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Conservation Easements: Opportunities, Misconceptions, and Legacy Planning with Jim Bradbury · Conservation Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:05
  Speaker B: And welcome back again to another episode of Conservation Stories. This is Tillery Timmins Sims and as you probably know I'm your host here for Conservation Stories, which is a podcast that's sponsored by the Sandhill Area Research association or SARAH as we call it. And Sarah is involved in all kinds of things that have to do with in general human flourishing. So any kind of ecosystem that impacts how we live our daily lives and how they are impacted for good or ill, we want to be make you aware of those things. So one of the, the controversies earlier in the year which is has poof gone now has it was the purchasing of easements or purchasing of land to increase wildlife preserve that is close to eastern New Mexico which I think that that project has, has been canceled. But it, it created an awareness for me of easements and some kind of, some of the confusion around easements. And so Jim Bradberry, who's, here's our guest today is, he is an expert in easements and I can't remember Jim who told me that I should talk to you.
• 1:21
  Speaker A: I don't know. Hope it was somebody reputable.
• 1:23
  Speaker B: I, I think it was, it might have been Stephen Rockwood, I'm not sure. And earlier we recorded conversation with a man from, from Canada who has a program. It's similar, I think of it as similar to the structures like the Soil Water Conservation Districts but it's not a federal program, it's voluntary. There's about 40 something of these groups of farmers and they, they offer alternative land use. So they put conservation on the ground in different ways. The ways that they have structured and set up for their area and then corporations and local folks invest in that and then the payments go every year to directly to the farmer. So it's, it's not a cost share program like we would see with nrcs. It's not an easement they can get out anytime. But it is, it's agreed upon farmer led principle based conservation that uses their farmland to offset damage being done to the environment in other areas.
• 2:37
  Speaker A: I like that. I think that's kind of a fascinating model.
• 2:40
  Speaker B: It is, it is really, you know and I, I think that there's a place for both and I think it just depends on what your, what your goals are as a landowner. So anyway, so I mentioned ironic that we're doing this on the same day because they're really trying to achieve kind of the same, same kind of goals but through completely different systems.
• 3:01
  Speaker A: Yeah. Because I mean what we've all learned over the last, I don't know 20 years or so is our land provides substantial ecosystem services is the phrase. But it, it, it does a lot of things for people who don't own the land or who are distant from the land, cleans our water, provides more water, sustainable environment and community. And, and that has value to people who don't own the land. So, you know, a voluntary market like that to say, look, hey, we recognize you're playing an important role in our world, let's set up a structure where we can compensate you for that and ensure they can economically continue to do it. I mean, that, that's, that's a great model.
• 3:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me. You know, there's some movement towards, you know, paying like Lacey Vardaman, who started our organization. She gets paid a premium from J. Crew Madewell for per bail. They agree on so many bales of cotton that they will pay a premium on whether or not they buy it or someone else buys it. And that's based on, you know, her farming practices. So she has a lot of data that she's acquired through the years through some real robust research on the soil, health, microbial life, water infiltration and so holding water, so holding capacity and, and that kind of stuff. And so. But what happens is you have a verifier that both sides are paying a verifier at least one verifier. And sometimes you're paying more than one verifier, depending on what you're trying to certify, you know. And so this way, this is like, you know, the, this is more relationship based because you're working directly with a farmer. You don't have that go between, you know, that certifier who's really taking a chunk out of the profits, you know, that the farmer could be having. And there's ways for farmers to get things verified for, you know, we got all kinds of remote sensing capabilities. What do you want to find out? We can get all that information you want from NASA. What's going to be more secure than getting information from NASA, you know. So, yeah, I think it's a great.
• 5:19
  Speaker A: But isn't it fascinating time in agriculture? I think, you know, compared to the dark ages when I got out of Texas A and M, you know, to see one, all, all the data that's out there, but all the increased focus by, you know, the various aspects of, of the supply chain who are truly interested in what's happening on the ground, opening up additional markets, additional relationships and improved practices.
