Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / What is Mind Altering Ketamine Therapy? Do the Benefits Outweigh the Risks?

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What is Mind Altering Ketamine Therapy? Do the Benefits Outweigh the Risks? · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

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Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. I'm sure you
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Speaker 1: guys have heard about the current trend of psychedelic therapy
1:02
Speaker 1: for mental health You might see articles popping up about psychedelics,
1:08
Speaker 1: but what does it all mean? You've probably heard recently
1:11
Speaker 1: that Elon Musk uses the psychedelic drug ketamine and openly
1:14
Speaker 1: supports the drug's use in treating depression. Today, we have
1:18
Speaker 1: Jay Godfrey on the show. He's founder of Nushama Wellness,
1:21
Speaker 1: a treatment center in New York that uses ketamine therapy
1:24
Speaker 1: as groundbreaking treatment for many people who have become resistant
1:28
Speaker 1: to all other types of treatment like talk therapy and
1:31
Speaker 1: even some medications and are sick and tired of being
1:34
Speaker 1: sick and tired. I thoroughly enjoyed my hour long conversation
1:38
Speaker 1: with Jay. I am not a drug user and I'm
1:41
Speaker 1: a little bit scared of psychedelics in general. And he
1:44
Speaker 1: laid it all out for me of why this therapy
1:47
Speaker 1: is going to be the new and improved way for
1:50
Speaker 1: people to really get to the bottom of feeling better.
1:53
Speaker 1: So I am so excited to introduce Jay Godfrey, the
1:57
Speaker 1: CEO of New Shama. And I really hope that you
1:59
Speaker 1: guys take a moment to listen to what is misunderstood
2:02
Speaker 1: about psychedelics and its uses in mental health.
2:30
Speaker 2: Hi, Jay.
2:30
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me.
2:31
Speaker 2: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Of course.
2:33
Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you, Neshama, that's an interesting name.
2:37
Speaker 2: What does it mean? So it's a take on the
2:39
Speaker 2: Hebrew word Neshama, which means soul. Okay. And it's a
2:43
Speaker 2: take on the words new shaman. And shamans were the
2:48
Speaker 2: original plant medicine healers and the original healers who used
2:53
Speaker 2: psychedelic medicine to treat what they referred to as ailments
2:57
Speaker 2: of the spirit, what medicine today or psychiatry today would
3:02
Speaker 2: refer to as depression, anxiety, PTSD, addiction, eating disorders, et cetera.
3:09
Speaker 1: So psychedelics seem to be going through like a renaissance
3:12
Speaker 1: right now. I think for a long time, obviously, people
3:15
Speaker 1: didn't know what they were for beyond just having fun, right?
3:19
Speaker 1: And still to this day, I think a lot of
3:21
Speaker 1: people are scared to try anything. Why all of a
3:23
Speaker 1: sudden has this become something where wellness companies are popping
3:26
Speaker 1: up with psychedelics as the medicine to heal?
3:30
Speaker 2: It's a great question. So these are not new in
3:33
Speaker 2: a sense. They've been around 6,000 years, you know, Mazatec
3:36
Speaker 2: tribe in Mexico, Western African groups have used psychedelics to, again,
3:42
Speaker 2: treat ailments of the spirit. And then in the 50s
3:45
Speaker 2: and 60s, Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, who became Ram Dass,
3:49
Speaker 2: started doing research at Harvard with psilocybin, which is the
3:53
Speaker 2: active ingredient in magic mushrooms, as well as LSD. And
3:57
Speaker 2: they found some great things. They found some great evidence
4:01
Speaker 2: that these medicines, when used properly, with the right supervision,
4:08
Speaker 2: could be incredibly beneficial in the reduction of symptoms of
4:14
Speaker 2: depression and anxiety and addiction. But one problem happened in
4:18
Speaker 2: the 60s, which was Timothy Leary thought everybody should have
4:21
Speaker 2: these medicines, not just those under medical supervision. So, you know,
4:26
Speaker 2: the old tale of, you know, the Woodstockification of the 60s,
4:31
Speaker 2: free love, free LSD. It became an issue for the
4:36
Speaker 2: federal government and it became an issue for our society
4:39
Speaker 2: that you had all these people strung out on LSD.
4:44
Speaker 2: And the war on drugs started at the beginning of
4:46
Speaker 2: the 1970s, which basically banned and scheduled all drugs of
4:50
Speaker 2: all sorts, including those that when used properly under medical
4:56
Speaker 2: supervision could really help people who are struggling. Fast forward
5:01
Speaker 2: to 2018. Why was 2018 different? Well, there was a
5:06
Speaker 2: guy by the name of Michael Pollan who wrote a book,
5:08
Speaker 2: How to Change Your Mind, which really talked about the
5:10
Speaker 2: new science behind psychedelic medicine, how it can help people
5:14
Speaker 2: with depression, anxiety, addiction, and even end of life. And
5:20
Speaker 2: that was really the major, major catalyst for why this
5:24
Speaker 2: third wave of psychedelic medicine is becoming a real thing.
5:30
Speaker 2: We are about one year away approximately from MDMA or
5:35
Speaker 2: what they call on the street as ecstasy being approved
5:38
Speaker 2: by the FDA for post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD. And currently,
5:43
Speaker 2: we're fortunate to have one molecule in ketamine that is
5:48
Speaker 2: a legal anesthetic medication, but also used as a psychedelic
5:52
Speaker 2: in clinics like Nushama. Right.
5:55
Speaker 1: And it's also important to point out that All medicines,
5:58
Speaker 1: I would think, when not taken the right way or
6:01
Speaker 1: the prescribed way, can be very dangerous.
6:03
Speaker 2: Morphine happens to be one of the most essential medicines
6:08
Speaker 2: of our time. If you have a back surgery and
6:11
Speaker 2: you're going to want and need morphine in order to
6:15
Speaker 2: deal with the pain, there's context for it. You would
6:20
Speaker 2: not want people on the street using morphine. You would
6:23
Speaker 2: not want people on the street using propofol, which is
6:25
Speaker 2: what They anesthetize you to go to sleep in a surgery.
6:29
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson used it inappropriately and he paid the price.
6:32
Speaker 2: So context, medical supervision, screening, they're all very, very important things. Okay.
6:37
Speaker 1: So talk about Nushama. How did you get involved in
6:39
Speaker 1: it first?
6:40
Speaker 2: So it's interesting. I'm a former investment banker and a
6:43
Speaker 2: former fashion designer, which is kind of an unusual combination.
6:48
Speaker 2: In about 2015, I started going to talk therapy. which
6:52
Speaker 2: is something that nobody talked about in my family. Like,
6:55
Speaker 2: you were punished with talk therapy. You didn't go to
6:57
Speaker 2: talk therapy and talk about it openly. But I went
6:59
Speaker 2: in any case, and in typical kind of Upper Reefside,
7:03
Speaker 2: New York, therapy was $ 300 every single week, and I
7:09
Speaker 2: never missed a week for three years. So there's 156
7:12
Speaker 2: appointments of me talking. My therapist happened to be quite good.
7:17
Speaker 2: I was just really good at putting on a bit
7:19
Speaker 2: of a charade and a show for her. really never
7:24
Speaker 2: getting to the heart of the matter of what was
7:26
Speaker 2: giving me anxiety and why I was living in worry
7:30
Speaker 2: and why I was living in scarcity.
7:32
Speaker 1: And did she put you on any medication?
