Latest / Thinking Class / #036 - Tobi Emonts-Holley - Family Comes First: 'I'm A Dad of Six And A CEO And I Love My Life'

Transcript

#036 - Tobi Emonts-Holley - Family Comes First: 'I'm A Dad of Six And A CEO And I Love My Life' · Thinking Class

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hello, classmates, and welcome to Thinking Class.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm John Gillam, and today I'm speaking with Toby Amons Holly.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: Toby is a husband, a dad of six, and a CEO of TiffReth, a non-profit organization that provides support and opportunities to people with learning disabilities.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: In this episode, Toby tells us what being a father has taught him about his relationship to time and, well, death, how parenting taught him the wisdom of the ages without having to read philosophy or theology from the last few thousand years, the importance of slowing down at work and at home, how becoming a father taught him what he should pay attention to and what he shouldn't, how his relationship to technology changed after the birth of his first child, the impact of screens and technology on children, and how he and his wife approached the use of technology in the household, why exposing children to the elements is important for character formation and makes them happier, the challenges and rewards of parenting, and why building meaningful relationships is important to get on in life, and much, much more.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: Toby is a true inspiration.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: He's not a dad who is solely about productivity and high performance outside of being a dad, but places being a good dad and husband above all else and just so happens to be a high performer and highly productive.
1:02
SPEAKER_01: To see someone gather such a large following online in an age where demographic decline is so widespread perhaps suggests more people would like children than we think.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: And Toby doesn't sugarcoat parenting, but nor does he make it look like it gets in the way of life.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Instead, he speaks about how it enriches his life and how he thrives off his duties and obligations.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: We need more people like Toby.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: Before we dive in, you'd be really helping me out if you click subscribe on whatever platform you are listening to or watching the show on.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: The more subscribers we have, the more guests we can attract, and the faster Thinking Class grows.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the show, classmates.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Toby Monts Holly, welcome to Thinking Class.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for joining me.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for the invite.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's always a pleasure when people accept when I get in touch with them out of the blue, and I haven't previously met them or we we didn't know of each other.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: But Toby, I became aware of you on X.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: An algorithm had thrown us together, it seems.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: And uh I don't know if it had heard me talking about my future plans for a family, and it thought, let's get a nice positive voice of fatherhood in front of you.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: But that's what you're known for.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Toby, you're you're a dad of six.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: And in an in an age where so few children are born, at least uh to those of us of white European stock, um, you have close to 100,000 followers, Twitter followers, I think, or ex-followers.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: And on that, you've built that following from writing about how to be a dad and how to be successful professionally, but how to support your wife and be present in a relationship and be present as a dad.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: And it's positive messages.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: You write truths as well, you put it all out there, it's not all sugarcoated, it's philosophical, it's practical.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: And I dare say it probably makes people actually want to have children after they've read it, given that they are so steeped in all of these societal hang-ups about children and self-development and self-advancement um over recent decades, over, for example, the idea of family values.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: So I think there's lots that we're going to be able to get in today on all of those levels.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Uh what would you say being a father teaches you about your relationship to time and well, death, since we've already opened philosophically?
3:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, deep, deep, straight away.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Straight away, don't even warm things up, just into it.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's just go.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: So, time, yeah.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, our our kids age from so the youngest is two, and the oldest is gonna be 14 in a few weeks.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's really nice, like the with the little ones, because you know all the stuff that's to come, but equally it gets super scary because you remember the 14-year-olds, like when they were two, right?
3:45
SPEAKER_00: So, and you're like 12 years have gone, plus there's not much time left, right?
3:49
SPEAKER_00: We've all seen these scary images of like, you know, you spend what 95% of the time with your kids by the age of like 18, and then it's gonna be this minuscule touch points, you know, it's still gonna be nice, but it's just gonna be very, very different.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: So, in terms of time, I think parenting just teaches you how fast it really does go.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, at the same time, it teaches you the value of time, right?
4:12
SPEAKER_00: So, really being able to slow down and being able to enjoy little moments, and it's it's the little moments I think that count the most.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: It's not the big stuff, you know.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: It's like everybody always gets really geared up for like a New Year's Eve party, and then normally a let down.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: But it's the small parties, the the ad hoc, like you know, soccer play with friends that that is actually really meaningful.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I think in terms of time, it shows you how fast it goes, but also how if you're conscious, how you can slow it down and really enjoy the moments and just go, I know this is gonna pass, but I'm gonna get as much out of it as I can.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I guess in terms of death, uh, you know, we've we've had quite a so I don't have any grandparents left anymore.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: So that flips side, obviously, you know, young kids, and then sometimes I didn't meet my grandparents, and and yeah, how fast things go, and actually to realize sometimes we s we sweat a lot of small things that don't matter anymore in two years' time, and we should really focus on the stuff that does matter.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: You are also, besides being a dad of six, you're you're a CEO of a company, and you've talked a lot there about slowing down and being present and not sweating the small things.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: That sounds like quite a task with what what's going on there.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: What what's um what what do you do to be able to remain present and slow down?
5:26
SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you've had to form consciously over the years?
5:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, for sure.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not gonna lie.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: This is gonna this is obviously a diff it's difficult.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: And there are certain things that can happen in a business, whether it's finance related, HR related, uh, I mean, you know, you could have a PR thing on your hands or whatever, which will just pull you in and you'll just go all out and you'll just be focused, and you wake up in the middle of the night and you think about stuff.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: And but actually, what I realized, and I've just actually gone through a phase where it's been very, very stressful and it had a huge impact, both physically and mentally, where I just was I I wasn't happy anymore for I still like doing the job, but I realized that I was giving it too much attention and I wasn't setting boundaries.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: So I think that bit is really important of setting a boundary and saying, I know this is gonna be like this problem is still gonna be there tomorrow, right?
6:17
SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that I try and do uh just slow down is actually so instead of being always just on the uh in the office and typing away emails, where possible, make time to be with the people on the ground that do the work that we work, uh that we do.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, we support people with with disabilities and actually spending a day just in in a workshop, spending a day with people and and just being present, and that gives so much fuel to everybody, mostly for me, just to really be part of it again and and saying, Do you know what I know there's emails waiting, I know people want my time, but this is why we're doing it, and actually slowing down and sometimes saying not now but later to an email just gives you so much peace because it's it's gonna be okay, it really is gonna be okay.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: And how do you maintain that same kind of mindset when you return back from the office or you close the laptop lid at home to walk into your your house with your with your children and to give them what they need?
7:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: So I would say, also having spoken to quite a few dads over the last few years, that is the hardest challenge is gonna be your emotional control going from work to home.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: Because at work you're very you're professional, you know, people count on you, you know, they're they're not your family.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: So you have you have a certain facade and professionalism around you.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: And then when you come home, you just think, oh, you can kind of you let go a bit.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: And when things aren't happening right at home, so the kids leave the toys out, you know, they they didn't help mom with something, or you know, stuff goes wrong all the time.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: It's very, very quick to get angry or to you know have an emotional outburst, and it's really important, I think, very early on in that parenting journey to realize these are actually the most important people in your life.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: And as much as that email or that conversation with somebody else really annoyed you, they do not deserve you taking it out on them.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: So whether that means you need to build in some ritual to actually have a clear kind of cutoff, or you're you're very conscious of saying, you know, phone is going away, I won't touch it.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: Um so I've got I've got an app on my phone which which blocks certain apps uh at certain times, so I just can't access it.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm totally guilty when I was younger.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: I had the phone with me when I was playing with the kids, and you know, so it's just like a quick glance on the email, making sure everything is okay.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: Actually, just realizing, hang on, this is this is wrong.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: This is so wrong.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: What am I doing?
8:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, they're playing like duplo, and I'm sitting here and I'm telling them this device is more important than you guys.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: So very clear having these boundaries saying this is this can wait.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: And for me, important thing is always I'd rather work late, but having had the bedtime story, than trying to cram in emails and then go and the kids are asleep.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: So it's just I think knowing what what your value base is and then acting accordingly.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Did you notice when you had your phone out and you were being distracted by it whilst your kids were playing around?
9:15
SPEAKER_01: Did you notice whether they noticed, did you notice them start to act differently if you're on your phone?
9:21
SPEAKER_01: Were they disappointed noticeably so?
9:23
SPEAKER_01: Or what what was it that they were expressing, if anything?
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I I would say I um I feel lucky that they that I I noticed that when when my when my oldest ones now were still very young.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: So they would have been two, three, four years old.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: So again, that you know, we're talking like beginning of email and iPhone and all of that stuff.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: But so I I'm not sure if they ever really notice it, but now they do, you know.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: So if I if I then send it like if we're in the kitchen in the morning and they see me, I realize it.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh no, no, no.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: Like the phone, like it can't be here, you know.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: Like I might put in some music for breakfast that we want to listen to, but then it has to go straight down because I can see them looking at me.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: And the oldest has a phone now, so I can't tell him to not be on his phone next to his siblings in the meantime.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm scrolling away, you know.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: So um I think luckily they didn't realize it when I was when when they were younger, but I realized it because I, you know, I think videos started popping up when you saw the difference in kids, and what when you see somebody else do it, it's so obvious.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: You go, how could how could you ever do that?
10:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's your child playing with you, but it's so easy because you just you're so busy, you're so in your own mind.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, yeah, for me it's boundary setting, really, really clear.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, it doesn't feel productive doing like building a duple train for the hundredth time, but it's actually this this is better.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: This is better than sending an email, you know.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I I don't have children yet, you know.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: Touch wood that that comes to pass, but I always find that in the times that I consciously take step away from whatever it I'm doing, whether I'm preparing for a podcast, or whether I'm reading voraciously, or whether I'm thinking I've got to get exercise in or whatever, is that just going away and doing something kind of normal, either sitting with almost no inputs at all, or sitting with a book and a pen and writing stuff down on notepads, or doing things that don't feel like they're connected to the thing.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: And I I can't talk about parenting right now, but I always find that when I get back into whatever the thing was that I had continually been distracted by, that when I've stopped being distracted by it, I'm much better at it having gone and done that other thing.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I I suppose it sounds to me as though not only does it label you to be a good dad by doing those things, but it probably makes you better professionally as well, leaves you with a clearer conscience too, that you are not thinking that you're only switched on for work and kids are secondary and vice versa.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good point.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: And uh it's something I had to learn because I went from before I had the CEO role, I was the operations manager, and that role is is even more, you know, you always have in in those positions, people come to you always with problems.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: It's very rarely that somebody says, Oh, do you know what?
12:13
SPEAKER_00: I just want to tell you a good story like this happened.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's like very rare that that happens.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: But with the ops role, you're you're very fast-paced, you're always like trying to fix stuff, you know, like putting things in place, systemizing stuff.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: And then with the CEO role, it's like actually, hang on, you now need to create this this barrier, this boundary in your thinking, even just to say, okay, these are all the problems.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm gathering the information, and then I need to make space to actually just let it settle, think about it, analyze it, and just slow down a bit.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: So, in that, you know, it's kind of it's very similar to parenting.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: This the slowing down is to actually be a bit more strategic in work, is you know, at home, slowing down means to be more present.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: So they have a slightly different outcome, but the the practices are very similar, I would say.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm tempted to jump back into the philosophical strands again because some when I've read your posts on X, and when I listen to you talk, it seems to me like there could potentially be a bunch of influences sitting behind there.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you sound stoic, you know, memento mori, remember death.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you sound almost Confucian.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh sometimes you sound like there's a a Catholic influence there, which is, you know, let's live a good life to have a good death.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I wonder whether this is something that you've learned as you go, you know, you've learned through examples of being a father to a son and a daughter, or whether there's been a kind of cooperative forming of learning through experience, but then you're getting these precepts from the ages.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that you do philosophically, or are you religious that that forms this this character, this approach?
13:55
SPEAKER_00: I I wish I could say that I'm I'm really well read in philosophy.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm not.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: I did univers I did um philosophy a bit uh at high school, but very, very minimal just for one semester.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: So I can't really so uh upbringing.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh I I was kind of brought up Catholic, but I've I deviated from that very, you know, when I was a teenager.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: I just I yeah didn't follow it anymore.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: So there's I think certain there's certainly a spiritual element uh in in my worldview uh that is still not defined.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: I still couldn't really put a name on it or or define it.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: Um no, this is this is very much uh experience-led, uh, what I'm saying.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think you probably are standing example for why not to be too bookish in life.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm I'm I've become a bit guilty of that myself.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: And when I I remember having a conversation with my fiance's dad and um and and my fiance's mum, and her mum had asked me, you know, why why do you read so much?
