Latest / 2nd City Gridiron / '85 at 40: Gary Fencik discusses the 46 Defense, the Super Bowl Shuffle, and more!

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'85 at 40: Gary Fencik discusses the 46 Defense, the Super Bowl Shuffle, and more! · 2nd City Gridiron

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to 85 at 40.
• 0:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: We are back for another episode and we are excited to do this guest because he is basically the captain of the defense.
• 0:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was the veteran.
• 0:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was the guy behind it all.
• 0:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: He is Gary Fensick, the veteran of that 85 team and a barrington high school alum, which is something we share together.
• 0:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Gary bills Zimmerman.
• 0:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: How are you?
• 0:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're in a well-built, but if single Terry and Hampton were here right now, I don't.
• 0:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you picking me up on my ears or something, but you know, it's great to be a part of that defense and obviously to be part of that team, having grown up and watched the bear as my entire life.
• 0:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know the frustration that fans had had until finally we got through in 85, and hopefully we'll see that in the next couple of years here in Chicago as well.
• 0:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we had Jim Boe covered on unrecently.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he was talking about, we were talking about having all the team back together there before week one.
• 1:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he said that you threw quite a party there, kind of as a reunion there.
• 1:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what was that like?
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm assuming you guys don't get a chance to see each other much 40 years later.
• 1:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: What was it like kind of getting together with a lot of those teammates again?
• 1:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the Chicago Bears actually do a really great job.
• 1:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how many teams, but I don't think it's more than a handful.
• 1:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: having a long night weekend, so if you played for the Chicago Bears, you're invited back it's the first home game and you know they have a dinner the night before the game they're having over 500 people attend that and so you know it's both people in town but a lot of people coming from out of town so
• 1:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: I had a party at my house because the first home game was a money night game and they had the dinner on Sunday.
• 1:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was just wondering, well, people are coming in from the weekend.
• 1:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why not have a party for kind of like the 85 era and that 85 era certainly includes my good friend Doug Plank.
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Gary Jeff Berk is here.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: One thing I've heard you talk about over the years is the famous letter that you penned to George Hallis about trying to keep buddy Ryan as the fans of coordinator.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I know the contents, but one thing it sounds so quaint that you wrote a letter because people don't write letters anymore.
• 2:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: But Hallis was famous for how many letters he wrote.
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: But what gave you the idea and what really sparked this, like I think I can make a difference here if I write George Hallis a letter here.
• 2:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: What was the impetus who helped you just kind of give us some background on that?
• 2:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, actually the key person in that conversation is Alan Page.
• 2:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so Alan played up in Minnesota the last couple of years he came down in Chicago to conclude his great Hall of Fame career.
• 2:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: But he had come with Buddy Ryan and so
• 2:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: He is really the one who put it into my, you know, brain about hey, if you guys don't do something, they're going to get rid of this entire coaching staff to include the defensive players and I thought about it.
• 3:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, well, what can you do?
• 3:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, well, you can write a letter.
• 3:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I should say, Alan was retiring.
• 3:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he knew that he was going to have no influence on the decision of who would be the next coaches.
• 3:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I wrote the letter.
• 3:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting that you say.
• 3:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we didn't have computers.
• 3:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't have cell phones, really.
• 3:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't have spell check.
• 3:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I spelled one wrong word, Moral.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I forgot the E.
• 3:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I covered my butt and had all the defensive players sign it with me.
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then George Hall is actually showed up at a practice and said, and we've already broken up offensively and defensively, he told our coaches to take a hike and said, I've never gotten a letter like this.
• 3:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And your coaches will be back next year.
• 3:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we knew that Neil Armstrong and the rest of the coaching staff there hadn't been any of the season made by the
• 4:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: owners of the bears, but when that decision was made, buddy and the defensive coaches kept their jobs and everybody else left.
• 4:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so Mike Dittgen, people don't really appreciate this, Mike Dittgen had to accept the fact that his defensive coordinator or someone he didn't know.
