going to happen and people are still going to go
13:44
to the movies because of what you said. Like it
13:46
feels like a cool thing to do. I'm going to
13:47
go see The Odyssey. I guarantee you in a theater,
13:51
no matter what. Viewer of them, you could argue that's
13:54
because I have more choice or whatever it is. It's
13:56
hard to fight supply and demand. That's the trick, right?
13:59
If people want to watch a bunch of stuff at
14:01
home because they invested in TVs and cost us money,
14:04
they will. So, OK. But the upside of that is
14:08
like I can try to do something. Hopefully that's like
14:11
that actually doesn't need to, you know, have the most
14:14
urgency to get you to come to the theater with
14:17
your family. That's a little more experimental or risk taking
14:19
or whatever in that way.
14:20
Speaker 2: Well, you got to adapt. I mean, there's no way
14:22
you're going to change people's viewing habits now. I mean,
14:25
what percentage of Netflix is actually watched on phones? It's
14:29
got to be pretty high, which is insane.
14:31
Speaker 1: Yeah. Even watching on a laptop for me is kind
14:34
of like kind of sucks.
14:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sucks.
14:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a.
14:37
Speaker 3: Joke that I like to make with every director I
14:39
work with, like when they're really puzzling over a shot
14:42
or really grinding out something, I go, you know, it's
14:44
not going to look as good on the phone.
14:47
Speaker 1: Just everyone gets angry. No, that's going to look great.
14:52
This fucking bigs, but keep fucking around and lighting that wall.
14:56
Speaker 2: It is weird though. The concern for the algorithm, like
14:59
making sure that people watch, like, look, we've got data
15:01
that shows within the first five minutes when this happens,
15:03
they tune out. So let's– like my buddy Tony Hinchcliffe,
15:06
he's got Kill Tony and now it's on Netflix. And
15:08
so they're giving him notes now and they can give
15:11
him like– but they're not telling him what to do.
15:13
But they're saying like this is when people are tuning out.
15:15
And so let's– just so you have that data, now
15:18
decide how you want to edit things. It's like– yeah.
15:22
Slippery slope.
15:22
Speaker 3: It is because the– it's like the bar for– walking
15:31
out of a movie theater is a lot higher than
15:33
from just changing the channel.
15:35
Speaker 1: Right. Right.
15:35
Speaker 3: And oftentimes, you know, you directors will want to make
15:39
a movie that is challenging and upsetting.
15:42
Speaker 1: And I remember Terry Kinney, my, my friend, great actor.
15:44
Speaker 3: And he, he told me about the experience of seeing
15:47
taxi driver in New York for the first.
15:49
Speaker 1: Time, right.
15:50
Speaker 3: In 76 or whenever it came out. And he said,
15:53
What I remember is not only the movie, but I
15:56
remember standing.
15:57
Speaker 1: At the back because I had got up.
15:59
Speaker 3: I got up out of my seat and I went,
16:01
but I couldn't bring myself to leave because I was
16:03
so invested. But I was because I was standing at
16:05
the back by the door watching the movie. And he
16:07
goes and there were two other people standing next to
16:09
me who were.
16:10
Speaker 1: Doing the same thing.
16:11
Speaker 2: Just because they were disturbed?
16:12
Speaker 1: Because the movie was disturbing them so much. Wow. Which
16:15
is not a bad thing, right?
16:16
Speaker 3: Right. So had that been on Netflix or Amazon, you know,
16:19
if somebody goes, oh, I'm disturbed, and they change the channel.
16:22
Speaker 1: Yeah.
16:23
Speaker 3: Like, that doesn't mean you shouldn't make Taxi Driver.
16:25
Speaker 1: Right.
16:26
Speaker 2: That's true. Like, the investment of going to a place
16:28
is much greater.
16:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. And one of the values of that is that
16:31
you could look at movies from the 70s and 80s.
16:33
The first act was 25, 30 minutes.
16:35
Speaker 2: Right.
16:35
Speaker 1: You know, The Verdict, for instance, is a great movie.
16:37
It takes a long time to get going. Look at
16:39
The Deer Hunter. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's... And,
16:41
and you're right. Like what you're saying, the threshold for
16:43
walkout is real. Like any scene, like, ah, I want
16:46
to watch naked and alone, you know, you flip the fucking,
16:49
so you're, you are battling that.
16:51
Speaker 2: And you know, I watched LeMans the other night, Steve McQueen,
16:55
and there's no one talks for like five minutes. There's
16:58
no talking. It's just a bunch of stuff getting done.
17:00
Just a bunch of people doing things. And it's like, wow,
17:03
you could make it different. You could let it air
17:05
out back then.
17:06
Speaker 1: Yeah.
17:07
Speaker 2: They had a different respect for what it was. Like
17:10
you were telling a story and you're going to let
17:12
it air out.
17:13
Speaker 1: Well, they also knew where their audience was. They were
17:15
in a theater. Part of it was they wanted to
17:17
come there. I mean the great story I like is
17:19
the first time they debuted a movie, guys with a
17:23
projector in a room full of people. It was a
17:27
movie of a train pulling into the station. So they
17:29
put the reel up and they did the demonstration and
17:31
they showed the people and everybody missed it because they
17:34
were turned around staring at the projector. Because they've never
17:36
fucking seen anything like that. It's like the technology is upstaging.
17:40
But you come for an event. Come for a thing.
17:42
We're all going to be here. That's part of it. It's,
17:46
I don't know. There's competing arguments. You can think, well,
17:49
what do you get to do? And some people just
17:50
go ahead and fuck it. Like Jim Cameron's Avatar. I'm
17:53
going to make my three-hour movie. And people are going
17:55
to come. And great. You know what I mean? And
17:57
people say, oh, well, you can't have a three-hour movie.
17:59
And he's like, well, I'm Jim Cameron. And I've actually
18:01
got the number one and two in movies. I think
18:03
I got this. He goes ahead and does it. You know,
18:05
this history is full of people who got told a
18:08
bunch of conventional wisdom and were like, yeah, but we're
18:10
going to do something different. And as it turns out,
18:13
like that's actually what people want to is not for
18:15
you to just repeat the other shit that's been done
18:17
before or worked before.
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features and network management details. One of the things I
19:11
read that I thought was really fucking cool is you
19:13
guys set it up so that if this film performs well,
19:17
the entire crew gets bonuses.
19:20
Speaker 1: Yeah.
19:20
Speaker 2: That's awesome.
19:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, hopefully it's successful. I think it's going to be
19:26
a shit house if it doesn't.
19:27
Speaker 2: It's a fucking great movie, man. It's a fun movie.
19:29
Speaker 1: But it's good, but it's not like, you know, fucking
19:32
we're saints or a philanthropist. Like, it's completely self-serving, in
19:35
my opinion. Because in order to do the job well,
19:38
everybody who's working on it has to be really invested
19:41
and give a shit about the result. Not their paycheck only.
19:44
And sometimes you're with a crew that just happen to
19:46
be great anyway, even though they don't really have to
19:49
care about it. and they do. And what we saw
19:51
was like, that makes your movie better. And then there's
19:54
just the thing of like, the business is changing. You
19:56
see these strikes and work stops and all these fucking questions.
19:59
In order for this, I think, to survive and to be,
20:03
you know, a good middle class fucking artist, you know,
20:07
artisanal craftsman job, We've got 1,200 people that, you know,
20:12
need to have reliable jobs. And part of the negotiations
20:15
is always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're all going
20:18
to get fucked. Like, we have no participation. Like, we
20:20
used to work on movies, and it happens to actors too,
20:22
where you go, oh, we all invested. It was really hard,
20:25
and we fucking put in the extra effort. Somebody else
20:27
walked away with all the success. And, you know, my
20:31
theory was with Matt was we were like, how about
20:34
where let's say, okay, it's just fairness, right? If this
20:36
thing actually blows up and does really well, you should
20:39
benefit from that. People have been, you know, kind of
20:42
given sort of promises of participation back and haven't come true.
20:46
This is like, everyone got their rates, everyone got their hourly,
20:49
no one cut anything. This is just an exercise in
20:52
actually proving that it's not bullshit. That if there's success,
20:55
you'll get some extra. A little success, a little extra.
20:58
A little more, a little more. But also, like you said,
21:00
because it's fair. It's fair.
21:02
Speaker 3: And in success, the people who made the movie should,
21:06
you know, should participate in that. And, And also with
21:09
this one, which was important to us, they delineate above
21:12
the line and below the line, right? Like above the
21:14
line being like us, the director and the producers.
21:18
Speaker 1: And below the line being kind of the more blue-collar
21:20
side of our industry. Like painters, grainsmen, camera people, everybody else,
21:25
the drivers.
21:26
Speaker 3: And so we just wanted– and believe like when we
21:29
started this company, we were like, look, we know who
21:33
makes our movie better.
21:34
Speaker 1: Right.
21:34
Speaker 3: It's not it's it's like they've this has kind of
21:37
been mispriced the whole time. Like the economics have been wrong.
21:40
Like when there's a when there's a big success, everybody
21:42
who had a hand on it.
21:44
Speaker 1: Because you see a great director that people rely on
21:46
or an actor that's considered bankable. They're all going, OK,
21:48
I need all my people. Yeah.
21:50
Speaker 3: Every great director I've worked with and I've worked with
21:52
a lot of them. They have their regular crew members.
21:55
Speaker 1: Right. They that ride or die with these people. Right.
21:57
Speaker 3: Because I mean, and you said it to me when
21:59
we were starting the company, you were like, Those department
22:02
heads who are each handling like cinematography, your camera department,
22:07
your grip department, your electric– those people are ultimately the
22:13
people who make the movie good. Like they make a
22:15
demonstrable difference in how good.
22:17
Speaker 1: Your movie is.
22:17
Speaker 2: And imagine once you get a good flow with a
22:19
great crew.
22:20
Speaker 1: Exactly.
22:20
Speaker 2: Like you got the band.
22:21
Speaker 1: Yeah.
22:22
Speaker 2: Like there's no need to bring in new band members.
22:23
Let's do this again.
22:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then like you have the situation where they
22:28
all are filmmakers too. Everybody knows what we're trying to do. So, like,
22:32
then what makes it, you know, you're trying to get
22:34
something special, something interesting, something fucking magical in some moment.
22:38
You have to, like, if people are tight or if
22:40
they're bent out of shape or, you know, it fucks
22:42
up the environment. People aren't relaxed. Actors can't do their
22:44
best work. And that does make a difference between something
22:47
that's good, average, great, whatever. And I think that if
22:51
you say, like, you know, it makes cognitive sense to people.
22:54
But if you look around, like, what's an example? Colin Anderson,
22:57
camera operator, right? He's not the cinematographer, whatever. But I
23:00
would tell you, I think he's the greatest camera operator
23:02
there is in Hollywood. And if you want evidence of that,
23:04
he shot Marty Supreme. He was a camera operator in
23:06
one battle after another. You look at his resume and
23:10
you're like, oh, that's interesting. These are all fucking great movies. Now,
23:13
is he personally responsible for all of it? No, because
23:15
it's a collaborative medium. There is no, like, you can
23:18
be a painter and paint by yourself. You can be
23:19
a novelist and do that, sing, write music. You can't
23:23
do this job alone. Like, there are a lot of
23:25
people that go into it. Even when I realized Matt
23:28
was the lead in the last movie I did air
23:30
that I directed, having somebody so fucking good in your
23:35
movie who also shows up, does his job, is friendly,
23:39
isn't fucking around or playing games or being weird, that
23:42
sets this tone. Everybody else kind of goes, okay, what's
23:46
Damon like? Oh, we're taking it seriously, but nobody's going
23:50
to be a dick. We're all going to do our job.
23:51
We're not going to take ourselves too seriously, but we're
23:54
going to take the job really seriously. And immediately, everybody
23:57
kind of snaps into that. That trickle-down effect goes across
24:01
the whole thing. And I think the best thing that
24:03
I know how to do as a director is just
24:05
create an environment where people feel like they show up.
24:09
People like me. They're rooting for me. I can fucking
24:11
embarrass myself and be bad. And it's not going to
24:13
be in the movie. And it's going to make me
24:15
feel self-conscious. I'm listening to my ideas. Yeah. And if
24:18
I have something to offer, they're going to go, oh,
24:20
that's a good idea. You know what I mean? Yeah.
24:23
that's kind of the trick in my view. And then
24:25
you're depending on the.
24:26
Speaker 2: Gifts of all these people, every single one of them, you.
24:28
Speaker 1: Know, guys was, you know, some woman's assistant prop master
24:32
is coming up with like the stuff that, you know,
24:34
Phil Knight found, you know, his waffle from the shoe.
24:37
They found it on eBay. Like that's an extra mile.
24:39
You know what I mean? Yeah. If you make people
24:41
feel like it matters and you give a shit and
24:43
that they're contributing and, Oh, cool. Let's do a closeup
24:45
of that. That's a really fucking cool. They'll die for you.
24:48
They'll go all the way. And it changes the whole.
24:51
And if, You bonus them. Yeah. It doesn't hurt either.
24:55
It's not just all– it's– It's not just rah-rah.
24:57
Speaker 3: There's an actual like codified bonus structure to say like
25:02
we– This is the way.
25:03
Speaker 1: Of recognizing that shit, right? It's like in your paycheck too.
25:05
It's not just bullshit. That's very real.
25:06
Speaker 2: And you guys developed this? Is this– so this is
25:08
something that you– like kudos to you guys for addressing
25:10
this first of all and recognizing it and having that
25:13
attitude because it's so important and so easy to– for
25:16
big movie stars to just think about themselves and their
25:18
own career.
25:19
Speaker 1: We're communists, Joe. We're from Cambridge. Keep the car running. No, no.
25:27
Speaker 3: But, but, but each, each deal has had this kind of,
25:31
each deal that we've done so far has been different
25:33
because we've made deals with, you know, different studios and
25:36
platforms and stuff like that.
25:37
Speaker 1: And just involved us basically retroactively going, Hey, we came
25:41
in under, we did a great job as extra money.
25:44
here you go. This is the first time that we're
25:46
able to, to actually create like a schedule where it's like, because,
25:50
and by the way, we wouldn't have been able to
25:51
do that without Netflix going, okay, cool. You think you
25:54
can make this work? Is this, we'll give you a shot.
25:56
Otherwise we wouldn't have been able to do it. So
25:58
we had to say, look, we're not asking you to
25:59
take a cut, but you know, if, if we, we can,
26:01
and we can tell you if the movie is watched
26:03
as many hours in the first 90 days as like
26:06
this movie, a, that you all know what it is,
26:09
then that's, you know, 20% of your salary, let's say, right?
26:12
I mean, you just take a hit. So it's like, yeah,
26:14
you make more money, your bonus is more. It's all
26:16
just pegged to where you're at just because that was
26:18
the most fair idea we'd come up with. So they
26:20
gave us like five different levels, right?
26:22
Speaker 3: Like the first couple we, hopefully we can hit and
26:25
maybe the third, maybe we get, and then it got
26:27
to like the fifth level.
26:27
Speaker 1: It's kind of like single, double, triple, home run. Home run,
26:30
fucking grand slam.
26:31
Speaker 3: The fifth one was 110% of all Netflix viewers or
26:35
something like that. So it's everybody who has a Netflix
26:37
account watches it and then like 10% of them watch
26:39
it again.
26:40
Speaker 1: And we were like– No, it's like K-pop Demon. But
26:41
that's what happened.
26:43
Speaker 3: We were laughing and then K-pop Demon Hunters came along
26:45
and actually did that.
26:46
Speaker 1: That's the first movie that's ever– Jesus. Yeah.
26:49
Speaker 2: Well, I think a lot of autistic kids watch that
26:51
over and over and over and over again.
26:53
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it. I mean somebody is watching it
26:55
over and over again.
26:56
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Dude, people love it.
26:59
Speaker 1: I mean it's– And the value of it is because
27:02
before this, one of the big things and everybody's fighting
27:04
over in the strike is like, well, share your– there
27:07
used to be residuals, right? And residuals– and it was
27:09
only for SAG and a few other things. But it
27:11
was like– and you knew if you had a line
27:12
in the movie and there was a certain number like
27:15
at the box office, well, you're going to get another $ 2, 000.
27:17
And that was a big deal. You get that check
27:20
in the mail. I'm like, OK, I can pay the
27:21
rent for another month. I can do that shit. But
27:23
then there was this like sort of ill– what constitutes success?
27:27
Because a streamer doesn't actually sell another ticket if you
27:30
watch that movie, right? It's hard to tell. Well, why
27:32
did you sign up for this service, right? So for
27:35
a while everyone was looking at– the first thing that
27:37
you looked at when you subscribed to somebody, OK, you're
27:40
going to go buy Hulu? What did you watch first?
27:42
The bear. Well, the bear must be creating value for us.
27:45
But you can't assign a strict numerical value to it
27:48
because it's like a box office where you can go, well,
27:52
Oppenheimer is a billion dollars or whatever and that's another
27:55
billion dollars on our balance sheet because streamers are doing
27:59
a subscription model. Whether it's like a gym membership where
28:03
in the fucking first of the year you're like, I'm
28:05
going to work out again. I'm going to buy that
28:06
annual membership and you go twice or you go to
28:09
the gym every single day. You're paying the same amount.
28:11
Speaker 2: Also the weird thing is with streaming, when you're opening
28:14
up Netflix, it's not like you're going to the movie
28:16
theater and there's seven movies playing. You're opening up Netflix
28:19
and you have an unlimited option list. It's insane how
28:24
much content. You could waste the rest of your life
28:27
sitting in front of Netflix and then die and have
28:30
millions of hours more to listen to or watch.
28:33
Speaker 1: You're right. Like when we started researching that and built
28:36
our own data to pull people and examine all this stuff,
28:40
it's actually all the library stuff that people are watching
28:43
all the time. If you said like the new stuff
28:45
is theoretically what keeps people with the subscription or whatever.
28:48
But in terms of like volume of time, I think
28:51
it doesn't come from them. But it looks a lot
28:54
like we're going to watch like Orange is the New
28:57
Black and the episode of Suits and the old Seinfeld
28:59
and Friends and Cupcake Wars. That's because Americans watch six
29:05
hours of TV a day, right?
29:07
Speaker 2: That's crazy.
29:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
29:09
Speaker 2: And then the other six hours they're on their phone.
29:11
How does anything get done? How does anything get done?
29:14
When you started to make this film, like what, what
29:16
is the process? Like, how did you guys agree on it?
29:18
Like what did you guys have it written first?
29:22
Speaker 1: What is Joe?
29:23
Speaker 2: So before you knew you were going to Netflix with it.
29:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
29:27
Speaker 3: He came to us with the script and we've known
29:28
Joe for a really, he did a movie. His first
29:30
movie was called narc. I don't know if you ever
29:32
saw it.
29:32
Speaker 1: It's terrific. It's a great movie, yeah.
29:33
Speaker 3: So we met him way back this, 25 years ago
29:36
or something like that. So we met him back then.
29:39
And Ben did a movie of his in.
29:42
Speaker 1: 2004, I think.
29:43
Speaker 3: So we've known Joe for a really long time and
29:45
kind of been in touch with him over the years.
29:47
And he just sent this to us and said– we
29:49
read it and we thought it was great and bought
29:53
it for the company. And then we started talking to
29:56
Joe about how he saw it. How he wanted to
29:58
do it and he suggested that we actually do the
30:01
movie and we were like, yeah, why don't.
30:04
Speaker 1: We do it? It seems– Basically because we liked it.
30:07
We liked it. We're not trying to just do our movies.
30:10
We want to be doing movies with all the people
30:13
that we like and respect and then the way we
30:16
sort of set it up is such that to try
30:18
to get like– historically the way it's worked is like the,
30:22
you know, a studio will own a, a, an IP
30:25
or a script or whatever. And then you cut and
30:27
they'll say, okay, we want you to do it. Okay. Well,
30:29
how much, well, how much did you get for the
30:30
last one? Right. And you go, and what's the budget.
30:32
And then that's how they assign a value to it. Right.
30:35
But like my belief was, well, especially when these streams
30:38
are coming into the market and, and chasing stuff is like,
30:41
this movie may, may be worth more. It may be
30:43
worth less. And that like, we're all just subject to that.
30:46
So we'll try to get, the best price for it,
30:48
and we'll all share it pro rata. And essentially that
30:52
was the same process. We've done eight, I guess, movies
30:54
or so now, and we took it out and people
30:58
wanted it. And then one of the things that was
30:59
really appealing about Netflix was that they were open to
31:02
this idea that we've been trying to institutionalize. It was like, okay, great.
31:07
That's really meaningful because ideally it becomes a template that
31:10
other people go, hey, we want to do that thing.