7:34
Speaker 2: Fortunately not, although that is a major issue that I'm
7:40
Speaker 2: sure we could probably get into. But she didn't put
7:43
Speaker 2: me on any medication. And at the end of three years,
7:47
Speaker 2: I'd recognized I'd spent– About $ 50, 000 on therapy. And I
7:52
Speaker 2: did have good coping mechanisms. But there was still something
7:57
Speaker 2: underlying it all that was unsettled, that was unfinished, that
8:02
Speaker 2: was undiscovered. And a friend of mine gifted me How
8:06
Speaker 2: to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan. And I actually
8:10
Speaker 2: didn't read it for a while because why am I
8:13
Speaker 2: going to read a book about drugs? I've never done
8:15
Speaker 2: any drugs. I'm college. I think I smoked pot three times.
8:19
Speaker 2: It was okay. It was fine. I have nothing against it,
8:22
Speaker 2: but it wasn't, I'm not the guy who was snorting
8:25
Speaker 2: lines of cocaine, uh, at Lotus in the nineties at
8:29
Speaker 2: New York. It just wasn't my thing. I'm, I'm, I'm
8:32
Speaker 2: a pretty straight arrow. And, um, after reading the book,
8:37
Speaker 2: I was absolutely convinced that this was the future of
8:42
Speaker 2: how people with mood disorders like depression and anxiety could
8:46
Speaker 2: and PTSD and addiction would be transcending these issues. And
8:55
Speaker 2: I was very, very lucky to get introduced to plant medicine.
9:00
Speaker 2: Shortly thereafter, in 2019, August 2019, I had my very,
9:03
Speaker 2: very first psychedelic journey. I was terrified going in. It
9:08
Speaker 2: was psilocybin, or the active ingredient in magic mushrooms. Mm-hmm.
9:14
Speaker 2: And as I went through this first journey in August 2019,
9:18
Speaker 2: my whole world was completely shattered in the best possible way.
9:27
Speaker 2: There was no feelings of really being high or anything.
9:31
Speaker 2: It was really about an inward experience of examining the
9:35
Speaker 2: belief systems, the stories that I had grown up with.
9:42
Speaker 2: The assumptions that I made that were proven to be incorrect.
9:46
Speaker 2: The blame that I put on others and didn't take
9:49
Speaker 2: responsibility for. And so I came out of that first
9:53
Speaker 2: one almost a new person, but somebody who definitely had
9:58
Speaker 2: more patience, more compassion. for myself you know more love
10:04
Speaker 2: for myself and really it started me looking within on
10:13
Speaker 2: a monthly basis with psychedelic medicine to the point that
10:18
Speaker 2: in about June 2020 I I was on my seventh
10:21
Speaker 2: or eighth experience.
10:23
Speaker 1: And let me just clarify for one second. When you
10:25
Speaker 1: say experience, you aren't just like doing this in your
10:28
Speaker 1: living room by yourself.
10:29
Speaker 2: No, this is done in nature with music playing. Itching, burning, soreness.
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10:53
Speaker 2: Guide with an eye mask and you are on a
10:57
Speaker 2: mat and you are going within, not talking to anybody
11:01
Speaker 2: for five or six hours. Okay. And I mean, you
11:06
Speaker 2: have no track, you have no concept of time during,
11:08
Speaker 2: you could think it'd be 35 minutes and you think
11:11
Speaker 2: you're there for three weeks. Right. You just don't know.
11:13
Speaker 2: But in June 2020, it's right in the thick of COVID. Yeah.
11:18
Speaker 2: And I'm a former women's wear dress designer and there
11:22
Speaker 2: were no events. So nobody was buying sequined cocktail dresses
11:27
Speaker 2: or gowns or going to weddings or bar mitzvahs or whatever.
11:30
Speaker 2: And somehow seven or eight journeys in, you think that
11:39
Speaker 2: I would be devastated because my business was going right
11:42
Speaker 2: into the ground. And at that moment, I really felt,
11:47
Speaker 2: you know, some people, when they're under the influence of
11:51
Speaker 2: a psychedelic medicine, in a journey, feel like they've met God,
11:54
Speaker 2: where they feel the presence of something else. I don't
11:57
Speaker 2: know what I felt the presence of that day, but
12:00
Speaker 2: I knew that I was chosen to do this in
12:03
Speaker 2: a way that I thought it was profoundly unfair that
12:09
Speaker 2: in the middle of COVID, while everybody else was double
12:12
Speaker 2: and triple and quadruple masking, and everybody was terrified, And
12:18
Speaker 2: I should have been terrified because my livelihood was somewhat
12:21
Speaker 2: being blown to smithereens. I was okay in an unexplainable way.
12:29
Speaker 2: And so I resolved on that day to bring these
12:33
Speaker 2: medicines above ground and find a way to blend the
12:39
Speaker 2: science of psychedelic medicine with some of the shamanic rituals
12:45
Speaker 2: that occur in the rainforests of Costa Rica or Peru,
12:50
Speaker 2: as well as doing it in an environment that is
12:53
Speaker 2: profoundly nurturing and designed not as a doctor's office, but
13:02
Speaker 2: as a place where people can go to heal from within.
13:07
Speaker 2: So it's not about the medicine itself. Medicine is a
13:10
Speaker 2: tool to open you up so you can see. And
13:12
Speaker 2: once you see, you cannot unsee.
13:14
Speaker 1: So when did you open?
13:16
Speaker 2: So we opened in 2021, um, kind of tail end
13:21
Speaker 2: of the, um, of COVID in late 2021, got us
13:26
Speaker 2: a few false starts. So we really started seeing patients
13:29
Speaker 2: in January, 2022. So it's been about a year and
13:32
Speaker 2: a half.
13:32
Speaker 1: And where is it located?
13:33
Speaker 2: It's at Madison Avenue and 53rd street in New York. And, um,
13:38
Speaker 2: in retrospect, I think we were a little ballsy. Um,
13:41
Speaker 2: We not only opened a psychedelic clinic right in the
13:44
Speaker 2: middle of New York City, but we opened a really
13:47
Speaker 2: big one. And so it's the largest clinic of its
13:51
Speaker 2: kind in the world. It's 7,500 square feet. And if
13:55
Speaker 2: you would have told me kind of at the beginning,
13:57
Speaker 2: you know, am I going to fill this space up?
14:01
Speaker 2: I probably would have said, no, I'm happy to report
14:03
Speaker 2: a year later, a year and a half later, I
14:05
Speaker 2: should say. That many people are seeking redemption and renewal
14:09
Speaker 2: and rebirth, which is a story I know you know
14:11
Speaker 2: a lot about through these medicines with us.
14:17
Speaker 1: So at what point do you think people are finally
14:20
Speaker 1: coming through your office like that? They've decided I want
14:23
Speaker 1: to try this journey because I know there's a lot
14:26
Speaker 1: of fear for people like you even said the first
14:28
Speaker 1: time you tried it. I mean, maybe there are people
14:30
Speaker 1: that come in that have experienced drugs before psychedelics, but
14:34
Speaker 1: maybe there's a lot of people that haven't. So what
14:36
Speaker 1: is the point that you're seeing that people finally come
14:39
Speaker 1: into you?
14:39
Speaker 2: Most people who come to us at the moment are
14:41
Speaker 2: what they call treatment resistant. These are people who've tried
14:44
Speaker 2: more than two antidepressants or benzodiazepines like Xanax and failed.
14:51
Speaker 2: And they don't come to us because they say, I
14:54
Speaker 2: want to go on a psychedelic journey in the middle
14:56
Speaker 2: of New York City and do it legally. They really
14:59
Speaker 2: are sick and tired of being sick and tired. Yeah.
15:01
Speaker 2: And they'll try anything. And some of the stories that
15:06
Speaker 2: you see are just stunning. And as MDMA becomes legalized
15:12
Speaker 2: next year and psilocybin a few years down the road
15:14
Speaker 2: and potentially versions of LSD and Ibogaine and DMT, people
15:20
Speaker 2: are reading about this more and they're discussing their experiences more.
