Latest / The You Project / #2232 What Are Things Worth? - Bobby Cappuccio

Transcript

#2232 What Are Things Worth? - Bobby Cappuccio · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, good day, team.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: It's our young Bobby and old Harps. And we are
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: completely TIFF-less. We're TIFF-less. There is no TIFF to be seen.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: There's not a TIFF in sight. There's not a TIFF
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: to be heard. We are 100% organic, certified TIFF-less today.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: But we will do our best, won't we, TIFF? I mean,
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: won't we, Bobby? Won't we, Bobby?
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I just want to remind you we are, in fact, TIFF-less.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: So between the two of us, like, we don't have
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: a TIFF. So this is going to be a little
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: bit difficult emotionally, mostly.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: All right. Well, we'll do what we can. We'll try
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: and keep our composure. We'll try and keep our shit
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: together as we move forward. You and I, uh, Oh, firstly,
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: how are you? I should be, I should do that.
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Are you all right?
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: How was work?
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: How's your beautiful wife?
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: How's the country that you live in, which seems to
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: be going to hell in a wheelbarrow, whatever that means.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm trying to avoid all news. I don't know
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: what's going on outside my immediate neighborhood and organization. But
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: I hate to say this. I can't believe this is
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: coming out of my mouth because this is one of
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: those irritating responses. But busy. Things are extremely busy at
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: the moment.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: But good busy or bad busy? Like in the middle
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: of busy.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: I like what I'm doing. I like what I'm doing.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: What I'm doing is going to be utilized to contribute
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: to people in live audiences or webinars. So it's being
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: put to use. It's not like a project. Like, oh, wow,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I wonder if anybody ever benefits from this. So the
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: benefit is really clear. So that's exciting. It's just, oh,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: it's really busy. I'm working on probably 10 different things
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: right now. And I was working on one thing all day.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: I hardly put a dent in it. And I picked
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: my head up, I think, for like 10 minutes, not
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: counting meetings. So, yeah, just really busy. What's going on
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: in the U Project world with you?
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: I want to ask you one question before we do that.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: We're definitely going to use what just happened in the
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: last 20 seconds as a reel.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: So Melissa or Tiff, with.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Bobby just rubbing his eyes with his jacket for 20 seconds,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: if you could get that up, that'd be great.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Just for me, I thought it was funny. How do you,
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: like you go, I'm really busy.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Do you have like a busy slash productive correlation? Like
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: busy is good. Busy is not good if it's busy,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: unproductive or busy, inefficient, and then you're just busy. But
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: how do you, how do you close the gap or
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: how do you, you know, not ensure, but do the
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: best that you can to ensure that you're being productive
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: and effective and efficient in the middle of the busyness? Yeah.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: I know that I'm not like a octopus on rollerblades,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of motion, but no direction when things are
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: coming to fruition. Every week, for example, I have an
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: intensive multi-hour conversation with my coaches and we take a
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: look at what's happening, keeping the names and details out
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: for confidentiality. But we talk about things as if it
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: was a general case study. And then they'll come back.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Can I just interrupt? Sorry.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: Just to clear for our listeners.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Sorry, listeners for fucking that up. But so when you
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: say with my coaches, you are talking about people that
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: work under you, under your purview, within your purview that
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: are coaches that you oversee. Is that correct?
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: They don't work under me. I don't think anybody actually
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: works for me, but I'm a lead coach. I, do
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: their learning and their development.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: So you work alongside them, but you support them and
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: help them.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Yep. Yes.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: I think that's a better description. I like that description
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: of the relationship better. It's my job to support them,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: to create the environment, the training and the development to
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: help them succeed so they can help other people succeed.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: And so do you go into that meeting with.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: A clear plan or you just go in with an
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: open slate mind and just go, well, let's just see
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: what happens. Let's just see where everyone's at because you
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: can't plan for what you don't know is coming anyway.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: So what's your approach?
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: I feel like the more I walk in with a plan,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: the less we're going to accomplish. I mean, the more
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: expeditious we'll be, we'll be far more efficient, but we'll
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: be less effective because you said it, you don't know
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: what they're bringing in to the meeting. And they don't
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: even know until we start talking about it because just
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: very much like their clients, sometimes the issue isn't the issue.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: And by exploring it and dissecting it and workshopping it,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: it's like, oh, that's why that happened from my end.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: I get that now. So what we do is we
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: take a look at different case studies and we explore
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: three different variables one what is the very best thing
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: that's happening what have been your massive wins things have
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: surprised you that you're really proud of within your caseload
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: this week what are the challenges that's something else like
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: what's what are you really struggling with or who And
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: then there's what surprised you, what came up that was
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: completely unexpected for you. And sometimes what's most surprising touches
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: upon what the best thing was that week. And sometimes
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: it encourages upon why that week was particularly challenging within
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: certain sessions. So that's about as structured as we get.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: And we let the conversation evolve in the way it
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: wants to evolve.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: You and I were chatting, thank you for that.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: You and I were chatting before we went live about
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: what things are worth, like what is something worth and
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: not what does it cost necessarily, or what is the price,
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: but what is it actually worth? Because price cost and
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: worth or perceived worth or whatever, they're not exactly the
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: same thing. And what makes that thing that's worth 5x,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: worth 5x? Is it the design of the thing? Is
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: it the practicality of the thing, the way that it works?