31:12
And then we go, oh, here's the paperwork. Yeah, that's
31:14
the thing.
31:14
Speaker 3: Like a lot of people say that they would want
31:16
to do it. But now the template exists. So it's
31:20
like plug and play.
31:21
Speaker 1: So if you're not full of shit and you really
31:24
do mean that, then guess what? Just take this and
31:26
don't do it. And it also is going to let you,
31:28
you know, I hope, like manage the risk. In other words,
31:31
the argument you always have is like, well, shit, we've
31:32
got to invest all this money in the movie. So
31:34
you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable. That's too
31:38
edgy or can't be R-rated because it costs this much.
31:42
Speaker 2: I get it, right?
31:42
Speaker 1: You're going to put all your money into it. You
31:44
don't want money to fucking disappear. You want to make money. Okay.
31:47
So when we wrote the first movie, Good Will Hunting,
31:50
it was like we knew that had to be a
31:51
cheap movie. People talking in rooms to each other because
31:54
no one's going to put a bunch of money into
31:55
a movie. Into a movie with us. Two assholes that
31:57
no one heard of. So it was like, okay, what
31:59
can we do that's interesting and try to keep it
32:02
as inexpensive as possible so that we can make the
32:04
argument that someone should make the movie? That same logic
32:07
carries through every time you're asking somebody to invest in something.
32:10
So what I'd like to have happen is to say, okay,
32:14
now that we know there's a reliable platform system where
32:17
we understand that like in success we'll actually benefit, we
32:20
can lower, you know, the price up front for you
32:24
so that you can have a low fucking barrier to
32:25
entry so that you can take the risk so that
32:27
we can do something really interesting. That's, that's an original idea.
32:30
That's a, you know, that's an ABN or a sinners
32:32
or if I'm already Supreme or whatever it is. And,
32:35
and then if it's successful, we're not still sitting here
32:38
like assholes where, you know, you guys walk off with
32:40
all the money, but, and you can have that happen
32:42
in an ongoing way so that you can make more
32:44
interesting stuff.
32:46
Speaker 2: A lot of the stuff that was going on with
32:48
Strikes was centered around AI and what AI is going
32:52
to do to the business. Like where do you feel
32:55
is going to be like the biggest problem with AI?
32:58
Is it going to be with people's likenesses? Because there's
33:00
a lot of that where they want to use extras
33:03
and own their digital rights forever, essentially be able to
33:06
recreate them in any kind of film. But then there's
33:08
also– you're going to have films that are written– by
33:12
artificial intelligence. You're going to have scenes that don't involve people.
33:17
And it gets weird, right?
33:19
Speaker 1: It gets really weird, but there's actually an area of
33:22
expertise for him. Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this. Like,
33:24
my belief is, it's sort of like, what's going to
33:26
happen with electricity? Well, a lot of shit's going to
33:28
happen with electricity. Some of it's going to be good,
33:30
some of it's going to change stuff, some of it's
33:32
going to be, like, you know, This is going to
33:34
be shit that kills a bunch of people. Like it's
33:37
opening a door that you can't say– well, talk about
33:41
it in kind of a blanket way. But I think
33:43
with– what I see is that, for example, if you
33:45
try to get ChachiBT or Claude or Gemini to write
33:49
you something, it's really shitty. And it's shitty because by
33:53
its nature it goes to the mean, to the average.
33:56
And it's not reliable and it's– I mean I just
34:00
can't even stand to see what he writes. Now, it's
34:02
a useful tool if you're a writer and you're going,
34:05
what's the thing? I'm trying to set something up where
34:07
somebody sends someone a letter but it's delayed two days
34:10
and gets– and it can give you some examples of that.
34:12
I actually don't think it's very likely that it can–
34:15
it's going to be able to write anything meaningful or–
34:18
and in particular that it's going to be making movies
34:21
like from whole cloth like Tilly Norwood. Like that's bullshit.
34:23
I don't think that's going to happen. I think it
34:26
actually turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly
34:29
the same way they sort of presented it. And really
34:32
what it is is going to be a tool, just
34:34
like sort of visual effects. And yeah, it needs to
34:37
have language around it. You need to protect your name
34:38
and likeness. You can do that. You can watermark it.
34:41
Those laws already exist. I can't sell your fucking picture
34:44
for money. I can't. You can sue me, period. I
34:47
might have the ability to draw you, to make you
34:49
in a very realistic way, but that's already against the law.
34:54
And the unions are going to, the guilds are going
34:56
to manage this where it's like, okay, look, if this
34:59
is a tool that actually helps us, for example, we
35:01
don't have to go to the North Pole, right? We
35:03
can shoot the scene here in our parkas and whatever
35:06
it is, but then make it appear very realistically as
35:10
if we're in the North Pole. It'll save us a
35:11
lot of money, a lot of time. We're going to
35:13
focus on the performances and not be freezing our ass
35:15
off out there and running back inside. That's useful. Just
35:19
like Spencer Tracy and Catherine Hepburn used to be like
35:22
driving their car and there's a wind blowing a painting
35:24
behind them. It looked goofy. Now, you know, in computer generated,
35:28
people use a lot of computer generated stuff and some
35:30
of it is going to replace just that. Like instead
35:32
of a 500 guys in Singapore, you know, making $ 2
35:35
an hour to, to render all the graphics for a
35:39
superhero movie, there's going to be able to do that
35:41
a lot easier. There's already laws around and guild guidelines
35:44
around like how many union extras you have to use.
35:47
But also we've been, Tiling extras, like there weren't a
35:50
million orcs in Middle Earth. You know what I mean?
35:52
There weren't Invictus. There weren't all those people in the stadium.
35:55
Like that's something we've been doing. It kind of feels
35:58
to me like the thing we were talking about earlier
36:00
where there's a lot more fear because we have the
36:02
sense that's existential dread. It's going to wipe everything out.
36:06
But that actually runs counter in my view to what
36:09
history seems to show, which is A, adoption is slow.
36:12
It's incremental. It's incremental. I think a lot of that
36:15
rhetoric comes from people who are trying to justify valuations
36:19
around companies where they go, we're going to change everything.
36:22
In two years, there's going to be no more work. Well,
36:24
the reason they're saying that is because they need to
36:26
ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the capex
36:30
spend they're going to make on these data centers with
36:32
the argument that like, oh, you know, as soon as
36:35
we do the next model, it's going to scale up
36:37
and be three times as good. Except that actually, Chad,
36:39
you'd be five. about 25% better than chat GPT-4 and
36:44
costs about four times as much in the way of
36:47
electricity and data. So those, and they say that it's
36:49
like plateauing the early AI, the line went up very
36:54
steeply and it's now sort of leveling off. I think
36:56
it's because, and yes, it'll get better, but it's going
36:59
to be really expensive to get better. And a lot
37:02
of people were like, fuck this. We want chat GPT-4
37:04
because it turned out like the vast majority of people
37:07
who use AI are using it to like, as like
37:10
companion bots to chat with at night and so there's
37:13
no work there's no productivity there's no value to it
37:16
i would argue there's also not a lot of social
37:18
value to getting people to like focus on an ai
37:22
friend who's you know telling you that you're great and
37:25
listening to everything you say and being sycophantic that's sort
37:28
of a side issue i think for this particular purpose
37:31
like the way i see the technology and what it's
37:34
good at and what it's not it's going to be
37:35
good at filling in all the places that are expensive
37:38
and burdensome and they make it harder to do it.
37:40
And it's always going to rely fundamentally on the human
37:43
artistic aspects of it.
37:45
Speaker 2: Well, I think the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more
37:49
people are going to appreciate real things that are made
37:51
by real people. You know, like you're, you still appreciate
37:54
a handmade table, you know, you're, you're going to appreciate like,
37:58
did you see, um, uh, the beast in me, Claire Danes?
38:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I didn't.
38:02
Speaker 2: Great.
38:02
Speaker 1: Yeah. I heard it was great.
38:03
Speaker 2: That lady.
38:04
Speaker 1: Woo. That's terrific.
38:06
Speaker 2: When she's in a scene, you're just like, Jesus Christ.
38:09
Speaker 1: Great, great actress.
38:10
Speaker 2: Like her fucking lips are quivering. Like you believe everything
38:13
that she's saying.
38:14
Speaker 1: But you're right. People want that.
38:15
Speaker 2: You can't fake that.
38:17
Speaker 3: I'll say like I did this interview with Dwayne Johnson
38:22
because when people are in these awards things, they sometimes
38:25
have other actors interview them. And I did this interview
38:28
with Dwayne and I asked him, there's this scene in
38:31
The Smashing Machine.
38:33
Speaker 1: Where he's overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes to
38:35
see him in the hospital.
38:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
38:38
Speaker 1: And it really walloped me, this scene. I thought it
38:41
was so great.
38:42
Speaker 3: And I asked him and I was just like, can
38:44
you just tell me about this scene? Like, did Benny
38:46
Safdie direct it? Did Benny write that? Did you work
38:49
on that scene with him? He goes, no, we actually
38:52
worked on it together. And I go, well, how did
38:53
that scene come to be? And Dwayne goes, well, my
38:56
father was an alcoholic. And I don't remember if he
38:58
said substance abuser or alcoholic, but whatever.
39:01
Speaker 1: I didn't know the man. I don't want to impugn him, but,
39:02
but he had, he had a substance issue, whatever it was.
39:05
Speaker 3: He goes, and, and when he would talk to me, uh,
39:09
you know, that's how he would defend himself.
39:12
Speaker 1: He was almost a bargaining thing.
39:13
Speaker 3: Cause there's this thing when this guy comes to him,
39:15
he's overdosed and Dwayne's amazing in the scene.
39:18
Speaker 1: He's, he's going like, he's going like, yeah, isn't it crazy?
39:21
And then I woke up and I mean, I could
39:22
hear him, but I couldn't really hear him.
39:23
Speaker 3: And you see him and he's kind of tap dancing
39:25
and his friend finally kind of holds his feet to
39:27
the fire. And at that moment, Dwayne literally starts to
39:33
burst into tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up
39:36
over his head. And it's like, and it's, and it's,
39:40
I mean, it just, it was, I'm not doing it justice.
39:43
If you haven't, I mean, I know you've seen it, but, um,
39:48
He said, yeah. So he explains that about his father.
39:51
And then he goes, and when my mom was diagnosed
39:54
with stage three lung cancer, I was with her when
39:56
the oncologist came in and she was lying in the
39:58
hospital bed. And when he gave her the news, she
40:01
pulled the sheet up over her head.
40:04
Speaker 1: And I looked at her and she just looked like
40:06
a little kid. And I was like, all right.
40:11
Speaker 3: So that is two traumatic events, right? from this guy's life, right?
40:17
From his life experience. And the actor in him, right?
40:22
Sees this scene, goes into his memory, pulls these two
40:27
things out, understands that they're appropriate for this scene and
40:30
he can marry them together in the scene. And then
40:33
he goes and performs it that way. And a dude
40:37
walking in off the road, goes to the movies, sees this,
40:42
understands somehow that it's, fucking real.
40:46
Speaker 1: I didn't know why. That's why I wanted to ask him,
40:48
how did that scene come to be?
40:49
Speaker 3: I genuinely didn't know. And made me tear up, you know. Like,
40:57
that is, there's no fucking AI that can do that.
41:00
Speaker 1: No. It's a whole lot more than photorealistic images. Yeah.
41:05
Speaker 3: You could have an AI understand Dwayne's face and move
41:09
his face into different.
41:10
Speaker 1: No fucking thing could ever do that.
41:12
Speaker 2: The complications of real life experiences relayed.
41:15
Speaker 3: That is a completely human, that is an artist, that's
41:18
a piece of art, right?
41:18
Speaker 1: Yes. That comes out of a lived human experience.
41:21
Speaker 2: That movie gave me so much anxiety. There's moments where
41:24
Emily Blunt is arguing with Emily.
41:25
Speaker 1: She's so fucking good in that movie. She's so good.
41:27
Speaker 3: I really said, I was like, I think that's the
41:30
best she's ever been. I love, you know, we live
41:31
in the same building in New York. She's like a
41:33
very dear friend of mine. And I was like, I
41:36
really think that's the best she's ever been. And then
41:38
I said, and then I, Blurted that out to Chris
41:39
Nolan and he kind of stopped and looked at me
41:42
like– he didn't say it but he was kind of like,
41:44
she's pretty fucking good in my movie too.
41:47
Speaker 2: Well, she's great period.
41:48
Speaker 1: She's great period.
41:49
Speaker 2: She's great period but there's something about that– well, I
41:52
knew Mark. I knew Mark from– I met Mark in
41:55
97 when he was fighting in the UFC. So I
41:58
knew the whole journey of him and I was so
42:00
happy for Dwayne. Because it was a film where instead
42:04
of being this fucking superhero blockbuster Hulk of a man,
42:08
he gets to be that but be a great actor. And,
42:13
you know, you can't really get a person to look
42:17
like that, to express emotions and express. And he was
42:23
Mark Kerr.
42:24
Speaker 1: I know.
42:24
Speaker 2: If you know Mark, I mean, it was fucking great.
42:27
Speaker 1: I completely forgot it was him.
42:29
Speaker 3: And somebody who had seen it before told me that
42:31
was going to happen.
42:32
Speaker 1: And I was like, all right, we'll see.
42:33
Speaker 3: And it was like from the second it started.
42:36
Speaker 2: It didn't get the credit it deserved in terms of
42:39
like the amount of people that went to see it.
42:40
But I think overall in time. People will appreciate it.
42:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what people will go back to and look
42:44
at and talk about.
42:45
Speaker 2: Because it's a movie about MMA. So a lot of
42:48
people are like, I don't want to see a movie
42:50
about a bunch of fucking meatheads. But it's not. It's
42:52
just a movie that happens to be around MMA. But
42:55
it's a great movie. The scenes are fucking fantastic. The
43:01
acting is so good. And even the fight scenes. They're
43:06
so realistic, man. It's really like they– I saw all
43:09
those fights. They've recreated those fights about as good as
43:13
you can get. And just his crazy struggle. And you
43:17
know the story behind the documentary, The Smashing Machine?
43:20
Speaker 1: No.
43:20
Speaker 2: So The Smashing Machine was made when Mark was at
43:23
the height of his powers and pride. And he was
43:25
the most terrifying guy in the world. He was 265
43:29
pounds of solid muscle just blowing through people. Didn't even
43:32
look like a human being. Everyone was terrified of him.
43:35
No one knew he was a drug addict. No one knew.
43:37
And he spiraled out as they were filming and he
43:41
let them film him, let them film him shooting up,
43:44
let them film him like bringing this giant bag of
43:47
pills with them and all this shit everywhere and just
43:50
completely falling apart while they were supposed to be capturing
43:54
this hero movie of the greatest fighter in the world.
43:57
He's falling apart like live in front of the documentary.
44:01
It was fucking amazing documentary.
44:03
Speaker 1: I got to see it.
44:04
Speaker 2: It's really good. But I was so happy that they
44:07
put it in a film. And I was so happy
44:09
that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to show what he's
44:12
really capable of because he's so limited by a lot
44:15
of just the parameters of the roles that he was in.
44:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, and by like galactic success too, right?
44:22
Speaker 1: I mean it's– he had to and will continue to
44:23
have to push– For that, right? Because it's what he wants. Yeah.
44:33
And not because what they're going to continue to want
44:36
him to do is, you know, the thing that mints
44:40
them money. Yeah. But I suspect that his experience and
44:44
feeling about this movie.
44:46
Speaker 3: From the conversations I've had with him, yeah, this has
44:50
changed him.
44:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
44:51
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's this thing that these superhero guys
44:55
have to do where it's like, something has to change
44:58
because otherwise you're going to be boxed. And with a
45:02
guy that looks like that, it's so easy to put
45:04
him in that box. And so you see him now,
45:07
he's thinner, he's lost a lot of weight. Dave Bautista
45:09
went through a very similar thing too, right? He wanted
45:12
to have more range, wanted to have more opportunities to
45:15
do exciting and different challenging things.
45:17
Speaker 3: Well, I think also coming from where he came from, right?
45:20
It's like you talk about going from TV to movies
45:23
in the old days. Try coming from wrestling to like,
45:26
The biggest movie star in the world, right? It's very–
45:29
it's like it's incredible that he did that and now
45:33
he's in this place where he's got this leverage because
45:36
he's so beloved and that he can kind of tailor
45:40
what he wants from here on out.
45:42
Speaker 1: It's hard to bring the audience with you. Right. No, no, no.
45:44
I know you like this thing but let me show
45:47
you something else. It's sort of like– You go to
45:49
the concert. The band wants to play the new songs.
45:51
Speaker 2: Play the fucking hits.
45:54
Speaker 1: You know. He's a little gilded gaze. All right, fuck it. Satisfaction. Yeah. No,
46:00
I love the song, too. You know my acoustic thing
46:04
that I did?
46:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went to see the Stones when they were
46:07
here in town, and there was a few songs they
46:09
played that were, like, new songs.
46:10
Speaker 1: Oh, really?
46:11
Speaker 2: And you see the audience is like, okay, okay. Go
46:13
get a beer. Get the other one. Yeah, that's... I mean, but,
46:18
you know, every artist, I guess, has to make that choice.
46:20
And he's made it. And it was an amazing vehicle, too,
46:24
because he still kept that superhuman, hulkish frame.
46:28
Speaker 1: Yeah.
46:28
Speaker 2: And then, but also showed, like, God, there's, like, amazing
46:31
depth there.
46:32
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing that's, I think,
46:35
especially because it's, A, it's collaborative. It happens to other people.
46:39
That's what movies do that other shit doesn't do, which
46:42
is just create. like you feel for people. It's empathy.
46:45
It's all made up, right? That's not him. It's all
46:47
an illusion. It's all bullshit. But if you do it
46:50
really well, it's like, you know, somebody that seems to
46:53
really be feeling something like all of a sudden, I
46:55
think what it does, it touches like these things in ourselves.
46:58
You know, it has that same effect that Dwayne went
47:00
through of articulated to you about like these moments that
47:04
were kind of burned into his memory. Then really the
47:08
best movies are kind of almost blank screens that we
47:11
project our own fucking like, oh yeah, I, my father
47:15
died or I went through this with my kid or
47:17
I'm fucking, I feel fucking alone and, and, and, and miserable.
47:21
And here's this like hopeful moment that someone has to go,
47:24
maybe I can, maybe I can do something, you know,
47:26
they inspire you, they touch you, they move you. And
47:28
like the thing to go for the other thing is,
47:31
you know, it's a, is to, to tell the lighter story,
47:34
to go through the more typical sort of tropes of
47:36
it all.
47:36
Speaker 3: And it's a, Either way, you're in somebody else's perspective
47:39
for a few hours and hopefully it breeds compassion.
47:42
Speaker 2: Well, when it's done right, there's a magic to it
47:45
where you forget that it's happening and you're there. And
47:48
the most amazing trick is when it's done by famous people.
47:51
I was talking to Ethan Hawke about this. There's a
47:53
scene with him and Kevin Bacon. In that movie with
47:56
Julia Roberts about the end of the world. I forget
47:58
the name of it.
47:59
Speaker 1: Tomorrow.
48:01
Speaker 2: Tomorrow something. People will find it. But it's a great
48:04
fucking movie. But there's this scene where he's trying to
48:07
get– he's talking to Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon's got a
48:10
gun to him. And it's so– I know that's Kevin Bacon.
48:14
I know that's Ethan Hawke. It doesn't matter. Like you're
48:17
fucking locked in. You're locked in. You're like, oh, shit.
48:21
Like that's the magic. And he was like, but I'm
48:25
locked in too. Like that's– it's like a hypnosis. It's
48:28
like everybody is in the scene in a very bizarre way.
48:34
Like you have the lines, but you're living it. And
48:38
that's either done or it's not done. And when it's
48:40
not done, you could tell someone's kind of just performative.
48:44
Speaker 1: You feel it when you're watching. Yes. If it does
48:46
that thing and it pulls you in, then it's happening.
48:49
Speaker 2: That's the magic of film.
48:50
Speaker 1: And sometimes you trick people, I guess. But for the
48:52
most part. For the most part, you don't. You're feeling
48:55
it and it's really happening. Yeah. It's much more like.
48:58
Speaker 3: Other human beings recognize human beings experiencing real shit.
49:02
Speaker 1: Yes. They really do. It's like these mirror neurons. Like,
49:05
I know what. sorrow looks like without having the fucking,
49:09
I can't break it down for you. Or I even,
49:10
you know, you, we all know kind of what, like, Oh,
49:12
he's a little anxious right now. Or did I maybe
49:15
offend him or, you know, all these little things. And
49:18
when some, like in the rare moments, when these big
49:21
feelings or the things happen, you feel it too, you know.
