Latest / Caught on the Mike... / "Life on the other side of it"- with divorce strategist Terrie Vanover

Transcript

"Life on the other side of it"- with divorce strategist Terrie Vanover · Caught on the Mike...

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Warning due to some language and subject matter, listener discretion is advised.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: In all my years on this earth, I have never known a single person that has chosen to get married with the intent on that marriage failing.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yet the divorce rate for first-time marriages is currently sitting at 49%.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: What is the root cause of this escalated number?
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Are there gender-specific roles that cause this number to increase?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And what influence has social media had over the current divorce rate?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's an uncomfortable set of questions, but something I hope my next guest can help us answer.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Joining me on the podcast today is Terry Vanover.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: She is a divorce strategist and proprietor of the website choosingTorise.com.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to share some stories and hopefully make the holiday season of 2021 a little easier on everybody.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, this is Caught on the Mike.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Harry Vanover, how the heck are you?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm awesome.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Are you guys ready for Christmas?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we are traveling, so we'll have to get everything pre-done.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: And the good news is with all the shipping and everything, it makes it easier.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: So we're we're almost ready.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: We did our cookies last weekend, and then next weekend my kids are with uh my ex-husband.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it does make it a little bit, we have to kind of pre-do a lot of holiday things and plan ahead.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: There's this, I'm so excited for the season, though.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we rehearsed this because you kind of teed off the topic of this particular episode of the show because I'm doing the same exact thing.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh shared parenting, split parenting time, where you're just kind of looking at those schedules and you're like, okay, we do an exchange on this day.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna do our Christmas on this day, mom's gonna do her Christmas on that day, and uh everybody's happy, but it's all it's all for the kids, right?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot wait to talk about like co-parenting and divorce baggage and all that good stuff.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so excited to be here with you, Mike.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: I just cannot thank you enough.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've been listening to your podcast and I've just been loving it, enjoying the energy, and I'm so excited to be here.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm like one of the cool kids now.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm the cool kids because you and I have been talking for the better part of the year, off and on, trying to make this happen.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think since early spring, even.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I love how we we had that like understanding between us with the blended families.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, look, and you were like, these are the days I have my kids, and I'm like, these are the days my I have mine.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: So how can we because I get I get it though, like I get the priority, you know.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, so I'm glad we were able to make this happen.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you've always been one of the cool kids, as far as I can tell.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So here's an opportunity, here's your opportunity to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I am a divorce strategist who helps divorce professionals navigate the overwhelm and avoid the mistakes that leave them emotionally, financially, and legally devastated.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: But just as importantly, I show people how to heal from their divorce baggage and traumas so that they can go forward in this new chapter and have happy, healthy relationships with themselves and with their exes and with their future relationships.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, what brought you onto that path?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: I love this question.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I got to give a little bit of background, and you probably hear my accent.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's usually the first question people like, where are you from?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I grew up just, you know, a poor country girl from Virginia.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: My mom was a single mom.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: She had, you know, two little girls, and she didn't have much of an education, didn't have, um, we didn't have much in terms of like money.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: And um, my biological father was, you know, I think we call it a functioning alcoholic today, and he definitely chose alcohol over us.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: And um, what little, little visitation that we had was, I would say, negative, you know, the few visits that we had.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I had a lot of abandonment issues.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: I had a lot of shame from from being poor and you know, not having enough.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I was sexually abused as a child by a family member.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And all of this childhood trauma really bled into my adulthood.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: I felt insecure, not enough, unlovable.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And where this particularly showed up was in my marriage.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was, I have to confess, I was not a good wife.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: I was needy, I was insecure, I was controlling because it'll really lead to a lot of control issues.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I really just was like an unending pit that could not get enough love.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: I really don't feel like there's anything that my ex-husband could have done, you know, that would have made me really happy because I had a lot of unresolved issues.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: And within a few short years, here I was, was a single mom in divorce with two very young children, repeating my mother's uh pattern.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I lost everything in my divorce.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: I made the mistakes that everyone makes, that most people make, I would should say.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: I lost my home, I lost all my financial security, I lost family and friends.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: I made, you know, huge mistakes as far as like the legal, you know, navigating that process, which ended up, you know, bankrupting me.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then I lost my mom, my support system, I lost my health because I was hit by a van while riding my bike one one day, and just it just like uh continued down this downward spiral.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like the darkest, darkest time of my life.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I will say I don't regret it for a minute because it did lead me to this path of healing, helping others and serving others because it was really kind of like, you know, I I know you probably hear this on the podcast all it's it's your awakening.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's it you kind of have to go through the darkness to experience the awakening.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it was in that loneliness and recognizing that this loneliness that I felt both during my marriage and post-divorce that was still like eating me alive, that I was like, okay, sister, you you have got to deal with this.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to work through this because this is, you know, you're just damaging lives, wrecking your own life and everyone else in the in the in the process.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so the good news is I learned, you know, practical tools, actionable tools to like heal my traumas, learn how to navigate the process better, um, help people with, you know, resources, knowledge, information that you need that most people don't know about going through divorce.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, just now I'm on this really path of healing and you know, I live a fulfilled life.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: I feel so free and content and at peace.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: And what I'm most proud of is how my personal life has really turned around.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm remarried to a fantastic man who happens to be a New York Italian, my sexy New York Italian.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: So between his accent and my accent, the kids have a field day, if you can imagine.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we've expanded our family.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a little baby girl, and and now I co-parent with my ex, which if you had told me during the divorce, like we he was, you know, we were here baking cookies on Sunday, if you had told me that, like I would have looked at you and like, you you've been taking something because that ain't gonna happen, because we hated each other, just like most people who are going through divorce.