Latest / Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections / Networking Unleashed: An Interview with Evan Siegel and Michael A Forman, Professional Speaker

Transcript

Networking Unleashed: An Interview with Evan Siegel and Michael A Forman, Professional Speaker · Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections

• 0:16
  Welcome to Networking Unleashed, Building Profitable
• 0:19
  Connections. I'm your host, Michael Foreman,
• 0:22
  and today we're talking about something every
• 0:25
  leader eventually faces. What happens to your
• 0:28
  credibility when you get it wrong? My guest combines
• 0:32
  thought leadership and relationship building
• 0:35
  to open doors with executives, building programs
• 0:39
  inside major organizations, and creating business
• 0:44
  opportunities. But we're also digging into what
• 0:47
  happened when an AI pilot failed and what it
• 0:51
  took to rebuild trust afterwards. I'll get it,
• 0:54
  I promise. Because your network isn't tested
• 0:57
  when everything goes right, it's tested when
• 1:04
  it doesn't. There we go. I finally got through
• 1:07
  that. Not bad. All right. So I'd like to introduce
• 1:10
  to the podcast, Evan Siegel. He is a professional
• 1:13
  in this, and I would love to just the cliff notes
• 1:17
  of how you got where you are today. Yeah, sure,
• 1:20
  Michael. First of all, thanks for having me on
• 1:22
  the podcast. And I'll give you a breadcrumb.
• 1:25
  Networking, my network, directly tied to every
• 1:29
  job I got. That's a breadcrumb for you to follow
• 1:31
  up on. So coming out of college, I was fortunate
• 1:34
  enough to land a very coveted job. I was an associate
• 1:37
  consultant at Bain & Company, the strategic consulting
• 1:41
  firm. Great first experience. I grew up in an
• 1:45
  entrepreneurial environment. My dad and my uncle
• 1:48
  worked in the garden center that my grandparents
• 1:50
  started in Minneapolis. And so I always had this
• 1:54
  entrepreneurial bug burning in me. And I left
• 1:58
  after two years and did something that actually
• 2:00
  people talked about at the consulting firm, very
• 2:03
  unusual. I started a painting company. It is
• 2:07
  something, a residential painting company, something
• 2:09
  that I was a little bit ahead of my time because
• 2:11
  Harvard Business School grads now, the hot thing
• 2:14
  to go do is go into mom and pop industries and
• 2:16
  try to roll it up and build professionalism.
• 2:19
  That's exactly what we were trying to do. We
• 2:21
  grew it. It was an Inc. 500 company, one of the
• 2:24
  fastest growing companies in America in the early
• 2:27
  90s, but super hard. You're doing the manufacturing
• 2:31
  process in front of the customer. I got burned
• 2:34
  out because we had 70 customers at any time,
• 2:37
  300 employees. So I came out to the West Coast
• 2:40
  to go to graduate school. Out of there, I went
• 2:43
  back into consulting, but a different flavor,
• 2:46
  not strategy, more implementation consulting.
• 2:49
  Did super interesting things like re -engineered
• 2:52
  the environmental cleanup at Hanford, which is
• 2:55
  a nuclear waste site up in Washington state.
• 3:00
  Incredibly interesting. We shortened the timeframe
• 3:02
  to clean up a plant there by four years. Then
• 3:05
  typical story of consultants had kids, wanted
• 3:07
  to see them more. And so I left consulting and
• 3:11
  went into industry and actually landed a job
• 3:14
  in a place I really liked, Wells Fargo. I was
• 3:16
  there for 16 years. I did two things. I worked
• 3:20
  on customer experience strategy across the entire
• 3:24
  enterprise. And at a mega bank, everything is
• 3:27
  mega sized. So we were touching 70 million customers,
• 3:30
  the work that I was doing, trying to improve
• 3:33
  the customer experience. Then I transitioned
• 3:36
  to the leadership team of the 10 ,000 person
• 3:38
  contact center, where I worked on special projects,
• 3:41
  marketing, sales, and customer experience. And
• 3:45
  then from there, I landed to where I am now,
• 3:47
  which is at eGain, where the leading knowledge
• 3:49
  management provider. And now I work with companies,
• 3:53
  primarily banks and credit unions to improve
• 3:56
  their customer experience and make them AI ready.