49:26
And usually, like an example is, this is an old
49:28
saying about, like, you know, actors try to cry, people
49:31
try not to cry. Like, because when you're really experiencing
49:34
that shit, you don't want people to see it. You
49:35
want to hide it. You want to. No, I'm OK.
49:37
I'm fine. You know, it's like you want to pull
49:38
the sheet up. Yeah.
49:41
Speaker 3: But the other thing that's really interesting from from our
49:43
side of doing it, because he and I have talked
49:45
about this a lot is and I've always said publicly,
49:48
like great actors are good enough for both of you.
49:51
Like when you're in a scene with a great actor,
49:55
that thing that Ethan's talking about, that hypnosis or whatever
49:57
you want, that energy, that that place where you go.
50:00
Speaker 1: Right? They're bringing you right with it.
50:02
Speaker 3: It's like a fucking tractor beam. They will suck you
50:04
right in with them. And like, as quickly as you
50:07
look into their eyes and you're like, you're like just there.
50:10
And it's like, and it's not like, it's like riding
50:12
the easiest wave you've ever ridden in your life. You know,
50:16
it can be the hardest thing in the world and
50:18
it can be the easiest thing in the world. When
50:20
you're with a great actor, it just, it's just, if
50:22
the scenes.
50:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. This is a real paradox. It's like all this
50:25
stuff that I'm the most proud of. The weird thing
50:27
about us has felt very easy at the time. And
50:30
the shit where you're banging your head against the wall
50:31
trying to get blood from a stone and killing yourself
50:33
and the whole thing and it just– it ends up
50:35
fucking feeling empty. And the thing about the stuff that
50:37
I'm proud of is my insecurity is like it should
50:40
be harder than this, right? Are we– are we like–
50:42
we work hard enough? Are we– and learn to kind
50:45
of just trust that. It feels good. Let's just keep going.
50:48
Speaker 2: Well, there's some scenes in this movie without giving too
50:50
much away where there's conflict between you two guys that
50:52
seems so real. And that's even harder to recreate because
50:55
you guys are good friends. And you're making the movie
50:59
together and you've got this scene where you're acting in
51:01
this and with the conflict with the two of you guys,
51:04
the movie, but it's very fucking real.
51:06
Speaker 1: The reason that it was real is that I liked
51:08
that scene.
51:08
Speaker 3: The reason it's, it works I think is because he's
51:12
coming at me and he's, he really needs to know
51:16
something and I'm completely blanking him.
51:20
Speaker 1: Like I'm just, he's going, you got to tell me
51:22
what's going on, man. He's like, it's awesome. Like what,
51:24
what is going, what is the thing? And I, and
51:26
I'm just, like literally kind of blanking him in this.
51:30
Speaker 3: Bizarre way, which, which like was really frustrating him in
51:34
real life because he, he was that feeling of like,
51:38
it's fucking tell me, dude, it's you. And be like,
51:40
and he finally goes, he screams out. I don't trust
51:43
you right now.
51:44
Speaker 2: That's a fucking problem.
51:45
Speaker 1: Right. Which is like what you would say to an
51:47
old friend. Like, what are you doing, man? Like what, what,
51:51
what are you doing?
51:52
Speaker 3: Like, tell me the fucking the betrayal is that lie
51:55
to me or tell me the truth don't fuck with
51:57
me and like step outside our whole relationship and all
52:00
of a sudden just act like give me this weird
52:02
look of just like I don't know you know like
52:07
and so we were doing the scene it was really
52:10
fucking pissing him off I could see him like getting
52:13
like the one line that wasn't written that I saw
52:14
that I didn't remember doing was I would have never
52:16
fucked you like this I would have never fucked you
52:18
like this yeah which I didn't even remember saying I
52:20
like that keep that thing I wouldn't have.
52:22
Speaker 1: Fucked you And I thought, I was like, what is he?
52:26
And I watched the playback. It was one of those
52:28
rare moments, again, where it was that thing of you
52:31
doing all the work by not doing anything, which I
52:34
didn't expect that to be the choice that you made.
52:37
And it just was confusing and felt like just leaving
52:40
you out in the fucking cold. I think the only
52:43
thing I could rely on is like... You know, I
52:45
wouldn't do this to you.
52:47
Speaker 2: In those moments where you're ad-libbing a line, where a
52:51
line comes, is it just that feels like that's what
52:54
you say?
52:54
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's just kind of like you couldn't stop from
52:57
saying it. Right. But you have to be working with
52:59
somebody that makes that okay. You know what I mean?
53:02
Because the part of your brain that will, like, govern
53:05
you or tell you something's not okay, whatever, will step
53:08
in if it's sort of like, Listen, I expect you
53:11
to fucking do this box. And there's directors and writers
53:14
who really do really care about every word precisely, and
53:18
that's how they do it, and that's fine. That could
53:20
be great too. For me, I find it becomes more interesting,
53:24
and sometimes better stuff happens if you actually feel like
53:27
you don't have to say any of the lines. I
53:29
don't have to say any of the lines in the scene,
53:31
then I'll tend to say the ones that feel right.
53:34
But it's that fake... thing that never happens in life,
53:38
which is I'm never sitting here talking to you and think,
53:41
what's my next line? What am I supposed to say
53:43
and how should I say that?
53:44
Speaker 3: And it's not about the lines ever. It's not about
53:46
the words. It's about what's the scene about? What's happening
53:49
in the scene?
53:49
Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons why Curb Your Enthusiasm is
53:51
so great. Because Larry David just gives you a place
53:55
to get to.
53:55
Speaker 1: Yeah. He gives them kind of a loose agenda of
53:58
what's going to happen.
53:59
Speaker 2: And then films a bunch of stuff and everybody figures
54:02
it out.
54:03
Speaker 1: And a lot of times that shows about The awkward
54:05
shit when people are missing each other and not sure
54:08
of themselves and a little embarrassed.
54:10
Speaker 2: Fucking genius show.
54:11
Speaker 1: It really is.
54:12
Speaker 2: And people talk like we're talking. Like you occasionally talk
54:16
over each other. There's a stumble. There's no one– like what?
54:19
What the fuck are you talking– there's weirdness.
54:22
Speaker 3: To– Because what's also happening is that forces you to
54:24
really listen, right? And that is the hardest thing to
54:29
kind of learn for young actors I think is it's
54:32
really all about listening. And like I did a bunch
54:35
of movies with Paul Greengrass and that's how he works
54:37
where he– where you.
54:39
Speaker 1: Just know the agenda going in.
54:41
Speaker 3: You know some basic things that– you know what your
54:43
guy needs going in. Like I was playing a chief
54:46
warrant officer and I had to go through a door
54:48
and there was a guy and I needed to interrogate him.
54:51
And this is what I needed to know from him.
54:53
I needed to secure the house with my guys and
54:55
I needed to get to this guy. We needed to
54:57
make sure everybody here was secure. So– and it just–
55:00
and he put me with a bunch of real– combat
55:03
veterans and we fucking went in and you know they're
55:07
the extras.
55:07
Speaker 1: Which is another thing that does your job for you
55:09
it's just being around the real people Joe putting the
55:12
cops from Miami you know on these parts and it
55:15
just like by osmosis you feel more legitimate the thing
55:19
feels more authentic to the audience you don't know why
55:21
because you don't know what the how what the fucking
55:23
culture is of the tactical narcotics team in Miami but
55:26
when you see the real guys you kind of oh
55:28
you're like yeah that seems right.
55:30
Speaker 2: Miami is a perfect place to have it too.
55:32
Speaker 3: Yeah Well, it's also specific to this because it's based
55:35
on this real tactical narcotics team in Miami. And the
55:41
guy who ran that, this guy, Chris Cassiano, is Joe's friend,
55:44
and he's the guy that my character's based on. So
55:48
Chris was, Chris, we went, you know, we rode along
55:50
with Chris down there. We went with that team and
55:52
watched them operate and then hung out with them. And
55:54
then they came up and they were, you know, all
55:56
in the movie. And Chris was around as a technical
55:58
advisor the whole time. So any question, like, Little details.
56:02
All right, how do I go through this door?
56:04
Speaker 1: What do I do? What do you do here? What's
56:06
the protocol here?
56:07
Speaker 3: All of that stuff was kind of overseen by him
56:10
so that it was how they really do it.
56:13
Speaker 2: That whole fucking town is so– did you ever see
56:15
Cocaine Cowboys?
56:16
Speaker 1: Yes. Shit.
56:19
Speaker 2: The entire fucking graduating class of the police academy one
56:22
year either wound up murdered or in jail.
56:26
Speaker 1: That's what happens. All of a sudden you push so
56:28
much fucking money. Into something. Oh, yeah. And it's like–
56:32
before they even kind of figured out like– and there
56:35
wasn't even a lot of stigma. It was like, ah, cocaine, whatever.
56:38
It's kind of rich guy's fun drug. But there's some
56:42
statistic about like the amount of money in the banks
56:45
in Miami was like the same as the rest of
56:47
the country.
56:48
Speaker 2: More banks per capita in Miami than anywhere else in
56:52
the country.
56:52
Speaker 3: Right.
56:53
Speaker 2: Because they were just laundering money.
56:54
Speaker 1: Right.
56:55
Speaker 2: And they got away with it. They literally got away
56:57
with it.
56:57
Speaker 1: Have you ever flown over Bimini? No.
57:00
Speaker 3: So if you ever fly over Bimini, there are all
57:03
these like Cessnas underwater, all these planes like around the
57:09
island because what they used to do– Bimini.
57:10
Speaker 1: Is like the closest– it's 50 miles off the coast
57:13
of Florida.
57:14
Speaker 3: They would come in with a plane full of drugs
57:17
and just crash the plane into the water.
57:20
Speaker 1: They would land it. On purpose? On purpose. On purpose.
57:22
Because there's no runway on Bimini. It's like, fuck it,
57:25
we're going to dump the plane.
57:26
Speaker 3: They would have 10 cigarette boats, like a flotilla of
57:29
boats waiting. They would crash the plane. They'd offload the
57:33
drugs as the plane was sinking, right? And then they'd
57:37
put it, the Coast Guard figures that they're always coming
57:41
for them.
57:41
Speaker 1: That's why they have 10 boats.
57:43
Speaker 3: They throw the drugs into one of the boats, and
57:46
they got a 1 out of 10 chance of making it.
57:48
Speaker 1: They just scatter.
57:49
Speaker 3: And the Coast Guard goes after one of them and
57:52
hopes they get the right one.
57:53
Speaker 1: And now it's just like, no, it's just taking a
57:55
cruise tonight.
57:56
Speaker 3: What's the problem, officer? But the planes are still all submerged.
58:01
Like the water is so clear you can see.
58:03
Speaker 2: How many fucking– oh, wow.
58:04
Speaker 1: Oh, there you go.
58:06
Speaker 2: That's crazy. How many fucking planes are out there?
58:09
Speaker 3: I flew over it probably 20 years ago. But, I mean,
58:12
there's– That.
58:15
Speaker 1: Wasn't a problem. I don't know how long.
58:16
Speaker 3: I mean, but if you think of probably the cost
58:18
of one of those little Cessnas probably wasn't, I mean,
58:20
with the amount of drugs they were moving on.
58:22
Speaker 1: Yeah. There you go. Fucking wild. That's great. They're kind
58:26
of landing where it's sort of shallow. Yeah.
58:29
Speaker 3: They land and it's like five to 10 feet of water.
58:32
And what do they, they land at whatever, 55 knots.
58:34
So you just try to.
58:35
Speaker 1: It looks nice too. Like, yeah, sure. Wow. It won't
58:38
be comfortable.
58:39
Speaker 3: But I mean, Sully landed at 737 or whatever it
58:42
was in the water.
58:44
Speaker 1: Yeah.
58:45
Speaker 2: Fucking wild. What a crazy part of our culture that
58:49
that happened.
58:50
Speaker 1: Yeah.
58:50
Speaker 2: That the whole cocaine run during the 80s in particular,
58:54
like Miami Vice, all that shit. It's like it shaped
58:58
the entire country.
58:59
Speaker 1: For sure. Oh, yeah.
59:00
Speaker 3: I just remember that one guy in that documentary who
59:02
was like, I think he was from Boston and he
59:04
was like the pilot and he had figured out the route.
59:06
And he was like, man, like we could have gotten
59:08
away with this forever. It was somebody talked and he
59:12
knew that's the only way we would have been caught.
59:14
Speaker 1: He was like, I had it all. He was clearly
59:16
really smart. And the guys did too. You know what
59:19
I mean? There's a whole lot of people out there
59:21
that were like, yeah, we had a nice run. That's
59:24
why I got eight houses.
59:25
Speaker 2: It's like, oh yeah, that's one of the, Real crimes
59:29
that people got away with was bringing cocaine into this country.
59:31
There's a lot of people that got very wealthy, including banks,
59:34
which is just really crazy.
59:36
Speaker 1: Banks with the jewelry companies. Oh, yeah. There was like
59:39
more Jaguar dealerships in Miami than everywhere else in the country.
59:42
It was like doesn't pay to ask questions. So, yep,
59:45
I guess a lot of people like our cars here.
59:47
You don't say. All cash. Sure. Yeah, we can make
59:50
you a deal. Sure.
59:51
Speaker 2: How many backyards in Miami still to this day have
59:54
bags filled? just buried somewhere that nobody knows about.
59:56
Speaker 1: It's probably worth just checking. When you buy a house
59:59
in Miami, just dig the yard up.
1:00:01
Speaker 2: Well, at least find out who owned it before you. Oh,
1:00:02
he's a pilot. Get a truck. Get a tractor. It's
1:00:07
time to dig up the backyard. I mean, one of
1:00:10
those guys in the films had millions of dollars just
1:00:12
buried in his backyard. They had nowhere to put it.
1:00:14
They were making so much money. They just had to
1:00:16
bury it places.
1:00:17
Speaker 1: That's fucking crazy.
1:00:18
Speaker 2: Well, it's why it's a perfect backdrop for the film,
1:00:21
you know, because, you know, that, the situation that the
1:00:25
cops without giving away too much of the plot, but
1:00:27
the situation that the cops are dealing with is a
1:00:28
very real situation. I mean, so many DEA agents turn dirty.
1:00:32
So many cops turn dirty. It's because it just can
1:00:35
get so much temptation. Yes.
1:00:36
Speaker 1: Like you take this, these people, you know, you got
1:00:39
like six, seven people fucking work for a living at
1:00:41
the same bullshit they have to deal with. And there's
1:00:44
$ 20 million, you know? And it's, I mean, it makes
1:00:47
for a great like drama too, even like the, you know,
1:00:50
when the performances, cause all of a sudden somebody's thinking like, okay,
1:00:53
how are they going to react? You know, who's the
1:00:55
first person to say, you know, I'm going to have
1:00:57
to turn this all in, you know, and, and like
1:01:00
getting to play that shit. And for me also, I like,
1:01:03
you know, without being, you know, sanctimonious or preachy, because
1:01:06
I really think movies, we're talking about like what they
1:01:08
do well, what they do very poorly is deliver messages
1:01:11
or lecture. As soon as you get into that thing,
1:01:14
the audience is like, I, you know, I'm going to
1:01:16
go to church for that or fucking school. I don't
1:01:18
need that shit here. Um, But I like that what
1:01:21
was underneath it is like, this is a fucking hard job.
1:01:25
And that there's a lot of value. These characters, the
1:01:30
ones that are trying to do their job, are trying
1:01:31
to get through the day. And just at the end
1:01:34
of the day, have done their job like they said
1:01:35
they were going to do. Adhere to the fucking ethics
1:01:39
that they're supposed to. And at the end of the day,
1:01:40
be able to sleep at night and believe there's some
1:01:42
value in not fucking sleeping. stealing the money or flipping
1:01:45
somebody over, you know what I mean? And doing all
1:01:47
that shit. And that's the win. The win doesn't have
1:01:49
to be get away with the bag of money or fucking,
1:01:52
you know, saves the world from, you know, the evil
1:01:55
scientist laser beam or whatever. It's like the end of
1:01:58
the day, if you can fucking live with yourself and say, look,
1:02:00
you know, I acquitted myself according to what the fucking
1:02:02
expectations were and what am I true to my word.
1:02:05
And I, I think there's so like, that's a, I
1:02:07
don't know that, that affected me. I found that kind
1:02:10
of moving and, and you can't do it if you
1:02:12
create like, if it is to credit to Joe script,
1:02:14
like just two dimensional characters, I'm the hero, I'm the villain,
1:02:17
or this person would never do that. They don't have
1:02:19
to be real people. Like it would be subject to
1:02:21
like temptation and money just represents whatever that thing is
1:02:25
you think you want, or that's going to make your
1:02:27
life better. You're, you know, it's something different to everybody,
1:02:30
but you know, especially when you're like, you're facing like real,
1:02:34
you know, the custody thing or the, you know, the
1:02:36
sick relative or, or whatever it is, that's, it's a
1:02:39
real thing. Nobody's immune to, to, to that kind of temptation.
1:02:43
You know, sometimes I think it's cavalier to be like, Oh,
1:02:45
well you're dirty. You're not putting people in a very
1:02:48
tough situation. A lot of times, particularly if they're feeling
1:02:51
like undervalued, like the woman, the scene where Catalina's like,
1:02:54
I get fucking pissed.
1:02:56
Speaker 2: I get yelled at.
1:02:57
Speaker 1: I get shit on. You know what I mean? Like
1:02:58
I'm out here grinding every fucking day. You know, it's a,
1:03:03
it's a lot to, it's a lot to ask. And
1:03:04
I think it's, it's worth kind of, Making that heroic
1:03:09
without sort of indicating too much.
1:03:11
Speaker 2: No, it's really well written because there's no suspension of
1:03:14
disbelief moments. And that's hard to do in a big
1:03:17
blockbuster action movie. There's always one moment in a movie
1:03:21
where you're like, what? How do you do that?
1:03:24
Speaker 1: You guys don't.
1:03:25
Speaker 2: Have any of those. There's none of that. And I
1:03:27
loved it. I loved it. I loved that aspect of
1:03:30
it too where it felt like all of it was
1:03:32
like I believed it.
1:03:33
Speaker 1: I believed it. And that's really a credit to Joe
1:03:36
and his, like, taste. And that's why we really thought, like,
1:03:39
this guy knew how to make narc. He kind of
1:03:41
obviously understood this world and understood that it has to,
1:03:45
above all, it has to feel real. And that's why
1:03:48
he was open to, like, okay, whatever happens, you throw
1:03:50
in a line, maybe it's good. Can't get your feeling
1:03:52
hurt if it's not, you know. But, like, you got
1:03:54
to be able to take that shot. And we're all down.
1:03:57
you know, trying to spend time with people. I mean,
1:03:58
I kind of feel for these cops, a bunch of
1:04:00
actors descend on you and they're like, what, what kind
1:04:02
of sweatshirt is that? You know, it was like that
1:04:04
Michael J. Fox, James Woods movie. Remember that movie? Wait,
1:04:07
when he, I forget what it was called, but he's
1:04:10
Michael J. Fox is an actor following around James Woods.
1:04:12
He's studying him for a character. And James Woods is
1:04:15
a real leg detective. And he's just like, get this
1:04:17
guy away from me. I kept thinking of that. Kind
1:04:19
of hair gel.
1:04:20
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:04:20
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, exactly. All these questions, you know, but they were.
1:04:24
Speaker 3: Very tolerant of us, which was, which was nice. And, and, uh,
1:04:28
And really, really helpful. Because it's always details. It's always details.
1:04:34
It's like how fastidiously do you kind of mine for
1:04:37
those details? Because I've always been convinced that like an audience,
1:04:42
it's like you were saying, they don't analyze why they
1:04:44
don't believe something.
1:04:46
Speaker 1: They feel it.
1:04:47
Speaker 3: They just don't believe it. And it's usually because those
1:04:50
details are– you don't get those.
1:04:52
Speaker 1: And that's the only thing. Like I'm not great at.
1:04:55
imagining something. Let's invent this. Everything that I've done, like,
1:04:59
that I like has been a result of something I
1:05:01
found in research. Like, for the town, I went down
1:05:04
and just went through the, you know, all the prisons,
1:05:07
you know, out there in Massachusetts, federal prisons, state prisons,
1:05:09
and sat down and talked to guys who robbed trucks
1:05:12
and banks. And, you know, kind of sometimes, you know,
1:05:15
you want to know, and then sat down with the
1:05:16
FBI guys and was like, what are they like? And
1:05:19
the great shit, you know, for me is that, you know,
1:05:21
and I'm in, like... I'm in, like, wet Walpole or
1:05:25
I'm in the prison of Dedham or whatever. And some
1:05:27
guy said, like, after talking for two hours, you know,
1:05:31
I was like, is anything just fucking weird ever happened
1:05:33
or fucked up? Anything you remember? The guy was like, yeah,
1:05:36
one time, you know, we were coming out of this thing.
