Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.324: Understanding The Brilliance of Beauty Ft. Sir John

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E.324: Understanding The Brilliance of Beauty Ft. Sir John · Skin Anarchy

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: Only you can stand in your way.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: Turn it across the expand to the open world of anywhere.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yellow four.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: No, we need to make sure.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Anarchy.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is a very, very special episode.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I am so honored, so humbled to be introducing you guys to our guest of honor today.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: He is beyond an icon and legendary.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, truly, you know, a master of his craft.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Sir John.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure a lot of you know about him.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: He is a creative genius.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the show, Sir John.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so, so honored to host you.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Dr.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Akha.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having us.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's, you know, it this is kind of crazy to me because I never thought I'd be hosting someone like you that I, you know, you're really truly an inspiration.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I I want to get started um by really learning about you and how you got into just makeup artistry and then just this whole creative area, you know, of that we call the beauty industry.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I got into this by by accident.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: I've actually tried to leave makeup alone a couple of times and uh it just found me.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: It kept coming back to me.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I used to work for Mac.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: I went to school for art when I was younger.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then um 18 or 18 years old in Atlanta.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: I found myself um, I left Buffalo, New York, two days after I graduated high school.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I went to Atlanta for a few months.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then I started to do makeup there, but on accident, a friend of mine was a model and the makeup artist canceled on the shoot.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so the photographer asked me, he's no longer with us, uh Desmond.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: He asked me, uh, hey, are you gonna be can you do this next weekend?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or can you paint her face?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, because he knew it was a painter.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, uh, I didn't know eyeshadows from mascara for anything.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, I basically found myself at 18, uh, you know, starting to do makeup.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even know it was a job.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: My first job, that first, you know, job, he gave me 250 bucks.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, okay, I can make some money doing this.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: And uh he so I started working at Mac.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I remember Mac was my first full-time job, you know.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had to wait.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: They actually couldn't hire me until I was my 19th birthday, and then so um they transferred me five months later to New York City because I had the highest sales in Southeast.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but so I found myself in New York, in Manhattan, didn't know anyone.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I was I stayed, I stayed, actually, I knew someone, I stayed on their couch for like a few months.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I started with makeup.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: I just I love the expression of it all.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: I loved how many people I can meet.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: I love people.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, a lot of there's so many makeup artists who are, you know, out there or hairstylists, but we're really in the business of people, you know, and making people feel something.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: So as the core for me, it's not just about how people look.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was really, you know, and like uh engaged or wrapped around how I made them feel, how how connected they were to themselves at that point.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I got fired at 23 for being late.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh shout out to Matt Catholics, I love you guys.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then you know, think whoever hire fires you first.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you learn so many lessons and shortcuts.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: But um, when I started to do the windows at Burdoff Gritman and Barney's, um, that happened on accident.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: I just went up to someone and asked, Can I can I do this with you guys, this install for holiday at Bendel's, Henry Bendell's in New York?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: And uh he's like, Yeah, come.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna then you have to spend the night in the store with everyone else, and and we just make these beautiful things.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and at the same time, I was doing makeup in a strip club in Queens called Riviera.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Shout out to the girls.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: But on my lunch break one day, I remember seeing Yadeen Carranzo, who's a makeup artist.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: He became, we worked together at Mac, but he became Pat McGrath's lead assistant.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: So he's like, Hey man, you know, I'm working, I'm going out all around the world right now and doing some cool things.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is pre-Instagram.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: We were only rocking with Twitter at the time.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Hey, can you come to the tents?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Come to Bryant Park um and uh do some shows with us, Fashion Week.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm like, uh sure, cool.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I went, I did a couple shows.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and Pat asked me, was it gonna be in Europe two weeks later?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I didn't have any plan on it, but I told her, yeah.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I had to go rush and get a passport really quickly and get you know, get there.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so my first show was Doe Changabbana.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: She took me to Prada and then sent me to Naomi Campbell's hotel room um at the Bulgari, I'll never forget.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and then I that started me uh as that started my career as an assistant, a professional assistant.