Latest / Pharmacy Podcast Network / Infertility, IVF, Foster Care, and Adoption: A Pharmacist’s Journey to Building a Family | MaternalRx

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Infertility, IVF, Foster Care, and Adoption: A Pharmacist’s Journey to Building a Family | MaternalRx · Pharmacy Podcast Network

0:05
Speaker 1: You are listening to the global network of podcasters dedicated
0:09
Speaker 1: to the pharmacy profession.
0:10
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Pharmacy Podcast Network.
0:25
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Maternal RX podcast on the Pharmacy Podcast Network.
0:29
Speaker 1: I'm your host, doctor Danielle Plumber, pharmacist and doula, and
0:34
Speaker 1: so excited about today's episode. It's taking us in a
0:37
Speaker 1: different direction from my previous interviews. It's a deeply personal
0:41
Speaker 1: conversation about infertility, grief, resilience, and the mini pats families
0:46
Speaker 1: take toward parenthood. I'm joined by my mentor and former manager,
0:51
Speaker 1: pharmacist Willie Bowarski, and his beautiful and incredibly kind and
0:56
Speaker 1: amazing wife Olivia, who shared their lived experience navigating infertility,
1:02
Speaker 1: the emotional and financial realities of IVF, and the unexpected
1:06
Speaker 1: turning point that led them to foster care and ultimately adoption. Together,
1:11
Speaker 1: we explore what it means to hold hope alongside uncertainty,
1:14
Speaker 1: to love without guarantees, and to redefine family in ways
1:18
Speaker 1: you never planned for. We also reflect on the unique
1:21
Speaker 1: role pharmacists and other healthcare professionals play during infertility and IVF,
1:26
Speaker 1: often as steady presences during some of the most vulnerable
1:29
Speaker 1: moments of a patient's life. Willie Olivia, thank you so
1:33
Speaker 1: much for coming on and telling this story. So my
1:36
Speaker 1: first question for you is, before infertility entered the picture,
1:40
Speaker 1: what did you both assume the path to parenthood would
1:43
Speaker 1: look like and how did that assumption slowly unravel?
1:46
Speaker 3: I think that we pictured parenthood to become like any
1:52
Speaker 3: other couple, where we would try to have a child
1:57
Speaker 3: naturally conceive, you know, between us, After multiple years of trying,
2:03
Speaker 3: we realized that maybe it wasn't going to happen naturally
2:08
Speaker 3: and that we should probably go to a doctor and
2:11
Speaker 3: just figure out if there was something else going on.
2:14
Speaker 3: And sure enough, when we went, we figured out that
2:17
Speaker 3: we had a few things going on with infertility and
2:21
Speaker 3: that our path was kind of leading us into a
2:23
Speaker 3: different direction.
2:24
Speaker 1: Can you make it sound so simple and white, and
2:28
Speaker 1: we know that's not, you know, take emotion away from
2:31
Speaker 1: that right where you add emotion the human experience through
2:35
Speaker 1: that it's not so black and white. Can you walk
2:38
Speaker 1: us through what those years of trying and eventually IVF
2:42
Speaker 1: actually felt like emotionally?
2:44
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I guess the kind of loss it was
2:49
Speaker 4: this orienting because the world keeps moving and you're internally
2:55
Speaker 4: recalculating everything, and you're really just carrying this burden while
3:02
Speaker 4: it's all happening, and we just, I guess we just
3:04
Speaker 4: assumed that the effort would lead to our desired outcome
3:07
Speaker 4: because typically, or at least previously in our lives, that
3:11
Speaker 4: is how things worked. And then this really just threw
3:15
Speaker 4: us for a loop.
3:16
Speaker 1: And I think I might have been an intern under
3:18
Speaker 1: you at that time. Potentially, Yes, I was one of
3:23
Speaker 1: those people that didn't know better and said, I love
3:27
Speaker 1: you guys. You're so beautiful and so smart. You have
3:29
Speaker 1: to have children when you and I regret that to know,
3:35
Speaker 1: and you handled it with such poise and kindness. And
3:39
Speaker 1: it wasn't until years later, you know that I learned.
3:42
Speaker 1: You know, you said we're going to foster and I
3:44
Speaker 1: was like, oh wow, I just can't thank you enough
3:46
Speaker 1: for not just shooting me down in my space or
3:49
Speaker 1: just breaking down in front of me, you know, having
3:52
Speaker 1: that struggle. It just brings to life how other people
3:56
Speaker 1: don't know what coworkers or friends are actually going going through.