1:05:39
We robbed this truck and, you know, we had the mask.
1:05:42
We got in the switch car. We drove around the
1:05:43
corner and whatever. We pull up. We get out with
1:05:45
fucking guns, the mask, the whole thing. And we look
1:05:47
over and it's just cops sitting there doing construction duty.
1:05:52
And I was like, right then, he'd tell me a story.
1:05:53
I was like, oh, shit. I was like, what happened?
1:05:56
He goes, you know, he looked at us. We looked
1:06:00
at him. He looked the other way. Whoa. And I
1:06:03
was like, really? He goes, yeah. He didn't want to
1:06:04
end up on the wall at the VFW.
1:06:07
Speaker 3: These guys with full automatic weapons, masks on, switching cars.
1:06:12
Speaker 1: I was like, all right, I'm putting that in the movie.
1:06:14
Speaker 3: And it's a great moment in the town, like in
1:06:16
the movie. Because, you know, they all jump out of
1:06:19
the thing.
1:06:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that scene. And then, and he, oh yeah,
1:06:21
here it is. Exactly. It was like, it's great.
1:06:24
Speaker 3: And it's this awkward, they just stop.
1:06:27
Speaker 1: And this dude, he sees them. They see him. He's like,
1:06:33
oh fuck, we have to kill this guy. Nope. He
1:06:39
turns away. Okay.
1:06:41
Speaker 2: Wow.
1:06:43
Speaker 3: It's such a great, but that's straight from research. I
1:06:47
always loved that story. Um, and then he, and then
1:06:50
the line is here that he put it here.
1:06:52
Speaker 1: And one on the, up at the wall of the VFW. Yeah.
1:06:54
It was a great, you know, it's a great line.
1:06:56
It was such a simple explanation for what, why you think,
1:06:58
what do you think he did? You know? And why? Like,
1:07:01
and that's exactly what it would have been like that guy.
1:07:04
Next day's picture would have been up in the wall
1:07:06
at the VFW. Yeah. You know, and he knew it
1:07:08
and everybody knew it. He said he didn't want to
1:07:10
do it like that. You know, that was, and that,
1:07:13
that kind of stuff is, uh, I don't know. It's
1:07:15
very human, human, calculations and interact. I mean, it's a
1:07:19
very extreme version of it, but it also doesn't have,
1:07:22
sometimes it's not dramatic at all. You know, it's like, yeah,
1:07:24
that was an easy decision. And then the guy never
1:07:26
says anything. I didn't say anything, you know, and kind
1:07:29
of can't really blame him, you know? Yeah.
1:07:32
Speaker 2: The town was a great fucking movie too, man. And
1:07:34
I knew a lot of people like that, you know,
1:07:37
from boxing gyms and stuff. I knew a guy who
1:07:40
was a hit man for Whitey Bulger. I knew a
1:07:42
guy who was a friend of a brother of mine
1:07:45
who went to jail for that, for murder, for killing people.
1:07:49
Speaker 1: What town did you grow up in?
1:07:50
Speaker 2: I lived in Newton. You did? Yeah, I lived in
1:07:53
Jamaica Plain for a little while. I lived in Newton,
1:07:56
but I spent a lot of time in Boston because
1:07:58
I was fighting. I was mostly training, and so I
1:08:00
was around a lot of these very shady characters who
1:08:03
were in the fighting world, and a lot of them
1:08:06
had backgrounds in crime. One of the guys that I
1:08:09
trained with, He went to jail for a little while
1:08:12
and then he got arrested because a guy got killed
1:08:16
and they broke every bone in his body with a
1:08:19
hammer and kept injecting it with cocaine to keep him
1:08:23
awake while they were doing it. And then they cut
1:08:26
his hands off and cut his head off. And this
1:08:28
guy that I used to train with got arrested for that.
1:08:31
Speaker 1: Jesus.
1:08:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. He didn't wind up going to jail for that.
1:08:34
He's dead now, but he was somehow or another. at
1:08:38
least peripherally involved.
1:08:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I didn't do any fighting, but I went
1:08:43
around and found a lot. One of the things about
1:08:46
being an actor is people will talk to you, which
1:08:49
is a fucking amazing gift. Even if somebody's like, oh, yeah,
1:08:51
I kill guys. They'll just come out and it's kind
1:08:55
of the rules all of a sudden don't apply. Like,
1:08:56
these guys in the prison, what the fuck are they
1:08:58
going to talk? You know what I mean?
1:08:59
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:09:00
Speaker 1: In it for whatever and you know so so you
1:09:03
avail yourself of that and and then i had like
1:09:05
you know we had people around that movie who everybody
1:09:08
knew yeah he did that job he never got arrested
1:09:11
and so like yeah people you know meet you know
1:09:13
and and uh and talk to him and it's interesting
1:09:16
because the such a good lesson for, for doing this job,
1:09:20
which is that they're never how you think they're supposed
1:09:23
to be like the murderer person.
1:09:24
Speaker 2: Right.
1:09:25
Speaker 3: Right.
1:09:25
Speaker 1: You know, there's always something a little, I remember one
1:09:27
guy was supposed to be like this really violent kind
1:09:29
of loose cannon fucking guy who was supposedly had done
1:09:33
all this shit, stabbed and killed two people, Faneuil Hall
1:09:36
and shot these guys in a, in a robbery. And
1:09:39
he like shows up with his polo shirt kind of
1:09:41
tucked in, you know, he's how's it going? Just like
1:09:44
I never would have fucking put this guy on fucking
1:09:46
killing four people. You know what I mean?
1:09:48
Speaker 2: They got to have a good time.
1:09:49
Speaker 1: So I love that one movie and you're just thinking, fuck, man.
1:09:52
Like this is– and it's a really good lesson for
1:09:55
like– we tend to read a script and, okay, this
1:09:58
guy is the tough guy and he's going to be
1:10:00
the– it's like you work with– like I had the
1:10:02
fucking– like the opportunity to train with these Delta guys.
1:10:04
Like it's the most elite special forces combat fucking– operators
1:10:10
in the world, I mean, I suppose the SEALs will
1:10:12
take exception to that, but just numerically, right? I think
1:10:14
there's been less than 900 guys ever in the history
1:10:16
of Delta. You meet them and they're not the biggest guys.
1:10:20
They're not the toughest guys. They're not trying to fucking
1:10:23
be hard. And, you know, they're the most relaxed, at ease. And,
1:10:28
you know, I found myself just being like, finally, I
1:10:29
was like, what, can I just ask you, what do
1:10:31
you think makes somebody like qualify for the Delta Force? Like,
1:10:35
what's a good Delta operator? It's like, ah, you know,
1:10:39
Problem solving. Problem solving?
1:10:42
Speaker 2: The guy goes, yeah, it's probably like your job.
1:10:43
Speaker 1: I was like, no, let me tell you something. No,
1:10:45
it isn't. It's really not like my job. I appreciate it.
1:10:48
The very big fucking difference. He's like, yeah, you solve problems. Again,
1:10:51
no one's trying to kill me. See, that's the thing.
1:10:54
But that was the closest insight I got to, which
1:10:56
was I've always kind of thought this about guys like
1:11:00
Brady or something. There's guys that just don't get tight
1:11:05
and that they are kind of able to problem solve
1:11:08
when the problem is like, Well, that helicopter has crashed
1:11:10
and we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and we're outnumbered fucking
1:11:13
six to one. How do you think we should get home?
1:11:15
Like just having your wits about you to make that
1:11:18
calculation while, by the way, you're in a fucking gunfight
1:11:21
and things, you know, I'm sure that does make because
1:11:24
those are the people where I'd be in a fucking
1:11:26
panic and not have no idea what to do. And
1:11:29
you get like attracted to the person who's like seems
1:11:32
to have like, hey, it's good. We're going to be OK.
1:11:34
Everybody get your shit. We're going over here. you'll just
1:11:37
follow that guy. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
1:11:40
But it's a good, it's not always the most, maybe
1:11:43
it's just cause they're so confident. They're not like, I
1:11:45
don't like, I don't need to prove that I can
1:11:47
kick anybody's ass. I don't even get in fights like
1:11:49
of a weapon. It's just a, it always, it surprises
1:11:55
me what it, how those kinds of like extraordinary experiences
1:11:59
and people or extraordinary people don't always manifest themselves in,
1:12:03
How they show up.
1:12:04
Speaker 2: But we have caricatures in our head of what like
1:12:06
these tough people are like. Well, you see that about
1:12:10
MMA fighters. Like there's a lot of MMA fighters. You
1:12:12
meet them. They're like the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people in
1:12:15
the world.
1:12:15
Speaker 1: I remember going to one of the events in L.A.
1:12:18
I think it was at Staples.
1:12:20
Speaker 3: And I was backstage and was talking to one of
1:12:25
like the lawyers for the UFC about– we were talking
1:12:27
about Conor McGregor and he was telling me a great
1:12:29
story about him. And this guy walks up. And he's
1:12:34
in a like chinos, like khaki pants and like a
1:12:37
blue button up, like, you know, kind of business shirt
1:12:40
with spectacles. And he's very small. And I kind of
1:12:44
don't really regard him. And I'm still hearing this story.
1:12:48
And then Padgett goes, Matt, do you know Henry? And
1:12:50
I turn and it's Henry Cejudo. And I'm like, this
1:12:53
fucking guy could wreck me.
1:12:57
Speaker 1: Absolutely fucking destroy me. And he. And he is the
1:13:02
guy that some dummy would try to pick on.
1:13:04
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:13:04
Speaker 1: Right. You know what I mean?
1:13:05
Speaker 3: Like he does not, he's not carrying himself. Like he's,
1:13:08
he just is the thing, you know? And find out
1:13:12
a little bit too late.
1:13:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. Don't find that one out late.
1:13:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:13:15
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:13:16
Speaker 2: A lot of guys do. Unfortunately.
1:13:18
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:13:19
Speaker 2: That's a, it's a, well, they don't have to prove themselves.
1:13:21
Speaker 1: Right.
1:13:21
Speaker 2: They do it all the time. The same was Delta
1:13:24
force guys. Like this idea that there's like outwardly brash,
1:13:27
tough guy, usually that kind of machismo and, That's bullshit.
1:13:32
You're using that because you're insecure. The secure people are
1:13:35
very calm and genuinely very friendly.
1:13:38
Speaker 1: Really nice. Yeah. That's been my experience.
1:13:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy, right?
1:13:41
Speaker 1: It's kind of beautiful, too. I'm kind of like, what
1:13:44
a great guy. And you feel like, that's nice of
1:13:46
you to be so sweet to me because obviously you
1:13:48
don't have to be. Right, right. I'll just give you
1:13:50
my watch if you want that. Yeah.
1:13:54
Speaker 2: No, it is a fascinating thing. It's like we have
1:13:57
these ideas in our head, these caricatures. of what a
1:14:01
tough man is, what a good woman is, what this is,
1:14:03
what that is. I think one of the beautiful things
1:14:07
about film, when a film is really good, is you
1:14:09
see these complex characters and it sort of reformulates in
1:14:12
your mind what a person actually is.
1:14:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's seeing all kinds of different people. Yeah. Yeah,
1:14:19
I completely agree. Look, the fundamental challenge, I think, in
1:14:23
life is to find some humility. which means actually thinking
1:14:30
you might be wrong about the shit that you're pretty
1:14:32
sure about. And it means that, like, you kind of
1:14:34
have to assume somebody else might have a point. You know,
1:14:37
it's not like just writing everybody else off who disagrees
1:14:40
with you because, oh, fuck him, he's stupid, he's an asshole.
1:14:43
You know, like, those are things that actually take work
1:14:46
to get to because the first instinct, because you just
1:14:49
defend your idea or whatever, it's easier is to just...
1:14:52
That it's a zero-sum game somehow. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that
1:14:55
two competing ideas can't exist. Somebody can't be a good
1:14:58
person and believe it. Right, right. Like if you decide–
1:15:02
you disagree. We don't believe this. I don't know. What
1:15:04
about this? What about that? But once you find yourself
1:15:07
relying on like, well, I need to like zero out
1:15:09
this person's humanity in order to defend my idea, I
1:15:12
think that's a pretty good indicator that like there's something
1:15:15
wrong with the way you're thinking. Like because it can't
1:15:17
be that you're right about everything and everyone else is
1:15:20
bad who disagrees with you.
1:15:21
Speaker 2: I think that was one of the most interesting things
1:15:23
about The Sopranos. is that the main character, the guy
1:15:27
that you loved, was a fucking murderer.
1:15:29
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:15:30
Speaker 2: Who would murder his friends. He was a complete mobster
1:15:36
and a thug, but you really loved him.
1:15:38
Speaker 1: You can't love the shit out of that guy.
1:15:39
Speaker 2: It was so complicated.
1:15:41
Speaker 1: I'm rewatching it with my daughter right now. Jim was
1:15:43
so good at doing the part that you found yourself
1:15:45
being like, I don't know, he probably has to kill
1:15:47
him now. That's also a great actor.
1:15:51
Speaker 3: There's a very famous story about Marlon Brando when he
1:15:54
did Streetcar Named Desire.
1:15:57
Speaker 1: And Tennessee Williams, who.
1:15:58
Speaker 3: Wrote it, like freaked out because he was making Stanley Kowalski,
1:16:04
he was making people empathize with Stanley Kowalski. And Tennessee
1:16:08
Williams was like, but I wrote him as a brute.
1:16:09
He was like a two-dimensional brute who just came and
1:16:13
beat up his wife and was supposed to be this
1:16:16
kind of dark looming force over the play. But Brando
1:16:19
was like, no, he's a human being and I'm going
1:16:21
to play him like a fucking human being. And it
1:16:24
changed the play.
1:16:26
Speaker 1: But Williams, in all of his writings. That so much
1:16:28
more reflects life in the real world. Yeah, exactly. Everybody's
1:16:30
the hero of their story. Everyone has their reasons for
1:16:33
why they're doing it. And people don't set out to
1:16:35
be like, I'm just going to hurt someone or dominate
1:16:37
the world. You think, well, I've got to protect what
1:16:39
I have. It's like, you know, not to bring it
1:16:41
back to this movie, but it's like what I liked
1:16:43
about Rip was it was kind of the slippery slope.
1:16:45
You know, the first time you take a little money.
1:16:48
And then, well, you know, I got to cover that.
1:16:49
I don't want to go to jail. My reason why
1:16:51
I did that. But now I've told a lie. Now
1:16:53
I got to cover that thing. And now you have
1:16:55
guys who both live by this code that's very, hey,
1:16:58
you protect the people who are with you and you
1:17:00
got to have this fucking. And so now it's to
1:17:02
be very similar, like by that kind of slippery slope
1:17:05
of ultimately find themselves, you know, well, I killed one
1:17:09
another because it's really not. I don't I don't believe
1:17:12
in that one choice. It's like more. How do you
1:17:15
find yourself? You dig yourself in a fucking hole. Because
1:17:17
you're just covering up the– trying to fix the last
1:17:20
problem that's arisen. And everybody thinks– of course, the roots
1:17:24
for themselves is like– that's what we have to be
1:17:28
concerned with ourselves, our needs, our families, our basic shit.
1:17:31
It's hard to expect people to go like, all right,
1:17:35
and what about like what they think? And I think
1:17:39
that's– I think it's a much more honest evaluation of
1:17:43
people and it allows for like complexity and forgiveness and
1:17:46
fucking all the shit that's sort of beautiful about people.
1:17:50
Like rather than this notion of like, well, we're going
1:17:52
to be binary, good or bad, perfect or not, whatever.
1:17:55
And any infraction then it's like permanently stains you. Right. Right.
1:18:00
Speaker 2: That's like what we were talking about earlier about people
1:18:02
that have been canceled, you know, that– this idea that
1:18:06
one thing you said or one thing you did. And
1:18:09
now we're going to exaggerate that to the fullest extent
1:18:11
and cast you out of civilization in perpetuity.
1:18:14
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:18:14
Speaker 2: It's fucking crazy.
1:18:16
Speaker 3: And yeah, I was because, because I bet some of
1:18:19
those people would have preferred to go to jail or
1:18:23
18 months or whatever, and then come out and say, no,
1:18:26
but I, that we can't, I paid my debt.
1:18:29
Speaker 1: Like we're done.
1:18:30
Speaker 3: Like, can we be done? Like the, the, the thing about,
1:18:33
about that, You know, getting kind of excoriated publicly like that,
1:18:39
it just never ends. And it's the first thing that,
1:18:42
you know, it just will follow you to the grave,
1:18:45
I think.
1:18:46
Speaker 2: Well, it's also this problem that people have with people
1:18:48
that are in the public eye. They have this, like,
1:18:50
desire to chop them down always. You know, and anybody
1:18:53
that stumbles in the public eye, they want to destroy
1:18:56
their life. And they want to just pile on. And
1:18:58
you're not there with them. You don't feel the empathy.
1:19:01
You're not talking to them. They're not a human being.
1:19:03
It's just text on a screen.
1:19:05
Speaker 1: It's just like kind of like you're saying, like that
1:19:07
kind of sixth grade instinct to be like, Oh, he's
1:19:10
in trouble. You know, there's this, you know, human, like
1:19:13
we have dark fucked up instincts too sometimes to like
1:19:16
isolate people or get joy out of someone else. They're
1:19:20
in trouble because maybe because part of it's saying, hey,
1:19:22
it's not me, you know? So if you can point
1:19:24
the finger, everyone's looking over there, we feel safer, you know? Right.
1:19:28
But it's like, yeah, and to take any forgiveness out
1:19:31
of it, you know, is a really fucked up thing
1:19:34
because then it makes it impossible, A, to actually go,
1:19:37
all right, yeah, I did that. Fuck shit. That was wrong.
1:19:39
I get it. You know, because it doesn't matter. Once
1:19:42
you've said you've done it, you've, you've become like an outcast.
1:19:45
And I don't think anybody wants to think, you know,
1:19:48
like you're the sum total of who you are is
1:19:50
your worst moment. Right. You know, it's sort of like the,
1:19:53
you know, you know, I think you want to be
1:19:55
judged just as well. Are you capable of doing something
1:19:56
good or something beautiful? It's not to say to forget,
1:19:58
you know, there's people that just over and over and
1:20:00
over and they're doing horrible shit. Don't care. I get it.
1:20:02
No one's trying to like absolve that. But, you remove
1:20:06
the ability to sort of forgive people or look at
1:20:08
them in a complicated way, or else it's kind of
1:20:10
one become those things. It's like a, let's get one
1:20:13
of ours or one of them. The instinct to get
1:20:15
like a team tribal oriented. And it just becomes a sport. Yeah. Yeah.
1:20:20
Speaker 2: It's also like who wants to live in a world
1:20:22
with no forgiveness and redemption. That's crazy. Like that's just
1:20:26
denying the very nature of human beings and that people
1:20:30
do things that they regret and they do. And then
1:20:32
they become better people because of it.
1:20:34
Speaker 1: And to, Some of the people I would rely on
1:20:37
the most, like trust my kids with the most, have
1:20:39
done shit that they really regret and was objectively wrong.
1:20:44
Other people have been like, shit, I did that. Whether
1:20:47
it's like addiction, I got myself down this fucking road.
1:20:49
I did this. I did this. They're able to go,
1:20:51
I did it. I'm sorry. It's real. I shouldn't have
1:20:54
done it. It was wrong. Actually, those people can become
1:20:57
someone that's very trustworthy because you're like, this motherfucker will say,
1:21:01
If they've done some, they'll actually look at their own behavior.
1:21:04
They'll acknowledge it. And then you feel good and you
1:21:07
feel much versus someone who tells you like, no, I
1:21:11
always get it right. Everything's perfect. Well, it's like it's all,
1:21:13
it's about evolution, right?
1:21:14
Speaker 3: And in our own personal evolution, and we're all on
1:21:19
our own path towards that.
1:21:20
Speaker 1: Like the idea of attacking someone, it's like, oh, so
1:21:24
you ace the test? Like put your pencil down? Like
1:21:28
you nailed being human? You're done. Yeah.
1:21:31
Speaker 2: If you did nail being human, that's not possible because
1:21:34
you forgot about the part about forgiveness, which is a giant.
1:21:37
Speaker 1: Part of being human. You haven't nailed it by definition
1:21:39
if you're out there throwing stones.
1:21:41
Speaker 2: It's most of the people that I find, especially when
1:21:43
there's someone that's publicly in trouble for something, most of
1:21:45
the people that I know that have attacked people have
1:21:48
a lot of questionable shit in their past. And it's
1:21:50
almost like they're trying to hide that by going on
1:21:52
the attack.
