Latest / Walk Talk: Faith in Motion / Tongues Again and Again
Transcript
- Pj Verdin: Well, here we go again. The infamous topic of tongues. We've spoken on it before. Hopefully, this is gonna be the last time. For all of you out there who have may have heard the other episodes, I have one more question for you. Who is Charles Fox Parham? Well, we're gonna get into that and a whole lot more on this episode of The Walk Talk. All right, brother. Man, I just Randy: All right. All right, man. Let's get into it. Pj Verdin: I just cannot seem to get away from just more and more revelation of this topic haunting me. I and and I use that term, man, because you know, I I I know I've said before, like I'm so over talking about this. And then, you know, I I just have more and more things just revealed to my spirit, man. And it and I guess it it just drives me. It drives me a little bit crazy, man, because I I really do care about people who who kind of fall into this, man. Randy: I'm I'm with you, man. And let's just be honest. This is probably not the last time the topic is going to come up. But I think that I'm with you. It's like, we don't want this to be a podcast where all we do is talk about the same things over and over. But man, every time you turn on the feed, you know, you look at your social media, you turn on the news, what have you, and you see just the crazy things that are going on out there in the world, it's like, whoa, how can we not? Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy: Yeah, how can we not talk about some of this, even if we've talked about it before? Pj Verdin: Well, and and here's the thing, you know, the whole the whole thing about this podcast is we we are literally just talking about our everyday walks, man. And and this just seems to be a repetitive, repetitive thing. And and don't get me wrong, man, the amount of things that I look into and that I, you know, I start deep diving, tongues is so far. It's not even on the list. It doesn't even pop up in the algorithm. But every now and then I'll get some new kind of craziness that just leaves me mind blown. And I'm like, man, what? Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: This is the direction that we're going in. And I know that we we kind of spoke about this offline, but like I've literally seen new videos where there's certain individuals who have gotten to this point. They this is where, you know, I I remember at one point in time I used the term modern day sp tongues, and someone Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: did not like that that term. well what do you mean? Ma you know, tongues is biblical. Well the origins of tongues is biblical, but we we'll get into that in a minute. But the Randy: Well well tongues in in its original context is totally biblical. Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. So and and hold it, give me one second, because we we're gonna we're gonna go there for sure. Randy: Okay, all right. Pj Verdin: just to type any loose ends, we're gonna go there for sure. But the modern way terms is used, I'm seeing it evolve into even something further and further than what it was intended to be. And I guess that's what stirs my spirit and and honestly, you know, kind of frustrates me because of of how A bad of a representation, I feel like it is of the word of God. Because what I've seen Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: multiple times, and and you could look this up out there, is people are not even using these babble words, this gibberish anymore. Now they're just making sounds that that sound like Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: beatbox like literal beatbox and just and that that's their version of tongues. And I'm like, this is where we've gotten, but how can you sit there and tell that person, well, that's that's not the real thing. Whenever Your version is not the real thing either. You know what I mean? Randy: Yeah. Yeah. And and and I'm I'm I'm happy to dive back into this because, you know, as we've discussed before, it's a topic that, you know, i I'm passionate about. I've been passionate about it for a long time, ever since, you know, I really first experienced it as a teenager and, you know, had a lot of question marks and started digging into it. And I've seen personally, you know, through our conversations, man, I've seen you kind of grow and evolve and change, you know, where a lot of our conversations kind of started, you know. around this topic and I seen you a lot more, I would say, open towards it in in in the past. Whereas now I think, you know, you've done some research and you have some stronger opinions than, you know, what you originally had. Pj Verdin: Well, hundred percent. And and and look, it you know, it it's come it's come through a lot of prayer and a lot of discernment, to be honest with you, man. And you know it, it's Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: because you know, before I was just kinda like, man, you know, people do it, some some people can, some people can't. I don't know, I don't know. And then and then the more it was just on my heart, man, the more the more I looked into it. I've had discussions, I've prayed about it, I've deep dove into it. And the things that I've found, I'm like just like, man, and and mind you, I'll I'll be a hundred percent transparent. Man, there's there's people that I I've lost, you know, as as friends because of Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: of of something as as as simple as this. And and it's not because I I I don't want to prove, you know, right versus wrong. I just care. You know what I mean? I care about Randy: Right, right. Pj Verdin: whether or not the word of God i is being carried out biblically or not. And and and I and I think that there's so many so many times and so many different topics where we can't kind of we can't really Figure it out either way, right? There's there's just Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: stuff that's left up to faith. But then there's there's times whenever we can kind of get to the bottom of a thing, I feel like. Randy: Yeah, I agree. And in in tongues to me is an issue that I want personally to be an open-handed issue. It's an issue that I don't think should divide anyone. But unfortunately, bec and we've talked about this before, because you have certain denominations, certain Christians that believe that you're not saved, you don't have the Holy Spirit unless you spoke it in tongues or you speak in tongues. That kind of makes it more of a close-handed issue. Because if I'm sitting here saying, Pj Verdin: Yeah. It elevates it. Randy: Hey, it's not that big of a deal, it's a spiritual gift, either have it or don't. And and you are on the other side saying, Well, wait a second, if you don't have it, then you don't have the Holy Spirit. And then I say, Well, hey, if I don't have the Holy Spirit, that means I'm not saved. Well, now we're at a bigger impasse than just it's a gift that either, you know, you might have the gift of teaching, I have to give the gift of tongues, or vice versa. Pj Verdin: Right, right. And I mean, you know, realistically, Paul goes i into great detail in the scripture on about this topic, you know, and and for the even even contextually how it was back then the way it should be done and and and the way it shouldn't be done, and then ultimately just saying like who but it's not y'all making it a this bigger issue than it needs to be ultimately. You know what I mean? But Randy: Yeah, yeah. Pj Verdin: anyways, so so kind of circling back, I would say this for anyone out there Who who has experienced either speaking in tongues yourself or know somebody that that you you're close to that speaks in tongues? Have you been in a church setting where you've heard this modern day speaking in tongues? Okay. I I I would I would question, I would say, okay, well, where does that come from? And most people's answer would be, the Bible, the day of Pentecost. That's where this comes from. And Randy: Comes from the day of Pentecost. The tongues of fire came down as flames and split and you know, everyone started speaking. Yeah. Pj Verdin: And and I would say I would say yes and no, because Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: tongues biblically did happen on the day of Pentecost. That's whenever we see the this whole thing start. But explicitly throughout the Bible, and you can go and do your own homework, I've already explained this. The all the the way tongues is used in the Bible, especially in the New Testament, is two different ways. Tongue as an organ that resides inside of your mouth or languages. Spoken, known, translatable, interpretable language. That was known. Period. Now, you know, whether or not you want to get into the the whole, you know, angel's language or men's language and that whole hyperbole that people try to deny or whatever, we've already we we've already covered that. But here here here's my next question because we've already kind of, you know, addressed some of those