14:54
SPEAKER_01: Why are you always uh and I said, I just I feel like I'm trying to mine wisdom from the ages, so when the day comes that I can, you know, I've got a son or a daughter or both, that I'm able to steer them on the right path.
15:09
SPEAKER_01: And they were, you know, they were like, That's commendable.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: And Jerry, my fiance's dad said, Yeah, but I also think you're a good man, you're good character, and it's it's through examples rather than precepts that work, and that even that's a very philosophical concept.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: The idea of example before precept is actually you just need to set a good example that they will figure out the world by watching what it is that you do and how you respond to them and to other people and your conduct.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you have noticed?
15:46
SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned the times where you'd be angry or it's stressed.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: Is that do you do you see the difference in how they respond to you and your relationship with them changing depending on how it is that you act in the world and and see them becoming like mini Tobies along the way?
16:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, big time, big time.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: And I would say, I mean, this this is quite quite personal, really, but um one thing I've noticed is that um it was a really harsh realization.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: Um it's a few years ago now that I was talking to my best friend in Germany on the phone, and we I remember we were sitting, we were sitting in the car, and uh you must have been on speaker, and and you know, we're having a chat, um, and we're just laughing away.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, it's just as if we're back in high school talking rubbish and cracking jokes that are just the two only the two of us understand, and we're like crying, you know.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: Good times.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: And I remember my son, he must have been, I don't know, like six or seven, so it's a few years ago, but afterwards he said, like, Daddy, I've never seen you laugh like that before.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: And I was just and then and that made me really sad.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: I was just like, wow, you're right, you probably haven't.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's only increasingly gotten harder, I think, with the more kids that entered the house, because there is just the sheer amount of laundry cleaning, uh, arguments to sort out, scheduling, taxi journey.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: It is just like it is never, never stopping.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: And even my parents don't get it.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: They don't know my dad just doesn't just doesn't get it, you know.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: Like how how much that means like six kids is just like it's a it's a lot to do.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: And with that comes though, that you're like you're always like next thing, next thing, next thing, next thing.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: And then if you don't build in fun in that, very quickly, your kids will only see you as that, like, you know, I don't know, whether it's aggressive or whether it's just not fun dad.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: It's just that this person that's always running around and then shouts at somebody for having left something here, and then directs somebody to do something here, and that's all they see.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: And then in your mind, you're like, I'm not this person, but it's just what what the environment is dictating.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: And again, it's about setting boundaries.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: So that you know, when the other day I had flip-flops on, and my son was playing basketball outside, and he was like, Oh, do you want to play?
17:56
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Of course, you know, like, yes, I could be, you know, finishing the laundry, I could be doing something, you know, doing the dishes, whatever.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: It's like that can weigh 10-50 minutes.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: Normally, that's a bad thing when I say I play basketball with him because it ends up being an hour, but that equally is a good thing.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, it's so the the notion that I think for for kids it's very easy to see you in a very not in the not in the light that you want to be portrayed in.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: And fun is another thing that I've found with a lot of dads is something that can quickly go out of the window because you you stop hanging out with your friends as much.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: There's so much pressure on you, you're the pro you know, whether mum or dad, you're providing, you're looking after a human being, you're trying to carve out time for yourself.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: It becomes all serious very fast, and you need to actually find a way to build in a bit more fun in your life.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Do you notice between your your wife and yourself, uh, whether there's different ways that you typically find yourselves having fun with the children?
18:54
SPEAKER_01: Do you both have you know is one of you tends towards sport and the other towards I don't know, silly games, or do you notice a difference?
19:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my wife is way more outgoing than me.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, way more.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: Like she will just come up, she will like she'll probably hate me for saying this, but she'll just come up and do like a silly dance in front of the kids, like start singing, and it's just like she will just do that, whereas I'm whether that's German or if it's in me, it's just a bit more cold.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: So I need to warm up a bit more to crack something, but yeah, uh, so but with me, it's definitely more sports.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: So I will I will do that, I'll do more sports.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I find also with the kids getting older, I can share more of my humour with them, and I can share like movies with them.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: So with the oldest one, I've watched Dodgeball, one of my old all-time favorite movies, and that's like it's a very different thing now.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: You know, like you can enjoy that silly humor and you can see how much I love it, and yeah, so it's quite cool.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think there's definitely I feel like you're always attached to your mum, or you're more frequently attached to your mum, it's much easier, and it takes ages before you start getting connected to your dad.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like those years when you start to mature a little bit, you're a bit switched on, you're starting to get adult humour, yeah, and they and you can be a conversation without it just being, you know, the usual infantile look at me stuff.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you start to connect the a friendship starts to grow besides the which I don't feel I feel like doesn't it can't really exist before, you know, you start getting to those teen years where you're starting to try out being a man.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and do you find between your wife and you that there are typical things that you're called upon to do or that you both naturally start inclining towards with regards to the things you do within the relationship around the house for the kids?
20:47
SPEAKER_00: Do you mean in terms of like tasks that we do, like one thing that one does more than the other?
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think we've got I think we've got a good split.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we can we can certainly cover for each other.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh that that that's been I think we've always been good with that.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: And I think the reason being we uh I met her on the first day when I arrived here in Edinburgh.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh so we've lived and worked together from day one.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: So we always had that relationship.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: So kind of working and sharing workload is pretty uh always goes quite easy.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean we've got we've got natural splits.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: Like she will she's really good at um at looking.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the laundry is just it's an insane amount of laundry.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: Like it just it like it gives me anxiety seeing the the amount of the mountains of ironing and and laundry that are on our bed every day.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, whereas she finds the kitchen way more challenging.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: So I'm always normally the one that does like breakfast, lunch, trying to prepare dinner in the morning, uh, very happy to do the dishes and and and that sort of stuff, and cleaning in the living room uh kitchen area much more.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: And then she's much more focused on uh but she's got all the stuff, so she's not just the laundry, but then she's got all um all the things that the kids need and play dates and whose birthday.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: It is and if do we have a present for this person yet?