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Is the assistance or the reduction of stress that it
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: provides in the life? Or is it like a social
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: kind of badge where if you have that, now you're
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: more seen, more popular, it's some kind of advantage? And
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: I'm coaching a lady at the moment, I can't say
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: too much because people could figure out who she is
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: quite quickly. But anyway, she is a really good coach
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: in the gym space. So primarily women and primarily strength,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: but she is a world-class trainer. She would be in
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: the top 1% of coaches slash trainers in Australia, in
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: my opinion, and I've seen many. but I believe she
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: doesn't charge enough. We've been talking about her career and
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: her business development and what the next one to.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: Five years might look like.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: She's got all of these ideas, but this continual stumbling
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: block is just how.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: Little she thinks she's worth.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: It's like, wow, If I were you, I don't mean
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: if I was me in your shoes, I mean if
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: I were you. Like if I'd done, because she's got
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: quite a significant athletic and high-performance background that's significant and
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: internationally renowned, right? So she's currently charging, let's just say, 2x,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: and I think at least she's worth 4x, maybe 5x.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: And I was talking about her.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: When I started. This was not actually yesterday, the day before.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: I said, I get it.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: I get it. When I first started personal training, I
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: was working on a gym floor and there were no
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: personal trainers. There was no course. There was no qualification.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: There was no insurance. There were no facilities. It didn't
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: exist in 1986, 40 years ago in the Australian fitness landscape.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: And So I just started working with one bloke who
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: asked me if I would actually take him through his
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: workout three times a week. And I was earning, I've
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: told this once or twice on the show, so apologies,
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: but I was earning $ 12 an hour on the gym floor.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: And I'd been earning a version of that for about,
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: you know, by this stage, 86, I'm 23. So I've
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: been earning a version of that for five years. And
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: I'm working three nights a week in pubs, getting punched
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: in the face. And I'm also earning $ 12 a maybe
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: $ 13 at night for that. And so I had this
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: idea of what I am worth. And it was based
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: on consistent reinforcement of, I do this thing and this
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: is the money that I get. And other people who
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: work around me doing similar stuff, that is the money
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: they get. So this is what this task or this
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: role or this capacity is worth. It's worth $ 12 or
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: $ 13 an hour. And then this guy, Max, came in
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: and he said, I want you to train me three
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: days a week. And we were talking and I thought, oh,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: here's an opportunity to And I thought I might chat.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: He wanted to know how much it would cost for
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: three one-hour sessions. And I went, well, three times 12
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: is 36, but I should make some more dough. So
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself, $ 50 is good because it's
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: kind of $ 17- ish an hour, which.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: Is way more than 12.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: And in some rare moment of courage, Bobby, I said $ 100.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: And as it was coming out of my mouth, I
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: regretted it. And I went, I just fucked myself up.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Nobody's going to agree to $ 100 for three workouts, which
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: is $ 33 an hour, give or take, 40 years ago.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: He goes, great, can we start tomorrow? I want to
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: get going straight away. I was so mesmerized or so
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: distracted with the fact that he said yes that And
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: I couldn't comprehend the fact that some bloke, I mean,
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: not only was, I think I could have said 150
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: and he would have said yes, but I'm like, how
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: does this guy think I'm more than I think I'm
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: worth more than I think? And so that kind of,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: that set me on a path over the years where
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: trying to understand like what I think of me and
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: what I think I'm worth and I'm not talking here emotionally.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not talking about as a human being. Am I
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: a good person? Am I a bad person? I'm speaking
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: purely business here and career and commercial value and perceived value.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: I see that all the time where there are whatever
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: it is, whether or not they are buskers or they're
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: trainers or they're corporate speakers or they're masseurs or myotherapists
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: or physiotherapists and they have their own business that just
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: don't value themselves. And so because they think they're not
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: worth much, they create that energy and then people just
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: buy into that.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: Has that ever been something that's occupied your mind?
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: Well, for how many decades I trained trainers and salespeople.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: I would say, yes, that has rented quite a bit
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: of space in my head. And it's a really interesting conversation, Craig.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: And it's a very important one, I think, not just
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: for trainers, but for anybody doing absolutely anything. And it's complicated,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: and then it's not. What's interesting is we've all had
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: those stories about when we were first starting out. Because
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: why would you be confident in what you're worth when
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: you're first starting out? That's a little bit delusional. You
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: don't have a track record to build a body of
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: evidence to support your value yet, which is OK. Because value,
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: like quality, is defined by the end users, defined by
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: the client. It's not defined by you.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: So a lot of times you're making an assessment on
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: behalf of a client that they never agreed to. And
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: what was interesting is when I first got started, that
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: was my rate, $ 100 for three sessions. And what's incredible
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: is I got more objections and I was always engaged
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: in presentations around the price objection.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: At $ 100 for.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Three sessions than than when I raised my prices and
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: the higher I raised my prices. And I think this
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: works to.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: A point, right?