• 5:44
  Speaker B: I think in the last administration there was a Push. They did these climate smart grants. Several billion dollars went out to. They really went out to large corporations. And the goal was that the government was subsidizing the corporations to pay the farmer for these, you know, certain practices. My discussion with the people that were in the power at the time was what happens when that money's not there? There'll still be a can of soup that costs three times as much that says regeneratively grown noodle soup or whatever, you know, and so they're still making money because they're still pulling on that label. But when they quit, but then there's nothing to make them continue to pay the farmer, you know. And, you know, of course she's like, well, we hope that, you know, we're, that the corporations will pick that up and pay for it. I'm like, what? No, I mean, right, that'd be great if they would. But, you know, they're only using your money. They're using your money to increase their market, you know, and so it doesn't make any sense, just the way it was structured, you know. So I know a lot of those have gone away and I'm not too sad about some of those because of, you know, some of the places that they went. But it would have been a great opportunity for organizations to come alongside, you know, because you don't see those people still offering that money in most cases. Some cases they are, but not, not all of them.
• 7:26
  Speaker A: I mean, one of the aspects of all these new relationships and threads opening up is there's awful lot of, you know, flim flam type stuff and people who really want to glorify their, their corporation by saying we're the farmer's friend, you know, when in reality they're probably not, you know, it just makes a good ad or a good label.
• 7:47
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 7:47
  Speaker A: And that's hard for producers to sort out, you know, who are, who were the genuine and who are not the genuine.
• 7:53
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Well, and that was one of the things that really pushed us to, to rebrand and get moving forward was seeing this is a new potential revenue stream. And, and there's all of these folks that are trying to figure out how to make money in that stream, you know, inserting themselves into the value stream when, you know, we, as a nonprofit, let's figure out how we can get that straight to the farmer, you know, without, without it becoming, you know, big business to get that money to the farmer. Then, then, you know, they're the giver's money goes a long ways and then the receivers Gets the benefit. So I think that that's why this idea of Canada is appealing. For sure.
• 8:41
  Speaker A: I do too. And I mean, things always work best when they're local because everybody knows each other and nobody wants to disappoint each other or run out on each other. And that keeps balance in place there. And that, you know, it's rewarding to see because overall we, we've gone the opposite direction. You know, we've gotten so distant in our relationships that, you know, that that's really an encouraging thing. Would love, love to see more of that in, in Texas.
• 9:11
  Speaker B: So easements, the good and the bad. The good, the bad, the ugly. So tell us, how many, how many easements do you, do you normally do in a year? How popular? They're not real popular on our side of the state, on the west side of the state, but how popular are they in other parts of Texas?
• 9:32
  Speaker A: They're immensely popular. And let's, we're talking about easements, we'll call them conservation easements because to distinguish them from access easements and other kind of easements that are conservation easement, while it can be done for a term of years, typically most of them are perpetual. But yeah, the frequency and familiarity of landowners really, if you look at the whole state overall, is escalated substantially in the last, I'd say seven years. We used to do maybe five or six a year. We're probably doing 13 to, to 18 a year and that's a lot. And of course, you know, many other people who do what I do, but I, I happen to sit on the board of the state land trust and so I, you know, get to talk to all the land trusts and all of them are really in a significant uptick in landowner demand. And there are some reasons for that. But, but they're becoming increasingly popular for landowners.
• 10:37
  Speaker B: I think I see more of the, the need and the reasoning when you live or you've got a farm that's close to, I don't know, New Braunsville or somewhere in the Hill country where it's exploding or somewhere close to Houston or whatever, where we are, of course, I mean, we have land in Earth Texas, and I don't think we ever have to worry about urban sprawl. Yeah, true, we don't have to protect from urban sprawl, but I can see other, you know, especially as, as you, as your land, as you start running out of water, you know, if you convert back to grassland, you know, I can see, you know, some benefits there. But what are, what are some of the motivating factors where you are for these easements?