1:21:53
Speaker 1: That's the thing. Like if I can point my finger,
1:21:54
it's like, no, it's going to be.
1:21:56
Speaker 2: Oh, he's a good guy. Ben's a good guy. He's
1:21:58
calling them out.
1:21:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
1:22:00
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, you know.
1:22:02
Speaker 1: And if you like, like, yeah, it's like you tell
1:22:05
me to see Wake Up Dead Man, the knives, the
1:22:07
third knife. Oh, it's great. I watched. I really liked it.
1:22:10
I thought it was a really interesting, like, you know,
1:22:13
I'm not a religious guy. I don't like that. You know,
1:22:15
and yeah, I'm aware of all the like, OK, you know.
1:22:18
there's the religion, then there's people who are supposed to
1:22:20
be rational. I thought it was a really beautiful movie about, like,
1:22:24
what's the role of grace in life, you know? And
1:22:28
the really honest examination of that, like, sitting side by
1:22:31
side with, yeah, okay, you don't believe that, but, like, and,
1:22:35
you know, it's not about, like, whether you're going to
1:22:38
argue over fucking evolution. It's about, like, how graceful are
1:22:41
you in your life? You know, how much fucking dignity
1:22:44
can you afford other people? I know you want to
1:22:46
recognize and see that There's maybe something bigger than yourself
1:22:49
and that there's a reason to try to sort of
1:22:52
be– to find that grace, to get better. That was
1:22:55
really beautiful and kind of rare and really surprised. I
1:22:59
was really surprised too.
1:23:00
Speaker 3: I kind of put it on and not thinking I
1:23:04
liked it.
1:23:05
Speaker 1: I loved it.
1:23:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved it too. I think it's one of
1:23:08
the best of the three.
1:23:10
Speaker 1: It was my favorite of the three.
1:23:12
Speaker 2: Those are great. Daniel Craig is great in that role.
1:23:15
Speaker 1: He's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:23:16
Speaker 2: He goes from James Bond to that and so many
1:23:18
other things as well.
1:23:20
Speaker 3: Josh O'Connor, who played the priest, because I first saw
1:23:24
him on The Crown.
1:23:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, I liked him a lot. Man, what an actor
1:23:29
he is. Really, really good.
1:23:31
Speaker 2: How much film do you guys consume? Do you spend
1:23:34
a lot of time watching films?
1:23:35
Speaker 1: Well, with the company, it depends. There's a lot.
1:23:38
Speaker 3: Like if we're working, we're watching cuts after cuts and
1:23:40
going to the editing room. Like there's a lot of
1:23:42
kind of work around all the stuff that we have
1:23:46
going that eats into a lot of time.
1:23:48
Speaker 1: Mostly just trying to keep up with what people are doing.
1:23:52
My issue is really that like we've kind of developed
1:23:55
this pattern where all these sort of movies that, come
1:23:57
out in a more interesting and very, like they're all
1:23:59
jammed out at the last fucking month of the year.
1:24:01
And so all of a sudden you're trying to race.
1:24:03
You got homework. Yeah. Right.
1:24:04
Speaker 2: I got really lucky.
1:24:05
Speaker 1: Like, uh, recently my son, you know, 13 society, he
1:24:10
wants to like watch movies, you know? And I like
1:24:12
give him shit. I'm like, what are you fucking doing?
1:24:13
We always look at TikTok and shit. Like we want,
1:24:15
let's watch a movie. And you know, he's kind of
1:24:17
blowing me off and roll his eyes. And you're like,
1:24:19
you know, I mean, if you're a dad, you're kind
1:24:21
of an asshole fundamentally.
1:24:22
Speaker 2: Like, come on, you don't know what's going on.
1:24:24
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like he told me one
1:24:26
time he was like, dad, I said, let's watch this movie.
1:24:29
I played in the trailer. It was, it was, I
1:24:32
can't remember what the movie was. It was a good movie.
1:24:33
And the trailer was good. He just looks at it
1:24:36
and goes, you know what you guys ought to do?
1:24:38
You guys ought to work with some of the TikTok editors.
1:24:41
I was just like, wow. I went and told the editors,
1:24:45
I told Billy and Chris, I was like, guys, I
1:24:47
got news for you. But, but now he's like, all right,
1:24:50
let's watch. Like, what are some movies I should watch?
1:24:52
You got ladder box. He got into that thing. You know,
1:24:54
it's like, so I was, so I said, okay. What
1:24:57
are the great movies? I'll give you a list. I
1:24:58
start giving them a list. They started watching them. And so,
1:25:01
I mean, this is like, happened for me. So it's like, okay,
1:25:04
what are you watching? King of Comedy. Like last week
1:25:05
I watched Backstreet Driver, King of, all these Scorsese movies.
1:25:09
And it really was like, oh man, I, cause in
1:25:11
my mind, I'm like, sure, I've seen that movie. I
1:25:13
know it. Watched them again. It was like seeing, I
1:25:17
realized how much better they were than I even could
1:25:19
appreciate when I watched it when I was younger. and
1:25:21
it really and it was just the most beautiful fucking
1:25:25
experience for me to watch my son like taking an
1:25:27
interest in it there's the you know the older two
1:25:29
have always been a little bit like yeah dad no
1:25:31
great but hey you guys want to come to the
1:25:32
premiere no not really you guys want to come to
1:25:35
the set no I'm good you know.
1:25:37
Speaker 2: Well it's just too much familiarity you know you grow
1:25:40
up with a dad who's a movie star just like.
1:25:42
Speaker 1: The kids gotta and I get it you gotta be
1:25:44
your own person do your thing they have all their
1:25:46
own shit and I get you know I never even
1:25:48
so I never expected it from my son and I
1:25:50
don't know that he's gonna you know, and I wouldn't
1:25:52
want to lean on him. Like, hey, get into the
1:25:54
family business. Most of the time, it's just like, you know,
1:25:57
we go to like basketball games, baseball, all that type
1:25:59
of stuff. But this was a really, that was like, oh,
1:26:04
I was like so joyful. You know what I mean?
1:26:07
I sit there and watch the movies with my kid.
1:26:09
I was like, this doesn't get better. This is the
1:26:12
happiest I may ever be in my whole life. You know,
1:26:15
right here, watch this movie. And he's like, well, he's
1:26:18
telling me what he thinks, you know, just like, like, Honestly,
1:26:21
the rest of it, you can fucking keep it. That's awesome.
1:26:24
That's the best.
1:26:25
Speaker 2: Well, it's great that you guys still love film. It
1:26:28
hasn't become just a job. It hasn't become a thing
1:26:31
that you do. You really enjoy it and love it.
1:26:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was never a job.
1:26:37
Speaker 3: It was like an absolute dream from the time we
1:26:40
were kids. We did fucking high school theater together.
1:26:44
Speaker 2: That's crazy.
1:26:46
Speaker 1: It was like we're lucky to get it and lucky
1:26:48
to– The whole idea that you could even– the goal
1:26:50
is like to make a living and not have to
1:26:52
be like, well, I'm an actor slash waiter, contractor, dental assistant,
1:26:56
whatever the fuck it is. Like actually I can earn money.
1:26:59
I can– and we always figured like I don't need
1:27:02
that much, especially if we don't have kids. OK, we
1:27:04
can make a living or it's– maybe it's fucking going
1:27:07
to be dinner theater or maybe it's going to be– There.
1:27:09
Speaker 3: Will be a job somewhere that we can find where
1:27:11
we can do this and keep doing it.
1:27:13
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:27:13
Speaker 2: Well, there's something that, I mean, I love when people
1:27:16
love things. I spend time on YouTube watching people fix watches.
1:27:23
I don't know why, but I love when people make furniture.
1:27:26
I love watching people do things that they really love,
1:27:29
that they're invested in. I think we all have that
1:27:31
thing in us where we see someone who's got a
1:27:34
passion for something, someone who really loves it. And That's
1:27:37
what everybody really wants in life, to be lost in
1:27:39
the thing you love, to have a purpose.
1:27:41
Speaker 1: And it's beautiful. I agree. And even watching someone else
1:27:44
with true purpose.
1:27:45
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's hypnotic.
1:27:46
Speaker 1: It reminds me of Joe versus the volcano. He goes
1:27:49
in to buy luggage. Do you like luggage, sir? He's like, uh,
1:27:52
it was luggage. is the central preoccupation of my life.
1:27:56
Guy's a luggage salesman and he fucking loves bags. He
1:27:59
loves nothing more than luggage. And it's the greatest scene.
1:28:03
Speaker 3: I asked Tom Hanks about that when I did Saving
1:28:05
Private Ryan. I was like, can you tell me about
1:28:07
that scene? Because we love this scene so much.
1:28:08
Speaker 1: And he named the actor. He's a Broadway actor, I guess,
1:28:11
the guy. He came in.
1:28:12
Speaker 3: He worked for like one day in this scene. And
1:28:14
he's so good in that movie. And then at the
1:28:16
very end, he's showing him all the luggage. And Tom
1:28:19
Hanks has unlimited money to spend. He thinks he's dying.
1:28:21
And so he.
1:28:22
Speaker 1: Basically goes like, well, what's the best luggage and he
1:28:24
goes well if.
1:28:25
Speaker 3: You know and he opens if I had the means
1:28:27
sir and he opens up this thing and there's this
1:28:29
trunk and it's like this music plays and he opens
1:28:31
it and Tom Hanks is like I'll take.
1:28:34
Speaker 1: Two of them and he goes may you live to
1:28:36
be a thousand.
1:28:36
Speaker 2: Years old.
1:28:39
Speaker 1: This is the greatest day of his.
1:28:41
Speaker 2: Life oh god that's amazing you guys have been in
1:28:45
some fucking bangers man Saving Private Ryan, that opening film,
1:28:50
the storming of the beach.
1:28:51
Speaker 1: Unbelievable.
1:28:52
Speaker 2: That might be the, the most realistic depiction of war
1:28:55
that's ever been made.
1:28:56
Speaker 3: So I remember reading the script and there was all
1:28:59
these dialogue, all this stuff that was written. And I
1:29:01
came late cause I'm only in the, he shot it
1:29:03
chronologically and I'm only in the last, you know, the
1:29:05
last act.
1:29:06
Speaker 1: Of the movie basically. And, and, uh, and he told
1:29:10
me on set, I was saying, how did I go?
1:29:12
How did it go?
1:29:13
Speaker 3: The beginning of the, you know, there's that all that
1:29:14
dialogue with them on the boat coming in and, And
1:29:18
Stephen goes, he.
1:29:19
Speaker 1: Just goes, I cut all of that out.
1:29:22
Speaker 3: He goes, no talking for the first 27 minutes of
1:29:25
this movie.
1:29:26
Speaker 1: Whoa.
1:29:27
Speaker 3: And that was when I was like, oh, my God,
1:29:29
this movie is going to be fucking unbelievable. I think
1:29:32
Tom says, like, I'll see you on the beach or something.
1:29:34
You know, guys are puking. Look at the man next
1:29:36
to you.
1:29:37
Speaker 1: He's not going to live to it. That was the script, right?
1:29:39
Remember that? It was look at the man next to you.
1:29:42
He won't live. He's going to die. Two out of
1:29:44
three of you are going to die. So look to
1:29:45
your left. Look to your right.
1:29:47
Speaker 3: And feel bad for those two sons of bitches because
1:29:49
they're not going to make it. You know, it was
1:29:50
stuff like that. And Steve was just like, nope.
1:29:54
Speaker 1: Wow. No, these guys are puking. It's like the thing's up.
1:29:58
Speaker 1>
1:29:59
Speaker 1>
1:30:00
Speaker 3: You know, and it's just like, and then just boom,
1:30:02
and you're into it. And also they did this incredible, like,
1:30:06
cinema-changing thing.
1:30:08
Speaker 1: Open the shutter. Open the shutter all the way. It
1:30:10
took all the motion blur. It skipped the bleach process
1:30:13
in developing the film.
1:30:16
Speaker 3: And I don't know if they're going to 22 or
1:30:17
23 frames anywhere in there maybe.
1:30:19
Speaker 1: But I just remember. Maybe it's just the open shutter.
1:30:22
It just means that instead of like the motion blur
1:30:26
is what makes something that like moves across the frame quickly.
1:30:28
If you look at each frame, it's like a blurred thing.
1:30:31
And when you roll those at 24 frames, it gives
1:30:33
you the illusion that it moves across fluidly. And if
1:30:36
you basically open the shutter up so you get much
1:30:39
more light, each frame takes a super sharp picture. And
1:30:42
when you run those together, like the piece of dust
1:30:44
goes– And.
1:30:45
Speaker 3: So the mortar explosions are going– and you get that
1:30:48
feeling that you're adrenalized and you're.
1:30:50
Speaker 1: Seeing– you know what I mean? And it's just– and
1:30:52
nobody had ever done it. It's just the master of
1:30:55
the thing who understood how to use the tools and
1:30:57
combined with a great idea. And it's just masterful. Like
1:31:01
that's just how you do it. There's nobody who directs
1:31:03
movies who doesn't go, ah, Spielberg. That's how you do it.
1:31:07
It's just like you say, one of those things, a
1:31:09
guy that's passionate and also caring about something with that
1:31:16
much passion is kind of connected to greatness. And it's,
1:31:19
I think, why we love to see that, whether sports,
1:31:23
fucking fighting. or whatever it is, there's something that makes
1:31:27
you kind of love being alive and also love that,
1:31:31
that person where you go, fuck, like when you see
1:31:33
Michael Jordan, like there was that whole movie that we
1:31:35
did airs really all about like, what does it mean
1:31:37
to be great? And how does it like touch everybody
1:31:40
and change everybody and make people want to fucking improve
1:31:43
their own lives? Because somebody is just better at that
1:31:48
thing than anybody else in the world. It's, it's transfixing,
1:31:52
you know? I mean, I find that, Really fascinating. People
1:31:57
who are great at something and the mystery of like, well,
1:32:00
what is that like? And what does that do to
1:32:01
your life? And how did you get that way? And
1:32:03
what does it take?
1:32:04
Speaker 2: And what's the cost? Because to truly be great at something,
1:32:08
you have to kind of almost abandon everything.
1:32:11
Speaker 1: I've seen that in various ways, like in that kind
1:32:14
of just empirical personal study. I haven't seen anybody who
1:32:18
I think qualifies for that who didn't also seem to
1:32:21
be really suffering. A hundred percent.
1:32:23
Speaker 2: And you're like, damn, you should be so happy. You're
1:32:25
the greatest.
1:32:26
Speaker 1: And, you know, interviewers always go, how do you feel
1:32:28
right now? And there's that sense that, like, either it's
1:32:30
never finished or it's never enough or they can't enjoy
1:32:33
it or they're carried. So the line we put in
1:32:36
here where it's like, and you have to be that thing.
1:32:37
You have to be that thing. You know, like it's
1:32:39
a kind of a burden, too, in a way.
1:32:41
Speaker 2: One hundred percent.
1:32:42
Speaker 1: And I just see that. And that's why we want
1:32:45
these heroes and people who are great to, I don't know,
1:32:48
you know, have their life and have it all in hand.
1:32:51
There's all this tragedy and all this stuff that happens too.
1:32:54
And I, it's, yeah, that's like you said, there seems
1:32:57
to be a real cost.
1:32:58
Speaker 2: Well, there's always a massive cost in personal relationships because
1:33:01
there's no way you have the time for other things.
1:33:03
And the obsession that you have to be the best
1:33:06
at something, you have to abandon almost all your concern
1:33:10
for everything else. You have to have this single-minded focus.
1:33:13
And that comes with a cost for the rest of
1:33:15
your life because You damage relationships. You feel like a
1:33:18
piece of shit.
1:33:19
Speaker 1: And you see that up close and like, that's not admirable. Right.
1:33:22
You don't give a fuck about anybody else. No, I do.
1:33:25
I just care about this more. You know, it's like,
1:33:27
so imagine that you're making the sacrifices and it's causing
1:33:30
injury to people and you know it and you don't
1:33:32
want to hurt them, but you can't help it. And
1:33:34
you're getting rewarded for it. You know, it's. It's complicated, yeah.
1:33:38
Speaker 2: It's crazy because you inspire all these people that don't
1:33:40
know you and you ruin all your relationships. Right, right, right.
1:33:43
Speaker 1: Maybe that's why they say don't meet your heroes.
1:33:47
Speaker 2: There's something to it, man. There really is. But it's
1:33:50
just we all grow from it. There's a fuel to
1:33:54
watching greatness. There's a thing that hits you and lights
1:33:58
you up where you want to do more, you want
1:34:00
to be better, you want to whatever it is that
1:34:03
you can do, whatever it is you do do. You
1:34:05
become more– whether it's a great game, a winning touchdown,
1:34:08
whether it's a great film, a great song. Yeah, it
1:34:10
inspires you. Yeah, it lights you up. And it's the
1:34:13
fuel that we all live off of that consumes– like
1:34:16
we consume to make our culture move forward.
1:34:19
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so there's like a sacrificial element to it,
1:34:22
the people that do it, and we all feed off
1:34:24
of it. And it feels like, well, that's the person
1:34:26
that doesn't get enough out of it. Right, right.
1:34:29
Speaker 2: But in great– I mean how many lives have been
1:34:32
changed by decisions made after great films? Like when I
1:34:36
was a kid, I think I was like seven or
1:34:37
eight or something when Rocky came out. And I saw
1:34:41
it and immediately ran around the block. I've never won
1:34:43
in my life. I was eating raw eggs. I was like,
1:34:48
this is going to change my life. There's things that
1:34:51
happen when you see something truly great that it makes
1:34:54
you want to be better as a human being.
1:34:56
Speaker 1: I remember where I was when I saw it. Denzel
1:34:59
Washington played Malcolm X. Went to the movies. Watched that movie.
1:35:02
I remember leaving. I was 19. I'm thinking, I want
1:35:05
to be a better man. I thought that in my mind,
1:35:08
you know, because of what I had seen this actor
1:35:11
do and the way, you know, that was the only
1:35:14
real conscious thought I had. But I remember having it
1:35:17
and kind of being surprised by it, you know. And
1:35:20
it does. That shit can, you know, it's really touched me,
1:35:24
you know, a lot of fucking people's work. And that's
1:35:27
why you get that, like, you know, you, you, you
1:35:30
see people and you want to let them know, you
1:35:32
know what I mean? And tell them. And I, I
1:35:34
always think people come to go, Hey, I love that movie.
1:35:36
I always feel like, ah, you don't have to say that.
1:35:37
You know what I mean? It makes me kind of uncomfortable.
1:35:42
And I don't ever like put myself in with those
1:35:44
figures who I think are like, no, but there's these,
1:35:47
these towering giants who have done this, you know, I
1:35:51
don't know. It's a, it's, it's, it's, it's, I finally
1:35:55
kind of arrived to a place where I was like,
1:35:57
There was a couple of people who said, oh, I
1:35:58
saw Good Will Hunting. It made me want to go
1:36:00
out to Hollywood and write a script. And I think, oh, shit,
1:36:02
I don't know how to do that. You know what
1:36:06
I mean?
1:36:06
Speaker 2: Sorry.
1:36:07
Speaker 1: At a certain point, I figure, OK, you know what?
1:36:09
Whatever it is, great. That's the thing. The cost of.
1:36:12
Speaker 2: Your fame, that you have to– there's going to be
1:36:15
a bunch of people that are going to come up
1:36:16
to you and want to say those things to you.
1:36:18
And wanting them to say those things to you is
1:36:22
the opposite of– of the mindset that you need to
1:36:25
make those things.
1:36:26
Speaker 1: Right, exactly.
1:36:27
Speaker 2: Which is so counterintuitive. You think like once you become
1:36:30
really successful and you make a bunch of great things,
1:36:32
it's going to be awesome having all these people come
1:36:34
up to you like, no, no, no, I'm doing something
1:36:35
else right now. And I can't be all wrapped up
1:36:38
in the fact that I'm changing your fucking life.
1:36:40
Speaker 1: And also I can't be satisfied or take any fucking
1:36:43
joy in that because I don't think I'm good enough.
1:36:45
I need to fucking, you know what I mean?
1:36:47
Speaker 2: Right, never satisfy. Yeah, you can't. And that's the darkness
1:36:51
of trying to do something great. You'll never be satisfied.
1:36:53
Speaker 1: You see it in a lot of the fighters, the
1:36:55
same kind of thing, the great, great fighters.
1:36:57
Speaker 2: Well, also fighters have a very small window of greatness.
1:37:00
There's only like a certain amount of years where you
1:37:03
can burn the RPMs at the red line. And then
1:37:05
eventually the knees go, the back goes.
