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Killer Thriller: If You’re Not watching Maternal Instinct, Here’s Why You Have To · Legally Brunette

0:13
Speaker 1: Hi. Everyone, It's Jen from Killer Thriller Docu Edition here
0:17
Speaker 1: with Alisa Donovan, host of Killer Thriller. Hi, my girl, Hello, Hello, Hello. Hi.
0:24
Speaker 1: If you guys are true crime fans, you know there's
0:27
Speaker 1: a ton of great content out there right now. Documentaries, docuseries, dramatizations.
0:33
Speaker 1: There's always something new to watch. And today Miss Elisa
0:36
Speaker 1: and I are talking about some of our favorite binge
0:38
Speaker 1: worthy true crime shows. So we're gonna compare notes, We're
0:41
Speaker 1: gonna swap recommendations, We're gonna share, spare some opinions. No
0:45
Speaker 1: doubt we're gonna end up with a few new titles
0:47
Speaker 1: on our watch list. So let's get into it. Okay,
0:50
Speaker 1: my girl, So you want to start, tell me what's
0:53
Speaker 1: going on with you? What are you sure?
0:55
Speaker 2: I mean, aside from because as you know, neither of
0:58
Speaker 2: us sleep, so we have a lot of a lot
1:00
Speaker 2: of time on our hands now. So I the first
1:04
Speaker 2: one that I want to talk to you about is
1:06
Speaker 2: because I just did this interview with Joe Berlinger. He
1:09
Speaker 2: is the director of Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil and Vile,
1:13
Speaker 2: which is very title nineteen. So interesting thing about this title.
1:17
Speaker 2: This is about Ted Bundy, but his relationship with Liz Kendall,
1:21
Speaker 2: his girl, his longtime girlfriend that continued to support him
1:24
Speaker 2: even while he was in on trial. So Joe directed
1:32
Speaker 2: that that title comes from what the judge in the
1:36
Speaker 2: actual case said to Ted once he was convicted. He
1:41
Speaker 2: said that his crimes were extremely wicked, shockingly evil and vile.
1:46
Speaker 2: So that's where the title comes from. But so Joe,
1:48
Speaker 2: who is he's an expert at Ted Bundy. He also
1:53
Speaker 2: did the documentary Confession Conversations with a Killer Ted Bundy, right,
2:01
Speaker 2: So he did both of these at the same time,
2:04
Speaker 2: and he also talked about he's so fascinating, he's a
2:08
Speaker 2: wealth of information and he's super super smart, And he
2:11
Speaker 2: talked about why he started to get involved in this
2:14
Speaker 2: sort of thing in the first place and make these
2:17
Speaker 2: films is because well, he talked specifically about Ted Bundy,
2:23
Speaker 2: like why he started to make the movie about Ted
2:26
Speaker 2: Bundy because he has young daughters and at the time,
2:30
Speaker 2: one was just finishing college, one was going into college,
2:34
Speaker 2: and neither of them knew who Ted Bundy was. And
2:37
Speaker 2: he was sort of flabbery asted by that.
2:40
Speaker 1: Because I don't think my kids would know, right.
2:43
Speaker 2: And he really, you know, preyed upon these college women
2:48
Speaker 2: that were educated and at this point in their lives,
2:53
Speaker 2: and so he went, oh my gosh, this is almost
2:56
Speaker 2: like this is actually an important movie to make and
2:58
Speaker 2: to show the sign of how you can be manipulated
3:03
Speaker 2: by someone like this, Like just because someone's charming and
3:07
Speaker 2: handsome and smart does not mean that they are not dangerous.
3:10
Speaker 2: And he also talks about his own abuse when he
3:15
Speaker 2: was a kid and why he turned that into art
3:20
Speaker 2: and education and making these documentaries. Mainly The Extremely Wicked
3:25
Speaker 2: is I believe one of the if not the only,
3:28
Speaker 2: narrative movie that he made. But it's a phenomenal movie,
3:33
Speaker 2: and he is just like he's incredibly forthcoming, and he
3:38
Speaker 2: was just it was unbelievable because you know, Ted Bundy,
3:42
Speaker 2: you know, is like he's one of He's like the
3:46
Speaker 2: definition of diabolical.
3:48
Speaker 1: The iconic, evil, freaky murderer.
3:52
Speaker 2: Right, yes, who really kind of broke apart this idea
3:56
Speaker 2: of how we envision and dangerous people. Right. It's not
4:02
Speaker 2: that because he was charming. He was so charming. So
4:05
Speaker 2: this is why it was so important that he cast
4:07
Speaker 2: zach Efron as Ted Bundy exactly, and he wanted to
4:12
Speaker 2: really put that in people's faces. How this was and
4:15
Speaker 2: especially at that moment, Zach was, you know, so beloved
4:19
Speaker 2: and so famous for these really jovial, light wonderful.
