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Meet_a_Color_Expert · Workplace Confessions: Behind Closed Doors

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Workplace Confessions Behind Closed Doors.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Elsa Barbie.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Don Andrews.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: We have been friends since sixth grade.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Somewhere between a car wash job, a few questionable boy choices, and 40 years of friendship, we became the kind of people who always want to know what's really going on, including at work.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Don spent 25 years as an employment lawyer digging into workplace drama from the inside out.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: I built a long career in the beauty industry as a brand educator with a few TV cameos sprinkled in for fun.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: We came up in very different industries, but we have the same passion.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Meeting new people and asking how they got their jobs, what they love, what they can't stand, and what happens behind closed doors.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Every episode, we talk to a new guest about their lived experience in the world of work.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: And because our guests stay anonymous, they can spill the truth without the fallout.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: We get into the choices they made, the tiny cruelties, the surprise kindnesses, and some of the moments that never make it into human resources reports.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Equal Parts informative and titillating.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: This show serves up all the tea while honoring the incredible, complicated, often messy work people are doing across the industries and across the map.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Workplace Confessions Behind Closed Doors.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into it.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us about your first paying job.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: My very first paying job, believe it or not, was actually in a salon.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was an assistant on the nail side.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like in charge of making sure all the nail polish colors were in a certain order, so it looked aesthetically a certain way.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like since that very first job of mine, I've always had an eye for seeing the color spectrum in a certain way.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you do now?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I wear many hats.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Mostly I educate hair colorists and I teach them ways to be the best colorist they possibly can be.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a very unique background in that I've brought in what education I was provided for with traditional cosmetology.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I applied more of image consulting to hair color because I find that for many years you understand how to apply color, look at a client, but you're never really taught to really assess a client individually.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: You more apply trends and provide them with what is going to make them look, quote unquote, into this mold of what is attractive.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas with image consulting, it's so much more about taking where the client is and where they are and repeating.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the beauty lies and where that client is, and then repeat what so it's really contradicting.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I find that stylists love finding out this whole other modality because then it completely unleashes and just creates a much more customized experience for their clients.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Lovely.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: What is that like from a user experience perspective?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: What does the client see when they come in and have it?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, it's pretty enlightening because you're never really you're first of all, you're there with no makeup on, and we pull if you have artificial color, we pull your hair back.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you're just stripped to who you are to the core, and we're trying to really identify your natural coloring.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what the client gets to experience is understanding how their natural coloring is being enhanced.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: So me being able to give them a read of, oh, you have very clear skin, you don't have any softness to you, allows you to wear more to more bolder colors and showing the client wearing bolder colors how they look immediately supported.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's a glow that comes from the inside versus putting on something that is not made for them and it makes them look that much more unattractive.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: What surprised you most about this type of line of work that you seem to have always been in?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it never falls short on me to bring out we all have an idea.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like every I think every hair colorist and every hairstylist has an idea of how good the client's going to look on the other end of it.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: But until you've actually applied that color, you're seeing it reflected on their skin, you're seeing it reflected on their hair.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: It never, it never amazes me less is when I see a client and they come in and they have low confidence, they feel very shy, they feel very timid, and then you give them a color that makes them look beautiful, illuminated.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like they transformed time 10 years ago.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And to see that every single time, it's like it's the best gift in the world, honestly.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like it's helps with their self-esteem from what you're saying.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, definitely.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of times, too, for women, you don't necessarily even know the direction.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know what your mom taught you, you know what you read in certain magazines.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: But again, a lot of what you read in magazines is very trend forward.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very much the color of the season is the new bang that everybody's getting, or Anne Hathaway on the red carpet is wearing this.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't have Anne Hathaway's coloring, then that's not going to suit you.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I find that being able to create a customized approach with the individual client, it gives them so much more power and that it definitely works on their ego because then they walk in with so much more confidence.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because a big part of, I think, of a woman feeling very feminine is her whole getting ready process.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like how much ease does she have doing that?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: We've all been there where you're in your closet, you don't have anything to wear, and you're quite frustrated, and then you show up to the event and you're walking in with all of that baggage.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: So then imagine rewind and you're going through your closet and it's easy because everything is meant for you, cut-wise, color-wise.