4:01
Speaker 1: A lot of times, what you see online or what
4:03
Speaker 1: you see in the workplace or out socially doesn't tell
4:06
Speaker 1: the story. Of what people are experiencing inside. Can you
4:10
Speaker 1: walk us through what those years of trying and eventually
4:14
Speaker 1: going through IVF actually felt like emotionally and how the
4:17
Speaker 1: financial reality of each cycle shaped the decisions you were
4:21
Speaker 1: making month to month.
4:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really confusing because, like you said, it's just
4:26
Speaker 3: not really talked about, and so for us, we're kind
4:31
Speaker 3: of navigating through the situation not really knowing although I
4:35
Speaker 3: will I will say, and I'm sure she's okay with
4:38
Speaker 3: me mentioning this. My sister also went through IVF and infertility,
4:42
Speaker 3: and so we kind of knew what to expect because
4:45
Speaker 3: we saw it, but until you go through it, you
4:49
Speaker 3: don't really know how it's going to feel emotionally, right,
4:53
Speaker 3: So you're thinking, you have this plan and you have
4:57
Speaker 3: this all in place of what's going to happen and
4:59
Speaker 3: how it it's going to happen, and then it pivots
5:02
Speaker 3: and you're kind of mourning a loss of something that
5:06
Speaker 3: didn't happen, which is confusing. And you know, when we
5:10
Speaker 3: started going through IVF, we were very hopeful, but the
5:13
Speaker 3: reality is like our insurance unfortunately did not cover it,
5:17
Speaker 3: and so you're talking about multiple thousands of dollars right
5:21
Speaker 3: per around, and that can be a lot for many,
5:24
Speaker 3: many families.
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Speaker 4: As Olivia alluded to, you know, each cycle does have
5:29
Speaker 4: a real price tag attached, and you start making decisions,
5:33
Speaker 4: whether they're emotional, financial, moral, and it's all coming at
5:37
Speaker 4: you all at once, and really not everyone can just
5:40
Speaker 4: keep trying, you know, over and over again without risk
5:43
Speaker 4: of real harm. And I guess in terms of the
5:48
Speaker 4: way that pharmacists may often see us, this is where
5:51
Speaker 4: cost driven care decisions and even financial toxicity can quietly
5:57
Speaker 4: enter that picture. In farm will often see this up close,
6:02
Speaker 4: whether it's through coverage gaps, prior authorizations, refill frictions. It's
6:08
Speaker 4: more just knowing that this is occurring every day, whether
6:13
Speaker 4: you know, you're you're aware of it or not, it
6:15
Speaker 4: is it is happening day in day out.
6:19
Speaker 1: So Willie, for our retail pharmacists, is there any advice
6:22
Speaker 1: that you would give them if they see those patients
6:25
Speaker 1: coming through and picking up their IVF medications.
6:29
Speaker 4: Yes, I guess I think a lot of it is
6:33
Speaker 4: in those in those small moments. You know, a lot
6:36
Speaker 4: of it can be the words we use, the tone
6:39
Speaker 4: that we use, possibly even the assumptions or the implicit
6:44
Speaker 4: bias we may have, or the decision not to assume
6:47
Speaker 4: anything at all. I guess I think it's more. It's
6:53
Speaker 4: more about the continuity of care and the presence you
6:59
Speaker 4: know you're present, as you know, one's pharmacists that are
7:04
Speaker 4: very underrated, they're very underrated clinical interventions, and the fact
7:08
Speaker 4: that you know you are trusted and your words actually
7:13
Speaker 4: often have you bigger meaning than you would expect. And
7:18
Speaker 4: I guess for me, when I was working in retail pharmacy,
7:22
Speaker 4: which was for about fifteen twenty years, I really just
7:27
Speaker 4: had a goal every day that I would just show
7:30
Speaker 4: up and I would genuinely help one patient that day
7:33
Speaker 4: and truly make a difference, and even just one patient's
7:36
Speaker 4: life and every day. And really, if this can even
7:39
Speaker 4: help you know, one pharmacist or one listener feel less alone,
7:44
Speaker 4: or learn a little bit about this, or help really
7:48
Speaker 4: have more of an understanding or help to navigate the process,
7:50
Speaker 4: than this is all this is all worth.