• 11:25
  Speaker A: Yeah, I mean there are a variety of factors. When clients come, come to us and lay it out. I mean most of the time it begins that, you know, this is a piece of property that maybe that generation bought it, but maybe it's a multi generational property. And I mean that is probably the, the most valuable asset the family holds. But that's where their heart is. I mean that's where the family gathers around that piece of property. That's their economic livelihood. And they're looking at all of these forces like fragmentation, estate taxes, very things that could put some tension on that relationship over time. And a conservation easement, while it's not the only tool and it doesn't solve everything, it is a tool to help a family establish some permanence to this place that they love, which is to say, look, we know where these four corners of this ranch are and we want them to remain for forever and multiple generations of the family will always come back here. And so it kind of starts there. I mean you have the threat of development, which of course in the Panhandle and South Plains, except for around the big cities, you don't, you don't have that. But that's not its primary purpose. I mean sometimes when you're around there, you're clearly going to prohibit commercial development of the property. But I teach ag law at the A and M law school. I come from an ag background and I look at this through those eyes and it is a tool for working farms and ranches, you know, row crop to great grazing animals. Otherwise, you know, a lot of our ownership now is in, I think it's 75 to 77 is the average age of landowner.
• 13:16
  Speaker B: Right.
• 13:17
  Speaker A: And so they're all looking out there at the horizon, think what is this going to be? And this is a tool that, you know, allows them to, to, to do some planning and when that person finally passes away to know, well, I provided a place for everyone to come back to.
• 13:34
  Speaker B: Right, right. Do, do you ever see, I mean, are you at this place where you, you're working with that second generation?
• 13:43
  Speaker A: Sure. Oh yeah. And in some cases the third. I mean, making me sound pretty old, but, but yeah, a lot of easements now are easily on their second generation. I mean where you were dealing with them, where the, the parents are, are gone, they passed away and you have the second generation and that is where at times you can see some difficulties. And, and what I always tell my clients and families, if, even though, let's say mom and dad have the legal rights to grant the easement. I encourage them to say, look, all of your adult children or grandchildren, you need to bring them into this conversation and let them understand why you're doing what you're doing, how important it is to you. That way, when they pass away, it's not just a legal document, you know, that says, well, it's in a conservation easement. They remember that meeting, you know, to say, oh, good point.
• 14:39
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 14:41
  Speaker A: And so, and, and that avoids difficulties and misunderstanding 20 years from now, 30 years from now, when the second or third generation comes, comes on.
• 14:51
  Speaker B: Because perpetual means forever.
• 14:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, that is to a lot of landowners that I talk to who, who are not familiar with this. That's a very daunting concept because we never talk about anything and perpetuity.
• 15:04
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 15:06
  Speaker A: But at the same time, that's its magic. You know, there's no other legal tool that we have in our toolbox to ensure a piece of property will remain as it is in perpetuity. You can get your kids to promise you, you can put it in the will, you can write a contract, you could do all other sorts of things, but those all things can be changed. A conservation easement is going to ensure that the person who signed that, that their wishes are maintained in perpetuity.
• 15:39
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 15:40
  Speaker A: It puts a lot of burden in terms of figuring it out what is, what it is that you want in perpetuity.
• 15:45
  Speaker B: You better get it right.
• 15:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, you better get it right. And complicated job for a lawyer, but at the same time, when you're at the closing table, you can see some emotion coming out of, of landowners who work their whole lives to establish this property debt free, to know that they've kind of made it, you know, they've satisfied their desire to know that this property is going to remain. It's pretty powerful.
• 16:14
  Speaker B: Today's episode is brought to you by Evan Stone with Clear Rock Farm and Ranch, part of the Clear Rock Realty Group in Lubbock, Texas. Evan understands West Texas land, agriculture, and what it takes to buy and sell farms and ranches in our unique region. If you're ready to make your next move, trust someone who knows the lay of the land. Visit Evan at clearrockrealty.com serving Lubbock and the surrounding communities, Clear Rock Farms and Ranch, your partner on the plains. It's a unique tool because I know a lot of, a lot of us, I mean, like a lot of our retirement is in those, is in that land, you know, and so you begin to, you know, sometimes, like, you will liquidate that land so you can go into the nursing home or. You know what I mean? Or your family could take care of you because you need the cash from it, you know, so I can see. Do you see a lot of farmland or is it mostly ranch land?
• 17:15
  Speaker A: It's probably, if you add it all up, there's more ranch land than row crop. But a row crop is. We've done those, and we do do those. I mean, there. It's equally qualified as ranch land, raised rangeland. And of course, there are categories of land that are not neither ranch nor farm. You know, there are a lot of projects that are done along the Gulf coast that are, are, aren't really. They may graze some there, but it's not prime grazing land that it's done for coastal resilience, you know, accepting the, the force of hurricanes and otherwise. And so it does not have to be a true farm or a true ranch in order to, to. To qualify for an easement.
