Latest / Skin Anarchy / VP Global Marketing for MAYBELLINE, Andrew Edwardson

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VP Global Marketing for MAYBELLINE, Andrew Edwardson · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
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• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Hi guys.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to another episode of Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is your host, Ecta, and I'm here today with a very special guest, Andrew Edwardson, the VP of Global Marketing for Maybelline.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know that this is a new role he's just coming into now, but he has over a decade worth of experience in marketing.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: He's worked for some great brands, including L'Oreal.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I would like to hand the mic over to you, Andrew.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: And just first of all, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the show.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: And also just can you tell us a little bit about your background and um you know basically what your experience is?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I, as you said earlier, I had over a decade experience working in uh in the beauty industry uh for a number of different brands in a couple of different sectors uh and with various different um different visions.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I started in fact in in country marketing.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I was working for a brand called L'Oreal Professional, a part of the L'Oreal group, uh based in Canada.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: So dealing with more the operational side of things and how you take product uh and connect with a B2B to C type environment.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: So really getting your product into the hands of hairdressers and understanding their needs and then facilitating communication through the consumer.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: So how you market that is quite unique and the relationships that you can build.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um and again, in a sector that's you know, maybe not very much seen, you know, very few women today when they go to the hairdresser know what's being knows what's being put in their hair.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so our job was to try and democratize that.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: And that was really uh that was in the early 2010s when social marketing was really just starting, and you know, running campaigns on Facebook was for the first time and and getting the word out, and things have changed so dramatically since then.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but it was a great uh yeah, and I think much more awareness, and people are much more, you know, in the know of what's going on in products that are being used in different sectors and that.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really great, and it was interesting to be part of that from again a very operational standpoint.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but my passion has uh always been, even from a very early age, branding in and of itself and building brands from a more global perspective.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was always fashioned, uh, sorry, fascinated by you know huge luxury brands that could be so create experiences and and um and a vision that was so vast that a consumer, no matter where they were around the world, could experience a different taste of that, but still buy into a global image and a global ideology.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that is so interesting because when I think of beauty, I feel like this conversation of global beauty is like now coming up in the um, at least the consumer side of what I saw, you know, in the last few years.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um, to hear that there is a strategy behind global marketing for cosmetics and you know, skincare is interesting.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, can you talk me, like talk us through that a little bit?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does what does global marketing really mean?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: So, global marketing, um, so I've just come off of a seven-year stint working in global marketing in for a brand called Carastas, so a luxury hair brand.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very interesting now.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm shifting into a new role here in Maybelline.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Global marketing, you're responsible for the vision and development of your brand across the world.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that doesn't mean that it's one vision of beauty and one interpretation.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: It means that you have to understand the varying needs, um, the varying visions of beauty, interpretations, the various desires, the various tastes, um cultures and beliefs, and build those into an execution of your brand.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: So creating synergies, finding a point of commonality that can then create a uniform execution around the world, um, but then of course developing into those specificities.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so I've just made the transition from a luxury brand into a mass market brand, and you can see the way that that's treated is very different.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, in the my my past experience, and this is the way most of the you know, the large luxury skincare or luxury beauty brands are working, is you're going to have a central point that will take into consideration the different um demands and of the different markets, but it's going to be one execution and one brand execution and one product line and one product execution that's then delivered to the world and locally interpreted.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: So we would take insights from our partners in uh in China or in Latin America, in the US and Europe, and build those insights and those needs into our global launch.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was one launch with one campaign and one execution uh that then those markets would implement in obviously their local channels and with their local influencers and bring them to a local level, but from one unified um and one sort of centralized product.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: And it's the same thing you're seeing with brands like an SK2, a La Mer, that it's the same product that you're getting no matter where you are.