7:52
Speaker 2: It for us.
7:54
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing these statements, because we know the
7:59
Speaker 1: world of retail forcy, at least in the United States,
8:02
Speaker 1: it is it is draining, it is exhausting. You're being
8:06
Speaker 1: pushed up from your corporate leadership and pushback from insurance
8:10
Speaker 1: companies and doctors that might not be having that cohesive
8:14
Speaker 1: continuity of care that you described, and it's very easy
8:18
Speaker 1: to get burnt out and bitter in that retail space.
8:21
Speaker 1: Bring back that human emotion. You are one of those leaders.
8:26
Speaker 1: Those why I call you my mentor all these years
8:29
Speaker 1: because I watched how you can push all that aside
8:33
Speaker 1: that's being around you, and when that patient comes to
8:36
Speaker 1: the counter to pick up their medication, you were able
8:39
Speaker 1: to deliver still that care. Like you said that word,
8:43
Speaker 1: if you could change, give hope, give support to even
8:46
Speaker 1: just one patient, that leads to many more than just
8:51
Speaker 1: that one. And it's a good reminder for our pharmacist
8:54
Speaker 1: that feel that struggle of going to work every day
8:58
Speaker 1: being pushed to the brink of what they can handle
9:00
Speaker 1: physically and emotionally, and bring it back to reality and
9:04
Speaker 1: remember why did we choose this profession in the first place.
9:08
Speaker 1: So I just again want to thank you for bringing
9:10
Speaker 1: that and giving the care that you need to the
9:13
Speaker 1: patients going through this journey, even long before you knew
9:17
Speaker 1: that it would be your journey as well. Right, Olivia,
9:21
Speaker 1: did you want to add anything to that.
9:25
Speaker 3: I think, you know, in any situation that's difficult for people,
9:30
Speaker 3: it's just you know, validating feelings, just listening a lot
9:35
Speaker 3: of times people just need someone to listen to or
9:37
Speaker 3: to listen to them, and I think it's just helpful
9:40
Speaker 3: to have somebody that, just like I mentioned, just validate feelings,
9:45
Speaker 3: right Like, there's no necessarily an answer, there's no this
9:48
Speaker 3: is what you need to do. It's just I understand
9:51
Speaker 3: that you're going through this difficult time.
9:53
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're going through it. What I find very
9:56
Speaker 1: interesting really working in healthcare. Still, the insurance wasn't going
10:01
Speaker 1: to cover each of these cycles or determine how many cycles.
10:05
Speaker 1: Like insurance companies, we know they really do dictate care.
10:09
Speaker 1: But when you're talking about becoming parents, each one of
10:13
Speaker 1: those cycles does make that big difference. When IVF wasn't
10:17
Speaker 1: giving you the clarity or outcome you hoped for, what
10:20
Speaker 1: led you to even consider foster care as an option.
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Speaker 3: So first we did look at regular adoption. Just after
10:30
Speaker 3: having gone through IVF, you know, we're you know, we're
10:35
Speaker 3: talking about finances and the and thinking about you know,
10:39
Speaker 3: your your financial future. We did look into regular adoption
10:44
Speaker 3: and finding that also that was very expensive as well,
10:50
Speaker 3: and that's the reality of it, right, So you have
10:52
Speaker 3: to you have to kind of put it all together
10:56
Speaker 3: and figure out what is your best path. And we
11:00
Speaker 3: understand that that foster care is not necessarily everyone's path.
11:03
Speaker 1: It's not for everybody.
11:05
Speaker 3: But we were open to it mainly because Willie's sister
11:12
Speaker 3: fostered a couple children for about two years and we
11:17
Speaker 3: saw her journey through foster care and my sister was
11:20
Speaker 3: just involved with some foster care organizations and things like that,
11:25
Speaker 3: and so we figured we should at least consider and
11:29
Speaker 3: give it a shot, or at least, you know, get
11:31
Speaker 3: information and inquire.
11:33
Speaker 1: So that's where it started.
11:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think just seeing all that up close between
11:38
Speaker 4: my sister and Olivia's sister made foster care feel a lot.
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Speaker 2: More real, like, you know, a lot more of a
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Speaker 2: real option.