• 18:02
  Speaker B: So where does the money come from?
• 18:04
  Speaker A: Well, good question. Several sources. I mean, let me step back a bit. When you do this.
• 18:09
  Speaker B: I was going to say, you know, might be a good idea for people that don't really know where. Can you just give us a straightforward definition of an easement?
• 18:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Conservation easement is, you know, it's, it's a legal document. And what you're doing is you've got to have a counterparty. Okay. The counterparty typically is a land trust who are nonprofit entities. We've got over 30 of them in Texas whose sole purpose is to work with landowners and develop conservation easements. And then they become the holder. Right. So you convey these rights to that holder. It doesn't have to be a land trust. It can be a governmental entity that could be a federal estate or a county or even a city. But so you've got two parties to that transaction. And in brief, what you're doing over time is preparing the detail in that instrument that's says, look, we are going to convey away certain rights that we have, and we're going to reserve certain rights that we have. And this is going to be recorded like every easement at the courthouse. And so it runs with the land. So you're free to sell the property in the future to anybody or pass it on to your kids. But those restrictions that you put in place, they will remain. And then your counterparty's job is to ensure that those restrictions are monitored and enforced for perpetuity, as we talked about. So that's a, you know, a Very simplistic view, but that is in essence what we're going to. What, what we do. You mentioned compensation and let me explain. When you do one of these, there are several ways you could be compensated. But first you have to determine how much, how much am I going to be compensated? You get an appraisal as a part of this process and the appraiser is going to say, look, here's what your property is worth today, market value before it's restricted. Okay? Then they're going to look at the easement and see how many rights are you giving away, how many you're keeping. And they will offer you, the landowner, a number and says, look, if you convey, if you sign this instrument and convey it, that's worth X. Okay? And that X is the amount of compensation that you are entitled to. Okay, let's say that's worth $900,000. The X I'm talking about here are the ways you might be compensated. One, if you don't receive any cash, if you donate it, so you sign it, you give it to the land Trust, then you would be entitled to an income tax deduction for that $900,000. Okay? Because the IRS, these are approved by the IRS and in fact in some ways the IRS code that provides for these provides a lot of the framework for them. But it's a very handsome income tax deduction. There are rules on you have up to 15 years to use it and how you apply it against your income. But you would receive no, in that scenario, you don't get any cash. But every year when your tax preparer prepares your tax return, you'd be able to take income and not pay taxes on it. Okay. Second one, which is the other end of the continuum is there might be funds to pay you for the seizement for that $900,000 in value. There are several sources that are the prime sources. One, NRCS has a very robust program program that's USDA where they, it's, it's a application based scoring and if you're admitted into it, they will pay a portion of that value. Our state Parks and Wildlife department has a program called the Farm and Ranch Land Conservation Program that's also grant based application ranking and they will grant funds towards that transaction. And then you have some private foundations that really recognize the value of farm and ranch land and they will put dollars in there. From there you can get to some other like US Fish and Wildlife and there are some other players who are not there all the time, but they do have to be able to pay for those sort of things. And then there you get down to. We do have counties that have you probably, probably not the regular up in the Panhandle, but in country there are a lot of counties who will pass bond packages to allocate, you know, tens of millions of dollars towards these. City of San Antonio has, has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on conservation easements over, over time. That comes out of sales taxes.
• 23:07
  Speaker B: That's, that is interesting. Like those will stay in the hands of that owner. But that'll be green spaces, in essence.
• 23:15
  Speaker A: Sure. I mean, it is. And you remain the owner, you're the fee owner, and you do. I mean, San Antonio's program is so big because of aquifer protection. I mean, if, you know the Edwards aquifer down there, it's a rechargeable aquifer, unlike the Ogallala. And so the quality and condition of the landscape where that rainwater goes back into the aquifer is critical.
• 23:40
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 23:40
  Speaker A: So San Antonio has gone way out in the hill country, well beyond San Antonio. Cut a deal with landowners that says, look, you continue to ranch, you have a great time out here, you can hunt your property. We just don't want you building parking lots and dollar generals and all that kind of stuff on top of all aquifer. Yeah, and so. Yeah, that. That's how it works.