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: And my goal is to help other people get to that relationship where, you know, they they have, if not love and affection, at least appreciation and respect for their ex.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, even his new wife is like, she's one of my best friends.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we share things and help each other and support each other.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know how people do it when they constantly are in conflict.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And look, I'm not saying it's completely possible in every single situation.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: I know that it's sometimes healthier to have healthy boundaries.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like a badass bitch when it comes to boundaries.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not saying it's like healthy in every situation, but I will say it's possible in more situations than people recognize.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: If they know the tools, if they know some things to let go, if they know how to communicate better.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I do think it's possible.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: There are a few things that kind of struck me really hard while you were telling your story, and it's the the direct parallels to my own life.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: I am a child of divorce.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was out on my own by the time I was 16.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: My mother gave up all legal custodial rights to my brothers and I when I was 12.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: I did not see my mom between the time I was 12 and I was 21.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have any sort of relationship with her whatsoever.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, of course, that led to a lot of conflicting relationships in my own life.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: There are some other parallels in your story that is strike some people that are really close to me.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't disclose who, but it is it's crazy because when we're going through divorce, we tend to think we're the only one.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: We tend to like kind of associate it with I hate to say this, and this is not a knock on anybody's sense of spirituality, but kind of the shame that has been brought about through some organized religions and you know societal expectations where it's like, well, I've if I'm getting divorced, I'm a lesser person, which is not the case, which kind of brings me to a few statistics that I think are really interesting.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm gonna round the uh numbers up and down just for the sake of discussion, but 50 percent of first marriages end in divorce, or 60 percent of second marriages end in divorce, or 75 percent of third marriages end in divorce.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: A divorce happens once every 13 seconds in the United States, which equals about 2.4 to 2.5 million divorces per year.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, issues like custody and children kind of create the exponents of stress that come with that.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: And there's some other interesting statistics um that I'll share probably later in the episode in regards to how social media has impacted those divorce rates.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: But it's common.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, like whenever you're working with somebody, what is it exactly, what is your process?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a customized process.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the way I work is I am trained in you know multiple modalities, so it makes it more accessible.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things people say about me, and I consider this the compliment, like, oh my God, you are so direct.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: I have a sugary like southern accent, but don't be fooled because I will I will tell you some shit, like, oh, I gotta call you out on your bullshit.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's kind of a lot of problems with like traditional talk therapy.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's just you just go in there and you talk about your feelings and like, which is great.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying like there isn't a healing space for that.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't provide, you know, I definitely provide that space of healing and you know, validation and support.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: But there's also like the people that come to me, you know, feel like therapy has left them stuck and they want conscious, intentional exercises and strategies that are gonna lead them to uh a much more healed place, a much more aligned place.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: So usually my programs are, you know, six months and we, you know, develop strategies and and again, it all starts with that, just like what you just said.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I, you know, tell people on the very first, you know, phone call, I'm like, oh, it's this, this, and this.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I could tell how your abandonment shows up like this, this, and this, you know, because like you said, with your your your mother giving up her rights, like you definitely have some that's horrendous for an adolescent boy to be, you know, taken away from his mom or feel like she's left him.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so that leaves you with a lot of wounds, and that those tend to show up on um in your intimate relationships because we use our intimate relationships to try to fill those childhood wounds.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: And um, that was definitely me.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so I take people through the process of healing those childhood wounds because they show up in their current relationships.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: And the amazing thing is is when you heal that, it like then miraculously all the other stuff heals as well.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Then you start showing up differently in every other relationship that you're in.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's the ex that triggered you no longer triggers you.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: The, you know, the the toxic woman that you've been attracting over and over and over, you're like, why can't I like, why do I keep attracting these crazy ladies, you know, crazy women?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh, there you go.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, let's let's develop some healthy boundaries.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Let's look at those red flags and why you're attracting them, the root of that, and then deal with that.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then you start attracting a higher quality partner and people in in your life, just in all areas of your life.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I also want to kind of round back, it would be interesting to see about that first marriage statistic because it actually had gone down actually from 30% even into the 20s pre-COVID.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then we saw like a huge spike during COVID with like marriages struggling, which I know you kind of have these really great people on the podcast that probably speak to this, is because we we use work as a distraction.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: We use those activities as a distraction.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And the foundation of these relationships have been broken for a long time, but we no longer could escape that.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we were confronted, or many people were confronted with this crumbling relationship and could no longer deny it.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't that, you know, oh, COVID caused all these relationships to fail or whatever.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think it just unveiled what was already between people.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, for many people, they became closer, you know, and to navigate a challenging time, it brought them closer.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: So um, and then this the other statistic that I really throw out because I think this is the most important reason to work on yourself post-divorce, pre-divorce, during divorce, is that uh you you know in a blended family, it is like every stressor challenge.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then you oh, it's I always say, like, I would rather get hit by that van again than be like become a stepmom again.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like that, those first couple of years were agony.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I have tools and I have like, you know, you know, every kind of like toolkit in the box, and I have support from like amazing coaches and amazing people.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: So um it's you know, so I can't imagine the average person who has all those stresses.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: So the the slavest statistic I saw was like close to 70% if you have kids.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's because you're still bringing in your relationship baggage, but add on all the personalities, add on like a high conflict ex that you never really, you know, dealt with and learned how to do that in the first place.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then you got, you know, your relationship with your spouse, and they're getting the vent of all your angst and anger, and it's a lot.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as you know, as you know.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: I am remarried, and we are a blended family.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And coincidentally enough, and I've mentioned it a million times on the podcast, I now have three 15-year-old daughters, twin stepdaughters that are 15, and my daughter's 15.