22:02
SPEAKER_00: And there's a teacher present here, and then there's this permission slip for this school trip.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, she's got it all in a head.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Like, I will have that for work, obviously, but I could not do it without her.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's no way the kids would be they would just be here.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't allow them to go anywhere because I'd forget one of them somewhere or not take him to something.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: So putting missing signups on the blog posts everywhere.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: Have you seen this child?
22:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Or just put air tags in them and just try and collect them in Edinburgh, you know, over the course of the afternoon and something like that.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: So now it's I would say, you know, in all honesty, we're a really good team.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh we've we've worked that out.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: And and if if one of us needs help with something, then then the other one steps in willingly.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we're just we're just tackling it always together every day.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: You're a busy guy, Toby, your CEO, as we've been talking about, and you've also written on X that if a man is ever feeling tired and he's got children, he's come back from work, he's feeling tired, you say, Don't complain, suck it up, why do you say that?
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Because in as as hard as your working day can be and challenging, and I've all had it all, right?
23:15
SPEAKER_00: So financial stuff, HR, all these things can happen.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: But the burden of child raising and looking after a human being that oftentimes, and I think so, even with work, even if it's challenging, you're moving something, you know, you're moving the needle.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: But if you have a toddler at home, all you're trying to do is status quo, like keep it status quo, or don't let it deteriorate too much, because it will deteriorate to a certain degree.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: So it's that the sisyphose kind of analogy where you're just constantly just trying to run after a child, especially when they can start running.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: They will pull things out, they will hurt themselves, they will smear yogurt over the couch, they will then take a sharpie and draw on the wall, and you're just constantly trying in the meantime, you're trying to do the dishes, trying to it's it's so heartbreaking and so hard, and then you're trying to make little time for you know having snack with them, singing with them, reading stories, maybe going for a walk.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: It is so much harder because it's it's all consuming, it takes all your energy, and you I think constantly, as at least that's what I get from from my wife, you will always feel guilty that you didn't do a good enough job because something wasn't done, or you didn't have enough time for craft activities on top of all the other things.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: So it's this constant sense of like, am I good enough?
24:31
SPEAKER_00: is I think way more present in that.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: So I don't have that at work.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: So as much as it sucks, it's like I just find like looking after kids always way harder.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: So even if it's the flip side, right?
24:41
SPEAKER_00: So if if the dad is at home and the the mum goes to work, I would say whoever stays at home has the harder job.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you you you have written and spoken about that before, which is you know, you're in awe of your wife because of everything she does, and I suppose that social effectively being the social organizer for all of the children, keeping everything going, and probably a social organizer for the household, plus all the other things.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is a very taxing thing to do.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: I do tend to find, and I I noticed this when I met my now fiance, is women do have a knack for keeping the social life going.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, men, we have friends, but they're definitely a small in smaller number to women.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: And then you get introduced to this huge network of people, you almost don't even have to work for it.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: And it's uh you just you just show up and you get great friends.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh, women do have a really great knack at doing that, and so having to do that for your whole household and children, and I mean, anyone that I speak to who has kids, whether it's one or two, you know, there's lots of taking them to the swimming bath, taking them to tennis, taking them to whatever.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you guys obviously have that many times over.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: You're you're gonna be you're when when you come to be empty nesters, you're gonna feel it harder than I think anyone else is gonna feel it, you know.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: When you you know, I remember seeing my mum when I would left the house as the younger of two, and she was kind of you know kicking her heels a bit, and she found it quite hard, even though you know I was a late teener by that point.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: But I suppose once you've seen out your six all gone off into the world together after that, you know, 28-year period of absolute chaos, um, it's gonna be it's gonna be quite the come down.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: There there will be grands.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: That's true.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: So by that point, you're on your granddaddy's ACA, I think.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: We're looking forward to it already.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, you might only be a decade away.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: Never know.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's scary.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, yeah, to be honest, I mean, depending, but it might well be that one or two of them are still at home while the first grand grandchild arrives, you know.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: They'll be getting roped into babysitting duties before well before their time.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I I'm looking forward to it.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: It'll be fine.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, the the calm minds that you've you've talked about needing to foster.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, is there anything, you know, you say you're not particularly bookish, uh, and you know that you have to try and train yourself when you come back from work to keep a calm mind.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Are there is there anything that you choose to pay attention to that helps you do that?
27:20
SPEAKER_01: Or is there anything that you, besides the phone, that you decide not to pay attention to because it's too much of a distraction and leads to a disordered mind?
27:30
SPEAKER_01: Dear classmate John here.
27:32
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27:35
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27:43
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27:47
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27:59
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28:02
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28:05
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the rest of the show, classmate.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good question.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh I would say there are three things.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, in terms of immediate, uh an immediate thing that I like to do is um breath work and uh box breathing is something that I've done for quite a long time, which I find really, really calming.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: So the idea being you've got a certain number in here, it could be five seconds, so you inhale for five, hold for five, exhale for five, and hold for five.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: Do ten cycles of that.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: I you can do that anywhere.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: You can do that at the dinner table if it gets loud, and you could just try and just bring down your nervous uh reaction to it.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: So that that's an easy one.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: Uh, time in nature every day.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: Uh I think that's massive.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: I always, always, wherever possible, when we go for a walk or when I go for a walk somewhere, if I can find a stream and just stay there for a bit, even if it's 10 seconds, but really just like completely try and slow down.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes close my eyes.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: So that time in nature every day is is really key.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: But the the biggest one for me is I I've got this routine which I've been have have had now for quite a number of years, is getting up early and I got my morning workout in.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: And I just find that time of just it's it's early, it's before the kids get up.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's that the bit of me time where I can just like I can listen to my podcast, listen to a book music, or nothing, and just just do my exercise.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: But have that kind of physical outlet that always helps me, I think, bring down any sort of anxiety I might have.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: I might do something really hard, hard work, or that kind of makes everything at work seem less hard.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that yeah, that is a big equalizer for me.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: So exercise is is probably the biggest thing.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: Nature, I think it's so undervalued.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: I think, particularly for lots of folks who live in the city and they might only have parks to get to, but I know you live out in a near a hill range called the Pentlands near Edinburgh, not in Edinburgh, and um it cannot be underestimated the restorative effect of being out in those places that are decidedly much less of a human environment.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: And you talked about the sound of running water there, and it is it is definitely a very, very rejuvenating thing to be around running water, and when you're amongst you know babbling brooks and woodlands, and you know, you've got the these hills, which you might see some sheep dotted around on them, and you look around, there's not really anyone else there.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: And those those moments, even if you just get a couple of those moments, once you step back into living inside you, you know, stone or glass or steel edifice again, you do feel way more human.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: And I I certainly notice on the days where I wake up and even if I'm doing things like reading and writing or whatever, but then I'm doing some prep for the podcast before I start my day job, it's if I do all of those things without having stepped outside the house and then gone further than that and gone into something green or you know, like near rivers, then I find myself really on edge throughout the course of the day, like my mind's quite scattered.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Whereas if I just have those few moments, it's like you just press reset and you're ready for the day.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think if if you can, where possible, build in some, you know, like a weekend or a long day.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, we we're lucky with the highlands being being close by, uh, especially if you don't have phone reception, you can just spend a day in the wild.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: I think that's just that's a fantastic reset.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: And if you can build in a night camping, that's are you a big believer in exposing your kids to the elements?