• 4:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that made for an interesting dynamic, and I think a lot of the documentaries and everything have had some really, maybe.
• 4:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 4:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have discussed that kind of that offense versus the defense mentality, but what was it specifically about buddy and the coaching staff that, you know,
• 4:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: that you were sitting there saying this coaching staff on the defensive side of the ball needs to stay together.
• 4:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Was it the, was it the scheme?
• 4:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Was it the 46 scheme?
• 4:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Was it more about their, their leadership?
• 4:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because we see how it can work.
• 4:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously, you guys won the Super Bowl in 85.
• 4:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: The Bears didn't have as much success in 2018, but holding over Vic Fangeo was a huge key to the success that Matt Nagy had in his first year.
• 5:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's a combination of both, you know, clearly it's leadership, but it's also scheme and and feeling that you have the right players to fit this scheme and that you're making progress.
• 5:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, we're looking at today's
• 5:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: team and you know it's going to take a while they have free agency go oh those are good but they haven't worked together as a unit and as much as you might say you can get that done during preseason it really isn't until you get into the season you start to see you know what needs to be improved upon so I think in that last year with an 80 what 82 that would have been.
• 5:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: that we started to see the progress.
• 5:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, we started to get really better players.
• 5:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Dan Hampton, the day that he was drafted, he changed the entire defense.
• 5:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think he changed the entire team.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: He was unstoppable, and he was such an incredible addition to the defense and to the front four.
• 6:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, you got single theory.
• 6:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then Otis and Wilbur and Alher, all these guys were first-round draft choices or second-round draft choices.
• 6:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so you have to give a lot of credit to the scouting and to the general manager of building that team.
• 6:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, from day one, we had Walter Peyton.
• 6:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then it's just a matter of can you complement players so that we can take advantage of an unbelievable talent.
• 6:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that it's that combination of talent, scheme, and just feeling like we are starting to really come together as a unit.
• 6:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm glad I wrote the letter.
• 6:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: George Hall was wrote a letter back to me and said he had never gotten a letter like that.
• 6:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I've got that down in my little.
• 6:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Trophy Room.
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: uh... when we had the party here a couple of weeks ago hampton and uh... single territory they've seen that letter before but i also framed uh... the last pages of the three-plus games that we had in eighty five to include the superbowl that would be on friday short yardage you know third down in goal line defense is and also but he would write like a half a page summary of what you need to do in order to win the game
• 7:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he looked back at it 40 years later, he kind of laughed at somewhat simple.
• 7:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of tackle, tackle, tackle.
• 7:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we were completely comfortable with the system, and completely trusted all of our coaches, but in particular, buddy Ryan and his staff.
• 7:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let me follow up on 40, 60 events because it's such an interesting name.
• 7:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Those that know the history know what it's name about, I'd love to you to talk a little bit about that.
• 7:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not what a lot of football people would just think when you hear two numbers put together like that.
• 7:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: But how do you describe it?
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: In terms of the physicality, from just like a schematic standpoint, what does it really stand for?
• 8:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it makes, I believe the first time we ever ran,
• 8:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we were in our last year.
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, before the coaching change and, you know, it was pretty clear that
• 8:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: in our coaches.
• 8:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: We weren't playing well.
• 8:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Our record was in going to save the coaches.
• 8:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so buddy introduced that.
• 8:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it really was a roll-up, almost an eight-man front.
• 8:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: He got the number 46 was Doug Plank, our free safety.
• 8:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: He would move up and become in an essence and another linebacker.
• 8:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so the key was that it was almost impossible to get double teams
• 8:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: because we just had more numbers up front.
• 8:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that made the quarterback in a passing situation have to make a really quick decision.
• 8:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is before you had as a normal formation three and four wide outs.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And today, I think it would be much more difficult to run the 46, but I've asked Leslie Frazier and other people, you know,
• 9:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ron Rivera, who were coaches in the NFL until recently, and they said, yeah, there's still some element of 46, but the make a quick decision, you know, don't allow anybody to get double team and someone's going to come free and you you need to make that play if you're the free man.