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I my poor son, he's he's 12, and uh gosh.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Lord, yeah, it's a lot.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're absolutely correct.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think my wife now and and I, we've we did do work in between our first and second marriages, and I think when we do fight, it's typically something involving the children.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, same here with my husband, I'd say most of the time, yeah.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then stepping back to the divorce statistics, I did kind of glaze over the fact that in 2019 that divorce rates had hit their lowest rate in 50 years pre-COVID and then spike back up post-COVID.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Your statistic on well, you mentioned the social media, and again, it's all about it's all about us the loneliness that we feel, but it's compounded by the fact that we have a device in our hand 24-7 that can give us instant stimulus.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we never take time to reflect and just sit with our emotions, sit with our feelings.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: That was that was maybe maybe that was the blessing for me was that this was pre-like, you know, it wasn't even that long ago, but before, like, you know, social media and phones, gosh, it wasn't even that long ago.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, technology has exploded.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember, you know, I was sitting in this strange because I lost my house.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was sitting in this strange woman's basement crying night after night after night.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it was during that loneliness when I kind of came to the realization that, girl, you have been filling yourself up with some external, you know, looking for attention from men, and you know, and it's not working, and it's time to do something different.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: But if I hadn't sat in that loneliness, I would have never had that realization.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so a big part of my work is like journaling and sitting with your feelings and meditating.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I know people have this whole like woo-woo, like meditation.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh my God, I'm a mom, stepmom of five.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it is not woo-woo.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: It is like it is a must tool, you know, it's a self-care tool, just like my workouts.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the same thing, it's it's that emotional muscle.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: I I use the analogy of like, you got to be physically healthy.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: And in order to become stronger, you've got to lift those weights and they've got to be bigger and heavier, and you you have to become uncomfortable.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: And the discomfort is where we gain the strength.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the same way with your emotional muscle.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: You got to sit with those uncomfortable feelings.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: And as you do, the you know, the muck shit rises, and you go, Oh, that's what that is, that's where that comes from.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: Let me deal with it and let me move on.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I call it like on the other side of pain is your peace.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: And on the other side of fear is freedom if you're willing to take a look at that.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And people today are not, you know, and and our phones give us easy access to instant validation on social media and instant gratification.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: We're not turning to our partners, we're turning to, you know, it it's it's it's it is a big deal.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: I see particularly, you know what?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: I see it more with the men complain about it about their wives.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: My wife just she lost interest in me and went to the social media.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think instead of dealing with the issues in the marriage, I think many women go to Instagram.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I uh I kind of think it's one of those things where normally in life the laws of attraction are a good thing.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: But since the advent of social media, it almost kind of has reverse-engineered itself to where it's become a bad thing because people are looking at other people's lives or what they're putting forth as the image of their life and um kind of having this sense of envy to a certain degree, where a lot of people are like, you know, they get that ex-girlfriend from high school that all of a sudden friend requests them out of the blue someplace, or the ex-boyfriend from high school.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it goes both ways.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you almost see somebody trying to fill the gaps in their lives.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like people, you can almost watch social media, you watch your Facebook feed, watch the Instagram feed, and almost watch people telegraph the fact that they are on the verge of separation bordering on divorce, because just like you said, they're looking to fulfill something, and that's what the instant gratification of social media provides for those people.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: They say, and this is the actual statistic, that 20% Facebook account increase is correlated to a 2.2 to 4.32 divorce rate increase.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's big whenever you're looking at numbers and you're looking at how many people are using social media.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just Facebook.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, yeah, that that is an interesting statistic.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I you're right, I'd I'd be interested to see the Instagram.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a friend who moved to California like recently.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm in the Chicago area, which is very like just it's just you're you're in Midwest too.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: So you know it's just very like down to earth, like just very, I don't know, it's just very accessible.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: People here are just like super down to earth.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And she moved to LA.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I shouldn't say this, but she was telling me the difference and how people like on particularly on social media, because we were talking about something in our business and moms and you know, something I was like, well, did you join the group, a Facebook group for moms, you know, over where you're you know, you're local?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: And she was like, Oh my gosh, it is the fakest.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, she she's I was like, Yeah, I I know what you're talking about because you see some of those Facebook groups that are like so particularly phony and you know, just idealized and not a real family.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you totally, I totally can see it, and it, and it is, it's it can be, it makes you feel bad about yourself.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's all you're seeing.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Those portraits where everyone looks perfect and they look like models, and they've you know got these photo shoots, and it's not a it's not a practical, a practical view of of life.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so naive.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, you know, I don't watch a lot of news, I don't, you know, do a whole lot of that stuff.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I had sent my sister like some post or something of my kids doing something.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: They were eating this huge Sunday or something really silly, like kind of over the top.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the kids are all like posing, they look super cute and everything.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: And my sister texts me back and she goes, Yeah, throw it in the garbage and post it on Instagram like those moms do.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, What?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: What are you talking about?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And she's like, you know, there's there's those Instagram moms that stage these photo shoots with their kids, but they're not actually like going swimming, they're just getting in their swimsuits and posing, or they're going on the you know, you know, trip to the store and they're I was like, oh my god, you know, and I'm like, this is terrible.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I can imagine just taking Ed Sunday and like throwing it away in their face.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I guess, I guess, I guess it is more important to get the picture than it is to really create an authentic memory.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a there's a perception versus reality kind of issue out there for sure.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: They say right now that one in three divorces has had a social media related issue as the root cause of why the divorce occurred.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this is just something recent.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is something within the past five years.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely goes right to what you said.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Some ex-girlfriend is, you know, you've got one of the partners, or both partners are lonely, their needs aren't getting met, and then someone gives them an attention, and it's just easy access to, you know, where people, and again, it's and it's even just like emotional betrayal.