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: There's a diminishing return here because of the perceived value.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: I believe it lowered the perception of risk. And because
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: of that, I got less objections. So I had a client,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: he was one of my best clients. He was with
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: me for years, but he used to always say, wow,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: a hundred dollars a week. You know, you got to
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: think of a different business plan because not a lot
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: of people can afford a hundred dollars a week. And
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: I'm listening to this. And of course, that's an absurd statement.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: But it didn't sound like an absurd statement. It's like, yeah,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: maybe you should charge a little bit less or do
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: something in groups, which was quite progressive, which is kind
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: of weird. And when I left there, my rates only
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: started going up out of necessity. I went to $ 50
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: an hour. Well, I was still getting objections. But when
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: you go to $ 80 an hour, they start decreasing. And
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: when you pass $ 100 an hour, they're non-existent. Someone's either
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: going to train with you, they see the value, or
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: they're not. And you're okay with that at that price point.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: And that's something that I found. I think a lot
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: of people who have ever been in any entrepreneurial endeavor
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: found that there was less resistance when they raised their prices.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: It's almost like, think about when money's really tight. And
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: you're going to go out to a restaurant. And I'm
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: just throwing out round numbers. And one restaurant's $ 75. And
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: another restaurant's $ 100. But it's a much better experience. And
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: you're like, I don't have $ 75 to spend on a
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: mediocre experience. I'd rather eat in today. I'd rather go
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: out on my balcony, enjoy the weather, pour myself a
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: cup of tea, a glass of wine, whatever. But to
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: have a really great experience that's memorable. It connects me
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: and the person I'm going with. It's impactful. Well, that's
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: value for me because the experience is there. So a
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: lot of times when you're charging more, people take you
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: at your word. They perceive a higher value. And I
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: think with higher value comes the lower perception of cost.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you were looking for an attorney solicitor,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: you were in trouble and it wasn't like, okay, I
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: don't have the ability to pay. That's something different. And
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: solicitor said, well, I'm the cheapest solicitor in town. You
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: should hire me. If you're in enough trouble, that's a
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: terrifying proposition to make, which just goes to show you that, okay,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: there's the cost and then there's the value. And they're
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: not the same thing.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Price and value would be a way of saying that.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: When I was towards the end of Harper's, which was
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: about 10 years ago, 12 years ago, 2014, And in
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: the last year or two, I was in and out
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: a bit.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: I wasn't training many people.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: I had lots of great trainers who would do a
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: little of that. But people would bring up, often people
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: who were in Melbourne for business and they followed me on,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: back then it was my... What do you call those things, Bobby,
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: where you write a page every day? What were they called? Blogs.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: A blog.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Fuck. I had 80,000 followers on my blog, which was hilarious,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: but people who knew me through that or bits and
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: pieces of social media that were just getting a bit
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: of momentum or other stuff that I was doing, I
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: did bits and pieces of telly or whatever, but people
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: wanted to come to Harper's on the Peon Highway in
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Brighton and train with me. And they'd come up and
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: I would literally say to them, I can train you,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: but it's going to cost you 400% more than training
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: with one of my trainers.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: And they're good.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: And I said, they're all somewhere between pretty good and
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: really good. I said, but I've got about four trainers
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: that I think you will get the same standard of workout,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: the same experience that you're going to use the same gym,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: the same equipment. you're going to have, from a physiological
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: point of view, you're going to do a very similar workout, right,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: for one quarter of the price.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: So $ 60.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Back then, I think I was $ 250, right, for a workout.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: And even I thought that was like, I just kind
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: of put it at that price so that people wouldn't
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: book in because I really didn't want to do anything.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: And the funny thing was when I made it that,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: and then I made it worse. A year later, I
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: made it $ 400. I thought, I'm getting none ever. And
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: then I kept getting more bookings because people go, oh,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: he must be fucking incredible.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, that wasn't the point. The point was
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: go train with my other people.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: But it is funny that perception of, and you don't
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: have to beat your chest. You don't have to say
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: I'm good. You don't have to say anything. And it's like, well,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: it's 400. But also there are lots of other really
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: good trainers for 60 or 80. So- that's fine, or 100.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: If I were you, I actually wouldn't choose me because
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: it's not four times the value. Most of the time,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: we'd go, yeah, I get it, but I want to
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: train with you, which is good for the ego and
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: all of that. That just fascinated me that despite that, basically,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: you're getting the same product people would pay exponentially more.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: And more recently, as you, I don't know if you know,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I'm just doing some one-on-one coaching now, which I haven't
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: done a lot of one-on-one Zoom coaching for a while
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: because of my PhD, but my PhD is being reviewed
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: now by peer reviewers. And that's anywhere between six weeks
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: and honestly, three or four months. So it's still out there,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: And I'm still waiting for that to come back. But
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: in the meantime, there's really nothing for me to do
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: other than wait for the feedback.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: So I said, I'm going.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: To do this 28-day kind of intake. I just want
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: five people. And we're going to do two a week,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: five people, eight sessions, first session an hour, last session
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: an hour, the middle sessions, 30 minutes. And I charged
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: what I thought was Like, definitely not cheap, but definitely
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: not as expensive as you or I would charge corporately, right?
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Some of the people came back and went, man, that
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: is cheap, and jumped them.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: They're like, cheap?
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: I had a few people tell me that is really,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: really good value. And a couple of people were like,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: are you fucking kidding? Who can afford that? Like, who
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: can afford that much money?
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: And then other people were like, Yeah. Other people like, yeah, that's, yeah, cool, Craig.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: That's good. Thanks. I'm in. That seems about right. And
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: it's the exact same thing that they're analyzing or interpreting
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: or perceiving value around.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: It's just, yeah.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing to observe and then to figure
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: out what do I do with this now, knowing this,
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: you know. And I'll shut up after this one, but
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: I remember, I don't know, do you follow Hormozy at all?
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Do you know who Alex Hormozy is?