• 9:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: uh... was you know unique at that time i mean for people who are familiar the forty six will bear martial who was our weak side line back with line up with orders will send on the strong side and so they knew that that tied in had to take one of them and if there was an aback on that side of the ball it was on the other side of the court of act there is no way that if they were passing that one of those two guys wasn't going to get a direct hit
• 9:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: on the quarterback.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, if you get inexperienced or young quarterbacks started making some almost panic decisions because you could see as you were under center that if they blitzed, you weren't going to be able to protect.
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me, let me move into the kind of the start of the season here, because, because one thing that doesn't really get talked about anymore is your safety mate in Dave Duerson, because previously you had Todd Bell, though, the last couple of years, and Todd Bell was an excellent player.
• 10:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was all pro.
• 10:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was all pro in 1984.
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was an outstanding player.
• 10:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Had a contract dispute decided to sit out the season.
• 10:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Dave Dorson, who had been, I don't know exactly what his role was.
• 10:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: The first couple of season, but he was not obviously a starter.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: He had just played in a sub roll.
• 10:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Him stepping in and that kind of changed for you at the safety position.
• 10:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: How confident were you in Dave Dorson?
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Was there any concerns of not having
• 11:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Todd Bell really changed the defense in one play the previous year.
• 11:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: We lost 23 to nothing in the NFC championship game, McMahon didn't play.
• 11:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the game before that, we beat Washington, the Redskins in Washington, and there was one play.
• 11:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was in the first half, probably the first quarter, where Todd Bell hit on a swing pass, they're running back, and I mean, it just was like a bell that just awakened the entire defense, and the rest of the game we played great, and so everyone on the defense, everyone on the team knew how,
• 11:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: not just good, but potentially great.
• 11:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Todd Bell was coming into his own.
• 11:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, you mentioned that Dave Doorson then replaced Todd because Todd held out.
• 11:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is before free agency.
• 11:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: He had no leverage whatsoever.
• 11:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And Al Harris, who was a first-round draft choice, also held out in his backup Wilbur Martian.
• 12:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, there are a lot of great players, call a famous on our side of the defense, but there was no one who was a physical tank of Wilber Marshall.
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, those two guys held out, and their backups became all pros, and, you know, we're instrumental to the success we had in 85 and afterwards, we went to management, to the ownership on several occasions and said, you know, this is our chance to get to the Super Bowl and we need all hands on deck.
• 12:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they said, look, we're trying.
• 12:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: We understand, but we're as far as we can go.
• 12:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so in an era where you had no leverage, those two guys missed out on the entire season.
• 12:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we were fortunate if Dave or any of those guys had gotten hurt, it weirdly would have been to the detriment of the overall talent of the defense in 85.
• 13:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, obviously, just an overall stacked defense with talent everywhere.
• 13:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: And you mentioned earlier about general management.
• 13:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one guy that doesn't get talked about enough is Jim Finx, who would not have been with a team at that time.
• 13:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you talk about Jim Finx's role in building up this roster?
• 13:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, sure.
• 13:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Jim was our general manager and then left.
• 13:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think what to go to the cubs.
• 13:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: But he didn't have any say on, I think,
• 13:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: who was going to be the next head coach because he wouldn't have picked Mike Dittga.
• 13:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's really amazing with the exception of a great coach Harmoff with the Ravens today.
• 13:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody's an offensive or defensive coordinator and it certainly was a case 40 years ago and so for Dittga to be picked who was a special teams coach with the Dallas Cowboys was really unusual.
• 13:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then he had to accept that he wasn't picking his defense of coordinators.
• 14:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you just look at those decisions and how unusual they were relative to everything else in the NFL, yeah, it was an experiment that worked out great.
• 14:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it clearly did.