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So for you to style your hair with ease, pick out an outfit with ease, apply the right makeup colors with ease, it just makes you walk in so much more, like you almost have a secret that no other woman in the room has.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: What do you do or what do you advise when a client sits in the chair and you make your recommendation or the stylist makes the recommendation and the person's no, that's not my color, and they want the opposite or something, and you know it's gonna be horrible.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: That happens a lot.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So usually the way that's set up is a client will walk in with, let's say, an inspirational photo of a hair color that they would like.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So when they bring that in and they're booked with me for a full service of doing their color analysis and then a color service, I right off the bat, I never show judgment to their inspirational photo because, first of all, I could be wrong.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I could put my drapes on a client and they could reveal that color might actually suit them.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So when they immediately show their inspiration photo, I not I have no judgment towards it whatsoever, especially with that individual.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then if I see that as the inspirational photo, and as I'm going through the draping process, I'm seeing where her coloring is, like her natural undertone and her natural intensity.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And in my mind, I'm thinking that inspirational photo is not actually going to support that client in the best way.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So then what I do is I change the way that I present the drapes onto the client.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I like to keep it very positive.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: I end on the positive, so I put the drape on that is their coloring last, and then I put a color that's maybe not as complimentary on top so that I could reveal and then end on the positive.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if I see that, let's say a client's bringing in a photo of a client who's a level 10 blonde and their coloring is speaking to something that's much more dark, I'll continually make sure that the client sees how uncomplimentary the light colors look on their skin so that by the end of their session, they don't even want the blonde color anymore either.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of the time, too, it's it's really important for me to see what complements my client's hair color and skin tone and texture, but it's even more important for my client to see it in their own eyes.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: And when you say draping, our listeners don't know what that is, I'm sure.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: So what are you referring to?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's essentially we strip back all the color noise.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: So if you've artificially colored your hair, we pulled that back.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you no makeup, no SPF, I typically will drape my client in just a white because it reduces any of the excess noise.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'll also wear a white coat as well, so that none of us are distracted by any color.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because of course it's not about me, it's about my client seeing everything as well.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we remove as much excess noise from the background as possible, and then we place different drapes that are strategically created in a certain order so that we could start uncovering my client's natural coloring.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the fabric itself goes below the shoulders and across the chest, and then it goes just belief, but just below the chin, so we could see that reflection on their actual skin tone.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So those are what we call the drapes, and then there's some that have a line of color within a palette.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: So those are typically called flags.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there's flags and then there's drapes, but all of it is the same.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: All of it is to see how your skin's responding to that color.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like how do you navigate the conversation of really letting that client trust you in what you're saying?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Great question.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Also, I will say a big part of it too is all in the beginning in the consultation.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: I will typically, I'm sure you've seen consultations online, and also you're so ubiquitously around all these salons, but I find that the most important step in the consultation is that you're really looking eye to eye with the client.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't put the cape on the client right away.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: I have my whole checklist of strategic questions.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, some color analysts will send the questions prior, but I find that there's so much more information into the context of when I ask the question and I see how they respond.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no cape on the client so I could read their entire body language, and I'm literally eye to eye with them.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then I talk to them like I'm having a conversation with a girlfriend or my sister.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that helps us both start in a very grounding place so that they feel comfortable enough to be like accepting of this new path.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because I, of course, I want them to trust me.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And they usually come with some sense of like she's vetted, they know that I know my stuff.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I also want them to feel comfortable enough to express to me if they are seeing it or if they're not seeing it.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want them to tell me that they're seeing it if they're genuinely not, because a big part of it is training their eye because I'm not going to be with them all the time.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if they see it, then I know that when I'm not there and they're shopping, they know exactly what lip color is going to suit them and what lip color is not going to suit them.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or they'll know this shirt is just not in my color palette, but it would look great on somebody else.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: So just being able to have that comfort with the client that they trust me so that they stay being able to kind of train their own eye.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: And where did you get training to do this?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it was it self-study?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Great question.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I got I got my own color analysis done about six years ago.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I when I got typed, I just it wasn't resonating with me.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't feel like I'm this season.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I kept trying and I really tried to stay open to the energy.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I went to another place and got typed, and I got typed in that same season again.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I really just inevitably just went down a rabbit hole and just I'm like, I'm gonna figure this out myself because none of this is working.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't feel supported.