Latest / Becker’s Healthcare Podcast / Dr. Michael Han on Ambient AI and Governance Strategy at MultiCare Health System

Transcript

Dr. Michael Han on Ambient AI and Governance Strategy at MultiCare Health System · Becker’s Healthcare Podcast

• 0:01
  This is where health care leadership comes together.
• 0:04
  Becker's sixteenth annual meeting brings more than 3,500
• 0:07
  hospital and health system executives and nearly 800
• 0:10
  speakers to Chicago
• 0:12
  April.
• 0:14
  This year's event includes keynote conversations with Dallas
• 0:17
  Cowboys legend Troy Aikman and former president George
• 0:20
  w Bush. For the agenda and event details,
• 0:22
  visit beckershospitalreview.com
• 0:25
  and click on the events tab in the
• 0:26
  upper right. We're looking forward to hosting you
• 0:29
  in Chicago.
• 0:31
  This is Laura Dirdo with the Becker's Healthcare
• 0:34
  podcast. I'm thrilled today to be joined by
• 0:36
  doctor Michael Hahn, vice president and chief medical
• 0:38
  information officer at MultiCare Health System. Doctor Hahn,
• 0:41
  it's a pleasure to have you on the
• 0:42
  podcast today. Thanks for having me this morning.
• 0:45
  Now I'm excited for our conversation because I
• 0:47
  know we'll spotlight some of the cool things
• 0:49
  you're doing at MultiCare as well as dig
• 0:51
  into your perspective on the future. But before
• 0:53
  we do, can you tell us a little
• 0:54
  bit more about yourself and MultiCare?
• 0:57
  Sure.
• 0:57
  So my name is Mike Han. I am
• 0:59
  a urologist by background.
• 1:02
  I don't practice urology anymore, but, I I
• 1:05
  do I do actually miss it.
• 1:07
  I've,
• 1:08
  been here at MultiCare Health System,
• 1:11
  as the chief medical information officer for almost
• 1:14
  five years.
• 1:15
  Yeah. And MultiCare is a 13 hospital,
• 1:18
  about 2,300
• 1:19
  bed,
• 1:20
  integrated delivery network based out of Tacoma, Washington.
• 1:24
  We have a very large behavioral health footprint.
• 1:27
  We have about 25,000
• 1:28
  employees,
• 1:29
  about 3,000 physicians,
• 1:31
  and,
• 1:32
  and our our mission here,
• 1:34
  in in the Pacific Northwest is to be
• 1:36
  the highest value system of health, in the
• 1:39
  Pacific Northwest.
• 1:40
  So,
• 1:41
  I'm really happy to be able to talk
• 1:43
  to you about what we're doing here at
• 1:44
  MultiCare.
• 1:46
  Fantastic. Now
• 1:48
  in in thinking through, you know, kind of
• 1:50
  the last year or so, could you tell
• 1:51
  us about an initiative that you led? What
• 1:53
  did you do, and what were the results?
• 1:55
  I think that the the the most important
• 1:57
  thing that that we did
• 1:59
  at MultiCare,
• 2:01
  you know, from,
• 2:02
  IT
• 2:03
  technology
• 2:04
  standpoint was,
• 2:06
  an evaluation
• 2:07
  of three different ambient clinical documentation
• 2:10
  vendors.
• 2:11
  So, you know, early on in
• 2:13
  in in 2024,
• 2:16
  we we trialed,
• 2:17
  I would say, you know, a legacy vendor
• 2:19
  in this space. They were they they were
• 2:21
  first to market. We we started with a
• 2:23
  pilot of about a 100 licenses.
• 2:25
  And and it was interesting, in that we
• 2:27
  thought that, you know, it it was pretty
• 2:30
  sure that this would be an immediate game
• 2:32
  changer for our physicians,
• 2:34
  and APPs.
• 2:36
  What and and what we found was was
• 2:37
  that it did indeed reduce time and documentation,
• 2:41
  but it did not decrease time in chart.
• 2:44
  It did not decrease time,
• 2:47
  after scheduled hours,
• 2:49
  and it didn't increase productivity.
• 2:52
  Subjectively,
• 2:53
  our our positions in APP absolutely love this
• 2:56
  product. They they thought it was they thought
• 2:58
  it was great.