• 3:59
  So not a straight and narrow path, but I don't
• 4:02
  think many people have a straight and narrow
• 4:04
  path. I've wandered and I've been super fortunate
• 4:07
  that I've enjoyed every role and I've learned
• 4:09
  a lot every step along the way. Yeah, there is
• 4:12
  nobody that I've talked to and I've done. over
• 4:15
  200 of these has a straight path to where they
• 4:18
  are. They all took left hooks, right hooks, left
• 4:22
  turns, right turns, but they all managed to get
• 4:25
  where they are. And everybody seems to be happy
• 4:27
  with where they are. So it's really interesting.
• 4:31
  And back to that breadcrumb right in the beginning,
• 4:33
  if everybody remembers that networking is the
• 4:37
  lifeblood of business, then everything will be
• 4:41
  all right. because everything comes down to it,
• 4:43
  whether it's video, whether it's in person, whatever
• 4:46
  have you. It's the customer service. It's the
• 4:49
  person -to -person contact. And that's what I
• 4:52
  go across the country talking about. Okay, so
• 4:55
  thought leadership can attract attention, but
• 4:59
  relationships create trust. Where does that thought
• 5:03
  leadership and genuine relationship building
• 5:06
  begin? So this is a great question and stuff
• 5:10
  that I'm going really deep on right now. I believe,
• 5:13
  and I'll be curious to get your take on it after
• 5:16
  I finish. I believe that LinkedIn is the networking
• 5:20
  turbocharger of the modern day. So the way I'm
• 5:24
  using it with great effect is consider myself
• 5:27
  an evangelist. One of the things I'm working
• 5:30
  on now is from my days in banking, I see where
• 5:33
  banks, credit unions, community banks, where
• 5:36
  they drop the ball. on customer experience and
• 5:40
  advice and guidance. So I'm an evangelist on
• 5:43
  this point. I have a strong viewpoint, which
• 5:46
  by the way, many agree with. And that viewpoint
• 5:48
  also aligns with what eGain does. We have solutions
• 5:52
  that solve some of those problems. So what I
• 5:56
  am doing on a daily basis, and it's a daily habit,
• 5:59
  and that's what makes it effective, is I go on
• 6:02
  LinkedIn and I make comments on other people's
• 6:05
  posts. where I'm agreeing most of the time, and
• 6:09
  I'm not overly salesy, but I'm getting my messaging
• 6:12
  out, my evangelism out, what's wrong with sales,
• 6:17
  and I subtly suggest the solution, again, not
• 6:21
  to be overly salesy. And then I use that to connect
• 6:24
  with people, and so I'm dramatically growing
• 6:26
  my network. Every time I make one of these comments,
• 6:29
  it's building the brand of myself, my evangelist
• 6:32
  message, and eGain's message. And then on rare
• 6:37
  occasions where I've really had a mind meld with
• 6:40
  someone, I'll make a more aggressive follow -up
• 6:42
  to see if they'll take a meeting to share ideas
• 6:45
  and dig a little deeper into their pain to see
• 6:48
  if eGain can help solve their issue. And again,
• 6:51
  I know you talk in your podcast here about networking
• 6:55
  events. They're not every day, but you can go
• 6:57
  on LinkedIn every day, make connections, have
• 7:00
  conversations with people. And it makes your
• 7:03
  scope instead of local, it makes it national.
• 7:07
  I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.
• 7:10
  LinkedIn, as social media goes, LinkedIn is for
• 7:13
  business. And as long as you treat it that way
• 7:16
  from your profile on to answering other people's
• 7:20
  posts. And if you see my posts, I post once or
• 7:24
  twice a day. And I go in and I comment because
• 7:28
  that means more to the algorithms that you comment.
• 7:33
  with something that you're responding to, whatever.
• 7:35
  So that really builds up. But as you do, I am
• 7:42
  energetic about networking, that it comes out
• 7:47
  in everything that I say and do. And that's what
• 7:49
  happens when people respond to what I post. And
• 7:53
  I just post slices of podcasts and things like
• 7:56
  that. But then I have a networking meeting. I
• 7:59
  have networking shows. I produce network business
• 8:02
  networking expos. So I get the comments. So it
• 8:06
  all goes throughout. But coming back to your
• 8:09
  point. Can I just jump in? I just want to add
• 8:11
  one thing that's really powerful about LinkedIn.