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: By the end of the day, I would feel very exhausted.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you guys don't know how deep it goes, but really it's pretty incredible.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you're sleeping in the right color of sheets, you'll get much better sleep at night.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: When you're wearing the right clothes that support you, it's amazing.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: It truly is amazing.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're wearing the right clothes that support you all day, you could have accomplished so much, but you don't feel drained of energy because all day long you were wearing colors that were within your energy.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it some of it can get a little energy systems, and some people find that to be a little boo-boo.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I believe in portions of it.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say that I have found times where I wasn't in my coloring and I'm like, that's why I feel tired.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And quite the opposite.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say I don't get enough sleep.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: I put on a color that's absolutely in my palette.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like a million bucks.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I will say that when I went down this rabbit, this rabbit hole journey of figuring out what really is going to put my client and put myself into the right color palette, I went and got some education on it.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, I probably could apply this to hair color as well.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I did one certification online and then I flew to Florida.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I got another certification, and I'm sure Elsa can attest because when you get multiple different systems education, you kind of pull the best from each.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Elsa probably has six or seven mentors in her life who created such a strong impact.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't just one person who gave you the one source of energy of education.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: You are who you are, and you have such a well-versed education because of so many people you learned from.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I got certified in six different systems because I wanted to take the best from each one and just kind of help bridge the gap between cosmetology and traditional ways of thinking and marry that with image consulting.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so, again, like I've been certified six times.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Some systems I knew right away this is just not for me.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll pick up one or two treats from it.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: But most of my education came from Canada.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I flew up to Canada many times.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Canada is ahead of us in terms of that.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, definitely not.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: I will say Korea is really good at this as well.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say there's there's a great program that's in Canada.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: She's the one who's been around doing it the longest time.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: But there's elements of that that don't tie into cosmetology.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I would reach another education program to kind of help bridge that gap.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's fascinating that I've been able to take little nuggets of knowledge from each one of the trainings.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty incredible, I'll be honest.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty amazing.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even so much knowing like what colors you shouldn't wear and what colors you should wear.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: The best part of the whole consultation process is the last 20 set of flags because all of those colors are in your palette, but then we find your wow colors and where like where you look extra amazing.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there's of those 20 colors, five of them are your real standouts.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the most fun part of the whole portion.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: So like I could look at someone and say, oh, you're an autumn, but until they're in my chair and we've stripped back all the color noise, I don't know, I can't tell their power colors until that moment.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's to me the most unique and most important part of the whole process is knowing your five most important best colors that are for you.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say, I feel like this observation I'm about to make is really it's like the kindergarten level, and you're you're at the PhD level in this work.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: So forgive me my dumb question.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, please.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I Elsa and I have a mutual friend, and she's also my sister-in-law, and we go shopping together a lot, much to Elsa's chagrin, because she does not like to shop.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's all we want to do.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And inevitably, this friend will pick out clothes for me in colors that I would say are not my colors, like mustard, rust, certain greens, like autumn colors.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: And she'll argue with me and say, This is your color, you can wear this.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: And when I put it on, it to me, it looks like my skin turned gray.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And but I wondered, am I just imagining that?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because she's so insistent.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: So is that a real thing?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's totally a real thing.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you could you could totally say, and honestly, Dawn, no one is gonna feel, no one is gonna know your colors.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: A color analyst is gonna know when you're working in that type of a space.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: But no girlfriend, no family member, moms are like with the closest who would be able to look at you and say, This color is for you.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And there's three different dimensions to color.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: So there's lightness and darkness, there's brightness and mutedness, and then there's warm and cool.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: So while you may have a color that's let's say green, maybe it's really dusty green and soft and has a little bit too much gray added to it.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe green is in your palette on, but she's picking out a green that is too soft for your undertone and it's too soft for you.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: So she might be like on target.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're autumn.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to drape you at any time.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's again, and I don't mean to make it sound like hyperbole.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is life-changing.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think every man, woman, child should do it just so they have it their self for the rest of their lives.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: But there could be, you could be, let's say you are, for instance, in the autumn family.