15:24
Speaker 2: And the 50 years of stigma since the drug war
15:27
Speaker 2: started in the early 1970s and billions, if not trillions
15:31
Speaker 2: of dollars of government money that have been spent to
15:35
Speaker 2: convince us that these are dangerous and you'll fry your
15:38
Speaker 2: freaking brains and just say no. That's starting to melt
15:45
Speaker 2: because people are seeing the results from the proper therapeutic
15:50
Speaker 2: use of these medicines.
15:52
Speaker 1: So what exactly do you guys use there? Is it
15:55
Speaker 1: ketamine-assisted therapy?
15:56
Speaker 2: It's ketamine-assisted therapy. That's the only thing that's legal right now. Oh, okay.
16:02
Speaker 2: But we deliver ketamine via an IV. So one of
16:05
Speaker 2: the benefits of that is if you're having a bad trip,
16:10
Speaker 2: because that's what people are worried about, you can stop it.
16:14
Speaker 2: So it's the only delivery mechanism where you can actually
16:17
Speaker 2: stop a psychedelic trip. You just turn the IV off. Uh-huh.
16:20
Speaker 2: And you're out of it in five or six minutes.
16:23
Speaker 1: So let's break down for people that are listening. What
16:25
Speaker 1: is ketamine?
16:26
Speaker 2: Ketamine is an anesthetic that was legalized or approved by
16:30
Speaker 2: the FDA in about 1970 as an anesthetic.
16:33
Speaker 1: Okay.
16:35
Speaker 2: The naysayers out there say it's a horse tranquilizer and
16:38
Speaker 2: that's BS. I mean, it's true. They do use it
16:41
Speaker 2: to tranquilize horses. But the most important thing that ketamine
16:45
Speaker 2: is used for is pediatric surgeries. where they anesthetize children
16:50
Speaker 2: under the age of 12 with ketamine. Adults get propofol,
16:55
Speaker 2: children get ketamine. So it's been used for 50 years
17:00
Speaker 2: as a children's anesthetic at much, much higher doses than
17:03
Speaker 2: psychedelic doses. It's also used as an analgesic, which is
17:08
Speaker 2: just a pain reliever. So people who've got really chronic
17:13
Speaker 2: pain conditions like fibromyalgia or migraines, or CRPS, they'll use
17:18
Speaker 2: much higher doses of ketamine to manage chronic pain conditions.
17:23
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until in Russia in like the early
17:29
Speaker 2: 80s where one researcher found out that people were getting
17:32
Speaker 2: anesthetized with this to go into surgeries who had depression
17:37
Speaker 2: and they were coming out with far– where there's symptoms
17:42
Speaker 2: of the depression– either have disappeared or have been dramatically reduced.
17:47
Speaker 2: And so what we do is we have a protocol
17:51
Speaker 2: of six sessions where if you come in with depression,
17:54
Speaker 2: you'll meet with a therapist before every single journey or treatment.
17:58
Speaker 2: You'll go into your treatment. You get attached to the IV.
18:01
Speaker 2: You're in your psychedelic experience in about 90 seconds. And
18:05
Speaker 2: you stay there for about an hour. And the therapist
18:09
Speaker 2: meets with you after to determine, all right, You had
18:12
Speaker 2: this psychedelic experience. Physiologically, it's creating all these new neural
18:18
Speaker 2: connections in your brain, which has been proven by fMRIs
18:24
Speaker 2: that either have never connected before or haven't connected since
18:28
Speaker 2: you were a child. Okay.
18:30
Speaker 1: I have so many questions. So hold on. One thing
18:33
Speaker 1: you said, you were talking about pediatric care. We talked
18:36
Speaker 1: about briefly Netflix. One of their biggest shows right now
18:40
Speaker 1: is Take Care of Maya. which was about a 10-year-old
18:44
Speaker 1: at the time who was feeling all sorts of pain
18:48
Speaker 1: and was finally diagnosed after seeing five doctors with some
18:52
Speaker 1: disease that I'm forgetting the names of it now, but
18:56
Speaker 1: whatever it was. And they prescribed a ketamine-induced coma for
19:00
Speaker 1: 10 days or something. And after that, doses of ketamine
19:05
Speaker 1: to keep her pain at bay. And it seemed to
19:08
Speaker 1: work for her. And then after a year, she sort
19:10
Speaker 1: of relapsed. The father brought her into Johns Hopkins. And
19:15
Speaker 1: when the mother said, well, she needs her ketamine dose,
19:18
Speaker 1: they ended up thinking this was munch houses by proxy.
19:21
Speaker 1: They thought that she was abusing her child, ended up
19:24
Speaker 1: taking her or giving the child to the state for
19:27
Speaker 1: three months while the courts got involved. And the mother
19:29
Speaker 1: ended up killing herself from being taken away from the daughter,
19:32
Speaker 1: all because of this situation with being prescribed ketamine, which
19:36
Speaker 1: the mother really believed in and thought it helped her daughter,
19:39
Speaker 1: and the hospital thought it was abuse. So what are
19:43
Speaker 1: your thoughts on that kind of thing or that kind of.
19:45
Speaker 2: Treatment I think after a couple of years of COVID
19:53
Speaker 2: and all listening to all the experts, we have to,
19:57
Speaker 2: we have to question every time we hear somebody who's
19:59
Speaker 2: an expert. I think that's one thing, but I would
20:01
Speaker 2: say the second thing I would say is any new idea,
20:09
Speaker 2: is going to face resistance. And if it doesn't, it's
20:12
Speaker 2: not a good idea. Yeah, that's a good point. So
20:17
Speaker 2: ketamine fundamentally, when used properly, is a safe medication. It is,
20:26
Speaker 2: in fact, one of the World Health Organization's.
20:28
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20:49
Speaker 2: Top 10 essential medicines on the face of the earth
20:52
Speaker 2: because of its use in pediatric populations. So it sounds like,
20:59
Speaker 2: and I haven't watched this show, the mother... Was in
21:05
Speaker 2: an enormous amount of despair because she found a solution
21:07
Speaker 2: for her daughter that the system took away from her.
21:12
Speaker 1: Right.
21:13
Speaker 2: And it's really that.
21:14
Speaker 1: Because they didn't believe in it because it was a
21:16
Speaker 1: totally different type of drug.
21:17
Speaker 2: And it was a threat to their whole existence. And
21:20
Speaker 2: that's why, you know, the drug war started in the beginning. Yeah.
21:26
Speaker 2: You know, we wouldn't want people to possibly think for themselves. Right.
21:29
Speaker 2: We wouldn't want people to be. Don't forget it was
21:32
Speaker 2: a time when the draft was still a big thing
21:34
Speaker 2: and they were going to war in Vietnam. And what
21:37
Speaker 2: if people didn't want to go to war and they
21:39
Speaker 2: wanted to have free love? That's a threat to the
21:44
Speaker 2: basic structure of our democracy. Right. So the system has
21:52
Speaker 2: always been against psychedelic medicine. But now the genie's out
21:57
Speaker 2: of the bottle. Johns Hopkins is actually doing research on psychedelics,
22:01
Speaker 2: specifically psilocybin. Imperial College of London, NYU, UCLA, University of Exeter,
22:09
Speaker 2: and the list goes on and on and on. And
22:11
Speaker 2: if you're an academic institution and a serious one, and
22:15
Speaker 2: you're not doing research right now on how these medicines
22:19
Speaker 2: in some way, shape, or form can help mood disorders,
22:23
Speaker 2: then you're not a serious academic institution. Right.
22:30
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Speaker 1: the number one meal kit for eating well. What is
26:01
Speaker 1: the difference between a ketamine-infused therapy and like somebody doing ayahuasca?