• 24:03
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's. So that's interesting. You know, one way I think about, about what we're talking about here is, is how, you know, you describe to somebody mineral rights like you have, you have a bundle of sticks. Right, Is what you say on those property rights. So one of those is your water right in your. You're selling away. All of every right that you have is, is a stick. So now you have like sun and wind rights that some people will sell off. So I mean, as many rights as you can think of. Landowners want to figure out how they can have as many rights as possible. So, yeah, you're just selling off a few of those sticks. And, and you're right to say that this is the reason that this is different than putting it in a will or anything like that is because it's just like if you sold the surface of your land, you wouldn't go back in 10 years or whatever and say, changed my mind, I'll take that back now, because, right, it's sold. So you've just. What you're doing is just selling rights to your property. So do you ever see people.
• 25:18
  Speaker A: Doing.
• 25:18
  Speaker B: Easements to help pay for property?
• 25:21
  Speaker A: Sure. Variety of scenarios. I mean, it's A1. It's an estate planning tool. I mean, we have, we work with will and trust attorneys who are working with families that it's a tool that can be used for estate planning. It can, you know, because of that income tax deduction or if you get a grant from USDA for this money, that's cash that's coming in to your, your bank account. We see families using that cash to help operate the property, to put it in an endowment. Likewise, they can take that money and say, look, the 300 acres we've been wanting to buy over there for, for many years now, we have that money so we can expand our base to do that. I've likewise seen it used by elderly parents pass away. You've got two siblings, one lives in the city, one wants to stay on the ranch, and they have to figure out, how are we going to separate that? And this transaction oftentimes can be a tool for that. I've dealt with siblings that, you know, one doesn't care about the property and one really does, but doesn't have the money without selling the property. To compensate a sibling. This is a technique that would allow you to use cash or tax deduction or some combination of two to compensate that sibling who wants to live in Dallas versus, you know, muleshoe out here.
• 26:53
  Speaker B: On the Texas plains. Water is everything. And there's a resource that's as vital as it is fragile. Our Playa Lakes. These lakes are nature's reservoir, catching rainwater to recharge our aquifer and provide lifelines for wildlife. But now they need our help. In collaboration with the Texas Playa Lakes Conservation Initiative and the Cargill Global Water Challenge, Sarah has started the Our Legacy is Tomorrow's Water initiative to inspire and work with landowners to restore and protect our Playa Lakes. Each Playa we save helps secure a sustainability, sustainable water future for the generations that will be coming after us. Whether it's improving soil health, restoring habitats, or recharging groundwater, we are committed to making a difference. Together, we can build a legacy that we can all be proud of. To learn how you can join in, visit the Playa Lakes Restoration Initiative page on the Sarah website. Let's keep Texas water flowing strong for the future. Visit sarah-conservation.com reasons that people are. I don't use the word afraid, but that might actually be the best word. But dislike have a strong dislike for easements. Not only do they not want an easement on their property, they don't want you to get one on your property either. Where does that come from? Where is the. This whole kind of nuance around that? What are these bad feelings that people have about these? I mean, what are these stories that they've heard or rumors or whatever, or maybe it's some truth to it, like things that they are worried about happening.
• 28:42
  Speaker A: Yeah, let me put those in two different buckets, because I think there are two different answers. One, landowners, which I frequently go out and talk to groups of landowners who, most of them, when they show up, they don't know anything about. They may have heard the word, but they don't.
• 28:59
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 29:00
  Speaker A: There is necessary apprehension that that comes with landowners because one, this is new to them. And while it is not that complex, it's very different.
• 29:11
  Speaker B: Right.
• 29:12
  Speaker A: And so when I start explaining it and they say, whoa, you're talking about a land trust having rights on my property. The whole notion of, like somebody else having rights to my property, there's a necessary tension there.
• 29:27
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 29:27
  Speaker A: And so if I talk to a room full of 50 landowners, I would expect 10 to 15% of them may come away intrigued with this. The others say, well, that was interesting, but that's not for me. And I think that's a, that's a healthy situation because this transaction is not for every family and it's not every individual. And they can sort of make that decision based on good information. So that's why some landowners, when they frequently first come to this, they're like, I don't know. And I'm very comfortable with that because.