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: I know who he is.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: I follow a little bit. He does a bunch of stuff.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: I'm not all over everything he does, but he's very,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: very comfortable in the business development space and all of that.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: But one thing he does is one-day coaching intakes with
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: 10 people, and it's 100,000 US per head. And I'm thinking,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: so this dude who literally rocks up in shorts, a singlet,
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: a baseball cap, and a big fucking hairy face, big beard,
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: by the way, who I think is very, very smart
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: and does a very good job. But people would spend
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: what is for many people an annual wage or more,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: an annual wage on eight hours in a room with
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: nine other people.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: It's not like it's even one-on-one.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: And then you go, wow, that is such an achievement
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: to get people, because if you're selling, especially if you're
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: selling you on a level, if you're selling your time
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: or your knowledge or your skill or your musicianship or
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: your whatever it is, it's like you are worth whatever
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: people think you are worth. There you go. If I
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: think I'm worth... 10 grand an hour as a corporate
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: speaker and no one ever books me for 10 grand, well,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: the market is telling me, Craig, you're not worth 10 grand.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how much I jump up and down.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: And I go, no, I know I'm worth 10,000. And
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: then life goes, cool, where's the evidence? Because no one's
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: paying that. And then you go, maybe people would pay
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: five or six grand, and then you get quite a
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: few bookings in that space or whatever it is. And
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: you go, well, at this point in time, it seems that,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: based on my intel and data, it seems that this
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: is about my hourly rate for this job in this context.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: And I think that's how you can figure out what
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: you might be worth, but it takes time.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, the market will tell you clearly, explicitly. And expeditiously,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: like straight away, what you're actually worth. The question becomes, why?
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Why would someone pay? Like Alex Ramosi is an interesting
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: one to discuss. Let's talk about, go back to you
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: for a second. Why would somebody pay $ 400 an hour
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: versus the, because $ 100 an hour trainer, that's, you know,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: not a bad trainer. It's not a $ 50 an hour trainer. It's,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: you know, someone charging that must have some type of
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: case where you That's actually a very ignorant statement. Usually
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: has a case for that 100. Why pay you 4X
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: for the same exact service? Why do you think that is?
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, it's about perception, obviously.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Also, when you've got a 10,000 square foot business that's
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: got your surname sprawled across the front of the building,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: that creates an impact.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: And then when you have a brand that.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Is known throughout Australia, you know, most people knew about
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Harper's in the fitness industry or knew about me. That's
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: since changed. I'm a straight-up nobody in 2026 and I'm
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: fine with that. But it's all that kind of, you know,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: awareness and brand stuff and, you know, where people would say,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: you know, go to this gym but only train with Bobby.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a bunch of trainers but only– It's
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: like if I tell someone you're great, that has way
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: more credibility and believability than if you tell someone you're great.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Like if you tell someone you're great, I'm definitely not
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: going to see you. But if somebody that I trust
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: and listen to says there are lots of trainers here,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: but personally, like my litmus test used to be, and
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: this is true, would I let them train my mum?
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: That's it. And if I told people I would let
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: that trainer work with my mom, then that's the highest
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: recommendation you can get from me.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: There's two things I'm hearing here. One, it's you're talking
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: about brand. I mean, what is a brand anyway? A
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: brand is nothing more than the emotional association somebody has
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: with your organization and what you do. Here's a perfect
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: example of brand. So I went downtown in a major
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: city to sit with one of my general managers when
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: I was part of the senior leadership team of a
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: major health club chain. And we're in this restaurant in
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: this like, you know, downtown building up on like the
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: 20 something floor. It's gorgeous. And she's telling me, I
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: was just asking her, how's it going? And she starts
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: telling me how many people we've helped this week. I mean,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: what do you mean help? Like how? And, she explained
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: selling memberships. I was like, so you sold memberships. How
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: do you know you helped them? Oh, because selling memberships
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: changes people's lives. So she's just running through all the
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: corporate soundbites, which is understandable given the nature of like,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: I guess the relationship, but I hate corporate soundbites. So
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: I was just gently just challenging her a little bit.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Like you sell a membership, you're not helping them. You're
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: helping you. What happens after? That's the litmus test. And
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: this is beautiful. So server rocks up to the table. Hi,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: can I get you anything to drink? She stares and says,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I know you. Where do I know you from? I
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: know you. And she's like, well, you know, I run
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: the gym downstairs. She's like, I joined that gym last month.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: And she was like, oh, well, how are you enjoying
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: the gym? You know, I asked her a couple of
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: more questions. She said, oh, I haven't been back since
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I bought the membership. Oh, well, question is for that lady,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: what is the brand? What's our brand for that person who,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: you know, you were just talking about all the people
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: you've helped, right? Did anybody even call her? Did anybody
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: even reach out? Was there like, Oh, here's a new
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: member list or like, was that totally disconnected from your
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: goals so for her the brand is nothing the brand
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: is one more failed experience in her mind so the
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: brand evokes pain it doesn't attract her so that's one
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: like what is your brand because that emotional resonance is
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: critical second thing i'm hearing is you know you talk
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: about well my name's on the door well maybe that's
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: credibility right Well, he's the owner. He built this place
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: and he's a trainer, right? He's not just some corporate
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: CEO who invested in a gym. He's a trainer himself.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: He must be credible. And you have 80,000 people following
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: you on a blog. Why is it that we lean
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: into celebrity? Because a lot of times we don't realize
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: that the person that we're watching in the movie or
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: on TV, that's not the person. That's a character. But
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: we feel, I know this person. So there's trust. So
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: the more trust we have... the less perception of risk.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: So there's this value, and a lot of that's emotional
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: in nature when someone's making a decision. And then on
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: the other end, there's risk mitigation. And trust is a
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: big lever when dealing with that.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: What about, I think I've told you this, I've definitely
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: told us on the show, but I'll be quick. So
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: for those who don't know, Banksy is is a British
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: kind of street art dude. Who's the most famous street
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: artist on the planet and has been for over a decade.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: And he, um, he basically does his work on the
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: street and on buildings and on footpaths and on little
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: kind of features of buildings. And I don't know how,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: but he gets away with it. Like he seems to
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: be incredibly popular. I think cause he stuff is not graffiti. It's,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: It's art.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: You know who he is, right, mate?