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Do you do you the there's there's a book passage that sticks in my mind.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: So there was a a French philosopher who was a polymath, he's called Michel de Montagnan, and he was from the 15th century or something.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: It's quite funny.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: He ended up writing quite a lot about things he'd learned from reading other people's books and the great texts without having necessarily lived those experiences himself.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: He'd look back and regret that he didn't expose himself to nature and make his body strong and hard, even though his mind was strong, and he'd sit there in his library all day writing and reading.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: But he wrote uh an essay on educating children, and effectively what he'd gleaned from things he'd learned from through the ages and other other people's writings was expose them to the elements to help form their characters.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Do you do you believe in that?
32:23
SPEAKER_01: Do you think your kids respond well to being outdoors instead of being indoors playing around 100%?
32:31
SPEAKER_00: There's no question.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: If they I mean that there's you know a a morning, so I think in general screens have their place, and I wouldn't demonize them.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: But if you have a if you let your kids like have like a three-hour like screen marathon in the morning, and then you expect them to behave afterwards and not fight, like good luck.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: I've not found that to be true.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: But if even if I even if you know they get up early on the or they get up on a Saturday morning, we've got a bit of a slower pace, you know, let them watch something, but then we get them out, like it just changes their mood.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: Like the fighting is less, they're just way more cooperative.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: There's you know, no screens, they play better together, and has such a massive uh layover for the rest of the day.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: So if we you know, especially I remember COVID time, we would um you know, we would just every morning would start with a big long walk, and it's just it transformed everybody's mood massively.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: And for them, it's you know, they I mean we don't have a choice, right?
33:28
SPEAKER_00: It's oftentimes it's dark and wet and rainy here, so we've got plenty of waterproofs for them to just go out and and enjoy those those times.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, no, I think it's it's great.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh, elements uh being exposed to elements is good for them.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: Tech.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: I think tech was always going to come up when we're talking about parenting in the modern age, and uh I I I I'm with you, I don't think screen should be should be demonized.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: I do find that there is so much evidence that kids are being totally deranged by this stuff in in a way or many different ways.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: And I saw this video the other day, I can't remember what it was on, but it was a kid's and he had an iPad in front of him, and on the iPad he's playing Candy Crush, but he also had a smartphone here, and on the smartphone he had Instagram and he was playing on Candy Crush or whatever it was, or something similar.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: But every couple of seconds he would then turn his head 90 degrees to the other thing, scroll to the next video.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: If something caught his attention, he'd pause for a second, but then he'd realize he need to get back to his game.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: So you could see he was absolutely killing the game, you could see he was absolutely killing Instagram, and he was liking and whatever, but it honestly looked like you were watching a little robot.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: He was no older than five, six years old.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: And you think about what that's going to turn into in the future.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: And I suppose this conversation that we're having, particularly where we live in the United Kingdom, about banning smartphones for kids who are under 16, and you think, well, there's there's a case to be made for that because we we see the impact that it will have.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: What I find quite interesting, though, is how we obviously know there's something awry with smartphones and what it does to all of us, but we focus on banning them for children and yet never lead the example ourselves.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: And adults seem incapable en masse anyway, of being able to keep their phones off at meeting desks or meeting tables or out of classrooms with their teachers or wherever in the workplace, or even just sitting amongst friends at the dinner table.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: And now what we're trying to do is let's just ask the government to bring a law out, and hopefully that'll save our children, but we're not going to stop the addiction ourselves.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: And watching watching this develop over the years, I remember when smartphones came out, uh, as you were just talking about earlier on with your first son, it wasn't even like iPhones had taken over then.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: I was working in Curry's in well, one time on the High Street in Manchester, another time in Newcastle.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: And at one of those stints working in those shops, the iPhone had come out.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: And I remember I went from being able to have conversations in the staff room, and everyone was talking about, you know, the big topics of the day, well, of the ages, right?
36:10
SPEAKER_01: We had people of all faiths talking about religion and atheists talking about it.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, we're all minimum wage workers, we're all talking about everything going on in our lives, and then I remember the smartphone coming out and things just starting to change over time.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, and even when I worked in those places, it was banned to have your phone out on the shop floor.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: So everyone would have to put them in your locker.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: But then when the smartphones came out, first the bosses need a work phone, and then they couldn't quite contain themselves, and then workers just stop putting them in the lockers, and before you know it, they're everywhere, and they are literally in every workplace, they can't be kept out, and so it makes me wonder when we kind of know that there are lots of kids, those 90-degree swively kids at five years old, all they've ever known is screens.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: We know we're killing them, and yet we can't seem to stop ourselves from doing it.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: So it sounds like it must be a constant battle to know what's the right level.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: And you sound like you got it pretty much nailed down, which is I know not to be just pulling my phone out, it goes over here in those moments.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: Do you find yourself constantly battling with that?
37:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I still fail, so I don't want to pretend that I'm some sort of guru who gets it right, you know.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: Like I'll definitely be on the phone more than I want to.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, so as I was mentioning earlier, I've I've I've got this app um which for me blocks socials between um nine o'clock at night and seven o'clock in the morning, and then again between 9.30 in the morning and 11.30 in the morning.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: And it blocks them to a degree that I cannot do anything with, I can't, I couldn't even delete the app and then bring it back.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: Like it just it's they're they're gone.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: I can't access them on my phone.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: And if I was so strong and uh guru-like, then I wouldn't need that app, but like we can't we can't battle them, you know, it's too tempting.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: So I have that app, and oftentimes during the work there, I put my phone on grayscale, so it's black and white, so it's just less appealing.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: So I know I need these things, and in a way I found it quite useful that I had to go through that.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we're the generation that you know, we I didn't have Facebook didn't exist when I was a teenager, and I'm so glad it didn't.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: But then we were kind of bombarded with all that stuff when we were like adults, so we had full access and nobody told us it was bad for us.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, I've got screen time on for my kids.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: I've got screen, my sister, my son has a phone, he's got screen time on, uh, I think fairly limited.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's got 20 minutes, and then not nothing in the morning, nothing in the evening.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and if he wants to have something more on the weekend, he'll have to put a request in, and we'll never give him more like than an hour uh for a weekend.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: And you know, and he said the other day, like, why do you do that?
38:46
SPEAKER_00: Like my friends tell him I said, like, look, I have an app on my phone to to block it because you and I are not strong enough, we're not smart enough.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: Like, there are people that have developed that stuff that we haven't we've got no chance, no chance, but you know, he's really into basketball, and like if you can play your basketball game on your phone, or you can go out and shoot hoops or do some sprints.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: It's like if you want to make it in that sport, there's only one way, and it's not gonna be on your phone.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: So it's certainly a battle, but I think as you rightly said, we have to lead by example.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I it's it is quite sad to see, especially with friends, or if you're in the workplace and you know it's like lunchtime or dinner time, and suddenly everybody is like on their social feed, and you're like, why don't we just like talk to each other?
39:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, we're we're here, you know, been working, we might as well check in.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: Like, how you know how how are the things how are people at home and stuff?
39:33
SPEAKER_00: And it isn't just it isn't just phones, so you know the same with smartwatches.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, I've got people that have like work email come ping through on their smartwatch, and that you will have a meeting or stem, and they will just look and kind of scroll through, and you're like, that's equally bad.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, you might as well take your phone out, you know.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think, yeah, I don't know what it will be, but we'll have to realize that this these are tools, but they are at the moment they're using us, and we're not using them.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I totally agree.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's great that actually we've reached a level of self-consciousness or awareness about the dangers of it.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: And there are people like you having those conversations with your son who's coming up going, huh, why are we doing this?
40:14
SPEAKER_01: And you're developing that critical mind in him to realize that, yeah, actually, he's not strong enough to give into the temptation.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: And actually, if my dad isn't and he thinks that there's something to be concerned about, it plants that seed.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: Because my biggest worry about this en masse is we've got a whole generation of digital natives who this is all they've ever known.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, it wires our brains and the way we interact with the world and with people and how we see things, and they're going to have the hands on the levers of all of our nations and all of our institutions, public and private.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: And you can obviously see that there's a very various things within it that dehumanizes us, and that does worry me a lot.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm hoping that what feels like a bit of a public reckoning with this stuff, even if we haven't fully nailed down what it might look like, is there's enough talk about it that maybe we humans may find it in ourselves to go, actually, that's not a path we want to go down.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we can stop just digitalizing everything in our lives and go back to just being more face-to-face embodied humans.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: I think it was clear in the pandemic.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: I remember people saying uh when you know everybody started hopping on Zoom and uh the the talk was, you know, it's like well, 90% of meetings can be done via Zoom.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's it's 90% the same as as being in person.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: There's very little that is that is getting lost there.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: And the two things that really struck me was one was the the jumping between different meetings that have very different contexts and very different, you know, you certain meetings need you to be in a certain mindset, but if you're jumping from a trustee meeting to like an HR problem that you need to solve to then talk to a fundraiser, you know, these and it made it really complicated.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: And every half hour you had like something going on, so that wasn't good.
42:03
SPEAKER_00: The pace of it wasn't good, and um you're you're losing so much when it's not in in like in person, you're losing just so much.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: The whole small talk about you know, how's the family what's happening?
42:15
SPEAKER_00: What are you doing, you know, what are you into right now?
42:17
SPEAKER_00: Are you running, you know, where did you go?
42:18
SPEAKER_00: What all this small stuff that's the bit that connects us.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: And if even if it's just about networking or building building up a group of people that you can draw on if you need help, if it's only business and you never have a personal connection, like you won't pick up the phone or it will feel phony.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: But if you have a genuine connection with somebody, they want to help you and you want to help them.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: And Zoom and and Teams cannot replace that.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: It's it's a it's a great second best option, but it's it's yeah, it's it's definitely not as good.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: I totally agree.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh I've had that experience repeatedly where you book those half an hour slots in and you feel like you've got to get straight on the agenda.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: Or on the flip side, if you don't really have an agenda, you can find yourself just floating through it a bit and you don't really get anything out of it.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: And I I joined the company I was um I was in at the beginning of the pandemic, and pretty much everyone I knew for the whole for a whole year I'd only ever met on teams.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: So there were a couple of them because I'd met repeatedly and they'd spend lots of time with me because they were assigned to me to bring me up in the company, as it were.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: I got to know them a bit, but then I've still never met them physically because I moved teams and different officers and we're in different cities.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: And so that's weird because I kind of knew them, but I also feel like I never did, like they almost didn't exist.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's bizarre.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: You talking about the embodied things in life, you also make the case that kids ought to read physical books that you say it's very important for their development.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: What why why physical books?
43:59
SPEAKER_00: I think.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean again, you know, a screen.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: So I I would I would definitely feel like if if if if you have a Kindle or or something, you know, Kindle I find as baby is is a hybrid, right?
44:10
SPEAKER_00: Bet between the two.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, but a physical book, the sensation of also like where are you in the world in terms of I'm starting this book and it feels like you know your left left left hand will be very thin, your right hand will be very thick because there's so much more to go.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: And then you start slowly going through as I find this haptic feedback of actually realizing you're going somewhere, you've made progress, and now you keep going.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: I always I really cherished as a kid, like knowing when I've reached a halfway point, you know, like wow, I've already made it halfway.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: How would you know that on the screen?