26:07
Speaker 2: Yeah. Get that question all the time. I'll start with
26:12
Speaker 2: a similarity with all psychedelics and then go in specific
26:15
Speaker 2: difference to address your question. So the point of a
26:20
Speaker 2: psychedelic journey is not to get effed up. It's not
26:24
Speaker 2: to see rainbows and butterflies, although that can happen. It's
26:28
Speaker 2: about dimming the switch on an area of your brain
26:33
Speaker 2: called the default mode network. It's the area that houses
26:36
Speaker 2: the ego, our opinions, our judgments, our search for validation,
26:41
Speaker 2: our anger. it dims that switch while you're under the influence.
26:46
Speaker 2: Why is dimming the switch important? It's because that's what
26:49
Speaker 2: keeps us in our thinking brain. When we get out
26:52
Speaker 2: of our thinking brain and into our hearts, we get
26:53
Speaker 2: to see things as they are. So a lot of
26:57
Speaker 2: people come out of these psychedelic experiences that, you know,
27:00
Speaker 2: my whole life I've been thinking that my mother or
27:02
Speaker 2: father or brother did this to me. And what I
27:04
Speaker 2: recognized is I actually embellished and made up a story
27:08
Speaker 2: that just wasn't true. And, um, So dimming the ego
27:14
Speaker 2: is really, really helpful for the therapeutic process. And so
27:19
Speaker 2: you asked how ayahuasca compares. Well, ayahuasca also will dim
27:23
Speaker 2: your ego, as will ketamine and LSD and ibogaine and
27:27
Speaker 2: all the other ones that aren't currently legal. Ayahuasca happens
27:32
Speaker 2: to be a brew, a concoction of sorts that is
27:36
Speaker 2: typically used in Peru or Costa Rica and other countries.
27:42
Speaker 2: And It contains DMT. DMT is a psychedelic that, again,
27:47
Speaker 2: is very, very strong. They refer to it as the
27:49
Speaker 2: god particle or the god molecule. And many people have
27:52
Speaker 2: intense visuals with ayahuasca but also experience the present of
27:57
Speaker 2: a godlike existence. Some people feel that they are a
28:04
Speaker 2: god during the experience or that they're speaking to some
28:07
Speaker 2: sort of divine power. Ketamine is legal or ayahuasca is illegal.
28:13
Speaker 2: and is also a much shorter experience. Ketamine is a
28:16
Speaker 2: one-hour journey. You can have very, very intense visuals. But
28:23
Speaker 2: one of the main, main differences in clinical practice is
28:26
Speaker 2: that ketamine's had kind of 50-year safety record being used
28:30
Speaker 2: in a variety of different methods. The ayahuasca supporters will say, well,
28:35
Speaker 2: ayahuasca's had 6,000 years in the jungle, and that is true.
28:38
Speaker 2: It just hasn't been done under the auspices of the
28:41
Speaker 2: FDA or... or the medical authorities in the United States.
28:45
Speaker 2: But it's being researched, and it's very, very exciting that
28:47
Speaker 2: it's being researched.
28:48
Speaker 1: One of the things I know about ayahuasca is that
28:51
Speaker 1: a lot of people's fears going into it is the
28:53
Speaker 1: purging aspect. And I think a lot of people believe
28:56
Speaker 1: that's part of it, and it's good to purge. That's
28:59
Speaker 1: not something that happens in the ketamine treatment.
29:02
Speaker 2: Is it? So ayahuasca, it's common to purge, throw up,
29:08
Speaker 2: or something else. Mm-hmm.
29:10
Speaker 1: Just as devastating. Yeah, just as devastating.
29:13
Speaker 2: Even more. I will tell you from my own experience,
29:17
Speaker 2: whatever fears that go into them once your ego is dissolved,
29:20
Speaker 2: fear is ego in manifestation. So once your ego is gone,
29:25
Speaker 2: you're not worried about throwing up. It is part of it.
29:28
Speaker 2: Can it happen with ketamine? It does, but very, very,
29:33
Speaker 2: very infrequently. And the benefit of doing it in a
29:35
Speaker 2: clinical environment is you can give somebody, you know, Zofran,
29:39
Speaker 2: which is something that reduces nausea. So it almost never
29:43
Speaker 2: happens with ketamine. But even if it does, the people
29:48
Speaker 2: who are egoless are like, oh, well, I just threw up. Right, right.
29:52
Speaker 4: Okay.
29:53
Speaker 1: So I know most people will want to know like
29:55
Speaker 1: the dirty details of if I was walking into your
29:58
Speaker 1: clinic and How do I make sure I'm in the
30:01
Speaker 1: right frame of mind? Do you organize the set, as
30:05
Speaker 1: that was called? So you're in the mindset. You're also
30:07
Speaker 1: making sure that everything around you is good. Tell me
30:10
Speaker 1: the whole thing of how to prepare.
30:11
Speaker 2: So prior to even coming in, everybody gets a medical intake.
30:15
Speaker 2: That's to make sure it's safe for you. Not every
30:19
Speaker 2: person is a good candidate. Somewhere between 80% and 90%
30:22
Speaker 2: of the people get approved. Itching, burning, soreness.
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30:44
Speaker 2: For treatment, who doesn't? People with out-of-control blood pressure, people
30:48
Speaker 2: with schizophrenia or a family history of certain types of bipolar.
30:53
Speaker 2: Those are kind of, unfortunately, those screen you out. But
30:57
Speaker 2: assuming you get approved for treatment and pass, you come in, you.
31:03
Speaker 1: And is that over the phone or is that in
31:05
Speaker 1: person also? Either.
31:06
Speaker 2: Okay. The initial medical intake can be done either virtually
31:09
Speaker 2: or in person.
31:10
Speaker 1: Okay.
31:10
Speaker 2: Then people come into our clinic at Madison and 53rd
31:16
Speaker 2: and it doesn't look anything like a doctor's office.
31:18
Speaker 4: Okay.
31:19
Speaker 2: There's, you know, silk flowers hanging from the ceilings and everything.
31:22
Speaker 2: Jessica Lichtenstein's murals all over the place. And it's really
31:27
Speaker 2: quite a lovely environment to be in. You know, people
31:32
Speaker 2: say they don't want to leave, but they'll get escorted
31:34
Speaker 2: to a private room that's no, you know, no smaller
31:37
Speaker 2: than this. And there's a zero gravity chair and blankets and,
31:41
Speaker 2: you know, inspirational books. And that person or journeyer, as
31:47
Speaker 2: we like to call them, will get all their vitals
31:50
Speaker 2: taken just to be sure that You know, there's been
31:52
Speaker 2: no spike in blood pressure. People get nervous. It's natural.
31:55
Speaker 2: And then the therapist comes in. And they sit down
31:58
Speaker 2: with you. And they'll say, Rachel, well, tell me about
32:01
Speaker 2: what's going on with you right now. And, you know,
32:04
Speaker 2: people say, well, I'm very, very nervous. I've never done
32:07
Speaker 2: this before. Or last time I did it recreationally, it
32:10
Speaker 2: didn't go well. Whatever it is. Or I'm just feeling
32:13
Speaker 2: very anxious because my mother is bothering me. Whatever it is.
32:18
Speaker 2: And the idea would be to... establish a proper mindset
32:24
Speaker 2: going in, which is what Timothy Leary talked about is
32:27
Speaker 2: the two most important things about a psychedelic journey are
32:30
Speaker 2: the set and the setting. So the mindset refers to
32:33
Speaker 2: the set. This is about planting some seeds within you
32:39
Speaker 2: so that when your ego is dissolved, maybe they'll blossom
32:43
Speaker 2: or show up for you. You know, one example of
32:47
Speaker 2: seed planting that I like going into my journeys. And
32:50
Speaker 2: it can be very simple. Today is not the day
32:53
Speaker 2: to find all the things that are wrong with you.