things. I would ask each and every one of you this question. Who is Charles Fox Parham? Or even even one better, who's William J. Seymour? If if you're like most people, you would say, I have no idea. You know, you are you wouldn't you just making up names? No. So upon this recent revelation that I've had, you know, there's this just little stirring in my spirit, I I I wanted to know, like, okay, you know, I I you and I both know we we went to a Pentecostal church growing up, you know? Yeah. Randy: Several. Yeah. I mean, yeah, several Pentecostal churches, conferences, et cetera. I've been around a lot of Pentecostals in my life. And I never Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. And and what I heard Randy: heard of those names personally. I had heard of the Azusa Street Revival, but I I I personally don't recall ever hearing either one of those names. Pj Verdin: Me me neither. The Azusa Street Revival is I've heard about it in a bunch of different circles. That's what led me to these two people. And it led me, it led me backwards to these people because the Azusa Street Revival took me to William J. C. Moore, who was the guy who who preached at the Azusa Street Revival. And the guy that he learned from was Charles Fox Parham. Now, young go do. Randy: Okay, so William Seymour was preaching at this big revival called Asusa Street, but he learned from this Parham guy. Pj Verdin: So so yeah, so they're basically the the two, I guess what you would call founding fathers of the development of the early spread of of Pentecostalism or or holy Pentecostalism, right? Randy: Okay. So they're kind of like the leaders, the early leaders of the Pentecostal movement back in like the Pj Verdin: So so yeah, so John Fox Parham. Randy: early nineteen hundreds. Pj Verdin: like 1901, yes. So Randy: Okay. Pj Verdin: John Fox Parham is is the basically the one who started preaching baptism in the Holy Spirit by evidence of speaking in tongues. But here here's the funniest thing, okay? Now y'all can go look this up for yourself. A lot of fun facts in this guy's life. But even in the beginning with him, his understanding of speaking in tongues was that it was a known language. To the extent so so let me give you this this little fun rundown on how this goes. So this guy Parham grew up Methodist, kind of defected from that, started getting into this thing where he he started kind of stuttering studying you know. stuff like the day of Pentecost and and he you know, a lot of more of these spiritual gifts and he, you know, was like, okay, this is kind of what I wanna focus my my work on, right? Randy: Stuttering would make more sense than studying though. Pj Verdin: Well well it and it right. But the funny thing is is is whenever he like again he he started this whole thing and and even to his own knowledge, his own understanding of the word of God, which he was right, was that speaking in tongues was referred to as a known language. So he starts kind of pushing this, baptism of the Holy Spirit, we need this. And and so one night he's he's he's preaching. And s this woman ends up speaking in in a language that she doesn't understand. And nobody was there to ent go ahead. Randy: So no, hold on, finish that thought and then let me ask a question. Pj Verdin: So this lady, after he he preaches, this lady speaks out in this this language that she doesn't understand. Now nobody was there to interpret it, but everybody in as a consensus thought that it was Chinese. They thought that she was speaking Randy: Okay. Pj Verdin: Chinese, a known language. They thought she was speaking Chinese, even though personally she never spoke Chinese, she didn't know how. But they understood it as wow. This lady just spoke Chinese because I prayed for the the gift of the Holy Spirit of a known language, spirit. Randy: Okay. Pj Verdin: Spiritual gift of tongues. Randy: So this was not the first case of this wasn't a first acknowledged case of dysglosolia then. This was they thought she was speaking a language. Pj Verdin: No. A hundred percent. They thought they they thought she was speaking a language so much that that and look, this is this is how convinced they were that it was a known language. Parham convinces people to go out on these missionary trips and tells them, y'all don't need to learn the local language. The Holy Spirit is gonna give you the ability to speak the language of the locals and y'all can evaluate evangelize there. Randy: All because they heard this one woman speak in what they thought was Chinese. And so he just assumes, like, hey, the spirit's moving, she's speaking Pj Verdin: was Chinese. Yeah. They he was like he was like Yeah, moving. Randy: in other languages, we're gonna go out and and evangelize, and the spirit's gonna help you guys to speak in other languages too. Okay. Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. And and people, I mean, so there were people who like left all of their belongings to to go do this Lord's work and and and you know, be missionaries. And and so they they show out there and it was a drastic embarrassment, nobody could do it, and so this thing just Randy: Well. Pj Verdin: fell flat on his face and and and people just left, like they they they couldn't happen. So then Randy: So so wait, when you say nobody could do it, were they just they were they not even speaking in anything other than English? Pj Verdin: No, they they they weren't doing they weren't even doing this this gibber gibberish non talk that you hear today. They weren't even doing that. They Randy: Okay, so they weren't even doing glossolalia. There was nothing coming out different. They just they Pj Verdin: No, nothing. Randy: just failed to even try. Pj Verdin: They, because of that one instance, they thought that they were gonna go out there and the Holy Spirit was gonna work through them and just like on the day of Pentecost and allow them Randy: Okay. Pj Verdin: to to to bridge the gap of language barrier, and they were gonna be able to preach to these, you know, to the natives of these places. And and and so they they went fully expecting that to happen, and nothing happened. Absolutely nothing. So Randy: Gotcha. Okay. Nothing. Not even what happened with the lady where I'm guessing at this point she was probably the first case of glossolalia, even though they didn't know it at the time. But not even that for these people. Pj Verdin: Well w well right. Well yeah, 'cause yeah, I mean, who knows? They they s they thought she was speaking Chinese, but there who knows what she was actually speaking. Yeah, we just don't know. There was Randy: Right. Who knows? So maybe she really was, we just don't know. Okay. Pj Verdin: I I I would the only reason I would say probably not is because nobody was there to interpret. You know what I mean? And we do see that in scripture. So you know what I mean? Randy: Sure, sure. So no one was there to interpret. There was no Chinese speakers there to to raise their hand and say, my gosh, she's speaking in my language and here's what she's saying. Which is my Pj Verdin: Correct. Correct. Randy: understanding of what Paul's talking about when he's saying, like, hey guys, don't just show up speaking in tongues unless someone's here to interpret. Pj Verdin: a hundred percent. So so yeah, so that that whole thing goes down. Well, in the meantime, this this William J. Seymour kinda gets interested in in Parham's work, even though they they both kind of they didn't really work together. They just th they well and and because I'm not a hundred percent clear, but there are I guess allegations that that John Fox or excuse me, Charles Fox Parham was racist and he supported the Ku Klux Klan to some capacity. he he was a Ku Klux Klan sympathizer is what they call him. William J. Seymour happened to be an African American guy. And so there was like Parham the reason why he didn't participate in the Azusa Street revival was because he believed that there needed to be segregation and so but But they share these ideas of this of this, you know, we need to we need to see the spiritual gifts happening again. So the crazy thing is, is whenever we're moving in the direction of the Azusa Street revival, this William J. Seymour guy is is preaching in there. He's preaching at this thing about the the baptism of the Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues, right? And I I'm not sure I I don't remember if if he was he you know, I mean he's he's followed he followed Parham w whose understanding Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: was it was a known language. I'm i I I don't remember it it clarifying whether it would be the actual glossa that we see in scripture meaning languages or is this glossalalia which is the the new word that they described about this new way of speaking in tongues. But anyways, so this guy Randy: Should we just define that again real quick? I know we've defined it in the past, but just in case there's anyone who's wondering, I got it pulled up here. It says glossalalia means speaking in tongues, producing speech like