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Speaker 4: Nothing that was you know, abstract or theoretical. I guess
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Speaker 4: it had quietly been in the back of our minds
11:56
Speaker 4: all along. We just didn't realize, you know, that we
12:00
Speaker 4: maybe going down that same path. And I guess it
12:03
Speaker 4: kind of reframed family for us as well. I guess
12:07
Speaker 4: something rooted in like nonlinear care journeys and ethical caregiving,
12:15
Speaker 4: it's more, you know, more of I guess, like a
12:18
Speaker 4: modern family where you know it doesn't always look exactly
12:22
Speaker 4: how you planned and that's okay, that is okay, that's
12:26
Speaker 4: what we've taken on.
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Speaker 1: It's not just okay. It's beautiful and brilliant. And I
12:31
Speaker 1: see that anally you've created. There is a shining light, absolutely,
12:37
Speaker 1: and you know once you can come out of that time.
12:40
Speaker 1: You went through the grief, right like you said, mourning
12:43
Speaker 1: the loss of something that didn't happen, physical toll, the
12:46
Speaker 1: financial tool of IVF. You shared that you walked into
12:50
Speaker 1: your first foster care class expecting to walk out. What
12:53
Speaker 1: shifted in that room that made you stay?
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Speaker 4: Quite honestly, we walked into that first foster care class guarded, exhausted,
13:02
Speaker 4: probably just you know, emotionally, just drained and fully expecting
13:05
Speaker 4: to leave halfway throughout the class. But I think what
13:10
Speaker 4: stopped us was our instructor and her honesty and how
13:15
Speaker 4: real she was. She didn't really sell us a dream,
13:18
Speaker 4: She wasn't trying to minimize the difficulty that we may
13:21
Speaker 4: have been going through. She really just spoke plainly about loss, uncertainty, attachment, heartbreak,
13:30
Speaker 4: really all those things that were hitting hardists at that time,
13:34
Speaker 4: and I guess it created a sense of like psychological safety,
13:40
Speaker 4: which you know, in terms of for pharmacists, that's something
13:45
Speaker 4: that patients would crave in healthcare too, you know, whether
13:49
Speaker 4: it's a pharmacy, it could be in a whole different
13:52
Speaker 4: walks of life. But I guess just being trusted with
13:56
Speaker 4: reality is almost always going to be better than a
14:00
Speaker 4: hearing or seemingly like you're being managed with reassurance or
14:04
Speaker 4: given words without you know, that full dignity respect behind.
14:09
Speaker 1: Them powerful statements. Olivia, what about your experience when you
14:14
Speaker 1: walked into that foster care class.
14:18
Speaker 3: I think I didn't really have an expectation. I was
14:23
Speaker 3: just trying to stay as open minded as possible. But
14:26
Speaker 3: like as Willy mentioned, I did think that after the
14:30
Speaker 3: first class, we were both going to be like, Okay,
14:32
Speaker 3: this isn't really for us.
14:34
Speaker 1: But there was something about.
14:36
Speaker 3: The way the instructor, like Willy said, spoke to us.
14:40
Speaker 3: She was just very honest, very real, and then just
14:43
Speaker 3: kind of giving us the reality of what foster care
14:47
Speaker 3: situations are like. In our town alone, there was three
14:50
Speaker 3: thousand kids, wow, in foster care that needed a place
14:55
Speaker 3: to stay. Right, So I think it kind of shifted
14:58
Speaker 3: to being able to help and then hopefully along the
15:03
Speaker 3: way we would be able to build our family.
15:06
Speaker 1: Once you make the decision that you will move forward
15:09
Speaker 1: with fostering, what's the next step in that? It's a process.
15:15
Speaker 3: You have to get licensed, and so you're doing home studies,
15:19
Speaker 3: you're meeting with social workers, you're getting your place safe
15:25
Speaker 3: and ready for whoever's to come. Of course, you pick
15:29
Speaker 3: an age range that you feel most comfortable with. And
15:32
Speaker 3: then once the whole process is done in your license,
15:36
Speaker 3: then they'll start calling you, and they call you with
15:39
Speaker 3: different cases and they tell you the ages of the
15:42
Speaker 3: kids that are available and what their circumstances are and
15:46
Speaker 3: how they ended up in foster care and all sorts
15:49
Speaker 3: of things like that.
15:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the stories they can be kind of crazy.