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be a physical betrayal, but when you start sharing things with someone and you know, about your relationship, or you start sharing things on a very deep, intimate level, you've broken that bond with your partner.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it just, it's, it's, it's really the easy access.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I think you're saying, I think you're right.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's that validation too.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like people are getting so much external validation that maybe they're not getting in their real life and in their real marriage.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: So they can get it outside of themselves.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: But it doesn't solve the problem.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: You end up right back with yourself.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: You still have by yourself.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: With what you do in regards to what you do, what are some of the root issues that are more you see happen more frequently that actually cause the divorce?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Probably a hidden, um, I would say a hidden epidemic in America.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: I would say alcoholism.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: At this point, I'm not shocked, but in the beginning, like every uh third phone call, it's again, these tend to be mainly women that are leaving their their husbands who are have an alcohol issue.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been surprised, like when I was like, I was wow, like I would have never guessed.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a hidden epidemic.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think COVID, again, I think that I think that contributed to it because people had nothing to do, they're bored, nowhere to go, nothing to they gotta numb themselves, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: I've never been able to kind of run that statistic on.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: And again, it's one of those things people don't like, oh, I'm divorcing my alcoholic spouse.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's kind of the people don't want to like again, divorce itself is taboo, and then you throw in all these other issues, and people don't want to be open about it.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: You you almost get one primary issue, but really it's the culmination of several secondary issues.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think I think people will say, my ex, you know, cheated on me, he's a cheater, it's a cheater, she was a cheater.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: But the truth is, like there are some other foundational things that are broken long before it gets to that point.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it is a complex, complicated situation.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And even betrayal can be overcome.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Any any challenge, I'm not saying it's you know necessary for everyone or or or healthy for everyone, but if if the couple's willing to do the work and they're willing to face those demons and become accountable for their actions, then it's it is salvageable.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, that that seems to be the accepted, you know, like, okay, I got divorced for that.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, uh, we need to make divorce more acceptable.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think the whole like toxic relationship, like that label has been like thrown around a lot.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think, and and I've talked to other like experts too, where you know, it can be two people who in and of themselves are not toxic, but when they get to each get around each other, they bring out the toxicity in each other for whatever reason.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Their qualities tend to draw out the the negative in each other, and it makes that relationship toxic.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: And they can be two great people on their own.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: So um, that's a a term that's and then the the narcissist term is probably the one that I'm exhausted from and the way overused, way, way, way overused.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Leaning into exactly what you just said on those two points in particular, um, there's four four items: money, sex, status, and biological clock are four things that people rush into marriage for.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they marry for money, they marry because the sex is good, they marry because the social status is right, or they marry quickly because the biological clock is ticking without really figuring out if they're actually compatible or not.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of times they don't find out until it's too late, right?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think people really need to take time and just learn who you are, identify who you are and work on yourself.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and and I know that term like date yourself gets you know thrown around a lot in like what does that mean?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Date myself, like date myself to the movies, like not necessarily, but treat yourself the way you're longing for someone else to treat you.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, it all goes to like that worthiness.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: I am, I am worthy of love, I'm worthy of attention, I'm worthy of unconditional acceptance, but you have to give it to yourself before you can get, you know, expect it from anyone else or before you can give it to anyone else.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you don't really love and accept and have done the work on yourself, it it's gonna definitely manifest in a relationship.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it is, it's it's definitely important to take time.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: And a big thing that I teach my clients is to understand that sometimes the attraction, and if it's a really quick attraction, it's coming from that childhood wound because it's like we're drawn to that person because they're feeling that need within us that we didn't get from mom, for example.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's one where I had a a client and she was seeing the red flags, and we talked about it like, like, girl, you're a data collector.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: How much data do you need?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: How many red flags do you need to keep putting in that box before you you know you you've seen the signs, like what's going on?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: And when we did, you know, did the work together, we realized that what it was, it was he made her feel accepted.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: He made her feel comfortable in her authentic self, which she didn't as um in an adoptive family.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: She never quite felt like one of them.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: So in that feeling, she was drawn to him, couldn't seem to break that bond.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: But when she recognized that and did the inner work on herself, she was able to break that bond.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: And another thing that people need to realize, and I know you talk about this a lot on your podcast, is like, you know, uh, there's that book, Fuck Feelings, right?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like if feelings are fleeting.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: You can't just you've got to, when you're on a date with someone, or when you're dating just in general, you you've got to look at do their words match their actions?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Are, you know, do you see like a discrepancy there?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's a huge, like that's what you should really be looking for, not about how they make you feel.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, people can make you feel really good about yourself, throw in the compliments, but you notice, like, you know, this person really doesn't have it all together, and they're, you know, financially like really, you know, unstable and they, you know, they can't handle their money.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: They can't, yeah.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Again, that's a that's a red flag.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: All these like things that we tend to dismiss, real important to take your time, do the inner work, understand yourself really, really well, and recognize your patterns because they're gonna show up in your relationships.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you almost have to make sure that your life goals are kind of in sync as well.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to have that common understanding that a relationship is not a 50-50 thing, it's a 100-100 thing.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's gotta be 180 and 20 thing.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a law of 200%, realistically, because two people each bringing in 100%, you know, you gotta be able to fill in the gaps if the other person can't at that particular moment in time.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And people are gonna have moments, right?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that you know, you know, my husband and I do, um, kind of similar to what this, you know, because I talk about that too, like 50-50 is like a total myth.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's like no such thing.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's and I think people, and I think too, with gender roles being also less kind of rigid as they were, we have to discuss that.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: And we have to understand that it's not 50-50.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's not what it is.