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: So the story is he gave a friend or someone
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: that he knew, I can't remember the number, it was
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: maybe six or eight pieces of art, Banksy Originals, and
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: this guy went to a– like a street fair, stall,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: you know, marketplace. And he had the stall and it
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: said Banksy Originals, right? So his banner said, essentially, I'm
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: selling original Banksy art. And they're all between, I don't know,
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: 60 bucks and 120 bucks. And people are coming along going,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: sure you are. But they're actually looking at original Banksy $ 200, 000,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: $ 100, 000 pieces of art from Banksy.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: And at the end of the.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Day, he had like four pieces of the eight maybe left.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: And the other four pieces that he sold, people haggled
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: him down. So he ended up selling, you know, bits
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: for like $ 30.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: And so on.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: And yeah, but it's funny because when something is in
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: a different context, like if they went into a fancy
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: gallery in the middle of London and there was a
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Banksy display or a Banksy show and people are drinking
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: cocktails and walking around and going, oh my God, he's
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: a genius. Look at him.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: Oh my God, look at that.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Look at that. Look at that. right? But you put
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: them in a bloody, like a jumble sale or a
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: marketplace along with people selling jam and bloody doorstops and
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: secondhand shoes or whatever. And then all of a sudden
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: this makes no sense to people. So they don't think,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: not because of the arts, but because of the context,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: they don't think it's worth even $ 80.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: So they'll haggle. I love that factor. I love that
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: like that thing that, Oh, like I said to one
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: of my, I'll shut up after this, but one of my.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Clients who I, I coached for a very long time,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: she bought herself a new BMW years ago. She always
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: had fancy cars anyway, but I thought this BMW was
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: kind of shit and I didn't like it. I thought
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: it was ugly, but that's okay. And yeah, And right
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: next to her BMW was a brand new Mazda, which
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: looked infinitely better, had a longer warranty, probably went better,
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: probably lasted better and was maybe less than half the price.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: And I said, what do you think of that car
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: next to yours? We're looking out the window of the gym.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: I said, what do you think of that car next
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: to yours, the black one? And she goes, what is it?
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I go, it doesn't matter what it is. What do
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: you think of it? Like, what do you think of
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: that car? And she's like, tell me what it is. Like,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: she wouldn't give me an opinion until she knew the brand.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Then when I told her it was a Mazda, it's crap.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: She's like, it's crap.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: It's like, wow, that is powerful. When people are buying cars.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: It is powerful.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: But if that Mazda had a BMW badge, she would
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: have loved it.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because when people buy something, they're buying two things,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: sometimes a combination of these things, but one or the other,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: and not necessarily both. They're buying an outcome, and whether
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: that's a specific problem that they're looking to solve or
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: an advantage that they're looking to acquire, but they're also
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: buying the experience. They're buying emotional resonance.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Like back in God, this is, this must've been, I
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: think it was 2004. I was giving a series of
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: seminars in Minnesota and I don't know if you've ever
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: been to Minnesota, but Oh my goodness. In the winter,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: it is, it is like Viking level cold. And they
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: just had their biggest snowstorm in many years. Their lightest
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: snowstorm in many years would shut down most major cities
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: around the world. This was their worst. And I'm in
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: this little rental car, this Toyota. It wasn't bad, actually.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: It's like a Toyota Camry, I think. And I'm staying
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: in this hotel. It was so cold that their heating
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: system had frozen solid. So what they had to do
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: is give me a couple of space heaters and I
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: had to like literally prop them up by the bed
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: and turn them on so I wouldn't freeze overnight. It
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: was still very cold. I could still see my breath.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: So I wake up the next morning and it's 5 a.m.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: And I'm standing in the lobby just staring out into
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: this white frozen tundra. And there's this one guy next
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: to me. And he just looks at me and I
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: just look over at him and we don't even need
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: to say a word. You know, that look that you
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: give each other when you're bonded by what's about to
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: be a shared moment of suffering. And we just plow
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: out to our cars. They're both frozen over. We're just
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: like chiseling at the windows. And I've got my Camry
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: and he's got his Mercedes right next to me. And
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: we pry the doors open and we sit in the
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: car and we both start up our cars right around
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: the same time. Now, if you're thinking about quality in
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: an automobile, how do you define quality? What's quality? What's
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: a quality car, Craig?
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Is it one that, I don't know, one that kind
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: of a combination of function and reliability, but also I
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: think it's like a, a social kind of status thing.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, my car's worth, I mean, it wasn't
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: my car, it was my rental car, but it's probably
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: worth about 20% what his car was worth. Which car
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: do you think started up first?