15:53
Speaker 3: So you just you have to prepare yourself for that, right, Yeah,
15:57
Speaker 3: it's pretty wild.
15:58
Speaker 1: How did fostering loving children without guarantees change the way
16:03
Speaker 1: you think about attachment loss and what it means to
16:06
Speaker 1: be a family? You know? And before you answer, I
16:08
Speaker 1: just want to add, when you have children through natural childbirth,
16:13
Speaker 1: there's still no guarantees, right, but fostering adds, I guess
16:17
Speaker 1: an extra element to.
16:18
Speaker 3: That, yeah, for sure, because at any point you could
16:23
Speaker 3: get a call saying that they're going to go home,
16:25
Speaker 3: and so yeah, you just have to be really open
16:29
Speaker 3: and prepared. I mean, I think that we stayed pretty
16:32
Speaker 3: guarded throughout our whole process until adoption day. I mean,
16:35
Speaker 3: nothing's official until it's sign sealed, delivered, of course, so
16:39
Speaker 3: you kind of just have to be okay living in
16:42
Speaker 3: the unknown, which is uncomfortable, but that's what.
16:47
Speaker 1: You have to do.
16:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of it you're asked to love deeply without.
16:52
Speaker 4: Any control over the outcome, which I think was fairly
16:56
Speaker 4: unfamiliar territory for us, and then knowing that the losses
17:01
Speaker 4: part of the deal, it's part of the journey.
17:02
Speaker 2: So I guess at first it was quite scary.
17:05
Speaker 4: But then over time, you know, we did, you know,
17:08
Speaker 4: learn a lot we didn't develop and kind of just realize,
17:11
Speaker 4: you know, just to meet the situation exactly where it is,
17:16
Speaker 4: to meet that child exactly where they are, that our
17:19
Speaker 4: presence really mattered more than the permanence of it all,
17:24
Speaker 4: and really love was more, it was more than I
17:29
Speaker 4: guess just the outcome. It was more, you know, just
17:33
Speaker 4: I guess injecting love into the whole situation really just
17:36
Speaker 4: taught us a lot about attachment, resilience and just showing
17:41
Speaker 4: up for people.
17:42
Speaker 1: Wow, it's really incredible. Do you remember what was the
17:45
Speaker 1: timeline from when you first went into that foster care
17:49
Speaker 1: class until you fostered.
17:52
Speaker 3: I think it was our classes started in August of
17:57
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen. We started fostering in November of twenty nineteen,
18:02
Speaker 3: and just to put it in perspective too, and we
18:05
Speaker 3: had four kids come into our home within thirty days.
18:09
Speaker 1: Wow.
18:10
Speaker 3: So it was like they just threw us right in
18:13
Speaker 3: there right in the beginning, and then we got our
18:17
Speaker 3: now adopted children right at the beginning of twenty twenty.
18:22
Speaker 1: What made you make the decision to go from fostering
18:25
Speaker 1: to adopting. It's a great question.
18:30
Speaker 4: I think it happens naturally, but I think, you know,
18:33
Speaker 4: we were already in the space of fostering with really
18:37
Speaker 4: the eventual goal of adopting, and there was kind of
18:42
Speaker 4: a nice saying that we were I guess almost became
18:45
Speaker 4: like a mantra at that time. It was you know
18:47
Speaker 4: that the children will come into our lives. It could
18:50
Speaker 4: be for a reason, it could be just for a
18:54
Speaker 4: season or it could be for a lifetime. And we
18:58
Speaker 4: knew that our events was you know, to have a
19:01
Speaker 4: family from this, so it did kind of kind of
19:05
Speaker 4: nicely align with that. But I guess we also just
19:09
Speaker 4: understood and accepted the fact that, you know, it was
19:11
Speaker 4: out of our hands. You know, it was more just
19:14
Speaker 4: about the process and if it was meant to be,
19:18
Speaker 4: then it would be.
19:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you really do have to live by that
19:22
Speaker 1: line of thinking, you know, as pharmacists were so concrete
19:25
Speaker 1: in what we do and we're trained right always find
19:29
Speaker 1: the right answer. So when you have something in your
19:31
Speaker 1: personal life where the unknown just has to be the
19:36
Speaker 1: way you live by Olivia, you know, when you said
19:39
Speaker 1: that those children could be returned at any time and
19:42
Speaker 1: it's really out of your control, that's something really to
19:45
Speaker 1: wrap your brain around and accept not doesn't come so
19:50
Speaker 1: easily to do. It takes time and lots of patients, right,
19:55
Speaker 1: and really, as you just said, a belief that what's
19:58
Speaker 1: meant to be is what the outcome will will it
20:01
Speaker 1: will arise. So really an incredible story. And I know
20:05
Speaker 1: you ended up adopting siblings. Is that was that your choice?