4:23
Speaker 1: School musical right, yes, yes, right, yeah, yeah that was
4:27
Speaker 1: not a Ted Bundy character for sure. No, yeah, no,
4:31
Speaker 1: I want to I'm now I'm actually dying. I hate
4:34
Speaker 1: using that word when we talk through crime. Anyway, I'm
4:37
Speaker 1: dying to see it. First of all, I do love
4:40
Speaker 1: zac Efron yep, and talk about like good looking and charming.
4:44
Speaker 1: But not only do I want to watch it, I
4:46
Speaker 1: want specifically my daughter, yes, to watch it with me.
4:50
Speaker 2: Yes.
4:51
Speaker 1: I think that it is a very that's a very
4:53
Speaker 1: interesting way that a director becomes involved in something is
4:59
Speaker 1: to really want to protect his.
5:01
Speaker 2: Daughters, right, yes, yes, And it's beautifully it's really well crafted.
5:06
Speaker 2: And Lily Collins is phenomenal who plays less Yeah, she's
5:11
Speaker 2: so good, she's so so, so good, and it's really
5:14
Speaker 2: her her story. Uh, it's just you got to see it.
5:18
Speaker 1: You got to see it, yeah, because you think, how
5:20
Speaker 1: can someone actually love this monster?
5:24
Speaker 2: Correct?
5:25
Speaker 1: Right?
5:25
Speaker 2: Yep?
5:26
Speaker 1: Okay, yep, Okay, so that's on the list.
5:28
Speaker 2: Yes, I'll tell you.
5:29
Speaker 1: Okay, So I just got done watching Michael Jackson the
5:33
Speaker 1: verdict and wow. So well, first of all, I have
5:38
Speaker 1: not seen Michael, have you?
5:40
Speaker 2: I have, and I went to the premiere of Michael
5:43
Speaker 2: Get Out the movie, which you know, it's it's so
5:47
Speaker 2: controversial because you say, okay, is it okay that we
5:50
Speaker 2: still celebrate this person's music when these allegations though no
5:56
Speaker 2: one he wasn't found guilty of any of them, it
5:58
Speaker 2: does not mean he is not guilty because we're paid off,
6:01
Speaker 2: et cetera.
6:02
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting the timing of it, all right, because
6:06
Speaker 1: this documentary came out right about at the same time
6:10
Speaker 1: as Michael, and so I was or I'm going to
6:14
Speaker 1: interview Diane Diamond got pushed off a little bit. She
6:18
Speaker 1: is the one who she's an investigative journalist. She originally
6:21
Speaker 1: broke the original abuse allegation, so back in nineteen ninety three,
6:27
Speaker 1: and so yeah, so it's kind of crazy. I have
6:31
Speaker 1: not seen Michael specifically. When I found out I was
6:33
Speaker 1: doing this, I just waited because I wanted to have
6:37
Speaker 1: to not be swayed in any way when I was
6:40
Speaker 1: watching it. So it's three part series and what is
6:44
Speaker 1: so crazy about it? Right? I was there? You were there? Yeah,
6:47
Speaker 1: you know, the story. We know how this went down.
6:49
Speaker 1: So there was a lot of wow, oh my god,
6:51
Speaker 1: I remember that. I remember that, like when he got
6:53
Speaker 1: up on the on the top of the suv and
6:55
Speaker 1: danced in Yes, all of the fans at the courthouse
6:58
Speaker 1: and all of us right. Which was so interesting about
7:01
Speaker 1: the way this was made is that so you would
7:05
Speaker 1: see it from the prosecution side, certainly from Diane Diamond's side,
7:10
Speaker 1: and they would make a case for the fact that
7:12
Speaker 1: he was a child molester. And so the prosecution would
7:16
Speaker 1: lay out all of these facts, right, and there were
7:19
Speaker 1: all of these witnesses, and all of a sudden, the
7:21
Speaker 1: defense would swoop in and you would see how they
7:24
Speaker 1: could discredit these witnesses and the accounts. Okay. So, for instance,
7:31
Speaker 1: there was a mother who was put on the stand,
7:34
Speaker 1: put on the stand by the prosecution, and she said
7:37
Speaker 1: that her son had been molested by Michael, and she
7:43
Speaker 1: had all of this information right. And then the defense
7:46
Speaker 1: finds out that this same mother had sued J. C.
7:50
Speaker 1: Penny her son had been shoplifting years before, her son
7:55
Speaker 1: had been shoplifting, and it turned into a fistfight with
7:58
Speaker 1: the security guard of JC Penny and her because the
8:03
Speaker 1: son was shoplifting. This is how it's told. I don't
8:06
Speaker 1: know if it was allegedly shoplifting, but I believe it
8:08
Speaker 1: was told shoplifting. And then she sues J. C. Penny
8:13
Speaker 1: for damages, you know, for millions of dollars.