32:57
Speaker 2: Go in and find all the things that are right
32:59
Speaker 2: with you. Look within and see yourself the way people
33:04
Speaker 2: who love you see you. And so those are the
33:06
Speaker 2: types of seed planting we'll do. We'll do some breath
33:09
Speaker 2: work with them to relax their body. The IV will
33:12
Speaker 2: be placed. We'll turn the ketamine on. You'll put noise-canceling
33:16
Speaker 2: headphones on the most beautiful soundtracks that really are intended
33:20
Speaker 2: to guide you through the treatment. And you'll put on
33:22
Speaker 2: an eye mask. You'll recline the chair to zero gravity position.
33:28
Speaker 2: And then you're off into the cosmos. And that lasts
33:31
Speaker 2: for about an hour. And some people experience the most
33:35
Speaker 2: intense visuals. Some people don't have any visuals and just
33:41
Speaker 2: experience an overwhelming amount of love for themselves and others.
33:45
Speaker 2: People come out of their experiences sometimes with a sense
33:49
Speaker 2: of forgiveness for people they felt like they've wronged. So
33:52
Speaker 2: it's quite lovely. And people do this six times over
33:54
Speaker 2: three weeks as part of our protocol.
33:58
Speaker 1: Okay. And so how do they come off it? Is
34:00
Speaker 1: it like a drip that sort of starts to slow down?
34:03
Speaker 2: After the hour, the drip ends. And then it takes
34:06
Speaker 2: somewhere between 10 and 20 minutes to come back to
34:09
Speaker 2: this consciousness.
34:10
Speaker 1: Got it.
34:10
Speaker 2: And when you come back, a lot of people... We'll say,
34:14
Speaker 2: what was that? You'll never believe what I just saw
34:18
Speaker 2: or experienced.
34:19
Speaker 4: Right.
34:19
Speaker 2: Or I can't believe I've thought my entire life that
34:24
Speaker 2: I assume this and the opposite is true. Okay. And
34:28
Speaker 2: then the therapist will sit with you and discuss it.
34:31
Speaker 2: And it's called integration. And integration is the most important
34:34
Speaker 2: part of a psychedelic experience because it's really about taking
34:37
Speaker 2: the learnings from that experience and incorporating it or integrating
34:41
Speaker 2: it in your daily life. So it's not enough that
34:44
Speaker 2: you saw that you were not nice to your brother
34:47
Speaker 2: or sister when you're a child and you feel guilty
34:49
Speaker 2: and you're carrying that guilt. It's, okay, now that you know,
34:53
Speaker 2: what are you going to do?
34:55
Speaker 1: Do a lot of people go in it hoping to
34:59
Speaker 1: see someone from their past and connect with them or
35:02
Speaker 1: whatever that is for them? Do you see people in
35:04
Speaker 1: this kind of journey?
35:06
Speaker 2: We had a lady in recently who I think is
35:11
Speaker 2: in her late 50s. And when she was in her 40s,
35:14
Speaker 2: she lost an eight-year-old child to cancer. Just horrible trauma.
35:19
Speaker 1: Terrible.
35:20
Speaker 2: And she was hoping to see her son and didn't
35:24
Speaker 2: for the first either four or five experiences. And then finally,
35:31
Speaker 2: she felt his presence. And when she integrated, and this
35:36
Speaker 2: always gets me, so if I get a little misty.
35:40
Speaker 1: No, it's making me, it's like touching me.
35:42
Speaker 2: Yeah.
35:43
Speaker 1: I feel it.
35:43
Speaker 4: She said that, if I recall exactly the story, she
35:49
Speaker 4: said that her eight-year-old son came to her as a
35:51
Speaker 4: grown-up in her journey and basically said, Mom, it's time
35:55
Speaker 4: to move on.
35:56
Speaker 1: Oh, that's so special. And that must have been so
35:59
Speaker 1: nice for her.
36:00
Speaker 2: Oh, it was.
36:02
Speaker 1: Or freeing.
36:04
Speaker 2: You know, I can't speak to the pain That's involved
36:10
Speaker 2: in losing a child. But to let go of it, just. Yeah. Okay.
36:20
Speaker 1: I know that's a lot. We're both tearing up here. Um,
36:25
Speaker 1: I've read that music has a lot of an effect
36:27
Speaker 1: on psychedelic therapy. Is that true?
36:29
Speaker 2: It is true. Um, You do not want to bring
36:33
Speaker 2: your own playlist of Big Floyd or Led Zeppelin.
36:36
Speaker 1: Or Hall and Oates.
36:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, any of those. Really, the playlists that we have
36:41
Speaker 2: are intended to guide you through the experience. And people
36:44
Speaker 2: without psychedelic experience say, well, what does that mean? Effectively,
36:48
Speaker 2: you're going in anxious. You're going in with doubts and
36:50
Speaker 2: you're going in with your ego self. All of us.
36:53
Speaker 1: And I think that's important to point out that everyone's nervous.
36:56
Speaker 2: I am still nervous to this day.
36:57
Speaker 1: Yeah.
37:00
Speaker 2: But– The music itself guides you in in such a
37:05
Speaker 2: way that is inspirational at the beginning. It encourages you
37:08
Speaker 2: to surrender to the experience, which is a good microcosm
37:11
Speaker 2: for life, to let it go and surrender. Yeah. But
37:14
Speaker 2: to really surrender, to know that you're safe, to know
37:17
Speaker 2: that what you see, good or bad, is you. So
37:23
Speaker 2: if you see something you don't like, you know this
37:25
Speaker 2: is where you sit most of the time. Right. And
37:28
Speaker 2: you'll know you'll be resolved to change things. Or if
37:31
Speaker 2: you see something that you don't normally see, which is
37:34
Speaker 2: a being filled with love and compassion and generosity, but
37:41
Speaker 2: you don't behave like that in your life, again, you
37:44
Speaker 2: can resolve to change that. And then the music gets
37:47
Speaker 2: very chill for most of the hour. And then as
37:50
Speaker 2: the drip ends, as the journey ends, it's really about
37:54
Speaker 2: taking you out of it and lifting you up and
37:57
Speaker 2: elevating you because that is the purpose of this work.
38:00
Speaker 2: It's not. about getting high and it's not about, you know,
38:03
Speaker 2: escapism actually. It's quite the opposite. It's about going within
38:06
Speaker 2: and it's about really touching the part of you that
38:11
Speaker 2: you built walls around. Yeah.
38:13
Speaker 1: And what I'm hearing is that, you know, I've been
38:15
Speaker 1: on antidepressants before and, you know, they don't really get
38:19
Speaker 1: to the heart of why you feel that way. They
38:21
Speaker 1: cover up those feelings so you don't have to feel them.
38:23
Speaker 1: They kind of help in that way. But you can
38:26
Speaker 1: stay on those drugs for a really long time because
38:27
Speaker 1: it's not addressing why you feel that way. And talk
38:31
Speaker 1: therapy might not be enough to get to that root.
38:34
Speaker 1: And it sounds like in these kind of treatments, you
38:36
Speaker 1: get to the root much quicker. And it's almost like
38:39
Speaker 1: you're not overthinking it. It's just coming to you or
38:42
Speaker 1: you're able to immerse yourself in the experience to let
38:46
Speaker 1: your mind open up because so many of us are
38:48
Speaker 1: trapped in our own thoughts, right?
38:50
Speaker 2: That's very astute. I like to say that successful psychedelic
38:57
Speaker 2: experiences are about playing the witness. Mm-hmm. Becoming your own observer.
39:03
Speaker 2: And so you just get to see. You know, I
39:05
Speaker 2: had a few experiences in my childhood that weren't capital
39:09
Speaker 2: T trauma, but they were lowercase T trauma. And I
39:12
Speaker 2: revisited them. I was re-exposed in a way during my journeys.