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's hilarious.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: And the answer is they both started the first try.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Which is impressive. given the weather conditions. So if quality
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: is dependability, both cars had it. What he was buying,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: like you're saying, is the feeling he got driving down
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: the street, which that morning, I think the feeling he
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: got was hypothermia. But he could have been feeling prestigious.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: He could have grown up poor for all he knows.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: And when he's driving down the street, that emblem means
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: he's made it. He's safe. He's never going back. He's
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: that person that has built that life. He'll never have
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: to struggle with poverty again, or, you know, maybe it's,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: it's status. He pulls up to his neighbor, looks over
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: and he's got a better call. So that, that emotional
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: connotation behind every purchase and experience and product is extremely powerful.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: And then you have this thing about, well, what do
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: different people value? Like for me, I want a car
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: that's dependable. I want a car that's fairly economical, but
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: not too much. I also want a car that's kind
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: of fun. Because when I had my Beamer, my convertible,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: I loved it. It was a great car. I loved
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: the way it drove. I loved the tight steering. But
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: a car I liked even more than that, a car
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: my wife got, was the Mini. Because the Mini was
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: just like small and sporty and I loved it. So
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: if I'm driving around in a really expensive car, if
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: I'm driving around in a Mini, to me, it's the
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: same thing. But depending on people's value structure, like what
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: emotion a particular service or a product evokes is important.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people, I mean, not people
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: in sales, hopefully, but I think people forget that. It's
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: like sometimes the kindest thing that you can do for
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: someone is is make them feel the way they really
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: want to feel.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Sorry.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: No, I love that.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: I was just going to say, do you remember that
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: study that they did? I think it was in Canada.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: I know they did the milkshake study in Canada, which
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: was fabulous, where they gave them a high-calorie, low-calorie, and
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: in-between-calorie kind of milkshake, which happened to be all the
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: same The same milkshake, but they had totally different mental, emotional,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: and physical responses.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Aaliyah Crumb's research. Yeah.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: And then there was another one on these wines where
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: they had three different wines, cheap, expensive, and in between.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: But what they did was they tracked what was going
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: on in their brain at the same time.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: So when they were drinking... The expensive wine.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, their brain, their dopamine production went up,
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: their brain lit up like a Christmas tree.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: There was all this pleasure going on, right?
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: And then when they had the cheaper one, it was like,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: you know, a street with no lights on. And, you know,
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: it's like all of a sudden they're like, hey, it
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: isn't about the wine.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: It isn't about the cost. It isn't about the quality.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: It's actually about what you think it is because not
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: the wine, but what they thought of the wine literally
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: produced their experience. And I wonder how much we do
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: that in general.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: I would imagine we do it all the time. The
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: question is how often do we realize that we're doing that?
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: And my answer would probably be at least much less often.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: It's funny.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: The other day, mum gave me one of dad's watchers.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: And she said, do you want this?
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: And I went, yeah, but I think I'll give it
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: to his brother because he's got him and one of
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: his remaining brothers. They were quite close, and I don't
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: think he has anything of that. So anyway, I was
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: going to give it to him. And I think the
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: watch is a Tag Heuer or something, and I thought, oh,
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: I wonder what this watch is worth because I don't
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: want to give him like a $ 50 watch. I'm going
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: to feel– cheap. And, and then I looked it up
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: and it's, it's, it's worth quite a bit, not, not
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: thousands and thousands, but it's actually not a cheap watch.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: And then I felt really good about giving him the
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: watch just because I knew it was expensive-ish rather than
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: I felt bad about giving him a cheap watch, but
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: it's got nothing to do with the watch because it
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: just happened to be you know, something that dad had
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: on his wrist. And that's the point. It's about the
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: emotional connection. It's about the connection with his brother. But
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: I was worried about giving him a cheap watch, whereas
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: I'm sure he couldn't give a fuck if it cost
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: $ 2 off But I felt better about myself giving it
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: to him when it turns out it wasn't a cheap watch. Yeah.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Did I just throw Debbie Downer in there?
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: No, I just think that's another point. It's like, again,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: where we started this conversation, what is value? There's so
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: many variables. I mean, something can have inherently no worth
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: monetarily or no worth to anybody else, but because of
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: the memory that's attached to something, you know, I mean,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: think about, think about a kid drawing something with absolutely
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: no talent to speak of. and hanging that picture on
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: the fridge. What's that picture worth to mom and dad?
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Quite a bit, actually. That is true. Somebody going to
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: come to the house and buy that kid's art? Well, maybe,
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: but unlikely. But it's still worth a lot.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: I guess also like with the watch, you go, oh,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: if you have no context or no story or no
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: anything to the watch, you go, here's a watch. What's
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: it worth? Well, whatever it's worth, but it's probably 10
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: years old and it's whatever.
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: But then what it's worth to his younger brother.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: Who loved his brother, who's now gone, who now has
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: this watch. There is only one of these. This is
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: the only one in the world that belonged to your brother,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: and now it's yours. What's that worth?
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: That's a different kind of value and perception.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: Totally.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: See, I wonder, because I've had things in like clothes that,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: you know, were gifted to me or they remind me
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: of a certain event. And sometimes like I don't wear
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: them because the emotional impact is too strong.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: Like, what do you mean?