8:16
Speaker 2: Right, oh, right, So then they're like, this is a
8:20
Speaker 2: systemic problem with this one.
8:21
Speaker 1: Bactly sets it up, like, you know, here's this great
8:26
Speaker 1: witness that's coming in and boom, all of a sudden,
8:29
Speaker 1: like cut off at the knees. They even the prosecution
8:32
Speaker 1: brings in Michael's ex wife who he had. I don't
8:34
Speaker 1: know if you remember, but he had two kids with
8:36
Speaker 1: Debbie Rote exactly, so they bring her in. She's supposed
8:39
Speaker 1: to be another star witness, right for the prosecution. She
8:43
Speaker 1: takes one look at Michael. Michael takes one look of her,
8:46
Speaker 1: and her whole story apparently changes into I love him,
8:51
Speaker 1: I have no doubt that he's a good father. So like,
8:54
Speaker 1: the prosecution brings him in and she turns out to
8:56
Speaker 1: be a witness for the defense. Now, oh gosh, so
9:00
Speaker 1: much in this documentary, so much evidence against him. So
9:05
Speaker 1: but it was the interesting part is watching it how
9:08
Speaker 1: the defense countered the prosecution at almost every turn right,
9:14
Speaker 1: exactly right, and so it's definitely watching it through a
9:19
Speaker 1: different lens.
9:19
Speaker 2: So the thing I will say about I'm definitely watching that.
9:25
Speaker 2: And the thing I will say about the movie Michael
9:27
Speaker 2: is that they they cover his childhood up until Big fame.
9:34
Speaker 2: So I feel like it ends maybe around the beat
9:37
Speaker 2: It era, I'm not sure, but they don't cover the allegations,
9:42
Speaker 2: and they weren't allowed to. Apparently they shot a whole
9:45
Speaker 2: other ending and it had to be removed from the film.
9:48
Speaker 2: But I will say they set up his life in
9:52
Speaker 2: such a way that shows you this was not a
9:56
Speaker 2: normal childhood. Right.
9:57
Speaker 1: It was abused.
9:58
Speaker 2: This boy was abused and also like put to work
10:02
Speaker 2: in a way that his siblings were not. I mean,
10:05
Speaker 2: they all were to a certain extent, but Michael, once
10:08
Speaker 2: he became the cash cow for the family, he had
10:12
Speaker 2: no childhood. So then you can put together I was
10:15
Speaker 2: putting together in my mind. Okay, so now this lays
10:19
Speaker 2: out how this may just wanted to play with kids,
10:22
Speaker 2: wanted to be a kid, wanted to have a childhood.
10:25
Speaker 2: Now that does not make it right or you know,
10:27
Speaker 2: but it just sort of gives.
10:29
Speaker 1: There's that line though, between right, like wanted to hang
10:31
Speaker 1: out with kids and act like a child and actually
10:33
Speaker 1: be a predator, right, and so, and everyone in the
10:38
Speaker 1: documentary is so compelling and you know, really to this
10:42
Speaker 1: day believes in their own evidence. So it's like it's
10:48
Speaker 1: it's very weird. And they even show at one point,
10:50
Speaker 1: they don't show it, but they talk about how at
10:52
Speaker 1: one point they were playing like this guy Martin b
10:57
Speaker 1: Cher had done this when Diana Princess Diana, he had
11:00
Speaker 1: done the documentary.
11:01
Speaker 2: He did an interview with him. Do you remember that, Yeah,
11:04
Speaker 2: well that's what.
11:04
Speaker 1: Well, they played the whole thing for the jury in
11:06
Speaker 1: this documentary, and so they played for the jury. And
11:10
Speaker 1: the problem is that as they're playing it, so it
11:12
Speaker 1: was the prosecution that wanted it shown, because Martin b
11:15
Speaker 1: schert uncovers starts to talk to about why are you
11:18
Speaker 1: sleeping in bed with all these little boys? But as
11:21
Speaker 1: they're playing it, they see the jury and they say
11:23
Speaker 1: even one of the prosecuting attorneys they're taping their feet
11:27
Speaker 1: because there's all this music to it, right, so the
11:31
Speaker 1: jury is sort of like getting swept up in his talent.
11:35
Speaker 1: And so it's so complicated yep, And it's yeah, it's
11:40
Speaker 1: really it's really good. I think I'll probably go into
11:42
Speaker 1: Michael because I do want to see it in a different.
11:44
Speaker 2: With a different So I'll be curious to see what
11:47
Speaker 2: you think about that, because it is I feel like
11:49
Speaker 2: they do not shy away from it in terms of
11:52
Speaker 2: like setting up just even his odd behavior, you know,
11:56
Speaker 2: with animals, right and like all of that stuff, Like
11:59
Speaker 2: none of that is you know, I hate to say
12:02
Speaker 2: normal because I feel like I'm weird. But I'm not weird,
12:05
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like this is outer limits,
12:07
Speaker 2: this is.