sounds that the speaker has not consciously learned or planned. and it comes from glossa, which is means tongue or language, and lalia, which means speaking or talking, but it refers to the aesthetic or spirit inspired speech, especially when the utterance is not recognized. As a known human language. So in other words, it's the babbling gibberish that, you know, no one understands what's being said. This is not just you don't understand because you don't speak Chinese. This is no one understands, not even the person saying it. Costalelia. Pj Verdin: Right. Yeah. So so check this out. Let me let me just read this to you. So this is about this is about the Azusa Street Revival in reference to this William J. Seymour. So it says Seymour arrived in Los Angeles on February twenty second, nineteen six, and preached at Julia Hutchins Church two days later. Seymour argued that speaking in tongues was the evidence of having received the Holy Spirit, even though He had not experienced it himself. So, yeah, so he never did it, but he's like, hey, this is the evidence of that. So it goes on to say Hutchins and J.M. Roberts, president of the Southern California Holiness Association, rejected Seymour's position as contrary to accepted holiness views and had the church doors padlocked to keep Seymour out. Hutchins Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: and a local business association called a special meeting at which They asked Seymour doctrinal questions. Among things, the Holiness leadership claimed that sanctification and baptism of the Holy Spirit were the same thing. While Seymour remained unconvinced that the leaders themselves had been baptized in the Holy Spirit, again, neither has he, the the association president removed Seymour from the prostrate, forbidding him to teach the doctrine of baptism in the spirit and the holiness of church. And so it just goes on to say he was like, Okay, well, I'm gonna go and start this revival. And Anyways, Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: somewhere between all the stuff going on with Parham and Seymour and them trying to do it in the in the correct context of the Bible, where it's a known language, gift of the Holy Spirit, b bridging this language barrier gap and and and and God's word being exchanged between you know two parties. Couldn't do that. Somewhere from there to the Suza Street, they said, you know what? Fake it till you make it, baby. You know what I mean? If if we could just Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Pj Verdin: make these sounds and and and and say, you know what, this is the language of angels. You know what I mean? That's that's the Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: thing that they go to. It this is the language of angels. And so there's you know, there's no way to to you know reconcile if this is actually happening, right? But but the thing is it's like you know the burden of proof is not on us. You know what I mean? Like this is Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: You know, I I I think I sent it sent it to you, I think w who was it, John MacArthur who said how Randy: Yeah, John MacArthur. Pj Verdin: yeah, what what it what did he say, man? it's it's the easiest it he said it's the easiest gift to fake in Randy: Falsify. Pj Verdin: yeah, to falsify in in ignorant circ circumstances or something like that. And Randy: Right. Yeah. Pj Verdin: and I'm like, that's that's a pretty Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: blunt but but accurate. Randy: Yeah. So let me let me give a little bit more background too, because I don't know how much of this you're aware of, but I remember back in geez, what was it? The late 2010s. I was working on my bachelor's degree. And I don't know if you even are aware of this, but my minor was in history. So I studied a lot of history, you know, all my electives essentially were were history. I was a history minor. And I remember Pj Verdin: Nice. Randy: reading a book called The Kingdom of Matthias. Which most people have never probably ever even heard of, right? But it was a book basically about a prophet in New York who believed he was, you know, leading the second great awakening. And essentially it was a cult. And what most people don't realize is in the mid to late 1800s, all the way up to the 1900s, early 1900s, we just see just like this great movement of man. Where you have all these cults forming. Mormonism, LDS, was founded in 1830. We got you know Adventists in the 1840s. We have modern spiritualists in 48. We got Christian science in 1879, black Hebrew Israelites, everybody's favorite guys on the streets with bullhorns in the eighteen eighties, right? So we have all these different movements, and there's a bunch more, and I'm not saying any one of them are. Bad or evil or cults. Some of them probably are, some of them probably are not. You know, Jehovah's Witnesses, the JWs, they fall in there as well, right? And in you know, what was it, like the 19 or let me see, I think it was like the 1870s. So, like between like the early thirties, 1830s, 40s, all the way up to like the early 1900s, we see all these types of movements, some of which are still around, some which of which have fizzled out, some of which everyone would agree are cults, and others which are part. of the more mainstream, you know, Christian community. And this came right kind of at the athlet of that. Pj Verdin: Right. And and you know, so what I see, man, is is this basically this movement that you know the Bible talks about where it's like these are a lot of this is is the doctrine of man, right? Sounds good, sounds spiritual, has some kind of Randy: Mm-hmm. And movements of man, doctrine of man, movements of man. They're they're they're Pj Verdin: Hun hundred percent. Randy: giving credit to the Holy Spirit, but it's totally I mean, when you're gonna go out there and try to force it and like you said, fake it till you make it, just roll your R's enough until you start speaking in another language. That's not that's Pj Verdin: Well Randy: not God. Pj Verdin: right. Well and and the thing is is like, you know, people have have asked me like, well, you know, i if this is if this is not real, then then how is it that it's so many people a hundred and twenty years people have been doing this and I'm like, you know, the only the only conclusion that I've ever been able to come to, and it's funny because every other pastor or theologian or scholar that I've ever heard, and and mind you, this was this was just, you know, how I felt about it, how I rationalized it in my little puny mind. was I was like, I think that it's, you know, it's a learned behavior. It it's through conditioning. Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: It's it's what they were exposed to. And so it just kind of became the norm. And guess what? Every every pastor or theologian that that accurately defines what what this thing is and and'll tell you that this is this new way it's happening is not it, they say the same thing. This is basically it it's become a cultural thing. People who grow up and they see it, they They imitate it because they think that that's what's supposed to happen. And that's that happens Randy: Hundred percent. Pj Verdin: so much time i in in many different aspects of the church. We do things that look good, sound good spiritually, but man, we're so far off basis as far as biblical sound biblical doctrine instead of the the the doctrine of men. It's crazy. Randy: Yeah, I mean, and when you are growing up in that environment, not only are you more likely to imitate that, and like you said, it becomes a learned behavior, but when you're growing up in that environment where you're hearing week after week, month after month, year after year, that this is evidence of the Holy Spirit. And then you hear, and if you don't have the Holy Spirit, you're not saved. And Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: you gotta be baptized in the Holy Spirit. And if you're baptized in the Holy Spirit, you're gonna speak in these tongues. You can only hear that stuff so many times until the music is just right. Until the lighting's just right, until your mood is just right. And then all of a sudden, what happens? You go up to that altar call and then that pastor puts their hands on you and they start, you know, praying in quote unquote tongues at the top of their voice. And then all of a sudden, maybe someone whispers in your ear, maybe not. Maybe you just, you know, start to imitate what you're hearing, and then it comes out of you. And maybe you feel genuine, like you know, it was a movement of God because you know the lighting was right and the music was right and everything was right. Maybe you feel like it was a genuine movement of God. Or maybe you just go along to get along. I don't know. And there's probably like, you know, people in both camps. but Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: yeah, I mean, 120 years, when you look at 2,000 years of Christian history and you have 120 years of, you