39:16
Speaker 2: And I wasn't upset by what I saw. It was, oh,
39:19
Speaker 2: that happened. Okay. I get it. And, you know, I
39:23
Speaker 2: was upset at the time and I built walls around
39:25
Speaker 2: me and defense mechanisms that served me well when I
39:28
Speaker 2: was eight or nine. Mm-hmm. prevent it from happening again.
39:31
Speaker 2: But I'm in my 40s now. I got enough already. Yeah.
39:34
Speaker 2: And it really becomes you take a sense of ownership
39:38
Speaker 2: and a sense of responsibility. And one great thing that
39:43
Speaker 2: this work really does, because it is work. Mm-hmm. that
39:47
Speaker 2: it does really shift you out of blame and into responsibility. Right.
39:51
Speaker 1: You just said something that made me think of the
39:53
Speaker 1: fact that I've actually talked to a lot more people
39:55
Speaker 1: about ayahuasca, let's say, and some of them will say, well,
39:58
Speaker 1: I don't need that. There's nothing wrong with my life.
40:00
Speaker 1: I like who I am. I don't need something like
40:02
Speaker 1: that to help me. I don't know what would come
40:04
Speaker 1: out of that.
40:05
Speaker 2: A lot of those people, too.
40:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would be a waste of my time. So
40:08
Speaker 1: you don't need to be coming into Nushama just because
40:11
Speaker 1: you're at your wit's end and you need to figure
40:13
Speaker 1: out your life. I mean, it could be for... the
40:16
Speaker 1: everyday average person and still get something out of it, right?
40:19
Speaker 2: So right now, Just because of the regulations, we do
40:42
Speaker 2: have people with diagnoses. But in New York City, generalized
40:46
Speaker 2: anxiety is a huge percentage of the population.
40:48
Speaker 1: So do you have to get a prescription from someone
40:51
Speaker 1: to come in, so to speak?
40:52
Speaker 2: So our medical professionals, our doctors, if you come with
40:57
Speaker 2: a diagnosis, they'll reconfirm it or they have the ability
41:02
Speaker 2: to diagnose you as well. We don't really want people
41:05
Speaker 2: coming at this point in time for– But what I
41:10
Speaker 2: will say is that I'm a believer that in five
41:17
Speaker 2: or ten years' time, once a few more psychedelic molecules
41:22
Speaker 2: are legalized and there's more of these types of discussions
41:25
Speaker 2: that bring awareness to people who are suffering, I don't
41:28
Speaker 2: think we have to wait until somebody's treatment-resistant or wait
41:31
Speaker 2: until they've got anxiety or an addiction or wait until
41:35
Speaker 2: they've got PTSD. Right. That is cruel. Yeah. That's what
41:39
Speaker 2: the system does now. I'm hoping that people can use
41:44
Speaker 2: these journeys as preventative medicine so they don't have to
41:47
Speaker 2: be struggling. It's unnecessary.
41:50
Speaker 1: How do you know that it's working? How do people
41:54
Speaker 1: get a tangible effect or moment? Could it be after
41:57
Speaker 1: that first treatment?
41:58
Speaker 2: It can be. It's not normally after the first. There's
42:03
Speaker 2: a compounding effect, at least with ketamine. I know there's
42:06
Speaker 2: lots of stories in the research trials about um, psilocybin
42:10
Speaker 2: or one or two or three doses of it can
42:13
Speaker 2: really take your depression from, from serious to, to minor
42:16
Speaker 2: or major to minor. Um, people can get mystical and
42:20
Speaker 2: beautiful experiences after one, but really it's about continuing to
42:24
Speaker 2: do the work. Um, it does take time.
42:29
Speaker 1: And you said people come in for six treatments. How
42:31
Speaker 1: do they split them up?
42:33
Speaker 2: Generally they're over three weeks. That's two a week. Um,
42:37
Speaker 2: And then what typically happens is the research, not only
42:41
Speaker 2: the clinical research, but our internal research has shown that
42:44
Speaker 2: after about three or four months, if somebody's got depression
42:47
Speaker 2: and they came in with major depression, the depression, if
42:50
Speaker 2: it's not completely gone, it'll go from kind of major scores.
42:55
Speaker 2: There's scoring questionnaires like the GAD-7 and the PHQ-9 where
43:00
Speaker 2: they'll fill out these questionnaires and their depression will go
43:03
Speaker 2: from major to minor. And then generally after a few months,
43:06
Speaker 2: you start to actually see a little bit of an uptick. Oh,
43:10
Speaker 2: I feel myself getting a little bit more triggered or
43:12
Speaker 2: I feel myself getting agitated a little more. And we
43:17
Speaker 2: offer kind of what's called a booster program or a
43:20
Speaker 2: refresher where they'll just come in for one treatment or
43:22
Speaker 2: two treatments over time. And I think long term, these
43:27
Speaker 2: types of things where people are going to come in
43:28
Speaker 2: with diagnoses, I call them below the line. They're going
43:31
Speaker 2: to get to the baseline where they're going to be okay.
43:34
Speaker 2: And then maybe once a year, twice a year, they're
43:37
Speaker 2: going to come in to work on specific things like
43:41
Speaker 2: revenge or work on jealousy or things that people become
43:45
Speaker 2: aware of after they do these experiences.
43:48
Speaker 1: What could go wrong besides the bad trip? I mean
43:52
Speaker 1: I know that's kind of like the obvious one. Or
43:54
Speaker 1: actually tell me about what a bad trip is actually.
43:56
Speaker 2: So a bad trip– I'll give you an example of
43:59
Speaker 2: one for me. Okay. A bad trip– I was scared. Visually,
44:07
Speaker 2: I saw things that made me very frightened. Um, and
44:13
Speaker 2: I resisted the medicine and I started to, I wanted
44:19
Speaker 2: to get out of it. I, you know, you gotta
44:21
Speaker 2: get this out of me. Stop, stop it.
44:22
Speaker 1: Can you speak during this?
44:23
Speaker 2: Are you, ketamine is a little more difficult to speak.
44:26
Speaker 2: Some of the, the, uh, plant medicines. Yeah, you can
44:28
Speaker 2: speak and move and talk. Uh, it's not recommended, but yeah. Um,
44:34
Speaker 2: And I was very angry. Just a lot of anger
44:38
Speaker 2: came up and I didn't like it. And as I
44:41
Speaker 2: was integrating it, I recognized and I was with a
44:44
Speaker 2: professional who really knew their stuff. He said, Jay, I'm
44:48
Speaker 2: not expecting you in this anger right now to understand.
44:53
Speaker 2: But your anger is coming up to show you this
44:56
Speaker 2: is where you live. You live in this anger. You
45:00
Speaker 2: just don't see it because you've got blinders on. So
45:03
Speaker 2: just let that sit and sit with it for a
45:06
Speaker 2: couple weeks. And I recognized that in order to let
45:11
Speaker 2: go of my anger, and I had anger issues, in
45:14
Speaker 2: order to let go of it, I had to re-experience
45:16
Speaker 2: and see them for myself. And when I saw them
45:19
Speaker 2: for myself, I was not proud. I looked at it like,
45:25
Speaker 2: that's not me. Yeah. And we're not born that way.
45:28
Speaker 2: We're not born jealous or pissed off or competitive or–
45:33
Speaker 2: sarcastic or any of these things you look at a
45:35
Speaker 2: baby they're wondrous wondrous they're they're all about discovery so
45:43
Speaker 2: we have to return to that consciousness.
45:46
Speaker 1: Right so besides a bad trip.