12:08
Speaker 1: Not I don't see you as weird at all, Lisa.
12:11
Speaker 1: But okay, all right, so wait, what's okay?
12:14
Speaker 2: So?
12:15
Speaker 1: Yeah? That was that. That's a really interesting one.
12:17
Speaker 2: I'm definitely gonna yea check that out. Yeah, okay, So
12:34
Speaker 2: my other one, I just interviewed Danny Strong, who is
12:40
Speaker 2: just extraordinarily talented. He's award winning writer, director, and actor.
12:45
Speaker 2: He created, he created, executive produced, and show ran Dope Sick,
12:50
Speaker 2: the Emmy winning, acclaimed Hulu drama series that was adapted
12:56
Speaker 2: from Beth Macy's book.
12:57
Speaker 1: Right, wait, Lisa, is this the one with Michael Keaton?
13:00
Speaker 2: Yes, with Michael Keaton? Is it not just I. It
13:07
Speaker 2: is one of the most powerful, upsetting, moving, beautiful series.
13:12
Speaker 2: And it's so complex, like it covers so many areas
13:17
Speaker 2: of the FBI side. And you have the DEA and
13:21
Speaker 2: the DEA agent played by Rosaria Dawson, who is like
13:25
Speaker 2: her exhaustion level at what she went through with this family.
13:29
Speaker 2: So the Sacklers, who are the owners and creators of
13:33
Speaker 2: Purdue Pharma and the major beneficiaries of all of their
13:41
Speaker 2: just their they own the company, and they were so deceitful,
13:46
Speaker 2: and so they they knowingly created this drug and pedaled
13:52
Speaker 2: it as something that was non addictive, and it was
13:55
Speaker 2: fiercely addictive because everyone knows that opioids are very, very addictive.
14:00
Speaker 2: It's it's harder, you know, to quit than anything. And
14:05
Speaker 2: so they advertised, pedaled, sold this drug as non addictive
14:13
Speaker 2: ox OxyContin and then they they kept they kept upping
14:18
Speaker 2: it when people became so they started to create this
14:21
Speaker 2: lingo and language like break through pain and individualize the
14:26
Speaker 2: dose and blame the abuser. When all of these things,
14:31
Speaker 2: it's like they they legitimize it by creating this terminology
14:35
Speaker 2: and all of it. It's all lies. Something like four
14:39
Speaker 2: hundred thousand people died from overdoses of OxyContin alone.
14:44
Speaker 1: I remember this, yeah.
14:46
Speaker 2: It and Danny is like, first of all, Danny and
14:49
Speaker 2: I know each other. He was an actor back in
14:52
Speaker 2: the day. He did a couple of episodes of the
14:54
Speaker 2: series of Clueless, and we sort of had these little
14:56
Speaker 2: kapers together, so I just did him. And he was
15:00
Speaker 2: so funny and so smart, and so he is, Uh,
15:05
Speaker 2: he's just a wealth of information and is an incredible
15:08
Speaker 2: showrunner and he has really made this a part of
15:12
Speaker 2: his life's work to get this information out. And it's
15:16
Speaker 2: also really great to understand addiction more. He talked about
15:21
Speaker 2: how he really didn't understand what addicts go through, in
15:26
Speaker 2: in particular opioid addicts, and then the just despicable greed
15:32
Speaker 2: of the Sackler family and how even when they knew
15:36
Speaker 2: when they were going to court and getting sued, they
15:39
Speaker 2: still they would get through that case and then they
15:42
Speaker 2: would double down on the advertising and double down on that.
15:46
Speaker 1: It was I remember I remember being so taken with
15:51
Speaker 1: also Michael Keaton's performance, and so the way that he
15:56
Speaker 1: as the doctor who was prescribing it, right, I remembering.
16:00
Speaker 2: This correctly, Yes, And then he beco killed and then he.
16:02
Speaker 1: Becomes addicted and then the young girl I'm not giving it.
16:05
Speaker 2: Katelyn, Katelyn Deaver. She's so phenomenal.
16:09
Speaker 1: And I remember her in that tent at the end. Yes,
16:13
Speaker 1: I mean those images. I haven't thought about this a
16:16
Speaker 1: long time really, but those images were haunting. The acting
16:20
Speaker 1: that was unbelievable.
16:22
Speaker 2: So and as a mother, her mother having to go
16:25
Speaker 2: look for her in those environments.
16:28
Speaker 1: Yes, oh yeah, that was great. I remember watching it again.
16:32
Speaker 1: I always keep saying this, but when I say something
16:34
Speaker 1: is great, it was so it was like tragic.