know, this behavior, and you know, it's it's It's funny that they, you know, then look at verses that talk about, you know, whether you speak in the t the language of men or angels. And it's like we know, you know, because we study our Bible and we look at the the culture and the context that you know the Jews believed that Hebrew was the language of angels. I'm sure if you were to show up in in second century Judaism or Second Temple Judaism, And start doing this stuff and tell them, well, hey, I'm just speaking in the ain in the the language of angels, they would laugh at you because they would say, Well, that's that don't sound like Hebrew to me. So what do you mean you're talking in the the language of angels? I could speak in Hebrew, you know, inematovan naim, shevetakim gamiakad. This is Hebrew. Like that don't sound like Hebrew to me, especially not the clips we're gonna play here in a second. Pj Verdin: Right, right. A hundred percent. And and and you know, what this is my thing, man, going back to what we're saying, like growing up in in Pentecostal churches, like I've heard everybody point back to like, no, like this is you know, the spirit of God was moving so much at Azusa Street that that this this gift of the spirit just like resurfaced from from the day of Pentecost to Azusa Street, you know, there's just this revival. And it's like, okay, well, if we're talking about that. Then you understand the people who were responsible for the the beginning of this movement, if you're pointing it back to Azusa Street, even those guys who are you're telling me as a as a Pentecostal or as a charismatic, this is why we, you know, this is where this came from. It it it originated the day of Pentecost, but but there was this great revival and the spirit started moving again, you know, in in 1903 or 1900 whatever it was at Azusa Street. And even those guys will tell you, like, we started off our foundation, was it was a known language. So you Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: you're you're you've even deviated from your own origins that you're you're pointing back to. You know what I mean? yeah. Randy: It started off on Azuzu street, now it's people rapping it while they're driving their Azuz down the street. Pj Verdin: Yeah, a hundred percent blasphemy. Good play play the clip, man. That's crazy. Crazy. Randy: Can you hear it? Pj Verdin: Insane. Insane. guessing this is what it looked like right after everybody walked out of the upper room, after God's literal spirit descended upon, you know, with rushing wind and and tongues of fire. I'm it had to be exactly what it looked like. Randy: Yeah, insanity. Pj Verdin: Insane. Insane, man. Jeez. Randy: You wanna watch the next one? Pj Verdin: I not really, but play it for the people, man. Play it for the Randy: Let's let's watch everybody's favorite mega church pastor do do his rendition rendition rendition. All right, you ready? All Pj Verdin: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Randy: right, here we go. Pj Verdin: Ha ha ha. Man. Randy: All right. Pj Verdin: I feel like it's such a mockery, man. I feel I and it it it frustrates me because of, you know, really like I mean because A, because I feel like it's mocking my Lord and Savior. And and B because man, I know people, like you said, I know people who who it's a very real thing for them. Like it's a very real experience of their walk, man. And and it's like, you know, my my heart, my heart bleeds for for people being deceived, you know, by by people who were supposed to be watching out for us, that shepherding us, you know, pointing us in the right directions, explaining these things, deep diving and finding this information out, man. I I'm I'm not, you know, Sherlock Holmes or or or some kind of detective. It wasn't hard for me to find out all this information about where this this thing started from, even though i it it goes back 120 years. Man, this is an information age, but you have to care enough about this word. You know what I mean? In order to Randy: Yeah. Well Yeah, a hundred percent, man. And and here's the thing. Here here's what really kind of frustrates me. So yeah, that was a funny little clip we just watched of Kenneth Copeland that somebody put together this montage. You know, we got people, you know, in the basement rapping, you know, in in in tongues in Pj Verdin: In in the spirit. Yeah. Randy: in the in the spirit, quote unquote in the spirit. But let me tell you, Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: you know what really frustrates me is you have people like, you know. And these are all people with flaws, you know, they're all people with flaws, but like the late Ravi Zacharias, you got people like John Lennox and William Lane Craig and Frank Turek and all these people, man, who are out there like apology, you know, apologists who are out there defending the faith, who are out there, Pj Verdin: Yes. Randy: you know, preaching, you know, sound doctrine and sound gospel to non-believers, and yet the the their own side is giving them ammunition like this. To throw it back in their face and say, How could I take you guys serious? Yeah, it just Pj Verdin: To discredit us. Yeah. Right. Randy: it discredits the faith when you got these guys who are putting themselves out there on college campuses where bullets might be flying over their head, or you know, they're going in there, they're debating, you know, and they're getting ridiculed by, you know, people in positions of power and of authority, and they're going out there and they're defending the fate with all they got, with logic and with reason. Reasoning and sound doctrine, and yet you got guys, you know, we get you got this kind of stuff going on in the background. It it doesn't help the cause. Pj Verdin: at all, man. You know, it's just the thing, like I I I could see you know how hard it is for for me to see like trying to bring somebody to the to the faith or even defend your faith whenever you don't even fully understand why it is or where it comes from. Like, you know what I mean? Like we we we like to talk about the Holy Spirit convicting us a a lot, you know, and that's a One of those things. But here's my thing. Where's your own conviction? Like, where does your conviction lie in in why you believe what you believe? And and we've we've already beat this point to death as well. Like it's because nine times out of ten, you're believing something that you heard from somebody else. You know what I mean? There's no other there's no other basis or foundation other than that. Because if everybody is standing on, you know, the this you know, this new movement of of of gibberish and and the understanding that it's not a a a spoken language that can be interpreted. Interpreted and that it will be interpreted if it's from the Holy Spirit, because the whole point is it you know, think about it like this. You know who was the interpreters on the day of Pentecost? The people who are hearing it in their own language. They were the interpreters. You know what I mean? So Randy: Yeah. Exactly. Right. Right. Pj Verdin: it's like, man, you know, if we if if you are are really gonna live this life and and and walk this walk, man, you gotta l care about this word and in in your your your own soul enough or you know, well, not even that, it's just man I I just respect the word as much as I respect the savior, as as much as I respect you know, the word as the man. You know, in the beginning was the word and the word was was with God and the word was God. Like I that's the way I treat this word, man. And if it's being misrepresented, then I feel like you're misrepresenting the word as as the the person. Just it blows Randy: Yeah Pj Verdin: me one. Randy: yeah yeah man and and you know where you know where is where is the conviction? You know, I I guarantee you every one of the videos that you go look up online of some craziness happening, people rapping in the spirit, you know, rapping in tongues, beatboxing in tongues, whatever it is, like whatever kind of nonsense you see, there's people sitting in the audience who are thinking this is not this is not. The gospel. This is not what I signed up for. This is not what I believe. And maybe, Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: maybe they're not studied enough to be able to pull out a Bible and and show the pastor or whoever's doing it, here's where, you know, you're wrong. Maybe, and that's okay. But they know in their heart that it's not, it's not right. It's not a movement of God. It's not an act of God. They know it's not the spirit. And all I'm gonna say is where's the conviction? Where's the ki conviction to vote with your feet and get up and just leave? Or or to approach the pastor and say, hey, like, can we talk about this? Look, I'm not saying throw stones at anybody and and we're not saying we're 100% right about everything. We're not pastors, we're not priests around here, but we want to have the conversation. I feel like there's not enough of this conversation that so much of this stuff is happening