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe the tagline and the campaign is a little bit different, but the imagery is still the same, the product concept is still the same, what you're getting is exactly the same.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's really interesting because I I have a couple questions actually.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because what is that central vision?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, can you give me an example um of that central vision that you build everything else on?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: So it can be so a commonality.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it's very I think it's a little bit easier to talk about um about things like uh you know, what happens to skin when it's dry.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: We all know what what dry skin is, and many of us suffer from it in various degrees.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: But the origin of what's behind the dry skin, uh, you know, the the way skin eventually dries out with time and with age, yeah, um, then can drive you into many different product concepts that can then come to the market.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: But a centralized vision could be, for example, uh, as time goes, the natural production of collagen and hyaluronic acid decreased in your skin, therefore creating dryness.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to launch this cream or this product rich in hyaluronic acid that will keep your skin hydrated and make it look uh healthier and more beautiful, more radiant for longer.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of you know what a LaMaire type thing would do with a miracle broth.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: But then, and that's a commonality that can speak to anyone around the world because it's an inane fact.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: But what you're seeing differently when you start talking about local specificities is that there's things that happen with different climates or different skin types around the world, that then that that messaging may need to be tweaked.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what you're seeing in more democratic brands, and that's what I was getting to, the very the difference in when you're working on a mass market brand is we're not creating one common product around the world, but the same product can have um variations, very not only variations in tone, but variations in formula, in promise, in pack, uh, in execution around the world to take into account that.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, you're going to have uh in certain markets the need for SPF in a foundation is much higher than it is in other markets, and therefore you're going to have formulas that are SPF that are going to have oil control and that that other markets are not interested in whatsoever.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: You have in other markets the need for everything to be extremely low cost.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to find a way of creating low-cost formulas, but you know, all under the same umbrella.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: So then it becomes more about brand messaging, so a value set of what do I buy into, what do I believe in, and then ultimately what I'm using to achieve that is specific to me and my market.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's really a problem solution, you know, kind of concept.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's like find a problem, find a solution, and apply it to every culture.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's I mean that sounds Yeah.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, find apply, find a way that I wouldn't say apply it to every culture, I would say more find a way that it resonates with every consumer.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think even within a culture, you have culture, but then you have cultural interpretation.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: You also have cultural, like the way each person lives that culture and the way that you know, to what degree you stick true to it, to what degree you interpret it in your own.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: And and so I think, you know, it's more each individual, I would say, particularly in the world that we're living on to in today, is you know, the way each person lives the world is different.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and I I love that.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you said that because I know that there's a lot of talk right now around um, you know, like I I bring up the word culture because a lot of people love throwing that word around and they love adding the word appropriation next to it as well.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, you know, um, it's a very, very deep uh and multi, you know, layered conversation.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think um I'm interested in that aspect of appealing to different cultures.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it to for me, when I think about like Maybelline, you know, I think of a a you know, a company that has products that every woman in this world can say, who's played with makeup can say, I've had something Maybelline in my in my drawer.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the brand is actually what in my mind it becomes a commonality amongst women, you know.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think like like the brand is the culture in a way.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I like I think that's that's phenomenal.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's a phenomenal level to come to, you know.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's what we all aspire to as we work in different brands, is that and that's what I was talking to about a value set, you know, whatever brand you're buying into, there's a common value that I believe that I adhere to this, and there's an element of this brand that I belong to and that fits me.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: And um my experience with it will be different than your experience with it.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: And what resonates with me is going to be what perhaps different than what resonates with you.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: And particularly in brands where that are creative, like makeup brands, um, the way I express myself through this uh this brand is going to be different than you.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yet I believe that the you know there's something in the overarching vision of this brand that um that I believe in.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what's really interesting about working at the sort of headquarters of these brands is is is working closely with consumers from around the world, with you know, researchers and that to build these this these values that then touch people.