16:36
Speaker 2: Well right, I mean that's the thing about the narrative,
16:39
Speaker 2: you know, the actual movies and TV shows about these things. Everybody,
16:44
Speaker 2: you know, this is why. One of the things that's
16:46
Speaker 2: so wonderful about both Danny and Joe that they they
16:49
Speaker 2: are doing this from the from the the point of
16:52
Speaker 2: view of of healing and helping and sharing information right
16:58
Speaker 2: and really doing justice. Both of them were very, very
17:01
Speaker 2: invested in supporting the survivors and the victims of these crimes.
17:09
Speaker 2: They you know, Joe went and spoke, brought Lily and
17:12
Speaker 2: spoke to Liz Kendall, Ted Bundy's former girlfriend and her daughter,
17:18
Speaker 2: whom she had wonderful memories of Ted Bundy, you know,
17:21
Speaker 2: and Danny went and spoke with many of all of
17:25
Speaker 2: the characters, Michael Keaton's and Caitlyn Devers. These are all
17:30
Speaker 2: based on very real people, right, And the nun and
17:35
Speaker 2: the doctor who at the end really become the people
17:38
Speaker 2: that help him recover. Those are very real people that
17:43
Speaker 2: he spoke to. And I just like I loved both
17:47
Speaker 2: of these interviews so much and both these projects.
17:52
Speaker 1: I love that too. When you talked to and that's
17:55
Speaker 1: sort of a perfect segue for me when you talk
17:57
Speaker 1: to someone like the director that I spoke to recently,
18:01
Speaker 1: whose name is Jessica Dimmock and she directed Maternal Instinct.
18:06
Speaker 1: So I don't know if you've seen have you seen it?
18:09
Speaker 2: Listen? I have not seen this yet, but I have
18:11
Speaker 2: no less than five text messages from five different people
18:15
Speaker 2: asking me if I have seen this a lazy and
18:18
Speaker 2: telling me that I need to see it.
18:20
Speaker 1: Alisa, Alisa, Alisa, it is it is Wow, It is shocking, terrifying,
18:28
Speaker 1: just awful.
18:29
Speaker 2: This woman pretends she's pregnant and then what happens.
18:31
Speaker 1: Correct, So what happens is this woman gets pulled over
18:34
Speaker 1: by state troopers Texas State troopers pull over this woman
18:37
Speaker 1: who's driving erradically and this is in twenty twenty, so
18:40
Speaker 1: she's crying hysterically. I just had a baby. Please take
18:43
Speaker 1: me to the hospital. The baby is literally in her arms.
18:47
Speaker 1: Please call my husband, tell them to meet me at
18:49
Speaker 1: the hospital. Actually, they don't think we're married at that point,
18:51
Speaker 1: and the story just doesn't add up.
18:56
Speaker 2: But she has an actual baby.
18:57
Speaker 1: She has an actual baby. Anyway, So you find out
19:01
Speaker 1: that this is not her baby, and you find out
19:06
Speaker 1: that she murdered somebody, a woman that she was friendly
19:11
Speaker 1: with worked for She worked for her as a wedding photographer. Oh,
19:15
Speaker 1: to this woman's house, stabs her, opens her up, takes
19:22
Speaker 1: the baby. Okay, this wonderful, sweet woman.
19:28
Speaker 2: Wait, the woman was pregnant.
19:30
Speaker 1: She was pregnant in a desperate attempt to pull this
19:35
Speaker 1: off as her own baby. And one of the things
19:39
Speaker 1: that Jessica and I talked about, so pregnant women are
19:43
Speaker 1: I don't remember the numbers, but shockingly more susceptible to
19:50
Speaker 1: violent crimes.
19:51
Speaker 2: Yes, we covered this with Scott Peterson. When I talked
19:53
Speaker 2: to Ted Rowlands about this.
19:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I didn't. I did not. I'd heard it
19:57
Speaker 1: once before, but the numbers are are shocking and really upsetting.
20:03
Speaker 1: But so the story documents her as she is faking
20:09
Speaker 1: a pregnancy. Okay, you start at the beginning. You sort
20:13
Speaker 1: of get her background, and she grew up what seems
20:19
Speaker 1: and what seems like a fairly normal, you know, Southern background,
20:24
Speaker 1: and they talk to her high school friends. But she's
20:28
Speaker 1: whacked and she always wanted to be the pretty girl
20:32
Speaker 1: who got the guy. That's how they described it. I
20:35
Speaker 1: guess at one point she was like really morbidly obese,
20:38
Speaker 1: and then she had had a gastric sleeve, and it's
20:42
Speaker 1: all of this background information on her, and then you
20:46
Speaker 1: see how she starts faking this pregnancy with her boyfriend
20:50
Speaker 1: who she is obsessed with, and she literally like orders
20:53
Speaker 1: like one of those rubber bellies she has. By the way,
20:57
Speaker 1: mind you she already has kids, okay, and oh she does, yes,
21:01
Speaker 1: but she doesn't have custody of them. But they visit,
21:04
Speaker 1: and you see all this video of the kids visiting,
21:08
Speaker 1: and she gets with this. She always wanted a cowboy.