44:43
SPEAKER_00: Like you don't, you know, like with Kindle, it has some sort of page turning, but especially, I mean, uh, you know, we all know that with with PDFs and ebooks, and sometimes there are good ones that you want to read through, but I don't think I've ever sat actually through and read a whole e-book just like that.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: Like I've read so so many books in on Kindle, but a scrollable PDF, it just doesn't have that same feel to it.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: So I think for kids it's um it's the same.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then again, it's a question about screens, right?
45:11
SPEAKER_00: So even if it's reading a book, it's still on the screen, it's still animated somehow.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: And it, yeah, I I would always opt for the for the real deal.
45:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I mean, we can see your books behind you.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh there's also something gratifying knowing the books you've read when you can put them, you can see the broken spine on the on the shelf.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: There's also something humbling about the books you haven't read.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: So I'm um my one of my guilty pleasures is I buy shed loads of books and lots of them I don't get to read before I've bought the next batch, and then they become a book for the other day.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, at least they look good, they make you look learned and well read.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh I I remember reading a passage in one of um Nassi Nasim Taleb's book.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: He was a former an investor.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh you're nodding, you know him, and he um he's yeah, yeah, exactly.
46:03
SPEAKER_01: And he ended up uh ended up writing lots of philosophical books.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: And he talks about um we should all build Umberto Ico's library, which is referencing some kind of philosopher.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: But effectively, Umberto Ico had lots of books on shelves that he'd never read.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: He'd have a room dedicated to all the books he'd never read, and it was to remind himself of all the stuff he didn't know.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: So anytime that you would get through books and think, oh yeah, I know this, and you'd repeat some of the key lines to people, is you can get into this false sense of security that you're actually much more learned than you are.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: You know that Dunning Kruger effect where you know a little bit and suddenly you think you know everything.
46:42
SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you've just got loads of books behind you and you go, Oh god, look at those, those whole two shelves.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: I haven't read those 40 books, but they've been sitting there for two years.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: You realize that you're not actually much of a big shot after all.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have not read all of these books, but then again, that that section here, all the fiction stuff, that's been that's been read uh plenty of times.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh yeah, I bet, I bet.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: What um what I'm trying to think of things that you may have thought parenting was going to be like and it wasn't.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: What did you what delusions were you availed of?
47:24
SPEAKER_01: Were there anything that you thought it was going to be and it wasn't, or and vice versa?
47:28
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so uh I mean we we touched upon it earlier.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: One what one thing being the sheer amount of of cleaning, like seriously, is just underrated.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: And and um I think back and I'm I'm you know, A, I'm at all what my parents did for me, and then I think, oh good, they had like I I would say I was a very neat and tidy kid.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed my room being tidy, and I'm like, oh, they had it so good.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: Like I love being having it tidy, and then with with our kids, there's just so many, and you don't know who did it, you know, and they will all blame each other.
48:01
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, oh no, no, she she left it there.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: No, he didn't say, you know.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: So the the sheer amount of cleaning is just getting used to okay, this is what it's like.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is just part of the deal.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: And I I just wasn't prepared to to to such a big degree, and and I do think then the amount of kids makes a difference.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: Like with one or two, it's like it's quite clear who what who did it or didn't do it.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: So with with many, they get away with with more.
48:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think oftentimes we have this, we have a very romantic notion of what we can instill in our kids, and you know, you'll have these times, and you will, you know, you sit by the by the stream on a st on a tree, tree trunk, and then you will you will instill wisdom onto your children and your values and all of that stuff.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: It's actually that's I don't know, maybe for some people that happens, it doesn't happen for us, but equally, it's so much more enjoyable because you can live life with them, and that's one thing I've always felt is so we like traveling.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh that's what it's our thing.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: It's like we you know, we we don't have a lot of lot of money, but the the money we have we we we like to spend on on going abroad and and and experiencing the world together because we had kids when we were young, so we never did it before having kids.
49:07
SPEAKER_00: And uh oftentimes people would say, Oh, you know, did you did you take the kids with you?
49:11
SPEAKER_00: And we're like, Of course, like of course we did.
49:13
SPEAKER_00: Like that's the worst thing.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: How why wouldn't we take them?
49:16
SPEAKER_00: It wouldn't want to, we don't want to make these memories with the kids.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's the other thing.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes, you know, when because my my parents left me with my aunt before when they were, you know, they went to Vienna, and I I stayed with her because it was like was too difficult taking your one child with you.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I've never been to Vienna because they didn't take me.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: Like, so um I would say there's there's a certain perception of traveling with kids is hard, and 100% long haul flights with babies is not fun.
49:44
SPEAKER_00: We cannot deny that it will be like a pleasurable uh in experience, but it's also totally possible and it's way more rewarding having those pictures with your kids uh and and those memories afterwards.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so two things.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, one thing I didn't expect, and the other I kind of feel it's it's a bit of a myth that you can't travel with kids.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you've touched on it throughout, I think just through implication, but effectively, what it means to be a father is you become in service to the children, to the household, to the greater good.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: You leave yourself at the door, the ego, your own wants and needs, they become secondary or or much further back.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: What did you find?
50:26
SPEAKER_01: If anything, it sounds like you've got quite a lot still going on in your personal life where you keep on top of those things.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: But was there anything when you became a father that you realized that actually these are some things that I used to do a lot and now I don't do so much, and I've had to prioritize these things because I just think they're more important?
50:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do you know a lot of a lot of time wasting?
50:51
SPEAKER_00: Um so when we were younger, you know, you would you you would have like say series, and you would be you would be always caught up on certain series.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you you know, when we're younger, it would be friends, sex and city, whatever it would have been.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: But you you you were like, oh, you know, I always know exactly what's going on on TV, and I've I've caught up, or uh, you know, music and the charts, and like so it would be loads of small things that were you filled your time with, and then suddenly you didn't have time for them anymore because you've got kids.
51:18
SPEAKER_00: But it's also you realized, why did it, where did I let those things dictate my life?
51:22
SPEAKER_00: Like they weren't that important.
51:24
SPEAKER_00: This was sports, you know.
51:25
SPEAKER_00: I used to be really big into football.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, I'm I'm I'm okay watching it.
51:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm not auntie, but I'm also not I don't need to like watch it and get aggressive because my team didn't win, because it's like way more important stuff in life.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: So uh it's I think it's it's those things.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: It's just you get very clear, and you talked, you started with it with the time question, right?
51:45
SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, you've got a very limited amount of time.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: What are you gonna spend it on?