• 3:00
  We did have some churn,
• 3:02
  in in in that pilot, but after about
• 3:05
  a year or so,
• 3:06
  you know, we saw other products
• 3:08
  that were coming to market, and,
• 3:10
  we were really interested. And so,
• 3:13
  we engaged with two other vendors, and so
• 3:15
  we had a total of three vendors,
• 3:17
  in 2025.
• 3:19
  And we,
• 3:21
  enrolled about 550
• 3:23
  physicians in APPs,
• 3:25
  into,
• 3:26
  what we call the Bake Off.
• 3:28
  You know, the postcode during COVID, we my
• 3:31
  family and I spent a lot of time
• 3:32
  watching the the Great British Baking Show. And
• 3:34
  so we we ended up calling it the
• 3:36
  Bake Off,
• 3:37
  and and we were able to evaluate,
• 3:40
  all three of the vendors.
• 3:42
  And our and our providers actually had a
• 3:44
  a a very clear favorite.
• 3:46
  The way that we,
• 3:47
  evaluated this, again, you know, was with the
• 3:50
  the those user activity log metrics that that
• 3:53
  that I just mentioned, time in chart, time
• 3:55
  in time in documentation,
• 3:57
  time in, time spent after hours.
• 3:59
  We we also looked at productivity,
• 4:02
  from an RVU standpoint
• 4:04
  as well as HCC coding and RAF scores.
• 4:08
  And then lastly,
• 4:10
  we asked our providers to fill out a
• 4:12
  a survey,
• 4:13
  and the the survey was quite eye opening.
• 4:16
  The number one, we got we got a
• 4:18
  greater than 5050%
• 4:19
  response rate on that survey. And if you've
• 4:22
  ever tried to survey physicians and APPs, you
• 4:24
  know that that that response rates can be
• 4:26
  quite difficult.
• 4:28
  And
• 4:29
  we we we were quite pleased with our
• 4:31
  results. I think that the most important result
• 4:33
  that we took home from this
• 4:35
  was that prior to
• 4:37
  using an ambient clinical documentation tool,
• 4:40
  sixty, six zero percent of our physicians and
• 4:44
  APPs,
• 4:46
  experienced at least one symptom of burnout.
• 4:48
  After using the ambient clinical documentation tool,
• 4:52
  sixteen, one six percent,
• 4:54
  of our physicians and APPs using the tool,
• 4:57
  were experiencing at least one symptom of burnout.
• 4:59
  And so we were able to reduce
• 5:01
  symptoms of burnout by seventy five percent,
• 5:05
  which was astounding.
• 5:06
  Prior to the trial, about eleven percent of
• 5:08
  our physicians and APPs,
• 5:10
  said that they enjoyed their work.
• 5:13
  At the end of the trial. We were
• 5:15
  able to move that needle to thirty seven
• 5:17
  percent,
• 5:18
  and and this is agnostic
• 5:20
  of ambient clinical documentation vendor.
• 5:23
  And so, you know, I I I made
• 5:24
  the statement at health, in October. If you're
• 5:26
  not at least looking at an ambient clinical
• 5:28
  documentation tool for your your physicians and APPs,
• 5:31
  you don't care about your physicians and APPs.
• 5:34
  And I'm quite serious. I think that this
• 5:36
  is you know, after, you know, two and
• 5:39
  a half years,
• 5:40
  this is game changing technology.
• 5:42
  And and and and our physicians and APPs
• 5:45
  are are clamoring for it.
• 5:47
  We,
• 5:48
  are are ramping our our choice for the
• 5:51
  solution quite quickly. And so we're we're we're
• 5:54
  we're we're super
• 5:56
  super,
• 5:57
  excited about,
• 5:59
  scaling,
• 6:00
  this technology to the rest of our positions
• 6:02
  and APPs here in 2026.