• 8:13
  What I'm noticing is, so there's a particular
• 8:16
  audience I'm targeting, community bank, regional
• 8:19
  bank, and credit union executives. Now, this
• 8:23
  is a commercial for LinkedIn, but I'm just a
• 8:24
  big fan at the moment. Now, in the connection
• 8:28
  suggested request, the algorithm knows who I
• 8:31
  like, and it's making recommendations that are
• 8:35
  really awesome. And it makes the work easier,
• 8:38
  right? So I'm able to grow the network in exactly
• 8:40
  my target audience because the algorithm is spotting
• 8:44
  that and helping me there. And to your point,
• 8:46
  I do exactly what you do as well. One -on -one
• 8:48
  comments. And then a weekly, I just do a weekly
• 8:51
  post that's mostly on brand, but for the company
• 8:54
  and for what I'm trying to do. But every once
• 8:56
  in a while, you're trying to build your personal
• 8:58
  brand as well. So I went backpacking with my
• 9:01
  kids a couple of weeks ago up in Yosemite, posted
• 9:04
  about that. Tons of reactions, out of character.
• 9:07
  But again, out of that grew a few more people
• 9:10
  that just say, hey, this guy's a backpacker.
• 9:12
  I'm a backpacker. So you never know what comment
• 9:15
  leads to network growth. Absolutely. And you
• 9:20
  hit on the key to LinkedIn networking. You can
• 9:24
  post what you do for business, but once a week
• 9:28
  or so, put in something personal, something that
• 9:31
  you've done. And you'll be surprised because
• 9:34
  I get much more viewership from that than I do
• 9:40
  over business. So it's really strange how it
• 9:42
  all works out. When you're trying to build relationships,
• 9:46
  With banks and credit union executives, what
• 9:49
  earns access to the room? And what earns the
• 9:55
  right to stay in the conversation? Yeah, it's
• 9:59
  two things. I have a resume that builds credibility.
• 10:05
  What's on that resume? It's strategy consulting
• 10:08
  at big firms, senior executive at a major bank,
• 10:11
  a mega bank. And then a viewpoint. And I think
• 10:14
  that third thing is something that anyone can
• 10:17
  develop. Anyone can have a viewpoint in their
• 10:19
  industry on what it takes to improve that industry.
• 10:23
  And a voice and a viewpoint is something people
• 10:26
  will listen to and they'll want to follow up
• 10:28
  on. So I think it's just those three things.
• 10:31
  And there are other little tricks and trades.
• 10:33
  Again, going back to LinkedIn, one of the things
• 10:36
  I'll... prioritize when I'm trying to grow my
• 10:38
  network is anyone. Wells Fargo had 275 ,000 people
• 10:42
  working there at any given time. There are a
• 10:45
  lot of alums out there in the business world.
• 10:48
  And so I will prioritize trying to link up or
• 10:51
  connect with people from the alma mater of employer
• 10:54
  because you just have a natural affinity. And
• 10:57
  by the way, everyone has those connections, those
• 11:01
  tribal affiliations. AI has made it easier than
• 11:05
  ever to appear knowledgeable. Has that made earned
• 11:10
  credibility more valuable than visibility? So
• 11:16
  I'm going to answer it at a company level because
• 11:18
  that's where eGain operates. Trusted answers
• 11:22
  are the stock and trade of any brand's worth.
• 11:28
  Let me just give you a story of where that falls
• 11:31
  off. This just happened to me the other day.
• 11:32
  I called one of the mega investment firms. I
• 11:36
  wrote a check to the State Tax Authority of California
• 11:39
  off of a fund I have. Check hasn't cashed. I
• 11:43
  asked at the end of the customer service call,
• 11:45
  I asked the gentleman, hey, what kind of fraud
• 11:47
  protection does your firm offer if this check
• 11:52
  falls into the wrong hands? He gave a 2x wrong
• 11:56
  answer. Now I know enough about financial services
• 11:59
  to know what was wrong. He said, you're FDIC
• 12:02
  protected. That has nothing to do with fraud.
