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56 - From “I Don’t Feel Safe” to Clarity: Martin Gebhardt’s Brotherhood Story · Masculine Containment

• 0:00
  Welcome to another episode of Masculine Containment.
• 0:03
  I'm excited today.
• 0:04
  I'm honored today to be interviewing Martin Gebhard, who was one of our members in Container 3 and is now repeating in Container 4.
• 0:13
  I'm excited for you to hear his story.
• 0:15
  Martin, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:16
  Thank you so much for being here.
• 0:18
  Thanks, Alex, for having me.
• 0:20
  Excited to be here.
• 0:21
  Yeah.
• 0:21
  Where are you, Martin?
• 0:23
  I'm based in New Zealand at the moment, originally from Germany.
• 0:29
  Nice, nice.
• 0:30
  The Brotherhood has been international from the very beginning.
• 0:33
  I've always been really proud of that.
• 0:35
  So let's jump in.
• 0:37
  So tell us what was going on for you before you joined the Brotherhood?
• 0:41
  What was the before like?
• 0:44
  The before looked like that I was
• 0:50
  having a young family with a child and a partner.
• 0:56
  And there were a lot of challenges surfacing, especially after having our daughter and
• 1:07
  I was working away, running my business, thinking that I was ticking all the right boxes like going to work, providing, in my point of view, listening as well to the needs and desires of my partner and trying the best that I can to meet those needs.
• 1:33
  Even though I felt like I did all of that or a lot of it, obviously there are days when you achieve that more or less.
• 1:42
  There were still dynamics and frustrations and especially the...
• 1:49
  statement from her that she doesn't feel safe in certain situations, especially in the way that communication happens sometimes.
• 2:01
  Very specifically around raising the voice in more like arguments.
• 2:08
  And I simply didn't know what to do.
• 2:13
  And then I remember really clearly she sent me one of your
• 2:19
  either it was a podcast or it was a piece of content where you specifically addressed this particular nervous system-based challenge.
• 2:29
  And then I was like, ah, okay, it seems like this is a missing piece that I'm missing.
• 2:38
  For context as well, I work as a therapist with people that go through chronic pain and challenges.
• 2:44
  So
• 2:46
  at work I get reflected that I'm very capable of listening, of being contained.
• 2:51
  And then it seems like the moment I'm in the home, I have a lot more challenges to show up to that standard.
• 3:03
  And I think also I did a lot of other coaching approaches, listened to many, many podcasts.
• 3:11
  We did couples coaching together.
• 3:14
  So we are definitely a couple that took a lot of action to improve the relationship and to improve those dynamics between us.
• 3:28
  Martin, take us back to when your partner told you she didn't feel safe.
• 3:32
  What was that like for you?
• 3:33
  Especially being someone who gets reflected how safe you are in your profession.
• 3:38
  To hear that at home, what did that feel like?
• 3:43
  It's a mix.
• 3:45
  Surface level, I would say, confusing.
• 3:50
  Because I wouldn't have described myself as someone that comes across as threatful in any way.
• 4:01
  Yeah.
• 4:03
  I was aware that culturally the German culture is more direct than the culture here in New Zealand.
• 4:09
  So I understood that.
• 4:11
  And a part of me felt sad about that, to receive that, because...
• 4:18
  I feel like showing up a certain way and having certain standards and being in integrity has always been really important to me.
• 4:26
  And then to get that reflection straight to the face, it stinks for sure.
• 4:34
  Yeah.
• 4:37
  And not knowing what to do with it as a man, especially.
• 4:39
  It's like, where's my roadmap on how to improve or change in that respect?
• 4:50
  Yeah, I echo so many of those feelings.
• 4:53
  When I first heard it, it was confusing and frustrating and disorienting.
• 4:58
  Because I, like you, I mean, I knew I would never do anything to actually hurt my wife.
• 5:04
  But when she said she didn't feel safe, it was like confronting.
• 5:08
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:10
  Really confronting.
• 5:12
  Yeah.
• 5:13
  So tell us about what happened after she sent the content to you and after you started to recognize that this was like a nervous system issue and that maybe there was a lack of safety for her.
• 5:25
  What happened next, Martin?
• 5:29
  Well, I didn't take too long to make the decision to sign up to the container.
• 5:36
  So I was really clear that I wanted to get on top of that because I generally have confidence in my ability to learn new skills and change direction.