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Because you have memories attached to wearing that when you
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: were younger or because... Yeah.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Just certain things where it's like, ah, so right. I
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: wore this outfit. Oh, I remember when I was hanging
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: out with this mate of mine and maybe this person's
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: no longer with us. And it's like, yeah, it's like,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't want to wear this. I don't
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: want to like be, I don't want to psychologically be
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: thrusted back into that period of my life or that day,
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: which is interesting. When you were saying that, I was like,
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: you know, there are things I've misplaced because I moved
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: for sport. And it's like all these things are going
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: on in my head. It's like objects can be powerful.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: Let's ask and answer as best we can.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: One practical question for our listeners who have a small
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: business or they sell a product or they sell a
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: service and essentially they are the business, they are the product,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: they are the service.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: And the business doesn't exist without them.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: How do they, what's the starting point for figuring out
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: what this is worth outside of my head?
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: Like, what is this? What is the value of this?
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: How do I figure that out? Because as you said before.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: And I said too, I think, you know, it's whatever
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: the thing you sell is, it's worth whatever people will
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: pay for it. Like the market will determine it. If
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: they think you're worth 500 now, they'll pay you. If
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: they don't, they won't. The end.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: They might now.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Think you're worth $ 200, but some good stuff will happen
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: in the next year or three, and they might think
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: you're worth $ 1, 000 an hour because their perception has changed, right?
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: So therefore, you know, what people will buy and for
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: how much will change. But if we're starting off and
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: we don't want to undersell ourselves, we don't want to
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: do ourselves a disservice, but we also want to be
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: somewhat realistic. Any advice?
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: I think, okay. So this is a great question for
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: me because this is something where I've struggled myself. So
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: I've sold everything from $ 50 a month memberships to several
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: hundred or a couple of thousand dollar personal training packages
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: to six and seven figure programs. Fairly successfully as well.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: But where I struggled was selling myself. Because if I'm selling, okay,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: we're going to train all of your trainers, right? And
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: we're going to do a series of exploratory meetings. And
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: we're going to figure out how much money you're losing, basically.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Because I think fear of loss or loss aversion is
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: more powerful than the argument for gain. And we're going
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: to tell you how much this is costing you not
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: to have this already, like what you can expect to make,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: where these savings are going to come from, whether it's
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: going to come from direct ancillary revenue or whether it's
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: going to come from a decrease in attrition with your employees,
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: with your membership base. So I could sell that because
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: the parameters are clear. But when it's come to me,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: there's so many things that I do that intersect and
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: it all makes sense to me. Like when somebody says, well, well-being, well,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: what is that? To me, that's coaching, communication skills, that's
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: understanding values, purpose, that's sleep, hygiene, nutrition. It's like, well,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: what exactly is it that you sell? So I think
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: the very first thing that I've had to learn the
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: hard way is what problem are you solving? Like get as,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: as simple and small as possible, because if you go
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: narrow and deep, you can then go wide, but it's
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: very hard to do the opposite. So it's almost like
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: you ever walked by a kebab shop and they also
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: sell cheeseburgers and pizza and sushi. And it's like, I
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: think I'm going to keep walking. Um, this is this one,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: this seems like a public health crisis. Like I'm going
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: to go to the one place that sells nothing but kebabs, right?
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: If I'm buying sushi, I'm going to buy, they sell
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: nothing but sushi and is the place busy. So the
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: first thing is what is the prop? It was the
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: problem that you are quintessentially solving. Make it as clear
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: and as narrow as you possibly can because it's very
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: hard for people to wrap their heads around ambiguity and
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: dynamic complexity. They can do that once you have a relationship.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: So that's number one. Two, I feel like it's not
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: just what you sell or what problem you solve. I
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: think a lot of people can tell the difference between
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: someone who knows what they're talking about and someone who
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: does not. And having expertise and competence in your area
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: is not a differentiating factor. Like if I go to
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: my doctor and I'm like, well, I went to medical school.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: She's like, I hope so. I kind of had that
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: baseline expectation walking into the office. I stopped seeing a
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: couple of doctors because I would ask them a couple
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: of anatomy questions about my separated ac joint and their
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: answers led me to believe that yeah you know topographical
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: anatomy but functionally you should have a much different answer
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: to what i'm asking so i think you know to
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: varying degrees people can kind of read that but what
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: do you do that's not better but different because there
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: are there are nuances can you solve the same problem
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: but do it in a more engaging way? Can you
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: make it inherently less painful? Like when you go on
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: social media, this might be an example. Um, like there's different, there's,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: there's different ways people yield value. Like there's one history channel.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Can I plug a history channel? I have no connection
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: with it.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: And then I'll tell you, and then I'll tell you
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: something really phenomenal about this. It's called Chloe versus history. And, um,
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: chloe will teach you all about history and you could
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: be the same person whose eyes glazed over when they
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: were dropping facts and details and dates but she's actually
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: there she goes back in time like with the help
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: of ai and it looks like a movie The quality
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: is so good, it's like she's really there. So she
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: teaches you historical facts that are quite relevant. I think
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: history is very important, especially considering how frequently we forget
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: the lessons and have to repeat the same mistakes over
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: and over again. But let's get off of that soapbox.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: But she does it in a way that is super
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: engaging and entertaining. Now, Chloe is an AI herself. I
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: didn't believe this. She's got incredible personality. She's cheeky. She's
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: quick witted. The only problem is she doesn't actually exist.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: Chloe's a bloke sitting in a room somewhere creating these
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: and well done, but that's added value. So the competency
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: is not like I'm going to teach you history lessons
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: that you could apply to your life. It's I'm going
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: to do it in a way you've never seen it
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: done before. And you're going to actually enjoy something that
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: you would probably avoid or dread. So what is it
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: that you're doing that is, is different. And I think
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: the third thing is there's a reason why the meta myth,
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Joseph Campbell's meta myth works, the hero's journey. It's it,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: you have to connect with where the person is. There's
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: got to be something about, look, I understand. where you
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: are right now um i guess in non-violent communication marshall
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: rosenberg would call this feel felt found and i think
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: salespeople misuse this a lot but it's basically the statement
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: i understand how you feel without having to say i
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: understand how you feel you say something about the problem
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: that makes it clear you understand how that person feels
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: so instantly you're expressing empathy the next part of that
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: is you know i too have felt the same way
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: right or someone else has felt the same way so
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: you're not alone you're expressing validity validity lowers resistance and
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: threat and And here's what I found, or here's what
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: the research has found, or here's what, you know, my
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: customers have found. Like, what is your story that you're telling?