• 12:05
  That has to do if the financial institution goes
• 12:07
  out of business. And I can't remember the other
• 12:10
  thing he said that was incorrect in his answer.
• 12:12
  But if you multiply that times thousands of the
• 12:16
  number of calls that go into that organization's
• 12:18
  call centers, you're giving people bad guidance.
• 12:20
  And that's a terrible experience. So my viewpoint
• 12:24
  is. banks, credit unions, any firm customer facing,
• 12:28
  you need to really invest heavily in getting
• 12:31
  those answers right. At scale, it's a really
• 12:34
  difficult problem to solve. And you need to nowadays
• 12:38
  with AI, which opens up a whole bunch of new
• 12:41
  avenues of what you can do, you need to tend
• 12:43
  to the infrastructure, get the sort of the AI
• 12:46
  infrastructure right. So I don't know if that's
• 12:48
  not necessarily around networking per se, but
• 12:51
  it's if you're an executive in a company that
• 12:53
  has Answers being given to customers, these are
• 12:56
  the questions you need to be addressing, critical
• 12:58
  to how you get AI right. It all boils down to
• 13:03
  the customer experience. And if you give erroneous
• 13:07
  answers, that's going to really knock your customer
• 13:11
  experience down to a level that you don't want
• 13:14
  to be. So it all goes for that customer experience.
• 13:17
  That's very good. You experienced a failed AI
• 13:21
  pilot. What did that teach you about leadership
• 13:24
  when your expertise, judgment, and credibility
• 13:27
  is suddenly questioned? Yeah, so it's more our
• 13:32
  new clients. We come in after they've done that.
• 13:35
  So I've seen it. I've seen the movie multiple
• 13:37
  times. And we work with them to get the train
• 13:43
  on the right track. There's so many lessons in
• 13:46
  something like that. One is you need to go and
• 13:51
  communicate to all the stakeholders in your organization.
• 13:53
  What are you doing to fix the train, to fix the
• 13:58
  process? Step one, you need to lay out the plan.
• 14:02
  Step two, you need to build credibility slowly.
• 14:06
  So typically people will start slow, a pilot,
• 14:10
  phased implementation with the new solution to
• 14:13
  show that this time you're going to get it right.
• 14:16
  You need to have your baseline metrics solidly
• 14:20
  in place so you can show improvement off of the
• 14:22
  baseline. And then once you've got, under a controlled
• 14:27
  example, success at a very high level to the
• 14:30
  level you set and have communicated to your executives,
• 14:33
  then you start to roll it out. You keep an eagle
• 14:37
  eye on those key metrics, correct answers, handle
• 14:40
  time if it's a call center, first contact resolution
• 14:42
  if it's a call center. And anytime there's any
• 14:46
  issues, you and your team need to dive in. What
• 14:49
  went wrong? Why was that answer incorrect? And
• 14:52
  then with tools like what my company sells, what
• 14:55
  eGain sells, we have metrics on what were the
• 14:58
  top questions that were unable to be answered,
• 15:01
  and then you can fill in the gaps and put in
• 15:04
  place. the policies, procedures, knowledge to
• 15:07
  make sure those answers get right. So that's
• 15:09
  some detailed steps, but the bottom line is build
• 15:12
  the plan, establish credibility with hard metrics
• 15:15
  over time, convince the executives. And I'd add
• 15:18
  one other piece, over -communicate. Over -communicate
• 15:22
  with the other stakeholders, with the other executives,
• 15:24
  because in the absence of you telling them what's
• 15:28
  going on, they're going to fill it in with that
• 15:30
  bad experience of what they had before. Absolutely.
• 15:35
  And I was going to ask you about that very last
• 15:39
  part, but you answered it without me even asking.
• 15:41
  So it was very good. When something you've championed
• 15:44
  fails publicly, what's the difference between
• 15:47
  defending your reputation and taking ownership
• 15:50
  of the outcome? I think that's a great question.