• 6:06
  That's fascinating to hear. You know, I I
• 6:08
  love that approach of being able to not
• 6:10
  necessarily jump on the first thing, or or
• 6:13
  technology company that you worked with,
• 6:16
  on on the Ambient, but then, you know,
• 6:18
  seeing as other companies came out with additional
• 6:21
  products and and being able to put them
• 6:23
  against each other in a bake off, quote,
• 6:25
  unquote is, you know, so such a fun
• 6:27
  and cool idea. And, you know, when you
• 6:29
  were looking at,
• 6:30
  how your clinicians and APPs are providing feedback
• 6:34
  and and really playing a role in identifying,
• 6:37
  you know, which company you you'll,
• 6:39
  go with, How do you really keep that
• 6:41
  all organized and make sure that you are,
• 6:44
  you know, truly gaining the impact and ROI
• 6:46
  and value from each of those different opportunities
• 6:50
  as you're looking at the pilots and then
• 6:51
  deciding which one to scale throughout the organization?
• 6:55
  I I think that that it you know,
• 6:57
  it's it's continuing to monitor the utilization data.
• 7:01
  I I think that it's, you know, when
• 7:03
  you're looking at one of these tools, I
• 7:05
  think that you certainly wanna look at the
• 7:07
  number of seats that that you have.
• 7:09
  But but you also wanna look at the
• 7:11
  the encounter utilization. So what percentage of encounters
• 7:14
  is this tool being used for?
• 7:17
  I think that when we as we're negotiating
• 7:19
  the contract,
• 7:21
  the thing that I appreciated the most,
• 7:24
  about,
• 7:25
  the vendors was willingness to go at risk.
• 7:29
  Because we have this data in terms of
• 7:31
  utilization, because we have this data
• 7:34
  based on on adoption, because we have this
• 7:36
  data,
• 7:38
  on productivity,
• 7:40
  we were able to sit down with, you
• 7:42
  know, quite frankly, all of the vendors and
• 7:44
  say,
• 7:45
  okay. Let's talk about going at risk.
• 7:48
  And, you know, if we don't see an
• 7:50
  improvement in our top line revenue,
• 7:52
  if we don't see an improvement in burnout,
• 7:54
  if we don't see an improvement in productivity,
• 7:57
  then, you know, our fees are discounted
• 8:00
  or or, you you know, you get paid
• 8:02
  less money. And and and it was you
• 8:04
  know, they they were quite willing to sit
• 8:06
  down and talk to us about that, and
• 8:08
  and that was,
• 8:10
  and I think that it goes to show
• 8:12
  the the confidence that these vendors have in
• 8:14
  their product.
• 8:15
  And so I'm,
• 8:18
  I think that that's certainly one way that
• 8:19
  I that that that we're looking at this.
• 8:21
  And and hopefully, look looking at, you know,
• 8:24
  implementation of any sort of any other
• 8:27
  technology based tools or, you know, I'm gonna
• 8:29
  say AI based tools,
• 8:31
  because, you know, our CFO is really looking
• 8:33
  at at at at a return on investment.
• 8:37
  Absolutely. Which is, you know, so critical across
• 8:39
  the board. I know every health care dollar
• 8:41
  is precious,
• 8:42
  and especially those that are coming through, you
• 8:45
  know, for for different,
• 8:47
  tasks in in in aspects of the organization.
• 8:50
  So I think looking ahead for 2026, what
• 8:52
  are some of the big priorities and headwinds
• 8:54
  that you have your eye on right now?
• 8:57
  I think that in 2026,
• 8:59
  that that I'm trying to focus in on
• 9:01
  is is AI governance.
• 9:03
  I think that, you know, here at MultiCare,
• 9:06
  we've done a fairly good job,
• 9:10
  of standing up,
• 9:11
  AI governance
• 9:13
  and understanding intake
• 9:15
  and how it fits into our overall new
• 9:17
  software governance
• 9:19
  process.
• 9:20
  We we,
• 9:22
  have embedded,
• 9:23
  both AI governance and data governance into our
• 9:26
  new software request process.
• 9:29
  And and so we're doing a fairly good
• 9:32
  job of keeping up with net new vendors
• 9:35
  to our environment,
• 9:37
  as well as,
• 9:38
  you know, new,
• 9:40
  capabilities that are being introduced by our existing
• 9:44
  vendors.