45:49
Speaker 2: So what could go wrong well if someone's improperly screened
45:53
Speaker 2: so we screen out again for um uncontrolled hypertension or
45:57
Speaker 2: high blood pressure so if somebody is not properly screened
46:01
Speaker 2: and they have a psychedelic experience, whether legally with ketamine
46:05
Speaker 2: or illegally with the list of other psychedelics, there's risks
46:09
Speaker 2: of elevated blood pressure. Elevated blood pressure at a breaking
46:13
Speaker 2: point could cause a stroke. So if you– let me
46:17
Speaker 2: just say this for your audience. If you've got high
46:19
Speaker 2: blood pressure, don't consider doing a psychedelic experience without getting
46:23
Speaker 2: yourself screened by a doctor. That's a must.
46:25
Speaker 1: And also don't lie on your screening test or whatever
46:28
Speaker 1: about anything.
46:29
Speaker 2: Not unless you want a stroke.
46:30
Speaker 1: Right.
46:33
Speaker 2: What else could go wrong? With ketamine, you can be
46:35
Speaker 2: on an antidepressant while you do your journey. Most of
46:40
Speaker 2: the other psychedelics, you cannot. So there are reports of
46:44
Speaker 2: people being on these psychotropic medications. At best, it's not working.
46:49
Speaker 2: But on the flip side, some kind of negative outcomes,
46:52
Speaker 2: just really, really tough experiences. And outside of a medical context,
46:58
Speaker 2: all sorts of stuff can go wrong. You know, I've
47:02
Speaker 2: been hearing stories of people who go to these nightclubs
47:05
Speaker 2: or dance clubs buying whatever they're buying and it's laced
47:09
Speaker 2: with something else. So that obviously can go wrong and
47:12
Speaker 2: that's kind of out of the range of what we
47:14
Speaker 2: do since ours is medically supervised. But these are very
47:19
Speaker 2: powerful medicines. They need to be treated with reverence. They
47:25
Speaker 2: need to be administered safely to the right people and
47:27
Speaker 2: they're not for everybody. Yeah. But if you take the
47:33
Speaker 2: proper precautions, you know, you can really do well and
47:37
Speaker 2: transcend your mood disorders with them.
47:39
Speaker 1: Is ketamine addictive?
47:41
Speaker 2: It's a great question as well. So ketamine under medical
47:44
Speaker 2: supervision at these doses has never been shown to be addictive.
47:48
Speaker 2: You know, our chief medical officer talks about the idea
47:52
Speaker 2: of physical addiction and emotional addiction. Physical addiction is like,
47:57
Speaker 2: you know, Heroin, you need your heroin or whatever it is.
48:01
Speaker 2: Ketamine has not been shown to do that at all.
48:03
Speaker 2: There's no proof that ketamine is physically addictive. Some people
48:07
Speaker 2: say that taken in the wrong context, like people snort
48:10
Speaker 2: ketamine at nightclubs, they could be attached to the emotional part.
48:15
Speaker 2: But we, again, we've not seen it been addictive. In fact,
48:20
Speaker 2: the opposite could be true is we use ketamine in
48:25
Speaker 2: a medical context to counteract addictions like alcohol use disorder
48:29
Speaker 2: and opiate use disorder.
48:32
Speaker 1: You've done a great job explaining all of this. But
48:36
Speaker 1: in general, what would you say is one of the
48:38
Speaker 1: most misunderstood things about either ketamine or psychedelics or its
48:44
Speaker 1: use in treatment and in depression? What would you say
48:48
Speaker 1: is most misunderstood about it?
48:49
Speaker 2: Well, when I talk about it with friends of mine
48:52
Speaker 2: who haven't tried it, will I ever be the same? Yeah.
48:55
Speaker 1: I was going to say, are they nervous about who
48:57
Speaker 1: they're going to become when they come out? Even if
49:00
Speaker 1: they might not like themselves going in, they're like, but
49:02
Speaker 1: I'm okay with this. I just don't know on the
49:05
Speaker 1: other side what that will be. That's my fear.
49:07
Speaker 2: I have a lot of finance bro friends and they're
49:09
Speaker 2: worried about losing their- Their edge. Their edge. And the
49:13
Speaker 2: whole world wants them to lose their edge.
49:14
Speaker 1: Right.
49:16
Speaker 2: But they'll say, will I ever be the same? Am
49:19
Speaker 2: I just going to be this airy, fairy, hippie? And
49:23
Speaker 2: the truth is that you become more of who you are.
49:27
Speaker 2: So I've always been a very type A person. I'm ambitious.
49:36
Speaker 2: I just don't get caught up as much In the
49:40
Speaker 2: storytelling of why I need this watch or that car
49:44
Speaker 2: to need to be seen at this party the way
49:48
Speaker 2: I used to. And it does not take away from
49:53
Speaker 2: my ability to work extremely hard. And it does not
49:57
Speaker 2: take away from my ability. In fact, it enhances my
50:00
Speaker 2: ability because I've got a greater level of awareness. I'm
50:04
Speaker 2: not distracted by thinking about, oh, what's that person going
50:09
Speaker 2: to think? Or how is this person going to judge me?
50:12
Speaker 1: Right, right. What about people that are not drug users? Like,
50:16
Speaker 1: I don't use drugs. Our friend Adam does not use drugs.
50:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
50:20
Speaker 1: But because he's your partner.
50:22
Speaker 2: Neither do I.
50:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. So, but because he's your partner, it would
50:25
Speaker 1: be very interesting to have him experience what he's supporting.
50:29
Speaker 1: I would love him to do it. I want to
50:31
Speaker 1: do it.
50:31
Speaker 2: He's tried it.
50:32
Speaker 1: Oh, he has tried it.
50:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, he has tried it because he said, you know,
50:34
Speaker 2: and we're talking about Adam Weitzman, who's a friend of
50:36
Speaker 2: both of ours. And he said, look, like, I feel
50:40
Speaker 2: like I need to try it in order to talk
50:44
Speaker 2: about it. Good. Because he's a high-profile guy and he
50:46
Speaker 2: knows a lot of people. And I remember after his experience,
50:50
Speaker 2: he's like, wow, that was really cool. And he's spoken
50:56
Speaker 2: about it on the record. I think it was the
50:59
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal that did an article on investing in
51:03
Speaker 2: the psychedelic movement. And he talked about how it opened
51:07
Speaker 2: him up and really– made him more aware of his
51:12
Speaker 2: own behaviors and own patterns that we all have. Adam's
51:17
Speaker 2: a lovely guy to begin with, and I think this
51:21
Speaker 2: only helped him kind of become more of who he is.
51:24
Speaker 1: I love that for him. Okay. Also, I'm just curious,
51:27
Speaker 1: what does something like this cost, the person walking in?
51:30
Speaker 2: So ketamine at Nishama is about $ 4, 800 for six treatments.
51:32
Speaker 2: We do have a lot of access programs. where veterans
51:41
Speaker 2: and frontline workers get a third or about 35% off.
51:45
Speaker 2: We have scholarships for people in need, so we do
51:47
Speaker 2: four of those every month where people get a full
51:50
Speaker 2: scholarship if they can't afford it. And the letters that
51:53
Speaker 2: we get about the scholarship program are just extraordinary. The
51:59
Speaker 2: trauma that people have experienced out there and have managed
52:02
Speaker 2: to transcend, I won't tell you about the beginning because
52:05
Speaker 2: I'll probably cry again, but it's just extraordinary. We do
52:09
Speaker 2: group therapy. So people will go into a group and
52:12
Speaker 2: they'll do eight people in a room.
52:13
Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
52:14
Speaker 2: And they do their preparation and their journey and their
52:18
Speaker 2: integration together, which is amazing. And then we have these
52:21
Speaker 2: financing programs where you can spread your payments out over
52:24
Speaker 2: 12 or 24 months. So we do our best to
52:27
Speaker 2: make it accessible.