• 14:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to ask you about the secondary overall, because, you know, as you were talking about the 46 defense, there really made me thinking about the secondary because the pressure that that seven brings is all you hear about, but if you're going to bring that kind of pressure, if you're going to bring more than five guys at a time five six seven guys, what, you know, the kitchen sink, whatever buddy wanted to throw out of.
• 14:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: that puts a lot of pressure on the corner backs and on you guys to make sure you guys are tight with those guys and that they don't have those quick outlets to get the ball out and get some you know seven eight yards and make the pressure you know make make buddy have to take the pressure off.
• 14:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what was the key kind of for you guys in the secondary to make sure that that you guys were tight and able to do the kind of things you needed to do so buddy could bring the pressure up front.
• 15:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, it's all about trust.
• 15:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's no different today, you know, cornerbacks in the NFL.
• 15:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
• 15:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you're going against world class athletes, guys.
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we either be big and fast or just quick.
• 15:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, it's a passing game today.
• 15:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: You need really good cornerbacks.
• 15:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you need a good slot corner as well.
• 15:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we had all of that.
• 15:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Mike Richardson, on a right side Leslie Frazier on the left, we're really, really good corners.
• 15:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: but he relied upon them, but yeah, that was the key.
• 15:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when you're running, we didn't run all blitzes.
• 15:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Most of it was kind of some type of the zone or some type of combination of a man's own.
• 15:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you've got 78,000 people screaming and we had enough flexibility where,
• 15:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: He wouldn't be if you were watching film that everybody was dropping back and was zoned or everybody's pressing because it's man.
• 15:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: We had flexibility for safety on the right-hand side to make it called differently than maybe the safety with the corner and left-hand side and what I mean by that.
• 16:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: is that if you're playing man, it isn't, oh, I'm going to line up five yards off the line of scrimmage.
• 16:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have three options.
• 16:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: You feel that you can bump and run this guy all day long, so that would be one call that the corner would.
• 16:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: where I would call and he would shake me off.
• 16:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's almost like a catcher shaking off a pitcher on what they want to pitch.
• 16:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it gave you flexibility, because there's no sense if you really don't think.
• 16:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: You have an all-pro-wide receiver and he's quick to try to bump and run that is going to be really difficult.
• 16:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if he escapes from the line of scrimmage, you could be maybe a big play.
• 16:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you had options, maybe we play in and out, maybe you bump and I cover you deep or maybe you bump and filter back and then we play in and out there and on the other side of the field it would be completely different but it was all a buddy gave you that flexibility and that kind of gets back to you know talking about buddy Ryan and that he really trusted.
• 17:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: you to make those calls.
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't, you don't do this.
• 17:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, no, you have that flexibility and, you know, hopefully use it wisely.
• 17:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, speaking of Buddy Ryan's game planning, when we talked to Jim Boe Covert about the game plan against the dolphins, that was a bit of, he's talked about over the years where he, you know, Buddy came up to Jim Boe and said, we're gonna, we're gonna blitz your buddies and don't do that, he's gonna burn you.
• 17:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: And obviously, you know, that happened a little bit against Marino, do you think a different game plan would have been more successful if you had to play them in the Super Bowl if that would have played out that way?
• 17:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: Would you have gone in with a different game plan?
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think so, definitely, I don't think, I mean, I have to take a step back and go away in a minute.
• 17:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: The two previous games, we beat the Dallas Cobb, he's 44 to nothing, and then we beat the Atlanta Falcons 36 to nothing.
• 18:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then people forget, oh, Jim, Jim McMahon was injured.
• 18:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he didn't play until the final couple plays because C. Fuller got injured.
• 18:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're missing your starting quarterback.
• 18:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're playing against a team that had lost the Super Bowl to the 49ers, the year before, had an all pro quarterback and yeah, we didn't really play well in the first half.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: We played pretty poorly to be honest.
• 18:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we would play a lot more nickel instead of they really beat us on some blitzers where we had just, you know, our normal defense end.
• 18:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you've got three wide receivers and, you know, you've got me or a
• 18:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: a lineback or trying to cover a wide receiver.