• 9:45
  And so, we have a multidisciplinary
• 9:48
  AI governance committee that that I helped to
• 9:50
  lead,
• 9:51
  that that is keeping up with, you know,
• 9:53
  that's
• 9:54
  the sort of new,
• 9:56
  capabilities that are being introduced. You know, where
• 9:59
  where I think that there is significant opportunity
• 10:02
  for for us,
• 10:05
  is to
• 10:06
  come up with a a plan on how
• 10:09
  to monitor
• 10:11
  those vendors and and and, and software,
• 10:14
  that is in our stack. How do we
• 10:16
  monitor,
• 10:17
  these applications
• 10:19
  for
• 10:20
  bias, safety,
• 10:21
  drift,
• 10:22
  compliance,
• 10:24
  and ROI.
• 10:25
  Right? And and, you know, my dream would
• 10:27
  be to sort of have a a a
• 10:28
  single pane of glass where where I can
• 10:31
  I can look and say, okay? Well, this
• 10:33
  ambient clinical documentation vendor,
• 10:35
  or, you know, this radiology
• 10:38
  AI vendor,
• 10:39
  is it delivering
• 10:41
  on on what
• 10:42
  what what what they said they would deliver?
• 10:45
  And and and is it safe and and
• 10:48
  bias free and drift free?
• 10:51
  So that way, we feel good about,
• 10:53
  this from a patient and,
• 10:56
  physician and clinician
• 10:58
  perspective.
• 10:59
  And so that's that's really what what what
• 11:01
  I'm hoping to focus on for, 2026.
• 11:05
  I I mean, there are other areas that
• 11:07
  that are certainly, I think, coming of age.
• 11:10
  I think that that that voice,
• 11:13
  is is certainly
• 11:15
  quite interesting. And and I also,
• 11:17
  am am curious
• 11:19
  about
• 11:21
  applying agents
• 11:22
  to certain parts of our administrative workflow.
• 11:25
  But again, I think, you know,
• 11:27
  if we wanna have nice things
• 11:29
  and and certainly AI and and
• 11:33
  and and, you know, the technologies that are
• 11:35
  being developed at this point, are those nice
• 11:37
  things? I think that we need to have
• 11:38
  that sort of governance
• 11:40
  safety
• 11:41
  layer,
• 11:42
  put in place in order to to to
• 11:44
  make the most use of these tools.
• 11:48
  Absolutely. I think that's such a great point
• 11:49
  in, you know, having that,
• 11:52
  more structured governance and safety.
• 11:54
  You know, I know in some ways
• 11:57
  slows things down a bit, but also make
• 11:58
  sure that you're moving forward,
• 12:01
  in not putting yourself at risk and could
• 12:02
  actually unleash a bit more of a, you
• 12:05
  know, potential there too. And so when you
• 12:07
  think about that governance process, who's typically involved
• 12:11
  in that and and how,
• 12:13
  what's important, I guess, today to make sure
• 12:14
  you're including? Because I know the world of
• 12:16
  AI especially is evolving so quickly, and it
• 12:19
  seems like in many respects, it can be,
• 12:21
  you know, challenging to keep up once you,
• 12:23
  you know, start putting the process in place.
• 12:25
  And then,
• 12:26
  it almost becomes obsolete,
• 12:28
  in a couple of months just because, the
• 12:30
  way the technology is changing.
• 12:32
  Because, like, you know, I I try and
• 12:33
  look you know, as an informaticist, I try
• 12:35
  and look at a lot of things through
• 12:38
  a lens of people process
• 12:40
  and technology or supported by technology.
• 12:43
  So, you know, I'm I'm very proud of
• 12:45
  the the the AI governance committee that we've
• 12:47
  stood up. It includes,
• 12:49
  you know, medical leaders,
• 12:52
  pharmacy leaders,
• 12:54
  nursing leaders.
• 12:56
  It includes, you know, our chief compliance officer,
• 12:59
  members of our legal and risk team,
• 13:02
  you know, people who are just interested in
• 13:04
  AI.
• 13:04
  I think that the one voice that that
• 13:07
  we are missing
• 13:08
  is the patient voice,
• 13:10
  in this. And and, you know, we we
• 13:13
  are all patients, but but,
• 13:16
  I am thoughtful
• 13:18
  about that that part of this, quote, unquote,
• 13:20
  people,
• 13:21
  equation.