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I was an assistant for like seven years, eight years.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: I started working with Charlotte Tilbury really heavy.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: So Charlotte was like my I love Charlotte still to this day.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: She she checks in on me um you know whenever she's in a Los Angeles.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: But she um she introduced me to Beyonce at Tom Ford's first women's wear show in 2010.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I remember a few months later I got a call to go on tour with her, and then I got a contract from L'Oreal Paris.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is almost like you know, this is years ago now.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I've had a television show called American Beauty Star in Lifetime.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, season one was Adriana Lima as the host, and season two is uh Ashley Graham, the beautiful Ashley Graham.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, and then I kept rocking and rolling, you know.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: I had a partnership with Disney.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: I did Disney's The Lion King.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my favorite client I've ever worked with is Barbie.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that was one it was a childhood like pinch me moment to design a collection of Barbie, um beautiful Barbie glam, you know.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then you know, yeah, that that's just a little bit of a nutshell.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how to unpack it in a different way, but that was amazing.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I love I love the way you, you know, you walked us through that.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, you know, you've for me, like, you know, interviewing you is such a huge hallmark for me because, you know, we were chatting before, for everyone listening, we're chatting before the interview started.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I was telling Sir John how, you know, as a woman of color, it has been very interesting for me just as a consumer to see how the speedy industry has evolved and the frustration also of seeing a lot of makeup artistry going in the direction of, well, just cover it up, just cover it up, you know, but then there's not products available for us.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then I look at your work, Sir John, and I'm just like, you know, that there's that inspiration again, there's that feeling again of what I had when I was a teenage girl, looking at magazines, you know, like Cosmopolitan, Glamour.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, I just, you know, I want to talk to you about that and this this evolution of beauty that's occurred through your career and what you've noticed because I'm very, you know, I'm very interested in in your perspective as a makeup artist, you know, to see everything that's occurred and how you see beauty now, you know, compared to back then before you even started off.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really damn that's a really great question.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't think I've ever asked that.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but so what so that's the two parts, a few parts there.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: What exactly um would be the entry point?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: I want to make sure I really know this.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean, I just like you know, when you before you even knew you wanted to do artistry, you would see like what were the things you would notice about like something, like for example, someone's makeup look that would catch your eye, you know, as compared to like now when you look at it with this professional outlook, you know?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So how has that changed for you?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know what?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: The first thing I think about is um my mom was my entry point, you know.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: I I remember my mom when I was growing up, I mean, she still is really beautiful, but she was like, I thought I had the most beautiful person in the world was my mom.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so she was a single mom, really, you know, and she raised us.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: It was me and my brother at the time, two boys, and we lived in uh, you know, uh tough neighborhoods.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but she always took so much pride in her appearance, you know, and in ours and taught us how to take care of ourselves and look after ourselves.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it comes from my grandmother too.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: My grandmother was a really glamorous person in terms of lifestyle and the way she it was a it was a lifestyle for her.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, but for me, it was um I remember watching Elsa Clinch back in the day on Saturdays, CNN style with my grandmother, uh, you know, fashion, fashion stuff.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: But my mom used to always wear navy eyeliner, mascara, you know, a pink lip, late 80s, early 90s.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, we always she cut, she used to, she was a bar, she cut our hair, you know, she was a barber.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so I used to have this the Gumby for a second, the step box back with kid and like.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I my first, you know, the things I used to look at, I was obsessed, obsessed with the supermodel era of of fashion, you know.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I grew up uh, you know, and became I was in high school in the late 90s, uh, you know, like around when Lauren Hill dropped, Biggie Smalls was out, you know, it was on the scene.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um and Ashley was so small.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, there was no, there was no peer inside of it.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it was so exclusive.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: And to see people like, you know, a black woman backstage opening and closing every show like Payne on the Campbell, you know, or uh, and just seemed like the ultimate glamour, and but uh but it was so polarizing and it's separate.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: It was such a separate, it was us, you know, the glamousons, and then it were regular morals.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I love the fact that nowadays beauty is not that.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's a feeling, it's connected, it's it's close to it's close up on each other and it is accepting, you know.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's something that I've seen, I've literally seen the the uh the evolution of how inclusive the landscape has become.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's the biggest thing is that it's become so inclusive because not because we're not because the beauty industry or the fashion industry made it inclusive, uh, because we would still be waiting.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's like this this uh like social media.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Social media is so that's the democracy.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's the democraticize, the way we look at everything, everyone has an opinion and a voice and they use it.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that is what brought equity here, and that's what made it given has given us a modern movement in terms of where we are, um, and seeing ourselves.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's why representation is so important.