• 5:52
  So yeah, I signed up for the Brotherhood container.
• 5:56
  And it was very curious for me, because I've been in this industry for quite a long time, to get reminded of a lot of methods and practices that I was familiar with.
• 6:12
  However, the level of simplicity that you brought
• 6:18
  also with a nuance and a clarity that no one here is broken.
• 6:26
  We are all here to learn this together.
• 6:29
  No one really gets taught this when we grow up as men.
• 6:34
  So that was the invitation to show up really honestly and...
• 6:41
  that it's very much a practice and you can choose to practice or you can choose not to practice.
• 6:46
  So it's very obvious that it depends on the effort and the discipline and the repetition that you put into this practice of changing your nervous system response.
• 7:00
  Martin, were you surprised with the amount of work that you and your partner had done?
• 7:04
  You had been in coaching, you did therapy, you had listened to podcasts, you were doing all the work.
• 7:09
  Were you surprised that nobody else had addressed it that way before?
• 7:13
  Very much so.
• 7:15
  Yeah, me too.
• 7:16
  Because I generally look for people with a lot of experience in their field so that I feel like, okay, there's some value that I can gain out of that interaction or, um,
• 7:31
  But yeah, it was very surprising and I really enjoyed the way that you also brought in different modalities from different disciplines and it was very much a combination of multiple approaches to create this unique methodology or approach to showing men or teaching men how to
• 7:57
  regulate the nervous system, have a language for their feelings, but then also having concrete practices in the context of the relationship so that you can practice with your partner as well as yourself.
• 8:12
  Before we jump into those practices, um...
• 8:16
  So before when you heard, I don't feel seen, right?
• 8:19
  Well, this is what I heard.
• 8:20
  I heard, I don't feel seen.
• 8:21
  I don't feel hurt.
• 8:22
  I don't feel safe.
• 8:23
  And if something doesn't change, I can't do this anymore.
• 8:25
  It sounds like you heard similar.
• 8:27
  When you first heard it, it was confusing.
• 8:29
  And you shared what it was like for you.
• 8:32
  What did you come to figure out about that for the guys that are listening that are like, I heard the same thing.
• 8:37
  I don't understand.
• 8:41
  It is very interesting.
• 8:46
  It's not so much about that you are not physically in the room.
• 8:50
  It is not so much about that you are not trying to listen.
• 8:57
  It feels like it is more the space that you are listening and communicating from.
• 9:04
  So it doesn't happen in the rational mind.
• 9:07
  It's the ability to drop into the body more, to be present with your own experience and to be able to hold increasing levels of intensity in your own nervous system so that you then can bring that to the...
• 9:26
  the relationship.
• 9:27
  Because for me personally, it was very unsettling when my partner raised certain emotions.
• 9:37
  And then I could see that my ability to be present and not defensive,
• 9:42
  or wanting to escape the situation, that was very challenging for me.
• 9:48
  And then to learn that when you set up the space intentionally and set guidelines, obviously, then that creates a practice environment where you can actually grow your capacity in relationship to your partner.
• 10:09
  And importantly as well for yourself in a separate practice that you practice for yourself, your ability to feel those feelings and emotions that are challenging because they vary a little bit from, from man to man.
• 10:24
  And then just raise your capacity the same way that you raise your capacity in the gym, at work.
• 10:31
  Yeah.
• 10:32
  Yeah.
• 10:33
  And that's very cool to see that it's actually not different at all to any of those other areas in life.
• 10:42
  Yeah, no question.
• 10:42
  One thing I always share with men is anything we've ever focused on in our lives that was important to us, we get better at it.
• 10:50
  And when you first start this practice, you're not going to be that great.
• 10:53
  Like it's a martial art, you know, your first day of any martial art is really challenging.
• 10:58
  So tell us a little bit about those early days of figuring this out and understanding what started to shift for you, Martin.
• 11:09
  What I had in the back of my mind when I started with those practices was that I'm, I'm going to trust the process.
• 11:17
  It is.
• 11:20
  important to, like for me it's important that I'm not getting impatient or expect something to happen miraculously straight away and that was also communicated clearly and the
• 11:38
  The focus on approaching it slowly and not rushing any of the practices really stuck with me as well.
• 11:46
  And that is essentially what I tell my own clients as well.