20:10
Speaker 1: Was it suggested to you. How did that come about?
20:13
Speaker 3: That also just happened. It just sort of happened. Yeah,
20:19
Speaker 3: it just it worked out. It just worked out that way.
20:22
Speaker 3: We got our son in the beginning of twenty twenty,
20:27
Speaker 3: and then our daughter was born in August, and of
20:32
Speaker 3: course she needed a place to stay and so we
20:36
Speaker 3: were like, we will happily take her in and then yeah,
20:40
Speaker 3: so it just kind of unfolded naturally, incredible and just
20:44
Speaker 3: so beautiful.
20:45
Speaker 1: And prior to hearing your story the two of you
20:48
Speaker 1: going through this, I alwayst thought that it was lucky
20:51
Speaker 1: for the children right to have, you know, parents like
20:55
Speaker 1: the two of you. But I see now it's all
20:58
Speaker 1: of you that you hearing you talk about your children,
21:01
Speaker 1: you just shine and glow and I hear the joy
21:04
Speaker 1: in the laughter. I'm going to bring it back now
21:07
Speaker 1: to Willy. As a pharmacist and as patients, both of you,
21:12
Speaker 1: how did interactions with healthcare professionals, especially pharmacists affect you
21:17
Speaker 1: during infertility and IVF?
21:20
Speaker 4: So, you know, I am a pharmacist, and I guess
21:25
Speaker 4: it just seems like pharmacists are often the most consistent
21:29
Speaker 4: healthcare touch point IVF or really when patients are going
21:35
Speaker 4: through almost anything.
21:36
Speaker 2: It's a lot about the accessibility.
21:39
Speaker 4: I think a lot of it was, you know, just
21:42
Speaker 4: just because the pharmacists are there, you know, they're there,
21:44
Speaker 4: they're a lot more you're seeing them a lot more
21:47
Speaker 4: often than the physician. And I think a lot of
21:51
Speaker 4: it's you know, it's not like the medication counseling or
21:53
Speaker 4: anything that was like that that really stayed with us.
21:57
Speaker 4: A lot of it is just the words they're used,
21:59
Speaker 4: that one that's used, the assumptions that are made, and
22:03
Speaker 4: really just not feeling like we were being interrogated, but
22:08
Speaker 4: really that you know, we were being listened to. And
22:12
Speaker 4: you know that every once in a while, someone someone
22:15
Speaker 4: may really understand they may be going through a similar
22:18
Speaker 4: struggle and that you know, you can be you know,
22:22
Speaker 4: whether it's possible you could be a you know, a shoulder,
22:25
Speaker 4: a crayon, or an ear to bend, or just someone
22:29
Speaker 4: to lean on. But you know, sometimes you know, people
22:32
Speaker 4: are going through things that you don't see and it's
22:34
Speaker 4: often the case and just someone there that you know,
22:38
Speaker 4: can even just appreciate that or just kind of take
22:41
Speaker 4: in that moment, even just with a pause or recognition
22:44
Speaker 4: or just a kind word.
22:46
Speaker 2: You know, you could really make all the difference.
22:49
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and we touched upon this a little bit earlier,
22:51
Speaker 1: but what language or behaviors from healthcare professionals felt supportive
22:56
Speaker 1: and on the flip side, well, unintentionally made things more difficult.
23:01
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily think it's solely just pharmacist, right, I
23:04
Speaker 3: think it's just people in your world in general, but
23:10
Speaker 3: obviously definitely helpful for healthcare professionals in your and pharmacists
23:15
Speaker 3: to be intentional about what they're saying and just being mindful.