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just a matter of knowing, okay, you can wear greens and you can wear reds.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: We, I work on the 23 seasonal palette.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's the most specific palette system that's out there.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not even just a matter of you saying, oh, you can wear greens, you can wear oranges, you can wear reds.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: It is a specific hue, intensity, and value that's unique to just you.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like your own personal palette.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you can't discover that just by looking at somebody.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be in the setup where all the noise is taken away and you're really seeing the skin's response to the color.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is the best part of your job.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, the best part of my job.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: The best part of my job is just giving everybody confidence.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you give people the ability to streamline the way that they get ready and the way that they put themselves together and that whole ritual, you elevate that whole ritual for them.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And they think about you every single time that they get ready.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's so unique.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's so empowering for me to know that's something that I give to somebody because there's nothing like feeling like you have a closet full of clothes, but nothing to wear, a tub full of product, and you don't know how to use it, a beautiful head of hair that you don't even know how to work with, and you keep trying to fight it to do something the opposite of what it really wants to do.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just giving people the clarity and the streamline of getting ready in a way that feels beautiful and elegant and just so much more with so much more grace, you can get yourself ready.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty incredible.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what would you say is the hardest part of your job?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Hardest part.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think the hardest part of my job is I'm definitely a people pleaser at the core.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I like women feeling and men feeling like the best version of themselves.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes I want to give my client a service that is a certain set price, just based on, you know, the time allotted and the education that took to get me there.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes the hardest is being able to speak to it in a way that kind of proves my worth, which I know my worth, but I also feel at the same time like people might be like, oh, just tell me what I am.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be selling you short by doing that, and I'd be selling myself short by doing that.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the hardest thing about what I do is not being a people people pleaser.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And when someone says, What do you think I am?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just being really honest and being like, I really need to see you in my chair for a full proper two hours.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is how big is the industry right now?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's funny because like I bet your mom did it.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: So this woman, uh Carol Jackson, she wrote this book called Color Me Beautiful.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like big in the 80s when they were doing Tupperware parties where you come over and let's do your colors and we'll do your colors and we'll talk Tupperware.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: That whole era back then.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: That was like the early 80s.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really just typing people and putting them into the four seasons.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then it has evolved where it went from the four seasons to 12 seasons to 16 seasons.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And most people really do either 12 or 16.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there's definitely was a resurgence on it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I would say TikTok really blew it up.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: I would say right around right before COVID.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: There was a big resurgence with that.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then a lot of times people who will, like for in entertainment purposes, they will quote unquote type celebrities and say, oh, Kim Kardashian is uh winter or Zendaya is a deep autumn.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what you see now, probably a lot of that.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then you see a lot of people draping.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And like everything, some systems are more accurate than others.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Some systems prioritize the products that they're selling, some systems prioritize like the core science of it, which obviously also you know that's what I love so much is like I want to know the theory, I want to pay homage to Isaac Newton, all the greats who came up with our color wheel and how it's gotten to where it is today.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: I love all of it.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I love all of it because it's like very tangible, it's like very factual.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would say that it was really big in the 80s, and then there was another resurgence about seven years ago.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that was when I really got, I went six years ago, but that was really when I got my own typing.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then now I see why I was typed, mistyped so many times.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: So now my whole goal, to be honest with you, is to just create as accurate analysts as I possibly can, because anything in any industry, Don, you're an attorney.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: You said you're a lawyer.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: You were.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not all cut the same way.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Some are like really accurate and some are very cutthroat, and some are everyone has their own personality and niche.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say that my priority with teaching hairstylists and teaching people about colors of themselves is I want to be as accurate as I possibly can because after I was typed initially, I went and made some big, pretty big investment purchases.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm under the assumption I'm a certain undertone, I'm gonna make purchases such as jewelry and handbags that I thought were gonna stand the test of time.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: So then you end up making these purchases based on a false assumption.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then now what do I do with these pieces that I don't feel comfortable wearing?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a pretty big deal if you mistype somebody, and I take that very serious.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Every everything I know I learned on Instagram, and so it's all very kitschy.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: But one thing I read is that an easy way to pick a good lip color is to match it to your nipple color.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I've heard this.