• 11:52
  So taking the time, managing my expectations.
• 11:56
  And being aware that there are days where it feels like you're not making progress at all and still choosing to continue.
• 12:04
  And yeah, it's just a beautiful mirror of life that you set out to do certain things and then it doesn't go the way you want it, but you still keep going with it.
• 12:20
  And sometimes there were moments where something really tangibly profound was happening more so in my own experience that I could feel, for example, wow, I really allowed myself to
• 12:32
  let this feeling grow really big and really intense to the point that I could feel it in every cell of my body versus before I might try to shove it down or disassociate into thoughts or fantasies.
• 12:48
  So, yeah, if you are involved and engaged in the process, you can definitely pick up on the nuances, the things that change.
• 12:56
  Yeah.
• 12:57
  in your own body, but then also in the communication with my partner from, oh, I want to withdraw, or I want to get out of here because it's too intense to, okay, I'm doing this, I'm here.
• 13:13
  And also seeing what that does to her, like how much past stuff sometimes comes up and how long
• 13:28
  listening and really untangling the past trauma or the past challenges of the relationship.
• 13:38
  And then also, there was the gold nugget for me in that whole experience.
• 13:46
  There was lack of intimacy for many months, but after a few weeks of doing the practices with my partner, I was already like, okay, this is not going anywhere.
• 13:58
  And then actually after doing this a few times, there was a change in how she was relating to me.
• 14:05
  So that she was on her own terms coming back into connection.
• 14:10
  And there was a beautiful accomplishment of practicing together together.
• 14:20
  So you have have trust in the process.
• 14:25
  It's one of the things I tell men coming into the brotherhood is to trust the process and to, you know, slow as fast and fast as slow.
• 14:33
  I'm glad that you did that from the beginning.
• 14:37
  Tell us a little bit about that, Martin.
• 14:39
  When when you're, you know, so many men.
• 14:42
  are in relationships where there hasn't been a lot of intimacy, there hasn't been a lot of connection, it's confusing, it's isolating, we always feel like we're the only ones.
• 14:51
  What was it like for you in those times where, you know, it feels like maybe you're not getting the connection you want, you're not getting the intimacy that you really would love to have in the relationship?
• 15:01
  What did that feel like?
• 15:04
  And there's a very challenging environment to live, especially when it tracks out not just days or weeks, but months and sometimes years.
• 15:17
  Years wasn't in my case, but definitely on the month side of things.
• 15:23
  And it really eats away at the confidence level.
• 15:28
  That's how I felt.
• 15:29
  Because...
• 15:32
  If that continues for a long time, it's hard not to take that on and kind of think like, okay, is something not right with me?
• 15:42
  Like, at least that was my internal dialogue or process around it.
• 15:45
  Yeah.
• 15:47
  And then also the fact if you don't have tools to work with it constructively, you're kind of in a very stuck position.
• 15:58
  And then it propels internally into those self-defeating loops very easily.
• 16:03
  Yeah.
• 16:06
  However, the very refreshing thing was when we started having our weekly calls that many, many, many men go through the same challenges and it allows people.
• 16:24
  to express in a safe environment.
• 16:27
  And the level of openness and vulnerability certainly grows as the weeks go on.
• 16:33
  And men get to know each other.
• 16:36
  They can let their guards drop because they see that the more you put in, the more you get out.
• 16:45
  Like you can...
• 16:46
  try to be a bystander in this but if you're not playing and getting amongst it then you're not making progress in the way that you you like so we all go through similar challenges in life they look slightly different maybe the details are a bit different the context is a bit different but know that if you're going through a hard time right now there's certainly other men going through similar things and there are way
• 17:15
  things that you can do to improve and change the situation.
• 17:20
  What was it like for you, Martin, in those early days when men started sharing and you realized like you weren't the only one and you weren't alone and other men were going through something similar?
• 17:31
  Like you said, the details are different, but so much of the situation, so much of the feelings are the same.
• 17:37
  What did that do for you?
• 17:39
  It was very curious.
• 17:42
  The noticeable thing for me was that I felt a very strong connection to other men all of a sudden, like in a sense like that.
• 17:54
  I mean, it's called brotherhood, right?
• 17:55
  And to have the inner feeling of that, which was something that I haven't had historically in my life.
• 18:10
  emotional conversations.