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: That you know, some days it's 80-20, or as you you like you said, 180 and 20, and some days it's like, um, oh now, now you're making me do math.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, 70, 30 or whatever.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just to understand that there's an ebb and flow to a relationship.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And what we do consciously in our relationship is like we kind of have like these, you know, marriage meetings, and in December, my husband and I had a couple meetings, and I said, here's what I got going on this month, and here's where I need your support, you know.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we now we've like the kids are older and we kind of incorporate them.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I was so proud of my son.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: He came to me this week and or late last week, and he was like, you know, I've got all these summates, mom.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna let you know.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be anxious.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be in my room a lot studying.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, awesome! I'm like, I love that you came to us and you told us what you need.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: You need space and you need time, and we're totally, and we totally understand.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I would, I would, you know, want people to do that is to really make that I call it a conscious, make those conscious decisions every day in your marriage to show up to support the relationship and support each other and support yourself.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be an individual.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, it's a hundred a hundred.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone has to be an individual in the relationship.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to fulfill your own self.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: And wasn't isn't that that's a big thing.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: Will Smith is going around that big thing that he said about like, I'm not there to make Jada happy.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I realize I can't do that.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: She's gotta make her own happiness, I gotta make my own happiness.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then we just come together and we bring even more happiness to each other, and that's really the key.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, and that's and I think that's a big myth about marriage.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's a lot of myths about marriage.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: Don't we could do like a whole other episode on the myth of marriage?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um because like people think like the other, you know, it's like those fairy tales we've been fed, and like, no, you should no one should ever like need another person.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: You should wake up every day choosing that person over and over and over.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Every day I choose you, you know, I'll have to.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's a great field.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: You hit something I was gonna hit on later, and that's gender roles.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, our generation being late Gen X, early millennial, the Zennial generation, if you will, we're supposed to be the generation that broke the cycle to a certain degree.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: But what we did is we rewrote the book.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And um, as far as gender equality goes, in light of that, a lot of research has shown that men are typically intimidated when a woman's career takes off, but at the same time, women are empowered, and the divorce rate for women that have filed divorce increases by 33% when a woman gets a promotion at a job.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now that's a complex statistic.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think it seems like it's uh you know simple, like, oh, you make more money, you're gonna get a divorce.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't think that's it.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think that marriages where a partner was unhappy as soon as the woman had the financial stability to get out to, then could use that opportunity.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a big part of it.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that is a huge reason why so many women stay in unhappy marriages because they don't have uh the financial ability to make it on their own.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: They've they've been a stay-at-home mom for 20 years, and it's just it's it's very difficult to start over.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I I do think gender roles are making it more difficult, which is all the more reason, like I say, like there's gotta be really good communication and there needs to be some intentional setting of goals together as a couple.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and again, if if a man is triggered by his wife, you know, making more why is that?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's get curious, like let's dig into that rather than glossing it over, pretending it's not going on, like what's going on there?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Is it that you're fearful?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it might be your own abandonment issues showing up, and you're worried she's gonna leave you because now she's got the means to do so.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so the thing, and the thing is the the funny thing about control is the more you try to control people, the more they resist and the more they they want out, you know?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the more you loosen those reins and just love and accept them, the more they're they're gonna stay.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really important to understand your own, again, and understand your own self.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I will say also, too, Mike, I use this a lot, I talk about this a lot.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, money is never about money, it always signifies something else.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a crucial thing for couples to understand.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was working with a couple recently, and I said, okay, what does money mean to you?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: And for many people, money means safety, security, stability.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: You should be surprised.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I see this a lot in men, where money means freedom and pleasure, and but it's that whole freedom, right?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's why there's, I think there's a resistance to the well, I think there's a couple of reasons for spousal support when men have to pay their their ex-spousal support.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think it has to do with that freedom.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're taking away my freedom, you're taking away, I feel controlled.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then another reason I think is also it's a tie to someone that they they they wish they could break.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a it's a reminder every month that I'm a failure.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think that men in particular are really sensitive to shame.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so that that whole you know thing of like, I'm a failure, I didn't make it, she rejected me, it all goes to that shame.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I think spousal support is like one of those big like hot button things.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like I led you to the water on that one.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: So virtual high five.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: That was my intent.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, I I I wholeheartedly agree because uh again, going back to um where the thought started, women uh need a sense of security before they can exit a marriage.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: So they try and keep the marriage together for the sake of that security, where men typically try and keep the marriage together for a sake of involvement in their families' lives, because we could we could do a whole other episode about family courts and uh the the lopsided family.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: I could speak to that for days.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, we still it's interesting about the gender roles, right?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like how that has flip-flopped, but when it comes to parenting, there's still this notion that it's just mothers are better parents automatically.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's you know, like, well, what why are we not valuing fathers in and their role in their children's lives?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that that is an interesting, we've come a long way in a lot of ways, but not in that way.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's uh the tender years doctrine that had been put in place and it started to kind of dissolve in the late 80s, and courts are really slow, but they're finally starting to understand the value of shared parenting and aligned parenting 50-50 time as opposed to like you had a divorce in like say 1989, and you were a man, you were lucky if you got your kids every other week, and maybe for dinner week.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe but now it's a lot more aligned because they're they're you know, they're they're looking at the fact that uh two out of every five children growing up are growing up without fathers in the world.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's sad.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: And like I said, uh as someone who's been abandoned by her biological father, it's it it leaves wounds.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: And again, it's a generational trauma.