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Visual representation and seeing yourself in a campaign, seeing yourself in advertising, um, or even in the C-suites, and you know, in marketing rooms and boardrooms, uh, it's really important to visualize as young adults of people.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, when you're forming this sense of, hey, I want to do this too.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's why I love talking and doing master classes.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: I just did masterclass.com and giving back like knowledge is to be shared, you know, and not to go on and on, but uh we'll say is you know, as a makeup artist, we if you look at the medical community, so where you know, we need to share like they do.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And where would modern medicine be if they never share their findings?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: If someone said this penicillin is gonna work, this fungus is gonna work for this, you know, we would be in the dark ages.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that when we look at beauty or when we look at ways to heal ourselves, wellness, um, it's to be shared.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I hope no, I love that.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love your answer.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, that really comes back to that initial point you made about it being a business of people, because you're so right when you said that.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And in every aspect, I mean, I look at it, you know, just everything you said here about even psychological components of beauty.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've said I've told this story like, you know, on my podcast before.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: But when I first came to America, the first people who introduced me to beauty were um young, you know, black girls that I met in my magnet school and they introduced me to lip gloss.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I had no idea what it was, but I remember feeling gorgeous and I feel I loved myself for that moment.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like, you know, that moment for me has lived on for my whole life.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so those are the things I think that, you know, sometimes when I look at this landscape and I look at the beauty industry, um, those moments are what I still as a consumer try to catch, you know, and hold on to.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why I'd asked you that question because when I look at your artistry and I look at the work you you do, it brings me back to that Lauren Hill era.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it brings me back to that feeling of, and by the way, I blasted Lauren Hill every day after high school for like years.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm here for it.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: My parents were very confused about, you know, who I thought I was and you know, if I knew, and you know, so it was it was an interesting time back then.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I totally totally resonate with everything you said.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just, you know, I think for me, when I look at the Instagram world now and I look at the social media world, as amazing as it is, and everything you said is so true about sharing and and really getting the word out there, I also see a lot of hype around things that I think are you know adding to almost a problem.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the that's where I get very interested about perspectives such as yours because you know, when you look at beauty, what are some of the things that you think you know, women or men, both really anybody should be focusing on when it comes to beauty because it's such a huge, um, you know, it's a big word, you know, and everyone wants to feel beautiful, right?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I would love to you're great.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: You are great.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to let you know that I don't I just want to let you know that this conversation you're having has so many legs.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is such a beautiful conversation to have.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and what the you know, you want to know what is it, what does it mean now to be beautiful?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, just like any words of wisdom you have about it, you know, because people never look past the makeup and the you know the the frills, right?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: And really like look at it.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: What does it really mean?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Beauty is for me, it's uh I don't want to say for me, I I hope to this is what I hope to leave behind, you know, or even if this is a message, if I happen to be a win in the jungle of this space that we're in, um it's the it's a feeling.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I always go back to that statement, you know, it's something that we feel.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, beauty is it's not often seen.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's seen sometimes, you know, uh, but it's often felt.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: And when I say felt, how did you leave a room?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: How do you how do you leave people?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what's what's the what's the thought when they close their eyes?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: What do they think of when they think of you?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not always something they see, it's something that's something that you feel.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how do you people will never forget how you make them feel?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so as a beauty professional, I know that's why I got really serious about you know this intersection of mental health and wellness and and understanding how to do a temperature check, how to check in with ourselves.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I check in with my clients when I go in.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just about what I want to go and put on people, no, like how do you feel?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how are you doing?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and really genuinely care and want to know.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing is, you know, beauty is emotional too.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: As we look at fashion, fashion is the reason why beauty has so many layers and it digs so deep is because of the fact that when you look at a handbag we love, you know, or something, it doesn't necessarily it's it's it's it's there's distance there.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't cover a childhood scar like your concealer, it doesn't make you feel like you know you can go into a room and to a and uh and and be a better speaker, like a red lip, you know, or whatever that looks like.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or you know, if you find the right foundation, it may change your life and make you feel better about your skin if you're in skin insecure.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I do know that beauty is emotional because I I get criers, you know, and not just you know, when I put makeup on people, you know, I remember being in South Africa doing a master classes, uh Paris.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: I had a translator, I was doing one, and you know, the guy stood up and you know, he's just he was really emotional, and because it does provoke us to feel something.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that I'm one of the only people in the space, and it shout out to all my contemporaries.