• 18:12
  I talked with female friends, for example, instead of male friends.
• 18:17
  So it was very refreshing to see how awesome it is when men actually support each other going through this.
• 18:26
  It has a completely different energy.
• 18:29
  And
• 18:32
  everyone speaks the same language.
• 18:34
  It's very efficient.
• 18:39
  We do it well.
• 18:42
  In the context of being a man, I would say.
• 18:46
  And yeah, I underestimated the gift that comes out of allowing other men to see your pain and to see you going through hard stuff and yeah, being present for each other.
• 18:59
  Practicing that
• 19:01
  with each other as well, the containment part of this.
• 19:07
  Yeah.
• 19:08
  Yeah, it's such a big part of what we build into the calls is men holding each other in containment.
• 19:14
  You know, you've mentioned a couple times when you got into the practices.
• 19:18
  Tell us about that early time of which practices were most meaningful for you, and what did you start with, Martin?
• 19:29
  I was very surprised about the walking and the time in neutral that that was presented as practices because that were generally things that I do naturally to bring my nervous system down.
• 19:47
  So it was almost like a permission slip that, okay, this is already working.
• 19:52
  And more specifically to have the conversation about sex, sexuality, self-pleasure as a man, which probably a lot of men never really talk about with their men, with their friends, with their buddies.
• 20:12
  And then to have...
• 20:15
  a way to bring more depth or more connection into that arena.
• 20:23
  It kind of helped me to...
• 20:27
  lower the dependency on my partner at that time.
• 20:33
  And it feels like it takes the weight of the shoulders as well, in a sense.
• 20:38
  It's not a complete substitute, obviously.
• 20:42
  However, it was really helpful to practice that.
• 20:50
  those were the first that came to my mind.
• 20:52
  And then I would add one more, which is the ceremony or the invitation for you and your partner to come together and to create a space where...
• 21:06
  it's safe to share and it's safe to feel and to be heard and seen in that process.
• 21:14
  So those were the practices that were really valuable.
• 21:20
  I want to dig in a little bit there and then I want to get to ceremony because I think that's kind of one of the cornerstones of what we teach.
• 21:27
  But let's start with you were already walking.
• 21:29
  You were already doing time in neutral.
• 21:31
  So when you say it was a permission slip, it was like validation that these are things we should be doing.
• 21:37
  And you mentioned the rational self-pleasure, which I think is one of those things that –
• 21:41
  It's a shame.
• 21:42
  Like men don't talk about it.
• 21:43
  We hide it.
• 21:44
  We pretend like it doesn't happen.
• 21:46
  We get really, a lot of us have really challenging habits that we acquire around that growing up and a lot of challenging opinions.
• 21:53
  What was it like for you to see it as a practice that could actually support the relationship, help with toning down or shifting sexual scarcity and also increasing your capacity?
• 22:05
  Yeah.
• 22:10
  First of all, I was like very curious when that sort of practice was also presented as something that can raise capacity in other areas of life.
• 22:23
  Because I never thought about that.
• 22:29
  And it was certainly tangible.
• 22:34
  Initially, it felt very...
• 22:38
  knew to engage in that way.
• 22:40
  I have tried other similar practices in the past from the tantric side of things, but not really in depth.
• 22:53
  So I was familiar with some of the suggested practices.
• 23:00
  But I could really see that it allowed me to stay more present
• 23:07
  In my body, when, for example, those desires come up in the context of objectification or like seeing women on the street, the ability to just stay in the center and not leak out the energy, which is a really important part of shifting
• 23:38
  sexuality or how it's acted out in some respect.
• 23:44
  And it made me more confident in my day-to-day work.
• 23:49
  I could really see how my ability to be present, energetic in my clinic and with my clients has increased.
• 23:59
  Just the natural confidence of having harder conversations.
• 24:05
  or generally being myself, interestingly, has increased through those practices noticeably.
• 24:12
  I love the reflection.
• 24:14
  For those who are listening, you know, rational self-pleasure is the act of spending time with yourself and intimacy with yourself, touching yourself, but not in an effort to just explode the energy out and just let go, it's in an effort to create intimacy with yourself, which
• 24:32
  At the beginning can be difficult for a lot of men, but so many have reflected back what you did, Martin, that it's very interesting how this act of intimacy with ourselves and building capacity with ourselves ends up affecting pretty much every other part of our lives.