• 30:04
  Speaker B: I, you know, it's a. Yeah, it's. I mean, unless it's a term, it's a forever decision, you know, because the difference is, and I guess you could think of a term easement like a 30 year easement. I know Ducks Unlimited had like a perpetual. And a 30 year, I think of a 30 year, more like a mineral lease.
• 30:29
  Speaker A: A term helps some, some people, but I feel like that that scenario is working itself out. People are gathering information, hearing more about it. They're getting curious. Maybe a neighbor did it and they find out more about it. Where those landowners who are suspect, where they. The light really comes on is when they hear from other landowners. Right. Because nobody wants to hear from a lawyer. But when they hear from other landowners who've been been in one for 5, 10, 15 years, they get more comfortable.
• 31:02
  Speaker B: Right.
• 31:03
  Speaker A: Now, the other scenario you asked about, which is kind of a different world, which is, I will say landowners and other groups who are very opposed to the notion of conservation easements, perpetuity, and very suspect of that, I, I Think that's coming from a different source. I don't think that's just genuine landowner. I don't understand it, and I'm a little apprehensive about it. I think there are groups out there who feel strongly that some on good information and some not on good information, there is a good deal of attention, emotion, and in many cases, hysteria out there about these, that somehow it's going to allow either the federal government to take control of large swaths of, of the country or government to do it or put it in the hands of people that are going to start coming to impose these by force. Okay. And, you know, we had the flurry of that up in the Panhandle over Mule Shoe. We, We've seen it before in Texas and, and it's, it's happened in other states too, through the Midwest. The, The Mountain west has had a number of those kind of things. And, you know, the catchphrase is 30 by 30. That, you know, nobody understood it. I didn't understand it. I tried to find out from the federal government. What did that mean? Well, you know, my view is it was somebody's idea of, of. Of a neat thing to have an aspiration to. But, but that has been. It's taken on a life of its own. So I have been places in Texas and talked to good, good folks, explained everything I typically explain. And they look me straight in the eye and say, well, isn't this how the federal government's going to take off, take my groundwater? And I have to tell them that, no, that that's not what's going to happen.
• 33:05
  Speaker B: I liken it too. When the hemp industry came around, I was involved in that. And the people that made money were the people that went around and taught classes about something they didn't know, you know, and, and then if there was ever any kind of controversy, we're gonna make a big deal out of it because you get people scared, you know, and so there was a lot of similarity there. And I think some people made some good money off of. Maybe they made the salary for the year off of, you know, some of that. Some of those meetings and things that, that happened. And it's unfortunate because I hate to see people, you know, manipulated and not, you know, given basic information, no emotions attached. You know, when we attach emotion to information that we give, we are anticipating somebody that's not smart enough to make their own decision.
• 34:15
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's true, and it's unfortunate and you know, when it's put upon busy people. But I have a Little phrase that I tell my law students, I've told my own kids and anybody else that'll listen, and that is everybody you talk to is either selling or they're telling. And it is your responsibility to figure out which is happening. Okay. Because if somebody's telling you something, they're informing you, they're answering your questions, they. They. They don't have an agenda.
• 34:46
  Speaker B: Right.
• 34:46
  Speaker A: But if they're selling you something and.
• 34:50
  Speaker B: Right.
• 34:50
  Speaker A: Oh, wow, you need to think about, you know, if you're under a tent and somebody's up there on the stage and all that, ask yourself, is this person selling or are they telling?
• 35:01
  Speaker B: And that is such a great way to say that. And, boy, and it's so true. And it. It's a very simple, easy thing to add to remember those two words.
• 35:14
  Speaker A: We. We all in farmer, rancher, high school student, or somebody who's 80 years old. It's a daily job. You got to do your homework. You got to answer the questions. You got to be prepared to challenge the things that are being told to you. I mean, that's just a necessary skill. We all think, oh, wow, I wish we'd go back to the old days where everybody was honest. Well, that wasn't the case. Right. That wasn't the case. And so we still have that job to figure out what's right and what's wrong and doing our homework.
• 35:47
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. It reminds me of the musical Music Man.
• 35:52
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 35:52
  Speaker B: Comes.