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I also find that that's what's so powerful, and that's ultimately what really has fascinated me in the in the work that I've been doing over the last uh 10 plus years.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's yeah, that's amazing.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad that you brought up the word research because that's like my trigger word.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um I want to talk to you a little bit about market research.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I know this is a kind of an umbrella term in a lot of ways, um, but what does it mean to you?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you consider when you're approaching um the research component of your work?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do you have your own personal process or do you rely on your teams?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how does that work for you?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, obviously, we're part of a huge global conglomerate.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: So we have we do have research on so many different levels.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: I sometimes have a hard time keeping track of it.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: So we're given a lot of we're we're provided with a little, you know, a plethora of different materials and and studies from either uh agency partners that we have or with various different teams, some that are responsible for researching trends uh from around the world, and then um crafting visions of what the future will look like and how these trends will evolve, uh cult uh you know, groups on consumer movements, and then more specific, and so those are kind of big things that get shared with you know people across a conglomerate.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but then more specifically as we you know tackle projects uh and that, then that's when you know creating dedicated research uh capsules becomes important.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: So whether that's you know, reading uh you know even simple things like pop culture or what's out there, but then uh digging down and um and actually speaking to consumers is the most powerful form of research is you know, putting something in front of people and asking them what they feel, what it makes them feel.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, ultimately, of course, will they buy, but that's not the most powerful thing.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think the most powerful thing is the emotion that comes with what the stimulus um creates in there.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh especially with like a favorite product.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think like as women, we have that favorite mascara or women and men, we all have our favorites, you know what I mean?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like when you can associate that with something and then actually speak on it, like, oh, I love this because of this.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's I think you're right, that's the biggest feedback, you know, a company can get.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or even you know, when we're coming out with something new, there's nothing more powerful than you go into a you know a focus group, for example, and they're putting forward a concept for something that doesn't exist yet, but that you um you know you and your team have been working on late nights for God knows how long.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: Slaving and after, you know, after consolidating research and reading and uh and putting this all together, and then you hear people around the table say, Oh my god, but that's me, that's exactly what I've been feeling, or yeah, I really want this.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: And and then you you realize that that you know there is that resonance with consumer group.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: And conversely, many times you hear the complete opposite, you hear, no, but I'm sorry that this is completely out of touch.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and then you know it's hearing what those emotions, and and I think I don't think people realize how emotionally involved we are with beauty, whether we like to be or not.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um you have to be.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh I yeah, continue, but I'm gonna.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: No, but I think everyone, I mean not everyone, but I think most people that you know do delve into the world, whether even just with a little toe or you know, fully in it, or either working in it, for example.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you're very we're very emotionally involved, you know.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh just think about what happens when your favorite product is out of stock and the and I I know the buxam, there was a buxam blush that I used to love, and they stopped making it.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like the most like devastating thing in my life.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, I mean for sure.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's devastating from from you know uh your life because you, you know, there's something that you it was a go-to, it was foolproof, you know.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: You built memories around using something, and then all of a sudden it's no longer there.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: I can't tell you how many times uh, you know, the social media of many brands we there's so many DMs and messages, where's this product?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: You got rid of this, this is my favorite product, please bring this back and things like that.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah, who knows why the products don't don't really don't exist, but the emotional involvement.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's why is reading those emotions is what ends up crafting um these larger scale concepts that then ultimately have the power to resonate uh on a deeper level with consumers beyond just simply the transactional relationship of purchase and use.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it is a almost like you know, a trust, right?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: You have to build a trust with your consumers that you're gonna give them what they they want or need, actually.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I say that as a woman of color because when I was growing up, I mean I was a millennial, you know, or I am a millennial.