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: But what I've been tasked with is to make sure that people feel good and people don't feel um isolated or or or or distanced from themselves.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: When we look at the glossy covers, when we look at all the beautiful, you know, retouch images and all the things that we see that are you know how we manipulate ourselves to digitally to give back to the world, um it it it it sometimes often is damaging.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it doesn't always leave us with a sense of self, a sense of knowing, a sense of uh uh being healthy mentally, you know.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: So um that is something that, not to get too deep, uh, is the task of where we need to go.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And but um in terms of where we've been, you know, I'm really proud of being one of the last of the Mohicans in a sense, you know, because I was I I remember Brian Park when the all the when they used to spark the tents during Fashion Week.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: I used to assist Sam Fine, you know, who's one of the greatest makeup artists uh to work, you know, to revolutionize the way we see black skit or black beauty.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and and then also you know, going from that to the early 2000s and seeing, you know, how music changed the culture of fashion and that intersection.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And now it's every man's game and it's changed so much.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I I feel blessed to be a mortgage millennial, they say.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: I feel ultimately really blessed.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And any all of my peers, all of my contemporaries, anyone who grew up as 80s babies, early 90s, um, we have so much perspective that we, you know, I wish that the newer generation, Gen Zers, could see.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: But what I love about Gen Z and what I love about where we're going is that Gen Zers or you know, the babies or the I don't want to call them babies, but the new the leaders of the new school, as I would say, they shop by values.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: Values are important to them when they look at brands and who they want to wear or what they want to do, what how does this align?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: How does this brand align with you know the values?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what causes are they you know uh um advocating for?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do they marginalize?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Is anyone on their board marginalizing any community?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I am so ultimately because our generation wasn't the one to do it.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: No, we weren't, yeah.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Thankful for these guys to to propel us and um to compel us to think and move and act.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's really important.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you know, Sir John, honestly, what's interesting to me about everything you said is absolutely interesting, but I I really like how you brought up this comparison between millennials because I'm not gonna lie to you, I've had so many conversations where I'm like, I swear millennials were an experiment.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like we were a giant experiment because we had the first of so many, right?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: We had the first of like I had a beeper in high school, yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I had a we had boom boxes.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: We, you know, we we transitioned from CDs to DVDs to freaking microchips.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't even know.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like micro.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I I look at millennials and I and I love that you brought up this, you know, this topic about this because I feel like we're so underrated also as a generation.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm I mean, I'm gonna be very honest here for everyone listening.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, let's be, you know, we have some of the best things that have come out of our generation, you know, including makeup artistry.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look who's my guest today.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's really you guys, it's like people don't understand that.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's one of the hallmarks of the millennial generation.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really what fuels Gen Z because I don't know if you've been noticing, Sir John, but they are going back to our music, they're coming back to our style, you know.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: I was literally, you took, oh my god, you took that out of my head.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry about the music.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: The music, I was literally just thinking about the music, and we were when and nothing if also what I'm a little bit sad of, I wish there was more, I wish the music was better.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: When I say better, I'm not trying to sound like I don't listen to everything that's out, but everything, there's no newness in the sense where when we were young growing up, I remember my mother, you know, I remember playing Shaka Khan, you know, I remember playing you know, playing the greats and or uh the Beatles or you know, the Supremes, Dinah Ross, Love Hangover, all of that influenced the fashion, you know, in the 90s scene when Lauren Hill dropped, as we talked about Lauren Hill, and the Fuji's and the lip color and the brown 90s lip, all of that influenced was fashion's reaction.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Fashion's reaction is what influenced our sense of style, you know, and so um, and I see that being resurfaced, or there's a renaissance, you know, uh, so to speak, going back in that direction.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I'm very happy to have live through it.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, not saying I would do it all again.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like I see people tweezing their brows trying to super, super thing.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: No, please don't.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Never going back to the pencil brow.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get it back.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I totally hear you though, you know, and that's really a question I do have for you is this idea of, you know, where do you get your inspiration from?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're right, you know, growing up, we had so many things back to back that were like always in our face, you know, something new coming out, whether it's music, whether it's art, even the art scene.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I look back and I'm like, oh my gosh, like I got introduced to so many cool, like, you know, painters and just, you know, just sketch artists and stuff, and just even like cartoons, you know, every I feel like every discipline, right, across the board.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So now when you're working on, you know, um a cover or something that's you know, a new project for you, where do you get your inspiration these days?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um well the thing is, you know, I I I came in uh and always had this notion of so right around when I started to separate myself as an assistant, I was no longer an assistant, and I started working on my own.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: I remember the atmosphere was so celebrity obsessed, so celebrity obsessed.