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think that could be like an everyday lip, but think about nights that you want to have an after-five lip.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know anybody with an after-five lip as a knit.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, but I think that might be a good baseline for some people.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think I've heard that before.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I like it because you're using your own natural coloring, but I think it'd just be it's a little limiting to what lip choices you have.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then you can never wear green lipstick or blue, probably.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, unless you're unless that was your color.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you remember, there was this lipstick in maybe the 80s, late 80s, early 90s, where it was you might remember this, Elsa, it was I think it was black.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: And when you put it on, it turned out the color that you were supposed to wear.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: What was it called, Elsa?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was like a mood lipstick.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: A mood lipstick, yes.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it changed colors on you.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's probably too young for that.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember that one specifically, but I remember there was that Clinique Black Honey had a chokehold on everyone, and I think there was something to Said about your natural pH and change the color based on your pH.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that maybe there was some bridge that was a gap with that.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: But none of that is all of that's very kitschy.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, it's not as accurate as just getting yourself the right color for yourself to begin with.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's no science to it.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's just no.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's just talk about the industry for a second.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: One of our big questions that we like to ask is if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about your industry, what would it be?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I look at it, I'm bridging two different industries together.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say the one thing that I would change about the image consulting industry is they're really big on just letting your natural hair grow.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to color your hair color, it is damaging.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's not always made for you, which I understand is definitely not always made for you.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of times in image consulting, a lot of times they're like encouraging women to embrace their own gray and encouraging them to let their hair be quote unquote natural.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be honest with you, the best hair color that you have is your early teen years.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think they're misguiding a lot of men and women by having them embrace their gray and then lowering their contrast.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's going to make them look a little bit more mature than they really are.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: So if I can have a magic wand over my industry, I would say that if someone recommends for you to embrace your natural hair color, I would say get a few opinions on that and see how you actually would look with all gray, for instance.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And can we just mention at this point that Renee is a Wella color expert?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like you're fighting against color.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're in the color hair color industry.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's and then in the cosmos side of it, it's so much about correction, right?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you, Elsa, you have beautiful depth to you.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: You have a lot of depth to you.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're warm or cool yet.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: I need to see you without the noise, but I know right away that you look, you have a lot of depth.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: But traditional cosmetology would say, Oh, you have so much depth.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let's lighten you up, let's give you a lot of highlights because we don't want this darkness to overpower you.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: So let's correct you, let's balance you out.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's the other side that I fight with Cosmo is you're not always fixing your client.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Your client is born with the perfect face shape because that's what they were born with.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times, too, it's finding that happy balance of teaching the cosmos that hair color is amazing, or teaching Cosmos that embracing what your client has is amazing.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then also on the image consulting side of hair color is incredible and it could really elevate an entire appearance of someone.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: What is one myth about your industry that makes you crazy?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think people love and chat GPT absolutely has its own time and place, and AI definitely has its own time and place.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm really big on embracing and letting that make your life a little bit more easy.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I think a lot of times people think, oh, take your face and upload it into Chat GPT and have it tell you what color will look good on you.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Just the state of right now where AI is really good at converting literal things.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not fantastic at reading a client's undertone and intensity.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's good at reading level, but if you have a warm undertone and you upload a photo, there's so much corrections that our phones do to make it so that we look appealing on screen.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: So the one myth that really is huge is AI being able to do your color analysis accurately.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to get the wrong analysis, ask ChatGPT.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if that's why when people use ChatGPT to make their headshot photos, like my brother just did this, and they look they look like you, but they don't.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's the coloring that they're getting wrong.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's how it all came to be.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's so funny you say that, Don, because how color analysis started, I'm talking like late 1700s.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: There were painters who were painting people, and they were realizing that for some people, they needed to add more blue to their skin, and then other people they needed to add more yellow.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that was like the birth of you have a warm undertone or you have a cool undertone.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's 100% accurate, Don.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that AI and the computer is not going to be good at really reading what your undertone is.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it gives everybody this very beige cartoony image when you see their photo.