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, growing up, there was literally uh no shade that matched me exactly.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember Maybelline being one of the first brands that I looked towards and found this acceptance almost, you know what I mean, in in terms of like going to the drugstore and picking up, you know, even if it's like one or two to customize, I had the options.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that was huge for me.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: So when you speak about emotions, I completely agree with you because I'll never forget that about Maybelline.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'll never forget that it was my first foundation, you know, or something like that.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that that's that's awesome to hear that because I think that's the people misunderstand that, honestly.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean emotions.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the only way that the I really love the word the fact that you use the word trust because I really think that the only way that you can build that trust is to, well, there's two elements to it.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: One, you have to deliver on what you promise, yeah.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and the and that's how many of these, you know, long-standing brands have built their reputations, but now it's also about showing that you listen because yeah, more and more, and it's not just because of social media, but it's because everybody's more informed.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: It people are talking, you know, users are talking to brands and saying, you know, you need to stop doing this or you need to listen to this, and showing that you that as a brand, as you do take those things into consideration.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I think I a lot of big brands, and I can speak to the ones that I've worked on, is we have the ambition, we always want to do better.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: You can't be perfect, God knows there's so many constraints.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: But showing that you listen, that you take the need the evolving needs into account, that you have in, for example, all of the shades available in foundation to fit all of the different types of skin tone, that you're able to deliver um, you know, more sustainable packaging because that's something that people are looking for, that kind of thing.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: That you're listening and you're in tune with what the the consumers are needing today, ultimately that's what builds that that's try that trust and the loyalty.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that this is such a unique perspective because um, like you said, it's you know, Maybelline is this global brand.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that what you're saying, there are a lot of takeaway points for smaller brands here because there's a lot of debate around this whole inclusivity aspect, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon of, well, it's marketing's fault.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's I don't think that's entirely true.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's it's like you said, it's a very well thought out process, it's extremely emotional, and and you know, you guys are driven and you're it's like that's what I think I have the biggest problem with is that you know there is this lack of understanding right now, I feel like, in the you know, like on that in that way.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's there for Maybelline, but I think it's there for like, you know, just smaller brands in terms of well, you don't have my skin shade or you don't have my skin type represented and it's marketing's fault.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, you know, there's a lot of research that's going to them and they're acting on that.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, and I mean these big groups, we have the luxury of being large, and thus, you know, we have so much available little brands that as they start out, they're gonna start small and and then and grow.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, I really think that it's interesting that you you bring up the idea of inclusivity and then really have to use at inclusivity and not diversity, which to me is kind of the buzzword that gets thrown around way too much and for the wrong reasons, and it can be uh you used as a pretext to do things that then don't make sense.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that for me, that's you know, that's when brands can get attacked um and with legitimacy.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, if you that's true.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't listen and you don't do something for a reason uh and that's really true, and you just put something out there to put it out there, uh then yeah, you do have you do have uh right to listen.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: But I think you know, overall people out there expect a lot from brands, and as a brand you have to know that you wear a lot of weight.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you're so I think it's good to be challenging.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, people doing everything.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, but don't we all?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, of course.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: But that's why we have so many brands, right?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: We have so many different and and I think that you know, yeah, and it is inclusivity, and we are inclusive as a world, you know, in terms of beauty, in my opinion, because I can go, I know, like you know, as an Indian woman, I can go to Sephora or where I need to go, and I don't feel like I'm being left out.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't feel that way because I I have I might not find what I want in you know, this brand, but the next one's got it.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I still got what I needed, you know.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's yeah, I see I see what you're saying.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sorry.
• 20:15