• 18:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a mismatch from the from the go get.
• 18:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I'm sure we would have done things differently.
• 18:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Having said that.
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: If we had Jim McMahon, I think the offense would have played better as well.
• 18:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm not trying to knock Steve Fuller, but hey, it's a quarterback league and it wasn't any different back then.
• 19:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: We were ready for him in 85.
• 19:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think we played like the fourth game of the year.
• 19:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we came back victorious on a road game.
• 19:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was really clear that we were a much better team and we had Jim and his our quarterback.
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you bring up that, and I don't know if you would like to switch, if we'd like to Yes.
• 19:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 19:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 19:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was the first time he came in.
• 19:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, this this this question was going to be out of left field, but you transition perfectly into it because as a kid, I watched the NFL films story of the 85 bears probably 150 times.
• 19:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely love that VHS tape and watch it all the time.
• 19:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there was a clip in Buddy Ryan and they were talking about William Perry.
• 19:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: When he came into the league, obviously that 85 was his rookie season in training camp.
• 19:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there are clips in there of him not be able to pull ups and kind of hoffin and puffin in practice and everything.
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Buddy Ryan was talking about how.
• 20:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: that him being as big as he was and buddy, it's humiliating that he was out of shape, kind of frustrated the defense.
• 20:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to, I'm curious about William Perry and that dynamic of that defense of lineup front because Mike Hartnstein had been there and I don't know he was still there but you know, Perry comes in Hampton bumps to the outside.
• 20:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: What was that like, was there any issues with Perry coming in about maybe not being in shape and Hartnstein getting bummed to the bench?
• 20:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Was there any issues there with the defense kind of how that was handled by buddy?
• 20:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I just think you trust your coaches and we trusted Buddy's judgment.
• 20:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, you know, I think he got on William, because William Perry, if he had worked out harder, he would have doubled the number of years that he played in the NFL.
• 20:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: But even at, and I have no idea, honestly, what William actually weighed, but he had to, you know, he was well over 300 and he's six two and he could still dunk a basketball.
• 21:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and I've saw it, and it wasn't once.
• 21:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so you're like, this guy is an incredible athlete.
• 21:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he was really just a really good kid.
• 21:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, everybody liked him.
• 21:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it'd be different if you're like, wow, this guy's getting inserted and he really isn't good enough, but he was so disruptive.
• 21:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was a really great addition.
• 21:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Plus, you know what, I think that people really underestimate.
• 21:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's nice to have backups, you know.
• 21:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't like he was playing every series, but he made really important contributions.
• 21:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, once he started running the ball, you know, you ran the first time in the San Francisco game and then, you know, the block he made, I think on George Gumby and was at a Monday night game or something on goal line and drove him,
• 21:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: It looked like me that he was hitting me as hard as he could he weighed 150 pounds more.
• 22:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that that just added to the aura of the defense.
• 22:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, William earned it.
• 22:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he certainly didn't act cocky in any way.
• 22:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was just another cock to the wheel for the defense.
• 22:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Gary, I think when a lot of us look back on this particular defense, the physicality really sticks out and just how you guys seem to relish the physicality, the big hits, the tackles and I know that you've made your career in finance and I'm wondering as you watched today's game, if you've ever gone back and tried to calculate just what the fines would be that you guys would have racked up with all of these big hits on quarterbacks and wide receiver's over the middle and just how much the game has changed in the in the four decades since.
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's changed, but, you know, that's so different than if I was looking back when we were playing at, you know, World War Two players.
• 22:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, we're all, you guys are wearing helmets now.
• 22:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so the game is always progressing.
• 22:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, one thing that gets me that, you know, most people don't realize and said, you can't, as a defensive back.
• 23:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: If there's a pulling guard or tackle and they come out that way, you can no longer cut them.
• 23:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a penalty.
• 23:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they weigh 350 pounds in the DB is way 200.
• 23:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's no way that unless you go low, that you're going to have any leverage to be able to stand up and maybe make a tackle behind them.