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Where it, and mind you, I have I have some cool clients, but it was very much like whatever beauty trend you were doing, whatever makeup thing you were talking about.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: And anytime you were talking to an editor, what celebrity can we assign to this?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Who do you who what celebrity?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, guys, the the readers are so much more involved than than needing to assign a celebrity for them to see themselves in a trend or see themselves in this lip color or this sense of style.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I'm the anti, I'm kind of like the anti-celebrity, anti-trend in a sense, meaning that I'm really about the people.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I say that, I I think that we should talk directly to consumers, like, hey guys, how do you want to feel?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: What do you want to look like?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Are you really happy, rocking or shaking what your mama gave you?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and it has nothing to do with anyone else's look or because right before the pandemic, pre pandemic, we were headed over a cliff.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: We were definitely headed over a cliff with you know, five different ways to contour your face, this cookie cutter idea of what was perfect and beautiful, and sculpting that came looking like bruises, and and and everyone was starting to lose a sense of self.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: The rising fillers and both are mind you, I'm not knocking any of that.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: Get what you need to get if you need if it's I love it all.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: But don't lose yourself, don't lose yourself in it.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: And the pandemic was an ultimate equalizer in a sense that allowed us to hey, we're on Zooms, you know, everyone's working virtually.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: I love the skin I'm in.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I love not having foundation.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Let's not wear concealer today.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: If I want to put a lipstick on, let's just do that.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so that skinification and that sense of like owning your space without feeling like you have to manipulate it is what's really inspired me post-pandemic.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the ease of just there's a there's a reason, there's this, I call it dopamine glam.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I kind of uh dubbed this uh coin this phrase with uh psych.com.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um and dopamine glam is you'll see all of these whimsical approaches to liner and this and that, and you know, soft acid yellow washes on the lids, and and you know, or even people who are really mature wearing things that they thought were not in their uh uh realm any longer.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: And because honestly, it's all about I want to do these things so I feel something, you know.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: Fashion's reaction.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: That was fashion's reaction.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: I want to put on this lipstick because it makes me feel good.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted this do this euphoria-inspired glitter because it makes me feel sexy, it makes me feel awake and I can take take on the day.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: We're going through a lot, we're seeing a lot.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I'm really inspired to uh to sit to you know, to answer your question.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm inspired by the people.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm inspired by the people.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I really, and you know what?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna lie to you.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think we are definitely twins when it comes to mindset because the other day, Aikiji and I was tweeting this, and I was we were we had new art for some character, and I was like, you know what?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just terminate all the toxic trends and you know, let's tune in to trail blazing conversations at this point because you know, the trends are just, I feel like honestly, I feel like trends have gotten a bad reputation because of the trends.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's a it's like an onion that keeps peeling itself, kind of thing, you know?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I like when trends were cool.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when trends were cool, you know, growing up, yeah, we had some cool trends, you know, and that was that was okay.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: But now I feel like every hour there's a new trend.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I go onto TikTok and I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a headache just like scrolling through TikTok.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like, dude, like how many different blushes are gonna be trendy this month, you know?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Hell yeah.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm I'm here for I'm I'm totally feeling you in that.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And also, we have less attention spirit, our attention span is shorter.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think a trend was able to last longer at one point when we weren't so saturated.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right now, our you know, we're being programmed to go from 45 seconds, 30 seconds to, you know, the bounce rate on our attention span is crazy high.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so there, so there's not really a place for anything to stick except yes yourself, except knowing what's working for me, not what's working for the lot, you know, or or things like that.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: What's what's working for self?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that goes back to possibly why did you, why did you, why did you got in this business?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I really I I agree with you.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I think this is really where, yeah, it is.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's that, you know, for me as a consumer, it it's always been about this idea of where can I find the best product that's gonna work for me as a woman of color.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, I feel like for me, that's led to me diving into social media more.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's led to me, you know, like looking at um micro influencers more, that kind of thing.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's always at the heart of the questions that I, at least from what I've understood from just the interactions I've had with, especially women that can relate to this idea of growing up without the options, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't have 80 options of skin shades.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: I remember mixing four Maybelline uh, you know, foundations just to get my match.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm North Indian and I didn't think it was that hard to match, you know, just normal brown skin.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: But hey, that's what we grew up with, you know.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember, Sujan, you will not believe I remember walking into a Sephora and I remember going up to the girl and I was like, find me the darkest eyeliner in black that you have.