  unknown: Oh no.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: You just choked a bit.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay, I'll cut that out.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Don't worry.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm gonna cut some water?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm just gonna grab some water.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's talk about um building.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we talked about building customer experience, but what about um the distribution channels of um you know getting the the word out there for like a new product launch or something like that?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: What what do you think is you know important with the whole so uh social media aspect for marketing?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean distribution or communication?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because to me they're two different things.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I want you to talk about like I want you to talk about it in your um actual technical technical way because I I think what's interesting about like so obviously communicate when you're launching a product, communication ultimately leads to distribution or or one and the other.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: They're linked hand in hand.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: But I think what's really interesting is that social media itself is becoming a new distribution channel.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: With the advent of, I mean, it started quite a few years ago.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think, you know, the origins of the whole influence culture at the end of the day, we can say is in a way it's third-party selling, but in a very antiquated model of I will use some things, talk about it to my followers, and hope that they will, you know, go and buy it.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then all of a sudden it became, well, I'm gonna provide them a link to swipe up and buy it.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: And now they can, in fact, I'm gonna sell it to them.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's given a lot of power to a lot of people.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's challenging, you know, uh, particularly this year with COVID, it's challenging the status quo of the retail industry as a whole because individuals now.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: have the power to be a retailer and to create a curated not only a curated vision of life but a curated store and it can really ultimately be anyone.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's really adding a whole new dimension to, and I don't think to be very frank, I don't think a lot of brands have yet understood that.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: I mean it's and I think the big brands will take a long time to to get into it.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think this is the real opportunity for you know these a lot of these well respected influencers to uh have a real opportunity to to dive into into this world fully in terms of becoming uh kind of curated retailers um themselves and then of course you have you know your traditional your traditional uh distribution channels which are going to be more and more shifting online I mean this year we saw such a huge shift um again you know accelerated by COVID but sort of a movement that was already happening uh in markets that are more advanced in terms of retail uh like the Asian markets when you look at the weight of uh a T-mol in Alibaba in the retail environment in in China you could see that the way that uh you know retail is going in the future is shifting strongly online and that flagships are really there just brick and mortar is there for purely sort of shopping taintment or retail taintment.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it's the distribution model right now is is really taking a big hit.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's going to be the next big frontier for for brands overall is uh one brands that don't have flagships is what what kind of experience do you create uh and what relationship do you now have with your traditional retailers you know the Walmarts of this world the um the big department stores how many of them are gonna still stay around and I think it's a really interesting time for retail right now I think you know the next five years are really gonna have a big shift yeah um and that's gonna also play into obviously how the how we have access to our brands and how we uh interact with them on different levels.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I think more and more in the past obviously depending on the tier of brand whether you're a wide widely distributed or a selectively distributed brand uh or you're dedicated to one type of channel it was pretty straightforward you know you had your your top end your wide distribution the ones that you you know you have you built exclusives with here and there you did a little bit of online and you know you worked with some influencers and did some media investment and boom life was good yeah but now it's more and more we have to question what each channel serves for um and you know there will be channels that are you know at a loss and it's purely because from a financial standpoint but they're gonna serve you in terms of image and you know how much can you invest in that as a brand and then how much do you invest in in you know in real brick and mortar or traditional versus your online and then your online what's D2C versus with your different partners and then now this whole social selling era.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: So very interesting time.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes and I and I love the the the detailed explanation of that because you're right the when you said the swipe up and shop thing I immediately you know yeah like it's everywhere and it's anyone is doing it and it's like if you have you know Instagram's I know in how Instagram like you can get like the you know the feature on your account if you have a certain amount of followers and it's like it's 10 00 that's really scary to me like I don't like that because it's yeah like I I don't know anything about and it's one thing to be a brand ambassador right but it's another thing to be selling the product directly or like you know telling your followers hey you should get this because I there's so many things involved and I think that's where marketing is important and and I agree with you that this is it it's gonna be interesting to see what happens in the coming years especially now with COVID.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and for me the swipe up is is it's almost outdated now the swipe up to buy because that's still you're still a third party because I'm telling you this is a great product and if you swipe up you can get 20% but ultimately the sale is going to a retailer.