• 15:55
  I think you have to acknowledge failure. Out
• 15:59
  here in Silicon Valley, where I live and work,
• 16:03
  People talk about failing fast and about it shouldn't
• 16:08
  be a career limiting move. And why is that? Why
• 16:12
  is that a Silicon Valley mantra? It's because
• 16:15
  people in tech are always pushing the envelope.
• 16:18
  They're going to be working with unproven technologies.
• 16:21
  They're going to be working with the change management
• 16:25
  associated with new technologies. In other words,
• 16:28
  the technology may work great, but people may
• 16:30
  not use that technology. So if you are able to
• 16:34
  say, hey, we messed up, here's what we learned,
• 16:37
  here's what we're doing different, it gives you
• 16:39
  credibility. But you need to do it in the organization
• 16:42
  that says failure is not a career limiting move.
• 16:45
  And for some of your listeners who might be operating
• 16:48
  smaller businesses, you're setting the tone of
• 16:51
  the culture for your organization. And if you
• 16:54
  allow failure to be something that is tolerated
• 16:57
  as well, as long as it's learned from and adjusted
• 16:59
  from. You're going to be a winning organization
• 17:01
  that's able to move fast in this AI tech powered
• 17:05
  economy that we're in now. Absolutely. And I
• 17:09
  just had this conversation yesterday, the day
• 17:12
  before yesterday. And for the size of the companies
• 17:15
  that listen to the podcast, they're all between
• 17:18
  one and 10 employees. And that's exactly right.
• 17:24
  But the culture of the company operates from
• 17:27
  the top down. So you dictate the culture of the
• 17:31
  company and whether or not a failure is going
• 17:36
  to break you or make you. And you learn so much
• 17:40
  more by your failures than success that it can
• 17:44
  only drive you forward if you handle it the right
• 17:47
  way. Yep. The postmortem. Postmortem is a valuable
• 17:51
  exercise. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Inside
• 17:55
  a massive organization. influence often matters
• 17:59
  more than authority. How did relationships help
• 18:03
  you build support for a coaching program when
• 18:06
  you couldn't simply order people to participate?
• 18:10
  Yeah, so let me give a little bit of a backstory
• 18:11
  because that's one of the career things I'm most
• 18:14
  proud of. So at Wells Fargo, I built a team of
• 18:18
  financial health coaches in the contact center.
• 18:21
  We coached 75 ,000 people. So again, at something
• 18:25
  like Wells Fargo, the impact is big. The way
• 18:29
  the coaching was around topics such as how do
• 18:31
  you build credit? How do you pay down debt? How
• 18:34
  do you save more? Core sort of financial health
• 18:38
  topics. Getting a big bank to implement something
• 18:43
  new is not easy. And I did this. This was purely,
• 18:48
  it was my idea. And I was the genesis, the guy
• 18:53
  that pushed it and worked across the stakeholders.
• 18:55
  So how did I get it done? Part one was, it was
• 18:59
  an idea that aligned with Wells Fargo's mission.
• 19:02
  At the time, they were talking about, we want
• 19:05
  to help people achieve their financial goals.
• 19:07
  So I picked something that aligned with the organizational
• 19:10
  mission. That made it easy to get meetings with
• 19:13
  people because they're always looking for opportunities
• 19:16
  to further the mission. The second thing that
• 19:19
  I did is I met with everyone who I could to pitch
• 19:23
  the idea to build a coalition. Obviously, I got
• 19:26
  my manager on board first and he was supportive,
• 19:29
  but I met with people that I typically didn't
• 19:32
  meet with. And the best example there was compliance
• 19:35
  and legal because they're the people that can
• 19:37
  say no. But once I got them into the camp proactively,
• 19:43
  it greased the skids for final approval. once
• 19:47
  it was all lined up there and then going back
• 19:49
  to something we talked about with your last question
• 19:52
  i kept everyone updated because even though it's
• 19:56
  live does it mean it's going to stay live and
• 19:59
  so you have i had to circle back to folks let
• 20:01
  them know how it's going let them know it's working
• 20:03
  where we've had some some bumps in the road and
• 20:07
  it actually made the company's annual report
• 20:10
  we profiled and wells fargo was a 90 billion
• 20:12
  dollar company at the time so a giant enterprise
• 20:15
  And we profiled a customer that had been turned
• 20:18
  down for a basic credit card. My team coached
• 20:21
  them. This woman, she eventually got a regular
• 20:24
  credit card and a mortgage. So helped her kind
• 20:27
  of realize the dream of home ownership and the
• 20:30
  bank make a lot of money. And because the mortgage
• 20:33
  is a very profitable product and stuff like that
• 20:36
  in your career doesn't happen much. So I'm proud
• 20:38
  of that. And it all comes down to that conscious
• 20:41
  effort to build the relationships, build the
• 20:44
  coalition. and get people on board. And you should
• 20:48
  be proud of that. That's quite a feather in your
• 20:51
  cap. Do you believe your professional network
• 20:54
  discovers your character most clearly when you're
• 20:59
  successful or when something goes wrong and why?