1:37:07
Speaker 1: Is it earlier than other sports? It must be, yeah.
1:37:10
Speaker 2: Yes, I think so. Because, like, Tom Brady is still elite.
1:37:13
I bet he could probably play football right now. How
1:37:16
old is Tom now?
1:37:17
Speaker 3: He's probably 47 or 48 now probably.
1:37:20
Speaker 2: I bet he could still play.
1:37:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, but that's a very specific skill position
1:37:25
and the way he played it.
1:37:27
Speaker 2: Right, but running back, no.
1:37:28
Speaker 1: Right, right. Cornerback.
1:37:31
Speaker 2: The elite levels of MMA, especially with USADA testing and
1:37:35
now drug-free sport testing, when they are making sure that
1:37:40
people aren't on testosterone and growth hormone and all these
1:37:43
different things, like you have nine years. You have nine
1:37:45
years at peak performance. That's legitimate.
1:37:48
Speaker 1: How long has Jon Jones been going?
1:37:50
Speaker 2: Jon Jones is a freak of all freaks. Because Jon
1:37:52
Jones beat Daniel Cormier when he was on Coke. That
1:37:55
was one of the funny things he said in the
1:37:58
press conference for the rematch. Daniel was talking shit. He goes,
1:38:00
I beat you when I was on Coke. I mean,
1:38:08
he was getting arrested. He was partying. When he fought Gustafsson,
1:38:13
he beat Gustafsson and he didn't train at all. I
1:38:17
talked to his trainer. He's like, he didn't even show
1:38:19
up at the gym. He was fucking never there. He
1:38:21
was never training. He could just show up and beat
1:38:23
everybody's ass.
1:38:24
Speaker 3: I saw a thing on my Instagram feed of a fighter,
1:38:27
and I don't know who it was, but he was
1:38:28
a heavyweight. And he goes, I had the chance to
1:38:32
spar with Jon Jones, to work with Jon Jones. And
1:38:35
he goes, I knew about it months ahead of time.
1:38:38
He goes, I got my nutrition. Everything was absolutely flawless.
1:38:42
Speaker 1: I got my sleep. Everything was on. He goes, I
1:38:45
show up at the gym that morning.
1:38:46
Speaker 3: He goes, it's me and five other guys. He goes,
1:38:49
he comes in. I think he went to sleep at
1:38:51
four in the morning or something.
1:38:53
Speaker 1: He was out all night. And he goes, he ran
1:38:55
through all six of us.
1:38:56
Speaker 2: That's my buddy, Brendan Shaw.
1:38:57
Speaker 1: Is that who it was? Okay, yeah.
1:38:59
Speaker 3: It was the funniest story. And he goes, and then
1:39:01
I just knew. There's levels. That's a level. But imagine
1:39:06
being that elite and realizing there's another level.
1:39:10
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:39:11
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Brendan was a top 10 heavyweight. And John
1:39:13
wasn't even a heavyweight. John was a light heavyweight. It
1:39:16
was a lower weight class, and he just beat everybody's ass.
1:39:19
And he said, this is his warm-up.
1:39:22
Speaker 1: He just get in there and just fuck everybody up.
1:39:26
Speaker 2: I mean, he has a unique aptitude for MMA. But also,
1:39:29
he had two brothers that were super athletes.
1:39:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, played for the Patriots.
1:39:33
Speaker 2: And Arthur. And so these guys are super athletes. And
1:39:36
so they're beating the shit out of each other all
1:39:37
the time. So they're, like, constantly in competition with elite
1:39:41
athletes from the time he was a child.
1:39:43
Speaker 1: From the time they were tiny.
1:39:44
Speaker 2: So he was just so tuned into competition and he
1:39:47
was so intelligent. Like his fight IQ was above and
1:39:51
beyond everyone's. And he would study tape meticulously.
1:39:54
Speaker 1: Well, that spinning kick that he did.
1:39:58
Speaker 2: Stipe Miocic.
1:39:59
Speaker 3: Where he said he– and I think he thanked his
1:40:02
taekwondo coach. And he said he had been working on
1:40:05
this one specific kick from both sides because of something
1:40:09
he saw on the tape. And he got it off
1:40:13
and hit this guy so hard. Not even on his
1:40:17
liver side. He hit him on the other side. And
1:40:19
you see it shudder through his entire, like, organ structure.
1:40:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, his heel was deep into his body cavity. It
1:40:26
was so gnarly.
1:40:29
Speaker 3: But he just practiced this one specific technique. And he
1:40:34
even said, he goes, it is a devastating shot. Like,
1:40:38
there's not a human being who could take that.
1:40:40
Speaker 2: No, it's like getting hit by a car.
1:40:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. But getting hit by a car in one spot. Right, right, right.
1:40:45
You know what I mean?
1:40:46
Speaker 2: The size of a foot. The size of a 13-foot.
1:40:48
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, here it is.
1:40:49
Speaker 2: Watch this. He sets him up.
1:40:51
Speaker 1: Boom! It's like, yeah, no, it's over, it's over, it's over.
1:40:55
Speaker 2: And this is John moving up to heavyweight because light
1:40:58
heavyweight wasn't a challenge anymore. He decided to become a
1:41:01
two-division champion. I mean, John was a freak.
1:41:04
Speaker 1: You see it roaming through.
1:41:05
Speaker 2: And by the way, that was almost a little bit
1:41:07
glancing because he caught him with a bent leg.
1:41:10
Speaker 1: Right, right. It wasn't even fully extended.
1:41:12
Speaker 2: Which, you know, was even more devastating. But John realized
1:41:16
that as a heavyweight, he didn't have the power that
1:41:18
he had at light heavyweight. And so he said the
1:41:20
most powerful kick is a spinning back kick. So I'm
1:41:22
just going to work on that kick over and over
1:41:24
again because that's the one tool that I have that
1:41:26
can knock a heavyweight out with one shot.
1:41:28
Speaker 1: Wow, okay.
1:41:29
Speaker 2: That's just intelligence.
1:41:30
Speaker 1: It's not just the physicals. He's also like a genius.
1:41:32
He's a genius.
1:41:33
Speaker 2: He's also like– he's the most meticulous when it comes
1:41:37
to game planning and study. He will not take a
1:41:39
short notice fight. Even a guy that he could fucking
1:41:42
beat any day of the week. You can wake him
1:41:43
up at 3 o'clock in the morning. He could fuck
1:41:45
that guy up. He will not take that fight unless
1:41:47
he gets a full training camp to prepare for that fight. Well,
1:41:51
it's just greatness. But John's troubled. John's been arrested a
1:41:55
bunch of times and DUIs and all kinds of crazy shit.
1:41:58
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:41:59
Speaker 2: He's a wild fella. And that pursuit of greatness, I'm sure,
1:42:04
has cost him a lot of shit in his personal life.
1:42:08
But when he knocks D-Pay out and then did the
1:42:10
Trump dance in front of the whole world, for that moment,
1:42:14
he's on top of the world. But then again, it's
1:42:17
like the same thing. As soon as you get back,
1:42:20
what's next? There's another challenge. It doesn't matter how many
1:42:25
people love you now. It's not good enough. There's someone
1:42:28
else looming. You got to beat this guy.
1:42:30
Speaker 1: That seems like a kind of an agonizing thing to
1:42:32
both have the complete compulsion to have to get to
1:42:36
the next level. And the next level keeps fucking moving
1:42:39
the goalposts.
1:42:40
Speaker 2: I'll never forget. I interviewed Matt Hughes after he lost
1:42:44
to BJ Penn. He lost the welterweight title to BJ Penn.
1:42:47
And I'm interviewing him inside the Octagon. He said, I'm
1:42:50
going to be honest with you. It was actually a relief.
1:42:52
And he goes, the pressure of being the champion and
1:42:55
having someone chasing you for so ever in the whole world,
1:42:58
chasing you.
1:42:59
Speaker 1: He goes, I'm going to be on.
1:43:00
Speaker 2: I thought it was an incredibly brave moment for a
1:43:04
guy to say that who is, you know, just this
1:43:06
fucking amazing human being, this warrior to say, I just
1:43:10
got to be honest. It's a relief. Losing my title
1:43:13
feels like a relief. And I was like, wow, that
1:43:16
is so, so brave to be that honest in front
1:43:21
of the, because they, Everybody's like, you just got your
1:43:22
ass kicked. It's like, this is a relief. I took
1:43:26
a burden off my back.
1:43:27
Speaker 1: I'll be back.
1:43:27
Speaker 2: I'm going to regroup. But I needed that. I needed
1:43:30
to just step off the fucking top of the hill
1:43:33
for a little while.
1:43:33
Speaker 1: Get a breath.
1:43:34
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.
1:43:34
Speaker 1: You've got to be like a great, actually, relief to
1:43:37
be able to say something like that. It's kind of
1:43:39
a gift. Instead of feeling like you've got to hide
1:43:41
or pretend it and.
1:43:41
Speaker 2: Go, yeah, I'm high.
1:43:43
Speaker 1: It was a lot to carry.
1:43:45
Speaker 2: Well, the thing about fighting is everything you try to
1:43:47
hide gets exposed. You're exposed completely during camp. Because they're
1:43:51
doing these round– well, they take like– Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:43:55
Smoke up. They're taking like five guys and they're rotating
1:44:02
them in with you. So you're doing five rounds with
1:44:05
fresh guys. So you got one guy who is fucking
1:44:08
warmed up, getting ready for you, and then you're fucking
1:44:11
out of breath. They'll give you a 30-second break instead
1:44:14
of a minute. And then they're throwing in these monsters. And,
1:44:17
you know, you're exposed. You're getting beat in training. You're
1:44:20
getting smothered in training. You're exhausted. You know, you're always
1:44:24
reaching your limits because the only way to surpass those
1:44:26
limits is to hit them. You've got to hit them.
1:44:29
And then they've got to figure out where that limit is. And, okay,
1:44:31
next week we're going to do one extra round. We're
1:44:33
going to do this. We're going to do that. We're
1:44:34
going to do more strength and conditioning. We're going to
1:44:36
push you past wherever your capacity is right now. So
1:44:38
you're always breaking. You're always at the point where you
1:44:42
can do no more because it's the only way. And
1:44:45
you can only maintain that. Like the condition that they
1:44:48
get in when they step into the octagon, it's not
1:44:50
possible to maintain that.
1:44:51
Speaker 1: No, right, right.
1:44:52
Speaker 2: You can only get to it.
1:44:53
Speaker 1: You have to aim at that one moment.
1:44:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to peak. And then if you fuck
1:44:58
up and overtrain, which a lot of those guys do
1:45:00
just because they're such savages and they never want to
1:45:02
leave the gym, then they don't peak right. And then
1:45:04
they come in and they're exhausted. They didn't recover properly.
1:45:07
And then in between rounds, they're too tired. And they
1:45:09
can't go out for the next round. They're too beat up.
1:45:11
That happens too.
1:45:13
Speaker 3: I imagine that level of exhaustion has to be just
1:45:15
insane when you overtrain.
1:45:17
Speaker 1: Oh, God. In an actual championship.
1:45:19
Speaker 2: And you realize there's no– you can't bounce back. And
1:45:23
this guy is fucking blasting your legs with kicks and
1:45:26
hitting you with punches. And you can't get out of
1:45:28
the way anymore.
1:45:29
Speaker 1: Do you think– who was it?
1:45:31
Speaker 3: Was it Khabib who said that they should just do 25-minute?
1:45:35
Speaker 2: Oh, a lot of people said that. I mean that's
1:45:38
a– What? Songs are playing? What's going on? A little
1:45:42
theme song going on there. Get my fucking technology.
1:45:45
Speaker 1: The Teske brothers playing in my pocket.
1:45:46
Speaker 2: That's hilarious.
1:45:47
Speaker 1: Sorry about that.
1:45:48
Speaker 2: Well, Hoist Gracie always said that. Like, that was how
1:45:51
he fought in the early days.
1:45:52
Speaker 1: They just straight 25 minutes.
1:45:54
Speaker 2: Because he was like, look, he goes, if we're on
1:45:56
the ground, he goes, I don't want them to stand
1:45:58
back up again and go in between rounds. And he goes,
1:46:01
I need time to cook them. That's what he would say.
1:46:03
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:46:04
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:46:04
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:46:05
Speaker 2: I mean that's what jiu-jitsu is all about. Jiu-jitsu is
1:46:07
all about staying one step ahead of you until you
1:46:10
become exhausted and then they eventually finish you.
1:46:14
Speaker 1: Like a boa constrictor. Yeah.
1:46:17
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it's the real– but there's this balance
1:46:21
of like making it interesting for people to watch. I
1:46:26
have been a proponent of no stand-ups. Don't ever stand
1:46:29
anybody up. When a guy takes you down– Like you
1:46:31
get an advantage at the beginning of the round anyway
1:46:33
because a striker gets to be standing up when you
1:46:35
didn't earn it. So you should never get stood up
1:46:37
in a fight. I don't care if the guy is
1:46:39
doing nothing. If he's holding you down and you can't
1:46:41
get up, that's how it should be. So it's more realistic.
1:46:43
But it's the balance of it being a sport.
1:46:46
Speaker 1: People want to watch.
1:46:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, because people get– when people grab someone and take
1:46:49
them to the ground and.
1:46:50
Speaker 1: Nothing happens, people go boo.
1:46:51
Speaker 2: You hear it in the audience. And then the referee
1:46:53
gets a little motivated and he stands people up. And
1:46:56
I'm always like, ah, don't stand them up.
1:46:58
Speaker 3: I never thought of it that way, that the beginning
1:47:00
of the round starts to the advantage of.
1:47:01
Speaker 2: The– Always, always, always. You're in a position you didn't earn.
1:47:06
You never got back up. I think they should put
1:47:08
them right back to where they were at the end
1:47:09
of the round because it's one fight. It's not five fights.
1:47:12
So if you start it standing up at the beginning
1:47:14
of each round, that's a new fight.
1:47:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
1:47:17
Speaker 2: In a way.
1:47:18
Speaker 3: What you're pitching, how quickly would the UFC go out
1:47:21
of business?
1:47:22
Speaker 2: Real quick.
1:47:23
Speaker 3: 30 seconds, they're on the ground, and then it's 24
1:47:25
and a half minutes.
1:47:27
Speaker 2: Dude, I'm a terrible businessman. I would give the fighters
1:47:30
more money. I would fuck up the whole business model.
1:47:34
I would get rid of the cage. I would have
1:47:36
them all fight in a basketball court and just put
1:47:39
mats on the ground in the basketball court. I don't
1:47:41
think you should have a cage. I think the cage
1:47:43
gets in the way. It becomes a way to get
1:47:45
back up. Because you press your back up against the cage.
1:47:47
You use it to stand back up again. And you're
1:47:50
in the middle of the center of a mat. It's
1:47:52
very difficult to get back up. And that's realistic. You're
1:47:56
using a foreign object to help you perform.
1:47:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
1:47:59
Speaker 2: But there's the whole macho thing about people fighting in
1:48:02
a cage. And it's like they lock you in there.
1:48:04
Cage match. Yeah. It's just– but I mean in terms
1:48:10
of– like inspirational performances and things that you, when you
1:48:14
see like the human spirit elevated to the, highest possible
1:48:18
place when two very skilled men or women are fighting
1:48:23
in a cage where they prepared for this for three
1:48:25
fucking months. And then, you know, the referee's like, are
1:48:28
you ready?
1:48:28
Speaker 1: Are you ready?
1:48:29
Speaker 2: Let's go. And it's like that moment like is, it's
1:48:34
not like anything else in all sports.
1:48:36
Speaker 1: I think that's the moment that like people show up for. Yeah.
1:48:38
Because they build the intensity. It's the same with, like,
1:48:40
the old Tyson fights or whatever. Oh, yeah. Like, now
1:48:43
it's going to happen. Yeah. And you can't help but
1:48:46
have that feeling once it, you know. And, yeah, some
1:48:49
fights end up being disappointing, whatever, but that moment is
1:48:52
always there.
1:48:53
Speaker 2: Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what we were
1:48:55
talking about with greatness because, like, you could dedicate your
1:48:58
whole life. You could fucking get up in the morning
1:49:00
at the right time. You could eat all the right foods.
1:49:02
You could do all the right training. But then you
1:49:04
see that fucking guy. You're like, oh, no. There's nothing
1:49:09
I can do. I have no chance.
1:49:11
Speaker 1: You know if I look at him. So he had
1:49:13
just a look in his eye. It was one of
1:49:14
the only fighters where you just see the other guy
1:49:16
was scared. Usually they at least hold themselves together where
1:49:19
they come off like, oh, I don't know. This guy
1:49:21
looks pretty tough. Guys would fight Tyson and just would
1:49:24
start and they'd feel that moment too. Oh, shit. They're
1:49:27
letting this tiger out and here he comes.
1:49:29
Speaker 2: And it was like– Well, we're old enough to remember
1:49:31
when he was in his prime and those fights were
1:49:33
like executions. You didn't want to pay for the pay-per-view because.
1:49:36
Speaker 1: They were so funny. I swear.
1:49:38
Speaker 3: I mean Jamie might be able to prove me wrong,
1:49:41
but I'm pretty sure that they cut to Alex Stewart
1:49:43
and they cut to his wife and she was crying.
1:49:47
And this is when they're coming to the center of
1:49:49
the ring.
1:49:49
Speaker 2: Oh, my God. But by the way, for good reason.
1:49:51
Speaker 1: Like, this man might kill my husband.
1:49:53
Speaker 2: Right.
1:49:53
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
1:49:54
Speaker 2: We're certainly going to beat the fuck out of him.
1:49:56
And she knows it. And the world knows it.
1:49:58
Speaker 1: And the guys were ready to quit. Remember that dude,
1:50:00
Hurricane or whatever? White kid who fought him. Pete McNeely?
1:50:03
His guy couldn't wait to throw the towel in. He
1:50:06
had it ready.
1:50:07
Speaker 2: You know, he was ready to go.
1:50:08
Speaker 1: All right, that's it. The bell rings. He picks up
1:50:09
the towel. You got one job. Save your guy's life.
1:50:11
You know what I mean?
1:50:13
Speaker 2: McNeely's fucked up now, too, when you hear him talk.
1:50:15
It's rough. It's rough to hear.
1:50:17
Speaker 1: Oh, really?
1:50:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw him get interviewed recently. That's the dark
1:50:19
side of the sport, of MMA and of fighting. Like,
1:50:23
I had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday, and Johnny Knoxville
1:50:27
was knocked unconscious 16 times.
1:50:29
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ.
1:50:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I said. And I'm like, holy shit, man.
1:50:32
And he seems normal. Like, he doesn't seem like he's
1:50:35
got brain damage. Now, when you're talking to guys and
1:50:38
you know they have brain damage, they're slurring their words
1:50:41
and they're still fighting. Their words all mumbled together like
1:50:45
you have no idea how much they're struggling. And they're
1:50:49
going to be struggling in a downhill slope for the
1:50:51
rest of their life. It's not going to get better.
1:50:53
It's going to get way worse because the real brain
1:50:55
damage occurs like 10 years after the injuries. That's when
1:50:58
it really sets in.
1:50:59
Speaker 1: It just keeps getting worse.
1:51:02
Speaker 2: I mean there's some therapies that they can do now.
1:51:04
They do– and Knoxville did some of it like this.
1:51:09
Magnetic therapy that they do that re-stimulates neuron growth and
1:51:14
oddly enough mushrooms like psilocybin has been shown to regenerate.
1:51:18
Speaker 1: Mushrooms all of a sudden cure a whole bunch of shit.
1:51:20
Speaker 2: I know. Well, probably always has.
1:51:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, right. All of a sudden they're acknowledging it.
1:51:25
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that's opening the doors for
1:51:27
them to acknowledge it is soldiers because it's always been
1:51:30
kind of like a left-wing thing to be into psychedelics.
1:51:34
But all these soldiers are coming back with PTSD and
1:51:37
drug addiction and a lot of CTE from bombs blowing
1:51:41
up and IEDs and concussions. And the only thing that's
1:51:44
helping them is psychedelics. So it's kind of like in Texas,
1:51:48
former Governor Rick Perry has started the Ibogaine Initiative. So
1:51:52
they're using Ibogaine to help all of these different soldiers,
1:51:55
which is ironically dangerous. the drug that Hunter S. Thompson
1:51:58
claimed Ed Muskie was on when he was running for president.
1:52:01
Speaker 1: Oh, really?
1:52:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, remember when he sank Ed Muskie?
1:52:04
Speaker 1: What is Ibogaine?