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: The future will be I've got 10 of these uh you know mascaras uh click here to buy and I'm getting the sale myself yes that's brilliant I didn't even think about that yeah so you think that uh influencers are gonna be doing that like do you think that they're gonna be shifting absolutely yeah from I'm sure that's the next era wow yeah that's very interesting um okay so here's I'm gonna shift focus a little bit because I want to talk about um what interpretation of beauty is um for a man compared to a woman you know what I mean because I think there's not enough talk about this um I'm talking about cosmetics skincare all of it because you have these amazing makeup artists that are that are male and you know you're always seeing them doing their makeup on a female you know what I mean like putting it on a female so the concept of beauty from the male perspective um I'm very very curious about so can you tell me like what you think that is and I mean I think it's shifted dramatically I think what's interesting is in the last again I want to say 10 years yeah a traditional a man's relationship a male relationship uh to beauty has shifted dramatically and I think in a way it's hard to to explain what necessarily has driven it but I think here now obviously it's much more accept socially acceptable for a man to take care of himself even though you know and we're always expected to be well groomed you just could never communicate what you were using to do it.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: You could you look at the guys in the 50s I think you know the amount of hair product that's being used there or or you know that they just weren't involved necessarily in skincare and and and grooming otherwise and it's just become much more uh democratized that it's okay to be a man and take care of yourself and even celebrated if you go beyond that and embrace um you know what would be traditionally considered to be a feminine territory like skincare like even flirting with some makeup or going all out with makeup and so I think now I almost don't see that there's a male and female vision of beauty.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's just the degree of involvement in beauty because I think that there are many women today that appreciate not necessarily wearing a lot of makeup and really just want to stick to a pretty basic skin hair routine because that's what gets them through.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: There you go, you know, your skin feels comfortable you feel good but you know you're not going to be spending the time putting on a winged liner and doing a smoky eye and you know knowing the latest trend on nail that's not your deal.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: But just as there can be a man who's fully obsessed and who will perhaps put on a full face himself or be really well versed in in that and so it's really for me more of a question of involvement.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think we're fully there on the acceptance of a male that wears uh you know full makeup or that is very you know involved in in that world but I think we're getting there uh and I think that that's a great great thing yeah because I I really don't believe anymore in in the traditional you know even as a personally from my perspective I almost sort of shy away from products that are marketed as for men.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah because I find that very antiquated at the end of the day you know there are obviously there are certain things that are specific to men to male anatomy or male uh uh hormonal system that are different to those of a female um but at the end of the day you know we also suffer from dry skin uh we also you know like to wear perfume we also have you know hair that needs to be treated we also have you know dark circles that sometimes need to go away or be hidden yeah uh and the the root causes of those tend to be the same so as long as I'm getting the best product right that's at the end of the day all that counts.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you think about gender uh gender neutral uh brands for skincare?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: I love them.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: I mean yeah in my opinion with again with the exception of you know treating specific uh ailments that you know when it comes to skincare that men have because of shaving or you know obviously that you know that uh women have that are many times impacted because of their hormonal um cycles like yeah postal stuff you know like exactly or even you know during your monthly cycle there there are things that come up that we men don't have yeah like acne yeah exactly but even acne breakouts like guys get breakouts too but acne breakouts but there are there are different causes so the treatment has to be slightly different.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: But in any case aside from those very few specificities I mean all skincare should be pretty gender neutral.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: I agree thank you yes I've been feeling that way since the day I picked up something in skincare.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what brand I think did that amazing was Kiel's yeah I love Kiehl's yeah yet they have a line for men yeah I know yep they have right but it's like their original I don't know if you remember their little um it was like a purple face oil you know what I mean the bottle I think yes the midnight recovery and that was such a great product and I felt like even at that time anyone can pick this up you know men women everybody I mean I think blue appeals to all of us.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly I mean and it's blue because it's for nighttime so it's got nothing to do with gender.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly exactly well yeah that's that's so huge to me and um thank you so much for answering that because yeah as as I see more and more like brands coming up like indie brands on Instagram I'm it's like still this like weird segregation occurring.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's like they're really hyper proclaiming that oh we're male you know male only brand or we're only this or we're only that but it's like why don't we just soften that a little bit you know what I mean like just yeah chill I'll say this you know I'm someone who's quite shall we say um involved in in beauty obviously in terms of you know I'm I work in it every day and I take a lot of care of my skin.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm very perhaps liberal in this kind of messaging I will say this that many men still like still think I'm a man and I have different needs.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's why I think and the other thing is when you're a small brand it's easier to target specifically and go in for like start with one target and then go large yeah because at least someone will feel like you're talking to them whereas if you try and talk to everyone at the same time then your message might not get through.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I can maybe you know on the flip side I can understand why a lot of those indie brands are perhaps doing that.