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, how bad, like, how bad does
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: the problem hurt?
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: What is it costing you? What, what's the vehicle to
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: get you out of it?
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Like, how am I going to get you out of
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: this and keep that as simple as possible? Who else
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: has experienced this that's worked with me that was just
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: like you and they solved that problem? Here's how they're doing. Oh,
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: and this is what your life is going to be
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: like on the other side of this. That's the hero's journey.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: What's the compelling story? quest? Like what is it that,
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: that took you out of the status quo and made
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: you take action? What are all the challenges that you faced?
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Who are the people that are your allies along with you?
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: What's the transformation and who's, who benefits from that transformation? You,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: your community, people you care about, so on and so forth.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: So the three things would be what problem do you solve?
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: How do you do it differently in a way that's unique?
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: which adds value. What's your story where they can envision
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: themselves the hero in that narrative as a result of
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: working with you, using your product, your service. I think those,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: those are three things. That is great.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: I felt like I just got an eight minute seminar,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: which I did, but very good. Just quickly, everyone. So
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: if you go to YouTube, uh, Bobby was talking about
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: Chloe versus history. I'm having a look right now. It
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: looks amazing. Um, Also, Joseph Campbell is definitely worth just
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: having a bit of a squeeze at Joseph Campbell. He's
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: not someone that we know about much in Australia or
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: we talk about.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: You've got to read Hero of a Thousand Faces, and
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: I forgot what episode it was. I did an interview with,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: this is a name from the past you'll recognize, Paul Cech.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: Remember him?
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've had him on.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's great.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Paul is- He's a genius, and I don't throw that word.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: He's a straight-up genius. Oh, no doubt.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: He's unusually intelligent. Let's put it that way. And we
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: were on an episode. I don't know. I asked him
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: something about the hero's journey. And he went through Hero
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: of a Thousand Faces and broke down each archetype in
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: such detail and brought it back to practicality and modern
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: day and how that works and how you're this archetype. If,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: if you're doing this and what this means. And he
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: went through all of it as if he had the
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: book in front of him and he was just, just
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: going off of it. I was just like, this is amazing.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: So I remember you telling me he went to see
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: him and he's got like his personal library. He's got
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: something like 10,000 physical books or something.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: Richard Boyd was there with me. And I, I, if I,
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: if memory serves me, I think Rochelle was with me
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: and his library is, it's like a, he, his library
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: is like a small public library. It's got spiral winding
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: staircases or he's not there in Vista anymore. This was,
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: this was in his Vista, California location. And it has
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: multiple levels, multiple floors. He has read every single book.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: And here's, you know, here's something I just want to
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: talk about. I think if there's one thing anybody can
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: ever do, whether you're in sales or whatever, is learn
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: about yourself. Read everything connected to your subject matter and
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: everything tangential to it as well that you can connect
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: to it. Because here's where width and depth make a
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: big difference. You can relate to a variety of people
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: and make connections that are very uncommon. I just feel
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: like when I think about people who I look.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: At, I'm like, oh, wow.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: Like this person's brilliant. There are people who read incessantly.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that I've talked about
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: where I have felt guilty doing the one thing that
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: is probably the most productive thing that you can do.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: And it so happens that I deeply enjoy it. And
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: when I think about like times in my life where
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: no matter what the challenges were, no matter what the
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: hardships were, I felt highly engaged. It's when I was reading.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: And I don't mean like reading 50 minutes here, there.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: I mean like hours a day.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: It's listening for a lot of people now, isn't it?
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: With audio books.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: Fair enough. Immerse yourself in information that expands your mind
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: on ways that you can one, engage with stuff that
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: you're curious about. Two, you can share that with people
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: in a way that contributes because value is about contribution.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: Bottom line.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: Bobby Capuccio always delivers the self-help antidote.
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: You can find him on LinkedIn. You can find him
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: on the interwebs.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: You can find him hiding in Paul Cech's library, third floor. Mate,
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: it's always good. Appreciate you. Thanks for coming out to
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: play and surviving a Tiflis episode.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad we got through it. I didn't think
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: we would. I was very sad when I heard Tif
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: wasn't here, but well done.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: We did what we can, the alpha males that we are.
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: I'll say goodbye in a minute, but for now, thanks, buddy.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: Thank you.