• 23:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So in every way, it's gotten easier for the offense.
• 23:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: The NFL clearly wants points.
• 23:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's clearly more of a passing game.
• 23:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: But to me, it's just a natural progression.
• 23:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, could you still play today who knows who cares who it doesn't really matter?
• 23:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just say to most people and you're mentioning fines.
• 23:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Doug and I would be playing for nothing, but if you compare what we were making, compared to what they're playing and getting paid today, we were playing for nothing.
• 24:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it doesn't really change.
• 24:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I think it's almost an obligatory question, but I have to ask you, and that is obviously the Super Bowl shuffle, and you guys deciding to do that, and of course doing that in the middle of the season, of course, it comes out right before the Miami game, and my father, who was about 50 years old at the time, as you can imagine, was one of those fans who just came out and was, oh man, they're going to blow it now, they're they're they're too kind.
• 24:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're too confident, you know, so so I know there was some pushback by some of the fan base.
• 24:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, you know, I was a kid at the time.
• 24:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had the whole song memorized.
• 24:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: We love this song, but you know, there was a lot of youth on that team, a lot of confidence, a lot of brashness.
• 24:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to get the perspective of you because one, you participated in that and you were about a nine, ten year veteran at that time.
• 24:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: What when when you were approached about doing something like this, what was your initial thought?
• 24:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: and about doing it in the middle of the season and participating in it.
• 24:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Bill, I'm so glad you brought it up because, you know, to this day, and you can look at my words, I have, there's no reference to Super Bowl.
• 25:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: None.
• 25:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't look at anybody else, it's really gallant organized this, and I thought, hey, as a good gesture, I'll do it.
• 25:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: We had no idea that there was going to be a video requirement.
• 25:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: We signed the contract, got ripped off, signed that on the plane down to the Super Bowl.
• 25:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, so Willie said here, here's the words, you can change anything you want.
• 25:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't really talk to anybody about it.
• 25:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden they're like, well, we have to do a video, it's like, no, we don't have to do anything, and we don't do anything in the video, of course, that pay after we lost the only game of the season.
• 25:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: like Hampton wouldn't do it and make Michael didn't do it.
• 25:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's stupid and you know, so you're like, well, you don't want to have any bulletin forward material.
• 26:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so if anything in mine had been super bullshuffle, I'd go, hey, there's no way I'm doing this.
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm from Chicago.
• 26:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: They haven't wanted nobody's want anything since 63.
• 26:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: and but I did it and I thought okay the gesture with Willie and kind of moved on all then it started you know all the sudden I start hearing oh it's called Super Bowl shuffle which by the way the NFL would sue you today right copyright you know
• 26:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, dude, we asked the bears if we could wear our jerseys.
• 26:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: No.
• 26:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was a really kind of a naive time, right?
• 26:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, who cares what you do?
• 26:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, did it get me to say this?
• 26:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't care what you guys do when you're not on the field.
• 26:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: When you're on the field, you're a Chicago bear.
• 26:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you better act and play like a Chicago bear.
• 26:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't care what you guys do afterwards.
• 26:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, so it's a little different.
• 26:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I will tell you, I just got an email about a month ago.
• 26:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: NFL films is doing something with HBO or something like that and you know they have these 30 on 30s which were you know we clearly were one of them now they're doing a new one they're only going to do they're going to do a 40 minute documentary and the email they said hey we'd like to do an interview with you you know the the first one we're doing which is showing up in November
• 27:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: is a Super Bowl shuffle.
• 27:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I go no way.
• 27:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I had no way talking about the Super Bowl shuffle.
• 27:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they got to know it.
• 27:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in this little email, this woman said, you don't really appreciate what a change that was for the entire NFL that all of a sudden, it wasn't just following these players on the field, but now you're seeing them off the field.
• 27:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they said, you guys were like it or not,
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, I had no idea, I mean, she's like, you kidding me, I got, I got my gold record downstairs.
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we want to platinum video, but it got out of control.