• 35:52
  Speaker A: Right.
• 35:53
  Speaker B: Comes into town, and, you know, it seems like he's doing everybody a favor. You know, it's.
• 36:00
  Speaker A: I mean, it's always been the case. Mark. Mark, you know, Mark Twain and Huckleberry. Then, you know, you have those characters.
• 36:05
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 36:05
  Speaker A: They're there for a reason.
• 36:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. There's all. They've always been around. Always been around. And it's funny now that, like, as much of snake oil is. It's. The information has become snake oil.
• 36:16
  Speaker A: Yeah, right, right.
• 36:18
  Speaker B: You know, because it's like even selling. You know, I'm selling an agenda. So. Yeah.
• 36:24
  Speaker A: Well, there are those players that all of us, I think we have to admit, we're a little guilty of. We. We've all become accustomed to, like. Well, we can. You know, in the old days, you physically change the channel on the TV to find what you wanted. Now you don't even have to do that. And it's not just the tv. I mean, it's Internet, phone and everything. And we all. We want to watch what we want to watch, and we watch things that make us feel comfortable, and at times, that's not the best strategy. Right. That can lead you to places maybe you don't want to be.
• 36:58
  Speaker B: Yeah. Echo chamber. Yeah, we all get in that where everybody. We're around, nobody's. Nobody's challenging anything that we are thinking. And we don't hear anything that challenges what we want to be true. Yeah, it's so. It's an interesting time we live in. For sure it is.
• 37:19
  Speaker A: But you know, I tell my law students it is. I mean, it's a great time to be a lawyer. And I mean, it can be disconcerting. But at the same time, we've never had a greater need for people who are willing to figure out this complex world that we have and sort it out and convey it to others. You know that that is extremely dire.
• 37:40
  Speaker B: No, it's true. It really is true. And there's a lot of things like that that are happening. My husband and I have a land and mineral management company, so we've got several land men that work for us. But it's new territory. You know, things are changing. They've been changing ever since we've been in the industry. I mean, you know, but I think that we're seeing the rapidness of the change is. Is really just the expanding of the knowledge that we have to be. We just recently went to a critical mining law conference because we. We need that kind of information now. We need to be able to understand those things to help our clients. And so it's. It's good for landowners to be educated and. Do you frequently have conferences or speak or host these informational meetings? Where do you. Where do you speak?
• 38:36
  Speaker A: I do a lot of speaking because I enjoy it. And so we. But our firm doesn't host any. Any of those things. We. We go to invited things. We. We've done a lot with agri life, you know, and those could be one county or multiple county landowner meetings to more statewide meetings. In the. In the ag sphere, frequently go and speak to trade associations in the ag world that like cattle raisers, may have a. A conference that I get invited to go. I'm going down in two weeks to speak on water law to a group of cities. I mean, it's all. All the cities in. In the state are wanting to understand a little bit about what's going on with water law. So you do that. And you know, there are plenty of opportunities out there to go and speak. Doing a webinar Tuesday for landowners way out in West Texas around Valverde county and the Death river, who want to understand a little bit more about conservation easements.
• 39:38
  Speaker B: So, so are you have any, are you doing any work in produced water?
• 39:43
  Speaker A: A little bit, yes. Have been filed a brief in the cactus case for a body and I've followed that very closely.
• 39:52
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 39:53
  Speaker A: And just, just finished a podcast with Tiffany Lashmit on that. On that. So we, we sort of fleshed out a lot of those issues. But boy, as you know, if you're in mineral management, that's a story we're just getting started on.
• 40:09
  Speaker B: Yeah, we have a long ways to go on that. We really do. But we, you know, we are of course we're, you know, an ag community right on the edge of all that water that's being just shoved down into the earth and we're like, God, we, we, we need that water.
• 40:27
  Speaker A: Right.
• 40:28
  Speaker B: We got to figure this out because.
• 40:30
  Speaker A: We know technology has delivered us, you know, some, some, some good opportunities.
• 40:37
  Speaker B: Well, and we know we, we've got, you know, a clean, clean water act where we know what we have to, to what, what clean water looks like.
• 40:45
  Speaker A: Right.