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: We just you know continue to pass it on and on and on.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I think if we can, and you know, if we and that's a that's another thing, I would if you can stay out of the courts and make these decisions for your family, it's for the best.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Tried because when you do that, you're gonna lose control and it's a gamble.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: And like, is that a gamble you're willing to take?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: We try some alternative routes, routes first, alternative routes to to get what you want, to continue to do the things you want.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I'm not saying it's not always, you know, it's not always possible, but if you can use some alternative means to to develop that parenting time, it's better than just having the courts decide.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's a good argument to be made that our because of the court systems, that our economy is kind of structured for a very pro-divorce environment.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it's built on the foundation of discourse.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: And the the more you don't agree, the better it is for the courts and for the lawyers and for the system, but not for the families that it's supposedly serving.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not really serving the families because if it was restructured so that one partner had uh a divorce coach to help them navigate the emotional side, and another partner had a divorce coach to help them, and then they had some financial people and they had some real estate people as well as attorneys, like helping them to figure out how to best, you know, divide the assets, and that would be a far better, you know, way of serving families, right?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: That it's it's it's set up as this adversarial system, you know, it's it's it's not really meant to like keep the parenting together or keep kids in a co-parenting situation.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: They they want that.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they they say they advocate for that, but the system itself is doesn't always lend itself to do that.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that leads me into my next question because you're labeled as a divorce strategist, which I love that term, because I think a lot of times people have already made their decision before they go to a marriage counselor.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah now I've gone through the process of marriage counselors, I am soured on that process.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not opposed to counselors at all, at all, but I I do have this apprehension with marriage counselors where I do believe a lot of them are a racket and sometimes actually make the problems worse by exposing it or supplementing ideas that weren't there before going into the counselor.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Have you experienced that?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or heard that before?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's tough.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think, I think it's a tough position because I don't do marriage counseling, you know?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um Right, right, exactly.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think it can be a tough position to be in.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I think one of the reasons is I think it's set up for the couple to fail.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think there should be a meeting, and the outset says, look, here's what we're here to do, and here's the intention, and we need to have a goal.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is not come in here, and you're the victim of your spouse, and we blame everything on the other partner.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that might be why like my process is different, and even the process of coaching is slightly different because every time you're coming in, there's a goal.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: There is a plan you're walking away with.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and like if the goal is, okay, we want to communicate better, okay, you're gonna have to hit some hard truths about like what that is.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: But like give some actionable strategies so people can communicate better rather than just you know, bring.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think some someone like uh I don't made this analogy of like sometimes it can be like just unpacking a suitcase and then you're just stuck there with like all your clothes all over the floor, and now you've just brought all of this, you know, dirty your dirty laundry out into the light, and now what do you do?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: But if you have someone that's skilled enough to know how can we pack this up and put this in the suitcase and roll this in a night bundle, a nice bundle so that you guys can walk out of here and be like a team.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think people forget like you're a team, you're supposed to be working through this together, and how can you best support each other and give people like actionable goals and actionable exercises to do?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: And there's really great exercises, and there's really great research that says what makes a relationship successful.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's it's not what you think it is.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like super, like it's super like don't hey, here you go, Mike, don't ignore your spouse.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's like number one, like you know, Gottman Institute, which is the leading research on marriages.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like the number one thing is like they're called he calls them bids.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you look over at your spouse and say, Hey Han, that's a that's a really pretty sunset.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: And your spouse, oh yeah, that's a nice sunset.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: But if you if you say, Hey, that's a that's a lovely sunset, and you just ignored, and it goes over and over and over, they they they can tell within, I think, minutes if that couple's gonna last.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like they've done research on it.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: And again, it's and it creating intentional time to connect.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: Why do marriages fail after years and years and then kids come along?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because the marriage gets put on the back burner.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I will say this this is controversial that I say, but I'm gonna say it that people people, you know, think like, put the kids first.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm sorry, you got to put the marriage first because the marriage is the foundation for those kids.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if the marriage dissolves, you've lost your foundation for your kids.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I mean, I am shocked at the the shit that comes back when you say put the marriage first.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: Now I say put yourself first and then put the marriage and then you know, and again, I get, you know, your kids have needs.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: I get that.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: But you have to like make sure that marriage is like functioning like a well-oiled machine, that it is like running perfectly smoothly, that y'all are like, but so many people, what is the first thing they do?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: They put all their kids' activities on the calendar and it's all about the kids, kids, kids, kids, kids.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it really the first thing should be that marriage meeting or that family meeting and those, you know, date nights.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: Date nights again, super simple, but super effective because without kids, because you are making time, intentional time to reconnect with your partner.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: You got you gotta have that.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: You are not gonna find anybody on this side of the screen disagreeing.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you a hundred percent.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like disciplining kids when you have opposing viewpoints.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: One parent thinks it needs to go this way, the other parent thinks it needs to go this way.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: The kid can't see you disagree because they're gonna pounce on that.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: You almost have to take that disagreement to the side and collaborate a little bit, or else you're basically laying the foundation of conflict in front of the child as well, and you're bringing them into the conflict.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: And you're giving them power, you're giving them power to go, ooh, look at that.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: I know how to like put a little tip between mommy and daddy.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: That was that was super fun.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, and yeah, can we give our kids like a voice and power in like healthy, acceptable ways rather than you know, manipulating their parents?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: And definitely, and I mean, I am so thankful that my ex and his wife and the four of us have a good like relationship because my you know, my teen will be eating that up and she tries it all the time.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really shocked, and I just laugh.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm like, you know, I'm like, we I talk to your dad like every day, like and he knows you're full of shit.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are you doing?