51:50
SPEAKER_00: And especially when it comes to like yourself as well as the relationship with your partner, because those two things will be the things that will have the least time available from now on until the kids are out.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: So you will how do you spend the time that you have together meaningfully?
52:06
SPEAKER_00: And there's an element of certain management of the family unit, whether that's you know, diarising stuff and talking about you know what's happening here and there, but also strategically, where is life going as a family?
52:19
SPEAKER_00: So you you have to have time for that.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: You have to have time as a couple, uh, and how do you keep the flame alive and then time for yourself?
52:26
SPEAKER_00: Because if you lose yourself in all of it and you you kind of lose your identity, I think you will not just burn out, but you will become very resentful because then the family has kind of taken everything from you.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that does happen.
52:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I think you just need to be conscious of okay, what can I do, even in the minimal doses every day, that I just have a bit of something that makes me me, makes me grow, makes me develop.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, there will be seasons in life and there will be seasons within the year when you have maybe more time for it, and sometimes you have less.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: But I think this it's important that micro-dosing of these small things that have boundaries for relationship and yourself, um, that you put them in place.
53:04
SPEAKER_01: Toby, I think you are presenting a very positive vision of fatherhood, what it's meant to be, but also why not to be cowed in the face of it, even if it comes with all of the warts and all that you talked about, that it's not all roses, you can think it's going to be hallmark moments throughout.
53:22
SPEAKER_01: And so I hope you keep on doing what you're doing.
53:26
SPEAKER_01: Before I let you go, one question I like to ask all of my guests is what have you changed your mind about throughout the course of your life or or recently, and what was it that made you think differently?
53:40
SPEAKER_00: So I I would say the biggest thing is that who you know matters.
53:46
SPEAKER_00: I used to think it was I used to think that wasn't true.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: I used to think that if you work hard and if you do a good job, like things will get presented to you and good things will happen to you.
53:58
SPEAKER_00: And that is probably true to a certain degree.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: And the reason I thought that because I always thought of this networking uh and what people do as very uh false, and and you know, as you're just in there for yourself and you're just trying to get to know people that can help you further along in life, and so I really didn't like that.
54:15
SPEAKER_00: I liked really strong real relationships.
54:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think by being so anti-networking, I I didn't take opportunity to actually get to know some people better and actually build proper relationships with them.
54:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that closes doors.
54:29
SPEAKER_00: So um conversely, having realized that and really made an effort to connect with people, especially I think the online world and writing online is so fantastic for that that you can kind of curate your own group of people that can help push you and challenge you in different ways, that actually your network is is very, very important.
54:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it doesn't need to be shallow and it doesn't need to be about just furthering yourself and getting more money or whatever else, but actually developing real relationships.
54:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, you you never know what will happen.
54:58
SPEAKER_00: And even if it means just creating great new friendships with people, that's that's totally worth it.
55:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it doesn't all have to be about productivity, uh, it can also just be about what it means to be a human.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: And we were talking about this before we pressed record, which was our experiences since we started just putting things out there, podcasts or writings, and how positively people can react to it, and obviously the people you meet along the way, you then have a relationship with, and people like to get involved, and you start having these conversations with people that you never thought you'd have or that you didn't think people would be interested in it.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: You thought, is anyone gonna listen to this or read this?
55:39
SPEAKER_01: So I'm all I'm all for that.
55:41
SPEAKER_01: And and whilst you're on the internet, and before I I I I let you go off into the night, is where where can people find you, Toby?
55:49
SPEAKER_01: And can we expect anything from you?
55:51
SPEAKER_01: You've got a big following on Twitter, people seem to love your stuff.
55:56
SPEAKER_01: Now, you've have you got any projects, books, anything in the pipeline?
56:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if anything big, I think plans.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: So I I did put together, so yeah, I've I've I've written for now over three years online, and in the spring I put together a book.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so you can get that free from my website, uh forgingbalance.com.
56:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh and yeah, so it's it's it's called the hybrid dad blueprint.
56:19
SPEAKER_00: So it's for people that you know, for dads that want to kind of maximize both the personal side, the family side, and the work side.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: So just things that I've very much like this conversation, things that I've experienced, learned, and and different tools and techniques and mindset kind of to help along uh with that.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: So anybody can pick that up for free.
56:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, X is a big one.
56:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh, Instagram is one where I think I'll I'll share a bit more uh just kind of snippets because it allows you with stories to have that.
56:47
SPEAKER_00: Um I think in terms of building or something big, I'm I'm still very early stages in terms of YouTube.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I'm very conscious.
56:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't want to be like a vlogger, I don't have time for it.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to have my family in that, you know.
57:01
SPEAKER_00: Some people do it where they have their family right from the camera.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's not right for them.
57:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'm I'm still trying to figure out how I can maybe just share a bit more of the journey without overexposing the family.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: So that's that's probably the biggest challenge at the moment for that.
57:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, good luck with it.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: It sounds like you've got your head screwed on, so I'm sure you're not gonna go exposing all like you're living in the Hello magazine or anything.
57:24
SPEAKER_01: But I will be, I'll be, I'll be keeping a close eye, keep fighting the good fight.
57:28
SPEAKER_01: And I hope anyone who's listening or watching feels as positively about the prospect of entering fatherhood and family life with everything it brings, uh, as you seem to be, even after all of this time and with six children behind you.
57:42
SPEAKER_01: So it's been an absolutely wonderful conversation to have, Toby, and hopefully we can we can meet in person.
57:49
SPEAKER_01: We live not far from each other.
57:51
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
57:52
SPEAKER_00: That I would love that.
57:53
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
57:55
SPEAKER_00: Take care.
57:56
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: To keep up to date with all that I am doing, please subscribe to the Thinking Class YouTube channel at Thinking Class and follow me on X at Thinking Classes.
58:11
SPEAKER_01: Thinking Class seeks to understand the civilizational issues we face and why what our leaders do in response matters.
58:17
SPEAKER_01: Here I seek to explore the ideas, values, and culture that made our civilization, those that are unmaking it, and how leaders at our public and private institutions should respond.
58:26
SPEAKER_01: Engage with me on YouTube or X or write to me at thinkingclasspod at gmail.com to tell me who you want me to speak to and what topics are important to you.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: I look forward to seeing you there and for joining me on this journey.