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it's like, if I could really ask me to do it again, he wants to do something.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I got it with it.
• 28:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I had 40 years of, I can't sing, I can't dance.
• 28:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't want to, but even my son, when I checked
• 28:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's probably saving me from more embarrassment.
• 28:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we're seeing us that people will say, well, at least you were a little better singer and dancer than Steve Fuller.
• 28:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's kind of damming me because there are only two white guys in the front line.
• 28:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you steamed didn't finish the game in Miami, but we had to do the video downtown.
• 28:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he was on crutches.
• 28:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: There you go, hey Steve, you can't use the crutches and won't look good.
• 28:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you go back and look at Steve, he's got one leg, he's going to be eating it out, yeah, and we're like, wow, so I'm a better dancer with a one-legged, maimed, and quarterback.
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's quite the legacy Gary, and I actually have a question about legacy.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned the alumni groups, the dinners, and I'm really curious, you know, Dicco was on the 63 team, you know, George Hall, you know, you were in this very interesting time.
• 29:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, what were some of your connections to some of the older legends, and some of these guys from the 63 team, and maybe before that, that you had an opportunity to meet and talk to.
• 29:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know what, um, I might want to, I'm, I'm in the sun.
• 29:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to switch this a little bit.
• 29:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully, it's not going to hurt you to that.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the answer your question.
• 29:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Those, when they had the early, I mean, the 63 guys were really a wonderful group of men and we would see them, but only occasionally.
• 29:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, people don't go up to Alice Hall or the locker rooms unless they're invited.
• 29:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I would see, and got to know some of them.
• 30:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, obviously, get to being one of them.
• 30:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, some of the offensive linemen,
• 30:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I remember, I was like, I was nine years old.
• 30:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that when you're nine or 10, that's kind of when you get hooked.
• 30:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm a white socks man.
• 30:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I remember when they won the World Series, I said, I'm going to be happy the rest of my life.
• 30:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm in the rest of my life because it's going to be a long while before the white socks are going to get.
• 30:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, Johnny Morris, who just turned 90,
• 30:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, those guys, you would see some of them, but I knew them as kind of a kid.
• 30:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And really, I think probably embrace them a little bit more.
• 30:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, a lot of them are in the Chicago area, or were in the Chicago area.
• 30:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, you know, they're going where we're going and that is people are starting to pass away.
• 30:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, certainly appreciated the contribution they made.
• 31:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure in some way,
• 31:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure I should say this, but I'm sure it's a little difficult for them knowing that they were world champions in 1963.
• 31:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I know they had a lot of accolades, but the 85 team being a Super Bowl team, it just that Clips is anything almost before, whether you're a bear or a packer or anything like that.
• 31:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I took my son, we as a kid, I got this call and I thought it was a prank.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: There was something called the Legends of Lamarty, and that the bears are playing up there.
• 31:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: The first game of the year, and this woman said, we'd like to see if you would participate in this autograph session.
• 31:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, okay, I'll call you back.
• 31:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was a joke.
• 31:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I call him next day and it was legit.
• 31:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I took my son and we did an autograph session with Bart Star and all of those stars with the great teams, with Paul Horning, with the Green Bay Packers.
• 32:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they had Gale Serres.
• 32:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, wow, this is unbelievable.
• 32:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Dent, and I, where the other two guys came up, it was really fantastic.
• 32:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: But even today, and I did an autograph session yesterday in Gurney, the people, the line just wouldn't end.
• 32:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I said, we got to stop this.
• 32:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll do another 15 minutes, but I appreciate the bare fence.
• 32:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're still iconic at this point.