• 24:50
  Sounds like you felt the same thing.
• 24:52
  Totally.
• 24:53
  It's really amazing how one practice can ripple out in so many different ways.
• 25:01
  Yeah, that's why I teach it.
• 25:02
  I often share that the first time I ever taught it, I was so nervous, I was terrified.
• 25:08
  Because it's such a private subject for so many people and it creates so much judgment and
• 25:17
  Uh, so many people have preconceived notions about being with yourself sexually.
• 25:22
  And then I taught it and I saw this radical change in the guys that I taught it to.
• 25:28
  And I'm like, okay, so I have to teach this.
• 25:30
  This really has to be part of the curriculum.
• 25:32
  Um, yeah.
• 25:33
  Thanks for sharing the practices.
• 25:34
  I appreciate it.
• 25:36
  Tell us a little bit about what it was like when you and your partner first started practicing daily ceremony, or practicing ceremony, maybe you didn't do it daily, but ceremony is, just for everybody listening, it's intentional time that you set up so that your partner can communicate to you what's going on, what the relationship's been like, so that you can really understand at a real level what's happening, and so she can feel fully seen and heard.
• 26:00
  What was that like for you, Martin?
• 26:03
  Initially, it took a moment to obviously not script it out.
• 26:11
  So I changed some of the wording a little bit so that it felt more natural.
• 26:20
  But it was a good structure that you provided to set it up.
• 26:26
  I think initially I noticed that she had a little bit of hesitancy as well.
• 26:33
  So it took two or three times to feel like there was a bit more dropping into the practice.
• 26:43
  And it was very interesting to see how hard it was for me to keep my presence in that relationship to her as the intensity of her experience is kind of going up and down and up and down.
• 27:01
  And the length of what can pour out when you are creating the space to be there and to listen and to see.
• 27:11
  her as well in her challenges.
• 27:17
  Yeah, there was the observation initially.
• 27:23
  But also that it can be over very swiftly at times.
• 27:28
  Like sometimes it's like when it's more around what happened in the day, then just investing that 10-15 minute block can really
• 27:39
  allow a deeper sense of connection on on that day where you do it so it can be also a really beautiful introduction into a date night um or just when when you come home from work and to allow you as the man as well to to drop drop the the responsibilities of the day and really
• 28:08
  Yeah, that's beautiful, Martin.
• 28:11
  I especially like how you express that at the beginning...
• 28:16
  you have an aware because you're calling this in and doing it on purpose you have an awareness of how difficult it is to stay in that moment um did that create an awareness for you of what was going on before in the relationship like if you you know you you're in that i mean i remember when i first started doing this i'm like man how often am i checking out how often am i trying to suppress and repress or not present or trying to withdraw or overrule did that come up for you
• 28:44
  Absolutely.
• 28:45
  It was oftentimes the amount of little micro moments throughout the day where a trigger would come up or defensiveness would come up.
• 29:02
  if you add that all up throughout days and weeks, it's quite a lot of time, at least there was in our relationship.
• 29:10
  So then by setting aside a dedicated space for the emotions, the feelings, and more vulnerable stuff to be processed, I felt it took a lot of the...
• 29:29
  the tension out of the day-to-day.
• 29:32
  Like there wasn't a need to create more like of those micro-dramas, if you want to call it that, in a sense that it's more like subconsciously played out dynamics.
• 29:46
  So yeah, the overall day-to-day improved quite a bit by spending time in a dedicated space to process those feelings and emotions together.
• 30:00
  so you know a lot of men report that at the beginning doing ceremony is is difficult and it's hard to stay there what is it like for you now if i make the space it is
• 30:15
  easier and there are always moments where it is hard depending on what level you go to or if it's a topic that is really like triggering a lot of historic pain or shame and those are still hard moments.
• 30:32
  However, I know now because I've done a lot of work
• 30:38
  dealing with those more unpleasant and sometimes very painful experiences that I can be here.
• 30:46
  And it's not about being perfect.
• 30:50
  It's like recognizing when you leave the experience and then having a way to bring your awareness and your presence back into the moment.
• 30:59
  That's how I would describe it.
• 31:01
  it now, noticing faster when I want to leave or disassociate, and then having a way to come back.
• 31:13
  So the containment in a clear setting, I find, works really well for me.