52:28
Speaker 1: You brought up something about vets. And it's funny. I
52:31
Speaker 1: was mentioning that I was going to be interviewing you
52:33
Speaker 1: to someone the other night. And I didn't even know
52:36
Speaker 1: that they were a veteran. And they said, you know,
52:40
Speaker 1: I've done that. I've done ketamine therapy at the vet clinic, basically.
52:45
Speaker 1: And he said that was the only way that I
52:49
Speaker 1: got through my PTSD. And it's been really hard for
52:53
Speaker 1: me returning back into normal life. And he said that
52:58
Speaker 1: that has been something so huge for him personally that
53:02
Speaker 1: And he's not a drug user at all. He doesn't
53:06
Speaker 1: believe in it. And he said that that was very,
53:09
Speaker 1: very helpful to people that had come back from war.
53:13
Speaker 1: And he was hoping that that would become more of
53:16
Speaker 1: something that was given to these men and women coming
53:20
Speaker 1: back into America to help them get through the process.
53:23
Speaker 2: The Veterans Administration issues every single year $ 17 billion of
53:29
Speaker 2: checks to to veterans as disability payments for PTSD alone.
53:36
Speaker 2: $ 17 billion a year. That's obviously also excluding the people
53:41
Speaker 2: who've had horrible traumas that don't involve being a vet.
53:44
Speaker 2: So PTSD is a very, very major issue in the
53:47
Speaker 2: here and now. And ketamine and other psychedelics like MDMA
53:51
Speaker 2: are enormously helpful. Part of the reason that these medicines
53:56
Speaker 2: are helpful is PTSD is a very, very interesting issue.
54:03
Speaker 2: diagnosis underneath the umbrella of mood disorders because people often
54:09
Speaker 2: re-experience most of their trauma every single day and they
54:14
Speaker 2: go right up to the edge of the cliff and
54:17
Speaker 2: don't fully experience it so it keeps them in this
54:20
Speaker 2: loop of fear and trauma what the psychedelic therapy allows
54:24
Speaker 2: them to do it dims their ego and allows them
54:28
Speaker 2: to go over the cliff without the fear Yeah. And
54:32
Speaker 2: so they see it for what it is and why
54:35
Speaker 2: PTSD is so, I don't want to say easily broken,
54:38
Speaker 2: but broken with psychedelic medicine because it's a form of
54:42
Speaker 2: a re-exposure therapy, but without the judgments, without the opinions.
54:46
Speaker 2: You hear stories like, oh, yeah, that was tough. That
54:51
Speaker 2: really did hurt. That really was scary. But I'm okay now. Mm-hmm.
54:56
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
54:57
Speaker 1: Okay, so for people that have been listening, if they
54:59
Speaker 1: really are interested in starting their journey, what would you suggest,
55:04
Speaker 1: not only for them to reach out to you guys,
55:06
Speaker 1: but for them personally to get themselves prepared?
55:09
Speaker 2: I think it's a great, you know, before I did
55:10
Speaker 2: my first journey, I did a lot of research and
55:13
Speaker 2: there's a wealth of information. How to Change Your Mind
55:15
Speaker 2: is an amazing book. If your listeners haven't read it,
55:19
Speaker 2: it's really a great history of the three waves of
55:23
Speaker 2: the psychedelic renaissance, the 6,000 years ago, the 50s and 60s.
55:27
Speaker 2: And then the here and now, and it talks about
55:30
Speaker 2: why there's nothing to be afraid of if they are
55:35
Speaker 2: used properly. And so I think that's a good starting point.
55:38
Speaker 2: And before doing any experience or any medically supervised psychedelic journey,
55:48
Speaker 2: it's important to have intentions. The intention could very well be,
55:53
Speaker 2: I just want to be open-minded and surrender and see
55:55
Speaker 2: what I learn. But it could also be, you know what?
55:59
Speaker 2: I got to tell myself the truth. Most people who
56:02
Speaker 2: come to us say they're not enjoying their lives. And
56:06
Speaker 2: the purpose of coming here, not to get all biblical,
56:09
Speaker 2: is joy. We're supposed to experience love and joy and
56:13
Speaker 2: live from a place of compassion and generosity. And most
56:16
Speaker 2: people aren't living that way. So if people can come
56:19
Speaker 2: in before their sessions with the intention to find that
56:24
Speaker 2: within them, because we all have it within them. then
56:27
Speaker 2: that's a very, very good start.
56:28
Speaker 1: And where can people reach out to your clinic, find
56:31
Speaker 1: you guys, get approved if they are?
56:33
Speaker 2: Yep, we're at nushama.com. Our Instagram is nushamawellness or at nushamawellness.
56:39
Speaker 1: Spell it just.
56:39
Speaker 2: So I know. N-U-S-H-A-M-A, wellness, W-E-L-L-N-E-S-S. And there's a wealth
56:47
Speaker 2: of information on our website about some of the things
56:50
Speaker 2: that you asked, how it compares to other psychedelics, what
56:53
Speaker 2: to do to properly prepare people. what integration means, the
56:57
Speaker 2: do's and don'ts of before and after. Great.
57:03
Speaker 1: And do you listen or do you read your DMs
57:06
Speaker 1: if people have questions for you now that they've heard you?
57:08
Speaker 2: You can absolutely DM us. We get back to people
57:13
Speaker 2: as soon as we can, but it's generally within 24 hours.
57:16
Speaker 2: It's always a great thing. And look, you can always,
57:19
Speaker 2: on our website, people can click request a consultation and
57:24
Speaker 2: a live human being. We'll call you within 24, 48
57:27
Speaker 2: hours and walk you through the program in a much
57:32
Speaker 2: more detailed way than I did free of charge.
57:34
Speaker 1: And out of curiosity, are you personally there? Are you
57:38
Speaker 1: leading anyone through these journeys?
57:40
Speaker 2: So I'm at the clinic most days. No, I leave
57:44
Speaker 2: it to the professionals to guide people through these journeys.
57:47
Speaker 2: These are all people who are therapists that are licensed
57:50
Speaker 2: therapists or they've had a lot of training sessions. with
57:56
Speaker 2: psychedelic medicine in one way, shape, or form. I happen
58:00
Speaker 2: to be a person who's been deeply moved. My family's
58:03
Speaker 2: been deeply moved by working with these medicines. And I've
58:08
Speaker 2: experienced a sense of rebirth to the point where I
58:11
Speaker 2: wanted to create a career out of this. But I'm
58:15
Speaker 2: not qualified to sit with somebody and talk about their trauma.
58:20
Speaker 1: Out of curiosity, has your family come in and tried it?
58:23
Speaker 2: Yes, there are members. My wife has tried it a
58:27
Speaker 2: number of times and she has had some of the
58:31
Speaker 2: most profound experiences. Her mental health was pretty good to
58:35
Speaker 2: start with, but she's really seen deeply into some of
58:43
Speaker 2: the things that maybe hold her back and some of
58:47
Speaker 2: the patterns and belief systems that are in need of Right.
58:55
Speaker 1: Well, I hope I see you again, hopefully at New Shama,
58:57
Speaker 1: because I want to be trying this. Maybe I'll bring
59:00
Speaker 1: Adam with me. We'll do it in a group therapy setting.
59:04
Speaker 1: But it's been a pleasure and an honor to meet you.
59:06
Speaker 1: And I'm really excited about what you're doing. So thank you.
59:09
Speaker 2: Thank you.
59:13
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
59:16
Speaker 1: Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
59:19
Speaker 1: and give us a five-star rating and review. You can
59:22
Speaker 1: support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash
59:26
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59:29
Speaker 1: show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast
59:33
Speaker 1: at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
59:39
Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time.
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