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, that's clearly AI.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And not to say it won't be great in five to 10 years, but where it's at right now, it's really inaccurate at typing people in color analysis.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, Renee, now we always like to have our question of the hour.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: The whole reason why Dee and I actually started this podcast.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is the juicy part.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: What is the wildest, weirdest, or most unforgettable thing that you've witnessed in any of your positions?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great question.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I have seen some miraculous damage done to hair.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Not me have done it personally, but I've been eyewitness to it.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like where 10 inches were completely unusable and needed to be cut.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that was pretty wild to me to see like all that they had done to the decline's hair in a very short period of time and how much damage they were able to do to this poor girl who had such beautiful hair to start with.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it was pretty hard for me to see, to be honest with you.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Was that about a color damaging example?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: I would say she was naturally a level two.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: The stylist leached her three times on the same day.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: She had long Rapunzel hair, very quite long and healthy and shiny.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was sitting right next door and listening to the consultation, just overheard parts of it.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: And she really just wanted something that was going to make her look good.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And this was like 10 years ago.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she just wanted something that was going to make her look good and something that was low maintenance.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know what this colorist was thinking, and that he decided to put bleach from roots to ends, and then did that again, and then did that again.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so then she had a severe amount of damage.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you can figure out you don't want to put lightener on the hair in the same thing more than once.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's just a big no-no.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: So three times is excessive for sure.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: So for our listeners who are not hairdressers, a level two is dark.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: You let it grow because if it's already broken, it'll just break more up the shaft and then it gets shorter, and it's not a pleasurable experience.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: You can't really manipulate your hair.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to brush it because it just keeps continuing to damage.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: So at that point, you need to cut it and really work on your healthy hair journey.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care all that much about my hair, and I think that makes me a weirdo as a woman, which leads me to my next question is why are people so obsessed with their hair over everything else?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like they're they just I would say, yeah, we don't think so much about hair, but we obviously we do.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: But had you like what would you say is your most important photo in your house, Don?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me your most important photo you've ever had, ever.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: My wedding photo.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Your wedding photo.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is it like a photo?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is it in a nice frame?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is it in a nice frame?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it just yes?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's a frame around it, right?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's a frame around it.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's like your hair.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Your face is your most coveted asset, right?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not wearing a proper frame around your beautiful face, it doesn't accentuate your face at all.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you're doing really good hair, it's always about putting focus on the beautiful face.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about pulling focus from the face.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you have a beautiful photo, that means a lot to you.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: You want to frame it properly.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there is so much emphasis, not only on aesthetically looking a certain way, but a lot of times it in some ways can be our shield.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: I could hide a little bit more.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can put a little bit more in my eye if I'm feeling a little bashful.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: If I want to feel like a little more free and a little more carefree, I'll have a fresh blowout that's really buoyant and has a lot of bouncy movement to it.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: It changes your whole energy source.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think people are maybe even subconsciously, subconsciously prioritize it is because it completely changes the way you feel.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: With starting moving nail polishes, different color nail polishes, to still working with color.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Would you say you chose this career, or did this career choose you?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think it chose me in so many ways.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it chose me.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: There was so many in retrospect.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great question.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think in retrospect, so many the universe organically brought me into the world of color.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: I painted when I was four, always was like for Christmas.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I always wanted a drawing desk.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted the latest and greatest prisma colors.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted the latest and greatest oil paints and acrylic paints and watercolor paints.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think since I was born, I don't know, I don't know any other life than knowing that the center of it was always around a color wheel, always.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: But Renee, what is one lesson that you've learned the hard way in your industry, in your career?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: That the client needs to see it is equally as much as I need to see it.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's equally as important for the client to see it as is for me to see it.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because I could sit here and tell you all day these are your colors, but if you don't see how your skin looks so much better and supported in those right colors, it doesn't matter.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to do as much work as I can before the client sits in my chair so that I can make the experience all about them seeing it.