23:21
Speaker 3: I think I mentioned before, you know, from stories that
23:24
Speaker 3: I've heard, it seems that patients do oftentimes unload some
23:29
Speaker 3: stories to pharmacists and let them know what's going on
23:32
Speaker 3: in their lives. And I think, as I mentioned, just
23:34
Speaker 3: validating them, just saying you know, I'm sorry you're going
23:39
Speaker 3: through this it sounds like a lot, or just saying
23:43
Speaker 3: things like that are very very helpful. I think sometimes,
23:47
Speaker 3: you know, intention gets wrapped up in what people say,
23:52
Speaker 3: and people have really great intentions and they want to
23:55
Speaker 3: be helpful, but sometimes the most helpful thing is just
23:59
Speaker 3: listening and just acknowledging instead of saying, well, maybe you
24:04
Speaker 3: could try this or at least this didn't happen, or
24:08
Speaker 3: everything happens for a.
24:10
Speaker 1: Reason, you know.
24:11
Speaker 3: I think there's being mindful of your responses. And honestly,
24:16
Speaker 3: it's just listening, just listening and acknowledging words to live by.
24:22
Speaker 1: And it goes hand in hand with parenting or oftentimes
24:26
Speaker 1: a child would come to the parent and state a problem.
24:29
Speaker 1: And where I come from, if you bring me a problem,
24:31
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you my solution or what I'd recommend,
24:34
Speaker 1: And then I had learned about raising my children. Sometimes
24:37
Speaker 1: just stay quiet. They just want someone to listen and
24:41
Speaker 1: they're there to support them. And that's the same situation
24:44
Speaker 1: which doesn't necessarily go in hand with the training of
24:47
Speaker 1: a pharmacist or other healthcare providers. We're the problem solvers
24:51
Speaker 1: and it's not natural for us just to stay quiet
24:54
Speaker 1: and listen. And so this is just great piece of advice, Olivia,
24:59
Speaker 1: for someone for someone listening who is in the middle
25:03
Speaker 1: of infertility or who simply cannot afford to keep trying,
25:07
Speaker 1: what do you want them to know right now?
25:09
Speaker 4: I guess I just want them to know that their
25:12
Speaker 4: worth is not proportional to how much they can spend
25:16
Speaker 4: or how long they can endure this process. You know,
25:20
Speaker 4: it's not intended to be a moral test, and it's
25:23
Speaker 4: not really intended to you know, test your financial limits.
25:27
Speaker 4: And you know none of these are personal failures. You know, stop, pause, pivot, whatever,
25:34
Speaker 4: whatever it is, just you know, take a step back,
25:37
Speaker 4: you know, to to kind of reflect. And then, you know,
25:41
Speaker 4: as a pharmacist, and as you know, many who are
25:44
Speaker 4: listening are pharmacists, just also you know, realize and maybe
25:48
Speaker 4: better understand that oftentimes this is kind of a result
25:52
Speaker 4: of it could be like health inequities, it could be
25:56
Speaker 4: access barriers, and it's rarely lack of desires. A lot
26:01
Speaker 4: of it really just comes down to just being there,
26:06
Speaker 4: just understanding a little bit more of what you know
26:09
Speaker 4: someone may be going through and realize, you know that
26:12
Speaker 4: every family looks a little bit different. There's really no
26:16
Speaker 4: nothing that's linear or nothing that is just I guess assumed.
26:20
Speaker 4: And I think from there that is a very nice,
26:25
Speaker 4: you know, starting point how to build that much needed
26:28
Speaker 4: trust and respect between the patient and the pharmacists.
26:34
Speaker 1: And that's our goal as pharmacists, right we're the most
26:36
Speaker 1: trusted healthcare provider and the most accessible and what you
26:41
Speaker 1: just described fits that in line with the modern family.
26:45
Speaker 1: Family is what you make of it, what you create,
26:48
Speaker 1: and it might not always be what you had expected
26:50
Speaker 1: when you were younger growing up, or getting married or
26:53
Speaker 1: have a significant other, and it is your decision and
26:56
Speaker 1: nobody else's. And I know that mom guilt can kick
27:00
Speaker 1: in really early, as soon as you even think about
27:02
Speaker 1: becoming a mom. Olivia, right, I've dealt with it in
27:05
Speaker 1: other situations. And my piece of advice here having not
27:09
Speaker 1: gone through this bringing it back to what you were
27:12
Speaker 1: just saying, what your journey is is just that, and
27:17
Speaker 1: it doesn't correlate to your self worth or your ability
27:22
Speaker 1: to parents, and what you've created is just absolutely this
27:25
Speaker 1: beautiful family that is yours and unique as each family
27:29
Speaker 1: is out there, any last pieces of advice, Willy, you
27:33
Speaker 1: were my mentor as a pharmacist, but now the two
27:36
Speaker 1: of you are this guiding light and shining example of
27:40
Speaker 1: beautiful outcomes in the case that pregnancy journey that you
27:44
Speaker 1: had envisioned doesn't come to fruition and you pivot, Willy,
27:48
Speaker 1: as you said, and have different outcomes in the end.