• 32:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of remember like there's something like I'll ask someone do you know what this poster was from and they go I think it was the shell gas stations and you're right if you got a filled up they gave you a poster a bug plant or Gary Fensick and you know I you look and sometimes I see things that I don't I've never seen and I've had some fans make some reprints of something that I don't know where they got it or how they got it but
• 33:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: it's it's really unique and you know certainly brings back a lot of great memories for a lot of people is a really really great time to to be in Chicago and to to be following a team that was fun I mean we had so many legitimate characters that weren't manufactured didn't have you know hey we're gonna you know you got to fit in like this
• 33:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: But everybody, I mean, the Lyme and we're doing their posters and it was just a lot of fun, but only because at the end of the day, we won.
• 33:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we had lost that Super Bowl shuffle would have been in our face for the rest of my life.
• 33:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I really feel bad for
• 33:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the guys, you know, in the what the 06 Super Bowl team that lost and Mike Brown, when they had that 100th anniversary of the virus and we all got, we had this unbelievable panel of safety, Mark here, your Doug Plank, Todd Bell might have been there, but it was great, but Mike Brown brought to the crowds attention that he was injured and couldn't play
• 34:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: biggest game of your life and yeah, you can't play it.
• 34:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it would be unbelievably hard.
• 34:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Leslie Frazier, obviously, in that couple of days, I thought Buddy was going to beat up if he could our special teams coach because that was a unnecessary play.
• 34:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: trick play one we're up by 30 points and Leslie blue is knee out and never really recovered not he really yeah he really didn't that's what you gave him he was such a gifted corner back to
• 35:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, really talented and he's he's expected to join us here in the next couple of weeks on this.
• 35:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
• 35:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Last one for you, Gary.
• 35:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have to ask, you know, in your mind, was the 85 bears and I know it's hard to compare ears, but was it the best single season football team of all time?
• 35:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what was it was it was it the gym McMahon injuries?
• 35:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: What was it that prevented this team from being able to win more than one super moment?
• 35:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe I'll, I do think the second question you ask is if we had had Jim healthy in 86 confident we could have gone to the Super Bowl again, but you know, bringing in and I, I hate to say because I, I don't want to disparage Doug flutty, but anybody coming in.
• 35:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: at the end of a season and not knowing the offense or the new onces or anything like that, it just wasn't fair.
• 36:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, we didn't have Jim, it was a close game we lost.
• 36:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then in 87, which was my last year, we had the strike.
• 36:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that strike really had a negative impact on the team.
• 36:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: because did God basically was supporting the scabs and nothing against those scabs either.
• 36:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they wanted to play in the NFL, I get it.
• 36:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it just led to when we came back, we weren't the same team.
• 36:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And again, we played, we didn't play great game, but I just think that all of the things,
• 36:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: decades later that you realize how important they were to get to this opportunity to for one time in your life to say you're the best.
• 36:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It just wasn't there in those next two seasons, but credit the bearers.
• 37:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: My first year out, which was 1988, they lost the 49ers at home in the NFC Championship game.
• 37:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, even though there were ifs and buts, those four years and five years, were an unbelievable period of time.
• 37:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not as great as the bulls.
• 37:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of similar to the black ox, but you had, you know, you had a young team which you talked about earlier Bill, it was a young team and you were filling in and you still had the opportunity.
• 37:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: to achieve some really great team things.
• 37:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it also shows you how fortunate you have to be.
• 37:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: It isn't just luck.
• 37:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: It isn't just having good offense or defense.
• 37:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's staying healthy and then getting some breaks.
• 37:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I just think that those last couple years, we missed out on that.
• 37:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then it makes you realize how fortunate you really were in 85 that everything came together,
• 38:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: even though we overcame Todd not being at strong safety and not having alharris.
• 38:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there he is, Gary Fensick, free safety of the Chicago Bears in 1985.
• 38:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: They call him the hitman, but he doesn't know what they mean.
• 38:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Gary, thanks for reminiscing with it.
• 38:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Really enjoyed it and best of luck moving.
• 38:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Great.
• 38:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, thanks so much.
• 38:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Take care.
• 38:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: That is 85 at 40.
• 38:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was Gary Fensick, Bill Zimmerman, Jeff Burkis.
• 38:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you all so much for joining us.
• 38:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next time, Adios.