1:52:05
Speaker 2: It's from the aboga tree, and it is a psychedelic
1:52:08
that is in no way recreational. It is a very
1:52:11
difficult experience. It's not fun for anybody. It's like a
1:52:14
24-hour trip. I haven't done it, but my friends that
1:52:17
have done it say that it's basically like you see
1:52:19
your entire life play out before you. You see where
1:52:23
all your problems come from. You see where all of
1:52:26
your emotional hitches are.
1:52:28
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:52:29
Speaker 2: And with addictions, it has an 80 percent. I think
1:52:33
it's 84 percent with one treatment. They quit whatever they're
1:52:37
hooked on.
1:52:37
Speaker 1: What?
1:52:37
Speaker 2: Not only that, it rewires the brain. So the physical
1:52:41
pathways to addiction, like someone who's addicted to opiates, gone,
1:52:45
completely severed. So you literally don't have a physical addiction
1:52:48
to opiates anymore. So with one treatment, 80 plus percent
1:52:52
of people.
1:52:52
Speaker 1: That's incredible.
1:52:53
Speaker 2: With two treatments, it's in the 90s.
1:52:56
Speaker 1: It's amazing.
1:52:56
Speaker 2: It's amazing. And it's been illegal, you know, since like
1:52:58
1970 in this country, the sweeping psychedelics.
1:53:02
Speaker 1: Like a clinic or whatever.
1:53:03
Speaker 2: But Rick Perry, because he's worked with soldiers and because
1:53:07
he's worked a lot of veterans that, you know, and
1:53:09
he's a very compassionate and intelligent man. He realized like, okay,
1:53:12
maybe I'm wrong about all this psychedelic stuff. And so
1:53:16
he started getting behind this Ibogaine initiative. They passed it
1:53:19
in Texas and now they're doing it with soldiers and
1:53:21
they're going to do with police officers and, I mean,
1:53:23
police officers experience more PTSD. Like I have a good
1:53:26
friend who was a cop in Austin and he said,
1:53:29
and he was also in the military and he said,
1:53:31
what I saw in the military was nothing compared to
1:53:33
what I saw as a police officer. He goes, I
1:53:35
was seeing death and violence on a daily basis. He goes,
1:53:39
when you're deployed, he goes, yeah, you're good. You're going
1:53:42
to see some horrible shit, but you're going to see
1:53:43
some horrible shit mixed in, you know, over a course
1:53:46
of time where, you know, you go out and things
1:53:49
go live. He goes like, Every day.
1:53:52
Speaker 3: Every day you're going directly to somebody who's having the
1:53:54
worst moment of their life.
1:53:55
Speaker 2: And every day you're pulling someone over and they might
1:53:57
shoot you. Like you have no idea. You're pulling up
1:53:59
to tinted windows. You don't know what the fuck is
1:54:02
going on. You're running the plate. The license is expired.
1:54:06
You have no idea who's in the car. You don't
1:54:09
know anything. And you've seen all the videos. We've all
1:54:11
seen videos of cops getting shot down like when they're
1:54:14
pulling over a car. We've all seen it. And so
1:54:16
these guys are living with this fucking PTSD all the time.
1:54:19
And then they have to live in real life. They're
1:54:21
supposed to go home and they're supposed to just be
1:54:23
a normal dad and a normal neighbor. And their fucking
1:54:27
head is just a hurricane of chaos. And Ibogaine has
1:54:31
been very beneficial for those people to just sort of
1:54:34
come down and try to find the root of all
1:54:38
this stuff and get them off pills and get them
1:54:41
on the straight.
1:54:42
Speaker 1: That's great.
1:54:43
Speaker 2: It's amazing. I don't know why we got on the mushrooms. Well, Ibogaine.
1:54:47
Because during the presidential elections, he started spreading these rumors.
1:54:54
And it's in the documentary. What is that documentary? Is
1:54:58
it Fear and Loathing? Gonzo. Gonzo. That's right. In that documentary, Gonzo,
1:55:03
he talks about it. So he's getting interviewed by Dick Cavett.
1:55:05
And he goes, yeah, there was a rumor running around
1:55:09
that Ed Muskie was on Ibogaine. And I knew about
1:55:12
it because– I started that rumor.
1:55:17
Speaker 1: I sold it to him.
1:55:19
Speaker 2: So the guy completely cracked. So like this guy was
1:55:22
like a front runner for the president and he fucking
1:55:24
completely cracked because everybody thought that he was on drugs
1:55:28
because Hunter S. Thompson was just running around like saying
1:55:30
there's these Brazilian witch doctors who are coming in to
1:55:33
treat this guy. It's crazy shit. That's great.
1:55:36
Speaker 1: They were like, and Hunter would know.
1:55:38
Speaker 2: Yeah. But it's crazy that he chose Ibogaine too because
1:55:42
Ibogaine is like, it's not a recreational drug and it's
1:55:46
not a drug of addiction. It's literally a drug that
1:55:48
stops addiction.
1:55:49
Speaker 1: No, but he was the guy that would have the
1:55:50
full– the whole book is full of these esoteric drugs
1:55:54
you've never heard of. Yes. In a really casual way. Yeah.
1:55:56
Of course, four of us stopped to get Ibogaine at
1:55:58
the one gas station that sold it between needles and– Yeah, sure. No,
1:56:03
of course you didn't. Yeah.
1:56:04
Speaker 2: But it does help people that have brain damage as well.
1:56:07
It's supposed to like cause some sort of neuroregeneration. Neuroregeneration.
1:56:11
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
1:56:12
Speaker 2: There's stuff out there that can help people, but– a
1:56:16
large percentage of these fighters are silently suffering and we
1:56:19
don't ever hear about it.
1:56:21
Speaker 1: They say like, it's supposed to be that it's like
1:56:23
the argument is, is because it's, you know, they're not
1:56:26
using a glove like that football is supposed to be where,
1:56:28
I mean, wasn't that the sort of rationale that like
1:56:31
you were going to have less impact in boxing because
1:56:33
they're the boxing gloves.
1:56:34
Speaker 3: No, but it's, remember this all, it's like the sub
1:56:36
concussive blows. It's like, it's not necessarily the, the, the
1:56:40
one shot knocking you out as much as the repeated
1:56:43
kind of like small blows.
1:56:45
Speaker 1: Like a little bit of brain bleed. I'm sure that's
1:56:47
like they're all bad for you. You know what I mean?
1:56:49
Like aversion.
1:56:50
Speaker 3: Knocks to the head are not a good thing to
1:56:52
be avoided.
1:56:54
Speaker 2: Well, it's also what you take in training too. We're
1:56:56
only considering what happens during a fight. If a guy
1:56:58
has 40, 50 MMA fights, that's 40.
1:57:01
Speaker 1: How many rounds does he have right in the gym?
1:57:03
Speaker 2: Oh, training camp is fucking brutal. And depending upon how
1:57:07
intelligent your camp is, like some people are really smart
1:57:10
and they'll spar. where they're not hitting each other hard,
1:57:13
and then maybe one day of the week they go live,
1:57:15
but you do it with trusted... They're very close to you.
1:57:19
These are people that you care about and love, so
1:57:20
they're not going to try to hurt you on purpose.
1:57:22
But sometimes not. Sometimes you're in a hostile gym, and
1:57:26
you've got to spar with people you don't even know.
1:57:28
They're from other countries. You have a big name. They're
1:57:30
trying to take you out. But the amount of damage
1:57:34
these guys take... I don't know if football's better or worse.
1:57:38
The thing about football is... the big impacts are way
1:57:42
worse because when you've got a 300 pound super athlete,
1:57:47
that's fucking full tail all the way from across.
1:57:51
Speaker 1: Boom.
1:57:52
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like, yeah, you're getting hit by a
1:57:54
truck and that, but that doesn't, it's, it's not targeted
1:58:00
necessarily at your head. So it's like, what, what is
1:58:03
better and what is worse? You know, boxing's bad. You know,
1:58:05
it's like you have less options. MMA slightly better because
1:58:09
if especially if you're a grappler you can take guys
1:58:11
down and you can beat them up on the ground
1:58:14
but it's ultimately you're paying a price yeah but for
1:58:20
that glory for that one moment when they win and
1:58:23
the fucking 16,000 people are on their feet screaming There's
1:58:26
probably no drug like that that could ever reproduce it.
1:58:29
And those guys chase that high their entire life. And
1:58:32
then after it's over, they feel oddly detached.
1:58:36
Speaker 1: Right. Nothing ever rises to that level again. Right.
1:58:39
Speaker 2: You can make films until you're 100 years old. You
1:58:41
can make great films forever. You can do the thing
1:58:44
that you love forever. They have a little window, a
1:58:47
little window of greatness.
1:58:47
Speaker 1: That's the really tough thing about being an athlete. You
1:58:50
were talking to Pete Sampras that time. We met Sampras
1:58:52
years ago. He was like– we were probably, I don't
1:58:55
know how we were 30. He was 32 or something
1:58:57
like that. And he was kind of, we were like,
1:58:59
Oh my God. You know, he had all these fucking,
1:59:01
you know, wins and grand slams. And he, he had
1:59:03
a kind of vaguely like, yeah, he was like, yeah,
1:59:05
you guys look, I'm about to retire. I'm finished. And
1:59:09
we were, you know, young guys were, you know, just
1:59:11
getting started. You know what I mean?
1:59:13
Speaker 3: Like we're also, the thing is you get better at
1:59:16
your job the more you do it.
1:59:17
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know? And so it's that thing with the athlete. Yeah.
1:59:20
I was having this conversation the other day.
1:59:21
Speaker 3: It's like, You have all the physical skills at the beginning,
1:59:25
but you become better at your sport as your skills
1:59:29
are declining.
1:59:31
Speaker 2: The body just doesn't want to do it anymore.
1:59:33
Speaker 1: You've got to just become Greg Maddox and compensate with
1:59:38
all the tricks and location. That's why that drama of
1:59:42
the aging athlete is so powerful. It's like, do we
1:59:46
still have it in me? Can I still do it?
1:59:48
Is what I've learned... enough to compensate for what I've lost,
1:59:55
you know?
1:59:55
Speaker 2: Well, there's an interesting story about Vitor Belfort. So Vitor
1:59:58
Belfort was, he won the UFC heavyweight tournament when he
2:00:02
was 19 years old. That was like the first event
2:00:04
I ever worked at in 1997. I mean, he was
2:00:06
like one of the all-time greats for sure. But as
2:00:09
he was getting into his 30s, he was starting to decline.
2:00:12
Then the UFC allowed fighters to use testosterone replacement therapy.
2:00:18
And Boy, did he fucking use it. I don't know
2:00:21
what his levels were, but they were like superhuman levels.
2:00:24
And there was a moment in time for a few
2:00:27
years where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy. And
2:00:30
people refer to it as the TRT Vitor years because
2:00:33
he was fucking terrifying because he has the mind of
2:00:37
a veteran. Incredible amount of experience. But now his body
2:00:41
is moving like a 25 year old. And so he
2:00:44
was just annihilating people, just lighting people on fire.
2:00:48
Speaker 1: So they're not allowed to use testosterone?
2:00:50
Speaker 2: No, they can't use anything.
2:00:51
Speaker 1: No. How about peptides? Can they use peptides? Nope.
2:00:54
Speaker 2: Nope, not even peptides. They're trying to take that and
2:00:58
reform that. But there's a lot of ignorance about peptides,
2:01:01
what they actually do. I mean all it's allowing you
2:01:03
to do is soft tissue injuries, heal quicker and optimize
2:01:06
your body's ability to produce hormones. So instead of adding
2:01:09
exogenous hormones, you're allowing your body to produce them more
2:01:13
naturally and it just makes you more healthy. For a
2:01:17
very unhealthy job where you're getting hurt all the time,
2:01:21
it's going to be better for the sport, better for
2:01:23
the athletes to allow them to all use it. And
2:01:25
it's also– there's no long-term damage it's going to do
2:01:28
like steroids where it shuts down your endocrine system. So
2:01:31
I hope they reform it. But the idea was that
2:01:34
there's so many fucking loopholes and so many people cheat.
2:01:37
Big camps used to hire scientists. So they had a
2:01:41
scientist on staff. What does he do? Yeah, exactly. Not
2:01:47
only procuring stuff that would slip by the test because
2:01:50
there's like the Balco stuff.
2:01:52
Speaker 1: With Barry Bob DeClear.
2:01:54
Speaker 2: There's stuff probably right now that people are using that's
2:01:57
slipping through. And there's a lot of experts that have–
2:02:00
like one of the things is animal-derived testosterone. So testosterone,
2:02:05
they use a carbon isotope test, I think. I believe
2:02:08
that's what they use to figure out where the testosterone
2:02:11
came from. So if your testosterone is like at a
2:02:14
very high level, they test all your other ratios. They go, well, no,
2:02:17
it all seems likely. He's an outlier. He just has
2:02:21
naturally high testosterone. But testosterone that you get from like
2:02:26
synthetic testosterone is derived from a wild yam. Believe it
2:02:30
or not.
2:02:30
Speaker 1: Really?
2:02:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not animal-derived testosterone. So the composite of it
2:02:35
varies when they run the tests on it and they
2:02:37
can determine.
2:02:38
Speaker 1: They can determine that it's a yam-based testosterone.
2:02:40
Speaker 2: It's exogenous, not endogenous.
2:02:41
Speaker 1: That's the yam in there fighting. It's not yam.
2:02:43
Speaker 2: But if they could figure out a way to– and
2:02:45
there's a lot of proof of concept to this. Can
2:02:48
they figure out a way to extract testosterone from animal sources?
2:02:50
Speaker 1: Bull testosterone?
2:02:51
Speaker 2: Something like that. Well, the taurine. They used to inject
2:02:54
Hitler with taurine. Hitler was like a fucking guinea pig
2:02:58
for this one doctor who tried a bunch of shit
2:03:00
on him. And one of the things they did was
2:03:02
like inject him with bull testicles and stuff to try
2:03:04
to keep him virile. Yeah, but there probably are athletes
2:03:09
right now that are using some shit that they haven't
2:03:12
figured out yet. So give them any loopholes at all.
2:03:15
They're like, no, no, no, fucking no loopholes, no IVs,
2:03:18
no nothing.
2:03:19
Speaker 1: No IVs. No IVs. Like vitamins and– Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:03:31
Speaker 2: So the ratio is.
2:03:33
Speaker 1: High because you add more water.
2:03:35
Speaker 2: Yes. You would just fill them up with saline, and
2:03:39
then when they go to piss, like, nope, clean.
2:03:40
Speaker 1: Look at the ratio.
2:03:42
Speaker 2: Because it's like so much water is being processed through
2:03:45
the body that it doesn't have time to show the testosterone.
2:03:47
So there's a way to mask it, especially with, like,
2:03:50
things that you would add to the IV. So there's
2:03:53
no– you can– it's only food and approved supplements through, like,
2:03:58
really high-level labs like Thorne, like Thorne Supplements, where it's
2:04:01
third-party tested. So they can't do anything. But for a while,
2:04:05
they let them do it, and those TRT VTOR days
2:04:08
were my favorite fights to watch.
2:04:11
Speaker 1: Did they stop doing fighting because they thought it was, like,
2:04:14
advantaging certain people, or shit happened that they're like, this
2:04:16
is fucked up?
2:04:17
Speaker 2: Well, look at the difference. That's TRT VTOR on the left,
2:04:20
and that's him on the right when they made him
2:04:21
get off of it. Look at the difference. I mean,
2:04:24
that's fucking stunning. On the left, though, dude, that motherfucker
2:04:28
was terrifying. When Luke Rockhold fought him, he told me,
2:04:31
he goes, dude, when I stood next to him at
2:04:33
the fucking weigh-ins, he had muscles on his teeth. He goes,
2:04:36
this fucking dude was so jacked. He was so scared.
2:04:39
I was like, what the fuck is he on? He goes,
2:04:41
he knew he was on something. It's just– it's cheating.
2:04:45
It really is because you can jack your levels way
2:04:49
above a normal human beings because that's what a lot
2:04:52
of guys– there was a few fighters that were pulled
2:04:54
from cards because like say if a really high level
2:04:57
is like 1,100, they were testing like 1,800, 1,900. They
2:05:01
were like people that have never lived before. They were
2:05:03
like a science project.
2:05:05
Speaker 1: A different species.
2:05:06
Speaker 2: And they were insane confidence. This person is mostly testosterone.
2:05:09
Insane confidence because they were essentially like a raging gorilla.
2:05:12
They were just insanely confident and just so fired up.
2:05:16
They couldn't wait to smash somebody because they were just
2:05:19
fucking maniacal. They were a berserker. So it's not a
2:05:23
person anymore. Now you're a science project. It's not– there
2:05:26
are rare outliers who– like Tyson when he was in
2:05:29
his prime. It's rare physical specimens and like that's part
2:05:32
of the game. But that's God. That's nature. This is
2:05:35
not Balco Labs. And so they won't allow them to
2:05:39
do anything anymore. And that's why. And Vitor was one
2:05:42
of the guys that tested way over the line. And
2:05:44
then they just decided. But that's what they're going to do.
2:05:48
Speaker 1: If you say it's legal, they're just going to take
2:05:50
as much as possible. More is better.
2:05:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you say you do one CC a week.
2:05:55
They're like, I heard five. I heard five CCs. And
2:05:57
these guys are just training five times a day. And
2:06:00
they never get tired. And they recover like that. And
2:06:03
they never have to worry about soft tissue injuries because
2:06:05
they heal like you're a fucking six-year-old. You just– your
2:06:08
body just like– You're like fucking Wolverine.
2:06:11
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:06:12
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, man. Well, that's the thing about peptides too,
2:06:14
the Wolverine stack. BP-157 and TB-500. I don't know if
2:06:18
you ever get injured. If you ever get injured, get
2:06:20
immediately on BP-157 and TB-500.
2:06:22
Speaker 1: I didn't hear about TB-500. What's that one?
2:06:25
Speaker 2: Thymus and beta-500. Oh, yes. In conjunction with BPC-157, it
2:06:30
is a fucking phenomenal stack. And it just really helps injuries.
2:06:33
Speaker 1: I didn't know they called it the Wolverine stack.
2:06:34
Speaker 2: That's what they call it, the Wolverine stack.
2:06:36
Speaker 1: For healing? Yeah.
2:06:36
Speaker 2: Because you fucking heal incredibly well. I was talking to
2:06:40
a pro football player who pulled his hamstring. He's like, dude,
2:06:42
I shot that shit right into my hamstring for two
2:06:44
weeks and I was right back on the field.
2:06:46
Speaker 1: Wow.
2:06:46
Speaker 2: I was like, that's nuts. I go, what is a
2:06:48
normal rehab? He goes, three months. He goes, in two
2:06:51
weeks I was back on the field. I go, what
2:06:53
the fuck? He goes, I don't know how bad the
2:06:54
injury was. He goes, but to me it's like, fuck.
2:06:57
I pulled my hamstring. I'm fucked now for X amount
2:07:00
of days. He goes, two weeks later, I was playing
2:07:01
full tilt. I'm like, that's nuts.
2:07:04
Speaker 1: And going right into the area of the injury.
2:07:06
Speaker 2: Right into it. Some people think you don't have to
2:07:08
do that. They think it's systemic. So you just stick
2:07:11
it in your fat on your side. But he's like, no.
2:07:13
And most athletes will tell you the best benefit is local.
2:07:17
Shoot it locally into the area.
2:07:19
Speaker 1: And it just has– Like cortisone or whatever.
2:07:22
Speaker 2: What is the– Yeah, cortisone. But cortisone just masks it.
2:07:25
Speaker 1: That numbs it or whatever.
2:07:26
Speaker 2: Not only that, it has a tendency if you do
2:07:29
it too many times to weaken tendons.
2:07:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:07:32
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so it could actually exacerbate the problem because
2:07:34
it takes away the pain.
2:07:35
Speaker 1: It's like an emergency measure. Right. Yeah.
2:07:36
Speaker 2: It takes away the pain. But I mean then there's
2:07:40
the enhanced games. That are coming out in Vegas this year.
2:07:43
Speaker 1: I know.
2:07:43
Speaker 3: My friend had that idea a long time ago. He
2:07:45
was like, you should just do the drug Olympics for cash.
2:07:48
He goes, do it in Vegas for cash. And then
2:07:50
the Enhance Games game.
2:07:52
Speaker 2: They're doing it.
2:07:53
Speaker 1: I sent him a text. I was like, they're doing it. Yeah.
2:07:56
I'm down.
2:07:57
Speaker 3: Let's see what a human being can do.
2:08:00
Speaker 2: That's what I think. I mean, look, when Barry Bonds
2:08:03
and Sammy Sosa and those guys were cracking out home runs,
2:08:06
it was one of the most.