because people either are afraid to challenge authority or they're or they're just afraid to have the conversation or they don't care enough to do the research and study their Bibles. Not just read it, study it. Pj Verdin: Right. Right. D deep dive into it. Seek after it. What with everything that you got. And and and here's the thing, man, the information is out there. It it is out there. You know what I mean? and and here's the thing, you know, I remember the the very first time I had this conversation with with somebody, you know, it in and I was really coming with questions and and I'll tell you like this is, you know, the this was the overlying point for me. I said, you know, here's what here's what scares me. I said what's scare overarching Randy: It's gotta be overarching or underlying. It can't be overlying. Which one is it, brother? Pj Verdin: point or underlining point, both of them, either or pick one. Here's my thing though. This is like this was just really at the core of of of my concern. I said, what if God does the work and plants the seed in somebody's heart and gets them to walk through these double doors at this church and they come in here expecting to hear a word of God. And they hear this this gibberish, this babble, this mumbling, whatever you want to call it, that they don't understand. And that's what they get instead of the word of God. And then they leave, never receiving the what God planned for them. And I was told, well, listen, you know what? On the day of Pentecost, whenever it happened, did did God care, you know, w who heard what? And I'm well, hold up. We're we're dealing with two different understandings because everybody who did hear, I mean, the majority, not everybody, but did understand. But but to my point, the crazy thing is this even if we we strip all that back, what you see a lot of times is even if you want to just let's say for the sake of argument that this this gibberish babble thing is was legitimate, even in that context, nine times out of ten, it's still not done according to how Paul instructs for it to be done. You know what I mean? He says if if it's gonna happen, it shouldn't be more than two or three people and it needs to be interpreters, this, that, the other. And to my point, in in in First Corinthians 14, 23, it says, Therefore, if the whole church comes together in one place and they all speak with tongues, and they're and there coming those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say you're out of your mind? You know what I Randy: Mm. Yep. Pj Verdin: mean? It's exactly what Paul said. and that was my concern. And so it's like Randy: That was your concern, yeah. Pj Verdin: a hundred percent. So and that's that's Biblical, I need and and don't no don't get me wrong, that's not how I put it together. I was just like, that's how my mind works. I'm legit legit thinking, like, man, what if somebody's coming for the word of God and they don't get it because we're speaking this gibberish? And then and then it's exactly I I find it in First Corinthians 14, 23, and I'm like, yeah, that that that was my thing too. And Paul's saying, Don't do it. He said it'd be better to Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: to be to prophesy, you know what I mean? So that the unbelievers Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: can or the un unimpersoned uninformed person is is convinced like, wow, this is this is a real deal. Randy: It and I could see why everybody might want to show up and just start speaking in tongues. I mean, can you imagine, like realistically, man, how cool that would be? I mean, like, if you were just like out on the street and you ran into, you know, a a person who only spoke Spanish, and as soon as you started to talk to him, Spanish words just came out of your mouth and they could understand you. And then you went down to, you know, order some Chinese food and and I'm, you know, assuming the person there speaks Chinese and all of a sudden you start ordering in Mandarin. Like, can you imagine how cool that would be? I mean, that'd be like if God just gave everybody Rolexes and they all showed up at church. You're like, man, I'm wearing my Rolex to church. Like this is super Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: cool. Like I could understand, like if you have that gift, that's a super cool gift. Like I could see people wanting to like show it off. But and and that's probably what was going on is probably the reason why Paul had to tell everybody, hey guys, like let's keep it to just a couple people. And then also like if we're gonna have mixed company, let's like, you know, let's be cognizant that people are gonna come in here and You know, they they speak whatever Aramaic or whatever you know, whatever Greek, whatever, you know, if he's talking to the Corinthians, I'm assuming they speak Greek. And if you guys are over here, you know, speaking, you know, I don't know, Turkish or Arabic or whatever, like they're gonna, they're gonna be, you know, wondering what's going on here. Like they're Pj Verdin: Yeah. Well Randy: probably just so excited about their gift, right? Because it's such a cool thing. They had to put some limits around it. Pj Verdin: But but here here's another thing, going back to again the the origins of this this new way of doing it. How funny is it that you know I I think it it was I I was reading some a little bit more. so whenever this this thing happened for the first time, I just saw this lady's name. give me one second. She so she's the one who who basically had this happen. So it says that basically I think t Parham had preached on let's see, several days after prayer and worship was held at New Year's Eve watch night service at Bethel on December 31st, 1900. The next evening, January 1st, 1901, they also held a worship service. And it was that evening that Agnes Osman felt impressed to ask to be prayed for, to receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit immediately after being prayed for, she began to speak in what they referred to as tongues. Speaking in what they believed was a known language, Chinese. So this happens, and instead of just sitting here in church being like, you know what, we could all speak Chinese, and this means that I got the Holy Spirit with me. It's awesome. They literally went to the mission field and said, Well, if I can speak Chinese, I'm going to China so I can tell people in China about this word of God. They didn't they didn't Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: just sit with it in their church and say, You don't speak Chinese? This spirit didn't teach you how to speak Chinese. Yes. Yeah, well, second rate Christian, second class Christian. I got the Holy Spirit teaching me how to speak Chinese. They didn't do that. But what do we see? It deviation further, further and further as as time goes Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: by. I mean, they've had a hundred and twenty years to just say, Hey, you know what? Listen, we got we got the VIP section where we we speak in tongues on this side, and if y'all don't do it, sorry for your luck, you know? Randy: Yeah. A hundred and twenty years of man learning from man, learning from man, learning from man, instead of learning from the word of God, and misinterpreting and misunderstanding and misconstruing what is actually being, you know, communicated in the word of God. Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Yep. Randy: Yeah. Well well, hey man, I do wanna ask you one question though. Do you think Adam and Eve ever spoke in tongues? Pj Verdin: No, no. Yeah, and and it's fun well, no. I hold up. But before Randy: Probably not, right? What do you think they spoke in? Pj Verdin: before we go go to that, going 'cause you just reminded me, you know, because I'm sure they they probably spoke to their their fair share of of sons of God or angels or however you wanna classify them. But Randy: Sure, sure. Pj Verdin: but here's here's a funny thing, man, going back to what we're talking about, whether you you speak with the you know, you're speaking in the tongues of men or you're speaking in the tongues of angels, You know, if you recall in scripture, is there ever a time where an angel c goes and delivers a message to somebody and they're Man, I I don't know what you're saying. You're speaking in a language I don't understand. No, not never. He the the message was Randy: True, true. Pj Verdin: you know what I mean? So, anyways, but yeah, Adam and Eve, man, so Randy: Well you well, you ruined a perfectly good segue, so I'll just throw that out there so everyone could Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: understand what the the nice segue that I I laid out there. But it's all right. It's okay. It's okay, P. It's okay. Pj Verdin: Yeah. You listen, you threw up the alley oop I missed the dunk, man. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. But Randy: You threw Yeah, it was like a one-handed tomahawk slam and you like hit the backboard and it bounced off. Anyway, what so so so what do you think about that? What it what what about Adam and Eve? What do they speak? Pj Verdin: So man, here here's here yeah, I I'm sure that they they spoke whatever they spoke it was understood. You know what I mean? Is is all I know. But but well Randy: You're like, I don't care what language they were talking, but I'm sure that they understood the langu like the angels and the Pj Verdin: No. Randy: angels understood them and there was no gibberish language being spoken. Pj Verdin: And and the yeah, listen, they were they they even cross communicated between species back then. He's talking to a snake, you know we can't even we can't even understand each other and she gotta she talked to Randy: That's true. That's true. Yeah. Pj Verdin: a snake. Her and a snake smoke the same language. But no right, but you Randy: Even if you believe it was really a snake, then yes. Well, the the tradition is that they were speaking Hebrew. So the traditional answer is Hebrew. So Pj Verdin: There you go. Randy: it says in Jewish and later Christian tradition, Adam and Eve were often believed to have spoken Hebrew. The idea being that Hebrew was her ma humanity's original language before the Tower of Babel. And they get that in part because Adam's name, Adam's naming of Eve. Hebrew-ish man and ishash woman form a wordplay in Genesis 223. And I guess it says it it also connects with She living life and some rabbinic traditions teach therefore treated Hebrew as a holy tongue spoken from creation. So Pj Verdin: Right. Right. That checks out. I mean Randy: yeah, I mean it makes sense to me that that's probably the case. And so if if If if the Jewish tradition, the Hebrew tradition is that God who made man to fellowship with and communicate with, made them speaking Hebrew, then probably makes sense that God Himself spoke to them in Hebrew. And Pj Verdin: Right. Yeah, that Randy: the angels who we know spoke to them probably spoke to them in Hebrew. So I think that's where you get this tradition that, like There is a language of angels. The angels speak this language. So when we're gonna get together in our synagogue and we're gonna pray our prayers and we're gonna read our scrolls, guess what language we're gonna do it in? We're gonna do it in Hebrew. Pj Verdin: Well well but but even I would say this like whenever the angel appears to talk to Mary and tells her that she's gonna have a kid, I I doubt, you know, being you know, the the class that she was, she wasn't like and she was a woman, I doubt that she spoke Hebrew, but she still understood what the angel was telling her. You know what I mean? She responds, she has a conversation with this angel, you know what I mean? So anytime Randy: Uh-huh. Pj Verdin: you see an angel come down and talk to somebody, whether I I do believe and and that that goes to the point that Jewish people the very much held the Hebrew language as the language of God, which is which is what we've talked about before. When whenever Randy: Yeah. Right. Right. Pj Verdin: they would teach people to pray in in Hebrew and stuff like that, they would be able to recite things they had no idea what they were saying. So they were uttering mysteries to themselves, even though it was a spoken language and it was it was the language of God. So we Randy: Yes. Yes. And and and don't and don't hear what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that the angels only speak Hebrew. I definitely Pj Verdin: Right, right, right. Randy: do believe they speak they could speak any language. I believe Pj Verdin: They yeah, they yeah. Randy: I believe that they could speak whatever language. I think that, you know, we s yeah, you're 100% right. If if they you know if they spoke to Mary, you know, and and she was speaking Aramaic, you know, I don't know if she was speaking Aramaic, but I'm gonna assume that was a common tongue in Jesus' day. If they spoke to Mary. They probably spoke to her in Aramaic or there was some sort of miraculous interpretation. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Well and and let me just beans we're bringing up Mary, let me just talk about this other side of the coin, right? Because you know, Parham and and these guys, whenever they're trying to bring this back up in the early nineteen hundreds, or or or talking about, well, this is the evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit. But you know what's funny? There's multiple times in scripture, whenever you see people filled with the Holy Spirit, that it doesn't say anything about them having this this thing about speaking gibberish or whatever. I think about this. Whenever whenever Mary goes to meet John the Baptist's mom, you know what I mean? And and and it says that, you know, she was filled with the Holy Spirit. And and, you know, like John even re was rejoicing in her stomach hearing Mary's voice. Like it explicitly says she was filled, John the Baptist's mom was filled with the Holy Spirit. You know what I mean? So then her and Mary sitting there having this conversation, it's not like she just started flipping out. And speaking in this other language that Mary didn't understand and was my gosh, what's going on here? You know what I mean? That didn't happen. So, so my I I guess the the point I I I'm I'm making is even on the other side of that coin, in scripture biblically, whenever we see times where people are filled with the Holy Spirit, you don't see this this synonymous thing of them speaking in tongues. You know what I mean? Because a lot of times that's what happens. People makes those two things Randy: Yeah, I mean y yeah. Pj Verdin: synonymous. if if you're spilled with the Holy Spirit, you're probably speaking in tongues. And if you speak in tongues, it's c only 'cause you're spilled with the Holy Spirit. You know what I mean? Randy: Yeah, I mean, speaking in tongues or other languages is one of the things that you see happen when people have the Holy Spirit, not the only thing, right? As if the two things are synonymous. You see, you know, people like Zachariah prophesying, right? You Pj Verdin: Yes. Randy: see Peter preaching boldly when he's filled with the Holy Spirit. You see Samson like, you know, get strong and like rip, you know, push the pillars aside and kill a bunch of Philistines and Pj Verdin: Filled with the Holy Spirit. Yep. Randy: You see all sorts of different things happen when people are when the spirit of God comes upon them or they're filled with Pj Verdin: Yes. Randy: the Holy Spirit or however you want to say it, to say that the two things are synonymous, which goes back to did Adam Adam and Eve ever get filled with the Spirit? And if not, according to this theology, what would that mean Pj Verdin: Well I I would say Randy: about them? Pj Verdin: I would say they got unfilled with the spirit. You know what I mean? I well Randy: Unfilled with the spirit. What do you mean by that? Pj Verdin: well, I mean, I I think that they very much had the spirit of God inside of them and then it left because they they fell, you know what I mean? Like emptied out. Yep. Randy: They got emptied out. Yep. They were emptied out of the spirit. Pj Verdin: A hundred percent. But so, anyways, speaking of Adam and Eve, man, I had this crazy thought, you know what I mean? Because you know Randy: I've been queuing it up for about ten minutes now, this crazy thought of yours. I've been I've been the ball keeps falling off. I keep putting it back on the on the on the T and then it just falls off again and then yeah. What what do you got? Pj Verdin: Yeah, yeah. Sorry. Sorry. So so man, I I was just thinking about, you know, Adam and Eve and I was thinking about, you know, how we're saved by grace through faith and in the whole nine and and the finished work of Jesus. Yeah, 'cause I spent a lot of time, you know, really thinking about the finished work of Jesus and appreciating that. But I was I was thinking about Adam and Eve, man, and I was like, you know, I would I would assume that they're gonna be in in heaven and I'll I'll get to talk to them one day and and you know, kind of go through this whole fall thing. But I'm like, you know, the the crazy concept. For me, it's like they they didn't need faith. Adam and Eve literally walked and talked, communed with God face to face personally. You know what I mean? And so, you know, I and I I would think that, you know, without, you know, a lot so many things we just kind of brush over. I would think that everybody's like, yeah, you know, Adam and Eve is gonna be in heaven because like that's what God has planned and what this, that, the other. But it's like, man, they Randy: Some people might say the opposite. They might say they're gonna be in hell because they cause sin to enter the world and all the pain and suffering that comes along with it. Pj Verdin: Maybe. I I don't know man. I guess I I've always just assumed that they were gonna be there and Yeah, yeah. Randy: I could see both sides of that argument. I could see the one side that says, like, you know, God created them for a special purpose. Yes, they messed