27:51
Speaker 1: That is your own personal journey and it can be
27:54
Speaker 1: just fantastic as well.
27:56
Speaker 3: I just yeah, I wanted to add a little bit
27:59
Speaker 3: to that kind of what you just mentioned is the
28:01
Speaker 3: mom guilt. I think it's really common for people to
28:06
Speaker 3: feel guilty or feel like, what's wrong with my body
28:10
Speaker 3: or something's wrong with me, And I think it's important
28:12
Speaker 3: for people to remember that it's not their fault. It's
28:15
Speaker 3: happening to you, it's not your body's fault. And I
28:18
Speaker 3: think it's important for people to remember to talk about
28:20
Speaker 3: it and remember that it's okay to talk about it.
28:24
Speaker 3: I think it's something that's being talked more about now
28:27
Speaker 3: than it was even when we were going through this.
28:30
Speaker 3: Just the amount of women that I've even spoken to
28:32
Speaker 3: about miscarriages or their ivy after journeys or infertility, like,
28:36
Speaker 3: it's not roses, it's not always perfect. There's a lot
28:42
Speaker 3: of there's a lot of health stuff that comes with
28:44
Speaker 3: it and things that can happen. And you know, the
28:47
Speaker 3: crazy thing was, when we were going through our infertility journey,
28:51
Speaker 3: I didn't even realize my best friend was going through
28:53
Speaker 3: a similar thing because we were both afraid to talk
28:56
Speaker 3: about it. And so I think it's just a reminder
28:59
Speaker 3: that it's it's okay that you're going through it and
29:02
Speaker 3: that you should got.
29:02
Speaker 1: It and if anyone else is listening to this, this
29:06
Speaker 1: is why we're doing this recording today, this interviewed today,
29:10
Speaker 1: because we want these to be topics of conversation to
29:13
Speaker 1: normalize this experience. I'm so grateful to be able to
29:17
Speaker 1: host this, and I've learned so much and supported so
29:20
Speaker 1: many others now through stillbirths, through miscarriage, through IVF, and
29:25
Speaker 1: now we're going to add to these unique journeys fostering
29:29
Speaker 1: and potentially adopting as well. Olivia Willie, thank you so much.
29:35
Speaker 1: My goal would just be for retail pharmacists to have
29:38
Speaker 1: this information readily available at the counter, just like we
29:42
Speaker 1: do with medication treatment. If somebody wanted to look into
29:46
Speaker 1: being a foster parent and you didn't have family connections
29:49
Speaker 1: as you do, where do you go? Do you just
29:51
Speaker 1: google what's nearby? What would be the best place to
29:55
Speaker 1: find information?
29:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it varies depending on where you live.
30:00
Speaker 3: Definitely checking out just local foster care facilities or foster
30:05
Speaker 3: care information. It just varies depending on where you live.
30:08
Speaker 4: So it's often through your own county. So I guess
30:11
Speaker 4: you could even just google foster care with your own county.
30:15
Speaker 4: That is the case, you know, for us that with
30:17
Speaker 4: the county that we're in, you could even go to
30:20
Speaker 4: adopt us kids dot org. They have you know, a
30:24
Speaker 4: whole bunch of resources there. They can point one in
30:27
Speaker 4: the right direction as well, because I do think you know,
30:30
Speaker 4: this is very important to share with our audience, and
30:34
Speaker 4: you know, like I said, even if it can impact
30:36
Speaker 4: on one person, then you know this is meaningful work.
30:40
Speaker 1: Olivia Willie, thank you so much for sharing your story,
30:44
Speaker 1: your journey. It has not always been easy, but these outcomes,
30:47
Speaker 1: the family you've created is just one to be admired
30:51
Speaker 1: and I greatly appreciate your time today and supporting others
30:54
Speaker 1: going through a difficult path as well.
30:56
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, thank you, Thank you to