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, Pat McGrath, period.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what she said at the time.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, I trust that.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I did, and I to this day have not stopped using Pat's eyeliner because that's the generation, right?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's the generation we grew up in.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you find something that works and you stick to it.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it all comes back to what you said about this idea of, you know, you what makes you feel good?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that really links me to this this movement that we're seeing now with this whole body positivity thing.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think I'm all about it.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think everyone, you know, we should all be body positive.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really what you said here, which is what makes you feel good?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: What really drives you as a human being individually, you know, don't worry about celebrities.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Worry about what makes you feel look good, feel good.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I want you to give us some, you know, some feedback for all of the younger audience, I guess, listening is that, you know, where are some places that they can start when it comes to experimenting with something like makeup, you know, like what do you suggest?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, cool.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I suggest like non-committal ways to embrace color with open arms are small changes.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: Don't go for a big overhaul at first, you know.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: I always tell the younger makeup artists this, you know, whenever you want to garner trust from your clients, it could be a corporate client, it could be a celebrity, it could be you know, your friend who's gonna do a wedding, give them a great complexion.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, guys, if someone can give you a great complexion, whether they be a makeup artist or you know, or even yourself, if this is a brand and you just want to entry point into what they have, uh, complexion is always a great starter.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Someone, if you can give someone a beautiful complexion and nothing else, they'll follow you to the ends of the world and then give them a smoky eye or try a little bit more.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, I would say complexion is key, and then knowing your skin, knowing what you need, knowing the needs of your face, and not being afraid to be strategic with your mixing.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I say when I multi-masking, you think about when you do a mask here for something, uh, you might be drier in the cheeks, do the same thing with your foundation.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: You might want something more matte in the T-zone because it's humid in New York or in you know in the US right now, and something a bit more glowy all over.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: But as long as you are bridging the two in a really nice way, no one's gonna know the two different foundations.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: So um that, but I think liners, I love eyeliner.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think liner is the eyes are always gonna have it.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: They're uh a really nice way to evoke a mood or feeling, and um and and get an emotional response from your viewer.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And when I say an emotional response, I remember just doing like this the uh doing the on the run tour, the first one, and we've done this beautiful cat eye every night.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, I just remember perfecting it because I I know when she's singing, she's gonna give this, you're gonna feel the emotion in the song even more if I do what I have to do even better.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: So um minor is key, and it's it's the oldest makeup trend or routine, you know, in Mesopotamia, like uh, you know, ancient Greece, you know, Egypt, women were you know elongating the silhouette of their eyes, making them appear be, I'm sorry, appear appear a bit more alluring or um elongated.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so that is something that will never go away.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's primal.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and but now just have more fun with colors.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then after that, I would say have fun with lips, have fun with different textures and lips, go for matte to a little bit of sheer gloss, go for an opaque gloss, like I did for the boat cover, you know, that we just saw is like vinyl red.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um have fun with color on the lips, and that's something you can take off, you can put on, but it'll change your emotional state, it moves the vibration um or in the the needle emotionally inside.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and I love that.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I love those tips.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: There, you're so right about the eyeliner.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm Indian and all that.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was born in India.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, my mom always told me, she's like, you know, eyeliner, always 100%.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's cultural, exactly.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like you're so right.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, the eyes really are the windows to the soul.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think, you know, even going back to the question I'd asked you earlier about like what cap what's captivating about beauty.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, for me, even as a consumer, it was eyes, like, you know, if you could get your eyes to look a certain way, or you know, you somebody caught your eye, you know, with their eyes.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was always interesting to see how much you can do with that area of the face.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I I love that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love all the tips.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope everyone listening, you you kind of caught that because it is really about the fundamentals, you know, it it really comes down to the fundamentals.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I want to actually ask you, Sir John, because now I feel like we've reached this almost polarized point in makeup where I feel like now, I mean, I think Rihanna did a great thing when she came out with 50 shades, you know, and that was great.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: I loved it.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I feel like it also fed into this idea of the more products you have, the better.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I want you to kind of speak on that about, you know, how much do we need, you know, really?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, when when should we be like drawn in versus just being like, well, I already have this?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: How do you reduce redundancies in like your makeup or whatever it is that you're using every day?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what are some tips that you have or that you use?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, you know, the thing is, I think we should.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a makeup artist who always has to travel about a lot of stuff, right?