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this is so funny.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel sorry for those parents that don't have that relationship, but I would advise those parents that don't have that relationship, please don't take what your child says is the gospel truth.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, assume the best of your ex-partner and just make that assumption going out the gate and then get all the facts and then talk through it or figure it out.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, look, I've made mistakes, my exes make mistakes, like we all make mistakes, but we assume that they're doing the best they can and that we're we're all doing the best that that we can, but we're gonna make mistakes.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody's perfect, you know?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: Very sound advice, very sound.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a that's a that's a hard one.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: You I I'm always surprised at how many people like their first instinct is to jump on their ex.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then it just gives them like a tally mark on like how horrible their ex is that you know, she's such a horrible mother.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: Look at this, and she did this and this and this, rather than looking at all the great stuff and all the good stuff.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: And again, just and I I think maybe because I live that as a philosophy of my life, I assume the best of everyone, everything, like that everyone's doing the best they can at all times.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, if we can just make that a philosophy in life, like the world would just be a much better place.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we're knee deep in the holiday season.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter if somebody's listening to this one year from now, six months from now, but just keeping things timely for the sake of discussion.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: What are a couple of strategies that can make divorce tolerable through the holiday season?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, love this.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing some writing about that, posting some content on that on all my social media.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the first step is just acceptance.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: Accept that things are different, accept that the life that you had before, and that is a that's like a big thing.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like you gotta let go.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you you have to, you know, get the closure, get the emotional closure, and gain the acceptance so that you can be present.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: You can't bring that past and bring those that bitterness and that negative energy into this time with your kids, or you're gonna regret it.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: So let go of the past and focus on being present and create new traditions.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: This is an opportunity to create new traditions with your children.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: So don't look at like problems as you know, horrible things.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: Look at as a challenge, as a setback, as a way to like, how can I solve this?
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, okay, you're not gonna be with your kids on Christmas Day where you've been to Nana's house for the last 10 years, and I know it sucks, but what's something new you can do?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: What's a new tradition that you can create or what's a new way of looking at it?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the other thing.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: People forget, like, your kid is not looking at the calendar and go, well, we didn't go to Nana's on the 25th.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's just about that experience, you know.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: If they go on the 21st, who cares, you know?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: So letting go of that date on the calendar is a big part of it.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: And your self-care, you know, you gotta up the self-care.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: I should explain like what self-care is because I think that's another overused term.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: People think it's bubble baths and reading.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, uh, for me, it's bumping up my meditation, or I might, you know, implement some EFT tapping if my anxiety is high and workouts, like you do not mess with my workouts because when mom sweats, kids are happy.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like so, you know, make sure you've got healthy habits, healthy meals, like make sure you're taking care of your body, taking care of your mind, take some breaks.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_02: Don't say yes if you don't, if you can't handle it.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's another thing: building some boundaries, set out some non-negotiables.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not taking on that project that I do every year because I'm just I'm just dealing with too much emotional crap.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's okay.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then reach out for support.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay to know that um this is a difficult time.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think really people understand.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: You and I have been through it, Mike, but I I the person who has not been through divorce does not really understand the amount of grief that people go through when they're going through divorce.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's you're not just grieving the knowns, like the loss of your marriage and the loss of time with your kids, but what about the unknowns?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what's my financial status going to be?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: Or do I have to go get a new career?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: Or where am I gonna live?