• 13:22
  I think that the, you know, we have
• 13:24
  like I said, we we we have nailed
• 13:26
  down
• 13:27
  the process. Nailed down is probably a little
• 13:29
  bit too strong of a word, but I
• 13:30
  think that we we we're, you know, developing
• 13:32
  the process,
• 13:34
  in terms of how we govern,
• 13:36
  again, net new capabilities, whether it's through an
• 13:38
  existing vendor or a new vendor.
• 13:40
  But
• 13:41
  I think that we we're really gonna need
• 13:43
  technology to help us,
• 13:45
  with the the the monitoring
• 13:47
  of those applications,
• 13:49
  within our environment. And so, you know, I've
• 13:51
  seen some promising,
• 13:53
  vendors out there, and and and I'm certainly
• 13:56
  hopeful that over the course of the, the
• 13:58
  next year or so, we're able to to
• 14:00
  continue to develop that area.
• 14:02
  That's helpful to understand. Thank you for digging
• 14:05
  a bit deeper there. Now, what do you
• 14:07
  think, the hardest thing you'll have to do
• 14:08
  in the coming year will be?
• 14:11
  I think that the hardest thing that that
• 14:13
  that we do in in general is having
• 14:15
  to prioritize,
• 14:16
  with limited resources.
• 14:18
  I I think that that, you know, health
• 14:20
  care systems
• 14:22
  have always had very slim margins,
• 14:24
  and and I think that there are certainly,
• 14:27
  financial headwinds that we're looking at,
• 14:31
  over the course of the next couple of
• 14:32
  years.
• 14:33
  And and how do we continue to deliver,
• 14:36
  you know, cutting edge technology
• 14:38
  for our clinicians
• 14:40
  to take better care of our patients
• 14:42
  in an era where, you know, every dollar
• 14:44
  is so important?
• 14:46
  Absolutely. I I think that makes a lot
• 14:48
  of sense. And, you know, having that ability
• 14:51
  to prioritize and then knowing, you know, what
• 14:53
  to say no to and how to,
• 14:55
  you know,
• 14:57
  either say no overall or or,
• 15:00
  you know, come back to it later.
• 15:02
  It seems like a skill that
• 15:04
  is has not always needed to be as
• 15:06
  sharp as it is today, just because there
• 15:08
  are so many options in place.
• 15:10
  Before we wrap up here, I wanted to
• 15:12
  know what are you most excited about for
• 15:14
  the future as well?
• 15:16
  So I I gotta say, you know, the
• 15:19
  the the the the data that I presented
• 15:21
  earlier today
• 15:23
  regarding the any symptom of burnout from 60
• 15:26
  to sixteen percent and enjoyment of work from
• 15:28
  10 to to to thirty seven percent.
• 15:31
  You know, I've done informatics for the last
• 15:33
  fifteen years. I've never seen anything move the
• 15:36
  needle like that,
• 15:37
  you know. And and
• 15:39
  I sit up there as a physician leader
• 15:41
  over ten years ago talking about meaningful use,
• 15:44
  knowing that that a lot of what we
• 15:45
  were pushing wasn't necessarily meaningful.
• 15:48
  I'm extremely
• 15:50
  optimistic
• 15:51
  about about what is being produced
• 15:54
  now in in the technology realm, that we're
• 15:57
  actually going to do a a lot more
• 15:59
  meaningful things, and we're actually gonna be able
• 16:01
  to change we're actually gonna be able to
• 16:03
  move the needle, you know, bend the curve,
• 16:04
  whatever you wanna use,
• 16:07
  for our patients, and our clinicians,
• 16:10
  over the next five to ten years. I
• 16:12
  think that large language models, artificial intelligence,
• 16:15
  it's truly gonna truly gonna change the way
• 16:18
  that we we we deliver health care in
• 16:20
  this country, and I'm just really excited to
• 16:22
  be a part of that.
• 16:24
  I love that. Doctor Han, thank you so
• 16:25
  much for joining us on the podcast today.
• 16:27
  This has been a fantastic conversation, and, you
• 16:30
  know, I'm looking forward to seeing you as
• 16:31
  well at our,
• 16:33
  annual meeting coming up here in April. It'll
• 16:35
  be great to catch up a bit and,
• 16:37
  you know, continue this conversation.
• 16:39
  Great. Thank you so much for having me.