• 40:46
  Speaker B: You know, and so it's not like there's not, you know, some guidelines out there, but even besides, you know, not even drinking water, I mean there's some, just some baseline things that, that could be used for that would be so beneficial. So. I didn't realize that you were a water law person also.
• 41:05
  Speaker A: I do, I love, I love water.
• 41:08
  Speaker B: That is going to be, to me it's going to be more, more valuable than oil at some point.
• 41:13
  Speaker A: I think it already is.
• 41:16
  Speaker B: We've already crossed over. Okay.
• 41:18
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I think so.
• 41:19
  Speaker B: Well, I appreciate your information and being willing to share it with us and.
• 41:25
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 41:25
  Speaker B: And I hope that people will think about it, you know, something that is happening here rather than easements. I visited for, with the third person in like a three county area that's wanting to put part of their farm into research because there's so many changes that are happening now. And so we've got one, one that's already in, in Cochrane county and then one that a guy that is hoping to raise funds for some family land in Terry county and then another one in Lamb.
• 42:05
  Speaker A: Wow, that's wonderful.
• 42:06
  Speaker B: Yeah. So that is something. And I know that like there's been a little bit of struggle, you know, getting, getting those things figured out, you know, so that, that's an area of, you know, how do we, how do we make certain that we've got enough time here if we've got a 10 year? Because these are not, these are ag research. These aren't things that are going to you're gonna do them over a decade, you know, and so how do we, how do we make certain that this continues to move forward and doesn't get stopped after two or three years or seven years when we're, when we need it to go 10, you know, so those are some interesting things, I think, that are happening. I think we'll see more of that, you know, on the high plains because a lot of folks are, you know, they're at that 77 year old, they, they want to leave some kind of legacy behind. And I think that's a great way for them to be able to do that.
• 42:59
  Speaker A: They do. And I mean, we, we have to continue that because the successes that we enjoy now are a product of research that our forefathers did decades ago. And you know, it, it gives us better practices, it enhances technology, lets the private sector assist us because we're all going to have to do more with less in the future. And that research and technology is, is, is what's going to let us do it.
• 43:25
  Speaker B: Yes, exactly, exactly. Well, thanks again, I appreciate it. And before we go, let me ask you who is someone you think our listeners should know about?
• 43:35
  Speaker A: Probably a long list, but you don't have that kind of time. But I will give you the name of Wendell Berry. Oh, I don't know if you're familiar. Yeah, I mean, I, my law class starts in January and the first class is a broad overview of agriculture and all those. And I, you know, I asked them to read a couple of essays from Wendell Berry because, you know, I think he just turned 91 the other day. He did.
• 44:02
  Speaker B: He just had a birthday.
• 44:04
  Speaker A: Yeah, but if you're into agriculture in any element, that's who I would point someone to. And like all good writers, you can take away what you want, want from, from that writer. But he really will, will. He'll test your mind.
• 44:23
  Speaker B: He will, he will, he will. Is it, it's a, I remember, I mean, it's, it's trying to remember the name of the book. Is it? Oh, I can't remember. Anyway, he wrote it like in the late, maybe the late 80s, mid to late 80s, and I have been reading it slowly, but he's predicting things that are going to happen that we are absolutely seeing right now, you know, and it's so, it's so fascinating to me. And you know, he has, he has a center there in Kentucky.
• 45:00
  Speaker A: Right.
• 45:00
  Speaker B: And I have a good friend that lives in that area who knows, that knows him and his family. And I've always been threatening to come up there so I can get his autograph.
• 45:11
  Speaker A: So that, that's my one, one suggestion.
• 45:15
  Speaker B: I love it.
• 45:17
  Speaker A: We. We should all read, you know, 10.
• 45:19
  Speaker B: Pages a week exactly of Wendell Berry.
• 45:23
  Speaker A: We'd be smarter, but we'd probably be happier.
• 45:25
  Speaker B: Yep, yep. He was a. A poor country boy. Brilliant man. Brilliant man. So, anyway, well, thank you again, and friends.
• 45:35
  Speaker A: Great. Nice to join you. Thanks for doing what you're doing.
• 45:38
  Speaker B: Well, we enjoy it. And friends, thanks for joining us again for another episode of Conservation Stories. And we look forward to having you join us back again for the next episode. Thanks.