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Even though I think you know ultimately uh there are perhaps other ways around it you know from if you start out small but we'll see I mean you look at the the success of one of these brands these indie brands that I think is now huge um and is starting to finally cross into that sort of genderless ish even though they're probably one of the most gendered brands out there is Hims and Hers.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah I don't know if you know those brands yes yes so yeah so I think you know they were fantastic when they came out with with hymns um and you know very unique in terms of their approach but again like they called it hymns because they did deal with problems that were specific to men and it was more than just skincare I mean it's full wellness and lifestyle.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: Then they launched hers.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and now they do a lot of hymns and him yeah of course and then they did a lot of hymns his and hers.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: So um oh I love that I love that yeah so you know there's and they're you know now they're launch I just saw today it was targeted for an ad for um some sort of acne treatment and things like this that you're seeing again can bridge over between uh between that and then yeah no so I think they're quite clever in in the way that they've done it being very gendered but at the same time very gender neutral.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: So right and you know what's what's really interesting I actually want to say this is a huge eye opener for me talking to you because um I think that in the um you know I come from the medical community so I can um say that there's this weird I don't want to say misunderstanding it's more of like this um preconceived notion that you guys in the beauty industry and you know you're not understanding the medical side which I think is a completely false statement at this point.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can say that because you know just speaking to you like you you're obviously aware of you know there's there are certain things right like we talked about the hormonal stuff and whatnot.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to put that message out there just from me to everybody listening that these are professionals.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: This this this is a professional career track and I and I want to believe in my mind that every you know when you're a professional you are naturally inclined to rely on facts versus you know just hearsay.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's really important uh to understand you know yeah and I mean and it's very it's critical otherwise you know we couldn't remember I said that one of the big things about trust is delivering on your promise if you're not basing yourself on facts and on reality then how can you possibly deliver?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right exactly so my last question for you Andrew is um how can we make uh skincare and makeup more marketable I know that we just kind of touched on that but um is there anything that pops in your mind any ideas that you've had about that sorry don't quite what do you mean by making it more marketable more marketable in the sense that like um do you think like if you were for example let me give you an example so I think curology and these brands that are um like custom you know like customizing your skincare are extremely marketable to everybody you know and I like that they're not it's not even just about gender gender neutral it's about more of well here's the control in your hand as a consumer.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: So you tell us what you need and then you know what I mean that's what I'm kind of getting at is of course I mean we're definitely in the age of uh hyperpersonalization and that's I think you know brands like Curology are really just the start.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you know it it's it's ultimately very interesting that you feel it I guess it kind of feeds on the profound human uh egotistic egotistic side uh that we all refuse to acknowledge that we have where you really feel like oh there's I have such specific problems that are only here for me and therefore I need my personalized this and at the end of the day maybe it's just it's the same thing it just smells different from you know what the other person bought.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: But uh that's that's sufficient for you to believe that you bought something that's made for yourself and you've probably paid a 30% premium on it.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: In any case.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know I think that for me there's we're obviously also in the age of of as people become more informed of hypertransparency and the desire to to do that.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I think you know for going forward brands are going to be um asked to be much more true and more transparent in what how they're working on different things and kind of goes back to what I said earlier about you know we're making brands taking steps in one direction and talking about them without the fear of having to be perfect and having done everything before they communicate on it.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: So you know when you're seeing um uh brands openly talk about you know uh 51% of the plastic in my bottle is recycled it's not 100% this is why but at least I'm doing that or I'm using this this type of ingredient which does this for you because and it you know it's not this other one that maybe you thought was it was better for you but you know this is what I'm using and this is why I think that kind of uh openness and that conversation is what's going to be um what's gonna make you know brands continue to to exist and the products that they create more marketable.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because you know today I'll say this from being on the inside brands are held to an extremely high standard which as I said to some degree it's true that they should be but you know everyone expects everything from everyone uh and you ex there there's this expectation of you know you have a responsibility to be perfect and flawless which is you know it's easy to tell that someone that they need to be that when you're not yourself.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah but you know there's exactly but there's only so much that uh that's possible today for many reasons uh in many different in different aspects and you know particularly thinking about recycled packaging and things like that there are limits to what can be done and sure there are brands that are out there that are able to be made of 100% recycled material for whatever reason but there are reasons that other brands can't be uh and every brand can do everything yeah and you know you can't you know I think there's a huge a profound fear of a brand saying I'm like 30% recycled plastic because then there's gonna be the backlash of like well why aren't you a hundred such and such is right um exactly yep and so to some degree like yes brands start need are going to have to be more transparent but I think consumers are also gonna have to be more appreciative of the efforts that are being made.