• 31:18
  The part where I still need to practice is the reactive containment or the responsive containment when you're doing the day-to-day and the challenge comes up.
• 31:28
  This is the part where I still
• 31:32
  find it a little bit more challenging.
• 31:35
  However, I would say it has also improved.
• 31:38
  But I personally do better when you sit down and you just focus on that containment piece and that ceremony piece.
• 31:47
  If I've got other things going on, it's harder for me to stay contained in that level.
• 31:53
  And this might be just a personality trait of mine.
• 31:59
  Yeah.
• 32:00
  Yours and so many other men in the brotherhood.
• 32:05
  By the way, including me.
• 32:08
  You know, I think especially for me in the early days, I got very good at active containment in the ceremony of calling her in and having it, you know, be set up and I knew what was coming.
• 32:20
  Yeah.
• 32:22
  And that helped improve responsive containment.
• 32:25
  But when I was caught off guard, and still sometimes even today, like there's no perfection here.
• 32:30
  You know, anybody who practices this needs to understand there's no perfection.
• 32:33
  We're looking for progress.
• 32:34
  And there's still times even today where I'll be triggered and I'll...
• 32:38
  start to react and not respond.
• 32:41
  And so my emotions flush.
• 32:43
  And I think, you know, this is like a lifelong journey.
• 32:46
  It's for us as men to understand that we don't have to react to every trigger, that every trigger is an opportunity to understand what's going on for us, not necessarily an opportunity to withdraw or explode or, you know, anything else.
• 33:00
  And it sounds like
• 33:01
  For you, I think it's a journey.
• 33:03
  It's like looking at instead of one moment, the entire period of time, like have things gotten better?
• 33:13
  Yeah, I agree.
• 33:16
  And they certainly have.
• 33:17
  I mean, the relationship has shifted over the month now into a different space.
• 33:27
  And also, we made some choices to change how we relate as well.
• 33:35
  But I would say the...
• 33:38
  The practices and the space that I participate in in the Brotherhood container has really helped me to stay present when things get really hard and a lot of tough decisions have to be made.
• 33:55
  And knowing that you have other men that are on your team going through whatever you go through, that has been really paramount for me.
• 34:04
  And that's also the reason why I decided to continue again into the next container to keep up the practice for myself and to stay accountable to myself and to bring in that support network that is often missing in a man's life.
• 34:23
  Yeah, yeah, I'm so honored you joined again, Martin.
• 34:27
  Give us just maybe some of your experience.
• 34:31
  So, yeah.
• 34:32
  You shared that before the brotherhood, it was a young family.
• 34:36
  You know, there was like your partner expressed that she didn't feel safe.
• 34:41
  Your wife expressed she didn't feel safe.
• 34:43
  You know, you had this contrast to being in a position where you were providing safety for other people professionally.
• 34:49
  And you shared that like intimacy would disappear for periods of time.
• 34:56
  How has the relationship improved?
• 34:57
  What is it like now with her?
• 35:00
  Um, so the, it is interesting because a few months have passed since then.
• 35:06
  So the relationship in the first container has improved to the, to the point that intimacy started reappearing.
• 35:18
  Um, and there was sex, um, again after many months of not, um,
• 35:25
  As a consequence of that increased level of openness, we also had more real communication with each other.
• 35:36
  So at this point, we're actually shifting back into a co-parenting relationship because both of us realized through...
• 35:47
  what we were going through that it's actually not what both of us want moving forward.
• 35:54
  So it sounds almost like negative, but it is actually more like a beautiful side effect of trying to improve the relationship in the context of a romantic relationship and then noticing
• 36:15
  what I want, but also allowing her to see more clearly what she desires and wants, and then making a very mature and adult decision to transition the relationship moving forward.
• 36:29
  That's where we're sitting at at the minute.
• 36:32
  It's so interesting, Martin.
• 36:33
  You know, when I started this work, I did not expect to have this part of the conversation.
• 36:39
  But you're not the first, not even the first guy on a podcast that I've had this conversation with, where once there's a level of containment and once there's a level of safety in the relationship that one or both partners realizes is.
• 36:53
  hey, this might not be the right relationship the way we're doing it right now.
• 36:57
  Maybe this needs to shift from us being in a romantic relationship to co-parenting or from being in a romantic relationship to friends or in at least one case it was from being in a romantic connected relationship to really not being in relationship.
