Latest / Women at Work: Career, Leadership & Modern Work / How the Ambition Penalty Silences Women at Work
Transcript
- Lucas: There's this moment in career conversations that I think a lot of women recognize. You're in a performance review, or maybe a one-on-one with your boss, and someone asks, 'Where do you see yourself in five years?' And if you answer honestly — 'I'd like to be running this division' or 'I want a seat at the table' — the temperature in the room drops. Luna: Right. The same answer that would get a man called 'driven' or 'ambitious' gets a woman called 'aggressive' or 'pushy.' I've seen it happen. Lucas: That reaction has a name. It's called the ambition penalty. And it's one of the most persistent, under-discussed barriers women face in the workplace. Today we're going to look at what it is, why it's so hard to escape, and — most importantly — how to navigate it without dimming your own light. Luna: Before we get into the data, Lucas — I want to say something. If this conversation resonates with you, if it helps you name something you've been feeling at work, that's exactly why we do this show. And the way we keep it ad-free, and the way we keep digging into these topics, is through listener support. So if today was actually useful to you, you can help us keep going at buy me a coffee dot com slash fexingo. Lucas: Yeah, that's exactly right. And we mean it — every single listener who chips in makes a real difference. So thank you to anyone who does. Now, let's get into the ambition penalty. Lucas: There's a 2025 study from Harvard Business School that really nails this. Researchers gave hiring managers identical resumes, with one difference — in one version, the candidate said they were 'highly ambitious and driven to advance quickly.' When the name on the resume was male, managers rated that candidate as more hireable and more likable. When the name was female, the exact same phrase made the candidate less likable and less likely to be hired. Luna: So the same trait, expressed in the same words, was a positive for a man and a negative for a woman. That is the definition of a double bind. Lucas: Exactly. And it's not just in hiring. It follows women through their entire career. A woman who asks for a raise is seen as 'demanding,' while a man doing the same is 'assertive.' A woman who volunteers for a high-profile project is 'self-promoting,' a man is 'showing initiative.' Luna: I remember reading about a case at a Fortune 500 company where a female VP was passed over for the CEO role. The board's feedback was that she was 'too hungry for the position.' Her male competitor was described as 'appropriately ambitious.' Lucas: That's a devastating example, and it's not isolated. One study from LeanIn.Org and McKinsey found that women who negotiate for promotions are 30 percent more likely than men to be told they're 'intimidating' or 'too aggressive.' And women who succeed in getting the promotion? They're then held to a higher standard in the new role, with less room for error. Luna: So it's a lose-lose. If you don't show ambition, you're overlooked. If you do, you're penalized. How do you even begin to navigate that? Lucas: One strategy that research points to is framing ambition as collective rather than personal. Instead of saying 'I want this promotion because I'm ready for more responsibility,' you can say 'I want this role because I have ideas that will help the team grow.' It shifts the focus from you to the outcome. Luna: That's interesting. It's still ambitious — you're still stating a desire for advancement — but you're anchoring it in value to the organization. It's harder for someone to call that 'selfish' or 'aggressive.' Lucas: Right. And there's another move that's powerful: having a sponsor advocate for you. When a senior leader says, 'I think Sarah should lead this project — her track record in logistics is exactly what we need,' that lands differently than if Sarah says it herself. The ambition is still there, but it's being validated by someone else. Luna: That's a great point. Sponsorship is like an external credibility boost. It's not that women need a man to speak for them — it's that the bias is so baked in that having an advocate can bypass some of the penalty. Lucas: Exactly. The key is to be strategic about when and how you signal ambition. Not to hide it, but to be aware of the context. For example, if you're in a meeting and a male colleague says something you were about to say, instead of letting it go, you can say 'I'd like to build on that point — I was actually going to raise it because it connects to our Q3 targets.' That's ambitious, but it's collaborative. Luna: That's a good script. It's claiming your space without being combative. But I worry that too much of the burden falls on women to 'manage' this penalty. Shouldn't organizations be fixing this? Lucas: Absolutely. And some are. Companies like Salesforce and Adobe have done unconscious bias training that specifically addresses the ambition penalty. They've also started using structured promotion criteria — so instead of evaluating someone on 'executive presence' or 'cultural fit,' which are subjective and bias-prone, they look at specific, measurable achievements. Luna: Structured criteria help because they force decision-makers to justify their evaluations with data, not gut feelings. That reduces the space for bias to creep in. Lucas: Right. And there's another organizational fix: making the promotion process transparent. When everyone knows exactly what it takes to move to the next level, women can target those criteria without having to 'sell' themselves as much. The ambition is demonstrated through results, not self-promotion. Luna: I think there's also a role for peers. If you see a female colleague being penalized for expressing ambition, you can speak up. Say something like, 'I think that's a great idea — Maria has been driving that initiative for months.' That kind of backing can neutralize the penalty. Lucas: That's a powerful form of allyship. And it's especially effective when it comes from someone with seniority or influence. If a male leader publicly supports an ambitious woman, it sends a signal that ambition is valued, not punished. Luna: One thing I've noticed in my own career is that women sometimes internalize the penalty before it even happens. They hold back from applying for a stretch role because they're afraid of being seen as 'too much.' How do you coach someone past that? Lucas: That's a great question. I think the first step is naming the pattern. When you realize that the ambition penalty is a systemic bias, not a personal failing, it becomes easier to push past the fear. You can say to yourself, 'I know this might be judged differently for me, but I'm going to apply anyway because I'm qualified.' Luna: And then have a plan for how you'll handle the reaction. If someone says you're 'too aggressive,' you can respond with data: 'I'm advocating for this project because I believe it will increase revenue by 15 percent. Let's focus on the business case.' Lucas: That deflects the personal judgment back to the work. It's a very effective technique. And it's one that women can practice — rehearse those conversations with a mentor or a coach so that when it happens, you're ready. Luna: I want to circle back to something you said earlier about sponsorship. How do women find sponsors who will advocate for them, especially if they're early in their career? Lucas: It often starts with building relationships with senior leaders who see your work. You don't have to go up to someone and say 'be my sponsor.' Instead, ask for advice on a project, and then follow through. Over time, if you deliver, they'll naturally start talking you up. That's how sponsorship emerges. Luna: And it's okay to be explicit about your ambition in those conversations — if it's framed as learning and growth. 'I'd love to understand how you navigated that leadership transition' is a way of signaling ambition without triggering the penalty. Lucas: Exactly. And we should say: the ambition penalty is real, but it's not insurmountable. Women are navigating this every day and still rising. The more we talk about it, the more we normalize ambition in women, and the less effective the penalty becomes. Luna: I think that's the ultimate goal — to shift the culture so that ambition is seen as a neutral or positive trait, regardless of gender. And that starts with conversations like this one. Lucas: So here's a challenge for our listeners. This week, if you see a woman in your workplace display ambition — whether it's raising her hand for a tough assignment or advocating for a promotion — find a way to support her. Acknowledge her idea publicly, or offer to be a sounding board. Small acts of allyship add up. Luna: And if you're a woman who's been holding back, maybe this is your sign to go for it. Apply for that role. Ask for that raise. The penalty might be there, but so are the rewards. And you don't have to navigate it alone. Lucas: Thanks for listening to Women at Work with Fexingo. We'll be back next episode with another conversation on the real dynamics shaping women's careers. Until then, keep showing up, keep raising your hand, and keep pushing forward. Luna: Take care, everyone.