21:12
Speaker 1: She meets this cowboy and they're they're sort of they
21:16
Speaker 1: become they It starts to get rocky. She doesn't know
21:20
Speaker 1: if he wants what she wants, and so she fakes
21:22
Speaker 1: this pregnancy. But as as the you see that that
21:28
Speaker 1: it starts to come together to people that knew them,
21:31
Speaker 1: because you find out that she had had a hysterectomy
21:35
Speaker 1: and there are people in the world I know this
21:37
Speaker 1: about her, okay, and that are trying to talk to
21:41
Speaker 1: her boyfriend and say, dude, she is not capable, right,
21:45
Speaker 1: but she keeps and then to the down to the
21:48
Speaker 1: fact that he puts his hand on her belly at
21:50
Speaker 1: one point and feels movement, like she was able to
21:54
Speaker 1: even fake that. It's crazy town. It's crazy.
21:58
Speaker 2: That's like, you know, she ate something weird and her
22:01
Speaker 2: melly is making.
22:03
Speaker 1: She had somehow managed to do I don't know. It
22:06
Speaker 1: was so crazy and upsetting. And this guy, this you know,
22:12
Speaker 1: this cowboy. They show it. Also, it's the cinematography of it.
22:16
Speaker 1: He runs like a hog farm and so the director
22:20
Speaker 1: was brilliant. And she you see like these these sort
22:24
Speaker 1: of violent hogs and you see her sort of with them,
22:27
Speaker 1: and it is so icky and chilling. And she is
22:32
Speaker 1: so icky and chilling, and you know, juxtaposed with this sweet,
22:39
Speaker 1: wonderful mother who was one of the only people that
22:45
Speaker 1: really defended her, did not believe the rumors that she
22:49
Speaker 1: wasn't pregnant. So it's blowing up.
23:07
Speaker 2: You know, it's rare that we talk about female murderers
23:13
Speaker 2: on our well show here, but when we do, it's
23:18
Speaker 2: really I just find it like so upsetting.
23:22
Speaker 1: You know what, we'd not only have talked about female
23:25
Speaker 1: ones on my show, we've talked about talked about child ones.
23:28
Speaker 1: So we a number of them were kids fifteen year
23:32
Speaker 1: old taking their friend over county lines and stabbord to death.
23:37
Speaker 2: Well, this is like the Matthew Shepherd. I interviewed Shane Meyer,
23:40
Speaker 2: who played Matthew Shepherd in the movie many years ago
23:44
Speaker 2: with Sam Waterson and Stockard Channing. Yes, he and these kids.
23:51
Speaker 2: This is such a brutal, brutal, brutal murder of this
23:56
Speaker 2: young boy by these boys that brought him out, drove
24:00
Speaker 2: him into the middle of this field and pistol whipped
24:05
Speaker 2: him nearly to left him there. And these kids are
24:09
Speaker 2: seventeen years old.
24:11
Speaker 1: These kids were fifteen. They were two girls. They showed
24:13
Speaker 1: them in middle school, sitting in their classroom all together,
24:16
Speaker 1: pictures of the three besties together, and they take her
24:18
Speaker 1: and they stab her to death. Wait, have you seen
24:20
Speaker 1: the crash?
24:22
Speaker 3: Yes, Oh, well wtf I mean another woman who us
24:29
Speaker 3: their car right into a fricking brick wall right hitting me.
24:34
Speaker 2: I mean this is like so when you know Joe
24:37
Speaker 2: Berlinger talked about this also. He said, you know how
24:39
Speaker 2: some people claim this is exploiting these crimes or you know,
24:45
Speaker 2: perpetuating murderer and murders and all of these things, and
24:49
Speaker 2: it's not. It's like, this is a part of human nature.
24:54
Speaker 2: It exists in people. So this is why we are
24:58
Speaker 2: fascinated by it, and this is why it's important to
25:01
Speaker 2: talk about it.
25:02
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate you putting that out there because it
25:04
Speaker 1: makes me feel much better about the fact that I'm obsessed.
25:07
Speaker 2: Well yeah, you know. I one of the things that
25:10
Speaker 2: has been so rewarding to me and doing this podcast
25:14
Speaker 2: is talking to these people who have either themselves gone
25:18
Speaker 2: through horrific things and have come out the other side
25:23
Speaker 2: to talk about it to help other people or the
25:26
Speaker 2: creators who come from this place of like I said,
25:31
Speaker 2: really wanting to do good work, to express the human
25:35
Speaker 2: condition and to show all of the parts of life.
25:40
Speaker 1: And how to bring about awareness. Right. Yes, yes, did
25:43
Speaker 1: one about fraternity hazing and you know, the death that happens.
25:50
Speaker 1: But it's these people, these heroes, and they they go
25:54
Speaker 1: and they fight for you know, these laws to and awareness.