• 21:04
  I think character is revealed on, I'm going to
• 21:09
  take a third path that you didn't lay out. I
• 21:11
  think character is revealed in every interaction.
• 21:15
  Let's take an example. Let's take a networking
• 21:17
  example. Let's say I say to someone, hey, let's
• 21:21
  meet to talk about X, Y, Z topic. OK, I teed
• 21:24
  up a conversation. Someone and I are on LinkedIn
• 21:27
  have are jiving on the same topic. If I position
• 21:31
  that meeting as, hey, let's just exchange notes
• 21:34
  and I flip it to a hard sell for my company's
• 21:38
  product, I have betrayed my word and I have diminished
• 21:42
  my character. So I try very hard to, if I make
• 21:48
  a positioning of any conversation, to live up
• 21:51
  to that. And so that's why I think it's every
• 21:54
  interaction reveals your character. Now, obviously,
• 21:57
  when the shit hits the fan, to use a technical
• 22:01
  term, and something goes wrong in your career,
• 22:04
  that's where it's easy to take a shortcut to
• 22:07
  try to get out of it by cutting a corner. And
• 22:09
  to your point, I think every expert would agree
• 22:11
  it's in the points of adversity. That if you
• 22:14
  stick to doing the right thing, ultimately, you
• 22:17
  will be better served, if I were to use a platitude.
• 22:21
  Absolutely. And really, the only thing that I
• 22:24
  want to add to that is, if you make that type
• 22:27
  of mistake, then you should own it. You should
• 22:30
  say, look, yep, that was my bad. And I'm going
• 22:33
  to do everything I can to fix it. But this is
• 22:36
  where we are. And if you own it, you don't try
• 22:39
  to, I used to call somebody Mr. Teflon. because
• 22:42
  he always tried to get it off of him and put
• 22:44
  on somebody else. But it always came down to
• 22:47
  the fact of you've owned it, you took care of
• 22:51
  it, and you can move on from it. So that was
• 22:54
  a big part of this. Okay. When rebuilding credibility
• 22:58
  after failure, which matters more? Explaining
• 23:03
  what happened, demonstrating what you've learned,
• 23:06
  or changing what you do next? I'm going to go
• 23:10
  with one and three. Okay. So I think you need
• 23:15
  to do a root cause analysis and explain what
• 23:19
  went wrong because people want to know it's not
• 23:22
  going to happen again. And then you need to course
• 23:24
  correct because if you're working on something
• 23:26
  that's worth working on, you still want to make
• 23:29
  progress and still tackle whatever problem you're
• 23:31
  trying to solve. And you need a plan. And by
• 23:34
  communicating that, you'll get people to help
• 23:37
  you improve the plan. I'm going to make one point
• 23:40
  that goes back to the last question and this
• 23:42
  question. One of my personal beliefs is ego is
• 23:46
  one of the greatest hindrances in business. So
• 23:50
  what do I mean by that? If you have a big ego
• 23:52
  and you can't admit a failure, that's going to
• 23:55
  hurt you. If you have a big ego and you can't
• 23:58
  listen for feedback to improve your ideas, improve
• 24:01
  your presentation, these are all hindrances.
• 24:03
  I personally believe that those that are most
• 24:06
  successful check their ego. are always open to
• 24:09
  feedback, to changing, to learning. And that's
• 24:13
  not always easy, but that is a secret, I believe.