2:08:07
Speaker 1: Exciting times in baseball. It was pretty exciting. It was
2:08:08
fucking great. That's why they didn't do anything.
2:08:10
Speaker 2: Right.
2:08:11
Speaker 1: It wasn't a fucking mystery to anybody. Right. But Avery's
2:08:13
tuning in. Look at the Bash brothers. Right. They played
2:08:16
baseball on a strike. You know, they almost fucking destroyed
2:08:19
that league. And then people started watching. Yeah, they brought
2:08:21
it back. And then Bonds is like, well, these two
2:08:24
fucking guys are hitting this many home runs. I'm the
2:08:27
best player in baseball. Which he was. Yep. And when
2:08:29
he did it, it lights out. Yeah. You know what
2:08:32
I mean? He had a year where he only swung
2:08:33
and missed 26 times. 162 games. Three and a half
2:08:37
at-bats a game. Only swung and missed. I mean, that's just,
2:08:42
you know. And yeah, Maguire would just move his wrist
2:08:46
to get the ball out of the park. And it
2:08:47
was fun to watch.
2:08:49
Speaker 2: And when people say, like, steroids don't make you a
2:08:50
better athlete, well, they maybe don't make you a better athlete. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:08:54
But if you're a fucking Barry Bonds.
2:08:56
Speaker 1: If you're already an elite athlete, yeah.
2:08:58
Speaker 2: If you let Jon Jones do all the juice he wants,
2:09:01
he'd be fighting until he's 50 and fucking people up.
2:09:04
If you say, Jon, we've really come to our senses. Like,
2:09:07
this sport's all about excitement. Want to give the people
2:09:09
what they want. Let people make informed choices based on
2:09:13
their own discretion. Oh, it's like that.
2:09:15
Speaker 1: Welcome back.
2:09:16
Speaker 2: Welcome back. Then also John looks like Vitor in that picture.
2:09:19
Speaker 1: He'd be undefeated.
2:09:20
Speaker 2: By the way, John beat Vitor when Vitor was in
2:09:22
his prime. And Vitor caught John in a full armbar.
2:09:26
totally locked his arm out, hyperextended, popped it, went backwards.
2:09:30
You can see the video of it. His elbow is
2:09:33
going that way. He wouldn't tap and then beat him
2:09:35
in the next round.
2:09:36
Speaker 1: With one arm. Yep. One arm.
2:09:39
Speaker 2: His arm was fucked for like a year after that.
2:09:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Give that man some steroids. Let's see
2:09:45
what he can do. Steroids.
2:09:46
Speaker 2: Let him be the king of the world.
2:09:48
Speaker 1: Yeah. The dream team. It's like, you know, the first
2:09:51
time the pros went to the Olympics, whatever, it was 90. Oh, yeah.
2:09:54
It was so fun. Won every game by 70 points. Yeah.
2:09:56
It wasn't close, but it was a hell of a
2:09:58
lot of fun. It was fun to watch.
2:09:59
Speaker 2: Well, the argument for that made sense, though, because, like,
2:10:01
these other people are being compensated in their countries.
2:10:03
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
2:10:04
Speaker 2: I had no problem.
2:10:04
Speaker 1: And then, by the way, now it's got more. That
2:10:06
last Olympic championship, that was a great game against France.
2:10:09
That was fabulous, you know. I mean, yeah, they're going
2:10:12
to wreck some smaller countries and stuff, but okay, you're
2:10:16
playing pros, they're playing pros. The whole definition of amateurism
2:10:19
has gotten a little bit like, you know.
2:10:20
Speaker 2: Yes.
2:10:22
Speaker 1: People find like a convenient definition of it according to
2:10:25
what's there. You've seen college sports is changing and stuff. Like, look,
2:10:28
I got no problem if you're going to apply the
2:10:29
rules evenly, but sometimes when it feels like it's just
2:10:31
an excuse to like for the NCAA to make a
2:10:33
billion dollars off the TV deal, I'm like, no, no, no,
2:10:36
you guys, you're getting an education. It's like a little
2:10:39
bit like, yeah, you're in education. You guys make a
2:10:40
lot of money because people want to see Nebraska play.
2:10:43
Speaker 2: It's exploitation. Yeah, and I'm glad they've changed that with
2:10:47
college sports because these guys are the reason why you're
2:10:49
filling up the seats, and they deserve that money.
2:10:52
Speaker 1: Not even one of them is going to be in
2:10:53
the NFL. Right. You know what I mean? Some of them,
2:10:55
that's their window to make that fucking money. You know
2:10:57
what I mean? It's hard.
2:10:59
Speaker 2: It's hard. And the risk of catastrophic injury is always there.
2:11:02
Speaker 1: It's constant.
2:11:03
Speaker 2: Constant. Yeah.
2:11:04
Speaker 3: And the metrics for it's like, what is it, a
2:11:08
two and a half year career or something?
2:11:11
Speaker 1: Yeah. Depending on your position. But I mean, it's such
2:11:14
a long time. That seems just fair and obvious. You
2:11:16
pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of college,
2:11:17
but not to like, you know, come on.
2:11:19
Speaker 2: Well, that's a great thing about doing something where you're
2:11:22
not relying on your body like acting.
2:11:24
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:11:25
Speaker 2: You can, you can kind of do it forever, you.
2:11:27
Speaker 1: Know, keep going until you lose it. You know what
2:11:29
I mean? It's really, yeah, it's great. And it's got
2:11:31
its own competitive aspect and it's a lot, you know,
2:11:34
but like, okay, great. If it's, if you get a
2:11:37
really better yourself and then the expectation is, well, I
2:11:39
got to do something that's interesting enough that people want
2:11:42
to watch it. Well, that's the proposition.
2:11:43
Speaker 2: How do you guys decide like on projects that you,
2:11:46
you choose? Like, I'm sure you have so many options now.
2:11:49
Like what, what, makes you say this is what I'm
2:11:53
going to spend the next six months doing.
2:11:54
Speaker 3: It's really– I mean there are a bunch of different
2:11:56
factors like the director.
2:11:58
Speaker 1: Is being the most important one.
2:12:00
Speaker 3: But if you read a script and– like we've read
2:12:03
so many thousands and thousands of scripts and written so
2:12:06
many scripts and worked on so many movies that if
2:12:11
we read something and it's that thing we were talking
2:12:14
about earlier, you get that kind of emotional– Something happens
2:12:19
when you read it. You go, okay, well, then you
2:12:22
pay attention to it, maybe read it again, go, wait
2:12:24
a minute. If it moves you in that way, ultimately
2:12:28
the big decision is saying yes because you're going to
2:12:32
spend– It's the last point of which you have total control.
2:12:36
Speaker 1: Right. And then you're in. Then you're in. And you're
2:12:40
in whether it's good or bad.
2:12:41
Speaker 3: I mean I've been on those movies where I knew
2:12:44
a month into a six-month shoot that like this is
2:12:47
not going to work.
2:12:49
Speaker 1: And that is the fucking worst.
2:12:51
Speaker 2: What is that like?
2:12:52
Speaker 1: That's the worst.
2:12:53
Speaker 3: It is.
2:12:53
Speaker 1: I came to think of that. It happened to me.
2:12:56
They're going to shoot us all when it comes out. Yeah. Okay.
2:12:58
It's like it's all bad. It's like it's going to
2:13:00
be 80 16-hour.
2:13:00
Speaker 3: Days in a row and then– a post-production period that's
2:13:08
going to be pretty fraught and then it's going to
2:13:10
come out and we're going to get fucking crushed.
2:13:11
Speaker 2: And then you're going to have to sell it. You're
2:13:13
going to have to walk.
2:13:14
Speaker 1: The fucking plank and sit down with access. You know
2:13:18
what I mean? Like, so, saw the movie. It's really terrible.
2:13:20
Speaker 2: How important is that stuff still today? Like, the press stuff.
2:13:25
Is that still important to you?
2:13:26
Speaker 1: It is. I don't know to what degree each specific
2:13:29
thing is. I mean, it's kind of ironic because we
2:13:31
were talking about coming on this show today. And I
2:13:33
remember saying, I was like, we were doing this show.
2:13:35
This is probably more meaningful than the rest of the
2:13:37
shit we do in aggregate to promote this movie.
2:13:39
Speaker 3: Like we spent this whole week in New York doing,
2:13:42
you know, I don't know how many interviews, you know, the,
2:13:44
the quick ones with all.
2:13:45
Speaker 1: The 105 minute interviews, all the, the, the evening shows,
2:13:48
the day shows, all that stuff.
2:13:51
Speaker 3: And, and this just given how many people listen to
2:13:54
the show, will be more meaningful.
2:13:57
Speaker 1: But we think, I mean, that's our, we were speculating. Historically, right?
2:14:01
If you look at it, that's it because they've changed
2:14:03
to like, all of it feels kind of produced and
2:14:06
forced and advertised and, and people have become resistant to
2:14:09
anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a shtick.
2:14:11
And you go on and you do your song and
2:14:12
dance and they say the thing, it looks great. And
2:14:14
nobody cares. Like they're looking to go either because somebody
2:14:17
they know says it's interesting or somebody that they is trusted. And,
2:14:21
A trusted person is in, like you said, your feed, right?
2:14:24
And it's your friend or your cousin, or they affix
2:14:27
that to somebody, which has become a more rare thing,
2:14:30
like who's a legitimate neutral arbiter, right? Who I can't
2:14:35
predict what they're going to say before I go there.
2:14:38
There are fewer and fewer of those people in the world,
2:14:42
even though there's a proliferation of more and more voices.
2:14:45
And it's kind of paradoxical, like the form of entertainment
2:14:49
is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. So you're like
2:14:51
a seven second, you know, we're an advertising company. We
2:14:54
do most of the spots that we release, like 15
2:14:56
second spots, six second spots for social, the ones most
2:14:59
people see. And then there's this one form, which is
2:15:03
like long form discussions that are whatever, two hours long.
2:15:08
And the amazing to me is, you know, in a
2:15:10
world where it seems like you can't get people to
2:15:12
pay attention more than, you know, a few seconds, there's
2:15:15
a kind of a hunger for that. So there's like
2:15:17
this form and that's why you see these are getting
2:15:19
more popular obviously have this massive audience and it's and
2:15:22
it's kind of flying in the face of the whole
2:15:25
other trend and i think and i don't know that
2:15:28
it probably has something to do with like who do
2:15:31
i think is authentic and am i actually going to
2:15:33
willing to extend my two hours of my time to
2:15:37
sit there and listen through and and that an argument
2:15:40
that people probably do appreciate and understand conversations that have
2:15:44
context and nuance and where there's like a back and forth.
2:15:47
They're just much more selective about who they're willing to
2:15:50
kind of give that sort of voice to in their life.
2:15:55
Speaker 2: It's also the voice of the public too because when
2:15:57
people start talking about things online and things go viral
2:16:00
online and people just start like saying how great they
2:16:03
love the film or how great this album is or
2:16:05
something like that, It just takes off organically now.
2:16:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that has more weight than anything. If you
2:16:11
feel like somebody else who obviously has no dog in
2:16:14
the fight is going, hey, this is great. You should
2:16:16
see it. I'm the same thing. If I hear somebody
2:16:18
tell me, like, you know, who I respect, yeah, you
2:16:20
got to see that thing. That means more to me
2:16:22
than anything, right? Because I believe that. And so if
2:16:25
the closer you can get to that, which is why
2:16:27
I think the act of, A, like telling the same,
2:16:31
you know, like telling the same story about you should
2:16:33
go see the movie to a bunch of, people with
2:16:36
a certain like limited reach, it's just, it's just not
2:16:39
that efficient, but you have to, because it's like, well,
2:16:41
we sat down with our own interest is Anaka and
2:16:44
talked about the movie, you know, and you kind of
2:16:46
do that ostensibly because it means a little bit more
2:16:49
in that, in that market. But I think ultimately it's,
2:16:53
it's like more and more people see, realize they're being
2:16:55
sold to see through the fucking act and this sort
2:16:58
of bullshit of, they recognize that, you know, you go
2:17:01
out and sell every movie. You know what I mean?
2:17:03
The good and the bad. And then we got to decide, well,
2:17:05
which one and who can you count on? Well, it's
2:17:07
mostly going to be that like the word of mouth,
2:17:09
your friend. And now you can see that person in
2:17:12
your media experience, you know? Yeah.
2:17:14
Speaker 2: And I think it's also we know that when you're
2:17:17
sitting down with extra or this thing, like that's just
2:17:20
their job to sit down with people. They're not doing
2:17:22
it because they want to.
2:17:23
Speaker 1: Right.
2:17:23
Speaker 2: You know, it's like. They got told, go talk to
2:17:26
that person.
2:17:27
Speaker 1: And we got told, go talk to them. So I
2:17:30
go do the ritual and they say the thing they
2:17:32
say and we say the thing we say. And everyone
2:17:35
goes home and says we did our job.
2:17:36
Speaker 2: That's the benefit of an independent podcast is that like
2:17:39
with me, I don't talk to anybody I don't want
2:17:41
to talk to. It's just like I literally do the
2:17:44
whole thing on my phone. I go, oh, yeah, that
2:17:46
sounds cool. And that's it.
2:17:47
Speaker 1: But like that, I think, means a lot. At least
2:17:50
this person is making this choice and I've listened to
2:17:52
it a bunch and I, I actually find myself agreeing
2:17:54
with a lot of the time. So, all right, I'll
2:17:56
give it a shot that, you know, it's exactly.
2:17:58
Speaker 3: I think also like this format, like at least I
2:18:01
know why it, why I started listening to podcasts was because, uh, in,
2:18:07
in the world, like the, the, divisive kind of the
2:18:09
way everybody was talking, these sound bites and all this shit. And, and,
2:18:12
and it was just like the ability to just listen
2:18:15
to human beings talk often who, who had different points
2:18:20
of view, but like had a civil conversation.
2:18:23
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:18:23
Speaker 3: It was like, it was such a welcome thing, you know,
2:18:26
given the, given the kind of the hysterical kind of,
2:18:30
you know, uh, frenzy of, of, of, of, of divisiveness.
2:18:34
That's kind of, it just feels, it's just like, you know, the, the,
2:18:38
It's like if I open my phone and look at
2:18:40
the news, I'm just like, fuck.
2:18:42
Speaker 1: It's like put it down. It's like I feel my
2:18:46
cortisol level go up.
2:18:47
Speaker 3: And to actually hear people, listen to people I know
2:18:50
I don't agree with, but listen to them and just
2:18:53
think about it. You know what I mean? Approach life
2:18:56
with a little bit of humility. Hold on to what
2:18:59
you believe, obviously, but keep listening.
2:19:03
Speaker 2: It's also there's not a lot of opportunities in the
2:19:05
real world to have long conversations with people. So people
2:19:08
are kind of starving for that.
2:19:09
Speaker 1: I know. Isn't it funny that this has become the
2:19:12
shared cultural, like we listen to that podcast and then
2:19:15
actually experience that. And also, why don't people trust the media? Well,
2:19:19
because the media doesn't do that because they compress it.
2:19:22
And because the truth, it's money. Because actually doing that
2:19:25
is not with money. It's just ratings and the perceived
2:19:27
idea that like, Well, if you simplify it or you
2:19:31
position it one way or the other, you engender outrage.
2:19:34
That's simple or just pure one-sided ideas that are simple.
2:19:40
But the news used to be– the idea was, look,
2:19:43
here's the FCC. We're going to let these networks broadcast
2:19:46
their shows and make money on it. But here's the deal.
2:19:48
You've got to give an hour of that and lose
2:19:50
money on that hour to tell the news and try
2:19:52
to tell it objectively. Then it started to be, no,
2:19:54
you've got to make money for that hour too. And
2:19:56
if you're going to make money, that's a different incentive.
2:19:59
than tell the truth or report those or any of
2:20:01
those things. And people try to hybridize them. But at
2:20:05
the end of the day, you're a more successful reporter.
2:20:08
If more people watch you because advertisers pay more and
2:20:11
then they're doing the same thing, looking at their data,
2:20:13
you know, Graham, what are people watching? What kinds of stories? And,
2:20:17
and I think this is simple answers because you're just,
2:20:19
you're making it into a profit game. Those incentives are
2:20:22
not aligned with just trying to get down to like
2:20:25
even reporting basic facts.
2:20:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a weird time. It's like we have
2:20:30
more access to information than ever before, but so much
2:20:32
of it is just horseshit. It's hard to stay balanced.
2:20:38
And I think that's why it's good to listen to
2:20:40
people just talk. And then you recognize the flaws in
2:20:44
their thinking. You feel ego. You feel deception, bullshit. It's true.
2:20:50
Speaker 1: People will reveal themselves. We actually don't need that many
2:20:53
editorialists to be constantly telling us what to think and
2:20:56
how to think. Because people actually have pretty good instincts.
2:20:59
You know, if someone's bullshitting, eventually they'll kind of hang themselves.
2:21:02
Like you said, you'll get that vibe. After a while,
2:21:05
he kind of started repeating his shtick and I kind
2:21:07
of didn't really talk about what I was wondering about.
2:21:10
That's like forming your own judgment.
2:21:13
Speaker 2: Pete Buttigieg actually talked about that being dangerous on podcasts.
2:21:17
He's like, because you go on there and you have
2:21:20
your points, but you'll get revealed later. over the course
2:21:23
of a few hours, like you can only stick to
2:21:26
these lines.
2:21:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. You can only be talking points and bullshit for,
2:21:29
and then, and then what happens is people just like,
2:21:31
there was an art to like, look at how great
2:21:33
that communicator, they stick to the message and they do
2:21:35
their points. Okay. 30 seconds, 60 seconds, but any longer
2:21:39
than that, it just starts to look like a fucking
2:21:41
robot on, you know? And like I said, what we
2:21:44
need to follow through with, you know, like, yeah, no,
2:21:46
I saw you do the same hand gesture in the
2:21:48
same bit with that, but I'm, You know.
2:21:50
Speaker 2: Sometimes you find out they're full of shit just by
2:21:52
having them talk about other things. You know, like tell me,
2:21:55
do you like cooking? You know, like just like, and
2:21:57
then you just see like some concocted.
2:22:00
Speaker 1: They're thinking, what makes me look good about cooking?
2:22:02
Speaker 2: Exactly.
2:22:03
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what, because what would the focus
2:22:05
group say?
2:22:07
Speaker 2: That's exactly it.
2:22:08
Speaker 1: Do I cook or do I not? Does that make
2:22:11
me feminine or does it make me open to cultural? Yeah.
2:22:15
What do you like to cook, man? I don't cook.
2:22:18
Speaker 2: Well, that's the other thing about people that are online
2:22:20
too much is they're so concerned with other people's opinions.
2:22:24
That they don't have enough time to formulate their own.
2:22:28
They're just so concerned with how people are going to
2:22:30
perceive everything you say that you're like handcuffed. You're like
2:22:33
terrified to misspeak.
2:22:35
Speaker 1: Right, right. I think that in general is a real
2:22:38
fucking danger. I mean we were talking the other day.
2:22:40
We were saying about like one of the benefits of
2:22:43
getting older and doing this for a long time is–
2:22:46
you realize nobody really gives a shit as much about
2:22:49
you as you thought. You spend your 20s and 30s
2:22:53
thinking this is really important and then you realize no
2:22:56
one fucking cares. No one actually cares. It's not that
2:23:00
big a deal. Most people are mostly worried about themselves
2:23:03
and their life. There's this illusion that they pay a
2:23:06
passing moment of attention or it's in some story. It's
2:23:09
like you're fucking staring at it because it's about you.
2:23:12
You said that about me. Nobody else really fucking cares. Yeah.
2:23:16
Speaker 2: And if they do, they're usually fucked up. Like something's wrong.
2:23:19
Why are you concentrating on this other person's life?
2:23:21
Speaker 1: That's right.
2:23:21
Speaker 2: You're probably trying to ignore your own bullshit.
2:23:24
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.
2:23:25
Speaker 2: Well, listen, man, your movie's fucking awesome. I've loved so
2:23:29
much of your films over the years. So it's been
2:23:31
really cool to be able to have you guys in
2:23:32
here and talk about this. It's been great. It's been fun.
2:23:35
Speaker 1: Thank you very much.
2:23:35
Speaker 2: Two very normal, nice movie stars. You guys are cool
2:23:40
as fuck.
2:23:40
Speaker 1: Give us a couple more hours. Yeah, exactly.
2:23:42
Speaker 2: I enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed the rip. It's
2:23:45
fucking great. And everybody, go see it.
2:23:47
Speaker 1: It's great.
2:23:48
Speaker 2: I loved it. Thank you.
2:23:49
Speaker 1: Thanks for being here. All right. It's a pleasure. Bye, everybody.