• 37:11
  How important has that realization been for you?
• 37:14
  It's paramount.
• 37:15
  Like, that's been something that,
• 37:22
  I have had challenges in past relationships as well.
• 37:28
  And also it was something that crossed my mind a few times over the eight years that we've been in a relationship.
• 37:38
  But I never had...
• 37:40
  a good compass or like maybe not enough trust or clarity in myself to make that decision.
• 37:52
  And really working on the ability to hold capacity in the more intense emotional situations gave me more space to actually feel what's true and also to be more clear
• 38:08
  Yes, I can contain and be present for her, but I can also be present for me and have a clearer understanding what I will participate in and where my line is as well.
• 38:22
  So I think that element of the practice that we went through.
• 38:28
  Yeah.
• 38:30
  made it more clear to me what I desire in a relationship as well.
• 38:35
  And that actually after investing a lot of energy, time into improving the relationship, that it was actually time to transition into something new.
• 38:46
  Hmm.
• 38:49
  It's interesting, Martin, as you say that, I don't know, like I read like a level of confidence and a level of optimism.
• 38:57
  Is that me making it up or is that how it feels?
• 38:59
  No, that's, it's an interesting one.
• 39:02
  Like the decision part was really clear and I feel very confident about it.
• 39:09
  And yeah.
• 39:11
  I would lie if I'd say it's not hard because going through a separation or that transition into a different form of relating with a child involved is arguably very hard.
• 39:26
  And it feels very hard in some ways.
• 39:31
  But man, like having people to share that with, like last call, that was really awesome to just talk about it.
• 39:42
  And also now I'm way better at letting other people in my private life into those experiences.
• 39:49
  Like I feel my ability to just share myself with other people has increased a lot.
• 39:56
  Yeah.
• 39:58
  And I think that makes me more comfortable, even though it's a very challenging situation to navigate and to walk through at the moment as well.
• 40:09
  So that's true as well, that there is challenge and it's not just smooth sailing.
• 40:20
  Yeah, no, I wouldn't assume that it is, but...
• 40:23
  Um, but yeah, like I said, I, I, I can see and feel not, not a feel more than hear or see.
• 40:31
  I really feel that there's like a level of confidence and optimism, even though it has to be an incredibly difficult decision and incredibly difficult situation.
• 40:41
  You know, what I often share with men is, um, the more difficult the situation, the more containment will keep you in it and help you get through it.
• 40:49
  And it sounds like that's true for you.
• 40:51
  Yeah, 100%.
• 40:53
  Yeah, definitely.
• 40:55
  So Martin, if there's a guy out there who's considering getting into this work, this work that's not easy, and it might be some of the hardest work we do as men, and he's considering joining the Brotherhood, what would you tell him?
• 41:11
  Yeah, if you're already considering it, then definitely give it a try and take action.
• 41:17
  There's not anything that you can regret about the decision.
• 41:22
  If anything, there's only a lot of skills, connection, and maybe a more clear vision of your future to be gained out of this process.
• 41:37
  Hmm.
• 41:39
  That's awesome, Martin.
• 41:41
  One last question.
• 41:42
  Is there anything I didn't ask that you'd like to share?
• 41:44
  Is there anything in your experience that didn't come up that you'd like people to know?
• 41:49
  No, I feel like that was very complete, and I really appreciate you asking the questions.
• 41:55
  And it was nice to reflect together with you on the last months.
• 42:02
  Yeah, same here, Martin.
• 42:03
  Yeah, I appreciate your...
• 42:06
  your vulnerability and the way that you've showed up to help other men who are listening.
• 42:11
  And I also have really enjoyed having you both in the third container and again now in the fourth.
• 42:16
  And I look forward to seeing you Friday.
• 42:18
  Yeah, likewise, Alex.
• 42:20
  Thank you very much.
• 42:21
  My pleasure, brother.
• 42:23
  If you are a man who's listening to this podcast and you related to anything that Martin shared and you'd like to jump into this work, I'd be so honored to walk this path with you.
• 42:32
  You can go to thebrotherhoodsociety.com and sign up for our wait list to get our emails or just jump into an interview so that you can be in the next container.
• 42:42
  I'd love to meet you in person and would love to see you there.
• 42:45
  And one last time, Martin, thank you so much, brother.
• 42:49
  Thanks, Alex.