• 24:16
  It isn't easy being green. Absolutely. Okay,
• 24:20
  let's bring this podcast full circle. If your
• 24:23
  thought leadership disappeared tomorrow, no content,
• 24:27
  no platform, no title, what would remain about
• 24:31
  your character that would still make people want
• 24:34
  to work with you? I think it's a passion. to
• 24:39
  make a difference on the areas that I'm working
• 24:41
  on. I've spent my career working on customer
• 24:44
  experience, advice and guidance, and I truly
• 24:47
  am passionate about the topic. I can talk at
• 24:50
  length with people about it. I can call on experiences,
• 24:55
  both positive and negative, and pattern recognition.
• 24:58
  And I think that comes through. I think people
• 25:00
  who are wrestling with those problems want to
• 25:03
  be with experts, if you will. People who have
• 25:06
  scars on their back of what works and what doesn't
• 25:08
  work and some viewpoint and opinions about how
• 25:12
  to make it better. So when you've got subject
• 25:14
  matter expertise, I think that goes a long way.
• 25:18
  I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.
• 25:22
  Evan, this was a great podcast. You're a great
• 25:24
  guest. And listen, if somebody wants to get hold
• 25:28
  of you, either for your company, for you personally,
• 25:31
  they want to be mentored by you, what's the best
• 25:34
  way for them to get hold of you? Yep. Let me
• 25:36
  give you a couple things. So my email, esiegel,
• 25:40
  E -S -I -E -G -E -L, at egame .com. I'm on LinkedIn.
• 25:46
  Just search Evan Siegel at LinkedIn. And if any
• 25:49
  of your small business listeners want to have
• 25:51
  an AI agent, I'm going to make a plug if you
• 25:53
  don't mind, an AI agent for their businesses,
• 25:56
  we have a self -provisioned, meaning you can
• 25:59
  set it up. a self -provisioned solution you can
• 26:02
  find at eGain .com. And if anyone wants, any
• 26:06
  of your listeners, I'm going to make an offer
• 26:07
  that we have a team that can give them a white
• 26:10
  glove overview of how to set that up and get
• 26:13
  it going to do AI agent self -service. Have them
• 26:16
  email me. I'll set them up with one of our experts.
• 26:19
  We love small businesses. We love to help them
• 26:21
  enter the AI age, reduce their costs and improve
• 26:24
  their service. Absolutely. That's great. And
• 26:28
  today's big takeaway. Credibility isn't built
• 26:32
  by always being right. It's built by how you
• 26:36
  respond when you're wrong. Own the mistake. Learn
• 26:40
  from it. Communicate early and clearly. Give
• 26:44
  people a reason to trust you again. If you enjoyed
• 26:48
  this episode, like, follow, and subscribe to
• 26:51
  Networking Unleashed Building Profitable Connections
• 26:53
  and share it with someone who needs to hear this
• 26:56
  conversation. And remember, expertise... may
• 27:01
  get you into the room, but relationships open
• 27:03
  the door. But relationships may open the door,
• 27:06
  but character determines whether you'll be invited
• 27:10
  back. I'm Michael Foreman. Thanks for listening,
• 27:13
  and I'll see you next time. Evan, I'll speak
• 27:16
  to you soon, and have a great one. Thanks a lot,
• 27:19
  Michael. We're out, folks. A huge thank you to
• 27:24
  our guests for sharing such incredible insights
• 27:27
  today. And of course, a big shout out to you.
• 27:30
  our amazing listeners for tuning in and spending
• 27:34
  your time with us. If you're interested in my
• 27:36
  digital courses, being coached or having me come
• 27:39
  and talk to your company, just go to Michael
• 27:43
  and fill out the request form. Remember, networking
• 27:46
  isn't about being perfect. It's about being present.
• 27:50
  So take what you've learned today, get out there
• 27:53
  and make some meaningful connections. If you've
• 27:56
  enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to
• 27:59
  subscribe. Leave us a review and share it with
• 28:02
  someone who could use a little networking inspiration.
• 28:05
  Let's keep the conversation going. You can find
• 28:08
  me on Apple, Spotify, Pandora, YouTube, or my
• 28:13
  website, foreman .com slash podcasts.