up, but they, you know, were forgiven just like the rest of us were forgiven. they were saved Pj Verdin: Yeah, man. Well Randy: the same way Abraham was saved, which was to have faith looking forward versus our faith, which is looking backwards. Pj Verdin: Yeah, man. And and yeah, that is I mean, I guess, you know, you always hear the joke like, well, how are you gonna know Adam and Eve in heaven? You say, look for the ones without belly buttons, right? Because they were never in a womb, you know, God just formed them anyways. But I but but realistically, Randy: Won't won't. Pj Verdin: yeah, realistically though, I I I just think about it like, man, like I I I see you know, I don't know, I just I've always I've always looked at it from the perspective, but yeah, I can kind of see that because I mean they literally were in the perfect state and fell. I and and w everything Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: since then has been us trying to get us back to the perfect state. So Randy: Well, let me ask you some questions. So you you brought up an interesting, you know, topic, right? So I think this is an interesting thought experiment, honestly, because you know, like I said, I think some people might see Adam and Eve being in heaven. They might see them being saved, and and you know, because forgiveness and faith and other people might think, man, like they're they're look they're the problem. They're the ones who cause all this. They're gonna but but you bring up an even more interesting thought, which is, you know. Did they have faith because they saw God? They walked with God, right? But let's pull on that thread a little bit more because were they the only people to ever see and walk with God? Pj Verdin: No. Not no, no. Randy: No. Who who were some others? Pj Verdin: Enoch walked with God and was not. a Randy: Okay, Enoch walked with God and wasn't. God took him. Pj Verdin: ab Jacob wrestled, you know, God, Randy: Jacob wrestled with God, yep. Pj Verdin: you know, fit like physically wrestled with them. Randy: Physically, yep. Pj Verdin: Abraham saw him, talked to him, spoke to Moses. Yeah. Randy: Mm-hmm. He spoke to Moses as one speaks to a friend. Pj Verdin: Right, but I'm I'm talking about like physically, you know what I mean? Like, it but I mean Well, I mean, well Randy: Those souls sounded physical to me. Pj Verdin: well, I mean, so I I'm whenever I guess I think about Moses, he spoke to him first in a burning bush, then he spoke to him in in from the mountain in like a a a cloud of fire. Randy: Wh where did he speak wh where's the verse where he talks about the burning bush? Do you know where that's at? Pj Verdin: exodus in the beginning. I don't know. I I don't know off the top of my head. I don't. but yeah, so you Randy: Let me let's just let's just let's just look it up real quick. I just want to make a point on this on this one. so it's Exodus three, two. It says the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. A Pj Verdin: Mm-hmm. Randy: lot of people just think of a burning bush, but the Bible actually says the angel of the Lord appeared in that bush. Pj Verdin: And just for context, that's not the only place that it mentions the angel of the Lord. Like I just said, whenever Jacob wrestled with God, it it's it describes him as the angel of the Lord as well. Randy: I and and and and that's a whole deeper study, but s a lot of scholars s would say that the angel of the Lord was a precarnated version of Jesus. Pj Verdin: Is God. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Is God. Yeah. G basically yeah, Jesus. And so that's 'cause there there's another there's another s scripture where man who sorry. Randy: But but my point was though, Adam and Eve weren't the only ones who actually walked with the physical God. And Pj Verdin: Right, right. Randy: so and so if Moses was saved through faith, if Abraham was saved through faith, if Adam and Eve in fact were saved, it would have had to been through faith too. So I wouldn't say that you don't have to have faith just because you might have seen God. Pj Verdin: Right, I I see what you're saying. Well and and yeah, I mean it's you know, I I mean, I think that ultimately either way, right? I I guess maybe that's part of why I believe that they are in you know, are are in heaven is is because man, we we see God's grace and and and his forgiveness and his faithfulness to us and and and basically the redemption that he has planned. And and yeah, so for me it's like, man, if we're if we could just be saved just or on just faith alone. Like, I mean, imagine just these people know a hundred percent, like, man, I I messed up and I'm sorry, God. Well Randy: Yeah, yeah. Pj Verdin: and and and and I guess i if if you wanna chase this down, this is how I arrived at that thought. I arrived at Adam and Eve and being like, well man, they saw face they saw God face to face and they still chose to do the wrong thing. Because I I was actually talking to someone And and I said, you know what? I said, I feel like this is a thought that would probably maybe upset some believers. but but it it would make my heart rejoice. I said, you know, I would me as a believer, I know that that God's heart is that no one would go to hell. I said, Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: so you know what? I I would be perfectly okay with and and this is not me claiming that this is what happened or there's it. I'm just saying, just this is playing what ifs or whatever. I said, you know, I would have no problem if this is the way it worked. You live this life and you die and and whatever. And no matter what, no matter how that went, no matter how that shook out, if at the end of it all you stood before God and He's getting ready to judge you, and you you see him physically, you understand who he is, and Right then you have one one last opportunity to either choose him or not, knowing that he actually exists, whether you believed him in in you believed in him your whole life or you rejected him your whole your whole life thinking that he didn't exist, or you just maybe never even had an opportunity to know him at all. I said Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: to me, if if he offered everybody that one last choice in his face, then I I'd be okay with that. I think that, you know, it less people would end up in hell. And and the person I was talking to was like, well. No w nobody would probably end up in hell. Who's gonna see God face to face and still not choose him? And I was like, Well, Adam and Eve walked and talked with God and still cho you know, chose to not believe him or whatever, or accept what he said to to be accurate. So, you know, that's kind of how this this little thing played out. And and so yeah, I and then I I just, you know, it kind of led off from there. I was like, Well dang, if yeah, Adam and Eve and and you bring up even more people that that I I guess they they walked with God but they also chose God. But I I was saw God face to face, but I'm thinking Adam and Eve was literally in this perfect state. Walked with God, talked with God, like just you know, it was just perfect and still chose to do wrong. So the idea that that somebody could stand in the face of God, understanding that He is real in His all all his his his just glory and magnificence. And he's like, Okay, listen, you know, there there this is this is gonna be the determining factor of your eternal fate. Like do you do you basically accept me or not and and and I I think that, you know, I I would be okay with Randy: Well, I maybe in and maybe that's where the you know, that final temptation after the thousand years of like, you know, the millennial kingdom talked about in Revelation comes into play, right? Because it says that, you know, Satan's gonna be bound for a thousand years, it's gonna be like heaven on earth, and then he's gonna be released one more time to tempt the nations. And man, some people are gonna be tempted and they're gonna they're gonna do exactly what you just said. They're gonna be people who maybe live in this perfect Paradise, like have access to God and see God and know that He's real and still, you know, are tempted and and fall away. So so who knows? Maybe there is some element Pj Verdin: Well. Randy: of that built in. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Well, and I mean, and we do see it in scripture. I mean, we see, you know, the nation of Israel, you know, they they get led out of Egypt after witnessing firsthand all these plagues that that show the the existence of God. They they have the pillar of fire, you know, and and this the they they see this thing, they watch the the r Red Sea part and you know, God provides man in the w like they see the evidence of God all the time and they still like, hey What about that golden capital? Let's let's make that up. You know what I mean? Like it's so Randy: Right, right. Pj Verdin: I mean, I don't I don't know, man. It's it's an interesting thought for sure. Randy: Yeah, it it is interesting thoughts. And yeah, I mean, to me, I guess, you know, the way I would answer that question is if if Adam and Eve are saved, and again, I'm not a person who would tell anyone they're saved or not saved. that's between you and God. But it I would say it's very possible they are saved, probably likely. And it would be the same way anyone else would be saved by faith, by having faith, by by believing the promises of God. When when they sin, God gave them the promise, He gave the first prophecy. Of the Messiah when he when he when he talked about you know the the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent. They had to believe that. And I think they did believe that, which is you know why, you know, they named who was it, Seth, Seth, right? Because they they thought he was the one that God was talking about. So I see Pj Verdin: Yes, that yes, that right. Right. Randy: evidence that they did believe, and we know that that's what saves us. It's faith that saves us, you know, by faith. Through grace, they had to believe. And I shared this, you know, in the past, but I'll say it again. What God's been teaching me personally this year, this whole year, is that belief is not just enough. You have to go beyond just believing and you have to keep believing. It's not just a one-time thing. And it doesn't matter whether you're trying to get into better physical sh shape or you're trying to achieve some sort of business goal and objective. Or you're trying to, you know, you know, you improve in your your your your growth and your spiritual walk. Like it's not just enough to just believe. Peter believed when he got out of the out of the boat, but he stopped believing and so he started to sink. You got to keep believing. And so that's something I've been personally learning. And I think that that applies to, you know, to to Adam and Eve, to Abraham, Moses, you know, looking forward, and it applies to us looking backwards. Like You gotta keep believing, man. You gotta believe, and then you gotta keep believing because if you if you if not, I mean, look, you know, everything, everything of value is uphill. That means that we're not nothing comes easy. Not not your relationships, whether it's whether it's with your friends or your family or God, not your career goals and objectives, not your business goals and nothing of value comes easy. Everything Is uphill. Everything worthwhile is uphill. That's a John Maxwell Colt. And I believe it. And so, what does that mean? It means that, like, we got to keep trying. We do hard things today so we could do harder things tomorrow, not so we could do easier things tomorrow. So we could do even harder things tomorrow. Navy SEALs go through the intense training that they go through because they're going to probably face even more intense situations out there when their lives are really on the line, right? When there's not instructors there to pull them out of the water. So we can't just believe that one time and think it's good enough. You know, I believed in myself when I started my diet, but I stopped believing in myself when I ate that twinkie. No, not good enough. Pj Verdin: Well and that's that's a that's a ongoing recurring theme that you see in the Bible, right? So like what would people would would think about like well the sanctification process, like well, listen, you're you're sanctified already completely and it's ongoing. It's it's it's two and one. It's the same thing. Like you you're as sanctified as you're going to be, as as far as positionally, like you know, in in in Christ, we're we're we're sanctified. We're as sanctified as we're gonna be. Now the process of our behavior matching that the internal change is a process, right? So you're you're yeah, you've you've been sanctified, but it's an ongoing thing. Kind of like you said, you you you started believing. Well you gotta keep believing, right? You you gotta make sure that that that belief that you have matches the the initial investment that you make and and like you're you're you're maintaining that belief. In the same way it's like, okay, well, I know that that Jesus has sanctified my my my soul, but I need to get my behavior in line and sanctified with with the the sanctification process that that he's already completed as far as, you know, my my righteousness is concerned. Right. So it's like you see these things multiple times. Or or or what what's that what's that quote that they have out there? the the the the kingdom of of of God is here now but not yet or whatever. You know what I mean? It's like It you you you you just see these these things where it's like, man, realistically, yeah, there's a a lot of that that reoccurring consistency that we see throughout throughout scripture. And and I think that that's where you get a lot of those those those verses that'll tell you, you know, about enduring to the end or finishing the race or or things of that nature. You know what I mean? Because yeah, I I I mean I there's there's a lot of things that that have already been, you know, for sure completed. That doesn't mean we we just you know, we don't we don't still have things that we we can do to get more in alignment with with already the internal changes, you know what I mean? Randy: Right. Yeah, and and and don't hear what I'm not saying. I I'm not saying it's a salvation issue. Like for me, it's it's you know, I'm I'm saved because I was I died and I've been born again, and that's why I'm saved. But Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Randy: I want to I have to keep believing, otherwise I can't keep growing. I can't Pj Verdin: Right, right. Randy: keep maturing. I can't keep, you know, I can't keep getting better and better as a person, as a believer, as a you know, father, husband, brother. I can't do any of those things. Unless I keep believing. Whatever it is I want to accomplish, I gotta do, I gotta do it through faith and through believing. And that and that's and that's kind of where I was going. It's not to me, it's not a salvation Pj Verdin: I got you. Randy: issue. It's more of just like a growth issue. And and it's something that I've been learning a lot this year. And, you know, personally I see, like I said, I see it tied to our faith in but it cause it's our faith in Jesus that that's where we start believing, but we gotta keep on believing. Pj Verdin: Yeah, for sure. Journey style. But Randy: That's right. That's right. That's what that's why that song is such a powerful song, man, because it resonates Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: so so so powerfully with so many people. Pj Verdin: Yep. And and and you know, I I see this whole thing, you know, kind of like alluding back to to what you said in the very beginning, brother, where you've you've kind of seen, you know, my position on on tongues just change and and and grow and and and and it's it's almost become it's almost done a one eighty and and I believe that that's exactly because of you know Paul saying, you know, the renew continual renewing of our minds, right? Like, you know, the the more the more I try to get The way I think and the way I I I approach things in line with the spirit instead of just being like, Man, listen, I I love people who do this and I don't want to step on their toes and say, well, you know what, this is not right. But then I'm like, Okay, well, i i if if if you know the spirit that that lives inside me, you know, will not let it go and it's like, Man, you you know better, you know, and I pray about it and I'm like, That's not right. And then these things I I I see these things, you know, in Just right there in front of me and I'm like, Man, listen, you know what? I don't wanna I don't wanna debate this. I just I I I I point him in the r in the right direction. I say, Listen, you know what? Go go do some it go do some digging for yourself. Pray about it and and and you don't ever have to tell me whether you did it or not, but that's the best that I can do. I won't I you know, l lovingly, I I'm Randy: Right, right. Pj Verdin: not I'm not saying, Hey man, whatever. And and and then I hope that that's basically what happens here. I hope if nothing else you you you hear, you know Just, you know, Charles Fox Parham and just do some research and, you know, you look into tongues and and you know how how a lot of this stuff got started, outside of the Bible, because we know where it got started in the Bible, but how much it's deviated from that point. And man, I pray that the Holy Spirit leads you to where he has planned for you in the time that he has planned for you to be there. That's it. Randy: All right, brother. Well, I think that just about does it for this episode. What do you think? Pj Verdin: Yes, sir. Randy: All right, well, hopefully now everybody knows who Mr. Parham is, or at least they got the name so they could do their own research. With that, I just want to say thank you all so much for liking, following, subscribing to the show. And before you go, make sure you let us know what you think in the comments down below. God bless. Pj Verdin: God bless.