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely yeah absolutely because there's a lot of efforts like I that's I think one of my biggest motivations behind this podcast is that the amount of effort that's going into this the beauty industry it has gone into it.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I was a magazine girl growing up you know I opened up Cosmo or opened up 17 and saw the amazing work of the writers and the the teams that went behind creating these beautiful you know just you know magazines like it was it inspired me to want to go out there and play with my own makeup.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a lot of hard work that created that you know what I mean it's not just like I I don't know why no one wants to acknowledge that it's it's kind of disheartening to see that I don't know that it's that people don't want to acknowledge it.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think one the beauty industry does a very good job at hiding what's behind the scenes and how much work goes into the creation of a product.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes it's a minimum of like two years of work to get something from an the minute that it's you know an idea to the minute that it's in someone's hands.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a lot of work and you're never working on one product product at the at a time um so but we do a very good job of hiding what's there.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I think people don't know one uh and and two I don't think people want to know on the other side you know you expect to know everything that's in it or everything that it's not in it um but you don't necessarily care about the work that that it took to get there.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: But I agree with you that there is there is a tremendous amount of uh not only work but uh research a lot of thought um a lot of time um a lot of conversation a lot of conversation yeah uh and a lot of emotion you know it's just as much as you know consumers have a lot of emotions as they use products and the emotional involvement that they create the people behind the scenes you know live through a lot of that emotion themselves as they end up creating the product and um yeah and you kind of assimilate the emotion of the person that's going to end up buying your product and and what they've gone through and what they're going through and the condition they find themselves in when they buy that you kind of take that on as you as you develop and so it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a powerful process.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah I I can definitely agree with that because I know that regardless of what you know what see I'm I'm one of those people that believes that when you go into a professional industry of any kind you have this level of training that makes you an incredibly um vigilant human being.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean you have to be extremely multifaceted.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I mean any professional I think can say that and so to really give some respect to that work and that research and all of the efforts behind that I think is becoming more and more important now especially in like the smaller influencer world right because there's a lot of this conversation going on of just you know well they don't get it you know they don't care or marketing just uses buzzwords you know they're using buzzwords like hyaluronic acid but it's like you know those buzzwords have to be used because they serve a purpose now how it's being applied I think that's where it needs to shift focus.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like how yeah how are you piecing those words together more so of course so yeah but thank you Andrew this was amazing this is so insightful for me actually thank you so much for coming onto the show.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah we would love to have you back sometime if your schedule allows it um but this was extremely extremely wonderful so thank you for your very valuable time.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well thank you all right guys uh tune in next time for another episode and please leave us some comments on um the cover art for this one and all of our others if you have any questions if there's something you want to hear about let us know um and we will talk to you next time.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys um it's me again I just wanted to say one last thing my vision here for skincare anarchy is genuinely um that of providing a resource for all of us that allows influencers and industry professionals to connect and better understand each other and understand each other's visions.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: I really want to provide content that's not only going to help the influencers out there that are very much into skincare, but also the brand new startups that are coming up um in the skincare scene, I know that it's very, very difficult to then have a a brand new company and um come into an area that is you know just so it has so many cray areas and um you know any insight in my opinion um from professionals and executives is extremely valuable.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you can make that as a resource here at Skincare Anarchy.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really looking forward to all of the guests that we have scheduled so far.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for the immense response that I've received um it's truly humbling and I don't know I just I can't tell you guys how thankful I am.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah I just wanted to pop in and say that right before the ending of this episode I hope you guys enjoyed it.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I had such a great time talking to Andrew.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've gained so much insight from this conversation and I really really hope that there are people out there like you guys that feel the same way.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you again and I can't wait to be back with another episode.
• 45:51
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• 45:59
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• 46:23
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• 46:37
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• 46:47
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• 46:54
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• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you