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, those are huge questions and huge anxiety-filled things.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I think reaching out for support and putting up boundaries and and you know, doing that self-care and doing what's best for you and your kids right now is really the thing.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: And listen, it's okay to be sad.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay, and it's okay to be sad even when you make the right decisions.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes that's a part of it.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: You you have to know, like, you know, things are different.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling lonely, but I know that I'm gonna be okay in the end.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's okay.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: For transparency's sake, you know, that first Christmas I went through as I was going through divorce was incredibly challenging.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I remember Christmas Eve in particular, I was living with one of my friends.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: Here we are in our mid-30s and we're roommates.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh which is almost humiliating in and of itself.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was just for a short period of time.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember a Christmas Eve where I got pretty low, and he ended up having to call a bunch of our friends over.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: We ended up kind of having an impromptu Christmas Eve party.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, you know, I got through it.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I can say about my divorce and how I learned how to cope was accepting that I had three compartmentalized different versions of my personality.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: There was the part of me that was mourning the loss of my marriage and was really distraught about it.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: There was a second side of my personality that was kind of like the Loki, like the mischief maker that was kind of like, okay, I'm free, I'm this, I'm that, you know, and you know, honestly, there was some irrational decision making made during that when that personality would rear his ugly head.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was the focused me, the guy that was kind of he was sad, but he was coming to terms with it.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I wouldn't say I was necessarily optimistic as much as I was just accepting of every day.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, every day was a new day.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is how this is my new normal.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's a term I hate since COVID, by the way.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: This is my new normal, right?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: Eventually, those three personalities merged into the person that you know you're talking to right now.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I still have a little bit of that craziness, but that's what makes me fun.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: I still have that sense of focus, and that's what makes me successful.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I still have that part of me that kind of mourns certain decisions that have happened in my past and accepted my role in those bad decisions.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's part of where the healing process has taken place.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I love that.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: I love how you articulated that.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of men, and I think because men are like conditioned a little bit different.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm generalizing a little bit here.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think that's why men can continue to function because I think they've been conditioned to like put aside the emotions and just get in that game and like don't care if you're hurt, you just play through it.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so they've they've kind of been conditioned to like play through or work through or just compartmentalize things more so than women.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it is a it's more socially acceptable for a woman, for example, to cry at work, you know, and so some of that personal stuff can bleed into the professional stuff.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: But if a man did that, holy shit, can you imagine?
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: So and so that's where I see, I see like the biggest distinction because I have a women's group and a men's group on Facebook, and like the men just come to that group and like I have to take breaks because the pain is palpable because they don't have an outlet.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_02: And because and I think because they do, they compartmentalize things, they go to work, I'm but like deep inside, like their anxiety, and so they come to me and you know we work through that, and but I definitely think that like the men just don't have that like support, it's not like and so for them to pour their hearts out to other men who understand, hey, I'm just honored that I get to like witness that and just see that and see the beauty of it.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I kind of like spread the message that this this is very hurtful for men, and and I I we just don't see it, you know.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I I don't know.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_02: I want I want men to get that support.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad you had that support and that you had someone to lean on.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I think a lot of men don't.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think their families don't really understand again.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: If you you if you don't have know anyone, you know, that's going through divorce and they're looking at you like, what the hell's wrong with you?
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, they think it's like a breakup, and I'm like, oh my God, you're like, you're losing everything.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're losing like your children, your home, your finances.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, it's it's so devastating.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it's uh yeah, so interesting that you talked about that compartmentalization and like and then blending it together, and like again, it's about moving forward and and being able to use that in a way that makes you a better person.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: That that's really the beauty of it.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how can I come through this?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: And what did I learn from it?
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: What did I gain from it?
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: And how can I use this to help others?
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's the other thing, too.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that was uh, you know, that's part of that journey for me was I would say the most pivotal moment was whenever I recognized that.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I, you know, it's I it's my divorce multiple personality disorder, you know, and any one of those, any one of those personalities could rear its ugly head at any moment in time.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: And once I actually recognized that within myself, I was able to work on those things individually, you know, and how I dealt with those things, how I presented myself to my kids, how I presented myself to my peers, my coworkers, uh, my subordinates, you know, I lead people for a living.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's really it's really crazy.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, whenever I have friends come to me and talk to me about their divorce, I share that.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's the very first thing that I share is like, okay, here's the thing.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: I can't speak on your behalf because I'm not you, but this is what happened with me.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: I had three different types of personality that would just rear its head any day, and I didn't know which guy I was gonna wake up being any given day, but I figured out how to navigate it, and you will too.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, and we all have our own coping mechanisms and we all have our own, but I think that that's the key.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: That that but that is the key for you, and that's the key for like people who are going through this is identifying your patterns and reconciling those patterns to make it into a healthy pattern, you know, recognizing where it's showing up for you and where it's constructive versus destructive, right?
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like that playful might might be good on on air with guests and with kids, not so much spending money.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly, and that's exactly where we go.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Terry, I appreciate you doing the show.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: Where can they find you online?
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'd love to have everyone, you know.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_02: You can follow me on Instagram at Vanover Terry, or I have a men's support group, and that's on Facebook.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it's Thrive After Divorce by Terry Vanover.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then for women, it's women thriving after divorce.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's easy.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thrive, just hear my long ad, and you got it.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thrive after divorce.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_02: So you can search those, and that's the best way to find me.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: I've got lots of free courses, resources, books, stuff that can help people get through this process better.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate you doing the show.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: This was a lot of fun.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think we could probably keep going all night and bounce ideas back and forth.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna have to do that this again.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: I want to once again thank Terry Vanover for being on the show today.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: You can find her at choosingtorize.com.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can also search her out through all forms of social media by looking her up by name Terry Vanover.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you are going through a divorce or a hard time right now, make sure you reach out and talk to somebody.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: You do not have to go through this alone.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, I hope you can find time to give me a like, follow, subscribe on all forms of social media Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, and Facebook.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: Share this show with your friends because we have plenty of new and exciting things happening for 2022.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: I would also appreciate that five-star rating on the Apple Podcast app.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: It helps push this podcast to the top of the search queue.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: This has been Caught on the Mic with Michael Clark.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Michael Clark.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.