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I would always have my client send me historical photos of them, like in their early teen years.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then I take my virtual drapes.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I essentially put like colors behind them.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do as much homework about my client as I possibly can beforehand.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: So when they're in my chair, I already have a really good idea of what season they are.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: I they might flow, but I have a really good idea of where I'm starting at.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that it doesn't become about me trying to discover it in that moment.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's more so about me meeting my client with what do they think is attractive and what is really attractive for them and making that connection for them of changing their perspective of I know that you like to wear these colors and you love to have your hair this color, but these are going to suit you much better and you'll feel much more illuminated when you are wearing those.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell us about an aha moment that you had with a client?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Aha moment with a client.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk about did a client cry?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Did the client?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh, yeah, I've had a couple clients cry.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely had a couple clients cry.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I will say a big aha is we form these memories and these feelings towards colors in our life that we don't necessarily even remember where we got that past association from.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a time when I was draping a client and she had been in a really abusive relationship, and her husband always wore black, and she always wore black.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: And they had gotten divorced, but she was just finding that she was always wearing black.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think she was even conscious of the fact that when she was wearing black, first of all, it wasn't in her palette at all, but it was like she was kind of still stuck in that marriage.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: About halfway through the draping, she's can we just have a moment where I just don't have any drapes on me?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, Yeah, of course.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Let's take a pause.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: I took the cape off and she just started what water parks.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what that expression is, water works.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was just her and I in the room.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so she felt comfortable enough.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: And she just really let it out.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: She's, I feel like I've been living in the past of my previous marriage.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I wear this black because it has been such a blanket for me and it's made me feel like I've been hiding from society.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that was like one of the most remarkable moments.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then I, of course, then want to come back at it with ease with her.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to overwhelm her with, okay, here's Barbie Peak for you.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: I want to slowly get her back into just getting into just the neutral category.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's start getting you into whites and creams and browns.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: But you you get these past associations with colors, and maybe you're you remember what it was from.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: She was fortunate enough to remember it was in her marriage, but maybe you had a traumatic experience as a child, and maybe you fell on something that was a certain shade of blue, and you've always avoided that shade of blue, or somebody would speak to you in a very loving way and made you feel very, very comforted and very taken care of.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they always wore a magenta shirt, you might like to wear magenta because you're chasing that feeling.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the biggest aha with this is just how much psychology goes in color and how much it shapes the way that we feel in that moment.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's studies of if you have a house and let's say you paint the walls gray, you can start becoming in a very depressive state when you are surrounded by these gray colors.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: The opposite, too.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you start being around a lot of warm red colors, you're all your appetites increase.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: You get your heart rate increases, you're much more energized.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's pretty fascinating, just even the psychology of color.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely love that.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: That note.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Renee, can you let us know where our listeners can find you?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, and everything is Renee Color.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: So R-E-N-E-E, Color the American Way, C O L O R.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, you.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Period.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: No you.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: No you.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's go ahead and close you out.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, thank you.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Renee, thank you so much for I think we probably could have gone a couple extra hours.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: We can do it all day.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: I love this.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it was color, hair, nail lacquer colors, everything that has to do with color.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: This was one of the most memorable interviews that we've had.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Such a colorful experience with you, Renee.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you for sharing your story with us today.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: You have officially joined the ranks of the brave and the bold.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so honored to be on here with both of you women that are so powerful and intelligent.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: So honored.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's it for this week's confession.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: We've laughed, cringed, and maybe questioned our own career choices.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Big thanks to our anonymous guests for keeping it real and reminding us that behind every job title is a story worth telling.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got a workplace confession of your own, we're all ears.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hit us up at our email address.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and share.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Your support helps us keep the secrets flowing.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, keep your badge clipped, your coffee strong, and your stories wild.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is Workplace Confessions Behind Closed Doors.