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a bad example, but I will say think about how can keep convertible products.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: So the convertible nature of products.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: Can I use this, you know, this cough, this uh coffee colored eyeliner?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, can I use it for more than one thing?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do I love this brow pencil I have as long as it's not black?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe I'm gonna use that in the corners to shape my lips.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe I'm gonna use a little bit of this lip, this matte lip on my cheeks as a cream blush.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I I love every big makeup artist, we always look at color and products as just everything to everywhere.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no, we don't look at anything conventional and spaces.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: Also, start to look at when you go to museums, look at how you know there was color applied to cheeks that you know give given has given a 400-year-old painting emotion or something like that, instead of only other beauty professionals.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: It gives you an unorthodox of what beauty can be.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think that as long as you have the essentials, what do you love most about your face?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: What do you love about you?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: What's working already?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, and we all have something that's working.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, whatever's working, I'm gonna adorn that.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna wrap my wrap some of my energy or my time around that.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that might be your eyes.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you're becoming more mature, and your eyes used to be the thing, and maybe they're, you know, we we we age gracefully.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the conversation of your eyes, now it's a lip statement or a blush.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think whatever's working, give that some attention, give that some love.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's okay to have one sense of punctuation and allow everything else to be easy.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I love what you said about the paintings.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, you know, it's spoken like a true artist.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's amazing, and it's phenomenal to hear that.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually want to ask you, I feel like every artist has a signature, you know.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like a lot of makeup artists these days also kind of um, you know, talk about well, this is something I only I do, or this is something I coined.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of your signatures that you've kind of collected along the way, you know, in your journey?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just texting my next person.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be there in two minutes.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, okay, two minutes, two minutes.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, sorry.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, one second, one second.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna have to add it this part up on the back.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, no problem.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: So uh my signatures.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: What's my signature?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think that my signature would be um, I like glamour, you know, I love I love show grows.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: I love, but I also love skin that looks like skin.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I love beautiful, I love maximizing features, you know, almost to the point of like uh, you know, animated, but not anime, but like, you know, I love Bambi as a reference, you know.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I like making the features more alluring.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: I love alluring makeup, but not the thing is are someone asked me this, uh Rosie Huntington.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, we were doing an interview together, and she's like, hey, how do you want people to feel?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, you know, I don't necessarily want people to feel sexy or beautiful is okay, but it's soft, you know.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I want people to feel powerful.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so I think one thing I love about makeup, and a lot of people would argue that makeup doesn't necessarily shouldn't make you feel powerful because you know, men, we don't need it.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's an argument for that.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I love the the confidence.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: I love the confidence boost.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, um that's what I'm into.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just into whatever allows your back to sit up a bit straighter, you know, when you hit the runway, when you go into a massive stage, Stade France, or you know, uh women's stadium to do a Super Bowl or a thing.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: I just love the impact that it gives you your internally.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it can sometimes be the most minimal version of a sliver of liner or anything more than you would possibly do.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I just love the confidence.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: I love to look at someone and see when it when it when it turns when it turns on.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's an job, it's not something that you should we do for everyone else, we do it for ourselves.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is so awesome, and that's thank you so much.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I know that you're very busy, so I'm gonna let you go.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: But this has been amazing, and you are truly inspirational.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: You are amazing.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to do this with you again.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Can we do a part two?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, yes, please.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, part two in August.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm down for part two, three, four, five, six.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: You let me know.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay, cool.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, and everyone tuning in.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, definitely stay tuned for more parts, then I guess this is gonna be awesome.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, thank you, Sir John.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Follow me on Instagram, guys, and TikTok, Sir John.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: I will tag everything in the concept art for this episode.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, sir.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: All right, bye-bye.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: We are available on so many different platforms.
• 35:29
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• 35:32
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