26:00
Speaker 2: Victims rights and right even though their.
26:02
Speaker 1: Children are gone and they're still fighting for what's called
26:05
Speaker 1: Adam's Law.
26:07
Speaker 2: Which I interviewed Joe Beth Williams who was in the
26:11
Speaker 2: movie about Adam, which was what birthed these laws.
26:15
Speaker 1: Wait, Adam's Law about the hazing.
26:17
Speaker 2: So Adam's Law. Oh, oh, that's a different Adam's Law.
26:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is about I can't keep it, believe me.
26:24
Speaker 1: It kills me. The fact you have so many names, yeah,
26:28
Speaker 1: right right there at the tip of your tongue, because
26:31
Speaker 1: a lot of it is just I don't know, if
26:32
Speaker 1: you block it after a while, Yeah.
26:34
Speaker 2: I mean it's sort of easier to remember the actors
26:37
Speaker 2: and the directors, Yeah, because you are like people. It
26:40
Speaker 2: is because they're in the public eye or there are
26:43
Speaker 2: people that I know or have you know, admired for years,
26:48
Speaker 2: So it's a little bit easier to remember the names.
26:51
Speaker 1: Thank you, my love.
26:52
Speaker 2: The one that I was talking about. In nineteen eighty one,
26:55
Speaker 2: a young boy Adam was brutally murdered and beheaded and
27:00
Speaker 2: this was the parents. One of the father is he's
27:06
Speaker 2: the host of America's most wanted.
27:08
Speaker 1: Anna of course John Walsh, Yes, of course, of course,
27:14
Speaker 1: of course yes. And that was so tragic. I remember,
27:18
Speaker 1: Oh my god. And then he dedicated his life right
27:20
Speaker 1: to help his mind these murders. And I Adam's Law
27:25
Speaker 1: came about from these these parents whose son was hazed
27:29
Speaker 1: to death. And the story is, when I tell you
27:33
Speaker 1: so heartbreaking, it was so Adam's Law is Virginia's anti
27:39
Speaker 1: hazing legislation. So it was enacted in twenty twenty two.
27:44
Speaker 1: And it followed the hazing of this sweet boy. And
27:49
Speaker 1: you see his sweet parents and what he was an
27:51
Speaker 1: only child, what it did to them, and the way
27:54
Speaker 1: in which it happened, and the way in which these
27:59
Speaker 1: these boys, oh my god, they treated him. And he
28:03
Speaker 1: was extremely overweight, and they said the most disgusting things
28:06
Speaker 1: before the night happened, which was like initiation or big
28:09
Speaker 1: little or whatever it was, and we're gonna, you know,
28:12
Speaker 1: we're gonna f up this piggy, like just awful off.
28:15
Speaker 2: I am nauseated by this kind of behavior by the
28:18
Speaker 2: whole culture of that like don't even get me started
28:21
Speaker 2: with the with fraternities in general, and that kind of
28:25
Speaker 2: just I think it breathes nothing but violence and hatred
28:31
Speaker 2: and weirdness. And my husband, if he ever listens to this,
28:34
Speaker 2: we'll be like, that's not true. I'm still very close
28:37
Speaker 2: to my fraternity brothers.
28:39
Speaker 1: Guess what the reason that they had such hard time?
28:42
Speaker 1: Hard times? I should say because there were two laws
28:43
Speaker 1: that were not acted that we talked about. But it's
28:46
Speaker 1: because a lot of politicians are frap boys, right right,
28:51
Speaker 1: and so it's a very strange thing and it has
28:54
Speaker 1: been an uphill battle to try to get laws enacted
28:57
Speaker 1: to protect these kids from hazing.
29:01
Speaker 2: I mean, let's remember, their brains are not fully formed
29:03
Speaker 2: right in college still.
29:05
Speaker 1: Twenty six, I want to say, right the front.
29:07
Speaker 2: So maybe somebody should be putting some guardrails.
29:10
Speaker 1: Right right, And that's what and that's but that is
29:13
Speaker 1: what is. If there is anything that is comforting about
29:17
Speaker 1: watching true crime, you know, both documentaries and films, it's
29:22
Speaker 1: that when you see people making a difference and it's
29:26
Speaker 1: not just their putting it out for you, just the
29:29
Speaker 1: thrill of it. But no, when I said to the parents,
29:34
Speaker 1: you know, I want my kids to watch this although
29:37
Speaker 1: they are now both out of college, but it should
29:39
Speaker 1: be required for kids going into college to watch.
29:42
Speaker 2: It required viewing, right, yeah, right, yep, yep, yeah.
29:46
Speaker 1: Well you guys put that up again because I love that.
29:48
Speaker 1: I forgot about that that the FBI said that what
29:52
Speaker 1: is it?
29:52
Speaker 2: Frats are tighter lipped than the bloods and the crips.
29:56
Speaker 1: Okay, then the dangerous card gangs. Okay, my god, right right,
30:00
Speaker 1: but listen, it's so informative and important.
30:04
Speaker 2: It really is. Of all of the I mean, gosh,
30:07
Speaker 2: I get talk about all of them. I interviewed Drel
30:09
Speaker 2: Jerome from When they see Us Ava de Verney's movie
30:12
Speaker 2: about the Exonerated five that were called the Central Park
30:16
Speaker 2: Five at the time. Of course, that that series I
30:20
Speaker 2: feel like should be required viewing. It is so disturbing
30:24
Speaker 2: and upsetting and really shows the flaws in the police
30:30
Speaker 2: at the time and a lot of the investigative services,
30:33
Speaker 2: and these things are they are important.
30:36
Speaker 1: To a lot of times. It's about the system having failed, right,
30:42
Speaker 1: but in a way, so if you watch Maternal Instinct,
30:48
Speaker 1: the doctors, right, they knew sort of what was going on,
30:53
Speaker 1: but there are all these hippo laws, so they could
30:55
Speaker 1: talk about how this person can't be pregnant, she had
30:59
Speaker 1: a hysterect me, but there's all these laws in place
31:03
Speaker 1: to protect her, and what about the protection of the victim.
31:06
Speaker 1: And so it's takes a look, a necessary look, and
31:11
Speaker 1: an important look at not only you know, people's character
31:18
Speaker 1: and how evil they can be, but also at our
31:22
Speaker 1: systems and sometimes what's wrong with them.
31:25
Speaker 2: And sometimes these things that are put in place to
31:27
Speaker 2: protect people wind up being the things that other criminals
31:31
Speaker 2: can hide behind.
31:32
Speaker 1: Correct, correct, And that's true also.
31:35
Speaker 2: With the Ted Bundy I mean, good god, that that
31:38
Speaker 2: series extremely wicked. Sorry, that movie extremely wicked. You have
31:43
Speaker 2: to watch it. It's like some of the things that
31:46
Speaker 2: were in there. I asked Joe. I thought, oh, this
31:49
Speaker 2: is like a little inflamed and invented for dramatic purposes.
31:54
Speaker 2: And then I watched the documentary after and I went,
31:58
Speaker 2: this is verbatim what was happening in the court room.
32:02
Speaker 2: I mean, it's crazy.
32:03
Speaker 1: Wait, at least that we should do. We should do
32:06
Speaker 1: a pod. You watch the film, I'll watch the documentary
32:10
Speaker 1: and then yes, yes, yes, thanks.
32:13
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's a great idea because I want
32:16
Speaker 2: the two of us to be able to do this.
32:18
Speaker 1: More I agree, Bunny, it's my favorite. I love it.
32:22
Speaker 2: Oh, I love you.
32:23
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that would be really really
32:25
Speaker 1: interesting sort of sort of comparing, especially when they are
32:27
Speaker 1: so similar, right, yeah, and which is harder to watch
32:32
Speaker 1: the documentary.
32:33
Speaker 2: I know, well, you know, it's interesting even who said
32:38
Speaker 2: this to me, Elizabeth Smart. So I did not interview
32:41
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Smart, but I interviewed Skeet Ulrick about the movie
32:45
Speaker 2: that he did on her life. He played her perpetrator
32:49
Speaker 2: and her captor and abuse her, and he met her
32:52
Speaker 2: she was on set and everything, and you know, she said,
32:56
Speaker 2: the reason that I'm I'm doing this movie and that
32:59
Speaker 2: I am allowing these things to happen is because it
33:02
Speaker 2: is oftentimes easier for people to digest real things through story,
33:08
Speaker 2: and then because they get an emotional experience from watching it,
33:13
Speaker 2: and then they can understand like the depth of what
33:17
Speaker 2: really happened. So I thought that was so interesting that
33:20
Speaker 2: someone who has getten through unspeakable horrors is saying, no, no,
33:27
Speaker 2: this is why we do this. You know that it's
33:29
Speaker 2: equally I.
33:31
Speaker 1: Can absolutely see that, and I see how directors of
33:35
Speaker 1: the documentaries they also again like with the cinematography that
33:38
Speaker 1: I was describing you. There have been a few a
33:41
Speaker 1: few docs that I've watched where, you know, the cinematography
33:45
Speaker 1: was so haunting, Right, it's not about the story itself,
33:48
Speaker 1: but for whatever reason, they catch a dead crow, you know,
33:52
Speaker 1: and it's real.
33:53
Speaker 2: I mean, it's still a very creative.
33:56
Speaker 1: Media varies, right, exactly, and it's also creative. And I
33:59
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know which one is which one
34:02
Speaker 1: is harder to watch, but let's find out.
34:04
Speaker 2: Yep. I love talking to you to thank you, Okay
34:08
Speaker 1: I love talk soon.